The Future of Pontiac

Pontiac, without question, remains my favorite GM division in terms of its products, to whom its targeted, and for what it represents. It makes me very, VERY nervous to see the popularity of Pontiac faltering due to the "damaged" offerings and the fading image. No, this has nothing to do with the fact I earn $$ from the success of this brand (I want to get that out of some people's heads right now). I work for my Pontiac-only dealership (RIP Olds...you are missed) one day a week, and don't make enough to have this be an economic issue for me. As a GM enthusiast, I'm scared sh!tless. Consider:

1) No Firebird, and the GTO is far from a roaring success. I blame dealers for a LOT of that though...the car is quite good, and the dealers squashed the initial hype.
2) Grand Prix is hurting. A lot. I love the new GXP, and as some know I had one on hold a few weeks back. If I already had my new job (in the process of looking for a new FT job), I likely would have the GXP in my driveway. Anyone who doubts the performance or equipment (inside and out!) of this car needs to drive one...NOW. .87g on a skidpad, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds...this thing is an LT1 F body with 4 doors and FWD. But the rest of the lineup? The s/c 3800 will save the GT somewhat for '06, but not enough I don't think. Sales are off...very off. Loyal GP owners aren't trading up. The dash is just off in this car. The GXP nose is better, but still not great. This car has never taken off, and has no coupe...a bad move. Don't pretend for a minute a coupe would be redundant with the GTO around...the 2 cars are way too different, and NOT ONE '97-'02 GP coupe buyer from my dealership has even glanced at a GTO. Some bought an '04+ and grumbled about having 4 doors...others simply have kept their cars and don't know what to get next.
3) G6 is phenomenal. GTP and 4 bangers and coupes and verts will help heal some of Pontiac's hurt...but how much?
4) Solstice?? :bow: :bow: That's more like it.
5) Torrent. You need a 3.9 NOW...otherwise, thank god the Asstek has left the building. We will sell all of you we can get.
6) Vibe. We sell a ton, and I have not the vaguest idea why. I really don't. Cheap interior, coarse engine, but hey...its a wagon with good MPG and its cheap. I guess that works.

So what does Pontiac really need?

1) New GP. Now. Not 3 years from now. Will we even get one? Some have hinted the GP is dead after this run???? Is the G8 the replacement? What's going on here? Anyone???
2) Pursuit. Picture a Pursuit GXP coupe and sedan done even more radical than the Cobalt SS. This would be the perfect Mazda 3 smasher...Pontiac NEEDS a small car to go against the 3 and upcoming SE-R Sentra...but we won't get one, will we?
3) What is the future of GTO? Lutz's Autoweek interview says "IF we do another GTO, it will be retro." Say what??? If??? I thought GTO + Big Chevy Coupe + Camaro were a go for '08?

Fix those above 3 items, and Pontiac would be back where it always was...GMs solid #2 division with a ton of sales. It scares the crap out of me that in June, Buick was up 38% but Pontiac was DOWN 14% versus a year ago. Huh? DOWN???

I have a vested interest in where Pontiac goes. My heartstrings are pulled by Camaros, but I will always have a Pontiac as a driver, so long as the offerings are worth it. In my immediate family, in the last 13 years alone, we've owned

-'91 Grand Am SE H.O. Sedan (Dad's, purchased used in '93...what a little 180hp RIPPER :D)
-'95 Grand Prix SE Sedan (Mom bought new)
-'98 Grand Prix GT Sedan (Mom ordered new)
-'98 Grand Am SE Sedan (Sister bought used from me in '00)
-'01 Grand Prix GT Sedan (Mom bought new, now is my sister's)
-'02 Formula (Dad bought new from me ...someday I'll buy it from him :D)

For me??

-'95 Grand Am SE V6 Coupe (Bought used in '00)
-'02 Grand Am GT Coupe (Bought new in '02)
-'01 Grand Prix GT Coupe (Bought used in '03)
-'99 Grand Am SE Sedan (Bought used with fiance 2 months ago)

10 cars in 12 years...5 new, 5 used. We've loved them all, and still own 4 of them. I pray GM can turn Pontiac around in the same manner they turned around Caddy. For me personally, I can't imagine not having a new Pontiac in my driveway, now that I'm close to affording new cars going forward. Ashleigh wants to replace the Grand Am with a new 2.4 G6 within 2 years, and if I decide I don't like the 5th gen, I already have $$ set aside for a 3rd gen fund and a replacement for my GP...I hope a new GP (or G8) will be it. I hope...

Though I was solidly Ford in the 80s and early 90s, I've always had a soft spot for Pontiacs. Probally because I would have sold my mom to get ahold of a Trans Am back in the late 70s. :lol:

Pontiac also has had more than a few intresting rides. Most of them forgotten. Anyone remember that at least one year in the late 80s, you could get every Pontiac except the Bonneville with a turbocharger... including the Grand Prix & Trans Am?

In the 90s, Pontiac went more for the "looks" of excitement than actual excitement. They became the Grand Prix and Firebird next to alot of wannabes.

