Gas Prices... let's hash this out (again).

All of the first-quarter reports are in now - and it's as bad (or good) as I expected it to be.

Here's the list...
ChevronTexaco (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050429/ap_on_bi_ge/earns_chevrontexaco_2) - "Revenue totaled $41.61 billion, which was 24 percent greater than $33.65 billion a year earlier, ChevronTexaco said."
Shell (http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/britainenergyoil;_ylt=AtNnY5aAaH8P5NVayuW.AosDW7oF ;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) - "28-percent increase in first-quarter net profits to 5.548 billion dollars (4.293 billion euros), as soaring oil prices outweighed declining production."
Exxon-Mobil (http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/earns_exxon_mobil;_ylt=Ap95PxaY2_46zEvW6dtIMAYDW7o F;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) - "...first-quarter earnings soared 44 percent from last year, due mainly to strong crude and natural gas prices. The company said it will boost its share repurchase rate by $1 billion in the second quarter."
Unocal (http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/earns_unocal;_ylt=AqG23RL0Un4EQynfug4KkkADW7oF;_yl u=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) - "...first-quarter earnings jumped 69 percent from last year on strong crude oil and natural gas prices."
Marathon Oil (http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/earns_marathon_oil;_ylt=Aoua6rMICfg8cKeacQj38woDW7 oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) - "...first-quarter profit grew 26 percent as the oil and gas exploration firm reaped some benefits from higher energy prices despite lower sales volume during the period."
BP Oil (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050426/ts_afp/britainenergyoil_050426172026) - "British oil giant BP posted a 29-percent surge in net profit for the first quarter of 2005, lifted by record oil prices and strong demand."
Conoco-Phillips Oil (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/28/business/businessspecial3/28conoco.html) - "first-quarter profit jumped 80 percent to a record $2.91 billion as energy prices surged and margins on gasoline and other fuels widened."

So besides Citgo, who have I left out?
Citgo does not have to report to US markets because they are owned by Petróleos de Venezuela.
Sure there are small re-sellers, but I think this is most of the big-hitters and refiners.

SO...
Anybody (besides me) wonder why all the oil companies are making record-breaking profits during 1Q2005 while the REST of the nation is struggling with inflation, healthcare costs, operating costs, and barely eeking a profit if not losing money?

Economics is not really that hard to follow...
Cost of material goes up... cost of product goes up... most of the time they go up proportionally - so the net profit stays relatively the same. When this happens, total sales $$$ may go up, but profits stay the same. This is called "passing the cost along to the consumer".

When a company's raw material goes up 10%, but they increase the retail price by 25% because "they can" - this is not "passing the cost along to the consumer", this is called "price gouging", and the results are huge jumps in profit while selling less volume.

Our President said last night that he will not allow price gouging to happen in the United States. Ummm.... OK. :rolleyes:

Oil companies sympathize with the people at the pumps, but they are unable to control crude prices. Ummm.... OK. :rolleyes:

My thoughts... :mad:

Please, discuss amongst ourselves...

At least we can use that $300 tax refund from Bush a few years ago to pay for some of the price increases of the the last few years :rolleyes:

at $2.30 a gallon I pay an extra $800-$900 a year vs. if prices were $1.50 a gallon which they realistically should be. :mad: :irk:

Even this years avg price is 50 cents more than last years price, that is an extra $520 out of my pocket that could be saved for the 2008 Camaro fund :(

Its capitalism, supply and demand. In order to lower the prices one of a few things have to happen. Either be more fuel efficient to lower demand, find another source of power to propel cars, or a new competitor comes along that is willing for some reason to slash prices and start a price war like the airlines are doing right now.

Its capitalism, supply and demand. In order to lower the prices one of a few things have to happen. Either be more fuel efficient to lower demand, find another source of power to propel cars, or a new competitor comes along that is willing for some reason to slash prices and start a price war like the airlines are doing right now.

It theory that is how it should be. If the price jumped from 99¢ in 2000 to $1.50 in 2005 then I would 100% agree with you. Unfortunatly there are a lot of factors that are driving prices artificially high. If it wasn't for OPEC, the US govn't fear mongering, Oil co. greed, Operation Iraqi blunder, etc... we would have a pure supply and demand market.

Hopfully Hydrogen and "plug in hybrids" will put enough preasure on the gasoline industry that by 2015 our current situation will be a thing of the past.

In the mean time plug in hybrids (http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html) are our best bet if we want a practicle car that doesn't run 100% on oil based fuel.

Lowering demand isn't going to help, and it won't happen.

At this point, America uses all it can get its hands on ... and governments are dependent upon the tax revenue generated on many levels ... not only on the semi-direct taxes to the consumer on gallons at the pump that you may actually see quantified, but also the severance taxes for taking it out of the ground and then the net income and property taxes on the oil companies and other players in the supply chain.

Fed, State, and local governments are not unhappy when domestic oil companies are doing well.

Hybrids and such will help to clean up the environment because total national consumption could decrease, which is certainly a good thing. Hybrids will not effect the price of gas, even to the consumer.

A major economic shift away from crude would cause one of two things, further increase in taxes based on the crude oil industry (easy target) or an increase in other taxes to make up the tax revenue stream. Probably both, one in the name of curbing demand, and the other because new revenue is needed in the long term.

You see this with sin taxes as well -- alcohol, tobacco, gambling, lottery. For some odd reason, taxes are increased in the name of curbing demand, yet the revenue streams are dedicated to permanent expenses such as education.

Hopfully Hydrogen and "plug in hybrids" will put enough preasure on the gasoline industry that by 2015 our current situation will be a thing of the past.

In the mean time plug in hybrids (http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html) are our best bet if we want a practicle car that doesn't run 100% on oil based fuel.

As a person who's paying just about the highest residential power rates in North America, I can only say that the idea of a plug-in-hybrid is just plain silly. Since, my cost/kilowatt hour is astronomical why the heck would I want to plug in a car?

I love how events in our nation and around the world have an effect on gas thats all ready in the tanks at stations.

Uh oh there is a fire at a refinery, gas prices go up .20 gal. overnight. There is a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico gas prices go up .25 gal. overnight, etc.,etc. Then it takes weeks for the price to trickle back down. There is no overnight jump back down. :rolleyes:

They use everything as an excuse to "temporary" raise gas prices.

I love how events in our nation and around the world have an effect on gas thats all ready in the tanks at stations.

Uh oh there is a fire at a refinery, gas prices go up .20 gal. overnight. There is a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico gas prices go up .25 gal. overnight, etc.,etc. Then it takes weeks for the price to trickle back down. There is no overnight jump back down. :rolleyes:

They use everything as an excuse to "temporary" raise gas prices.

Say it again brother! :bow:

I love how events in our nation and around the world have an effect on gas thats all ready in the tanks at stations.

Uh oh there is a fire at a refinery, gas prices go up .20 gal. overnight. There is a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico gas prices go up .25 gal. overnight, etc.,etc. Then it takes weeks for the price to trickle back down. There is no overnight jump back down. :rolleyes:

They use everything as an excuse to "temporary" raise gas prices.
Kinda like on 9/11 when people around here were in lines at the gas station paying around $4.50ish a gallon :rolleyes:

$2.00 a gallon in oklahoma

but it should be $1.50

Gasoline would need to goto to $5.00 a gallon and crude to goto $80.00 a barrel (when adjusted for inflation and impact on the GDP) to equal the same economic hardship of OPEC's 1970's oil embargo.

Hopfully Hydrogen and "plug in hybrids" will put enough preasure on the gasoline industry that by 2015 our current situation will be a thing of the past.


Hydrogen isn't going to put much of a hurting on anyone until we figure out how to get lots of cheap hydrogen from sources other than fossil fuels. Even then, hydrogen is going to be much more costly and complicated to deal with than plain old gas.

The main alternatives of hydrogen, natural gas and electric are all created from the same source that we get gas from now.
Many electric plants are run on oil or gas, though many are nukes or coal.
The only way I can see to get hydrogen cheaply and not from fossil fuels is to have a massive electrolosis plant next to a nuclear plant cranking out both oxygen and hydrogen. Sell the hydrogen for cars, oxygen for all of its many applications.

