Autoextremist on Pontiac.....

Will Pontiac survive? Only if it rediscovers its rebel soul.

Detroit. Ever since it began to dawn on GM management that their "bad patches" in market performance had turned into a market slide of epic proportions, they began to finally come to grips with the realization that their hoary divisional structure, which was in desperate need of trimming, also required huge amounts of dollars for rejuvenation in order to quell its inexorable downward spiral - and that they couldn't afford to fix everything at once. So, starting with Cadillac, GM has been making its way through its divisions, doling out money for major product changes and upgrades. After Cadillac, Chevrolet and Saturn got attention (with Chevy being long overdue). And in the midst of their new product crusade, GM took a flyer on the Hummer. Now, GM is faced with the daunting task of resurrecting Pontiac and Buick. I'll cover Buick in another column, but today, the subject is Pontiac.

First of all, there was hand-wringing about Pontiac long before "Maximum Bob" made his ill-timed comment about it being a "damaged brand" at the New York Auto Show this past spring - one that touched-off a relentless firestorm in the media. Suffice to say, once Automotive News weighs in with a cover story about Pontiac like they did this week, the whole subject is veering dangerously close to having "jumped the shark." But the one essential ingredient missing in every discussion I've heard or read about the subject is the historical significance of Pontiac and what it once meant to the corporation - and why unless GM management comes to terms with the once-proud division's place in the new "downsized" GM, they'll never figure out what to do with the it.

One thing that continually bothers me about GM's modern-day thinking is that the legion of new managers who have been bred through the GM system (and even the ones from outside it) and who are now at the helm of these divisions seem to equate the word "history" with the word "bad." It's as if they're afraid that if they even get near the word it will send them to NostalgiaVille - a destination they don't want to visit under any circumstances lest they be considered out of touch, or even worse - obsolete.

But there's a huge difference between wallowing in nostalgia and paying the proper respect to a brand's heritage.

Wishing things were "the way they used to be" is the kind of nostalgic thinking that can lead an automotive brand astray. It results in products with more surface flash and gimmicky design cues than true substance, and inevitably it gets played out in about ten minutes - with everyone standing around making excuses for why it just didn't come together.

A properly executed automotive brand, on the other hand, is one that takes into account its heritage and history, focusing on the true characteristics that made the brand come alive in the first place, while accounting for the attitude and presence that distinguished it from all the others.

Ironically, the designers hard at work at GM Design know this and understand it intimately, because they're the ones who inevitably have to put things in perspective for the marketers - while bringing a modern rendition of an automotive brand into focus in the flesh.

In Pontiac's case, it's pretty simple. After languishing with no new products (plus products that were either flat-out wrong or bad to begin with), the division finds itself in limbo, barely an afterthought in the market and damn near an afterthought within GM too. Yes, the new Solstice is coming, which I happen to believe to be a milestone car and one of the most alluring designs to come along in years, but that's just one bright shining light in the Pontiac equation, while the rest of the picture gets cloudy.

The full line of G6 cars - the Coupe, Sedan and Convertible - are still ramping up and that process won't be completed until well into the beginning of next year. I find them to be competent entries in the market with better than average design appeal, but as we well know, merely "competent" is not what this market needs more of. Pontiac managers are counting on the G6 to be the bread-and-butter everyday success that Pontiac needs, but we'll see.

After the G6, you have the 400HP GTO, which we here at AE have repeatedly called the high-performance value of the year (despite its mild-mannered looks), but from there it goes from cloudy to downright ugly. Bowing to the dealers, Pontiac is getting a version of the Chevy Equinox called the Torrent. (I blasted this decision many columns ago as an example of GM doing exactly the wrong thing. If it were a Japanese company, they'd take the moderately successful Equinox and hone and refine it to the point that the nameplate became known for excellence on its own. What does GM do? They take the short-term view and toss it to Pontiac to appease their dealers, not thinking that diluting the burgeoning impact of the Equinox nameplate in the market might be a bad thing). On top of that, they have a minivan that should never have happened and is not worth mentioning - the Vibe compact and the long-in-the-tooth Grand Prix, which hardly approaches its former glory, even with the new optional V-8.

Just off the top of my head, I have trouble seeing the "up" side in this lineup.

What GM really needs to do is step back and consider history - something they're loath to do, apparently. Back when GM was made up of divisional fiefdoms, Pontiac was always the "maverick" brand, a "bad-boy" counterpoint to the relentless wholesomeness/Americana put forth by Chevrolet. And the intramural battles between these two divisional titans yielded some incredibly great cars.

Pontiac was all about swagger and attitude - and every time Chevrolet would try to flaunt their performance credentials and look down their noses at Pontiac, the "pirates" in Pontiac (led first by Bunkie Knudsen and then John Z. DeLorean, and ably assisted by some of the most talented minds both within and outside GM at the time, including marketing guru Jim Wangers) would show up with something that would steal Chevy's thunder, driving the folks in Warren crazy. To put a finer point on the distinctiveness that defined Pontiac, this is the division that really did march to a different drummer, and they went out of their way to deliver cars to the street that always had that little something special - things that only Pontiac would do - whether it was wild interiors, eight-lug aluminum wheels, three two-barrel carburetors or in-your-face styling.

But can that quintessential Pontiac attitude translate to an automotive world that is dramatically different, one where GM controls half the market that it used to? One where Pontiac has become a bit player because of long-term neglect, missteps and woeful product miscues? And one, arguably, where Pontiac's raison d'etre is rapidly fading?

I contend that it can. Consumers are desperate for attitude out in the market - just look at the Chrysler 300C and the Mustang. Yes, people will recite all of the other predictable politically correct ingredients - quality, durability, value and a renewed emphasis on fuel economy - but at the end of the day, car buyers out there want style, distinctiveness and a perceptible attitude. And there's no reason in the world why Pontiac can't give it to them.

But the people charged with the stewardship of the Pontiac brand have to figure out a way to restore the division's "maverick" personality - and it's not going to happen by chasing down every "hip" marketing opportunity that comes along, either. Pontiac is nowhere right now - and the buzz marketing initiatives they're pursuing aren't getting them where they need to go.

Why? Because there's not a large enough foundation of desirable products to base it on.

The G6 lineup has merit, and, of course, the Solstice definitely has "hit" written all over it. And the GTO should survive in concept, but they absolutely must do something different in terms of the way it looks - perhaps going to different vehicle architecture entirely. The rest of the Pontiac lineup? Forget it. There is not one other vehicle wearing the Pontiac emblem right now that deserves to exist. Not one. And that includes the Torrent. There are dealers out there who will tell you otherwise, but those are the same dealers who think Pontiac should be a full-line car company too. Those days were over 25 years ago.

