Well it's official...GM is going down the crapper

http://www.cnn.com/money/2005/06/07/news/fortune500/gm_closings/index.htm?cnn=yes

:( Say it aint so!

Here is another article with more details on their plans.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0606GM-Fix-ON.html

!#^!@# the union.:mad:

You know... I wonder if this might hurt GM's quality control... I sure wouldn't try as hard to build a quality product if I knew I was going to be fired along with all my friends and maybe even family members in the next year or three.:o

So if you don't hire someone to replace retired individuals and you fire some people then you think the company is going down the crapper?

Quick look the sky is falling.

Dude I'm a GM fan....a fan of the GM that used to be....bottom line thier products today are so far off from what the public wants its unreal....thier cars look terrible...in my line of work we use alot of rental vehicles....so I have driven alot of new cars and all I can say is GM cars and trucks compared to other brands today are junk...I literally hate driving most of thier cars and trucks...and I love driving stuff.....if they cant pull thier heads out of thier butts and make stuff people want and enjoy then it serves them right to be in the crapper....for flamming sake...yes I like the new vette...the GTO is a wonderful idea and drivetrain/piss poor execution of a car (big surprise no more after '08!)....of course the GM V-8 is awesome...but Cobalt SS...Malibu SS....dated trucks...Silverado SS (WTF)....ugly UGLY vans...FWD everything.....I could go on and on....GM needs to take a lesson from Dodge and Ford....grow some nutz.

350Z

Dude I'm a GM fan....a fan of the GM that used to be....bottom line thier products today are so far off from what the public wants its unreal....thier cars look terrible...in my line of work we use alot of rental vehicles....so I have driven alot of new cars and all I can say is GM cars and trucks compared to other brands today are junk...I literally hate driving most of thier cars and trucks...and I love driving stuff.....if they cant pull thier heads out of thier butts and make stuff people want and enjoy then it serves them right to be in the crapper....for flamming sake...yes I like the new vette...the GTO is a wonderful idea and drivetrain/piss poor execution of a car (big surprise no more after '08!)....of course the GM V-8 is awesome...but Cobalt SS...Malibu SS....dated trucks...Silverado SS (WTF)....ugly UGLY vans...FWD everything.....I could go on and on....GM needs to take a lesson from Dodge and Ford....grow some nutz.

350Z

So much to argue over. So little time.

Lets start with one thing, what makes GM cars junk?

They have as high or HIGHER quality ratings than Toyota or Nissan. Their plants are some of the best in the world.

So they make FWD cars, big Whoop that you don't like them, lots more people do. You are an enthusiest and therefore a minority-DEAL WITH IT.

What is wrong with the Cobalt SS? TONS of people love it, is it because it isn't RWD and V8? GET OVER IT! Not everthing is or should be RWD and with a V8.

BTW the GTO isn't dead or anywhere near the chopping block.

Ok man by junk I mean.........just sit in any new GM car the first thing that comes to mind is wow this thing is cheap...the product screams generic...I agree that quality wise there is nothing wrong with GM....I have nothing wrong with FWD....Hmmmm wonder why Ford and Dodge are making a killing off the Mustang...300C..Magnum...soon to be Charger..etc....GM offers nothing to compete with.....pick up this months issue of GMHTP...the GTO is on the way out...sorry...frankly I could care less what hidious crap GM deciedes to slap four wheels on and sell....it'll never be an '89 Iroc :D

350Z...outta here!

So much to argue over. So little time.
Lets start with one thing, what makes GM cars junk?

Piss poor design and a lazy-ass workforce that builds them.

They have as high or HIGHER quality ratings than Toyota or Nissan. Their plants are some of the best in the world.

I don't care about ratings. I care about personal experience in one of those crapboxes.

So they make FWD cars, big Whoop that you don't like them, lots more people do. You are an enthusiest and therefore a minority-DEAL WITH IT.

I dealt with this by buying an import.

What is wrong with the Cobalt SS? TONS of people love it, is it because it isn't RWD and V8? GET OVER IT! Not everthing is or should be RWD and with a V8.[/QUOTE

Tons of people love it? It's ugly and should have never hit the market. GM could have done better. Let's see those sales figures.

[QUOTE]BTW the GTO isn't dead or anywhere near the chopping block.

Poor sales can change that in a pico-second.

I'll never buy a GM again. Never ever. Down with their overpaid janitors/button-pushing monkeys/lazy ass builders. I saw that article as a victory for GM.