My question is: How high will the Teamsters allow Diesel to go before they protest, by cloggiing the streets around the Capital....Oh wait, that'd be Domestic Terrorism, I guess they put the HS plan in for hard times as well.
(Protest=Guantanamo Bay vacation)

What about vegetable based alcohol? It's a renewable resource, burns cleaner, & to the end use customer would be a transparent conversion. Granted, you wouldn't have the current fuel economy since alcohol doesn't generate the BTU's of gas, so you have to burn more of it to get the same power. That's why those flex fuel vehicle's have bigger injector's. But with alcohol you have a guaranteed supply as long as we have fields of corn & soybeans & no reliance on imports. With this scenario the fuel giants would be those countries with a major agricultural industry!

What about vegetable based alcohol? It's a renewable resource, burns cleaner, & to the end use customer would be a transparent conversion. Granted, you wouldn't have the current fuel economy since alcohol doesn't generate the BTU's of gas, so you have to burn more of it to get the same power. That's why those flex fuel vehicle's have bigger injector's. But with alcohol you have a guaranteed supply as long as we have fields of corn & soybeans & no reliance on imports. With this scenario the fuel giants would be those countries with a major agricultural industry!
that'd be us right?
there ya go bush, no reliance on foreign oil

What about vegetable based alcohol? It's a renewable resource, burns cleaner, & to the end use customer would be a transparent conversion. Granted, you wouldn't have the current fuel economy since alcohol doesn't generate the BTU's of gas, so you have to burn more of it to get the same power. That's why those flex fuel vehicle's have bigger injector's. But with alcohol you have a guaranteed supply as long as we have fields of corn & soybeans & no reliance on imports. With this scenario the fuel giants would be those countries with a major agricultural industry!
It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon of ethanol actually contains. This is taking into consideration the energy required to grow crops and refine the alcohol. So much like hydrogen, ethanol is more of an energy carrier than an energy source.

Willy Nelson is going across country supporting a vegetable based Deisel fuel, their vehicles are using on their Promo tour. Not that it's better, but it would help the Farming Industry a great deal if it takes off. And the competition with Crude Oil should help lower prices eventually.

Our border with Mexico is so lax, they should be giving us free crude for taking so many of their unwanteds. (no slam to those who actually come here to better themselves). We also should help Iraq's new government export all of the crude they have as well. After the Saudis, Iraq has the second most crude on the planet.

Willy Nelson is going across country supporting a vegetable based Deisel fuel, their vehicles are using on their Promo tour. Not that it's better, but it would help the Farming Industry a great deal if it takes off. And the competition with Crude Oil should help lower prices eventually.

You need a lot of petrol based gas to pick gather up all that vegetable fuel..if not as much as you end up getting heh.....

I read an email saying that americans should only buy gas from Sunoco, Citgo and Hess, since they buy no gas from Opec, they get it all from South America and other countries. Supposedly if all Americans did this, OPEC would be Fahqed!!!!

Tell everyone you know to buy Sunoco!!

I read an email saying that americans should only buy gas from Sunoco, Citgo and Hess, since they buy no gas from Opec, they get it all from South America and other countries. Supposedly if all Americans did this, OPEC would be Fahqed!!!!

Tell everyone you know to buy Sunoco!!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/saudigas.asp

Wow....I think its about time I invest in some of these.

gas prices have gotten so bad that my brother(who aint too bright in the first place)tried to run kerosene in his car.but the best thing in my opinion is to realize that prices arent going down and try to find a way to get better fuel economy without sacrificing power.

How about some numbers.


1. Saudi Arabia is the largest oil producing nation. Name the next 2.

Russia is number 2, and the UNITED STATES is number 3! ;)

Saudi Arabia produces around 7.7 million barrels per day.
Russia produces about 7.1.
We produce about 5.9 million barrels per day.

In case you were wondering. Iraq is 10th at 2.5 million, Kuwait is 13th at just 1.9 million, Even Columbia at 20th produces a mere 800K barrels per day.

The United States was once the world's largest oil producer and exporter.



2. What makes us so dependent of foreign oil if we produce so much?

We consume over 20 billion barrels per day!!! :eek:

That's right. If we completly took over the middle east, we STILL wouldn't have enough oil to supply our daily needs.

Incase you were wondering, the 2nd biggest importer is China..... at a mere 5.6 billion barrels per day!




3. Where does the US get most of it's oil???

We get most all of the 5.9 billion domestically produced from our own reserves (remember, we're the 3rd biggest producer). Yes, we do still export alot of our own oil! :eek:

Next, we get 17% from Canada. Then 14.5% from Saudi Arabia. Next is the 13% we get from Mexico. Next on the radar is Venzuela at 11%.

The United States gets less than 8% of it's oil from other countries, including the Middle East! In short, including Saudi Arabia, the US gets very little oil from the Middle East, and a relative small portion from OPEC.





4. Which country has the world's largest supply of natural gas??

Russia at 1,700 trillion cu ft. Wanna know who's number 2? The UNITED STATES at 1,500 trillion (not a misprint.....that's thousand trillion!! :eek: ) . At a very distant 3rd is Iran at a mere 742 trillion cf.

We also contain the world's largest supply of coal outside of Russia.





The lesson in all this, besides the fact that we and our close allies in Canada & Mexico control about 70% or so of our gas supply, as well as our prices???

It would take very little on our part to end OUR dependence on Mid-East oil. Converting all our powerplants from oil to natural gas or coal alone would probally be enough to drop the bottom out of the oil market. Add in converting all busses and perhaps some local delivery trucks to natural gas, and we are looking at relying on just our hemisphere for oil.

Get people out of Tahoes and back into cars & station wagons, and that would probally do it.


......now, why do you think these simple moves that would drive down the price of oil are ignored in favor of ideas that don't effect price??? :think:

because the economy would get pretty f-ed up real quick in laymens terms..

......now, why do you think these simple moves that would drive down the price of oil are ignored in favor of ideas that don't effect price??? :think:

Ummm... does the answer lie in state somewhere in Washington, Mr. President?

Actually, I can't even pick on the Prez alone - he's just a contributing factor. The problem is that the oil companies have lobbied so hard, they own MANY votes in government at all levels, so they are able to squash a lot of new ideas. Without government funding, it is virtually impossible to develop new technology (on the scale of alternate-fueled vehicles or converting all powerplants to another fuel) and the infrastructure to make the technology available to the masses. So if you control the government spending of developmental programs, you essentially control the market.

Now why would any of the multi-millionaires holding seats in Washington want to vote billions of dollars into developing hydrogen vehicles and refueling stations, when they all hold millions of shares in ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, etc that are yeilding huge benefits and profits to them? Hell, if I had about $100-million in the bank, I wouldn't care about an additional $300/month in my gas bill either. And if my company were raking in $billions of additional revenue and I were getting bonus checks worth $10-million because of it - I wouldn't want it to stop either.

You may proceed Guy.... your original post was going somewhere REALLY good (I think!)... :cool:

I pay the same gas prices as everybody else. However, I don't lay the blame on anybody but the consumer. We want it - and thus we buy, pretty much regardless of price.

How about some numbers.


1. Saudi Arabia is the largest oil producing nation. Name the next 2.

Russia is number 2, and the UNITED STATES is number 3! ;)

Saudi Arabia produces around 7.7 million barrels per day.
Russia produces about 7.1.
We produce about 5.9 million barrels per day.

In case you were wondering. Iraq is 10th at 2.5 million, Kuwait is 13th at just 1.9 million, Even Columbia at 20th produces a mere 800K barrels per day.

The United States was once the world's largest oil producer and exporter.



2. What makes us so dependent of foreign oil if we produce so much?

We consume over 20 billion barrels per day!!! :eek:

That's right. If we completly took over the middle east, we STILL wouldn't have enough oil to supply our daily needs.

Incase you were wondering, the 2nd biggest importer is China..... at a mere 5.6 billion barrels per day!I am having trouble with the math here. 20 billion barrells per day? 3 orders of magnitude greater than we (plus Saudi Arabia + Russia) are making it? Are you confusing daily with annual numbers? Or did you swap in the word million in place of billion when stating what is produced (by us and the Saudis, Russians, etc.)?

I'm not refuting your post (didn't even make it through the rest of it); I just don't see how those numbers can be...

With a population of 280 million, that means we use 71.4 barrels per day per person in this country... Yet Saudi Arabia and the U.S. together only make
16 million barrels per day (according to your numbers above), which would be 0.057 barrels per day per U.S. person.

Doesn't add up. We cannot consume 20 billion in one day, or there would be no oil left (we alone would be using more than the entire middle east and the U.S. and Russia) can supply per day, by a couple orders of magnitude.

Did I miss something?

I pay the same gas prices as everybody else. However, I don't lay the blame on anybody but the consumer. We want it - and thus we buy, pretty much regardless of price.

