IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)

3.5L GR-series V6 w/ direct injection. 306 horsepower, 277 torque. Don't make me go back and find the people who said it'd never hit 300 or above.:p

http://www.lexus.com/2006is_preview/index.html?s-ocid=06ISRMPL:0705:TPE:Preview

They still have a lot of info to fill inbetween the lines. But sounds like it's on the winning track.

For those that don't know, the IS250 with only the standard features (still well equipped, including the 'base model' 10-speaker MP3/CD/DVD-Audio pioneer stereo), 10 airbags, vehicle stability control, leather, etc, is expected to be well under 30k sticker price including destination. :bow: (by well I mean as low as 28k, but that hasn't been confirmed yet)

6-speed manual or 6-speed automatic w/ steering wheel paddle shifters

The loaded 350 with navigation, levinson, VDIM, dynamic cruise control, dynamic bixenon lights, etc, etc will be in the high 30s.

The IS is built in the 2006+ GS' chassis for the most part.

Who else is in line?:D

I will once I can afford it.

Maybe by then they'll have the rumored 400 horsepower IS500 released.:)

Lexus is not real big around here. Not a lot of concern.

Lexus is not real big around here. Not a lot of concern.

Yeah I know. They produce a lot of cars that are more comfort/quality oriented than performance-oriented, which doesn't do much for most people.

But this new IS should be an exception. I mean by the specs I see it's pretty much guarenteed to spank the current 3-series, CTS, A4, etc, etc (except for the CTS-V). And while I understand looks are subjective, most people I've talked to who are open to imports (not the type to automatically hate them) say it looks damn good and not conservative at all.:)

The 350 will not have the traditional manual (with a clutch and all)

looks good on paper, with great specs and all, and alot better in silver, but just doesn't jump out at me. The exterior and interior don't look bold to me at all.

Right... the 350 for now will only have the 6-speed paddle shift manumatic. If I had to bet right now from what I know, the IS350 will never come with a 6-speed manual available... only the IS250. However if and when the IS500 comes out that will certainly have a manual.

More pics: http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/galleries/lexusis/pages/01.htm

Nice looking car. I like the new styling direction of the GS and IS.

Here's hoping a GM Kappa sedan comes out like that, with a little less luxury content, mid 200 hp, RWD M6, and in the mid 20s.

The power output should certainly raise the stakes for other manufacturers.

That said, I'll consider a Lexus about the same time I'm picking out my plot at Forest Lawn. Or maybe not. A fast appliance is still an appliance.

The nose looks exactly like a Scion tC

:shrug:

And while I understand looks are subjective, most people I've talked to who are open to imports (not the type to automatically hate them) say it looks damn good and not conservative at all.:)

I am open to imports, and I think it looks just about as boring as every other Lexus product.

Nice looking car. I like the new styling direction of the GS and IS.

Here's hoping a GM Kappa sedan comes out like that, with a little less luxury content, mid 200 hp, RWD M6, and in the mid 20s.


Not realy. Cause they are claiming the IS250, should have all that while being less the $30k.. so The GM Kappa sedan needs to be at least as lux for that price, to really be competative.

:tired:

Another Threxx thread on the virtues of another Japanese appliance-type product. How shocking :blah:

On that note, the new CTS is right around the corner.

The nose looks exactly like a Scion tC

:shrug:

As a matter of fact, the whole car strongly resembles the Scion tC. It doesn't seem to hurt Lexus' image that many of its models appear, at least on the outside, to be little more than rebadged downmarket products. ES330/Camry anyone?

On that note, the new CTS is right around the corner.

And by most insider accounts, the new CTS will be quite stunning. :cool:

Styling wise, it looks very generically Japanese. I'm amazed at how much it looks like the new Acura RL. Specs seem great though. For my money though, I'd still choose the BMW 3 series over this, strictly for the handling and styling factor.

As a matter of fact, the whole car strongly resembles the Scion tC. It doesn't seem to hurt Lexus' image that many of its models appear, at least on the outside, to be little more than rebadged downmarket products. ES330/Camry anyone?

That's because the ES330 is to an extent a rebadged Camry - you get some added benefits and upgrades in the ES for the 12-13% price premium you pay over the Camry (option for option). The IS is related to nothing in the Toyota or Scion lineup at all.

Jason... all most people here talk about is domestics. Sorry for not comforming to the circle jerk. Would you prefer I just add more repetetive banter regarding GM products, of which I'm sure I couldn't add anything original. Everything there is to know about GM that I know I'm sure has already been said here. But since this is the future vehicle forum and not much is said about other brands of cars, I see my input as being added content.

As a matter of fact, the whole car strongly resembles the Scion tC. It doesn't seem to hurt Lexus' image that many of its models appear, at least on the outside, to be little more than rebadged downmarket products. ES330/Camry anyone?

That's because the ES330 is to an extent a rebadged Camry - you get some added benefits and upgrades in the ES for the 12-13% price premium you pay over the Camry (option for option). The IS is related to nothing in the Toyota or Scion lineup at all.

I like the design. Would like to see it in person.

Pretty good specs for the 3.5. Audi has 255HP and BMW somewhere around there. Judging by their record, I don't see german automakers' HP rating climbing past 270 or 280 until the next model revision.

I think sometimes you come across almost as if you are rubbing Toyota's success in our face...that's why some get negative over you posts.

I would like to see Toyota succed if we put the same trade restrictions on them that Japan puts on us. I wonder how much their development budget would suffer is they had to spent $1500 a car on healthcare. Right now GM is fighting an unfair game and everyone knows it...but no one will do anything about it. It is sad to see our legacy industries at the point that they can not compete globally because of domestic pressures.


Jason... all most people here talk about is domestics. Sorry for not comforming to the circle jerk. Would you prefer I just add more repetetive banter regarding GM products, of which I'm sure I couldn't add anything original. Everything there is to know about GM that I know I'm sure has already been said here. But since this is the future vehicle forum and not much is said about other brands of cars, I see my input as being added content.



That's because the ES330 is to an extent a rebadged Camry - you get some added benefits and upgrades in the ES for the 12-13% price premium you pay over the Camry (option for option). The IS is related to nothing in the Toyota or Scion lineup at all.

Jason... all most people here talk about is domestics. Sorry for not comforming to the circle jerk. Would you prefer I just add more repetetive banter regarding GM products, of which I'm sure I couldn't add anything original. Everything there is to know about GM that I know I'm sure has already been said here. But since this is the future vehicle forum and not much is said about other brands of cars, I see my input as being added content.


Maybe if the car were actually interesting, you might recieve some positive feedback. I can't speak for everyone on here, but I am sure I am not the only one who just thinks the car is boring, and isn't trying to turn this into some domestic versus import nonsense, as you seem to be implying. I have never been that impressed with Lexus, and I doubt this car is going to shatter the conceptions many enthusiasts already have on the brand. I have been in the old IS300, and I wasn't that impressed at all. Although I am relatively open to the possibility of the new IS300 being good, I must admit I doubt I will even come close to falling in love with the car, seeing that there has never been one Lexus product that has interested me, virtually ever.

Maybe if you didn't want to conform to the "circle jerk", you would post about a new vehicle or automotive technology that was, you know, exciting. Lexus/Toyota/Scion are percieved as very boring brands, because for the most part, they are. It also seems to be what you post about, almost exclusively. Somone posted recently about the new 6.3L AMG v8, which was pretty badass. That was interesting. Even the new Mercedes Brabus post was pretty interesting. If you had posted about the new Skyline GTR or something else interesting, perhaps you might have gotten the response you always seem to look for here with your Lexus posts.

Just my $.02 on the "circle jerk" going on here.

I think sometimes you come across almost as if you are rubbing Toyota's success in our face...that's why some get negative over you posts.
I guess I can see how some of my posts could be perceived as such and how that would be a sore subject for GM fans

I would like to see Toyota succed if we put the same trade restrictions on them that Japan puts on us. I wonder how much their development budget would suffer is they had to spent $1500 a car on healthcare. Right now GM is fighting an unfair game and everyone knows it...but no one will do anything about it. It is sad to see our legacy industries at the point that they can not compete globally because of domestic pressures.
I understand that and never have, as a result, blamed GM for being unable to market well in Japan. I mean on top of the trade restrictions in force, Japan just doesn't represent that many potential sales to GM regardless, especially for the effort it'd take to market cars to the Japanese (who tend to prefer very small economical cars for the most part of out necessity).
Here on US soil it's a fair game, though. The import brands do have to pay import taxes to an extent and honestly while I don't know the numbers, I can't imagine the numbers being too much worse than GM is paying per vehicle in health care costs. But honestly GM's healthcare policies can't be blamed on much of anyone else but GM and the unions that were developed within GM. Import taxes exercised on foreign car manufacturers is completely out of the control of anyone but Japan's government and our government.

Fair Game? :confused: That's almost laughable! :rolleyes:

We just cant get a break, all of these cars are coming out with insane horsepower numbers, I might have to rush my heads/cam install just to break even lol!!! Just out of curiosity, what was the IS300 rated at horsepower/torque wise?

The car as a package sounds great, but the styling is ugly.

We just cant get a break, all of these cars are coming out with insane horsepower numbers, I might have to rush my heads/cam install just to break even lol!!! Just out of curiosity, what was the IS300 rated at horsepower/torque wise?

Much worse... something like 225 I think... can't remember exactly, and not nearly the torque band either (the IS350 should have a lot of power under the curve for a V6).

The old one was the ol' non-turbo inline six out of the supra. This is a sport version of the V6 used in the new Avalon and such.

Why are people calling this car an "appliance" ? :shrug:
It's a RWD sporty sedan, isn't it?
Now I have had the Euro 6 cyl, the Japanese 4-banger, next step is the American 6/8, right?
Well if I don't get a sports car like I want (well it would only be good for one month a year in vancouver, anyways :rolleyes: ) then a luxo sedan would definetely be on my priority list.

I like Cadillac; a LOT. I think GM is turning around and I feel compelled to give them a chance.
However, if this product is better than the CTS, i might have to cruise over to Lexus and check it out.

BTW just out of sheer curiosity (not being a smart-ass cause I honestly don't know the answer) but what kind of tariffs do the Japanese put on American cars coming in?

I'm sure you won't see a lot of American cars over there, but my friend said the rich ones drive Cadillacs and that they LOVE Coke and American singers, so don't think they are leeching off the stuff we buy from them only. It's a two way trade.

Give me one in Black, V8, AWD, and hybrid :)

Give me one in Black, V8, AWD, and hybrid :)

That's how I feel about the STS

I think sometimes you come across almost as if you are rubbing Toyota's success in our face...that's why some get negative over you posts.

I would like to see Toyota succed if we put the same trade restrictions on them that Japan puts on us. I wonder how much their development budget would suffer is they had to spent $1500 a car on healthcare. Right now GM is fighting an unfair game and everyone knows it...but no one will do anything about it. It is sad to see our legacy industries at the point that they can not compete globally because of domestic pressures.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner. Sorry Brendan, there is no prize :)

Threxx,
You make a valid point about this being an appropriate forum to discuss upcoming vehicles. And indeed, it is interesting to talk about more than just GM products. However, Brendan hit the nail on the head...I feel that a lot of the time, you pump up Lexus/Toyota/Insert Japanese Brand Here, and consistently down domestics.

Or, maybe its the fact you defended the Honda Ridgeline...