I used to own a 1992 Camaro
I now own a 2000 Trans Am

I'm a big GM fan, but i damn......their new cars are crap

So they make FWD cars, big Whoop that you don't like them, lots more people do. You are an enthusiest and therefore a minority-DEAL WITH IT.

then why are the 300, magnum, and mustang runaway hot sellers? the old ladies and housewives i see tooling around in 300s definitely aren't enthusiasts.

GM is just too big, and lacking in visual varity.

The vette is nice, minus the headlights
Thgrand Am sells well, ncie car
The Monte Carlo is like never talked about now
There's no poor man's sports car/coupe from them right now.

Well it's official...GM is going down the crapper
GM went down the crapper a long time ago...
Their problem is, they never went back up .... jus kept going further down.

What will best help revive troubled automaker General Motors?

1. What will best help revive troubled automaker General Motors?

More job cuts 8%
Better cars 62%
New management 22%
A merger 8%


A poll taken on msnbc.com

GM has a long way to go in terms of their cars for the most part.

I see people here talking about the Pontiac G6 being superior to the Honda Accord and the Buick Lacrosse being a worth competitor of the Lexus ES330.

WTF are you people smoking?

The same people that have the nerve to call the ES330 bland are now saying that the Lacrosse is great?

Wow.

And to make matters worse, the Lacrosse is a brand new design. The ES330 is getting a ground-up redesign and a boost to 280hp w/ an all new drivetrain in less than a year.

kyle, lexus really doesnt make much that most here would call anything other than bland. sure the quality is good but remember, these are the people that bought $35k+ cars with quality the same as a $15k cavalier. so its safe to assume they dont care about quality.

that said, i really only like the IS and SC300 cars. the IS actually looks good as well as has a decent aftermarket. the sc doesnt look that great but it IS 2 door and rwd. other than that the cars are overpriced and bland IMO.

UAWN3D.

Haha, i crack me up.

Ok man by junk I mean.........just sit in any new GM car the first thing that comes to mind is wow this thing is cheap...the product screams generic...I agree that quality wise there is nothing wrong with GM....I have nothing wrong with FWD....Hmmmm wonder why Ford and Dodge are making a killing off the Mustang...300C..Magnum...soon to be Charger..etc....GM offers nothing to compete with.....pick up this months issue of GMHTP...the GTO is on the way out...sorry...frankly I could care less what hidious crap GM deciedes to slap four wheels on and sell....it'll never be an '89 Iroc :D

350Z...outta here!


Don't be jealous or evil just because a Cobalt SS will eat your IROC alive. ;)

kyle, lexus really doesnt make much that most here would call anything other than bland. sure the quality is good but remember, these are the people that bought $35k+ cars with quality the same as a $15k cavalier. so its safe to assume they dont care about quality.

that said, i really only like the IS and SC300 cars. the IS actually looks good as well as has a decent aftermarket. the sc doesnt look that great but it IS 2 door and rwd. other than that the cars are overpriced and bland IMO.

I don't have time to dig up more side by side comparison pics of the ES to Lacrosse, but I just don't understand how the hell the same person could call the ES bland while the Lacrosse is not. Call the ES bland and I won't argue with you. It is meant to be to an extent. But then turning around and saying the Lacrosse is not... that's where I think you've gone off the deep end.:p

GM has a long way to go in terms of their cars for the most part.

I see people here talking about the Pontiac G6 being superior to the Honda Accord and the Buick Lacrosse being a worth competitor of the Lexus ES330.

WTF are you people smoking?

The same people that have the nerve to call the ES330 bland are now saying that the Lacrosse is great?

Wow.

And to make matters worse, the Lacrosse is a brand new design. The ES330 is getting a ground-up redesign and a boost to 280hp w/ an all new drivetrain in less than a year.

I am not a huge fan of the G6 interior but I would say overall its at least on equal with the Accord. Is there one car thats sold by an American MFG that you DO like?

www.moslerauto.com

Reading the 1st page of this thread made me feel like I was in the "lounge". :yuck:

Reading the 1st page of this thread made me feel like I was in the "lounge". :yuck:

that's because it was moved from there :)

that's because it was moved from there :)

In that case, I better go shower. I feel icky reading posts from some of those people. :p

In that case, I better go shower. I feel icky reading posts from some of those people. :p

:lol:

It just sucks to see how much everyone wants GM to die. I just don't get how you can say there new cars are junk. I think perception is whats killing GM.

I think perception is whats killing GM.

I agree 100%

Dan

The new Mitsu Eclipse has 263hp. Another body blow for GM. The Koreans 100,000 warranty, bold new styling from Chrysler, redesigned Civic in 06, Ford cant build the new Mustang fast enough. I see GM droppng below 25% of the market in the not too distant future. But not this month, with GMs employee pricing good for everyone PLUS the rebates. It looks like GM would rather give the product away than pay laid off workers 95% of weekly pay to stay home.