I hear ya....
but I - for one - am changing the way and the quantity that I am buying!!! ;)

Gotta go to work, but don't gotta go out for the sunday joyride... :no:

So are we - though it is small steps, it is something. For example, if we only take one or two of our three kids to something (they are involved in many activities), we use our little 4 cyl Ranger vice the Expedition (which now sits a week at a time without being driven, more times than not). It's cramped with either my wife or myself along with two teenagers, but it gets roughly twice the gas mileage around town.

Even with my new Cobra I changed the 5th and 6th OD grears from stock to the F-body spec .75/.50. Believe it or not, with KB blower, slowing the engine down 500+ rpm on the highway improved my mileage by ~3 mpg.

Little things...but it adds up. What will add up even more is when I retire and move back to Texas in 18-36 months, I have every intention of moving MUCH closer to whatever place of work I happen to find myself in. :)

So are we - though it is small steps, it is something. For example, if we only take one or two of our three kids to something (they are involved in many activities), we use our little 4 cyl Ranger vice the Expedition (which now sits a week at a time without being driven, more times than not). It's cramped with either my wife or myself along with two teenagers, but it gets roughly twice the gas mileage around town.

Even with my new Cobra I changed the 5th and 6th OD grears from stock to the F-body spec .75/.50. Believe it or not, with KB blower, slowing the engine down 500+ rpm on the highway improved my mileage by ~3 mpg.

Little things...but it adds up. What will add up even more is when I retire and move back to Texas in 18-36 months, I have every intention of moving MUCH closer to whatever place of work I happen to find myself in. :)

So now you have better GM parts in your Ford?

j/k :p

There are so many reasons why gasoline is priced as it is; it’s very difficult to single them out but trying to blame “the government” or more particularly the president is extremely narrow minded.

Let us not forget that we haven’t built a new refinery in something like 30 years (does anyone think demand has gone down in that time?).

Let us not forget all the multitude of gasoline formulations required by various federal and/or state government environmental agencies, all of which costs more money than would be the case if we didn't have all those formulations to deal with.

Let us not forget China which is buying up just about every natural resource on the planet right now including oil.

Let us not forget the always growing demand of oil/oil products in this country.

I don’t like paying $60 bucks for a fill-up any more than anyone else but frankly, we are very, very lucky we are only paying $2.50/gallon.

It would take very little on our part to end OUR dependence on Mid-East oil.

But why bother? Might as well use up their reserves while oil is relatively cheap and plentiful, saving our own for when supply tightens up.

So now you have better GM parts in your Ford?

j/k :p

Uh......they came from a Viper, not an F-body. ;)

Or did you swap in the word million in place of billion when stating what is produced (by us and the Saudis, Russians, etc.)?

I did.

We use 20 million barrels per day. China at #2 uses 5.6 million.

Apologies to all. :)

All this noise over $2.50 a gal? Here in CA we've been paying $2.20-$2.60 for the past 2 years. For any day you drive you're just as likely to find the prices have gone up as that they have gone down. :shrug:

These prices are insane, especially when you have a car that requires high octane. I hope it doesn't stop people from driving their fun cars and going to shows/cruises this year.

All this noise over $2.50 a gal? Here in CA we've been paying $2.20-$2.60 for the past 2 years. For any day you drive you're just as likely to find the prices have gone up as that they have gone down. :shrug:
you said it yourself, you live in ca
much higher standard of living than really anywhere else in the country (new york compares, etc.)

you said it yourself, you live in ca
much higher standard of living than really anywhere else in the country (new york compares, etc.)
you know... there ARE poor people in CA. Being an (almost) graduating student I happen to be one of them. If I can afford $2.50 a gallon without too much bitching what's different between you and me? don't tell me you're making less than $10/hr!?

ok, what were the fuel prices like before the recent hike then?

you know... there ARE poor people in CA. Being an (almost) graduating student I happen to be one of them. If I can afford $2.50 a gallon without too much bitching what's different between you and me? don't tell me you're making less than $10/hr!?

ok, what were the fuel prices like before the recent hike then?
trust me dude, i know it
i pay for college myself and am making 10$/hour just because i've been at this place for 4-5 years
most of the people i know get less than 10 an hour

i'm just saying that yea, prices will be a whole lot different just because things naturally cost more or less depending on your location
that being said, i know gas was between 1.50-2.00 i guess over the last 2 years
much less than what they charge now, i know that

There are so many reasons why gasoline is priced as it is; it’s very difficult to single them out but trying to blame “the government” or more particularly the president is extremely narrow minded.


You ARE aware of the corporate ties between the entire Bush Administration and the oil/fuel industry, aren't you?

You wouldn't try to argue that rich people aren't trying to get richer, are you?

You aren't trying to argue that the government should allow price-fixing, collusion, and price-gouging, are you?
:think:

You know, if your money means so much less to you than it does to everyone else, you can pay $5/gal or even $10/gal when you go in the store to make you feel better. I just hope the clerk has enough sense to till the register before they go home so they can get a "discount" on their gas purchase.

Personally, I have no sympathy whatsoever for these oil companies that are making money hand over fist, while people are losing jobs, plants are closing, and the economy is on the verge of sliding back into recession. If crude prices go up, I have no problem with oil companies passing that cost along, but they are charging us WAY more than the aditional raw material upcharge that they are seeing, and their financial reports prove it.
You sell LESS volume, but your profits (and in most cases total revenue) are up 25-45%... :no:
Try that with cars or blue jeans and see what happens.

People need fuel, and are being exploited for that need. Plain and simple.

you said it yourself, you live in ca
much higher standard of living than really anywhere else in the country (new york compares, etc.)

Errr...

The words you are looking for are "cost of living" not "standard of living".

You ARE aware of the corporate ties between the entire Bush Administration and the oil/fuel industry, aren't you?


Put the conspiracy crack pipe down now....

That dog won't hunt and hasn't since Michael Moore's hack-job attempt at a movie.

I get sick and tired of everybody bitching about gas prices. What were we paying 6 mos ago? $1.80? Now we're paying $2.40? On a 15 gal fillup that's $9 more. Fill up once a week and that's $36 a month more coming out of your pockets.

Does that suck? Yes.

Is it the end of the world? No way.

Try eating out 2x less per month, or do less partying and alcohol consumption, or scale back the hot rod parts everybody in this hobby charges up on credit, etc. etc.

And let me address the concept of buying oil from the middle east. Oil is a fungible commodity. It all goes into a global market.

Just for the sake of example, if we get 10% of our oil from Saudi Arabia, and we cut our consumption 10%, we can't take all 10% off of the Saudi Imports. All sources would drop 10%, which means we'd cut 1% off our Saudi oil usage. That's just the way it works.

OK, say we pass a law that says no importation from the middle east. Anytime there is a willing buyer there is a willing seller. A 3rd party would simply buy Saudi oil and resell it. Oil is oil.

You want to know why oil drops under $50 a barrel yet gas doesn't drop? EXACTLY the reason Robert gave....we have added no new refinery capacity since 1978 in this country. Oil is not the issue, there's enough oil being pumped right now. There's not enough GASOLINE and thanks to tree huggers who have blocked refinery construction we can't add more capacity.

Now tree huggers aren't solely to blame. YOu also have to blame federal and state regulation that has made it more difficult to locate a refinery, and local sentiment which is NIMBY (not in my back yard) mentality.

THird, no oil company is going to build a refinery because the return on investment is pitiful. Right now, with their refineries paid for decades ago and running at 99% capacity, profits are high because fixed costs have not gone up in decades. Amortize a $30 billion refinery project and all the sudden your margins dry up overnight.

The weak dollar has a lot to do with the price of oil being high in U.S. Dollar terms as well. Other countries who's currencies are stronger aren't seeing the same spike.

That is why oil companies are raking it in, has nothing to do with "gouging" per se, but its so easy to DEMAGOGUE big oil, the President and rich people and all you people fall for it like lemmings EVERY TIME.

"yeah, the man is keeping us down..." WHATEVER. Do your own research and stop following the pied piper of the hour.

Some RATIONAL and INFORMATIVE reading for those not too mentally lazy to read it:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=lynn&sid=agwqhJ53RMOU
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/tamny200504080923.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_leuffer/leuffer200411300840.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200503111239.asp
http://www.econstrat.org/news/cprestowitz_cnbc_09192002.html

I purposefully avoided this thread this long because I knew it would be rife with idiocy. I come in here to see what a few key people I follow have posted and lo and behold I was right....