I read your original post, and indeed you didn't really brag about it. My apologies for my flip response...it was inappropriate. However, when I tend to read your posts many times the theme is "Toyota is great...GM sucks because my friend's '04 Tahoe lost brakes one time." Its sad I know the year and model of the car, because I've seen you post it so much. Its a free board indeed...but sometimes the general bashing sentiment plays over the actual posts themselves.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner. Sorry Brendan, there is no prize :)

Threxx,
You make a valid point about this being an appropriate forum to discuss upcoming vehicles. And indeed, it is interesting to talk about more than just GM products. However, Brendan hit the nail on the head...I feel that a lot of the time, you pump up Lexus/Toyota/Insert Japanese Brand Here, and consistently down domestics.

Or, maybe its the fact you defended the Honda Ridgeline...

I read your original post, and indeed you didn't really brag about it. My apologies for my flip response...it was inappropriate. However, when I tend to read your posts many times the theme is "Toyota is great...GM sucks because my friend's '04 Tahoe lost brakes one time." Its sad I know the year and model of the car, because I've seen you post it so much. Its a free board indeed...but sometimes the general bashing sentiment plays over the actual posts themselves.

The funny thing is I don't ever recall Threxx saluting the Japanese flag or anything like that. If you talk to him I'm sure he'll let you know pretty quickly how inferior he feels Mitsu, Mazda, etc. can be, even the ones made in Japan.
Toyota/Lexus and in some cases Honda/Acura work their ASSES off to get the quality, reliability, etc. high ranks. Why is it so bad to recognize this? Cause they're foreign? Meanwhile GM sits around on their hands and since their product came from a predominantly American manufacterer, it must be praised?

If Lexus was not around, Cadillacs would be held together with double-sided tape. Competition is the only thing that makes GM thrive for success. The Camaro would have never even made it to a 4th generation if it wasn't for competition.
If everybody HAD to buy a GM car because there as no other alternative, they'd all fall apart in 4 months and there'd be sh!t all you could do about it but either walk or go f*ck yourself.

Now GM is going "sh!t we're losing so much market share to the Japanese, Honda alone killed Oldsmobile, we MUST be doing something wrong!"
Competition is the only reason GM is bringing out some good products, more RWD cars, more of what the public wants, and more quality.

Is it so bad to have a non-GM opinion on this site? Poeple don't like something because it's foreign. My friend said he saw more Camaros in JAPAN then he did Honda Civics.
I'd really hate to miss out on a good car because of brand loyalty. The general is going to get a LOT stronger with competition up on its ass.

Dude, I didn't say any of that. Nice work butchering my post though...I appreciate it :rolleyes:

I have no problem with competition...I do have a problem with people who unfairly praise products that don't deserve it sometimes, merely because they say Toyota on them. Your early posts on here were nothing but scathing distortions of how great Toyota reliability was, and how much GM sucked. Remember?

Same deal here. Like I said, maybe its because he defended the Ridgeline too much, and it left a bad taste in my mouth :) Brendan apparently noticed the same attitude as well, so I don;t think I'm necessarily alone. I even apologized for being crass before!

Whats weird is that it is hard to find factual evidence on the Japanese trade imbalance thing (or I am too lazy to research). The CAW now is using the trade imbalance thing in their negotiations with GM as a way to claim healthcare is not GM's real issue. Even if we did export cars to Japan, I doubt they would buy them. Their auto industry is a souce of national pride to them..much like it once was here. One other thing I read is that the Japanese government propped up thier auto industry, much like the Europeans with Airbus. I am not sure the details, but I remember being taught that in economics. Either way, if anyone can find facts on this and the issues in my posts above, I will gladly listen.

It's not a circle jerk, it's about spouting out against boring product. Chevy and Toyota can (unjustly) get away with boring product because they cost $15k-$30k. However, if I'm going to a dealership to buy a $40k+ Cadillac, Lexus, BMW or MB I don't want it to be borning, I want people to know that I'm driving one, not a Scion or Chevy. I'm a God damn red blooded American - I want bold. The CTS, with all its interior flaws, has it and the IS350 doesn't. At least the IS300 stood out; they nutered the car and this is what happened when it lost its' sex drive.

Regardless of how boring this new Lexus is, I wont play the unfair card because Detroit dug themselves into this hole. Yet now they're trying to save jobs and face and the union will not go along with it. It's a whole pile of crap on both sides. This is the **** that's driving people to buy borning cars like the IS350. Terrible. F. The worst thing is the big two are making cars that are raging successes - the CTS and Mustang come to mind - which are the the epitome of American: big and bold, yet that can not seem to transfer to other cars? The CTS sells three to six times better than the GTO and the interior and power output (sans the $50,000 CTSv) pale in comparison. And don't feed me the fact that GM can only make x amount of GTO's a year - if they could sell 70,000 GTO's at $30,000 a piece they'd figure out a way to do it. How many 500's is Ford selling? Who the heck does these market studies, and who the heck do they study? GM finally puts out a few bold cars that are not Cadillacs - Sky and Solstice - and they're media and public queens. At the same time they give us the Malibu, new Impala and new Monte Carlo which all had, or will have, luke warm receptions at best? I really hope someone can bring out some exciting product across the board, not just in the luxury market, that makes the lower markets follow.

That's my rant for the evening.

I guess I can see how some of my posts could be perceived as such and how that would be a sore subject for GM fans



Here on US soil it's a fair game, though. The import brands do have to pay import taxes to an extent and honestly while I don't know the numbers, I can't imagine the numbers being too much worse than GM is paying per vehicle in health care costs. But honestly GM's healthcare policies can't be blamed on much of anyone else but GM and the unions that were developed within GM. Import taxes exercised on foreign car manufacturers is completely out of the control of anyone but Japan's government and our government.


WHAT???????? Are you KIDDING ME?

Go look at what any GM/Ford/DCX car gets hit with in terms of Tarriffs when shipped to Japan.....or the European Union, for that matter......

There are no import taxes or tarriffs on cars imported into the United States -- see....so there is not a level playing field...period.

The Unions were not developed within GM. Did they get out of control? You betcha! Was there ever a time when they deserved to be formed? Mebbe. Are they still unrealistic? I can't comment on that. (I have my opinions tho!) Did GM (and Ford and DCX) cave to their demands? Yup.....go look to the late spring and summer of 1998 to see what they did to GM......but that's several volumes that I could write........

Further, part of the health care crisis....is our Litigious society....and that is one of the biggest, in my opinion, reasons for spiraling heath care costs. Don't believe me? Ask a Doctor in the state of Pennsylvania, for instance, what happened to the cost of his or her malpractice insurance in the past year alone! Drug companies? Sued every day for causing side effects with drugs that have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands...if not millions......


Yup.....I'm prejudiced.......but facts are facts.

As to the "jerk" thing.........this site IS called "CamaroZ28.com".....so mebbe that's why not everyone agrees with your view on foreign cars.


Now.....my opinion? You don't have to buy a GM car or truck. If you don't buy GM, as an American, I think you should buy Ford or DCX. Otherwise, don't complain as the economy sputters.....and our trade imbalance continues to spin wildly out of control. (Alan Greenspan has got to be having nightmares........)

Flame away, all!

Another thing....(and by the way......these are my personal opinions and in no way should be construed as the opinions of the company I work for...)

Before someone blurts out "oh yeah? well, what about Aveos???"....let me address just a few points on that.

GM/Ford/DCX cannot build a car in this country for the price point of the Aveo.....for many many reasons. Simply cannot be done without losing a ton of money. What do you do in order to penetrate that 'entry level' market?

Further, GM/Ford/DCX, in trying to continue to be world producers of cars and trucks must invest in other companies for many, many reasons -- and one very good reason is to get the distribution channel in other countries. The United States and Canada are not the only Automobile battle grounds my friends.......there's the rest of the world.

Am I personally happy that we import Aveos? No.....but I also understand why it has to be done.

WHAT???????? Are you KIDDING ME?

Go look at what any GM/Ford/DCX car gets hit with in terms of Tarriffs when shipped to Japan.....or the European Union, for that matter......

There are no import taxes or tarriffs on cars imported into the United States -- see....so there is not a level playing field...period.

The Unions were not developed within GM. Did they get out of control? You betcha! Was there ever a time when they deserved to be formed? Mebbe. Are they still unrealistic? I can't comment on that. (I have my opinions tho!) Did GM (and Ford and DCX) cave to their demands? Yup.....go look to the late spring and summer of 1998 to see what they did to GM......but that's several volumes that I could write........

Further, part of the health care crisis....is our Litigious society....and that is one of the biggest, in my opinion, reasons for spiraling heath care costs. Don't believe me? Ask a Doctor in the state of Pennsylvania, for instance, what happened to the cost of his or her malpractice insurance in the past year alone! Drug companies? Sued every day for causing side effects with drugs that have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands...if not millions......


Yup.....I'm prejudiced.......but facts are facts.

As to the "jerk" thing.........this site IS called "CamaroZ28.com".....so mebbe that's why not everyone agrees with your view on foreign cars.


Now.....my opinion? You don't have to buy a GM car or truck. If you don't buy GM, as an American, I think you should buy Ford or DCX. Otherwise, don't complain as the economy sputters.....and our trade imbalance continues to spin wildly out of control. (Alan Greenspan has got to be having nightmares........)

Flame away, all!

Woah, reread what I wrote. I said that on US soil it was fair game. Cars imported to the US are charged tarrifs and import taxes by our government unless I've been horribly misled all these years.

I didn't say anything about any other countries except Japan, where I said it's definitely not a level playing field and easily understandable why GM can't get a foot in the door there.

I'm not surprised that it's a circle jerk going on in here, either... not blaming anyone for it. I just said don't get agitated with me just because I choose not to join it. What good is one more load blown into the pile of repeated information compared to fresh info... whether or not y'all consider it to be a boring car or not (it's not like other boring non-Toyota cars aren't discussed here all the time without a big uproar like this)

Woah, reread what I wrote. I said that on US soil it was fair game. Cars imported to the US are charged tarrifs and import taxes by our government unless I've been horribly misled all these years.

)


Yes, my point is that evidently you've been terribly misled. There are tarriffs on trucks, but not on cars....and the tarriffs on trucks coming into this country are no where near what the tarriffs are when a U.S. built truck OR CAR is shipped to the European Union.....or worse, in Japan.

Woah, reread what I wrote. I said that on US soil it was fair game. Cars imported to the US are charged tarrifs and import taxes by our government unless I've been horribly misled all these years.

I didn't say anything about any other countries except Japan, where I said it's definitely not a level playing field and easily understandable why GM can't get a foot in the door there.

I'm not surprised that it's a circle jerk going on in here, either... not blaming anyone for it. I just said don't get agitated with me just because I choose not to join it. What good is one more load blown into the pile of repeated information compared to fresh info... whether or not y'all consider it to be a boring car or not (it's not like other boring non-Toyota cars aren't discussed here all the time without a big uproar like this)
Do you ever get off the Toyota/Lexus bandwagon? ghat damn boy... that crap is getting soo old.

We dont have a circle jerk going on here. Never have had one.

This "lexus is God"(might as well be what you are saying ALL the time) thing is getting old.

Back on topic, Those are great power numbers from the 3.5. It seems as if the 3.5 V-6's are the modern smallbock battlefields. Almost every company has an entry and their all competing and we are winning. When does the lexus go on sale? Heres the 3.5s or similar that I now off the top of my head.