GM isn't going anywhere.

First, GM has over 20 BILLION in cash! They also have a ton of short term investments, then finally GM has multiple holdings that can be sold for cash in a pinch. It's like Bill Gates suddenly loosing a couple million a year with no new paycheck. It's gonna take a loooooong time before he's gonna run out of money.

Second, It takes forever to kill a car company. It took most of the late 50s to get Studebaker to the point where it was hanging on by their fingernails. Even then, it took another 6 years for them to die. Even puny little AMC took at least 10 years to bite the dust.

Third, GM actually seems to know what the problem is, and has already taken corrective action. GM interiors have gone sharply up the past few years, as have quality. GM also seems to finally be aware that putting everything into trucks and ignoring cars or treating them as afterthoughts was a mistake. GM has some pretty impressive stuff in the pipeline. They know they need to streamline their product development & approval process. They finally caught up to us from 2 years ago and realized you can't rebate yourself to profits & market share.

The issue isn't "GM going down the crapper" as was so eloquently put (at least for the "lounge"). The issue is whether this is enough to get GM to discard it's culture that became outmoded in the 1980s, and become a mean competitor like the Chrysler division of DaimlerChrysler, or Hyundai.

$20 billion in cash against 300+ billion in debts

is that even right? it's the number i've seen thrown around in print

oh well...

EMPLOYEE DISCOUNTS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!

$20 billion in cash against 300+ billion in debts

is that even right? it's the number i've seen thrown around in print

oh well...

EMPLOYEE DISCOUNTS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!

GM currently has 20 billion in cash.

GM's asset value is about $480 billion.

GM's loss this quarter was $1 billion...as in "one".

GM has access to a $5.6 billion line of credit.

GM's debt as far as I can tell is closer to $30 billion than $300 billion.

If GM had 300 billion in debt, it would be dead because creditors would be selling off it's assets.

Myth: BUSTED ;)

I find it humorous that everybody talks about JD powers surveys and how GM quality has gone up, wow the vehicle held together for 90 (round of applause) days quite an achievement for something that is the second largest purchase in most people's lives. People don't look at the long term in surveys and I'm willing to bet if they did GM as a whole would fare far worse if the results covered the first 3-5 years of ownership.
There is not a brand of vehicles that I can think of that go "ghetto" and by that mean visually falling apart, making bad noises, and having lower resale values. Hell, if you look at a 3 year old cavalier against a corolla or civic it looks like a piece of crap. Same with a Malibu, roommates mom bought on of the previous generation cars brand new, I though nice car. A few years later, piece of junk. Build a car that is durable in the longterm and people might start to buy your vehicles again. And for god's sake make an actual cool car that anybody with a regular paycheck can afford.

I find it humorous that everybody talks about JD powers surveys and how GM quality has gone up, wow the vehicle held together for 90 (round of applause) days quite an achievement for something that is the second largest purchase in most people's lives.

Obviously.... in the classes they won, they BEAT OUT ALL THE COMPITITION... once again... everyone.

And don't feed me any crap about them falling apart after 90 days. :rolleyes:

The last GM car I had to have warranty work done on was my 99 Z28... since then we've had a 2001 Monte Carlo SS, a 2002 Monte Carlo SS, a 2004 Grand Prix GTP, and a 2004 GTO... NONE have been in for any warranty repair.

ARe they 100% aboslutely perfect vehicles? No. I still haven't found one that is... but they function just about perfectly.

It just sucks to see how much everyone wants GM to die. I just don't get how you can say there new cars are junk. I think perception is whats killing GM.
I Also agree 100%! :mad: Not everyone wants GM gone, but it does suck that so many do! I would bet that many of these same types have been reading certain, so-called publications, all the while being brainwashed to believe GM is not The Greatest Automaker In The World. Hey look over here at this nice, (insert your fav. **itbox here), this is where its at not GM! :rolleyes: Fools!!!Keep buyin' the imports. I'm not buyin' it, GM Is going nowhere!!!! You don't get to be the # 1 Automaker by Accident! This crap is getting so friggin' old already!

GM currently has 20 billion in cash.
GM's asset value is about $480 billion.
GM's loss this quarter was $1 billion...as in "one".
GM has access to a $5.6 billion line of credit.
GM's debt as far as I can tell is closer to $30 billion than $300 billion.
If GM had 300 billion in debt, it would be dead because creditors would be selling off it's assets.
Myth: BUSTED ;)

dude, don't you have a conscience? how can you spout that propaganda when a simple google search reveals:

"The numbers involved are enormous: GM paid about $12 billion in interest on debt last year and Ford’s tab totaled about $7.1 billion. GM’s consolidated debt as of March 31 was $291.8 billion and Ford’s totaled $161.3 billion, S&P said." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7749386/

I wanted to ask a question...