Pontac has during my "automotive life" been about being obnoxious looking. Too much cladding, too much scoop, too much spoiler, much too big "screaming chicken" hood decal. And Pontiac is the ONLY car division on the plannet that can easily pull it off!

Pontiac is now going towards "sophistication", but it seems some people forgot how badly it failed last time GM tried it, back in the early 80s.

I wouldn't call Pontiac a "damaged" brand, as much as a "misguided" one. Losing the cladding was a mistake. Sure, the cars look great without them. But erase the split of the grille of all current Pontiacs, and the car could be a Chevrolet or even a Buick. Try that with a Grand Am, or a fully cladded "old" Grand Prix.

Also, what on earth is Pontiac doing with a Minivan? WTF is an excitement division doing with a Crossover? Why was the Bonneville every bit as dull and incompetent handling as a marshmellow soft Buick?

I love the GTO. Even money that it's going to be my next car. But I'm buying it because it's a great car, not because it's a Pontiac. I'd still buy the car if it was sold by Chevrolet, Buick, or Chrysler.

That should tell you something. :think:

I think personally that Pontiac is trading in "soul" for "sophistication" and it isn't gonna work. My sister is getting a Grand Am and she wouldn't even consider a G6.
I too have a soft spot for Pontiacs. :)

I'm still holding out hope for a Solstice coupe :o

other than that, not much at Pontiac really gets me too excited right now. The GTO is nice, but that's it - it' sjust nice.

....Hopefully the next gen GTO will have more inspirational styling and about (at least) 300 lbs less weight than the current one :)

I only want another Pontiac if its a car worth owning. For my fiance's tastes, a 2.4 G6 will be perfect for her. For me, the 6 speed GTP coupe is getting up there on my list, but after upsizing to a GP, a G6 feels a little small. GTO is simply too expensive for a driver IMO, therefore I am praying this G8 materializes and really becomes something special.

I agree there was all too often too much cladding on Pontiacs, and in all honesty I welcome the change. I'm not sure if you're referring to the '97-'03 GPs with the "old Grand Prix" comment or not, but one thing I love about my car is that its virtually cladding free. There are lower gfx on a GT and GTP that are subtle and blend into the overall shape. No clunky, chunky streaks or cladding across the midsection like '88-'96 GPs or any Grand Am made before '03! Style is what made me love those cars, and my mom's '98 and '01 GTs were both stylish cars that got a ton of compliments. I've been shocked how many people have actually come into the dealership and asked about "that Grand Prix on the side...is it for sale?" Amazing what updated chrome wheels did for the look of mine :D I get a ton of compliments on my car, and its an 8 year old design!

guion,
I know what you mean about removing the nose of any current Pontiac and it could be a Chevy, and I am hoping that's about to change. However, I think the G6 is dead on. I love the style...especially the coupe. The car is not the sales performer Grand Am was because there's only been 2 models available...that will change.

And FWIW, Grand Am is why I'm glad Pontiac is changing direction. I really liked my '95 SE coupe way back when...but my '02 GT was way over the top. I let my dad talk me out of an Alero GL2 coupe and into the GT because "resale will suck on the Alero," which was true. But I always loved Aleros...everything it did super well was awful on a Grand Am. I know you said in a previous post Grand Ams had soul...I beg to differ :D The dash was tragic, the adjustable lumbar GT seat KILLED my back, the cladding was awful...within 14 months I asked myself "why the hell did I buy this?" I traded it for the GP and never looked back. The '99 SE we have now I prefer for some odd reason. Maybe its because I got a good deal on it :D But its also because the cladding on the SEs wasn't as gaudy (especially in dark colors), the 120 MPH speedo in an SE is far easier to read than the tiny #s on the 150 speedo in a GT, and the seat is way more comfortable sans lumbar adjustement (on a GT, even cranked all the way in pissed off my back). I won't get into the build quality of the car...lets just say it was not a good example of "the new GM." It was nice because it was brand new. Once that faded and the reality of 4 years worth of payments came into view, forget it...

So can anyone shed any light on the future of GTO? GP? Will we ever get a Cobalt version? Any answers would be appreciated...

Grand Prix: I'm so impressed by the GXP. It's just such an enjoyable car to drive. And I'm glad the '06 GT will carry on with the SC3800, and for a transaction price, probably well under $25K. What GP really needs IMO, is some tweaking. It needs a new dash/IP and revised front and rear fascias. Which unfortunately, I don't believe it will get.

G6: Ok, the coupe, convertible and GTP are almost here. G6 is probably Pontiac's most important product. I'd like to see Pontiac do more with it. AWD and HFV6 have already been cut from the program, however you can..... Get rid of the numb steering...across the board. Make a manual trans available for every model. Offer a SC or turbo Ecotec with a suspension tune like a 9-3. Sure hope the GTP isn't a disappointment.

GTO: Sort of a peripheral player for Pontiac. Too bad. Since when is a GTO a 2+2? GTO should be the RWD, 2+3, coupe companion to the GP GXP. I'd like to see it have greater sales volume, greater variety/more approachable variations.