Nissan 3.5 250-300hp debuted in 2002 max with 255hp

Acura 3.2?? 270hp

BMW 3.3 255hp

GM 3.6 HF 255hp

Toyota Avalon 3.5 280hp

MB 3.5 280hp

DCX 3.5 255hp

And now the lexus pulls this, nice.

BTW I read where theres a 300hp GM HF under development. Any truth?

Your early posts on here were nothing but scathing distortions of how great Toyota reliability was, and how much GM sucked. Remember?


Not really. I never said GM was unreliable. Ever. The Lesabre went to an easy 170,000 miles and got itself a female owner, which is instant death to any car. ;)

I have no problem with competition...I do have a problem with people who unfairly praise products that don't deserve it sometimes, merely because they say Toyota on them.

Remember I want to sell my car when I get a better job and pick up a Caddy or a 'Vette. I don't want to own something that is worth less than I owe on it when the time comes that I want to sell the damn thing.
What did GM have in my price range? When I got the car, they had the Cobalt. I was unfamiliar with it but the Cobalt SS wasn't going to be a good choice for me, because I don't like buying brand new cars in their first model year. I would have had more selection but GM did their employee discount pricing 2 months AFTER I bought my car.
Otherwise you never know, I could be driving a Grand Prix GT or a G6, maybe a CTS (haha I wish)
And being a hardworking company, what makes you think Toyota doesn't deserve recognition?
They're selling off their names reputation for reliability, build quality and resale value. GM is selling on discounts, low finance rates and cash back incentives.

Do you ever get off the Toyota/Lexus bandwagon? ghat damn boy... that crap is getting soo old.

We dont have a circle jerk going on here. Never have had one.

This "lexus is God"(might as well be what you are saying ALL the time) thing is getting old.

Lexus is getting better with making high performance with well defined character and styling while Caddy is getting better in terms of long-term durability and build quality.

Competition is a beautiful thing.

I just talk about the 'other' side of things because nobody else really does.

Lexus is getting better with making high performance with well defined character and styling while Caddy is getting better in terms of long-term durability and build quality.

Competition is a beautiful thing.

I just talk about the 'other' side of things because nobody else really does.

If a new Chevy/Pontiac/Buick came out with a new 300hp v8, RWD or AWD car with SMG that was well put together and even moderately attractive it would be hailed as the second coming. :rolleyes:

While you do hump the toyos alot I do see where you are coming from. How many times can we say we talk about what gm needs to do, too much of which they arent.

There are tarriffs on trucks, but not on cars....

I have to imagine this is really the big reason we see Tundras, Tacomas, Titans, etc. being built over here. It's a wonderful angle to be able to say "look, we Japanese provide jobs to Americans aren't we swell" while the true motivation is to quite obviously make those trucks even more profitable by skirting the tarriffs. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, continue, I don't want to add to the "circle" on CamaroZ28.com. :usa:

See... this is what I mean. I post a simple damn post about a cool new car coming to market that I'm really interested in. And admittedly it's a Toyota product which I do post about more often than any other brand, but predictably I get a bunch of grumpy ol' GM boys starting off with "oh it's nothing but a bland as hell 300 horsepower RWD appliance" (OK I understand a camry and such being an appliance, but how does this car continue to be such? just because it'll probably be reliable?), and then eventually moving on to just flat out attacking me for always being the one to post Lexus/Toyota Honda/Acura stuff. I'm not trying to say I'm innocent and y'all are not. I'm a big fan of their stuff. I'm just saying don't try to pretend y'all aren't having a big circle jerk of your own - especially if you get pissed at me for not joining.

I have to imagine this is really the big reason we see Tundras, Tacomas, Titans, etc. being built over here. It's a wonderful angle to be able to say "look, we Japanese provide jobs to Americans aren't we swell" while the true motivation is to quite obviously make those trucks even more profitable by skirting the tarriffs. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, continue, I don't want to add to the "circle" on CamaroZ28.com. :usa:

Another major reason might be the fact that they probably don't sell those models anywhere but here in the US or North America at the most.

And I hate to break it to you, but the LARGE majority of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan cars (not just trucks) that are sold in the US are built in the US.

Heck... the Accord and Camry, two of the best sellers out there, have been built domestically for 20 years now. I checked the part content sticker on my friend's 05 Acura TL the other day (built in Marysville Ohio) and it was only 20% Japanese. How much more can you really expect?

I like the styling of the out-going IS300 better. This new one looks like an Acura with a different front end. It seems they went from a European looking IS back to a Japanese look. Not sure if they decided they can't make a better 3-series than BMW, so they will fight the other Japanese manufactures instead.

See... this is what I mean. I post a simple damn post about a cool new car coming to market

The problem is the car is not cool. The engine is cool, the car is borning.

Edit - is the wood in the interior real or fake?

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-12992-259234-5016/IS_5.jpg

I absolutely love the look of this car, inside and now. . . sits nice and low too. No big GM gaps.

I'd love to buy this car, too. Problem is, it'll probably price out in the upper $30's, right in the same price range as an SRT-8 LX car. While the Lexus is rumored to run a 13.7 1/4 mile (right in line w/ the published 0-60 of 5.6 s), the very low 13s/high 12 SRT-8 would be much more preferred. . . not to mention the huge interior.
:-)

Mike

GM/Ford/DCX cannot build a car in this country for the price point of the Aveo.....for many many reasons. Simply cannot be done without losing a ton of money. What do you do in order to penetrate that 'entry level' market?




.... and the sad reality of the matter is.... How long till that trickles down from "entry level Aveos" to cars like Cobalt... then Malibu... then Impala.... then pretty much everything.

I sure don't see anything stopping that from happening over the long haul the way things are going. :(

Now.....my opinion? You don't have to buy a GM car or truck. If you don't buy GM, as an American, I think you should buy Ford or DCX

DCX is still American owned :confused: ???

Someone makes a post about a Lexus and people freak out in here. Too funny!

DCX is still American owned :confused: ???

Someone makes a post about a Lexus and people freak out in here. Too funny!


I don't think that is what happened at all.

This thread was posted about a Lexus (nothing wrong with that)... a lot of people find it boring looking (nothing wrong with that either)... you know, just like how a lot of the very same people have called the new GTO, Impala and/or Malibu boring looking .... but because these people dare to call the import boring looking... everyone is biased. :think: :rolleyes:

Nope, I am not commenting about people not liking the car which is fine, but more on how certain people freak out about foreign cars in general. I guess it keeps the entertainment value here though.

The problem is the car is not cool. The engine is cool, the car is borning.

Edit - is the wood in the interior real or fake?

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-12992-259234-5016/IS_5.jpg

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't real wood. There is not a single Lexus model on the market right now that has even an ounce of fake wood in it. Even the entry-level ES330.

I've had a couple people tell me the wood in my car is fake, but I've seen the back side of it (at least on the center console) and seen pictures of the back side of it on the doors from others on the CL.com message board, and it's definitely real wood. Yamaha (the piano division) actually makes the wood trim used in the center console (http://www.threxx.com/car/DSC00523.JPG) of my car.

DCX is still American owned :confused: ???

Yeah... I thought about that when RedPlanet mentioned it but didn't want to take even more of a tangent.

Even more ironic is that earlier somebody mentioned the Japanese government helping out its car companies financially. Anyone recall not too awfully many years ago when the government did the same for Chrysler? Now look what good it has done us.;)

Everybody who likes GM and Toyota should go buy one of these used:

http://www.autovida.com/archives/toyotacavi.jpg
http://www.autovida.com/archives/morecavi.jpg

Those big Chrysler LX cars wouldn't handle as well though.

Looks like a sweet engine stuck in a painfully boring wrapper. I'd rather have the old IS300 than the new one, and turbo it.

Not really. I never said GM was unreliable. Ever.

Do you REALLY believe that boldfaced LIE you just spewed? I will go back tonight, and I will do a search of your posts from the last 6 months. I will PROVE to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you DEFINITELY wrote that very phrase. You claimed you bought your beloved XRS because "American cars suck, dealers suck and the cars fall apart." I will find it...I will quote you. Guaranteed.

I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.

Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.

I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.

Collectively, as a nation we're too stupid to see what we're doing. But hey, enjoy your new Lexus, Threxx :rolleyes:

DCX is still American owned :confused: ???

Someone makes a post about a Lexus and people freak out in here. Too funny!

Yeah, of course you'd find it funny...you're one of those that don't get it, and find it funny others do. Go figure.

Threxx, you'll notice I never put down the new IS. Heck, it surely looks like a winner. I think it's wrong to jump down people's throats for finding the styling to be a little bland. That's all. I'm certainly hoping this forces Cadillac to further pump up the power in the HF 3.6 for the new CTS.

I checked the part content sticker on my friend's 05 Acura TL the other day (built in Marysville Ohio) and it was only 20% Japanese. How much more can you really expect?

Now, I'm not going to get into the continuous erosion of American pride in this thread, like Jason did in a previous post because I think there are political forces at play as well as social attitudes...it pretty much disgusts me...but I do laugh at this comment. I mean, I guess I can't expect much less than 1 out of every 5 parts on a Honda to be made in Japan. It is, after all, a Japanese company....

Threxx, you'll notice I never put down the new IS. Heck, it surely looks like a winner. I think it's wrong to jump down people's throats for finding the styling to be a little bland. That's all. I'm certainly hoping this forces Cadillac to further pump up the power in the HF 3.6 for the new CTS.

Now, I'm not going to get into the continuous erosion of American pride in this thread, like Jason did in a previous post because I think there are political forces at play as well as social attitudes...it pretty much disgusts me...but I do laugh at this comment. I mean, I guess I can't expect much less than 1 out of every 5 parts on a Honda to be made in Japan. It is, after all, a Japanese company....

The current generation Accord/TL was primarily engineered in the US, primarily part-sourced in the US, built in the US, marketed in the US, sold in the US, maintained in the US, etc, etc. That's more than you can say about a whole lot of "domestic" vehicles.

Yet, if somebody buys any car witha GM badge on it (even those built, sourced, and some even styled and engineered in other countries) primarily outside the US, they are almost always applauded as being "American". Then somebody buys a TL and a bunch of idiots seem about ready to get out the pitchforks.

I'm just giving an example that it's no longer a black and white issue. With the IS350 it is because it's engineered, designed, engineered, and sourced entirely in Japan as far as I know... but that's not always the case, either.

The current generation Accord/TL was primarily engineered in the US, primarily part-sourced in the US, built in the US, marketed in the US, sold in the US, maintained in the US, etc, etc. That's more than you can say about a whole lot of "domestic" vehicles.

Yet, if somebody buys any car witha GM badge on it (even those built, sourced, and some even styled and engineered in other countries) primarily outside the US, they are almost always applauded as being "American". Then somebody buys a TL and a bunch of idiots seem about ready to get out the pitchforks.

I'm just giving an example that it's no longer a black and white issue. With the IS350 it is because it's engineered, designed, engineered, and sourced entirely in Japan as far as I know... but that's not always the case, either.


A fair point...

I suppose it is possible that there is an import branded car out there that is more "american" in parts and engineering and marketing, etc etc etc... than a particular domestic branded car.... not sure if there is or not, but I'll concede that point for the sake of arguement.

However, those models are few and far between in the overall picture of things.

So.......... even if you buy that "more American than he" import car... you are still funding a company that, overall, does less for the U.S. economy than a domestic manufacturer....