I'm not here to bash GM by ANY MEANS! I'm just as big of a supporter as anyone.

BUT.

Something I have noticed on alot of Chevy and GMC (Have not payed much attention to other GM brands) cars is that they have 1 daytime running light out. This is on the newer cars that I am noticing this. I have noticed atleast 1 car with 1 light out on my short 6 mile drive to work 4 out of 5 days last week.
And this is not just a bad week, I have noticed this for a long while now.

I know this is not a BIG deal, but when there are potential buyers driving their current cars, and they see that...that is just one more reason for that potential buyer, to buy import.

Does anyone else notice this?

Normally the gloom and doom set may not have much to base opinions on regarding the woes of GM. But in this case, they have much of it right. The fault for the dark outlook lies not with the much maligned UAW or salaried workforces. Or health care burdens and government regulations. No, the burden for the current state of a once-powerful automotive giant, sits squarely on the shoulders of management.
This is a regime that has displayed its true depth of ineptitude over the last twenty years. Observe the record. The worst of it having occurred during the tenure of the individual who is currently CEO. Contrary to some opinions, he has had significant influence over corporate direction since the early '90's.
It cannot be ignored. It cannot be denied. It cannot be spun. The corporate culture at GM is a direct reflection of the people populating the upper ranks. With very few exceptions, (one being Lutz) GM corporate management culture is decaying and out of touch.
They are politicians and hangers-on. Good old boys with their primary focus on who to associate with while they work on their next promotions. And product? GM could be stamping out purple widgets and they could not care less. These are not "car guys" as they would have the public believe. Actual "car guys" who run most of the truly successful auto makers worldwide would never pull some of the totally irresponsible stunts that these folks do. Just look at the product. Recall FIAT? And remember that "like begets like".
It has been said before and it needs to be repeated. To save GM, a wholesale management change must occur. And not just replacing the current top tier with their subordinates groomed by the system. GM needs fresh blood to truly change the culture and allow a realization of the incredible potential that exists in a workforce that just needs inspiring, competent leadership.
That is it in a nutshell. Inspiring. Competent. Leadership.

Very well said, I agree completely.

Normally the gloom and doom set may not have much to base opinions on regarding the woes of GM. But in this case, they have much of it right. The fault for the dark outlook lies not with the much maligned UAW or salaried workforces. Or health care burdens and government regulations. No, the burden for the current state of a once-powerful automotive giant, sits squarely on the shoulders of management.
This is a regime that has displayed its true depth of ineptitude over the last twenty years. Observe the record. The worst of it having occurred during the tenure of the individual who is currently CEO. Contrary to some opinions, he has had significant influence over corporate direction since the early '90's.
It cannot be ignored. It cannot be denied. It cannot be spun. The corporate culture at GM is a direct reflection of the people populating the upper ranks. With very few exceptions, (one being Lutz) GM corporate management culture is decaying and out of touch.
They are politicians and hangers-on. Good old boys with their primary focus on who to associate with while they work on their next promotions. And product? GM could be stamping out purple widgets and they could not care less. These are not "car guys" as they would have the public believe. Actual "car guys" who run most of the truly successful auto makers worldwide would never pull some of the totally irresponsible stunts that these folks do. Just look at the product. Recall FIAT? And remember that "like begets like".
It has been said before and it needs to be repeated. To save GM, a wholesale management change must occur. And not just replacing the current top tier with their subordinates groomed by the system. GM needs fresh blood to truly change the culture and allow a realization of the incredible potential that exists in a workforce that just needs inspiring, competent leadership.
That is it in a nutshell. Inspiring. Competent. Leadership.


WOW. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Some people on here talk like no other car ever has any problems. My mom bought a 97 accord brand new. It had a cheap "wood grain" dash insert that broke! (It wasn't broken, it just broke one day all by its cheap self while we were driving down the road.) The glove box latch broke, and the driver seat stopped being adjustable one day. Then she got a '00 lexus RX 300. The paint is crap and has about 3 small spots that are peeling, the leather is in bad condition with about 45.000 miles on it, and it was in the shop about 5 times in the first 3 years she had it.

So stop acting like GM is the only company that puts out a so-so vehicle for the cheapest price they can. Honda and Toyota just have a way of making their trash appear to smell better.