I think personally that Pontiac is trading in "soul" for "sophistication" and it isn't gonna work. My sister is getting a Grand Am and she wouldn't even consider a G6.
I too have a soft spot for Pontiacs. :)

My friend, park a G6 next to a Grand Am and tell me which is the better car. Better looking, better quality...then drive them and see which is better. Take it from someone who bought a GA GT brand new...a G6, even in base form, is far and away a SIGNIFICANTLY nicer car, in EVERY WAY. I sat in a beige '04 SE on the lot the other day with the beige dash and interior...god is that car ugly inside. They cheapened the fabric, radio and trim bits significantly as the car aged...our '99 feels like a Caddy inside compared to that '04. They even took the cloth off the door panels and made them all a 1 piece molded crap thing!!!!

Tell her to please, please consider a baseline G6. Finanace it a little longer, and get a LOT better car than a used GA.

My friend, park a G6 next to a Grand Am and tell me which is the better car. Better looking, better quality...then drive them and see which is better. Take it from someone who bought a GA GT brand new...a G6, even in base form, is far and away a SIGNIFICANTLY nicer car, in EVERY WAY. I sat in a beige '04 SE on the lot the other day with the beige dash and interior...god is that car ugly inside. They cheapened the fabric, radio and trim bits significantly as the car aged...our '99 feels like a Caddy inside compared to that '04. They even took the cloth off the door panels and made them all a 1 piece molded crap thing!!!!

Tell her to please, please consider a baseline G6. Finanace it a little longer, and get a LOT better car than a used GA.
She is so set on a GA you wouldn't believe. She loves everything about them. Personally, I think the G6 is a nice car, but doesn't scream "soul" (more like whispers) to me. Maybe the coupe will change my opinion, but I don't know. I like a cleaner look, but as I remembered, I always thought of Pontiac as over the top (kind of like those huge birds on the hoods. ;) )

Grand Prix: I'm so impressed by the GXP. It's just such an enjoyable car to drive. And I'm glad the '06 GT will carry on with the SC3800, and for a transaction price, probably well under $25K. What GP really needs IMO, is some tweaking. It needs a new dash/IP and revised front and rear fascias. Which unfortunately, I don't believe it will get.

G6: Ok, the coupe, convertible and GTP are almost here. G6 is probably Pontiac's most important product. I'd like to see Pontiac do more with it. AWD and HFV6 have already been cut from the program, however you can..... Get rid of the numb steering...across the board. Make a manual trans available for every model. Offer a SC or turbo Ecotec with a suspension tune like a 9-3. Sure hope the GTP isn't a disappointment.

GTO: Sort of a peripheral player for Pontiac. Too bad. Since when is a GTO a 2+2? GTO should be the RWD, 2+3, coupe companion to the GP GXP. I'd like to see it have greater sales volume, greater variety/more approachable variations.

:bow: :bow: It seems like you and I agree on a lot these days :D

Grand Prix: I know you said your friend got a GXP...its nice to know someone else on this board that feels the same way about the car I do. Its all in the drive with that car...its amazing. That's all I can say about it...you have to drive one to understand. And I agree...2 performance engines in the GP line will help. I want to know more about this "interior upgrade package" they're offering on base, GT and GXP for '06...haven't seen it yet. Also, they're packaging the cars a little different for '06...base models can now get moonroofs, Monsoon and leather. GTs get 17s and s/c 3.8s. So basically, a base model is now like a GT, a GT is more like a base model GTP. I like where this is going :D

G6: At least the GTP gets rid of the numb steering. Coincidentally, I was perusing the Malibu SS standard equipment list last Saturday...it also get the hydraulic steering as well. No pricing on it yet...I look forward to it.

GTO: It should be a 2 door GP...I agree. Making that car a 5 seater would have already helped me sell at least 2 more. So maybe G8 will be more aggressive and GTO be a little more versatile, and they'll complement each other???

So, does ANYONE know about the name issue with G8? Will they really give up the GP name after the debacle with killing the GA name? Does the car even exsist at all?

So can anyone shed any light on the future of GTO? GP? Will we ever get a Cobalt version? Any answers would be appreciated...

Read this thread (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=41715) for limited info on what is happening with the Monaro. Simply put Holden are going to pull the plug on the Monaro, and maybe preping a final batch, but no one is really sure when the plug will be pulled and Holden aren't saying.

Does the car even exsist at all? :no:

She is so set on a GA you wouldn't believe. She loves everything about them. Personally, I think the G6 is a nice car, but doesn't scream "soul" (more like whispers) to me. Maybe the coupe will change my opinion, but I don't know. I like a cleaner look, but as I remembered, I always thought of Pontiac as over the top (kind of like those huge birds on the hoods. ;) )

Well, if she does get one, have her get a GT I guess. I hated mine, but if she can swallow the look and the seat doesn't bother her (it doesn't do it to a lot of people, but the ones it affects? OWWWW after 100 miles). At least with a GT, resale is significantly higher, ABS is standard (remember, '03 and up SE is optional. If she looks at an SE, check and see if it has the "ETS" button next to the hazard switch. If it doesn't, no ABS, and I wouldn't buy it...assuming you guys get much snow), and the acceleration and handling difference is tangible. The 3.29 axle ratio versus the 2.93 in a V6 SE produced a big difference...also the GT had 5hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. According to C&D, that equated to a 7.7 versus 8.1 0-60!!!! Handling is significantly crisper in a GT, too.