In order for Pontiac to survive, Pontiac operatives have to figure out a way to circumvent the GM "system" - just like Pontiac managers did in the late '50s and throughout the '60s. They have to manipulate the GM system to their advantage and basically push Pontiac in a direction that the rest of the company isn't going in order to generate products that will resonate on the street.

And that means cars - not people movers, mini SUVs, crossovers or pickup trucks - but cars. Preferably, very hot cars. Pontiacs that bristle with performance, breathtaking design and an unmistakable "maverick" attitude that can't be found anywhere else.

But most of all, cars that exude an edgy rebel soul that other manufacturers shy away from out of fear of offending someone.

That's what Pontiac was all about, and that's what it needs to be again if it has any shot at all of surviving.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

I agree. This is the most obvious thing to do (at least to anyone outside of GM).

I agree 100%. I have never figured out how Pontiac was the performance brand with its line up. Truthfully, they need a fbody type car more more then chevrolet.

Good read. My question is why is this stuff so obvious to well, everyone - and yet it has almost completely escaped those charged with running the division? Thing is it applies equally to any of the divisions and GM as a whole - not just Pontiac.

Uh-oh, I feel a rant coming.......

I love GM and have neither bought nor dreamed of owning anything else, but it just makes my blood boil....

Not speaking of the current braintrust per se, (but speed is of the essence and you're not exactly motoring) but over the past decade, no two decades and a half and more those that have risen to the "top" who should have embodied and defended the mission of the brand(s) have allowed the drift to occur in the first place and not only that allowed them to drift farther and farther away. So now we get to the "Oh, we are really going to focus on our core business now" mantra. Newsflash GM, you should never, ever have had to say that period.

These clowns should be burned at the stake, drawn and quartered and beheaded. Even then I'm not sure the punishment would fit the crimes....

... rant over. :-)

What we've been saying for a while.

I dont want Pontiac to have a car under the G6 and I dont want it to have an SUV or van... four solid cars is more than sufficient. G6, rwd/awd Grand Prix sedan (think G8 type car), GTO, and Solstice. I'm not so much opposed to a cross-over Vibe, but I'd rather see Saturn have it. Covers your bases on cars: fwd, rwd, awd, roadster, coupe, sedan, I4, V6, V8 and you only have four cars.

As a dealer, I can't agree more with what he said. I'm glad he sees the merit in the G6...apparently a lot of people on this board do not. My biggest concern with Pontiac right now is the Grand Prix. It isn't an awful car, but unless its a GXP it isn't a great car. And great cars are what will sell. I wanted to buy my GXP badly, but even I freely admit the car has styling and interior faults. What can I say...I'm a sucker for an engine and a chassis :D And frankly, the Charger is going to continue to make the market forget about the Grand Prix, I think. And when is it due to be replaced? Will it even get replaced?

His take on the Torrent I tend to disagree with though. The idea needs more honing though. A crossover does not hurt Pontiac's image (does the Murano hurt Nissan's??), but the Torrent should get more than a nose and tailights. It needs the 3.9 and more styling cues, then it would be perfect.

Lets hope the '07 Pontiac Cobalt is more than a Cobalt with a new grille :(

What we've been saying for a while.
That's what I was thinking.

As a dealer, I can't agree more with what he said. I'm glad he sees the merit in the G6...apparently a lot of people on this board do not.

I certainly see the merit in the G6 Jase. In the other thread I mentioned that I preferred the look of the sedan to the coupe, but when you put either against the Malibu it is based on it's easy to see why one's a Chevy and one's a Pontiac. Pontiac definitely needs the FWD sports coupe and sedan and G6 covers it well.

What Pontiac just doesn't need is a cute-ute. As a dealer, of course you want a full lineup. It just brings a more diverse audience in and maximizes profit for you. But if Pontiac is to return to what it was, what it should be, I don't see how a 'Nox clone does it any good. Get Pontiac an all-new or heavily redone Grand Prix, a new GTO with a bolder look, and some type of AWD performance model....be it the G6 GTP concept or an AWD Grand Prix with the 5.3 V8. Cap it off with the base and turbo versions of Solstice and you have one heck of a lineup that is bold, aggressive, and gets back to what Pontiac is all about.

"Insert Firebird comment here."

"Insert Firebird comment here."

I concur. Not to get into another Camaro clone car debate, but an aggressively styled performance coupe would help Pontiac greatly IMO. I know GTO is priced at $33k, so there's not much room pricewise, but a performance coupe starting at $25k and optioned out to $30k could be a hit.

Cute-Ute would fit into what Pontaic should be more than a minivan.

However, if I was running the show they would offer neither. I do think that a Pontiac wagon/crossover/whatever would work if done right.

I do think that a Pontiac wagon/crossover/whatever would work if done right.

"Ragious"? I think that would've worked :cool:

(BTW - I can't find a picture of it)

Lets hope the '07 Pontiac Cobalt is more than a Cobalt with a new grille :(

Since the Pusuit is already built and IS a cobalt with a pontiac grill insert and VERY minor interior trim differences , I wouldnt count on it AT ALL . The US Pursuit would be the exact same scenario as the Torrent/Equinox . Different tailights would be a given . And seeing the shape wear the Cobalt coupe lights are , makes for a perfectly G6 looking taillight :tired:

I knew the'd cave and clone the cobalt in the US :mad:

No one said we're getting the Pursuit...all that's been said is that we're getting a "re-worked Cobalt."

I think the problem as of late is that the rest of GM is unwilling to let Pontiac signifigantly upstage their cars in terms of performance. G6 should have the 3.9L as the standard V6, leave the 3.5 to the Mailbu. The current Grand Prix has become a rental car. I used to see GTP's of the old generation. With the new Grand Prix all I see is the base ones with the single tailpipe running around.

One think Pontiac was able to succed on before was styling. Even if the cars could not be faster than Chevy's, they sure looked like they were. The mags dumped on the cladding and all...but the cars sold. If you did not know anything about cars, and saw a Grand Am GT Coupe...it appeared to be a serious performance car. The look alone made up for many of the Grand Am's faults in terms of sales. Now you have the G6, and while it looks nice, the looks are not the kind that sell a car on it's own (like the Grand Am).

Anyway...enough ranting...but I am gonna start a petition to bring cladding back:)

Good article Z284ever :thumb: I think I feel a cold comming on though....cough, Firebird, cough, Formula, cough, Trans Am...They were the attitude at Pontiac, they were the performance icon of the old Pontiac and as far as I'm concerned they are what made Pontiac so great and should be the car that takes them back to where they were many years ago. It's time to dominate the streets again and bring fear to your fellow driver, it's time to bring the TA back :bow:

Pretty good business case, huh? :cool: Well, at least I think so :rolleyes:

Anyway...enough ranting...but I am gonna start a petition to bring cladding back:)

I'm planting a virus on your website if you do :D When users try to access the site, they'll be diverted to the G6 website with the message "How great does this car look?" plastered across the top :D

I proudly own the ONLY pre-'05 Pontiac style that isn't festooned with cladding and crap. Sadly, the GP has become what you said. The previous style flat blew it away. I've seen people at clubgp.com admit that they bought an '04, and missed their old one so much they traded back to the previous style!!! That's sad...