The last GM car I had to have warranty work done on was my 99 Z28... since then we've had a 2001 Monte Carlo SS, a 2002 Monte Carlo SS, a 2004 Grand Prix GTP, and a 2004 GTO...

Man, I've been coming here for a long time now, I remember when you had the Z!

Man, I've been coming here for a long time now, I remember when you had the Z!


:lol: :lol:

We're all getting old!! :eek:

Some people on here talk like no other car ever has any problems. My mom bought a 97 accord brand new. It had a cheap "wood grain" dash insert that broke! (It wasn't broken, it just broke one day all by its cheap self while we were driving down the road.) The glove box latch broke, and the driver seat stopped being adjustable one day. Then she got a '00 lexus RX 300. The paint is crap and has about 3 small spots that are peeling, the leather is in bad condition with about 45.000 miles on it, and it was in the shop about 5 times in the first 3 years she had it.

So stop acting like GM is the only company that puts out a so-so vehicle for the cheapest price they can. Honda and Toyota just have a way of making their trash appear to smell better.
I just can't believe those vehicles fell apart, I thought only GM made cars that fell apart! :confused:( sarcasm) These companies have an advantage GM does not have. The so called automotive press! According to these guys that is the case, so therefore those who read that filth will be influenced by it! IMHO That is why you could drive those cars through a field of *hit and they would come out smelling like roses. These guys would just make excuses for them, they are working through the problems, its really a good car OVERALL, etc. etc. BS. Maybe some of those morons working high up at GM also read this garbage and would like to see them go under also. One would think this would not make sense, as they would be out of jobs, but if you consider what D80 has said about them not being car guys? Maybe more than that, they are rich flaming lefties who would just go work at baush & laum, or AMF, since they're not car guys and could care less if GM is around or not. I wonder what some of these guys are driving, beemers, benz, or other non GM rich guy garbage! You'll have to excuse my sarcasm I get rather emotional when talking about this subject. Gee , I wonder how many of these GM execs( obviously we can't lump them all in there, I'm sure some are Flaming Car Guys and love workin for GM! ) feel this way about the company which pays their bills? By the way hows the la/ times doin' over there? I hear its getting mighty thin! :cool:

GM is like the Lakers here in California most people only like them when there winning. If their not the best then people start to look deeper into the problems, like problems with bryant and oneal. looking for answers, then the comparisons begin, people stop likeing them. people are just accustomed to GM being the best, and GM thinks their past will keep them in business and the strongest brand. I say the most important thing gm needs to do is hire new designers make the cars more attractive, most important of all make rappers rap about them and put huge rims on them. :D

remember the good old days when snoopdogg said "if it ain't a chevy don't raise it up"

I find it humorous that everybody talks about JD powers surveys and how GM quality has gone up, wow the vehicle held together for 90 (round of applause) days quite an achievement for something that is the second largest purchase in most people's lives. People don't look at the long term in surveys and I'm willing to bet if they did GM as a whole would fare far worse if the results covered the first 3-5 years of ownership.
There is not a brand of vehicles that I can think of that go "ghetto" and by that mean visually falling apart, making bad noises, and having lower resale values. Hell, if you look at a 3 year old cavalier against a corolla or civic it looks like a piece of crap. Same with a Malibu, roommates mom bought on of the previous generation cars brand new, I though nice car. A few years later, piece of junk. Build a car that is durable in the longterm and people might start to buy your vehicles again. And for god's sake make an actual cool car that anybody with a regular paycheck can afford.

I find it humorous that you have no understanding of quality. Initial quality surveys are typically the most important. They give a direct reflection of your manufacturing capabilities. This is what our company uses; as do most.

You can do Long Term quality studies, but all they tell you is how well the vehicle is maintained by the OWNER. It really has nothing to do with the "Manufacturer". If there is a major design flaw, it will show itself immediately. A vehicle that is taken care of and well maintained will perform well. A vehicle that doesn't have regular oil changes and is abused will have problems

In my experience we have GM Trucks/cars in my involvments that have 300k+ miles on them and still being used as daily drivers. The reason you see so many "Junk"; "Ghetto" GM cars on the road could be for the mere fact they are still running; whereas the Imports from said era are all in the Junkyard.

The Solstice is approximately 20k, the Cobalt is less then 20k. If you work at Mcdonalds their might be an Aveo SS out for you in the near future. Stay Tuned... :)

dude, don't you have a conscience? how can you spout that propaganda when a simple google search reveals:

"The numbers involved are enormous: GM paid about $12 billion in interest on debt last year and Ford’s tab totaled about $7.1 billion. GM’s consolidated debt as of March 31 was $291.8 billion and Ford’s totaled $161.3 billion, S&P said." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7749386/

Didn't your Mother ever tell you to not believe everything you hear and read on the Internet.