So how about the Toyota Cavalier that was sold in other markets? Were those sales benefiting Toyota or GM more? Or how about the current Chevy Forester being sold in India?

-B

I love it.

One major gripe: the lack of 6spd manual on the IS350. The paddle shifted 6spd auto is a decent alternative though.

I love it.

One major gripe: the lack of 6spd manual on the IS350. The paddle shifted 6spd auto is a decent alternative though.

I agree that the lack of the 6MT on the IS350 is disappointing. Like how much harder could it have been? I'd assume they could have used the same trans since the two motors are identical in layout... although maybe require an upgraded clutch and such. I dunno.

I guess the only way it might make some sense to me is if they come out with the IS500. I guess in that case they can assume that most of the people who would have insisted on a 6MT in the IS350 would be willing to move up to the IS500 anyway for the added performance and whatnot?

The current generation Accord/TL was primarily engineered in the US, primarily part-sourced in the US, built in the US, marketed in the US, sold in the US, maintained in the US, etc, etc. That's more than you can say about a whole lot of "domestic" vehicles.

Yet, if somebody buys any car witha GM badge on it (even those built, sourced, and some even styled and engineered in other countries) primarily outside the US, they are almost always applauded as being "American". Then somebody buys a TL and a bunch of idiots seem about ready to get out the pitchforks.

I'm just giving an example that it's no longer a black and white issue. With the IS350 it is because it's engineered, designed, engineered, and sourced entirely in Japan as far as I know... but that's not always the case, either.

Quick question for you: Where does the end profit go to? To which nation does it benefit? As a so-called "idiot with a pitchfork," apparently I have the answer to that. The AVERAGE GM car is 83% domestic content, according to RP. The average Toyota is 40-45%, I believe.

Any questions?

Quick question for you: Where does the end profit go to? To which nation does it benefit?

For the amount that is not reinvested right back into US operations (which is probably very little), I would say it all goes to Japan and then to its stockholders (of whom I'd bet more are American than are Japanese... although I don't know for sure, just a guess based on our sheer population compared to theirs)

And yes, I have a question, can you tell me what percentage of GM vehicles sold in the United States are build in the United States (not just North America), and how many Nissan, Toyota, and Honda vehicles sold in the United States are built in the United States?

Do you REALLY believe that boldfaced LIE you just spewed? I will go back tonight, and I will do a search of your posts from the last 6 months. I will PROVE to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you DEFINITELY wrote that very phrase. You claimed you bought your beloved XRS because "American cars suck, dealers suck and the cars fall apart." I will find it...I will quote you. Guaranteed.

I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.

Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.

I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.

Collectively, as a nation we're too stupid to see what we're doing. But hey, enjoy your new Lexus, Threxx :rolleyes:
Jason, I'm with you 99%. The only part, I would not agree with, is your example of a blatant lyer, IMHO considering the facts, michael moore would have made a much more accurate discription! ;) So other than that I'm right there with Ya! Especially on that last part. :bow:

Threxx,

I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out. So, in your assessment, because we get a bunch of $15/hr manufacturing jobs in non-union states, its ok to let a foreign owned company get your business, and for the domestic one to fall to ****? One where hundreds of thousands of white collar jobs and supplier jobs are supported? No offense, but gee...doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

I understand there's manufacturing jobs to be had, but there's a helluva lot more at stake than just assembly line jobs.

Threxx, lets be elementary here...

GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?

As a so-called "idiot with a pitchfork," apparently I have the answer to that.

Yes, "idiots" are apparently what we are. It's just like those who want you to believe that all who voted for GWB are all cavemen with IQ's below 30. But I digress....

I'm not sure what the shareholders makeup is, but I know a Japanese gentleman is the CEO....uh wait, here is the (what looks like current) Toyota board. I don't see too many American names on here. :think: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/0623.html

I believe Nike designs and stitches together most of their shoes in China. Does that make Nike a Chinese company?

This is an argument that will go around and around until the end of time. But the evidence shows that it's foolhearty to believe that the Japanese "Big 3" invest a comparable amount of money back into this country as our "Big 3" do...Red Planet posted all the facts a while back, Honda for instance hasn't come close to investing the same amount of money in America since 1980 as GM has in the last 10 years...you will never convince me that these companies are doing us any favors when GM and Ford announce yet another round of layoffs in my hometown. :rolleyes:

Sorry, that's just the way I feel. Now if you'll excuse me I need to drag my knuckles back into the cave and start dinner with these here two sticks and campfire wood. :lol:

Threxx, lets be elementary here...

GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?
It doesn't get much simpler than that! :bow: Well put! :thumb: :usa:

Threxx, lets be elementary here...

GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?

I'm well aware of which would hurt the United States more. But that alone is not reason enough for me to buy a car I don't like.

I'm not contesting that buying a big 2 product helps that US more than buying a foreign product, but I'm just saying it's not as bad as y'all act like it is... y'all act like buying domestic 100% of the money stays in the US and buying foreign 100% of the money goes to japan. Not true at all... there are many many ways that 'foreign' car money stays in the states and many many ways that 'domestic' car money doesn't. Overall, yes, domestic car purchases keep a significant amount more money in the states, I conceed that. But when I prefer the product from Japan over the one from the US, it's just not enough of a difference for me to buy a product I feel is inferior just so that a higher percentage of my money stays in the US.

Like I said... the economy is no longer black and white, foreign and domestic... it's shades of gray inbetween. And that's why the domestic manufacturers are progressively outsourcing more and more of their part content, engineering, and manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world, and why the rest of the world is progressively moving more jobs into our country. It's becoming a global economy. So how does GM continue to compete in a global economy? They become a global company. Something that they haven't done such a good job of. They tried to make up for it by buying some european companies, as did the other 2... the other 2 also bought japanese companies. But they just haven't worked out that well.

Oh, god, do we have to do this again for the fingers-in-ears, la-la-la, slow-learner crowd?

Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota

Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion

Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%

Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs

All per RP. Please cut and paste this and keep it handy for the people who don't want to admit that buying Japanese is NOT the same as buying American, no matter where the cars are made.

Maybe if you didn't want to conform to the "circle jerk", you would post about a new vehicle or automotive technology that was, you know, exciting. Lexus/Toyota/Scion are percieved as very boring brands, because for the most part, they are. It also seems to be what you post about, almost exclusively. Somone posted recently about the new 6.3L AMG v8, which was pretty badass. That was interesting. Even the new Mercedes Brabus post was pretty interesting. If you had posted about the new Skyline GTR or something else interesting, perhaps you might have gotten the response you always seem to look for here with your Lexus posts.



You're at the wrong board. Might want to check out some sites for exotic.

If everyone applied your criteria we would hardly have any posts. Not to mention nothing from GM outside of Cadillac, Corvette, and Solstice.

Sad thing is, it is just to expensive to make anything in this country. Companies like Toyota can make cars and parts in this country profitably for few reasons-

1. They don't have any unions to deal with at US factories. That allows them to do things like keep wages slightly lower and make employees buy their meds at a pharmacy at the factory that is run by the company (lets see the UAW agree to that). I am not sure hoe much employees at Toyota plants pay for healthcare...but I am sure it is not 0% like the UAW.

2. They don't have the healthcare overhead US companies hold. Even if it costs $700 a car to assemble and build parts in the US compared to overseas, it is still less than GM pays in healthcare on every car.

Just thoughts....

It's a wonderful angle to be able to say "look, we Japanese provide jobs to Americans aren't we swell" while the true motivation is to quite obviously make those trucks even more profitable by skirting the tarriffs. :rolleyes:



I would be very impressed if any corporation worked on honour and not profit. Given the choice, it is only wise to do what they are doing. You could say that GM bought Daewoo not to consider itself more "asian", but to actually build cars at maximum profit and get into the asian market.

So what is the big deal? Business is business. Corporations use the provisions granted to them by governments. They do what works. And kudos to them for that.

Do you REALLY believe that boldfaced LIE you just spewed? I will go back tonight, and I will do a search of your posts from the last 6 months. I will PROVE to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you DEFINITELY wrote that very phrase. You claimed you bought your beloved XRS because "American cars suck, dealers suck and the cars fall apart." I will find it...I will quote you. Guaranteed.

I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.

Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.

I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.


1.) Squeaks and rattles and falling apart has nothing to do with reliability.
2.) "Imports" gaining more market share brings MORE jobs in. The Camry is the best selling car in the U.S right? Waitaminute, the Camry is made by a *gasp* JAPANESE company!!! :eek:
Oh noes!!!!
So it seems that Toyota sells the best selling car in the US right? Either that means Americans are all dumb, or Toyota makes good products.
3.) Why don't you want to buy from a company owned by Germans? Doesn't Ford OWN Mazda, but mazda still sells in Japan? In an ironic twist, don't that mean that Mazda's profit kicks back to this continent?
Or GM that owns a lot of Subaru does that stop people from buying Subarus in Japan?

If it makes you feel "patriotic" go drive your "American" car, which was built in Canada by the French. The squeaks and rattles just be the car humming the star spangled banner. :p
The V8 c an take you home in a hurry so you can watch TV on your Japanese big screen. :D

BTW as I said before, Japan buys into a lot of American things like movies/music, baseball, Coke, McDonald's, etc.
Don't think it's a one way street.

I'm well aware of which would hurt the United States more. But that alone is not reason enough for me to buy a car I don't like.

I'm not contesting that buying a big 2 product helps that US more than buying a foreign product, but I'm just saying it's not as bad as y'all act like it is... y'all act like buying domestic 100% of the money stays in the US and buying foreign 100% of the money goes to japan. Not true at all... there are many many ways that 'foreign' car money stays in the states and many many ways that 'domestic' car money doesn't. Overall, yes, domestic car purchases keep a significant amount more money in the states, I conceed that. But when I prefer the product from Japan over the one from the US, it's just not enough of a difference for me to buy a product I feel is inferior just so that a higher percentage of my money stays in the US.

Like I said... the economy is no longer black and white, foreign and domestic... it's shades of gray inbetween. And that's why the domestic manufacturers are progressively outsourcing more and more of their part content, engineering, and manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world, and why the rest of the world is progressively moving more jobs into our country. It's becoming a global economy. So how does GM continue to compete in a global economy? They become a global company. Something that they haven't done such a good job of. They tried to make up for it by buying some european companies, as did the other 2... the other 2 also bought japanese companies. But they just haven't worked out that well.

I like domestic vehicles and I typically don't agree with Threxx. BUT, I do agree with his statement here. We are migrating to a more "Global" economy and it's either Jump on, or Jump off. I buy Chevy because 1) I still like their products over Imports and 2) I get employee discount through my father... ;).


Oh, god, do we have to do this again for the fingers-in-ears, la-la-la, slow-learner crowd?

Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota

Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion

Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%

Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs


This data is Common Sense Obvious. Toyota is a FOREIGN company, I don't think anybody expects them to have the numbers that GM does. That'd be like going to Germany and seeing if GM has better numbers then Mercedes...???

IF ANYTHING - that data shows that Toyota contributes more then alot of us thought... Something to think about: 41% DC and I don't care who you are 10.7 Billion Capitol investment in a LIFETIME is still something to write home about... The company I work for has been around 30 years (In Germany) and I doubt we're even close to 10.7 Billion Capitol investment Worldwide! let alone Germany. (Industrial Filtration Company ~ 50 Million Sales yearly).