I'll never forget the first '04 we got...a silver base model. My mother, owner of a '95, '98 and '01 Grand Prix GTs, took it for a test drive. The whole time she said "my god this thing is ugly," for the ENTIRE RIDE. I correctly predicted then and there this car would flop....and it is.

Unless its a Comp G or GXP, I have less than no interest in a GP. And even then, its the drive and the features (not the look) that gets my attention.

Someone was asking about the Rageous... I believe Pontiac would have a big hit on their hands today if they had decided to produce it. As for the Montana/Torrent/Vibe, I wish they would be cancelled. What a sad stain on the Pontiac heritage...

Here's a couple Rageous pix

http://mwshowgo67.com/formula99/images/v8cross/rageous_1.jpg

http://mwshowgo67.com/formula99/images/v8cross/rageous_2.jpg

Someone was asking about the Rageous... I believe Pontiac would have a big hit on their hands today if they had decided to produce it. As for the Montana/Torrent/Vibe, I wish they would be cancelled. What a sad stain on the Pontiac heritage...

Here's a couple Rageous pix

http://mwshowgo67.com/formula99/images/v8cross/rageous_1.jpg

http://mwshowgo67.com/formula99/images/v8cross/rageous_2.jpg

Obviously that is a concept, and in concept form is a bit outlandish, but damn that looks pretty good. It has a nice stance to it, aggressive styling, and looks like a Pontiac. Yet once again, it's not going to be produced. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

Pontiac today is living with the disastrous decisions of a couple years ago, from the likes of Zarella and Lynn Myers. Cars like the Prix GXP, the G6 GTP coupe, and the 05 GTO are the best hopes and harbingers of Pontiac's future.

I agree 100%. I have never figured out how Pontiac was the performance brand with its line up. Truthfully, they need a fbody type car more more then chevrolet.

In the 90's, being the excitement division meant putting ridiculous plastic cladding all over everything. I like the direction that they are taking now, clean, attractive styling.

That Rageous concept could make a real sweet car...And I'm diggin' the hood that looks like it came off an '02 TA. I've never seen that concept before, but now that I have I think it would have massive potential :)

In my opinion, what is wrong with Pontiac is that it is seen as the 'me too' division. Almost every product in their line up is an after-thought version of a car designed primarily for another division. Sunfire was an after thought version of cavalier. Vibe=Matrix. Torrent=Equinox. GTO=Monaro. In Canada, we have Pursuit=Cavalier, and Wave=Aveo.
Aztek was unique to Pontiac but awful unfortunately. The Solstice had a chance to turn things around, but before it even made it to production, GM announced the Sky, which it seems has stolen the show from the Solstice.
I think that there should be some products unique to Pontiac in some way, so they can distinguish themselves.

Cars like the Rageous are definetly what Pontiac needs. The brand never seemed to be in such dire trouble before, when they were allowed to be outlandish. Turning it into an American BMW was one of the worst ideas I have heard for Pontiac's future. Sounds good in theory, but awful in execution.

I don't know. I think Pontiac just needs one blockbuster. Just ONE.

And it won't be the Solstice either. Sure there are pre-orders, but no roadster in history has ever sold more than 20,000 units. Solstice will be no different.

It won't be the GTO. It's numbers are so limited, it will never be a real player for Pontiac in it's current form. And it's restricted numbers negate any reason to make LOTS of people want to buy it. A pity.

The GP? Well I like the GXP, but it's interior is sorta strange and it's exterior is non-too-pretty. Oh well.

Vibe and Torrent? Um well, good luck.

So it all comes down to the G6. G6 needs to make a big splash...and not just with the ladies on Oprah. I wonder what John Z. DeLorean would do today, with a half dozen engineers, one G6, access to the Pontiac parts bin, and a secret weekend? What would he do? I betcha that he'd jam the biggest, nastiest, certifiable motor that would fit in a G6's engine bay. Some engine that Pontiac already has access to. Some engine that no other division uses...or cares about. How about the GP's SC 3800 and a six speed manual? Make it drive so sweet...and present it to Bob Lutz to drive for a week. Make this powertrain available on every body style, (I almost....almost... said, call it GTO...but I didn't, so relax),. Price it at around $25,500. Would lots of people buy a car like that? Would such a car create a G6 buzz? Would it make the cover of any magazine? Altima SE-R-who.

I think that's what DeLorean would do...and so would I.

Oh and about the G6 name.....

Has that really worked as well as hoped? OK, I can see some reasons that it wasn't called Grand Am. Grand Am was once a sort of near GTO type nameplate...and it sure worked it's way down the ladder in the past decade or so. But I could think of alot of heritage names that would inspire me more than G6 though.

I didn't think 'Grand Am' has been stigmatized with a cheap junk label like 'Cavilier' in the general publics' eyes. Personally I think Grand Am has a better presense and rools off the tongue better. Plus it just sounds 'American'

I think the Vibe is a good car for Pontiac, but I'd like to see a 2.2 eco tech in place of the Yamaha 1.9. And appearently Toyota quality isn't up to standard with this car.

Now to build a killer G6 for it's class, I skip over the SC 3800 for a higher tech engine, like the 3.6 or 4.0 'shortstar' from the last gen Aurora, but bump horsepower to 285-290 (I'd want to balance torque with power, I don't see this as a racer's car but a high performance touring car), 6-speed manual and paddle shift slush box, with the drive train configured for RWD or AWD (simply leave off the front half of the drive train.

Aesthetically, I'd give it some subtle moldings around the entire bottom of the vehicle, subtle flares for the fender lips, and a small chin spoiler. I think with the current shape of the car a sunken hood scoop(s) will look better than something sticking up. I'd color match or black out the headlight surrounds for a meaner look. The gauge faces would match the body (ala GTO). Black out the rear lights. The front 'kidney beans' grill would loose the honey comb grill and have a 'scoop' like look remeniscent of the last Grtand Am GT's (or maybe solid inserts body colored leaving a 1/4 inch or so outline).

Just thinkin' off top of my head...more interesting than work at the moment.

I think the Vibe is a good car for Pontiac, but I'd like to see a 2.2 eco tech in place of the Yamaha 1.9. And appearently Toyota quality isn't up to standard with this car.