Put the conspiracy crack pipe down now....

That dog won't hunt and hasn't since Michael Moore's hack-job attempt at a movie.

I get sick and tired of everybody bitching about gas prices. What were we paying 6 mos ago? $1.80? Now we're paying $2.40? On a 15 gal fillup that's $9 more. Fill up once a week and that's $36 a month more coming out of your pockets.

Does that suck? Yes.

Is it the end of the world? No way.

Try eating out 2x less per month, or do less partying and alcohol consumption, or scale back the hot rod parts everybody in this hobby charges up on credit, etc. etc.

And let me address the concept of buying oil from the middle east. Oil is a fungible commodity. It all goes into a global market.

Just for the sake of example, if we get 10% of our oil from Saudi Arabia, and we cut our consumption 10%, we can't take all 10% off of the Saudi Imports. All sources would drop 10%, which means we'd cut 1% off our Saudi oil usage. That's just the way it works.

OK, say we pass a law that says no importation from the middle east. Anytime there is a willing buyer there is a willing seller. A 3rd party would simply buy Saudi oil and resell it. Oil is oil.

You want to know why oil drops under $50 a barrel yet gas doesn't drop? EXACTLY the reason Robert gave....we have added no new refinery capacity since 1978 in this country. Oil is not the issue, there's enough oil being pumped right now. There's not enough GASOLINE and thanks to tree huggers who have blocked refinery construction we can't add more capacity.

Now tree huggers aren't solely to blame. YOu also have to blame federal and state regulation that has made it more difficult to locate a refinery, and local sentiment which is NIMBY (not in my back yard) mentality.

THird, no oil company is going to build a refinery because the return on investment is pitiful. Right now, with their refineries paid for decades ago and running at 99% capacity, profits are high because fixed costs have not gone up in decades. Amortize a $30 billion refinery project and all the sudden your margins dry up overnight.

The weak dollar has a lot to do with the price of oil being high in U.S. Dollar terms as well. Other countries who's currencies are stronger aren't seeing the same spike.

That is why oil companies are raking it in, has nothing to do with "gouging" per se, but its so easy to DEMAGOGUE big oil, the President and rich people and all you people fall for it like lemmings EVERY TIME.

"yeah, the man is keeping us down..." WHATEVER. Do your own research and stop following the pied piper of the hour.

Some RATIONAL and INFORMATIVE reading for those not too mentally lazy to read it:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=lynn&sid=agwqhJ53RMOU
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/tamny200504080923.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_leuffer/leuffer200411300840.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200503111239.asp
http://www.econstrat.org/news/cprestowitz_cnbc_09192002.html

I purposefully avoided this thread this long because I knew it would be rife with idiocy. I come in here to see what a few key people I follow have posted and lo and behold I was right....

One word for this post:

Outstanding.


Best quote in the articles above:

"Mr. TAYLOR: Well, don't link me into that, Roger, because I wouldn't
endorse that policy. I don't the United States is particularly wasteful
in the way it uses energy. I mean, we hear often, for example, that the
United States is 3 percent of the world's population, but we use 25
percent of the world's oil; that's true because we produce 25 percent of
the world's stuff. I mean, we use energy because we're a very productive
economy that produces a lot of things."

Sit on it and spin, Euro-trash.

Plain and simple.

There is nothing plain or simple about the energy industry. As easy as it it to picture the fat men smoking their cigars lauging it up while the rest of the working stiffs make them rich, it's just not that easy.

The big oil company's are making money hand over fist, no doubt, but there are thousands of smaller oil companies out there that can take advantage of the market and do well to help support the demand. Without periods of high prices like we're seeing now, the extra oil and gas production capacity supplied by these companies wouldn't even exist.

The worlds largest countries have decided to join the rest of us and adopt industrial societies and that takes energy.

The region of the world where oil is easiest to get is populated either by groups that would rather destroy the industrialized world than help it advance or others whose corruption is so rampant, no legitimate business will attempt a serious venture.

Oil is a commodity product, if you can figure out how to get it out of the ground, you too can sell it for these record high prices. In the long run, if prices stay this high, many more will do just that. If we run out of oil at some point, someone will make a killing developing new energy sources.

I'm not sure why so many feel entitled to cheaper gas, or that their vague recollection of supply and demand from that half of a semester of community college economics has made them an expert on this industry as well as the public policy related thereto.

If the oil company profits are so outrageous, go buy some Exxon stock and laugh all the way to the bank.

There is nothing plain or simple about the energy industry. As easy as it it to picture the fat men smoking their cigars lauging it up while the rest of the working stiffs make them rich, it's just not that easy.

The big oil company's are making money hand over fist, no doubt, but there are thousands of smaller oil companies out there that can take advantage of the market and do well to help support the demand. Without periods of high prices like we're seeing now, the extra oil and gas production capacity supplied by these companies wouldn't even exist.

The worlds largest countries have decided to join the rest of us and adopt industrial societies and that takes energy.

The region of the world where oil is easiest to get is populated either by groups that would rather destroy the industrialized world than help it advance or others whose corruption is so rampant, no legitimate business will attempt a serious venture.

Oil is a commodity product, if you can figure out how to get it out of the ground, you too can sell it for these record high prices. In the long run, if prices stay this high, many more will do just that. If we run out of oil at some point, someone will make a killing developing new energy sources.

I'm not sure why so many feel entitled to cheaper gas, or that their vague recollection of supply and demand from that half of a semester of community college economics has made them an expert on this industry as well as the public policy related thereto.

If the oil company profits are so outrageous, go buy some Exxon stock and laugh all the way to the bank.


Werd! :bow:

You ARE aware of the corporate ties between the entire Bush Administration and the oil/fuel industry, aren't you?

You wouldn't try to argue that rich people aren't trying to get richer, are you?

You aren't trying to argue that the government should allow price-fixing, collusion, and price-gouging, are you?


You are absolutely right, the entire Bush administration is "connected” to the oil industry and obviously, that is the source of ALL the problems in the world.

Yes...it's all one big conspiracy...the “big guys” are all in collusion and fixing prices to put the screws on the "little guy"...we're all being exploited (except of course for us rich corporate types who don’t care how much gasoline costs).

And yes...the "rich” are getting richer...how horrible...how awful.

Tell me, ProudPony...

Do you have any actual EVIDENCE to support your views or just rhetoric?

How many poor people have ever offered you a job or paid you a paycheck?

By the way, I once owned a record store so I guess I'm "connected" to the music industry and everything that's wrong with it too.

Put the conspiracy crack pipe down now....
On the contrary - you need to pick up some reality.

That dog won't hunt and hasn't since Michael Moore's hack-job attempt at a movie.
Irrelevant to any points that I am making, but VERY enlightening as to your staunch defense of a certain political party - regardless of their actions.

I get sick and tired of everybody bitching about gas prices. What were we paying 6 mos ago? $1.80? Now we're paying $2.40? On a 15 gal fillup that's $9 more. Fill up once a week and that's $36 a month more coming out of your pockets.
NO, that's $36 out of YOUR pocket, mine is more like $90/month. I drive 100 miles a day no matter what, and often hit 200-240/day visiting my plants. And pity the poor independent businessman or independent trucker who now has NO PROFITS in his true business because delivering the goods has eroded his margin completely. Get out of your little world friend, and look at the other people around you.

Does that suck? Yes.
Is it the end of the world? No way.
Try eating out 2x less per month, or do less partying and alcohol consumption, or scale back the hot rod parts everybody in this hobby charges up on credit, etc. etc.
Eating at home costs money too - maybe not as much, but you won't eat at home for free - and you have to drive to the grocery store sometime.

As for scaling back on the hot rod parts... that's a great solution. :rolleyes: So now, just when an independent business needs the sales more than ever, you (and everyone per your suggestion) stops buying his products. Announcement - "Dead, one more small business". So in your eyes, the oil companies can rape us, and we should all put independent businessman and start-ups out of business to allow it to happen. Again... genious approach... how about looking at your neigbor and his/her job for a change instead of dwelling solely in your own wallet?

And let me address the concept of buying oil from the middle east. Oil is a fungible commodity. It all goes into a global market.
Agreed. Fact is fact. It is called "commodity trading". The exception with oil is that there is this little monopoly that was formed years ago and is allowed to "dictate" policy to the world... it's called OPEC. Allowing them to determine how much oil they want to produce and sell allows them to control supply, and resultingly control prices, to suit THEM. That IS NOT in the consumer's best interest, and is far from the model capitalistic conditions.