He didn't say it was the same as buying American, but we all HAVE to agree that it is a grey area. C'mon now, this isn't the late 1800's. Wake up people.

Yes, "idiots" are apparently what we are. It's just like those who want you to believe that all who voted for GWB are all cavemen with IQ's below 30. But I digress....

I'm not sure what the shareholders makeup is, but I know a Japanese gentleman is the CEO....uh wait, here is the (what looks like current) Toyota board. I don't see too many American names on here. :think: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/0623.html

I believe Nike designs and stitches together most of their shoes in China. Does that make Nike a Chinese company?

This is an argument that will go around and around until the end of time. But the evidence shows that it's foolhearty to believe that the Japanese "Big 3" invest a comparable amount of money back into this country as our "Big 3" do...Red Planet posted all the facts a while back, Honda for instance hasn't come close to investing the same amount of money in America since 1980 as GM has in the last 10 years...you will never convince me that these companies are doing us any favors when GM and Ford announce yet another round of layoffs in my hometown. :rolleyes:

Sorry, that's just the way I feel. Now if you'll excuse me I need to drag my knuckles back into the cave and start dinner with these here two sticks and campfire wood. :lol:
Another one....Well Put! Agreed 100%! :thumb: :usa:

If it makes you feel "patriotic" go drive your "American" car, which was built in Canada by the French. The squeaks and rattles just be the car humming the star spangled banner. :p
The V8 c an take you home in a hurry so you can watch TV on your Japanese big screen. :D



I don't normally resort to vulgarity, but yeah smart a**, I DO feel patriotic driving my American car built in Canada. So there.

And I have news for you. I WOULD BUY AN AMERICAN BIG SCREEN, BUT WE DON'T MAKE THEM ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So while we can still drive CARS THAT ARE MADE BY AMERICAN COMPANIES, I WILL.

(Sorry for Caps abuse, but I feel like I'm talking to redzed here)

And actually, my Z28 and my Grand Prix do not squeak, and do not rattle not one. See, I didn't even have to go looking for your bias in an old post...its right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for saving me the time. Nice job on the big screen comment. You fed right into my argument. Hope you have a good job that doesn't get cut someday because of cheap labor somewhere else :)

Some people just don't get it. GM isn't going overseas to build cars because they want to screw Americans out of jobs. They do it because it is the only way they can compete in segments with cars that toyota and honda can make two or three times the profit that GM can. The reason that toyota and honda can make two to three times the profit? Because they have been making cars overseas for a lot cheaper for years. Now GM has to go overseas to be competitive. If there was not an unfair trade, and GM could make somewhat equal profits on cars that cost the same to manufacture as the imports, they might not be building cars overseas.

If GM spends X amount of dollars to make a car in the US, and toyota can make a car that competes with the GM car for less money because they used cheap materials and labor, and then both cars have to be priced in the same range to compete; GM would obviously like to go overseas to build the car for cheaper so they can COMPETE. If they don't then what happens is that GM has to find ways to get the price down some other way. That would explain the cheap interiors and big body gaps that everyone complains about. And when toyota knows that they can make the car with a higher profit margin they can invest some of that profit in better interior plastics and whatever else matters to you new car buyers that like your dash to feel soft. (I've never rubbed my truck or Camaro's dash and wished it was made of a softer plastic.) Maybe it's because I really do hate all imports for being imports, but I would almost be willing to go as far as to blame the loss of jobs within GM and Ford on the imports directly. Anytime GM outsources a job to korea because it is cheaper to pay someone there to do it, it's because the imports have been making a killing that way for years. Why wouldn't GM do it too?

I know I'm being ridiculous here, but people who praise the imports for being built here in the US are stretching a little bit to say that it is the same or close to the same since a lot of domestics are not built in the US anymore. So because the import brands have forced domestics to go elsewhere to find cheap land, labor, and steel to equal the edge that the imports use to get a leg up, it should be OK to support these imports so they can force more jobs overseas?

See... this is what I mean. I post a simple damn post about a cool new car coming to market that I'm really interested in. And admittedly it's a Toyota product which I do post about more often than any other brand, but predictably I get a bunch of grumpy ol' GM boys starting off with "oh it's nothing but a bland as hell 300 horsepower RWD appliance" (OK I understand a camry and such being an appliance, but how does this car continue to be such? just because it'll probably be reliable?), and then eventually moving on to just flat out attacking me for always being the one to post Lexus/Toyota Honda/Acura stuff. I'm not trying to say I'm innocent and y'all are not. I'm a big fan of their stuff. I'm just saying don't try to pretend y'all aren't having a big circle jerk of your own - especially if you get pissed at me for not joining.



Another major reason might be the fact that they probably don't sell those models anywhere but here in the US or North America at the most.

And I hate to break it to you, but the LARGE majority of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan cars (not just trucks) that are sold in the US are built in the US.

Heck... the Accord and Camry, two of the best sellers out there, have been built domestically for 20 years now. I checked the part content sticker on my friend's 05 Acura TL the other day (built in Marysville Ohio) and it was only 20% Japanese. How much more can you really expect?


:thumb:

Thanks for saving me the time. Nice job on the big screen comment. You fed right into my argument. Hope you have a good job that doesn't get cut someday because of cheap labor somewhere else :)

Yeah, I wonder what those guys who had nice jobs assembling TVs for RCA are doing these days. It's the disturbing trend in America...we demand things cheaper, cheaper, cheaper....no matter who provides it for us. Me? I'm willing to pay a little more for something I know was assembled by my neighbor than a guy working half way around the globe. Manufacturing is the cornerstone of our country, it is what we are built on. It really is sad that people don't care much anymore.

You obviously have the right to buy what you want, that's also a principle this country was built on. But I think you're doing everyone, including yourself, a huge disservice by not even considering a domestic product. If it wasn't for some of these completely idiotic auto journalists (don't get me started on the Detroit News' Leinerts) who keep feeding the stereotypes, I think many people would see from a quality and refinement standpoint a GM, Ford, or even Chrysler offers a fine level of quality and refinement comparable to just about anything anyone else offers in a particular segment for the money.

There are no import taxes or tarriffs on cars imported into the United States -- see....so there is not a level playing field...period.


I'm pretty sure there are tariffs on cars - 2.5%, I believe. Not much, granted, but its something. I just had this conversation with an OEM customer who's based in Europe.

I will say that I'll be a lot more interested in Lexus when Toyota starts assembling them in the United States. I'll also say that the IS350 looks to be a heck of a sedan. A preference for domestically-built product and admiration for foreign vehicles don't necessarily have to be mutually-exclusive things.

I don't care about the engine, but at least they changed the styling. The old version was 100% riceboy deluxe.

Yeah, I wonder what those guys who had nice jobs assembling TVs for RCA are doing these days. It's the disturbing trend in America...we demand things cheaper, cheaper, cheaper....no matter who provides it for us. Me? I'm willing to pay a little more for something I know was assembled by my neighbor than a guy working half way around the globe. Manufacturing is the cornerstone of our country, it is what we are built on. It really is sad that people don't care much anymore.

You obviously have the right to buy what you want, that's also a principle this country was built on. But I think you're doing everyone, including yourself, a huge disservice by not even considering a domestic product. If it wasn't for some of these completely idiotic auto journalists (don't get me started on the Detroit News' Leinerts) who keep feeding the stereotypes, I think many people would see from a quality and refinement standpoint a GM, Ford, or even Chrysler offers a fine level of quality and refinement comparable to just about anything anyone else offers in a particular segment for the money.

Well said :thumb: :usa:


-Mike

I don't care about the engine, but at least they changed the styling. The old version was 100% riceboy deluxe.

I agree. A lot of people here have been saying they preferred the old look, but to be honest the old IS300 was by far my least favorite looking Lexus model. It didn't even look like it belonged in the same lineup as the rest of the Lexus models, and did look a bit ricey. Then again the Toyota version of that car that was sold in Japan was called the "Altezza" and was, to my knowledge, the cause of the entire altezza tail light fad that all the rideboys took after. Before then I never saw such a thing as Altezzas.

You're at the wrong board. Might want to check out some sites for exotic.

If everyone applied your criteria we would hardly have any posts. Not to mention nothing from GM outside of Cadillac, Corvette, and Solstice.

Yeah, maybe your right, but this thread has started to get interesting now. At least more interesting than the Lexus (my opinion of course.)

Yeah, I wonder what those guys who had nice jobs assembling TVs for RCA are doing these days. It's the disturbing trend in America...we demand things cheaper, cheaper, cheaper....no matter who provides it for us. Me? I'm willing to pay a little more for something I know was assembled by my neighbor than a guy working half way around the globe. Manufacturing is the cornerstone of our country, it is what we are built on. It really is sad that people don't care much anymore.

You obviously have the right to buy what you want, that's also a principle this country was built on. But I think you're doing everyone, including yourself, a huge disservice by not even considering a domestic product. If it wasn't for some of these completely idiotic auto journalists (don't get me started on the Detroit News' Leinerts) who keep feeding the stereotypes, I think many people would see from a quality and refinement standpoint a GM, Ford, or even Chrysler offers a fine level of quality and refinement comparable to just about anything anyone else offers in a particular segment for the money.

I'm a 25 year old kid from New England, aka Import Central (outside of SoCal). There are 8 credit analysts in my office at the bank. We're all around the same age. They drive:

-'04 Accord EX
-'05 Accord EX
-'04 Mazda 6
-'98 Diamante
-'99 Escort
-'02 Infiniti I35
-'02 Protege
-'01 Grand Prix and '97 Camaro (gee, don't I stand out :rolleyes: )

These people, as a group, couldn't care less about where their car is made or where the company resides. All of us analyze commercial credit requests, some for MANUFACTURING JOBS (of what little is left in New England). Virtually all of these companies are struggling. And yet, it doesn't even dawn on this group of people that buying American might make more sense.

My generation really couldn't care less. We think Scions with blowers are cool :rolleyes: Clearly, we're screwed...then again, keep in mind who I am. I went out of my way 2 years ago when I got my first apartment to buy an American made microwave. And indeed, while Sharp is not an American company (name one microwave that is), the microwave was built in NC :D I paid $20 more than a comparable Chinese made one, and I couldn't care less that I paid more. Maybe I'm the crazy one...

Seems like that is the trend with white collar jobs. Our guys on the floor (and guys who are too grizzled to be in a while collar job, but are - like me) all drive Ford, Dodge or Chevy trucks, but managment drives mostly imports with a spackle of Corvettes, Cobras and Cadillacs though and the usual domestic SUVs. GM hasn't made a lot of good, lower priced cars to buy though, so I can't blame the people, they get paid to be good with money.