That is a Toyota 1.8.
Id like a Delta hatchback with a 2.4 and Turbo 2.2...but when Saturn gets the Astra...whats the point?

IMO, end Pontiac. Yeah, you can all yell at me, but right now there is nothing I cant get elsewhere.
Merge G6 and Malibu styling, and just call it a Malibu for Chevy, and then have the upper class Aura from Saturn.
You have the Astra 3dr,5dr and sedan for Saturn, and then have the Sedan and Coupe from Chevy Cobalt, but give Astra 2.4 standard and 2.2 turbo for Redline.
Sky can easily take over Solstice sales with the addition of a hard top and auto trans.
Give Saturn an aggressive 2dr coupe shared with Camaro.
And then give them a RWD sedan with AWD ability...
I have much hope for Saturn's future....not so much for Pontiac.

Anybody else think that its ironic that Saturn could possibly displace Pontiac as the sport division? Saturn was orginally created not out of love for the car and the enthusiast, but as a basic, cheap car to compete in the $10,000 price range. Pontiac stands for building exciting, fast, great looking cars. Yet their future products beyond the Solstice seems incredibly bleak for the driving enthusiast.

I didn't think 'Grand Am' has been stigmatized with a cheap junk label like 'Cavilier' in the general publics' eyes. Personally I think Grand Am has a better presense and rools off the tongue better. Plus it just sounds 'American'

I think the Vibe is a good car for Pontiac, but I'd like to see a 2.2 eco tech in place of the Yamaha 1.9. And appearently Toyota quality isn't up to standard with this car.

Now to build a killer G6 for it's class, I skip over the SC 3800 for a higher tech engine, like the 3.6 or 4.0 'shortstar' from the last gen Aurora, but bump horsepower to 285-290 (I'd want to balance torque with power, I don't see this as a racer's car but a high performance touring car), 6-speed manual and paddle shift slush box, with the drive train configured for RWD or AWD (simply leave off the front half of the drive train.



Oh, I like the Grand Am name also. But it certainly has slipped down the slippery image slope since it's first two generations....when mags like C&D considered it a lower cost, domestic alternative to a Euro sports sedan.

Sure an HFV6 would be nice, but there are cost and political barriers associated with it. On the other hand Pontiac pretty much "owns" the SC 3800. I don't think anyone at GM would fight Pontiac for a piece of that....IOW, no GM division cares enough about that motor to put up a stink. Besides, this motor has created quite an extensive Pontiac performance following and aftermarket. And it's really cheap.

Visionaries like DeLorean would see that the pieces of the puzzle could fit. Maybe going around the system to make it happen....just like the original GTO.

You know.....SCREW IT! This car should be the new high volume GTO. A car that LOTS of people would want to buy. A halo car that would sprinkle positive energy and press over Pontiac's most important car line.

I still don't think the blown 3800 is going to turn around the direction Pontiac is heading in. The G6 still doesn't stand out enough, and before everyone yells at me for saying the Tempest didn't either, this is a different market today. A blown G6 is still not going to give the kind of awe inspiring performance for the price point that the original GTO did, simply because there is way too much competition in the market today. Sure, it would move some more units, but not in a way to save Pontiac, or increase its image substantially. I think part of this is due to the fact that the G6 just looks to mundane and pacifistic.

I still stand by saying Pontiac needs some more wild cars, because as Al said, there is nothing that the brand offers that I cannot get elsewhere (except for the GTO of course, unless I want to take a trip to Australia.)

In the 90's, being the excitement division meant putting ridiculous plastic cladding all over everything. I like the direction that they are taking now, clean, attractive styling.

They are now the performance division, not the excitement division. If you are going to designate a division to appeal to enthusiasts, make the vehicles that back it up.

An SC3800 in a G6, and call it a GTO?
Man.....you need to take a nap.
How can one man hit the nail onthe head of for what a Camaro should be, and then be 180 off what a GTO should be.

That is a Toyota 1.8.
Id like a Delta hatchback with a 2.4 and Turbo 2.2...but when Saturn gets the Astra...whats the point?

IMO, end Pontiac. Yeah, you can all yell at me, but right now there is nothing I cant get elsewhere.
Merge G6 and Malibu styling, and just call it a Malibu for Chevy, and then have the upper class Aura from Saturn.
You have the Astra 3dr,5dr and sedan for Saturn, and then have the Sedan and Coupe from Chevy Cobalt, but give Astra 2.4 standard and 2.2 turbo for Redline.
Sky can easily take over Solstice sales with the addition of a hard top and auto trans.
Give Saturn an aggressive 2dr coupe shared with Camaro.
And then give them a RWD sedan with AWD ability...
I have much hope for Saturn's future....not so much for Pontiac.

I think he was referring to the GT engine. The vibe has 2 diffrent 1.8 liter engines. The 180hp version has Yamaha heads.

I still don't think the blown 3800 is going to turn around the direction Pontiac is heading in. The G6 still doesn't stand out enough, and before everyone yells at me for saying the Tempest didn't either, this is a different market today. A blown G6 is still not going to give the kind of awe inspiring performance for the price point that the original GTO did, simply because there is way too much competition in the market today. Sure, it would move some more units, but not in a way to save Pontiac, or increase its image substantially. I think part of this is due to the fact that the G6 just looks to mundane and pacifistic.

I still stand by saying Pontiac needs some more wild cars, because as Al said, there is nothing that the brand offers that I cannot get elsewhere (except for the GTO of course, unless I want to take a trip to Australia.)


I dont think the G6 is going to bring things back either. It's more a transportation/family car. Nothing wrong with that if they pump it up a little for the sport lovers. The thing is they need a flagship car, really something along the line of an fbody. It just makes sense.

I think he was referring to the GT engine. The vibe has 2 diffrent 1.8 liter engines. The 180hp version has Yamaha heads.

Yeah, I knew the hi-po engine was a Yamaha, I thought I heard the entire engine line was as well (Toyota contracting Yamaha to design and build them, like Ford did with the SHO's V6)

An SC3800 in a G6, and call it a GTO?
Man.....you need to take a nap.
How can one man hit the nail onthe head of for what a Camaro should be, and then be 180 off what a GTO should be.

Why? Listen VERY carefully and I'll tell you.

The current GTO does absolutely nothing in the cause to save Pontiac . Nil.

How much profit does the current GTO add to Pontiac's war chest. Not much. Is there $1,000 dollars profit in each car? $2,000? Whatever....multiply by 14,000 units. Is the current GTO a good halo for the all important bread and butter G6, (which is the car that MUST save Pontiac)? Not at all. Does the current GTO help sell large volumes of other Pontiacs? I don't see it.
The GTO was a bridge...a place keeper...until Zeta got here. That's now gone.