:no:

I was afraid you'd say that. So, does this mean G6 will soon be Pontiac's flagship? Is that a real possibility? Charlie, tell me I'm wrong...please?

I have an '04 GTP, and I love it. I am totally baffled by the slamming of these cars. Good power, good handling, nice interior, rerasonably priced, and I personally think they look very sharp.Plus, in Denver, I see them everywhere. So I am not sure where people AREN'T buying them, but it isn't in Denver apparently.

As for the GTO, I really think Pontiac needs to have a base v-6 model, and the ability to choose the level of options on the car. They are really good cars from everything I have read, and seen ( though I have not yet been ab le to drive one :( ). Even though I have read they were always planned to be limited to 18k units max, going forward I think that they cannot make a business case(for the NA produced ones) for the car unless they take cues from the way the Mustang is sold; make a base car(3.9 literv-6?) that shares styling and gives alot of value at a lower price point, (and an easier to insure price point), then offer the ability to dress up either a base model or the v-8 model to the nines. Having performance upgrade options that are dealer installed, and not void the warranty, I would think would also help in increasing both manufacturer and dealer profit, while still allowing fair market pricing for the car.

I was afraid you'd say that. So, does this mean G6 will soon be Pontiac's flagship? Is that a real possibility? Charlie, tell me I'm wrong...please?


The G6 GTP sure won't pull it off.

The G8 would have been a rebadged Commodore built here. As we all know, that's not going to happen.

With Holdens 2nd plant going up in Asia, I hope Pontiac and Holden can share some future products.

Something Pontiac should really strive for every single one of their cars is superb handling that makes the car a blast to drive. If this means a stiffer ride, so be it. All I'm saying is that a base 4 banger G6 should come standard with 16" alloy wheels, 40 or 50 series profile tires, sport tuned suspension, natural feeling steering. Even despite the lack of hp, it should still be a fun car to toss around. Also offer an upgraded suspension option with even stiffer shocks, springs, larger anti-roll bars, 17" or 18" wheels. Another thing is that a manual transmission should be avaible in every car with every engine option on every trim level. If you are going to be the sport division, sell a fun to drive car. Don't sell sporting looks and a car that drives exactly like a Malibu.

Where is the mid-engine coupe? It would fit in perfectly with GM's new strategy of brand differentation.

You know, growing up my parents drove a Pontiac. When it was time for a new car us kids would all chant TransAM TransAM and our next family car was an 84 TA. When I got out of school and got my first real job and I went out buy my first new car I bought, well look at my name. So it hurts me to say "Turn Pontiac into the mommy mobile division, Aim them at women"

If you remember this post about an article in Forbes about what sex buys what cars.
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373939&highlight=women


The Most Feminine Brands
Ranking Brand Percentage of Female Registrants This Year
1 Pontiac 53.0 percent
2 Hyundai 47.3 percent
3 Toyota 47.3 percent
4 Volkswagen 46.9 percent
5 Suzuki 45.8 percent

They already have the only brand that sells > 50% to broads. That is their existing customer base. They should try and grow it rather than risking what they have now in an effort to find a new customer base.

Like it or not Pontiac is the Oprah brand. Put the gaudy plastic back on, chicks dig it.

Jason, she is definately getting a GT. Her eyes were set on one since her ex let her drive his. I also made sure she didn't get the SE because, simply put, it just doesn't feel right compared to a GT. Didn't know they had a rear gear upgrade too though. It's nice to know. :)

Pontiac needs a 1 series sized sedan/coupe/hatch built off of Kappa with the Solstice engines.

I don't know...it concerns me that there are no definate products coming to Pontiac in the next 5 years. Is the writing on the wall? If it is, then it's quite sad because Pontiac really is one of the "less" damaged brands GM has. I think GM needs to realize that basically all their brands are "damaged" because they are a damaged company. Pontiac has so much potential - especially with my age group. I think Lutz is wrong with his "total performance" thing for Pontiac. Handling is never a bad thing, but Pontiacs need brutal acceleration, and at the end of the day, that is still what a stop light oriented America considers to be performance. I think they use "total performance" so that they can point to a Torrent and go "look it has 'sport tuned' handling - it's Total Performance!"

One thing that will make me very, very angry is if Pontiac has been sacrificed so that the product/R&D etc. end up over at SATURN :mad: The Aura makes me think this is quite possible. Why? How much different is an Aura from a G6? I mean, really...give me a break. With Saturn having an exclusive dealer network, its way easier to put a bullet in Pontiac and kill the "overlap" than to shut down Saturn. Read my lips...Chevy, Caddy and Saturn will always be safe. The "intermediate" trio there? One will die, and it won't be GMC.