And did you just quote something off of MSNBC?? :lol:

c'mon, you can do better than that! or can you?

the numbers have been all over the news. how much of an ostrich do you want to be??

you would prefer something from the drudge report?

or maybe Xenophobia.com?

maybe GM management can start quoting this thread! yeah!

"We're ok, because certain authorities have claimed we are not in financial trouble at all!! Everything else is false!!"

:lol: :lol:

Propaganda, Ya gotta love that one! I guess micheal moore movies are based entirely on fact! :p Hi my name is Pope Benedict! :p I see alot of GM cars with headlights out so I guess GM quality is going down just like the la times says! ;) :p :rolleyes:

Propaganda? You want propaganda?

Go to http://www.google.com; type "failure" in the search window and click "I'm feeling lucky" and see what happens... :p

Jesus Christ.

Mainstream "liberal" medias never cease to amaze me. Add "Google" to List.

***Removes Google from Search bar***

Jesus Christ.

Mainstream "liberal" medias never cease to amaze me. Add "Google" to List.

***Removes Google from Search bar***


i wish i could ****REMOVE CHROME383Z from CZ28*****

Wow, everybody alittle fired up today?

Jesus Christ.

Mainstream "liberal" medias never cease to amaze me. Add "Google" to List.

***Removes Google from Search bar***
Me either! They need a dictionary, so they can fully understand words like haulocost, and gulag ( excuse me if my spellings are off, but I doubt ppl are hanging on my ever word like many are with the liberal media scum) and stop printing lies, because guess what guys... many ppl take it as fact. Like the false kuran story that led to many deaths...more fuel for them so I guess they don't really care. I really hate to even bring up politics, and I never would except for the fact that those same ppl are salivating over GM's troubles like a pack of wild dogs, just waiting to pounce on thier prey. No doubt, they helped bring Mopar to its knees, forcing them to be bought by DC, and I'm sure they long to see GM gone entirely. I wonder when you say all over the news, what news are you refering to. If its not from FNC its probably agenda driven BS. The old news organizations are slowly losing there market as the public becomes more aware of what is going on. With FNC they report you decide! You always get both sides liberal & conservative, you don't get that with the other networks. Is it any wonder why they didn't want ol' Rupert Murdoch to have a network. Oh they are trying to change, but for me its too little too late! Sorry suckers! I am salivating at your demise just as you are at just the idea of my fav. companies fall. The product is much better than you are being told PPL... Wake up America! Oswald did it! It wasn't the CIA! Stop listening to these guys they are full of **it! :eek: Bottom Line GM kicks ass, and is a big reason the industrial world even exists today! Losing them would not be good for anyone. GM makes a great deal of military stuff/Liberal media hates the military ( oh I know they SAY they support the military ;) , but actions speak loader than words) , see a connection= I do! I'll stop now... For now anyway F-ing Bums :death: P.S. Maybe just a little fired up!

Haha, type in SUCCESS and see what happens

If its not from FNC its probably agenda driven BS.

:irk:

OK, dipsh*ts, GM's debt is not the fault of the "liberal media". It is the result of bonds that have been issued and rolled-over and so on for quite a while, and those sort of things tend to add up over time. Bloomberg, hardly a "liberal source", says that GM is in the hole $114 billion (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aQrlxkc5P.dc&refer=us). That's just bonds (I am unsure if that includes GMAC). They say that about $16B of that comes due this year. The Detroit Free Press says that Fitch's downgrade of GM bonds affected $196 billion (http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gm25e_20050525.htm). Keep in mind that in 2003, GM issued about $16 billion (http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/06/26/rtr1011773.html) in bonds to cover a pension liability of $19.5 billion.

Most sources peg GM as the third most-indebted company in the world, behind GE and Ford. Considering that GM and Ford together add up to about a half-trillion dollars of debt in a bond market that's around $2.5 trillion, one starts to understand the magnitude of the problem if they do a bit of research instead of assuming the kneejerk-reaction pose.

I never claimed it was. All I'm saying is that I'll trust someone who works for and is "involved" with GM for numbers much more then ANY media source.

Propaganda, Ya gotta love that one! I guess micheal moore movies are based entirely on fact! :p Hi my name is Pope Benedict! :p I see alot of GM cars with headlights out so I guess GM quality is going down just like the la times says! ;) :p :rolleyes:

If this is a shot at me for what I said about the headlights, I said nothing about just becuase the lights are out, the qulaity is down... I was simply asking if anybody else noticed this.