I think the previous generation Grand Prix was phenomenal with respect to its then-market participants...this one? Yeah, I'll conceed with what you said about some entrants not being so great :(

But, I wonder when the new Impala comes out, how many would even SHOP a Chevy dealer vs. going and buying the usual Camry or Accord. That's the issue. My boss at work also drives an '05 Accord EX. She knows I sell on Saturdays, and as the previous owner of a '91 GP and a '95 GA, I expected she'd probably ask to swing by and see a new G6 (I'm not going to solicit sales from my own boss!). What did she do? Drove straight to the local Honda dealer and drove out in a new Accord. She didn't even LOOK at anything else. When I asked her how she liked it, she said "How could I not? Everyone loves their Hondas." :mad:

Ignorance is bliss. For her, for the way she drives and for what she got, I cannot see ONE tangible advantage to the Accord over a G6. And yet, she didn't even bother to look. Indeed, you are correct about the white collar thing...its bad. Real bad. My father (a VP/CFO of a local paper mill, and a CPA) has a Sunset Orange Formula that, on the rare occassion he drives it to work, sits between Hondas, 3 series and Mercedes. Yeah, he feels a little out of place, but ask him if he really cares :D

I think Jason is correct. The younger generation for the most part, only cares about themselves. Obviously there are exceptions, but that has been my opinion for quit some time now. As long as they can justify what they are doing, to themselves that's all that matters. Manufacturing WAS the backbone of this country! Especially manufacturing automobiles, and what represents Freedom, more than cars....American Cars. OK, Harley's too. Another company who's helped us defeat our enemies in our time of need. Who in the Hell is gonna do that, if that need ever arises again, and these companies are gone? People aren't thinking about that.....Or again, they just don't give a damn, about the strength of this country, or anything else! This is why I have a big problem with the so-called journalists today, they have helped ppl rationalize thier decisions, to not buy American, among other things. I think they have been misled. And they believe anything they are told, without any facts to back it up. Jimbo, says, "Are all Americans dumb"? To that I would say, Not ALL Americans buy yotas... Not that the ones that do are dumb, maybe just misled.

younger generation? how about all generations... just look at the people that buy stuff from walmart, target, etc..

People have been burned before by domestic products.. and now are too comfortable with the imports, so they stick with them.. My parents for the first 20 years, bought domesic cars. some okay ( a remember white Ford station wagon was pretty reliable), some not so good.. Their first car, a Vega.. that they occasionally still laugh about, but it barely soldiered thru its life, an olds, and some Eagle? stationwagon).. and a scary one.. a Ford Escort.. lol. my mom nicknamed that the tiny tank, cause it drove and sounded horrible (think my uncle bought it new when he at this country for a year, then gave it to us when he moved back). and maybe a few other cars I don't remember.

So now they dislike domestic cars.. and only buy Toyota Camry's.. They've been better than the rest for at least the first 100k miles. It rubbed off on my sister too.. although, she is considering the new Caddy CTS or STS as her next car.

Welll, anyways, sorta back to the original topic.. I'm going to try to convince my parents on getting a IS250 to replace their aging ES300. They are old now, and even getting them to consider another Toyota car besides the Camry is hard enough, let alone leave to another brand... let alone a domestic one.

younger generation? how about all generations... just look at the people that buy stuff from walmart, target, etc..
Definitely. Started with the baby boomers.

Definitely. Started with the baby boomers.
That is probably more accurate......All generations! Starting with the baby boomers. I could agree with that. Getting them back won't be easy, that's for damn sure. I think it needs to be done though. I have been trying to spread around some of the facts Red posted, but I doubt that alone will work! I would love to know more about the school taxes, but don't know how to find the info? I know the slimes are making an attempt at redemption, but I highly doubt the auto-journalists will be forced into it as well. They have been attemping to rob the country from under us, and many of us are oblivious to it.

BTW as I said before, Japan buys into a lot of American things like movies/music, baseball, Coke, McDonald's, etc.
Don't think it's a one way street.


Uhmmmmmmmmmm..........have you looked at our trade deficit with Japan lately.........

How 'bout doing some research for everyone......look at the trade deficit for each of the past twenty years......and then tell us it's a two way street......

well ...this thread has certainly been all over the place!

I'll give you my thoughts......

I have about 8 national chain Drug Stores within 4 miles of my home. ....and one Pharmacy called "Merrit Woods" that's open 364 days a year. Yup, the prices are a little higher at Merrit Woods.........BUT.....it's locally owned.....and they'll deliver prescriptions to me if need be. The help is friendly......and they support the local school and local charities. I've never waited more than perhaps 2 minutes to check out......(I finally stormed out of a national chain one evening when I'd waited for 15 minutes and STILL hadn't gotten thru the checkout line......6 cash registers....one very slow clerk with an attitude)........
Now......I COULD save a few bucks by going to the chains.......and I could save a few more bucks by getting my prescriptions via mail......but I look at it this way......if I leave.....and a bunch of others leave...pretty soon, Merritt Woods won't be there............one.....I won't have someone to deliver a prescription if, perhaps, I were to fall ill. (I'm single....) Further, I'm quite certain that the chains aren't going to do for the schools what Merritt Woods does...........

It comes down to "what's good for my country.....and the people in it?" Yes, we're in a world economy.....but we're in uncharted territory.......with trade deficits and the value of the dollar. (thank you, China..)

Maybe I'm old school......and maybe I'm PROUDLY wrapping myself in the American Flag.............

I do believe in free trade........but I'm quite certain we don't have that with many countries........

Two last thoughts............ever notice who the world turns to when it comes to protecting freedom? Ever notice who pays the bills? Where do you suppose that money's supposed to come from?

And........when the economy tanks in your community because jobs left town.....think about what I just posted.

well ...this thread has certainly been all over the place!

I'll give you my thoughts......

I have about 8 national chain Drug Stores within 4 miles of my home. ....and one Pharmacy called "Merrit Woods" that's open 364 days a year. Yup, the prices are a little higher at Merrit Woods.........BUT.....it's locally owned.....and they'll deliver prescriptions to me if need be. The help is friendly......and they support the local school and local charities. I've never waited more than perhaps 2 minutes to check out......(I finally stormed out of a national chain one evening when I'd waited for 15 minutes and STILL hadn't gotten thru the checkout line......6 cash registers....one very slow clerk with an attitude)........
Now......I COULD save a few bucks by going to the chains.......and I could save a few more bucks by getting my prescriptions via mail......but I look at it this way......if I leave.....and a bunch of others leave...pretty soon, Merritt Woods won't be there............one.....I won't have someone to deliver a prescription if, perhaps, I were to fall ill. (I'm single....) Further, I'm quite certain that the chains aren't going to do for the schools what Merritt Woods does...........

It comes down to "what's good for my country.....and the people in it?" Yes, we're in a world economy.....but we're in uncharted territory.......with trade deficits and the value of the dollar. (thank you, China..)

Maybe I'm old school......and maybe I'm PROUDLY wrapping myself in the American Flag.............

I do believe in free trade........but I'm quite certain we don't have that with many countries........

Two last thoughts............ever notice who the world turns to when it comes to protecting freedom? Ever notice who pays the bills? Where do you suppose that money's supposed to come from?

And........when the economy tanks in your community because jobs left town.....think about what I just posted.

:usa: And thats all I have to say.

Uhmmmmmmmmmm..........have you looked at our trade deficit with Japan lately.........

How 'bout doing some research for everyone......look at the trade deficit for each of the past twenty years......and then tell us it's a two way street......

And then compare the sheer size and population of our country compared to theirs and realize that it's quite a bit easier for us to consume more of their products than it would be for them to consume ours, especially when our auto industry (understandably due to the cost of reworking all their cars to the small potential number of sales) doesn't even really try to market themselves in their country.

well ...this thread has certainly been all over the place!

I'll give you my thoughts......

I have about 8 national chain Drug Stores within 4 miles of my home. ....and one Pharmacy called "Merrit Woods" that's open 364 days a year. Yup, the prices are a little higher at Merrit Woods.........BUT.....it's locally owned.....and they'll deliver prescriptions to me if need be. The help is friendly......and they support the local school and local charities. I've never waited more than perhaps 2 minutes to check out......(I finally stormed out of a national chain one evening when I'd waited for 15 minutes and STILL hadn't gotten thru the checkout line......6 cash registers....one very slow clerk with an attitude)........
Now......I COULD save a few bucks by going to the chains.......and I could save a few more bucks by getting my prescriptions via mail......but I look at it this way......if I leave.....and a bunch of others leave...pretty soon, Merritt Woods won't be there............one.....I won't have someone to deliver a prescription if, perhaps, I were to fall ill. (I'm single....) Further, I'm quite certain that the chains aren't going to do for the schools what Merritt Woods does...........

It comes down to "what's good for my country.....and the people in it?" Yes, we're in a world economy.....but we're in uncharted territory.......with trade deficits and the value of the dollar. (thank you, China..)

Maybe I'm old school......and maybe I'm PROUDLY wrapping myself in the American Flag.............

I do believe in free trade........but I'm quite certain we don't have that with many countries........

Two last thoughts............ever notice who the world turns to when it comes to protecting freedom? Ever notice who pays the bills? Where do you suppose that money's supposed to come from?

And........when the economy tanks in your community because jobs left town.....think about what I just posted.
I couldn't agree more, with everything you said! :bow: :bow: I don't think there's anything wrong with being Old school at all, and would bet alot more of us here agree with you, than those who do not. I don't know when it became a bad thing to be proud to be American. :usa: I guess I mist that boat! Thank God! I just hope before its too late, Americans pull thier heads from the sand, and realize how they are hurting this country. Out Of Site, Out of Mind! :rolleyes:

Oh, on a side note! My good friend was stopped at a light, on his way to work, in his 90 lexus is4-something, when a box truck didn't see the light, and just plowed right over him. There was rubber marks across the hood, the only thing left was his seat, but that damn thing folded like a tin can, he's lucky to be alive right now. Someone was definately watching over him that day for sure. Its a damn good thing he didn't have the baby in the back, the cops were, actually freaking when they saw the car seat in the back. I wonder what kind of steel they used on that JUNK! Everyone who see's the pics can't bieleve he got out alive. I was telling another buddy about it! He told me, yeah all that Junk is made cheap. He tells me a lady hit the side of his 69 Camaro, with a benz, which wrecked the whole side of the benz, and when I asked if he got the Camaro fixed....He said no, and showed me the tiniest little scratch! You can barely even see it! He just got the lexus too,(He didn't buy it new, he got a good deal on it from his boss, who knew he needed a car to drive). He got plenty of ribbing too when he brought that POS over. I'll have to see if I can get some pics on here, if anyone else still has them. My computer took a dump, I just got a new one, and all the pics are on there. The kicker is, he drives the exact same kind of box truck for a living, and told me, he used to see that guy every morning on his way to work.

.

Two things:
-Nobody in this entire thread has ever said it was a bad thing to be proud to be a US citizen. They simply said that these days buying a japanese car is not nearly as anti-american as you people keep insinuating it is, and buying a 'domestic' car is certainly not always as 'american' as you keep insinuating, either.

It's a gray area.

-And it's just one of many factors to consider when purchasing a new car. Buying a car that you don't like simply because it's a "domestic car company" is dumb in my personal opinion. But if you like the vehicle/price better in the first place, or if it's a close comparison, then sure, go for the domestic brand, no doubt about it.

And about the SC400... those cars are nothing but Toyota Supras Luxo'd out. I would expect them to be too much safer than a 15 year old Corvette, Camaro, or Mustang, really. But in case you don't understand this concept in the laws of physics: the force of impact is the rate of deceleration, which is the impact distributed over time.

Thus why a car that crumples up all the way up to but not quite including the occupants is going to have a much less severe impact than a car who just bounces off whatever it just hit. You're much more likely to be injured if your car doesn't crumple properly. Then again it's a catch 22, because if the car crumples too much, then you can be killed in that manner as well.