Bold ,courageous and free thinking strategies need to be applied to the G6 if Pontiac is to survive into the next decade, (have I mentioned that it is the G6 that will/will not save Pontiac?). The VZ GTO may be very nice...but it will have ZERO impact on Pontiac's survival.

In ten years I'd like to go to a car show and see GTO's classed as "Pontiacs"....not in the " other/orphaned class"

Let's wait and see what EpII does in '09. Current G6 is not going to accomplish what you guys are looking for...

Let's wait and see what EpII does in '09. Current G6 is not going to accomplish what you guys are looking for...

Hopefully powerful motors and AWD won't be stricken from the program this time......nor will Pontiac.

Firebirds may not have sold well, but a nice black or red WS6 Trans Am in front of the dealership on display sure drew attention. It gave the Pontiac brand an excitement/performance image.

My local Pontiac dealer is also a Cadillac, Mercedes, and Nissan dealer. You are lucky to find 10-12 new Pontiacs on the lot now out of over 250 new vehicles.

GTO name on a G6...you must jest!

Using that logic, Chevy should slap the Camaro name on the Cobalt SS or Malibu Coupe.

You think the current GTO caused crap...I would love to see how the public would react to a G6 based GTO.

I really think the current GTO could sell better if the styling was right and the capacity was there. Ford sold nearly 100,000 MN-12 cars for years.

I have read Charlies posts in the past concerning Pontiac though, and I am not sure he and I share the same view of Pontiac.

I personally think that Pontiac's place in GM's ladder is to be the cool, performance brand. To do that, they have to have two things-

#1- Youth oriented performance styling. I am talking cars that look fast just sitting still. I am talking WS6 Trans Am/Grand Am GT agressive styling. Some won't get it....but they were not meant to. People will pay for styling. The old GTO was among the slowest muscle cars of it's time...yet sold like hotcakes because the styling caught on with a generation. Same with the Trans Am in the 70's.

#2- Better performing cars that every GM division but Cadillac. There is no excuse for any Chevy outside the Corvette to have more performance than a sibling Pontiac. Pontiac's should also have more standard features.

GTO name on a G6...you must jest!



Only just alittle bit.

Like I said, Pontiac needs one of it's car lines to be an insane smash hit. The VZ GTO...as much as I like it....doesn't help achieve that goal.
And even if it did, the current GTO may be gone after this next year. Time for a plan B.

As far as how the public would react, I expect no worse than they did for the '04.

Only just alittle bit.

Like I said, Pontiac needs one of it's car lines to be an insane smash hit. The VZ GTO...as much as I like it....doesn't help achieve that goal.
And even if it did, the current GTO may be gone after this next year. Time for a plan B.

As far as how the public would react, I expect no worse than they did for the '04.


What would be neat would be a RWD/AWD 3 series fighter similar to the Torana concept.....

Too bad Lori Queen is so against the idea.

It would be cool, and probably what would save Pontiac from folding.
IMO, it needs to be RWD only. It needs to go after the Mazda to Infinity market. Sporty cars with RWD handling, and powerful engines.
Replace Epsilon G6 with "Beta" G6, but make it wider and give it a 2.4, and 3.6. 5spd auto or 6spd manual.
Sig-Lite Sedan, coupe, and crossover. But make Sig Lite sedan, coupeish. Suicide doors and tear drop greenhouse would make for a very unique car, and offer something against Charger.
Kappa roadster and hardtop coupe.
Thats the only way we can get osmething out of Pontiac. If they continue to stay where they are, then its only a matter of time.

Only just alittle bit.

Like I said, Pontiac needs one of it's car lines to be an insane smash hit. The VZ GTO...as much as I like it....doesn't help achieve that goal.
And even if it did, the current GTO may be gone after this next year. Time for a plan B.

As far as how the public would react, I expect no worse than they did for the '04.

Is this along the lines of what you think Pontiac needs? A very quick sketch inspired by someone's visionary ranting :p (plus I didn't want to get fired.)

http://photobucket.com/albums/a118/timbu/?action=view&current=G6restyle.jpg

It would be cool, and probably what would save Pontiac from folding.
IMO, it needs to be RWD only. It needs to go after the Mazda to Infinity market. Sporty cars with RWD handling, and powerful engines.
Replace Epsilon G6 with "Beta" G6, but make it wider and give it a 2.4, and 3.6. 5spd auto or 6spd manual.
Sig-Lite Sedan, coupe, and crossover. But make Sig Lite sedan, coupeish. Suicide doors and tear drop greenhouse would make for a very unique car, and offer something against Charger.
Kappa roadster and hardtop coupe.
Thats the only way we can get osmething out of Pontiac. If they continue to stay where they are, then its only a matter of time.

That's all great but.....

-There is no such thing as Beta.
-There won't be any such thing as Beta.
-If there were such a thing as Beta, it wouldn't replace Epsilon.
-Whatever the next RWD architecture is called (the internet seems to like the name "Sigma-lite"), Pontiac is not first in line for it.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE NEED TO WORK WITH WHAT WE'VE GOT.

That's all great but.....

-There is no such thing as Beta.
-There won't be any such thing as Beta.
-If there were such a thing as Beta, it wouldn't replace Epsilon.
-Whatever the next RWD architecture is called (the internet seems to like the name "Sigma-lite"), Pontiac is not first in line for it.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE NEED TO WORK WITH WHAT WE'VE GOT.

I understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to say, but I think the message many are trying to convey here (myself included) is that if Pontiac can only work with what it's got, its probably all over. They need that something else, that something else a G6 can't do.

I'm praying for Pontiac's sake that A) The next generation of the Epsilon platform comes AWD-ready and B) GM has the stones to give Pontiac an AWD G6 GTP with it. It's called instant street cred. Right now, Pontiac has almost none...and it's beyond sad.

I'm praying for Pontiac's sake that A) The next generation of the Epsilon platform comes AWD-ready and B) GM has the stones to give Pontiac an AWD G6 GTP with it. It's called instant street cred. Right now, Pontiac has almost none...and it's beyond sad.

I agree. The current Epsilon was supposed to have AWD and forced inducted motors....and I believe a manual trans to complete the ensemble. Blame the penny pinchers.

I wonder if bringing the GTO here, added to killing that portion of the program?

Ok, can anyone here tell me the reasoning, or logical explanation as to why a company in any industry would let one of its divisions/operations wither on a vine and go down the tubes? In GM's case, why let a division, Pontiac, suffer without new product? I understand that there's a limited budget that GM or any other company for that matter has to spend, but to just let a division squander is asinine. If the R&D budget was set up to improve/turn around Caddy first (which it has :bow: ) and then focus on Chevrolet, then Buick etc, fine. But to purposely let a division fail is ridiculous. It hurts GM's image as well. I just don't get it. Can anyone think of or know of an explanation?