Fungible Commodity?!?! Do you know what "fungible means? Replaceable.
Or did you simply copy that from the second article you linked to, 3rd paragraph, second sentence,"Oil is a fungible commodity, and so long as we are buyers, there will be sellers. Sellers were as plentiful then as they always are and the Saudi oil “embargo” was largely symbolic."

Just for the sake of example, if we get 10% of our oil from Saudi Arabia, and we cut our consumption 10%, we can't take all 10% off of the Saudi Imports. All sources would drop 10%, which means we'd cut 1% off our Saudi oil usage. That's just the way it works.
Again, I agree. There is no doubt. So explain to me again how the president can stand in front of the TV and say that drilling in Alaska is going to significantly reduce our dependency on foreign oil?!?!
This was YOUR call to open this can of worms - not mine.

OK, say we pass a law that says no importation from the middle east. Anytime there is a willing buyer there is a willing seller. A 3rd party would simply buy Saudi oil and resell it. Oil is oil.
I agree - no additional comment.

You want to know why oil drops under $50 a barrel yet gas doesn't drop? EXACTLY the reason Robert gave....we have added no new refinery capacity since 1978 in this country. Oil is not the issue, there's enough oil being pumped right now. There's not enough GASOLINE and thanks to tree huggers who have blocked refinery construction we can't add more capacity.
Bull****. The simple truth is that oil refineries are doing just like the textile industry, manufacturing, and all other producing markets... they are going off-shore for reduced costs and more lax environmental regulations. Oil companies can make refineries here in the US, but they don't WANT to. Right now, ships are hauling refined gasoline in from off-shore nations and introducing it straight into our pipelines. Ask SaraLee about sewing garments in Honduras, Nike about making shoes in Malaysia, or WalMart about getting Christmas Lawn Figurines molded in China... it's no different.

Now tree huggers aren't solely to blame. YOu also have to blame federal and state regulation that has made it more difficult to locate a refinery, and local sentiment which is NIMBY (not in my back yard) mentality.
Agreed, and explained above.

THird, no oil company is going to build a refinery because the return on investment is pitiful. Right now, with their refineries paid for decades ago and running at 99% capacity, profits are high because fixed costs have not gone up in decades. Amortize a $30 billion refinery project and all the sudden your margins dry up overnight.
They COULD do it, but won't. Why risk it? Superfund sites, EPA testing, etc. Not to mention the reduced profit (not NO profit, just reduced profit). It's easier to dump your waste on foreign soil, and reap the profits of the dumb American consumer.

The weak dollar has a lot to do with the price of oil being high in U.S. Dollar terms as well. Other countries who's currencies are stronger aren't seeing the same spike.
I just came back from 19 days in Germany. I watched the prices change DAILY. The Esso (Exxon) station across the street from the company I was visiting ranged from .98 to 1.12 Euro/litre while I was there. At 1.33 dollar/euro, that sweep is $4.94/gal to $5.64/gal after conversion. Back home, our prices were $1.83 when I left and $2.12 when I got back.
The mighty Euro is not impervious to change on a global commodity.
The "weak-dollar" argument, which you clipped from one of the articles (yes, I read them) reflects in the investment in US capital to compete - like the refineries, and such. It does not have any significant impact on commodity sales, except that commodity it is leveraged against like in the case of gold.
That is why oil companies are raking it in, has nothing to do with "gouging" per se, but its so easy to DEMAGOGUE big oil, the President and rich people and all you people fall for it like lemmings EVERY TIME.
Yup. Me... the stupid lemming. Deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid me, who can't see what's REALLY going on.
Me. I'm the one who said Saddam had nukes. I'm the one who declared war on an adjective. I'm the one who ran Arbusto Oil into bankruptcy pilferred the coffers, waited til investors sold out, then sold it to Halliburton at huge gains before converting my remaining shares to Halliburton. I'm the one who appointed Karzai (a Unocal Executive) to be president of Afghanistan. I'm the one who appointed Condy Rice (a Chevron Oil exec and boardmember) to my cabinet as security adviser. I'm the one who chose Dick Cheney (CEO of Halliburton Oil) to be my running mate. I'm the one who refuses to press for charges against Ken Lay (my biggest individual campaign contributor). I'm the one who signed an executive order prohibiting any investigation or prosecution of any activity funded by the Iraqi Rebuild Fund, then gave uncontested contract to Halliburton to support the war effort.

Yup, me, the dumb lemming.

"yeah, the man is keeping us down..." WHATEVER. Do your own research and stop following the pied piper of the hour.
Touche. Read something other than a friggin' Republican News report, and listen to something other than Limbaugh.

Some RATIONAL and INFORMATIVE reading for those not too mentally lazy to read it:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=lynn&sid=agwqhJ53RMOU
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/tamny200504080923.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_leuffer/leuffer200411300840.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200503111239.asp
http://www.econstrat.org/news/cprestowitz_cnbc_09192002.html
OK - so now I have read them. I find them to poise one side of the argument very well... the bullish side. Which I find not so surprising given the Republican stance on fuels and energy.

I purposefully avoided this thread this long because I knew it would be rife with idiocy. I come in here to see what a few key people I follow have posted and lo and behold I was right....
You should have stayed there...

See the next post for more "good reading".

Good reading...

testimonial from corruption witness (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HUD403A.html)
"David Rockefeller arranged for me to meet one afternoon with Jack Bennett, the treasurer of Standard Oil of New Jersey (the old Esso before it changed its name to Exxon). "The profits are made right here in the Treasurer's office," he explained, "wherever I decide." He showed me the broad leeway a vertically organized global conglomerate enjoyed in being able to assign "transfer prices" do as to report the overall profit at whatever point taxes were lowest on oil's statistically labyrinthine journey from wellhead to gas station."

"A carefully structured unreality--and one that has real-world consequences, to be sure. The essence of this game is that Esso and other oil majors were able to "game" the world's tax systems by selling their crude oil at so low a price to their tanker companies as to leave little income for Saudi Arabia, Venezuela or other oil-producing countries. This discouraged them from taking control of their mineral wealth, especially as they had no tanker fleets to move this oil. The corporate shipping affiliates turned around and sold their oil to their downstream refineries. These generally were located safely offshore in different political jurisdictions (e.g., Trinidad for Venezuelan oil). The oil was transferred at so high a price that despite the heavy capital investment in these facilities, the refiners and distributors reported losses year after year, decade after decade."


Oil Prices from the Energy Information Administration (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chron.html)
"1. OPEC begins to assert power; raises tax rate & posted prices
2. OPEC begins nationalization process; raises prices in response to falling US dollar.
3. Negotiations for gradual transfer of ownership of western assets in OPEC countries
4. Oil embargo begins (October 19-20, 1973)
5. OPEC freezes posted prices; US begins mandatory oil allocation"
Does this resemble an monopoly, or is this the model of "free-trade"?!?!

A great example of governmental intervention for the governmental good - in Pakistan. (http://www.dawn.com/2005/01/10/ebr1.htm)
"The government deregulated the petroleum prices in 1999 claiming that this would give rise to healthy competition among the OMCs and as a result, the consumer would be benefited immensely.
However, instead of asking these companies to compete, the government has actually put them in a room and told them to fix the price that they want. And since then the OCAC has been fixing the domestic oil prices in such a way as to enable the OMCs and the refineries to rack in millions of unearned profits while maintaining unrealistically and uneconomically high prices of the commodity inside the country which perhaps could have been justified if the world oil prices had gone up to say US$100 a barrel. "

I don't mind bashing Democrats either...
Here's a good one on Clinton.
CNN news Report (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/08/pardon.probe.02/)
"Rich had been a fugitive since 1983, when he fled to Switzerland just before he was indicted in the United States for allegedly evading more than $48 million in taxes, committing fraud and participating in illegal oil deals with Iran."
Of course we all know Clinton pardoned him going out the door, because Mark's wife enise was a MAJOR fundraiser for the Dems.

NPR report on price fixing in the MidWest (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1120767)
"The FTC concludes that the oil industry did not take illegal collective action to drive gasoline prices upward, but that individual companies did limit refinery production to maximize prices. "
Hmmm... what was that argument about refineries at maximum capacity... :rolleyes:

And finally, one of the best reads of them all - from a brave member of the Senate that is not bought out by an oil company (yet)...
The Federal Trade Commission’s Refusal to Protect Consumers from Consolidation, Cutbacks and Manipulation in America’s Oil and Gasoline Markets (http://www.senate.gov/member/or/wyden/general/leg_issues/reports/2004_ftcinaction.pdf#search='FTC%20oil%20refinery% 20capacity')
"But for years, the FTC has failed to act in three critical areas that have a direct impact on the prices consumers pay at the gas pump: oil company mergers, refinery closures, and anti-competitive gasoline marketing practices."