There is a reason GM is so hot to consolidate dealers. That means less buyouts if/when the axe comes. If they starve Pontiac for product, its inevitable it will die. I agree...the lack of new product is making me scared. No confirmation of a GP replacement and a GTO replacement, the LaCrosse potentially downsizing to Epsilon next time, and all these new products for Buick over Pontiac? I think we're seeing something...

Which is the whole point of this thread. WHAT IS GOING ON? Or is what I said above really what is going on?

I hope I don't take this thread in a different tangent but, can anyone here (engineers, designers and management types) please tell me what is so hard about identifying a brand's identity and then coming out with product that fits the mold? I mean, there's lots of members here who have fantastic ideas (maybe some wouldn't be feasible or have a business case) but it shouldn't be that difficult to give Pontiac, the "Excitement" division of GM, some actual excitement. As was mentioned already, all models should have manual transmissions offered, different tuned suspension, the top performing engines, well laid-out and quality interiors etc. Wrap that around some sexy sheetmetal and voila, you have n Excitement division.

I hope what jason is saying isn't true, that Pontiac is intentionally be dried out on a vine to kill it. Mazda seems to "get" it, why not Ponitac?

Grand Prix is hurting. A lot. ........ Anyone who doubts the performance or equipment (inside and out!) of this car needs to drive one...NOW. .87g on a skidpad, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds

I don't know about that. At the local autocross school last week some guy brought a GTP. He had an undrive pulley on it and even took out one of his headlights for better airflow. It was the joke of the day. Poor guy looked like he was driving an SUV out there. Its tires were howling, its body was leaning, and it ran the slowest times of the day. Even the guys instructor couldn't get it to do anything. One of the other instructors mentioned that it looked like they were driving two cars out there. "the tank" is what most people called it. I'm sure they're good hwy cruisers, but performance cars they are not.

I don't know about that. At the local autocross school last week some guy brought a GTP. He had an undrive pulley on it and even took out one of his headlights for better airflow. It was the joke of the day. Poor guy looked like he was driving an SUV out there. Its tires were howling, its body was leaning, and it ran the slowest times of the day. Even the guys instructor couldn't get it to do anything. One of the other instructors mentioned that it looked like they were driving two cars out there. "the tank" is what most people called it. I'm sure they're good hwy cruisers, but performance cars they are not.

We aren't talking about the GTP though, he was referring to the new GXP...with the 5.3 V8.

I think Pontiac is crying out for an AWD performance model of some kind. These days an AWD car has automatic street performance credibility, it's a crying shame the G6 GXP will be so watered down (apparently) from the AWD HFV6 concept....

We aren't talking about the GTP though, he was referring to the new GXP...with the 5.3 V8..
Oops. Although I can't imagine it would handle any better with even more weight up in the nose of it.

Oops. Although I can't imagine it would handle any better with even more weight up in the nose of it.

Maybe the GXP has significantly better tires on it or something? :shrug: I know they come with 255s up front, don't know what the GTPs have, never driven either car.

I think Pontiac is crying out for an AWD performance model of some kind. These days an AWD car has automatic street performance credibility, it's a crying shame the G6 GXP will be so watered down (apparently) from the AWD HFV6 concept....


Yet another way they could differentiate a new Firdbird from a new Camaro:

Camaro: retro styling and traditional RWD.

Firebird: modern styling with AWD.


(I know we've at least talked about both retro/modern and RWD/AWD as ways to seperate the two in the past... how about combining the two ideas for even further seperation?! :) )

Yet another way they could differentiate a new Firdbird from a new Camaro:

Camaro: retro styling and traditional RWD.

Firebird: modern styling with AWD.


(I know we've at least talked about both retro/modern and RWD/AWD as ways to seperate the two in the past... how about combining the two ideas for even further seperation?! :) )

I still am not thrilled about the retro styling, but AWD would be a good way to differentiate the Firebird. I know alot of Firebird owners are going to say that that is a ridiculous idea, but without some kind of differentiation, there will never be another one (probably never will anyway.)

Firebird: modern styling with AWD.



YEAH!!

And it can be a 2.5 liter twin turbo 4 cylinder with a big wing and a hood scoop! Lets not forget the N1 Apexi turbo mufflers from the factory!



:no: NO AWD Firebird!

YEAH!!

And it can be a 2.5 liter twin turbo 4 cylinder with a big wing and a hood scoop! Lets not forget the N1 Apexi turbo mufflers from the factory!



:no: NO AWD Firebird!