Ok, can anyone here tell me the reasoning, or logical explanation as to why a company in any industry would let one of its divisions/operations wither on a vine and go down the tubes?

A lot of people have been expressing similar feelings, but let's look at how old some of Pontiacs vehicles actually are:

Model: Model Year first introduced.

Solstice: 2006
Torrent: 2006
G6: 2005
Montana SV6: 2005
GTO: 2004
Grand Prix: 2004
Vibe: 2002??

All the older stuff with lingering stock: Sunfire, Grand Am, Aztek and Bonneville are dead...

So, of "current" offerings, only the Vibe is more than 2 years old.

I understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to say, but I think the message many are trying to convey here (myself included) is that if Pontiac can only work with what it's got, its probably all over. They need that something else, that something else a G6 can't do.

Well, something else like what?

Besides, I personally think that Pontiac does have an awful lot to work with right now. They just need to turn the G6 family of cars into a sales blockbuster...that's all.

It's almost like we're seeing a replay of Oldsmobile. Lots of good product....but somehow lacking some-thing to captivate the buyer's attention.

Vibe: 2002??.....................................

So, of "current" offerings, only the Vibe is more than 2 years old.And even the Vibe recieved a new nose for 2005.

And even the Vibe recieved a new nose for 2005.

Yes.

And, the GTO got the upgrades for 2005.

The Grand Prix got the GXP for 2005.

For 2006, the G6 gets the coupe and convertible...

Heck, even the lame duck Bonneville got a GXP version.

And even the Vibe recieved a new nose for 2005.


The car debuted in 2003 as well. So a 2 model year freshning is not bad.

Well, something else like what?

Besides, I personally think that Pontiac does have an awful lot to work with right now. They just need to turn the G6 family of cars into a sales blockbuster...that's all.


I dont see how they could turn the g6 into a block buster. If it was going to be a huge success as a family car, we would already be seeing this (sales are good but not on fire). I dont see it ever being a success because of a perfromance variant. If they threw a v8 in there and gave it a good restyle fast, before its rep is set in stone they might have a g6 halo. Is that really going to happen? I doubt it.

G6 with AWD and hi-po motors connected to a manual trans = Audi fighters?

Maybe someone up on there automotive history can expand on this, but this isn't the first time Pontiac's images hasn't been out of whack. Back in the early 50's Pontiac was an old person's car because of it's styling (anyone ever seen an early 50's Pontiac with the 'suspenders' on the hood? Not pretty. Thankfully Harley Earl got them removed quickly to start to turn things around).

So, perhaps we'll be witnessing another great turnaround.

In 1956 Pontiac was in trouble. Big trouble. Bunkie Knudsen became general manager and was given 5 years to either turn Pontiac around or it would be killed.

In 1957 he was joined by DeLorean as chief of advanced engineering and Pete Estes as chief engineer. They had free reign and took bold steps and quickly turned things around.

Those guys had alot less to work with in '56/'57 than Pontiac has to work with now.

I think Cadillac has proven that extremem turnarounds are possible.

But, what was the catalyst behind that Cadillac rebirth?

Exciting, different, new products.

I think Cadillac has proven that extremem turnarounds are possible.

But, what was the catalyst behind that Cadillac rebirth?

Exciting, different, new products.

Add competative on all levels, not just price. If the new Caddy's didn't match or exceed their competition but were less expensive (and the a degree cheaper; i.e GM old think) I don't know if the turn aorund would have been as big or at all.

Darth, I understand that most of Pontiac's lineup is either brand new or only a few years old. And as good as the GTO is, as well as the G6 in terms of replacing the Grand Am, Pontiac still doesn't offer exciting products (other than the GTO). It's good to know that Pontiac has new cars, but that doesn't do any good if the performance isn't there in terms of power,handling etc. Where are the exciting cars? The got to have it cars? As somebody else has said, Pontiac currently does not have any street cred with enthusiasts, which is a shame considering Pontiac is the performance division of GM. My point being, why hasn't or doesn't Pontiac design/produce performance oriented cars? Is the beuracracy at GM that bad?

Darth, I understand that most of Pontiac's lineup is either brand new or only a few years old. And as good as the GTO is, as well as the G6 in terms of replacing the Grand Am, Pontiac still doesn't offer exciting products (other than the GTO). It's good to know that Pontiac has new cars, but that doesn't do any good if the performance isn't there in terms of power,handling etc. Where are the exciting cars? The got to have it cars? As somebody else has said, Pontiac currently does not have any street cred with enthusiasts, which is a shame considering Pontiac is the performance division of GM. My point being, why hasn't or doesn't Pontiac design/produce performance oriented cars? Is the beuracracy at GM that bad?


I understand what you mean...

While the cars are fresh and new, they need to be more exciting...

I thought Rappers and Escalades were the key to turning around Caddy :)

But seriously, the L32 3800SIII SC in the G6 would be the shisnitto snip snappitty. Nice wheels, shock revalve, different stabilizer bars and appearance mods. But don't call it the GTO. It should just be the crazy version of the G6.

Maybe G6R or G6X.

Who exactly is in charge at Pontiac? Who heads the product development, engineering, brand identity? It just seems that noone cares about Pontiac. You'd think the GM of Pontiac would want exciting models out on the showroom floors. Yet there's nothing. "Oh, yeah lets have a Equinox badged as a Pontiac and call it the Torrent! Hmm, that Toyota Matrix looks like a fun car, lets base the Vibe off it! Lets restyle the Grand Prix to an uglier style and it'll sell!"

I just don't get it. Where's a Delorean or Knudsen when we need them most?

I thought Rappers and Escalades were the key to turning around Caddy :)

But seriously, the L32 3800SIII SC in the G6 would be the shisnitto snip snappitty. Nice wheels, shock revalve, different stabilizer bars and appearance mods. But don't call it the GTO. It should just be the crazy version of the G6.

Maybe G6R or G6X.

OK, call it CanAm.

In 1956 Pontiac was in trouble. Big trouble. Bunkie Knudsen became general manager and was given 5 years to either turn Pontiac around or it would be killed.

In 1957 he was joined by DeLorean as chief of advanced engineering and Pete Estes as chief engineer. They had free reign and took bold steps and quickly turned things around.

Those guys had alot less to work with in '56/'57 than Pontiac has to work with now.


Not really, they had thier own engines and the right people to make them special.

I think Cadillac has proven that extremem turnarounds are possible.

But, what was the catalyst behind that Cadillac rebirth?

Exciting, different, new products.


Cadillac has the right engines, the right platforms and the right people right now.