"the FTC continues to wage a “campaign of inaction” – that is, not just to fail to act on consumers’ behalf, but to refuse to act – where oil and gasoline markets are concerned."

"Despite all this evidence that gasoline markets around the country have become highly concentrated and, in these concentrated markets, individual firms can raise prices and extract monopoly profits, the FTC has failed to take effective action to check oil industry mergers."

Read this one, and tell me the senate reports, the FTC reports, and the independent investigations ARE ALL WRONG. Then tell me who is pulling the political ropes to keep the FTC inactive on these issues.

Also, please note the sources of the texts above...
Testimonials, reports, and journalism from NPR, CNN, GlobalResearch, and the US Government.
A little different than economics review papers and one Bloomberg opinion.

I'm game for all challenges...
Bring it. :cool:

There is nothing plain or simple about the energy industry. As easy as it it to picture the fat men smoking their cigars lauging it up while the rest of the working stiffs make them rich, it's just not that easy.

The big oil company's are making money hand over fist, no doubt, but there are thousands of smaller oil companies out there that can take advantage of the market and do well to help support the demand. Without periods of high prices like we're seeing now, the extra oil and gas production capacity supplied by these companies wouldn't even exist.

The worlds largest countries have decided to join the rest of us and adopt industrial societies and that takes energy.

The region of the world where oil is easiest to get is populated either by groups that would rather destroy the industrialized world than help it advance or others whose corruption is so rampant, no legitimate business will attempt a serious venture.

Oil is a commodity product, if you can figure out how to get it out of the ground, you too can sell it for these record high prices. In the long run, if prices stay this high, many more will do just that. If we run out of oil at some point, someone will make a killing developing new energy sources.

I'm not sure why so many feel entitled to cheaper gas, or that their vague recollection of supply and demand from that half of a semester of community college economics has made them an expert on this industry as well as the public policy related thereto.

If the oil company profits are so outrageous, go buy some Exxon stock and laugh all the way to the bank.

No, actually, it really is pretty simple... they have it, they control it, and we will pay what they want, or we will do without. It's pretty simple.

I agree that there is opportunity for those able to make it happen, but most small companies are consumed by the larger ones to maintain control. It's in the senate report i attached above.

You are absolutely right, the entire Bush administration is "connected” to the oil industry and obviously, that is the source of ALL the problems in the world.

Yes...it's all one big conspiracy...the “big guys” are all in collusion and fixing prices to put the screws on the "little guy"...we're all being exploited (except of course for us rich corporate types who don’t care how much gasoline costs).

And yes...the "rich” are getting richer...how horrible...how awful.

Tell me, ProudPony...

Do you have any actual EVIDENCE to support your views or just rhetoric?
No, I don't, but the senate does, and the media does, and several courts in the US and the UN have too. Problem is the US and UN (especially the UN) are as corrupted by big money as the companies doing the crimes.

How many poor people have ever offered you a job or paid you a paycheck?
Please look at your own question.
Better - How many poor people ever started their own small business?

By the way, I once owned a record store so I guess I'm "connected" to the music industry and everything that's wrong with it too.

If you were part of the price-fixing of CD's that major manufacturers admitted to in 2003 - then YES, you were. I got my $27 settlement check last year from that suit.

Do I suspect that of you - NO.
And if it was such a good thing, why is it now "once owned" instead of "lucritously profitable" record store?
Surely not because of high gas prices?!?! which begs the question...
How does any of the record store stuff relate to gas prices?

If you were part of the price-fixing of CD's that major manufacturers admitted to in 2003 - then YES, you were. I got my $27 settlement check last year from that suit.

Do I suspect that of you - NO.
And if it was such a good thing, why is it now "once owned" instead of "lucritously profitable" record store?
Surely not because of high gas prices?!?! which begs the question...
How does any of the record store stuff relate to gas prices?

My owning a record store has to do with oil prices in that it points out how obtuse your “connection” contention is.

Lot’s of poor people start businesses, many fail and some don’t…for those who don’t they may well become “the rich” that you apparently think represent everything that is wrong with the US. Of course for those who fail, I’m sure it’s because of some huge conspiracy to keep the poor man down and could never have anything to do with lousy planning, a lousy product, lousy location, a lousy work ethic, etc, etc.

I guess life is so terrible for you that you should just go eat worms and let the rest of us “rich” folk keep getting richer.

p. Me... the stupid lemming. Deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid me, who can't see what's REALLY going on.
Me. I'm the one who said Saddam had nukes. I'm the one who declared war on an adjective. I'm the one who ran Arbusto Oil into bankruptcy pilferred the coffers, waited til investors sold out, then sold it to Halliburton at huge gains before converting my remaining shares to Halliburton. I'm the one who appointed Karzai (a Unocal Executive) to be president of Afghanistan. I'm the one who appointed Condy Rice (a Chevron Oil exec and boardmember) to my cabinet as security adviser. I'm the one who chose Dick Cheney (CEO of Halliburton Oil) to be my running mate. I'm the one who refuses to press for charges against Ken Lay (my biggest individual campaign contributor). I'm the one who signed an executive order prohibiting any investigation or prosecution of any activity funded by the Iraqi Rebuild Fund, then gave uncontestes contract to Halliburton to support the war effort.

Yup, me, the dumb lemming.

You know its this **** that pisses me off. You bash the other guy for republican stances and then post this which obviously shows what your political stance is (and maybe alittle extreme too). :eek:

There are so many major issues that need to be tackled: leaving industry, Iraq war, North Korea, Healthcare, Social Security... but NO... Let's fight back and forth and get NOTHING done. You mention the above items and it is not anything a Democrat, or Indep wouldn't do if they were in power. Quit your bitching about the govt and actually try to support some causes rather then adding fuel to the fire and contributing to the complete standstill our govt is in right now. At this rate I'll be dead in 70yrs with no Social Security and can't pay for Healthcare. But even then somehow it will all be George W Bush's fault... ... ... :rolleyes:

Errr...

The words you are looking for are "cost of living" not "standard of living".

yea, my mistake

You know its this **** that pisses me off. You bash the other guy for republican stances and then post this which obviously shows what your political stance is (and maybe alittle extreme too). :eek:

There are so many major issues that need to be tackled: leaving industry, Iraq war, North Korea, Healthcare, Social Security... but NO... Let's fight back and forth and get NOTHING done. You mention the above items and it is not anything a Democrat, or Indep wouldn't do if they were in power. Quit your bitching about the govt and actually try to support some causes rather then adding fuel to the fire and contributing to the complete standstill our govt is in right now. At this rate I'll be dead in 70yrs with no Social Security and can't pay for Healthcare. But even then somehow it will all be George W Bush's fault... ... ... :rolleyes:

You know NOTHING about my stance.
Someone else chose to defend the current administration, I challenged it.
PLEASE, tell me ONE THING in that excerpt that is UNTRUE.
If you can't then admit my points are valid, and drop it.

And for the record, I am just as critical of Dems as Republicans. I can spend the day bashing Clinton and his Tech-Clowns for stupid stuff just as well. The point underlying ALL of the political issues is really "what industry or companies" own "which politicians". Then when that politician gets office, we will see the governmental policies begin to favor that industry. It's been this way since 1778, when predominantly white males who were land-owners/farmers or manufacturing giants were allowed all the voting priviledges... women, blacks, and native americans were "uneducated" and deemed uncapable of making a valid voting decision.
IT'S OUR SYSTEM... it's probably the best in the world, but it still has flaws, and until you start understanding that money-makes-policy, you do not understand the system.

While I appreciate anyone's opinion and will read/listen to such - I am asking you to please either state your opinion, or clearly bring facts to this debate.
Until you know me, you are incapable of knowing that I am a supporter of ANY political party or policy.
And I'll thank you for not generalizing me with your "stereo-typed" aquaintances in the future.

Re: "declared war on an adjective..."

If you are referring to Bush's "War on Terror", terror is a noun, not an adjective.

:)

My owning a record store has to do with oil prices in that it points out how obtuse your “connection” contention is.

Lot’s of poor people start businesses, many fail and some don’t…for those who don’t they may well become “the rich” that you apparently think represent everything that is wrong with the US. Of course for those who fail, I’m sure it’s because of some huge conspiracy to keep the poor man down and could never have anything to do with lousy planning, a lousy product, lousy location, a lousy work ethic, etc, etc.