I think you're going a little overboard.... just the AWD will do. ;) :p

Oops. Although I can't imagine it would handle any better with even more weight up in the nose of it.
According to Pontiac's website, the GXP weighs 17 more pounds than the GTP. A cast-iron V6 with a supercharger is not a light powerplant.

http://www.pontiac.com/specs/specs_content_files/specs_viewall.jsp?brand=grandprix

I hope I don't take this thread in a different tangent but, can anyone here (engineers, designers and management types) please tell me what is so hard about identifying a brand's identity and then coming out with product that fits the mold?
I'm none of the above (med student), but in my opinion it is because management has not put together a coherent or logical focus for Pontiac. Pontiac should not be a BMW competitor. That kind of thinking ignores the entire relevant history of the division. Pontiac was supposed to be the sporty or excitement division. Hell, even their commercials claimed that they were. A true "excitement" division is what is missing from the GM lineup. Chevy is (or rather should be) about dependability. Cars for the masses. You can throw SS badges on as many econoboxes and people haulers that you want but that doesn't make them exciting. Saturn... they are the quirky brand that started as some kind of mad scientist experiment. Point is that if you ask an average Joe on the street they will not equate Saturn with excitement. Caddy is the BMW/MB battling division. Buick is the old people division that is trying to go after Lexus, but I think they may have a good shot eventually. Comfort and quality over style. Hummer is for yuppies who want to look hardcore. GMC is trucks. Who knows what Saab or Isuzu are. So, where are the flashy cars that appeal to younger people that want something more than a Chevrolet? The cars for people who may be starting off in accounting but have a rockstar personality? Where are the cars that are fun to drive?

Pontiac should be the answer to those questions. The name even sounds like it should be able to kick your ass. The mission of Pontiac should be to make the Mazda division go belly up. Give Pontiac the right products. Mazda says they put sports car into everything they make. Why wasn't sport built into every Pontiac? Why do they sell a minivan? Why was the Bonneville a Buick with an arrowhead on it? Styling needs to say "I'm fast, and if you don't think so I will b**** slap you," without being too over the top :) You need to be able to get every model with nice wheels, relatively low profile tires, "sport tuned suspension" (whatever that term really means), at least projector halogen lights, and engines from powertrain that are slightly better than what you will find in the run of the mill Chevy. Even if it is only 5HP from a special airbox or some other BS. Promote the image. Image needs to sell the cars. The product needs to make the magazines rave and get you repeat business, but it will be the persona that will get you that first sale. Give them good marketing and commercials (a la Break Through / Rock n Roll series for Caddy).

I pray that they will not try to turn Saturn into the excitement division. What has Saturn's customer base wanted in a vehicle? I doubt it was excitement. Saturn was a brand that was built around customer service and dent resistant panels. Oh snap, I am having an MI thinking about dent resistant panels they are so exciting! When I think of Saturn, I think of a quirky brand for quirky people. Kind of like VW.

As you can tell I love Pontiac. If they screw it up too much or kill it I will be very disappointed.

Haz-Matt: As do I love Pontiac. But again, why is GM letting Pontiac whither on a vine? It just doesn't make sense. Why basically have sister/clone cars from Chevy and Buick and just slap an Arrow on it and split grille and call it a Pontiac? Do the beancounters really have that much say? Just fricken build exciting cars with style, and they'll practically sell themselves. What bugs me is that back in the day when each division built their own engines/suspension etc, Pontiac always had performance in mind. One GM went with corporate engines/suspensions, Pontiac pretty much went downhill. I know what Pontiac represented back in the 60's and 70's, and hate seeing what it has to offer today. :cry: Stupid GM. :mad: :rolleyes:

I don't know about that. At the local autocross school last week some guy brought a GTP. He had an undrive pulley on it and even took out one of his headlights for better airflow. It was the joke of the day. Poor guy looked like he was driving an SUV out there. Its tires were howling, its body was leaning, and it ran the slowest times of the day. Even the guys instructor couldn't get it to do anything. One of the other instructors mentioned that it looked like they were driving two cars out there. "the tank" is what most people called it. I'm sure they're good hwy cruisers, but performance cars they are not.

Obviously you don't know about the GXP, with all due respect. Look up one of Charlie's or my posts regarding the GXP and the way it drives. Better yet, go to www.clubgp.com, go to the GXP board, and do a little fact finding.

Comparing a GXP to a GTP is like comparing a 6 cylinder Camaro to an SS when it comes to handling...seriously. And I'm willing to bet the GTP you saw wasn't even a Comp G, which is notably better than a GTP.

6 Cylinder camaro has better weight distribution and a better moment of inertia with regards to left/right rotation ;)

Got news for ya...an iron block 3800 doesn't way hardly any less than an LSx does, so there blows that theory :D But I digress. Drive an SS and a base coupe back to back, and then tell me there's little difference :)

Oops. Although I can't imagine it would handle any better with even more weight up in the nose of it.

I'll admit that stock GTP's I've driven, feel barely more nimble than a LeSabre.

The GXP is a whole 'nuther animal however. Go drive one....you won't believe the difference. It really handles great, it's brakes are awesome and the LS4 is a gem. Don't know what else I can say.

...So can anyone shed any light on the future of GTO? GP? Will we ever get a Cobalt version? Any answers would be appreciated...
Read this thread (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=41715) for limited info on what is happening with the Monaro. Simply put Holden are going to pull the plug on the Monaro, and maybe preping a final batch, but no one is really sure when the plug will be pulled and Holden aren't saying.

Sad but true. Monaro is going to die soon.