I just get tired of hearing people saying "this car looked like a crushed tin can while the other one hardly had a scratch!". News flash... unless both cars and the manner in which they impacted yields roughly the same tendancy to crumple, then one car is going to 'give way' quite a bit more than the other. Unfortunately for the driver of the crumpling car, his car's crumpling just made the wreck quite a bit less severe for both vehicles... not just his. So he just incurred quite a bit more damage not only for his sake, but for the other driver's sake. But that's just life... I guess at a time like that you want to save as many lives as you can.

Two things:
-Nobody in this entire thread has ever said it was a bad thing to be proud to be a US citizen. They simply said that these days buying a japanese car is not nearly as anti-american as you people keep insinuating it is, and buying a 'domestic' car is certainly not always as 'american' as you keep insinuating, either.

It's a gray area.




I have to agree with you that it has become more "gray"... but it's a very pale gray.

I still think there is a very big difference. It might no be so absolute as it once was, but it's still a huge difference.

I have to agree with you that it has become more "gray"... but it's a very pale gray.

I still think there is a very big difference. It might no be so absolute as it once was, but it's still a huge difference.
Exactly, its pale grey at best!

Now we're arguing about the shade of grey used in a saying.

I can't keep doing this.:lol:

Now we're arguing about the shade of grey used in a saying.

I can't keep doing this.:lol:


Well, the point being...

You are basically saying there are no "absolutes"... and you are probably right.

However, just because things may have changed a little bit... that certainly doesn't make things "equal".

And then compare the sheer size and population of our country compared to theirs and realize that it's quite a bit easier for us to consume more of their products than it would be for them to consume ours, especially when our auto industry (understandably due to the cost of reworking all their cars to the small potential number of sales) doesn't even really try to market themselves in their country.

I do have to agree with this.

I don't think Trade Deficits are as much of a problem as Labor Costs. High Labor costs in the US make our exports more expense so yes we're going to have a Trade Deficit.

Manufacturing jobs tend to move to areas where there are Low Labor Costs. Now that China has actually made their currency Variable (somewhat) if it rises - I expect to see next an Industrial Revolution in Africa.

The real question is what do we do about it?

1) Impose Tariffs based on the difference in Labor Costs (might be good).

2) Wait it out and hope we still have manufacuring after everybody is "Industrialized".

3) Close our doors to the world and act as a self-sufficient country. (This actually has some good points to it. All you would have to do is put OUTRAGOUS Tarrifs so noone could afford foreign goods. Then we have to produce /everything/ that we want. The US is not a country without resources, there is not much that we can't mine/create/produce here.)

But again, - I don't know what the answer is. Hopefully someone will figure it out sometime soon!

well ...this thread has certainly been all over the place!

I'll give you my thoughts......

I have about 8 national chain Drug Stores within 4 miles of my home. ....and one Pharmacy called "Merrit Woods" that's open 364 days a year. Yup, the prices are a little higher at Merrit Woods.........BUT.....it's locally owned.....and they'll deliver prescriptions to me if need be. The help is friendly......and they support the local school and local charities. I've never waited more than perhaps 2 minutes to check out......(I finally stormed out of a national chain one evening when I'd waited for 15 minutes and STILL hadn't gotten thru the checkout line......6 cash registers....one very slow clerk with an attitude)........
Now......I COULD save a few bucks by going to the chains.......and I could save a few more bucks by getting my prescriptions via mail......but I look at it this way......if I leave.....and a bunch of others leave...pretty soon, Merritt Woods won't be there............one.....I won't have someone to deliver a prescription if, perhaps, I were to fall ill. (I'm single....) Further, I'm quite certain that the chains aren't going to do for the schools what Merritt Woods does...........

So you're worried that the "chains aren't going to do for the schools what Merritt Woods does...."

Well, the odds are that those heavily unionized public school employees (teachers, janitors, etc.) and retirees all buy their prescriptions at high priced "Merritt Woods" because they have full and overly generous prescription benefits and don't really car how much their overpriced pharmaceuticals cost the taxpayers.

In the end, all of those dreaded "mail-in" pharmacies save society (i.e. taxpayers and consumers) money.

[QUOTE=Red Planet]It comes down to "what's good for my country.....and the people in it?" Yes, we're in a world economy.....but we're in uncharted territory.......with trade deficits and the value of the dollar. (thank you, China..)

Sure, blame China. In reality, you should thank China for providing the labor for America's consumer economy. The Chinese have discovered a fundimentally efficient economic model - more blatantly "capitalist" than any democracy.

Red Planet, I doubt that you seriously understand currency markets or monetary policy. More to the point, I doubt that you can comprehend the real forces at work behind the revaluation of the Yuan.

I somehow doubt that you'll be happy with the results if the Yuan is ever allowed to freely float in the world's currency markets.


Maybe I'm old school......and maybe I'm PROUDLY wrapping myself in the American Flag.............

Sadly, plenty of rubbish has also been "wrapped in the American Flag" for very cynical commercial purposes.


I do believe in free trade........but I'm quite certain we don't have that with many countries........

Oddly enough, plenty of American companies have actually benefited from unfair trade policies. Would you argue that GM's Chinese joint venture hasn't benefited from China's restrictive automotive import policies.


Two last thoughts............ever notice who the world turns to when it comes to protecting freedom? Ever notice who pays the bills? Where do you suppose that money's supposed to come from?

As always, the money is going to come from the consumers. Personally, I can't think of a single tax on business that isn't ultimately passed on to consumers.


And........when the economy tanks in your community because jobs left town.....think about what I just posted.

Sorry, that happened in my hometown before I was ever born. Do I mourn for "The Death of American Industry?" Let's put it this way, I'm doing pretty well in the here and the now.

Maybe the post-Industrial future isn't something to be afraid of.

Red Planet, I doubt that you serious understand currency markets or monetary policy. More to the point, I doubt that you can comprehend the real forces at work behind the revaluation of the Yuan.Gee, nothing like insulting the intelligence of one of the most respected members of the board.

What a clown. If you want to make an assumption, you might say something like, "I wonder if you understand..." or "do you understand..." in a questioning manner. But, in true redzed fashion, you state that you think he is INCAPABLE of understanding. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, we are so privileged to have such a powerful mind posting in our midst. Let us not forget just how intelligent the great and powerful redzed is, and pay homage to him by not questioning his posts anymore...

As for fearing a post-industrial society, that is a whole different discussion. But I sure hope we never get to the point where we lose all knowledge, skill, capacity, and resources to MAKE stuff. Imagine if WWII happened and we were a "post-industrial" society. Would have been a bit tougher to build all those tanks, fighters, bombers, and munitions...

I'm sure we could buy all that stuff from China though, right?

LAME.

Redzed actually makes some good points... (wow did I say that... ;))

We're in a changing era and yes we are going to lose some Industry. Will we lose it all, NO - anyone that thinks every industrial job is going to China needs to get out of their hole and look around.

The United States is/was the country everybody was cussing 20-30 years ago because WE were the China of the world at the time. Did Europe dry up and DIE because we were the Industrial Powerhouse... NO.

One thing that has been true of all time is that the Human Race adapts. It's how we react to this change which will make us or break us.

As China's currency rises (and it probably will some) - expect our low cost goods that most of us buy here to rise in cost as well. There is a lot bigger picture to look at here then "Made in the USA."

Think about it; Foreign companies capitolized on the USA because we were the Industrial Powerhouse. Now it is our turn to capitolize on Foreign markets as they increase in size. This is actually good for us all.

Of coarse we could Tax the crap out of China, and in turn they will Tax the crap out of us. So then we have to build our own TV's which will cost 5 times as much and now we've closed any avenues to Export = DEPRESSION.

Look at China and these emerging "Industrial Powerhouses" as an opportunity for us to expand our global efforts, not as an end to the American Economy."

So back to orginial post......

Let me get this straight I can have a fully loaded IS250, not 350, for ~4k less then a full equiped Charger RT or a IS350 for about the same price as a Charger SRT8? Sure the Charger doesn't have the manual, and I do like the styling, but I will take the Charger over the IS cars, plus it is a full size car.

Gee, nothing like insulting the intelligence of one of the most respected members of the board.

What a clown. If you want to make an assumption, you might say something like, "I wonder if you understand..." or "do you understand..." in a questioning manner. But, in true redzed fashion, you state that you think he is INCAPABLE of understanding. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, we are so privileged to have such a powerful mind posting in our midst. Let us not forget just how intelligent the great and powerful redzed is, and pay homage to him by not questioning his posts anymore...

Do you understand currency markets or monetary policy?

As for fearing a post-industrial society, that is a whole different discussion. But I sure hope we never get to the point where we lose all knowledge, skill, capacity, and resources to MAKE stuff. Imagine if WWII happened and we were a "post-industrial" society. Would have been a bit tougher to build all those tanks, fighters, bombers, and munitions...

I'm sure we could buy all that stuff from China though, right?

LAME.

A defense scenario involving a massive industrial mobilization has been unlikely since 1945 and impossible since 1975.

Do you understand currency markets or monetary policy?Once again, avoiding the discussion at hand. What does that have to do with your claim that Red Planet (or anyone, for that matter) is incapable of understanding? But, for the record, I do not consider myself well versed on global economics and currency issues. Also for the record, that has jack squat to do with my post, which you glazed right over as usual.A defense scenario involving a massive industrial mobilization has been unlikely since 1945 and impossible since 1975.Oh, well ok then. :blah:

So back to orginial post......

Let me get this straight I can have a fully loaded IS250, not 350, for ~4k less then a full equiped Charger RT or a IS350 for about the same price as a Charger SRT8? Sure the Charger doesn't have the manual, and I do like the styling, but I will take the Charger over the IS cars, plus it is a full size car.

Currently expected prices are 28,000 + destination for the IS250 (which will come relatively well equipped including leather, xenon lights, 10 airbags, 10-speaker AM/FM/MP3/MP3 player/XM/SACD/DVD-A system, dual auto climate control, heated seats, vehicle stability control, etc. The AWD IS250 will be around 2500 more and will also go to a 6-speed auto (no manual available for the AWD)

The IS350 last I heard will start at about 34,000 + destination and will add a few features including VDIM (ridiculously advanced stability control that damn near makes wrecking a car impossible short of aiming for a tree... and even then it'll apply the brakes, tighten the seatbelts, and prep the airbags once it determines collision is unavoidable), 6-speed auto standard. Once you upgrade it with everything like Mark Levinson sound, navigation w/ reverse camera, dynamic laser cruise control, precollision detection system, heated/cooled/ventilated seats, dynamic/adaptive lighting system w/ bi-xenon lights (highbeams upgraded to xenon instead of just low beams), and so on (I'm sure I'm forgetting something), the price should still be comfortably under 40k.

FWIW guys, to keep this thread from continuing on the extreme tangent it has been going on for like 3/4 of the thread, I created a thread in the lounge about the potential for a post industrialized US economy, and put my thoughts in there. Let me know what you think, but post in there if you don't mind. It'd make for a good discussion I think.
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385513

Currently expected prices are 28,000 + destination for the IS250 (which will come relatively well equipped including leather, xenon lights, 10 airbags, 10-speaker AM/FM/MP3/MP3 player/XM/SACD/DVD-A system, dual auto climate control, heated seats, vehicle stability control, etc. The AWD IS250 will be around 2500 more and will also go to a 6-speed auto (no manual available for the AWD)

It sounds like the perfect car for an 80 year old who currently drives a Mercedes C240. For the rest of us, there's the Infiniti G35.