The problem I see is the corporate sharing of the parts bin. Now GM has some wonderful drivetrains and engines, but I think with the penny pinchers always ruining products, that a less that competitive car gets approved in the name of cost savings.

Back in the 60's and 70's when Pontiac was at its peak, what was the difference? Pontiac Engines and suspensions made by Pontiac Engineers. Those designers and engineers were always striving to create a bad ass machine with big performing engines. Tri-Power 389, RamAir III, Ram Air IV, Super Duty, 455 etc. Pontiac at that time had incredible engines. Now with corporate engines, that has all changed. (Don't get me wrong the LS* series engines are amazing, but it's not the same.)

Plus the beuracracy at GM seems to hamper them. Too bad there's noone in charge at Pontiac or GM that has the guts to make Pontiac an aggressive division.

Not really, they had thier own engines and the right people to make them special.

Yes and no.

They certainly don't have the latitude with powertrains that they used to have back in the day. But Pontiac is currently the only user of the Series III SC 3800 on the planet - it's a Pontiac exclusive engine by default now. They also will have a 250 hp turbo version of the Ecotec soon for Solstice. And what ever happened to the SC HV 3.5/3.9?

I'm not saying powertrains are plug and play as they were in the '50's and '60's....but even the casual observer can see some possibilities here.

Darth, I understand that most of Pontiac's lineup is either brand new or only a few years old. And as good as the GTO is, as well as the G6 in terms of replacing the Grand Am, Pontiac still doesn't offer exciting products (other than the GTO). It's good to know that Pontiac has new cars, but that doesn't do any good if the performance isn't there in terms of power,handling etc. Where are the exciting cars? The got to have it cars? As somebody else has said, Pontiac currently does not have any street cred with enthusiasts, which is a shame considering Pontiac is the performance division of GM. My point being, why hasn't or doesn't Pontiac design/produce performance oriented cars? Is the beuracracy at GM that bad?

Can I ask when did they make exciting cars? IMO, they are hell of a lot mroe exciting then what we had 5, 10 and 15 years ago.
And dont say "Firebird", cause if they were so "gotta have" and so "omg omg omg omg fap fap fap" then howcome they sold at such piss poor numbers near thier death? Maybe back in the 80's, but 90's...
Couldnt be that gotta have. There was a GP GTP, and thats it. Not hot 2dr RWD roadster, no 303 hp V8 Grand Prix, No 240hp Grand Ams with 6spd manuals with optional hard top convertable.
I will agree that they dont have a lot, but they are doing MUCH better then they were only a few years ago. They just arent relevent anymroe, especialy with the Chevy rehashes they get, and with Saturn moving up, there is no point in Pontiac.

Can I ask when did they make exciting cars?


How about the 1989 3.8L turbo anniversary TA and the 1988 fiero gt?

How about the 1989 3.8L turbo anniversary TA and the 1988 fiero gt?
and the 92 firehawk.

Can I ask when did they make exciting cars? IMO, they are hell of a lot mroe exciting then what we had 5, 10 and 15 years ago.
And dont say "Firebird", cause if they were so "gotta have" and so "omg omg omg omg fap fap fap" then howcome they sold at such piss poor numbers near thier death? Maybe back in the 80's, but 90's...
Couldnt be that gotta have. There was a GP GTP, and thats it. Not hot 2dr RWD roadster, no 303 hp V8 Grand Prix, No 240hp Grand Ams with 6spd manuals with optional hard top convertable.
I will agree that they dont have a lot, but they are doing MUCH better then they were only a few years ago. They just arent relevent anymroe, especialy with the Chevy rehashes they get, and with Saturn moving up, there is no point in Pontiac.
It's as relevant as GM wants it to be. That's what really bugs me about this. All GM needs to do is give Pontiac the right product and they will fly. The G6 is nice, but could be sold as a Chevy, Saturn or Buick without anything more than a badge change. If given the right product and advertising, Pontiac could be what it used to be - a great youth brand.
Pontiac needs the Solstice. It's something hot, and it's a Pontiac through and through. Let's hope the success is enough to make GM see that Pontiac is worth saving.

Big Al, I see your point. The point I was trying to make is that in Pontiac's history they always had cars in development that was performance oriented that probably would have been great if GM had let them loose.

Examples: The Banshee concept back in the 60's that eventually became the Firebird based on the Camaro Chassis. A 2 seater roadster that got squashed by Chevy because of no inhouse competition for the Vette (if the story is true).

The Fiero: Unbeleivable car in concept form that got castrated by a weak 4 cylinder offering, though Pontiac had grand plans for it. Plus the other cars otehrs have already stated, the TTA, 92 Firehawk,hell even the Mclaren Turbo Grand Prix.

My point is Pontiac always had performance benchmarked for their cars but were usually gutted by GM.

If given the right product and advertising, Pontiac could be what it used to be - a great youth brand.
Pontiac needs the Solstice. It's something hot, and it's a Pontiac through and through. Let's hope the success is enough to make GM see that Pontiac is worth saving.

I agree that Pontiac could be good a youth brand....although I don't agree that that's what Pontiac has always been.
Ok, what does that mean product wise? Solstice at around $20K fits I think. Vibe fits I think. Does a FOURHUNDREDHORSEPOWER, $32,000+ car fit? Think about that for a minute...."youth brand", 400 hp and $32,000....do they go together?.
And G6, how will that capture the imagination of this segment?

You know, alot of things could be more clear cut if Saturn never existed. Not only is Saturn becoming the new Oldsmobile, it's going to start crowding struggling Pontiac also.

A lot of people have been expressing similar feelings, but let's look at how old some of Pontiacs vehicles actually are:

Model: Model Year first introduced.

Solstice: 2006
Torrent: 2006
G6: 2005
Montana SV6: 2005
GTO: 2004
Grand Prix: 2004
Vibe: 2002??

All the older stuff with lingering stock: Sunfire, Grand Am, Aztek and Bonneville are dead...

So, of "current" offerings, only the Vibe is more than 2 years old.

I understand where you are coming from, Darth. But just for devil's advocate's sake, let's take the position of the guy or gal on the street & how they'd see this:

Solstice isn't out yet.

Torrent has been on sale in Chevy dealers for nearly 2 years as the Equinox.

G6 has been nothing more than a quasi-euro sedan.

Montana is simply a new nose and dash on a vehicle that's been out for many years.

GTO, as much as you & I LOVE it, is a victim of Pontiac Motor Divisions "dull" design trend.

Grand Prix is still fairly new, but the Vibe isn't. Overall, the GP doesn't seem to have been as popular as it's previous version was.

The "gaudy" Grand Am was still one of the top 3 selling cars in the US when it was replaced and the Sunfire had what is without a doubt the ugliest restyling in automotive history. Aztek's problem has been beaten to the ground.