However, Pontiac's GTO for 2006 goes into production within the next number of weeks & will be in showrooms this fall. And it IS set for a full year's production.

Pontiac GTO is also likely to continue for 2007 (a 1 year extention) IF sales remain strong. Before the anti-GTO gang start dancing, just a reminder that GM-NA had only a 3 year agreement to import Monaros as GTOs, and by original contract is supposed to end at the close of 2006 production, about a year from now.

My friend, park a G6 next to a Grand Am and tell me which is the better car. Better looking, better quality...then drive them and see which is better. Take it from someone who bought a GA GT brand new...a G6, even in base form, is far and away a SIGNIFICANTLY nicer car, in EVERY WAY...

I'll be the 1st to tell you the G6 is a superior car in quality, and in it's "rich" look. But the car somehow doesn't have the fun-to-look-at factor the Grand Am did.

I think that makes sense. :think:

My wife and I really liked the Vibe ...almost replaced the Envoy with one.

The HHR is going to put the hurt on Vibe/Matrix sales.

Sad but true. Monaro is going to die soon. With no replacement scheduled? I find this hard to believe with all the circulation of Chevy coupes amongst others. I could see them extending production of the current Monaro until the new generation is released, continuing both the GTO and Monaro, but just tossing them both out for good, that I have a hard time believing at this time.

Who's got a link to that story, where Holden says that they'll build VZ GTO's, as long as Pontiac can make a case for them.

So...

1) No new GTO is confirmed.
2) G8 is dead/misplaced/nowhere to be found
3) There appears to be no intention of Pontiac replacing the Sunfire with anything.
4) Consolidation of dealers is happening at a fast rate.

Read between the lines, gentlemen...my assessment?

If the G6 is not a smash hit home run, the writing is all over the wall...Pontiac is dead. Consider all the new product being pumped into Buick and Saturn. After the Solstice and the Torrent, there is not ONE bit of news on ANY new Pontiac? Is all this "gotta have" product coming out going somewhere else?

Consider Saturns move upscale. If Olds and Pontiac cannibalized each other, its obvious Saturn and Pontiac will even more so. Saturn is getting a full line of cars...Pontiac is being trimmed to be more "focused." But above and beyond a G6, a Solstice and a Torrent? We have nothing.

Someone who knows better please PM me or something and throw me a bone...tell me I'm wrong. I want to be wrong.

But I don't think I'm wrong. Buick has a destination no one else in GM has. Saturn is heading right into Pontiac's territory and getting all this great product. Add in the Saturn-only dealership structure that you just can't kill, and the writing is on the wall I think, if you look at it hard enough.

I sure hope it doesn't play out like that Jason......but your points are hard to ignore.

I still haven't completely accepted Olds is gone. And BTW, GM has NEVER recovered the sales volume lost by Olds either.....maybe someone at GM can acknowledge a lesson there. You know the GP GXP we've been talking about? Imagine a similar package on an Oldsmobile Intrigue (which was the sportiest W-car). Of course, anyone with half of a brain would package it and market it as the Oldsmobile W30 package. Of course that would require that one half brain.

I hope the G6 turns into a sales blockbuster.......................

Got news for ya...an iron block 3800 doesn't way hardly any less than an LSx does, so there blows that theory :D But I digress. Drive an SS and a base coupe back to back, and then tell me there's little difference :)
Barely, maybe... but it still weighs less and it has it's center of mass located further aft. Just pointing out that while the SS may handle better, it isn't blowing away the base car as much as you may assume.

But this is neither here nor there :) We are here to talk about Pontiac and why if GM lets them die it will be a sad, sad day.

Barely, maybe... but it still weighs less and it has it's center of mass located further aft. Just pointing out that while the SS may handle better, it isn't blowing away the base car as much as you may assume.

But this is neither here nor there :) We are here to talk about Pontiac and why if GM lets them die it will be a sad, sad day.

Yeah, I would say the SS outhandles well above and beyond anything the base car could do. This is of course do to its better tires, better tuned suspension, yadda yadda yadda, but I do see your point about the better weight placement.

Pretty sure a base v6 won't run anywhere near a Corvette; a 1LE Camaro SS will run next to a c5 (non z06) through a road course though, at least that is what I remember reading. I don't think Dave Hill was too pleased about that one.

I hope Pontiac doesn't go under, but it's hard to think otherwise...

Saturn is going to kill Pontiac. I am at the point in my life where I have to buy something practical (wife, kid, house, etc.) and look at my options at Pontiac- pay full sticker for a Torrent because it's a "cooler minivan" buy a vibe and not have enough room for the trips to Home depot or....

buy a Saturn Vue Redline with the bright colors, better lines, better wheels and ss mesh grilles.

Which one do I pick? I mean I love Pontiacs, I have a ton of them but I don't like them enough to drive something that makes me feel older than I am. If they got on the ball and offered some models similar to the Saturn Redline group, at similar costs (not a 45,000 GXP Bonny) and had them available when people came in to drool over the Solstace that could generate some sales. if they stick with what they got then I think Pontiac has 5-7 years left if that. I mean, what the hell are you going to look at if there is no Sunfire, GTO GP or Bonneville, all you have left is the Torrent, G6 and mabe an Aztek! They should get their act together and save it or pull the plug, don't let the division die on chevy life support.....