I never claimed they were either! They are helping people make up their minds what to buy, and it ain't from the General, even when they offer the same product (Vibe/matrix). But since you mentioned GE & Ford being ahead of GM in debt, Where are the barage of stories "IN The News" or anywhere else, about them going down the crapper? I haven't heard about any of those, and most of my friends know I'm a GM nut, no one ever said, hey did you hear Ford is going under! Where are the stories? But I have had friends come up to me, and say hey did you hear GM is Killing off Buick & Pontiac! None of these friends follow "The News" wether it be automotive or any other kind of news, and still they managed to hear these things! My Bitch about them is they have everyone brainwashed against GM, and just about anything American. :alert: OK how about Left Wing BS. Any better for you! Bottom Line...There can't be any Camaros without GM! Huh Huh.. Dip*hits good 1 musta lurnd dat in injineer skool! :rolleyes: What, did something we/I said hit home? Your not moonlighting as a journalist for the la times or anything are you? :p Well if so nothing personal! ;)

If this is a shot at me for what I said about the headlights, I said nothing about just becuase the lights are out, the qulaity is down... I was simply asking if anybody else noticed this.
No it wasn't a shot at you! I guess I used that cuz it was fresh in my head, I just used it as an example of something GM bashing press might say! But no I didn't notice it.

No it wasn't a shot at you! I guess I used that cuz it was fresh in my head, I just used it as an example of something GM bashing press might say! But no I didn't notice it.
10-4 :D

But since you mentioned GE & Ford being ahead of GM in debt, Where are the barage of stories "IN The News" or anywhere else, about them going down the crapper?


Ford got their turn in the spotlight a few years ago, and I'm sure they'll enjoy the same opportunity in the near future. GE avoids attention by, you know, consistantly making money and avoiding the sort of dumb management decisions that result in billions of lost shareholder value.


My Bitch about them is they have everyone brainwashed against GM, and just about anything American.


That same bias must be the reason why Toyota's ball-joint recall and problems with Prius software got front-page attention on the websites of MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN. Get this - the press loves bad news, regardless of who it comes from. Companies wishing to avoid bad press would be advised to avoid doing dumb stuff.


OK how about Left Wing BS. Any better for you! Bottom Line...There can't be any Camaros without GM! Huh Huh.. Dip*hits good 1 musta lurnd dat in injineer skool! :rolleyes: What, did something we/I said hit home? Your not moonlighting as a journalist for the la times or anything are you? :p Well if so nothing personal! ;)

Much more important to me than the Camaro is seeing that myself, my family, my friends, and my neighbors remain employed, and a big part of that is the continued good health of the domestic auto manufacturing industry. So, ya, something you said hit home. The first step towards fixing this problem is identifying it, and this head-in-the-sand approach towards any of GM's major issues doesn't help anyone.

If its not from FNC its probably agenda driven BS. The old news organizations are slowly losing there market as the public becomes more aware of what is going on. With FNC they report you decide! You always get both sides liberal & conservative, you don't get that with the other networks. Is it any wonder why they didn't want ol' Rupert Murdoch to have a network.

Do you really believe that horsesh!t drivel you typed there? I mean, really? "We report...you decide..." my ass.

More like "If I want amusement instead of actual news, I turn on FNC to see what crap they're pulling out of their ass today." They report, I laugh, then turn to a channel with, you know, actual NEWS.

Which channel is it you say I can get this "actual news" from Enlighten me! Please! :rolleyes:

This thread should have stayed in the "Lounge" :lol:

I can't help but agree with that assessment...but hey, Jason at least tries to keep different forums on topic.

Which cable news channel? Please, pick one. Any of them. For the love of God, not FNC. Their right-wing bias has become so well documented it isn't even funny. I mean, if you're a card-carrying, flag-waving, dirt-chewing yee hah who loves to be spoon fed the news, then yeah...FNC is phenomenal.

For those who actually think? I'll take CNN or MSNBC, thanks very much. Ever read anything by Al Franken? I'm sure you'll feed me a littany on how he's left-wing biased, but I actually took the time to do some Lexis-Nexis searches utilizing the same search criteria he used in one of his books, for a paper I had to do for a class. He's actually amazingly accurate. And he hates FNC. As do I ;)

Sorry to derail the thread, but something tells me it wasn't going anywhere anyway!

I watch FNC, and I watch CNN. CNN has an obvious "left" wing bias, FNC has an obvious "right" wing bias. I don't think there's a media outlet that doesn't have one or the other. Pick your side, watch what you want and move on.