Bonneville was the worse case of marketing misdirection and foolishness I can think of in recent years (an excitement division car that handled worse than a base Regal, was slower than base Grand Prix, and wasn't half as entertaining as a base Impala). Putting in a V8 & the handling it should have had in the 1st place, then charging the same price as the already overpriced Lincoln LS wasn't the brightest move (sorry for the Bonne rant...I still really despise the car).

One more thing that I think is being missed is that car design tends to get old quicker today. If a car doesn't have a major restyling every 3 or 4 years, it becomes old news unless it's sold as a high value appliance.

I agree that Pontiac could be good a youth brand....although I don't agree that that's what Pontiac has always been.
Ok, what does that mean product wise? Solstice at around $20K fits I think. Vibe fits I think. Does a FOURHUNDREDHORSEPOWER, $32,000+ car fit? Think about that for a minute...."youth brand", 400 hp and $32,000....do they go together?.
And G6, how will that capture the imagination of this segment?

You know, alot of things could be more clear cut if Saturn never existed. Not only is Saturn becoming the new Oldsmobile, it's going to start crowding struggling Pontiac also.
The GTO could fit perfectly into this strategy. I saw a vintage Pontiac ad for one of their lower models (Ventura maybe?) and it read something to the effect of, "There's a little bit of GTO in every car we make." Indeed, the GTO could be the aspirational model that gets kids in the showroom. Look at the way import tuners obsess over the Nissan Skyline and even the lame NSX. I can easily imagine a world in which you have a bunch of dumb kids riding around in souped up G6's Solstice's and some Sunfire replacement trying to look like they own a GTO.

I'm also confounded by Saturn. I also can't understand why GM seems willing to sandbag there second largest brand for one that's never turned a profit.

The GTO could fit perfectly into this strategy. I saw a vintage Pontiac ad for one of their lower models (Ventura maybe?) and it read something to the effect of, "There's a little bit of GTO in every car we make." Indeed, the GTO could be the aspirational model that gets kids in the showroom.

I think that strategy worked when you had a GTO and a Tempest/ LeMans or a Bonneville and Catalina. But I just don't quite see how the current GTO will inspire anyone to buy a G6 or Vibe....I just don't.

If GTO was one version from a wide family of cars, I think it would make a fantastic aspirational model. The way it is now - imported, limited volume, no model variations, unrelated to any other Pontiac in any way - GTO is simply the outlying boutique car available at Pontiac dealers.

That's why I keep getting back to G6 (wish it had a real name). A really cool, high perf , yet affordable version , would be aspirational and would have a trickle down effect on the rest of the line. This tagline would then mean something...."There's alittle bit of GTO (or whatever the name), in every car we make".

Oh, and here's a bright spot for G6...

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=17619

I think I'm gonna be proven wrong on the G6, and I have no problem with it. :)

I feel the G6 lacks personality, but I'll be the 1st to say it does look and feel like a quality piece. I haven't seen a G6 coupe in the flesh yet, and haven't been the least impressed with it in pictures (looks too much like a Solara in body). But I haven't read a bad word about the coupe's appearence yet, and look forward to seeing one soon.

Don't expect me to change about the name though. I think a car named G6 GXP (or whatever alphabet subname it has) is pretty silly and confusing.

BTW: I agree 150% on your GTO strategy, Z284ever. Very logical on all fronts. :thumb:

It's good to read that the G6 is selling well, and considering olny one model has been out is striking. I've actually seen quite a few G6's on the road, and I must say it actually looks real nice out in the real world streets. Now hopefully with the GXP, coupe, and covertible models coming out, G6 will continue to do well and help keep Pontiac afloat.

You mean GTP..........

You mean GTP..........

GTP, GXP, whatever. :lol:

Like I mentioned in another thread, if I make this mistake and I'm a car enthusiast, other enthusiasts and the general public are going to make this same mistake. LOAB just proved that. ;)


Pontiac initially made that GTP line because they didn't want the name GTO on FWD vehicles. Now that they actually have the GTO, they can probally rename their other performance versions unless they are copying the "Z**" Chevrolet stuck on everything in the 80s (ie: Z24 Cavalier, Z26 Baretta...).

GTP, GXP, whatever. :lol:



Yeah, no kidding...

Yeah so what is going on with the GTP and GXP nomenclature?
Is the Solstice going to have both a GTP and GXP version? Because I've seen both bandied about foe the Solstice.

And the G6, is only going to have a GTP version?

Please, someone clarify this for us all. It is kind of sad that most of us here are confused, never mind the buying public.

GXP for Solstice.

GTP for G6. I'm not even sure if we're going to see a G6 GXP.

I'm not even sure if we're going to see a G6 GXP.^ why pontiac isn't considered a performance brand by most people.

^ why pontiac isn't considered a performance brand by most people.

Although I think there is room for improvement, Pontiac does have some performance highlights in it's line up.
It's just not organized in any sort of cogent manner that the buying public can understand.

I think Solstice will draw some much needed attention from enthusiasts though. Hopefully Pontiac can build off of that.

Although I think there is room for improvement, Pontiac does have some performance highlights in it's line up.
It's just not organized in any sort of cogent manner that the buying public can understand.

I think Solstice will draw some much needed attention from enthusiasts though. Hopefully Pontiac can build off of that.
when you have the most powerfull engine thats in a car(aura) thats similer to a pontiac(G6) then how can they consider pontiac an performace division. :confused:

and the 92 firehawk.

While the 92 Hawk was awesome, it was not done by Pontiac.

1989 was the last year, and it was ONE car.
My point is when was the last time Pontiac had all thier cars in some sort of performance group? Right now with the GXP and GTP models, along with GTO, NOW is the best time for Pontiac.
Its not a youth brand, never has been. Its a excitement brand. It needs to build more excitement like Infinity and Acrua do for young people who want to buy it. People should be going to G6's, not TSX's. People should be in G8's and GTO's, not G35's, got me?
Youth is the market, but if you dont have a car for youth to want, then you wont get thier attention. I dont think 17 year olds should be driving 32k, 400hp GTO's, but if they see thier neighbor drive one home from work every day, and hear the exhaust rumbling, and see the lines, and the awesome interior, and hear him take off when he gets onto the main drag....Im sure that the car will leave an imprint when it comes to buying thier first car, and seeing a G6 or a Vibe, carring the same design and performance.
Pontiac needs to stand for performance and near luxury across the boad, but Saturn is slowly taking away Pontiac's thunder.

And to be honest, if Saturn were to get a Camaro sister car...and with thier present design's on the Aura and Sky, along with the Opel Astra...I might be in a Saturn Camaro instead of a Chevy version.