I guess life is so terrible for you that you should just go eat worms and let the rest of us “rich” folk keep getting richer.

My wife and I own a small business. We have a tax ID number, and we OBEY THE RULES.

I have nothing against people who have made it. That's what it's all about in the US, but you are supposed to do it morally and ethically - you know, "follow the rules".

And why - just because I bash on the crooked-wealthy - do you people think I hate ALL wealthy people?!?! I have nothing against people who have it and have earned it. In fact, how do you know I am not one of those people? I just might surprise you.

You have to admit that wealthy people are much more capable of high-level corruption and power-hunger than a poor person. Hard for a homeless guy to screw thousands of people out of their retirements the way Ken Lay and the Enron group did, or steal $million$ the way Dennis Kozlowski and Mark Schwartz did at Tyco, don't you agree?

Re: "declared war on an adjective..."

If you are referring to Bush's "War on Terror", terror is a noun, not an adjective.

:)

Terrorist(s)...

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective



Let's split the difference!!! :D
What you and I need is more co-operativity, and we'll be all set! :bow:

You know NOTHING about my stance.
Someone else chose to defend the current administration, I challenged it.
PLEASE, tell me ONE THING in that excerpt that is UNTRUE.
If you can't then admit my points are valid, and drop it.

And for the record, I am just as critical of Dems as Republicans. I can spend the day bashing Clinton and his Tech-Clowns for stupid stuff just as well. The point underlying ALL of the political issues is really "what industry or companies" own "which politicians". Then when that politician gets office, we will see the governmental policies begin to favor that industry. It's been this way since 1778, when predominantly white males who were land-owners/farmers or manufacturing giants were allowed all the voting priviledges... women, blacks, and native americans were "uneducated" and deemed uncapable of making a valid voting decision.
IT'S OUR SYSTEM... it's probably the best in the world, but it still has flaws, and until you start understanding that money-makes-policy, you do not understand the system.

While I appreciate anyone's opinion and will read/listen to such - I am asking you to please either state your opinion, or clearly bring facts to this debate.
Until you know me, you are incapable of knowing that I am a supporter of ANY political party or policy.
And I'll thank you for not generalizing me with your "stereo-typed" aquaintances in the future.

I may not know anything about your stance, but based on your pointing out of every item above I would say that your not a Bush supporter, lol. You could be a dem, repub, indep, green, martian for all I care. My thoughts on this are just that yes Bush has people he is around and big payers in his cabinets/etc... But that's not any different then any other president in the last 100 years.

I think we should just fire them all. I think the same freedoms that make us a great country are the exact same freedoms that could be the undoing of this country if we're not careful.

The Repub/Dem parties have really gotten so out of hand and hate each other soo much that it's really pointless to keep them around. They can't do anything. btw I think I consider myself an Independant with a GM bias thrown in ;)

Someone else chose to defend the current administration, I challenged it.
PLEASE, tell me ONE THING in that excerpt that is UNTRUE.
If you can't then admit my points are valid, and drop it.


Nice attempt to narrow this whole discussion to an indictment of Bush. Not going to fly.

We don't have to "defend" the administration per se, just poke holes in your argument, which has been done by like 3 or 4 people now.

Its capitalism, supply and demand. In order to lower the prices one of a few things have to happen. Either be more fuel efficient to lower demand, find another source of power to propel cars, or a new competitor comes along that is willing for some reason to slash prices and start a price war like the airlines are doing right now.


Or the Fed Govt. starts to negotiate with these damn nations to drop the price. Remember "food for oil" and all other types of exchanges we have with OPEC well the current president doesn't even have a plan on how to lower the cost of fuel, just that he still wants to f#ck with social security by letting teenagers spend it. Sounds like great plan...Its price gouging and the government doesn't want to regulate it. Its not capitalism when its other nations screwing with us that have a Dictatorship or a Royal Family (Saudi) running the show. The OPEC nations have cut production and raised the price I know all you hard core right wingers think its great that capitalism is alive in the Mid east but its only when it comes to oil production. When a nation decides to cut production and raise prices with greatly impacts another nation a response is almost necessary inorder to get them to the negotiating table to lower the price. Bush has not sent one secretary or adviser over to the OPEC nations to talk about lowering oil. There are simply more things that must be done instead of spending 800,000,000,000.00 in Iraq alone

I just dont understand why we dont have more outrage on this board about gas prices. I just keep hearing the same old argument "well, it is capitalism" well, how long is that going to be an excuse for you to get f(cked in the ass by some guy in the Mideast who could give 2 sh@ts about capitalism. Most of the OPEC nations dont believe in capitalism or even have capitalistic societies. Dont you all understand that more can be done to lower the price which will adversely affect a TON of items in retail as well as shipping and receiving (expect ups to raise its rates in Boston taxi's have already started a fuel tax) Its just going to get worse i have heard projections that it may settle down in approx. 2 years time but by that point gas is expected to cost almost 5 dollars a gallon.

I like how we are just supposed to negotiate the price down.

Its an open market man. Its worth what its worth and every buyer pays the same price. I'm not sure how much more fair that can be.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRICE OF GAS, DON'T BUY IT. You can walk or take the bus if you want. No where do I see a constitutional or God Given or otherwise right to cheap gas. If only it was so easy to call them up and negotiate with them.

And again, PRICE OF OIL AND PRICE OF GAS ARE NOT THE SAME. Oil has been all over the place the past month, gas hasn't budged. Is that some global big oil conspiracy or is that the fact gasoline demand stays super high and there's not enough refinery capacity to make enough of it to get the cost down?

Occam's Razor comes to mind....

Its just going to get worse i have heard projections that it may settle down in approx. 2 years time but by that point gas is expected to cost almost 5 dollars a gallon.

Yeah, that may be true. And guess, what? CAPITALISM will get us through it. Alternative fuels will be much more competitive vs. gasoline at that price point, meaning private capital will flow into R&D and development of viable alternatives.

PLUS, at that price point, US driving habits will be affected, forcing conservation and reducing demand, and then the price will drop. We're just nowhere near that demand tipping point yet.

Occam's Razor comes to mind....


STOP MAKING SENSE.

Or the Fed Govt. starts to negotiate with these damn nations to drop the price. Remember "food for oil" and all other types of exchanges we have with OPEC well the current president doesn't even have a plan on how to lower the cost of fuel, just that he still wants to f#ck with social security by letting teenagers spend it. Sounds like great plan...Its price gouging and the government doesn't want to regulate it. Its not capitalism when its other nations screwing with us that have a Dictatorship or a Royal Family (Saudi) running the show. The OPEC nations have cut production and raised the price I know all you hard core right wingers think its great that capitalism is alive in the Mid east but its only when it comes to oil production. When a nation decides to cut production and raise prices with greatly impacts another nation a response is almost necessary inorder to get them to the negotiating table to lower the price. Bush has not sent one secretary or adviser over to the OPEC nations to talk about lowering oil. There are simply more things that must be done instead of spending 800,000,000,000.00 in Iraq alone

I just dont understand why we dont have more outrage on this board about gas prices. I just keep hearing the same old argument "well, it is capitalism" well, how long is that going to be an excuse for you to get f(cked in the ass by some guy in the Mideast who could give 2 sh@ts about capitalism. Most of the OPEC nations dont believe in capitalism or even have capitalistic societies. Dont you all understand that more can be done to lower the price which will adversely affect a TON of items in retail as well as shipping and receiving (expect ups to raise its rates in Boston taxi's have already started a fuel tax) Its just going to get worse i have heard projections that it may settle down in approx. 2 years time but by that point gas is expected to cost almost 5 dollars a gallon.

Oh yes and I forgot every ounce of oil that we use and consume is imported from an OPEC country... :rolleyes:

And while your on the right wingers kick, it's the left wingers trying to hold up Bush's Energy plan which involves drilling for oil in Alaska.

Chris96WS6 is right. We are very short on refineries and if anything we should be pursuing that not trying to send one of our "advisors" to tell OPEC to drop its prices because we think the prices aren't fair. Inflation and supply/demand is something that is real. Why don't you go protest the American Dairy Association because we can't buy milk for 25 cents a gallon anymore and see how far you get???

I don't understand your thinking?

It's funny how no-one is taking in to account that the Chinese economy and therefore car ownership/gas usage is growing at astronomical rates and are on a path to be the world's largest user and importer of oil.....this is the most important issue we will be facing in the next 2-5 years and we had sure as hell be ready for it.