I hope GM doesn't abandon Pontiac. But it seems like every time I like something, it turns out to be a dark horse. Cases in point being the Firebird, the Grand Am, & the Bonneville. The G6 doesn't do it for me right now. Maybe when I see a GTP coupe in person that'll change. I don't understand this reluctance that GM has to allowing Pontiac to replace the Sunfire. After all, they don't have to use the Pursuit's body shell (which is the Cobalt w/ a Pontiac grille) they can come up w/ their own bodywork & interior for it. And for those that complain about overlap, look at the Malibu & G6. They don't look anything alike & have different personalities, yet they are built on the same platform. And I was under the impression that the name of the game here was to sell as many copies of each platform as possible to not only recoup the investment of developing the platforms, but, of course, to make a profit off of them. And I would think that the only way to do that is to give all divisions their own versions of all the chassis.

I sure hope it doesn't play out like that Jason......but your points are hard to ignore.

I still haven't completely accepted Olds is gone. And BTW, GM has NEVER recovered the sales volume lost by Olds either.....maybe someone at GM can acknowledge a lesson there. You know the GP GXP we've been talking about? Imagine a similar package on an Oldsmobile Intrigue (which was the sportiest W-car). Of course, anyone with half of a brain would package it and market it as the Oldsmobile W30 package. Of course that would require that one half brain.

I hope the G6 turns into a sales blockbuster.......................remember OSV?

remember OSV?

Yeah, but if it were called W30, I'd have to make it a point to check it out, just out of principle.

After the Solstice and the Torrent, there is not ONE bit of news on ANY new Pontiac?

Take a look in the August 04 issue of GM Dealer Edge if you still have it. It discusses a new Pontiac mystery vehicle. If you dont have the article pm me, I would be glad to email you it. If I were a betting man, I would say that GM has more than a Camaro to announce. :D

I'll check tomorrow when I go in. One thing I'd like to mention is that earlier this evening I was reading Car and Driver, and it claims a Solstice coupe WILL come online for '07 :D Now, if they've heard of it but we haven't I sense its fishy...but a man can wish :)

The fact that Charlie says I might be on to something scares the living crap out of me though...

The fact that Charlie says I might be on to something scares the living crap out of me though...

Don't worry Jason, I'm not harboring an ominous secret. I'm just agreeing with your deductive reasoning.

A relief...

My sales manager called me earlier and said our first G6 coupe (crimson red GT) just came in today. Full analysis and post comes tomorrow morning :)

The man said he likes the saturn vue, redline. Its weird that the vue comes off as a nice ride except for that whole rear suspension thing and how did a honda V-6 end up in it? Lack of GM R and D?


I am gonna have to read up on this GXP handling prowess that you guys are preaching. I am somewhat skeptical.

Well, with Pontiac getting grouped in with Buick and and GMC, I think that Pontiac can and should focus on more cars. Drop the torrent and make it a GMC or a Buick to compete with the RX330.
Pontiac shoudl also drop the Vibe. Cant go to far with a Toyota as your entry compact. Why cant we get a truly different Delta car for Pontiac? Make it a 3 and 5dr hatch. 2.2 150hp GT, 2.4 175hp GTP, 2.0 Turbo 230hp GXP.
G6 is doing well
Throw in a G8, something to fit in the space of a GP/Bonnie.
Top it off with GTO and Solstice, and you have plenty of cars for a sporty division.

And the question remains...will we actually get those cars? Delta = no. Vibe will stumble along awhile longer, and actually sells above Pontiac's expectations I believe. The one right now that really kills me is GP...the Charger I think will contribute to it getting eaten alive. The changes for '06 will help though...for that, I'll have another thread soon.

Pontiac Future = Give us a Aussie Ute. ;)

If Pontiac and Buick are each to be cut back to 3 or 4 models, the Pontiac's future will probably be just Vibe, Solstice, G6, and Torrent. If GM does develop a new Camaro, then I would like to see the G6 replaced by a RWD coupe and sedan on the same platform. I think that GM should sell its interest in the NUMMI plant to Toyota and develop the Vibe replacement off either the Delta or short Theta platform.

I think this would be a really great time for Pontiac to think about reintroducing the Firebird. I know Lutz doesn't like the car, and it doesn't fit with the brand's desired image, but if the brand is dead within the next few years there will be no image to worry about. A well styled Firebird with mild variations in drivetrains from the Camaro could do really well to, at the very least, generate interest in the brand, and dealer traffic. Hell, if the Camaro goes retro, and the Firebird stays modern, I would drive home in a new Bird.
Sounds like Pontiac wouldn't have to worry about the GTO and the Firebird digging into each other's sales on the lot either, because by the sound of it the GTO won't be around too many more years. With no Grand Prix replacement either (that one really pisses me off), Pontiac has to have something, and I don't think just the Solstice will cut it. Especially with Saturn getting their own version of it.