FNC get's alot of slamming because it is the only "right" wing station. But they are also doing suprisingly well so there must be more then one or two "white christians" watching it... ;)

Ever read anything by Al Franken?

You mean the high-minded and unbiased stuff like his book Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot?

How anyone can say that Fox News is way right, and then say that CNN and MSNBC is "actual news" has some serious problems with believing whatever is spoon fed to them. I do agree that FNC is somewhat right, but they ALSO report what would be considered favorable to the lefties. Something CNN or MSNBC wont do without adding a few unrealted jabs at The Bush Admin or or the War in Iraq. I have a freind who believes all the stories about The moon landing being faked, The Kenedy assasination being a set up, and the war being over strictly Oil. He always comes to me with some stupid story he heard on CNN and he tells it just like he saw it with his own two eyes. Good guy. Love him to death, but he's just gullible.

***Are we trying to get this lounge thread locked?***

Wally - i mean ERIC's back!! bravo!!

but as you can see, no good deed goes unpunished here

GM's sales have tumbled 7 percent for the first five months of the year, and the company has also been hurt by what Wagoner has called "fewer high-profit SUVs, more lower profit cars." I see this as a partial result of lost manufacturing jobs, the very demographic that buys GM cars and trucks. It's probably helping the market shrink faster than the Chinese...
As more continual downsizing occurs, by attrition or layoffs, the more the market is reduced...I see it as a catch 22...cuts equals more people with less wages, equals more cuts.......but what do I know?
(I'm UAW, it's ALL my fault.)

You mean the high-minded and unbiased stuff like his book Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot?

Yeah, that was funny :D Admittedly somewhat biased, and I did not quote that work for my paper.

But at least the title is correct...Rush Limbaugh IS a Big Fat Idiot :D

Yeah, that was funny :D Admittedly somewhat biased, and I did not quote that work for my paper.

But at least the title is correct...Rush Limbaugh IS a Big Fat Idiot :D

:lol:

You know.... I lean to conservative views.... and, more importantly, I am a lifelong diehard Pittsburgh Steelers fan (of which Rush is), and I can't tolerate him either! :D

A friend of mine is a big fan..... I try to listen to him objectively, but he is rather hypocritical in some regards.... also rather biased. Admittedly, I don't listen a whole lot though, so maybe it's just the times I've listened. :o

I've tried to listen to him...I've honestly tried. No way.

I thought I was conservative until Bush came along. I've discovered I'm a conservative in search of anyone but Bush :D Sorry to make this a political thread...the thoughts on FNC were just too amusing to ignore.

Ya know I just don’t talk about my politics anymore, no one can ever agree and you cant change anyone’s mind. I care not to listen to the other side because I don’t agree with them. Simple ass that. I’m close minded.

Now Lets talk about the camaro again.

Ya know I just don’t talk about my politics anymore, no one can ever agree and you cant change anyone’s mind. I care not to listen to the other side because I don’t agree with them. Simple ass that. I’m close minded.

Now Lets talk about the camaro again.
In the words of R. Lee Ermy! HOO Rah! Camaros Kick ass, and its just a matter of time now. :p :cool: P.S. al franken is a moron, him and michael moore should jump off a cliff! Wasn't cnn the ones who admitted, reporting saddam was a good guy all the while he was threatening them to say so? I guess they don't talk much about that though! :rolleyes: You make a great point, It takes a great deal to change ppl's minds from what they believe. That's precisely GM's problem... changing ppl's minds is a tough job for sure! I do think for myself, this is why I choose to step back, and ask myself HMM.. Self If damn near all of Phonywood, the lib-media, rockstars, hip hoppers, etc. are all screaming to the high heavens BUSH is Bad Um-kay, don't vote for him, Um-Kay, then Aren't they makeing up your mind for you? You have to ask yourself ...Self why did so many dems jump ship and support Bush in the last election? I certanly wouldn't ever bring any of this up here, cept that I think the Lib-media is at least partly to blame for GM's troubles. How else is it that the ppl's perception of GM, and the real facts about the fine products they put out are worlds apart? That's solely my OPINION, you can disagree if you so choose. The Camaro Will Be Back! And GM is going nowhere! You can disagree with that too if ya like!

meanwhile we are spending $150 million PER DAY for operations in Iraq

way to go

GE has a hell of a CEO with Jeff Immelt. Hopefully Wagoner can be as good as Immelt is.

Immelt will never curb someone's imagination, no matter how off the wall it may be. You'll be seeing some great products coming from GE because of it, stuff where you can truly see "imagination at work." It seems like Wagoner wants this attitude to rule at GM again, and that's a hell of an idea.