The IS350 last I heard will start at about 34,000 + destination and will add a few features including VDIM (ridiculously advanced stability control that damn near makes wrecking a car impossible short of aiming for a tree... and even then it'll apply the brakes, tighten the seatbelts, and prep the airbags once it determines collision is unavoidable), 6-speed auto standard. Once you upgrade it with everything like Mark Levinson sound, navigation w/ reverse camera, dynamic laser cruise control, precollision detection system, heated/cooled/ventilated seats, dynamic/adaptive lighting system w/ bi-xenon lights (highbeams upgraded to xenon instead of just low beams), and so on (I'm sure I'm forgetting something), the price should still be comfortably under 40k.

Yes, you're "forgetting something." Toyota botched the Lexus IS (again!) by undersizing it. The Infiniti G35 demonstrated that a successful 3-series competitor could actually have a comfortable rear seat. Did Lexus pay attention. NO!

The sad part is that Lexus could have built a 3-series slayer, but a lack of forward thinking means the IS250/IS350 is another Japanese also-ran.

People who need a near-luxury sedan in the next few months are well advised to choose the Infiniti G35. If you can wait, the upcoming BMW 1-series will be the small sports sedan to watch.

I was reading the new Issue of Motor Trend today at work, the one with the Charger and the Mustang on the front cover reenacting the "Bullit" chase scene...
Anyway they were talking about GM's future with people writing in. One guy said something along the lines of "The employee health care is partially to blame for GM's troubles but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they build cars nobody w ants to drive."
Another wrote in saying that if GM cars lasted more than 18 months he'd consider one. Another talking about if GM actually got their act together that they wouldn't need to have tremendous sales to move their rotting inventory.
These were people in proud, All-American states. Hell any time I see Texas plates up in Canada it's on a Honda accord or a Lexus. Very rarely are they an American car.

As for people bickering about how Toyota takes sales away from GM...
Let's p ut it this way. If somebody wants to buy a Toyota, they will, right?
Toyota could build their car in Japan, take more profit, and that be that.
ORRRR
Toyota can GIVE jobs to Americans and help the economy. It wouldn't make a difference to their sales where they're built unless it's Mexico in which case the quality would decrease.

I promise the business of my next car to GM as long as they can keep up with the competition. If Cadillac can build an entry-level car that battles the 3-series, IS Lexus, C-class, etc. then I promise Caddy I'll buy their CTS or whatever, as long as it's just as good if not better.

It sounds like the perfect car for an 80 year old who currently drives a Mercedes C240. For the rest of us, there's the Infiniti G35.
The IS350 will blow the current-gen G35 away hands-down, I'm quite positive of it if they reach anything near their projected sales, which they did and more for the new GS.


Yes, you're "forgetting something." Toyota botched the Lexus IS (again!) by undersizing it. The Infiniti G35 demonstrated that a successful 3-series competitor could actually have a comfortable rear seat. Did Lexus pay attention. NO!
Uh... you really need to research your facts before opening your mouth. The new IS will, based on rough HxLxW cubic exterior dimensions, be about 1.5% larger than the 3-series, and is, by the same calculations, only 3.5% smaller than the G35 sedan. Considering that bigger is not always better in the sports sedan market... I don't see how that would make or break this car?:lol:

I'm also interested to know when you checked out the rear seat of the IS to determine it was not comfortable? And if for some odd reason Lexus said "let's make our rear seat uncomfortable because we think that's a good thing", would that truely make or break sales? I thought there might be other factors in mix as to whether the car is a success or not? Crazy me.;)

The sad part is that Lexus could have built a 3-series slayer, but a lack of forward thinking means the IS250/IS350 is another Japanese also-ran.
Most of the reviews I've read to date say that other than electronic stability controls that won't let you go crazy with sliding around the road and such when you want to, this car could very well be exactly what Lexus needed to seriously compete with the 3-series.

If Lexus hits their sales projections (and they've been very accurate with them and if anything underguessing them with their last three all new models), they will well more than double the G35 sedan's sales figures and even with the coupe added in for the G35's total, they will have it beat by 50% or so. Still won't quite be in 3-series territory, but that's what a benchmark is all about. You can't get there immediately.

Beyond that, considering all there is to BMW's $30-40k entry level is the 3-series and nothing else... I imagine that at the very least, the combined sales of the ES330/ES350 and the IS250/IS350 will far surpass BMW's sales figures.

People who need a near-luxury sedan in the next few months are well advised to choose the Infiniti G35. If you can wait, the upcoming BMW 1-series will be the small sports sedan to watch.
You're "well-advising" them? You!? I'm sorry man, but you're a nutcase. I have no problem arguing about the facts and then drawing conclusions based on those. But you seem to love to make conclusions without presenting a single damn fact, or if you do present them, it's something completely trivial and inconsequential to the big picture.:lol:

Sorry, that happened in my hometown before I was ever born. Do I mourn for "The Death of American Industry?" Let's put it this way, I'm doing pretty well in the here and the now.

.

Yes, actually I do understand Currency markets and Monetary policy............

and your last line, at least to me, speaks volumes.

It seems...correctly if I'm wrong.....that because you're doing OK...then everything's OK?

Sorry....it's a free country and we're free to make our own decisions....and I guess you and I will agree to disagree on many things.......buying foreign cars (note I didn't say 'import') as one of them...............

Still waiting for those credit cards and bank statements from the other post, by the way.

Let's finish this argument up with a final post; if GM didn't make inferior contenders in today's market, there would be no need to consider foreign cars to get what one desires.
Cadillac makes a car that's outdated, so one buys a Lexus. Then 10 "proud Americans" jump down the throats of said Lexus owner, "Why didn't you buy American?!"

The best selling car in America is from a Japanese brand. What does that tell you? Here's what it says to me; instead of concentrating on patriotism, rebates and low interest rates, GM should focus their time on actually making a good f*cking car that people will buy, even withOUT employee discount pricing! :alert:

You're "well-advising" them? You!? I'm sorry man, but you're a nutcase. I have no problem arguing about the facts and then drawing conclusions based on those. But you seem to love to make conclusions without presenting a single damn fact, or if you do present them, it's something completely trivial and inconsequential to the big picture.:lol:

I am sure his advice is going to make or break so many deals for either Nissan or Toyota.

Lexus is not real big around here. Not a lot of concern.

Unfortunatly Here where I live, Lexus is as popular as Toyota, Honda, Cheverolet, Ford. I would say between the 5 of them there are equal shares where I live

BMW, Porshe, Benz, Acuras, Jaguars are all pretty common as well.

Here in my local comunity amoung the million dollar manions Lexus's and Benz's are a dime a dozen. Unfortunatly Vettes and Cadillacs are not.

GM should focus their time on actually making a good f*cking car that people will buy, even withOUT employee discount pricing! :alert::thumb:

I think the new redesign of the New 3 Series is too girly. The lines of the car have ben softened and looks like a chick car now. The way BMW is going design wise on all of their models to me looks kind of gay.

The New IS Lexus defnately needs to be bigger than the previous model to compete. I would not even look at the current ones due to their smallish size.

I promise the business of my next car to GM as long as they can keep up with the competition. If Cadillac can build an entry-level car that battles the 3-series, IS Lexus, C-class, etc. then I promise Caddy I'll buy their CTS or whatever, as long as it's just as good if not better.

To tell you the truth Jimbo, I'm pretty excited about the new CTS. Lutz has already publically spoken to Autoweek about the current CTSs interior flaws; I doubt he sat on his hands when it came time to fix it.

It'll come down to if you want bland exterior Euro styling, boring exterior Asian styling, or bold exterior American styling. Some people want bland (see current 7 series haters) and some people want boring (see people with no pulse). I'll take bold, but not over-the-top, and that's the trick.

To tell you the truth Jimbo, I'm pretty excited about the new CTS. Lutz has already publically spoken to Autoweek about the current CTSs interior flaws; I doubt he sat on his hands when it came time to fix it.

It'll come down to if you want bland Euro styling, boring Asian styling, or bold American styling. Some people want bland (see current 7 series haters) and some people want boring (see people with no pulse). I'll take bold, but not over-the-top, and that's the trick.

Looking at the current CTS interior and comparing it to the new IS, I can't understand how you could possibly say the IS is boring and the CTS is bold.:think::lol: I mean I literally am trying and just can't do it. The CTS' interior just looks piece-milled and akward... definitely not bold.

Then again the old IS interior was worse than the current CTS interior in terms of looks, so I'm honestly not being biased here. I hate the 3-series' interior... just too generic, cold, and stodgy looking. The Acura TL was my favorite interior in this class. The old IS interior was not good. The CTS' interior was better until this new IS was announced, IMO.

Looking at the current CTS interior and comparing it to the new IS, I can't understand how you could possibly say the IS is boring and the CTS is bold.:think::lol: I mean I literally am trying and just can't do it. The CTS' interior just looks piece-milled and akward... definitely not bold.

Then again the old IS interior was worse than the current CTS interior in terms of looks, so I'm honestly not being biased here. I hate the 3-series' interior... just too generic, cold, and stodgy looking. The Acura TL was my favorite interior in this class. The old IS interior was not good. The CTS' interior was better until this new IS was announced, IMO.

The 2007 CTS will be all new, with a Lutz approved interior. Wait until the 2006 NAIAS before you compare the IS250/350 to the CTS. Both second gens will be out by next fall. Also the Caddy 3.6L is getting a bump up to 305HP-ish

The 2007 CTS will be all new, with a Lutz approved interior. Wait until the 2006 NAIAS before you compare the IS250/350 to the CTS. Both second gens will be out by next fall.

:thumb:

Apples to apples here, Threxx.

:thumb:

Apples to apples here, Threxx.

I agree that the 2007 CTS is better compared to the 2006 IS than the 2006 IS to the old CTS which came out in 2003. But it almost sounds like you're insinuating that even the current-gen CTS has a great looking exciting interior yet the new IS is still boring?:confused:

I agree that the 2007 CTS is better compared to the 2006 IS than the 2006 IS to the old CTS which came out in 2003. But it almost sounds like you're insinuating that even the current-gen CTS has a great looking exciting interior yet the new IS is still boring?:confused:

No, I'm not going to defend the current CTS's interior, it's piss poor for the price of the car, esp. when you get into the V model.

When I speak about bold, borning and bland I speak in terms of exterior looks.

I went back and edited my post a few back to make it clear as to what I meant.

No, I'm not going to defend the current CTS's interior, it's piss poor for the price of the car, esp. when you get into the V model.


CTS-V interior looks good with the NAV and minor upgrades. It is also important to remember that the CTS came out in January of 2002 as an '03. By 2002 standards it is great.

People who need a near-luxury sedan in the next few months are well advised to choose the Infiniti G35. If you can wait, the upcoming BMW 1-series will be the small sports sedan to watch.


------>:lol:<------ (http://www.sniffpetrol.com/AdBMW1series.jpg)

------>:lol:<------ (http://www.sniffpetrol.com/AdBMW1series.jpg):lol:

I swear, I used to LOVE the BMW lineup. I always liked the styling, and obviously they made some fun to drive vehicles.

But it seems to me that, over the last 5 years or so, BMW's upper management must have picked up a SERIOUS addiction to crack. I'm not a big Audi fan at all, but the upcoming 1-Series is just damn ugly next to the upcoming Audi A3 (or next to anything else, for that matter). The ruined 7-Series, 5-Series (not as bad), 3-Series, Z4...Good Lord.