I realize that Bush is faaaaarrrr from being perfect, but faced with the alternative, it is always a choice between the lesser of two evils.....water under the bridge right at the moment though.

I wonder (other than protecting Jeb's arse in Florida) why we don't drill more in the gulf? There much more oil there than in the Alaska area being debated.

Honestly though, we sure as hell better be looking for alternative sources of energy real damned quick.....imagine the 8000# gorilla China will be if OPEC tries to restrict their imports! :eek:

Interesting that no one has mentioned that this discussion should be in the lounge. :D

This is one topic where I fall back on the "Serenity Prayer" ---


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

---and come to the conclusion that I can:
- accept the price of gas, whatever is may be,
- drive less, or
- drive something more fuel efficient.

STOP MAKING SENSE.

Stop kissing my ass. :p j/k!

In all seriousness: To Doug. Yes the CEO of BP has said their may be more oil in the gulf than anywhere yet discovered the issue is how much will drilling for our own help us?

All oil goes into the open commodities market. It just does. If we get 1m barrels a day out of ANWAR, We don't get 1m barrels a day, that oil goes onto the open market and we get 25% of it since we consume 25% of global oil (whatever the percentage is). So we only get a proportional improvement % of domestic consumption, not a 1=1 relationship.

I think in the long run its smarter for us to hurt a little in the wallet and let the market come up with alternatives so we can ween ourselves off of oil now rather than later. Lower prices just puts off the inevitable IMO.

Just like social security.....of course its not an immient crisis, but its still a crisis and it won't fix itself. If someone told you your motor would blow in 50,000 miles unless you did some major maintenance and regular oil changes, and it would cost a lot more to do it later v. now, would you wait until 49,000 to lift a finger or would you start at now?

Damn dude, you have owned this thread all by yourself... lol

It's funny how no-one is taking in to account that the Chinese economy and therefore car ownership/gas usage is growing at astronomical rates and are on a path to be the world's largest user and importer of oil.....this is the most important issue we will be facing in the next 2-5 years and we had sure as hell be ready for it.

It's not being taken into account because it's overblown. Chinese oil consumption is somewhat of a red herring; what matters is global consumption, and that grew at about a 3% rate last year. That's a bit higher than it has been recently, but hardly alarming.

But if you want to worry about China, their oil consumption is growing at the "astronomical" rate of about 7% per year, which is almost exactly the amount their economy grows. In other words, their oil demand will grow in lockstep with their economy. The Chinese government is already worried about their economy overheating and so it's highly unlikely that their economy, and thus their oil consumption, will ever grow at a rate approaching 10%. When averaged out over the entire global demand, it is a very manageable increase.

Oil is expensive now for only one reason: the markets have made it so. Not supply & demand. Oil reserves in the US are higher than they were last year. And just as the markets have bid the price up artificially high, so too will they force it to eventually come back to normal. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see oil back in the $30 range by fall. I know it's hard for people to fathom this right now, but back in the mid-70s, who would have ever thought oil would sink down to the mid-teens as it did a few years back?

As to the concern about oil being a non-renewable resource and we'd better do something now, dammit: well, I don't buy that one either. For the past few years our known and recoverable reserves have increased by more than we consumed. Ever since the dawn of the automobile (and maybe even before), people have been predicting the end of our oil supplies. I think back in the 1920s some scientists said we'd run out in precisely 10 years (from that point). Obviously it never happened, and we never seem to be getting anywhere near the end of our reserves even though our consumption is steadily increasing. No doubt at some point technology and exploration won't be able to uncover any more usable oil and we will indeed start using up the last of the world's reserves. But I'm quite that certain no one reading this forum willl ever see that day.

Oil is expensive now for only one reason: the markets have made it so. Not supply & demand. Oil reserves in the US are higher than they were last year. And just as the markets have bid the price up artificially high, so too will they force it to eventually come back to normal. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see oil back in the $30 range by fall. I know it's hard for people to fathom this right now, but back in the mid-70s, who would have ever thought oil would sink down to the mid-teens as it did a few years back?


Good post!

You certainly won't see me buying up oil in my portfolio. I agree oil is inflated right now because the market hates uncertainty. Goldman Sachs said they see a 5% chance of $100/barrel in the next year and what happened? Price went up overnight just on speculatory fear.

There's even some evidence out there that oil fields re-fill over time, and that oil isn't the product of dead dinosaurs at all but a result of a process occuring much deeper in the Earth's crust. Its speculatory but there is a suprising amt of evidence suggesting it is a better model for the origins of oil.

Good post!

You certainly won't see me buying up oil in my portfolio. I agree oil is inflated right now because the market hates uncertainty. Goldman Sachs said they see a 5% chance of $100/barrel in the next year and what happened? Price went up overnight just on speculatory fear.

There's even some evidence out there that oil fields re-fill over time, and that oil isn't the product of dead dinosaurs at all but a result of a process occuring much deeper in the Earth's crust. Its speculatory but there is a suprising amt of evidence suggesting it is a better model for the origins of oil.

I tend to believe the research into this as well. The fossil fuel "dino oil" theory has so many loopholes and really makes no sense. A THEORY that the OIL Companies do NOT want us to know.

I may not know anything about your stance, but based on your pointing out of every item above I would say that your not a Bush supporter, lol. You could be a dem, repub, indep, green, martian for all I care. My thoughts on this are just that yes Bush has people he is around and big payers in his cabinets/etc... But that's not any different then any other president in the last 100 years.

I think we should just fire them all. I think the same freedoms that make us a great country are the exact same freedoms that could be the undoing of this country if we're not careful.

The Repub/Dem parties have really gotten so out of hand and hate each other soo much that it's really pointless to keep them around. They can't do anything. btw I think I consider myself an Independant with a GM bias thrown in ;)

Well now, there's a turnaround!
All of a sudden, you and I have LOTS in common!!! :D
Some VERY wise wordds in there dude.

Or the Fed Govt. starts to negotiate with these damn nations to drop the price. Remember "food for oil" and all other types of exchanges we have with OPEC well the current president doesn't even have a plan on how to lower the cost of fuel, just that he still wants to f#ck with social security by letting teenagers spend it. Sounds like great plan...Its price gouging and the government doesn't want to regulate it. Its not capitalism when its other nations screwing with us that have a Dictatorship or a Royal Family (Saudi) running the show. The OPEC nations have cut production and raised the price I know all you hard core right wingers think its great that capitalism is alive in the Mid east but its only when it comes to oil production. When a nation decides to cut production and raise prices with greatly impacts another nation a response is almost necessary inorder to get them to the negotiating table to lower the price. Bush has not sent one secretary or adviser over to the OPEC nations to talk about lowering oil. There are simply more things that must be done instead of spending 800,000,000,000.00 in Iraq alone

I just dont understand why we dont have more outrage on this board about gas prices. I just keep hearing the same old argument "well, it is capitalism" well, how long is that going to be an excuse for you to get f(cked in the ass by some guy in the Mideast who could give 2 sh@ts about capitalism. Most of the OPEC nations dont believe in capitalism or even have capitalistic societies. Dont you all understand that more can be done to lower the price which will adversely affect a TON of items in retail as well as shipping and receiving (expect ups to raise its rates in Boston taxi's have already started a fuel tax) Its just going to get worse i have heard projections that it may settle down in approx. 2 years time but by that point gas is expected to cost almost 5 dollars a gallon.

AMEN. :bow:
Here's another guy who has seen through the BS-smokescreen.

Nice post.

Interesting that no one has mentioned that this discussion should be in the lounge. :D

This is one topic where I fall back on the "Serenity Prayer" ---



---and come to the conclusion that I can:
- accept the price of gas, whatever is may be,
- drive less, or
- drive something more fuel efficient.

I think it belongs in here because this one factor alone can have HUGE impacts on what current vehicles sell, and what future vehicles will look like and be powered with.

Yeah, that may be true. And guess, what? CAPITALISM will get us through it. Alternative fuels will be much more competitive vs. gasoline at that price point, meaning private capital will flow into R&D and development of viable alternatives.

PLUS, at that price point, US driving habits will be affected, forcing conservation and reducing demand, and then the price will drop. We're just nowhere near that demand tipping point yet.

With all do respect - you still have to assume that "Capitalism" is being played by all parties, and being played by the rules.
This is NOT always the case - namely there are two major exceptions.
1) OPEC - this is a cartel, a fancy "monopoly" that regulates about 70% of the crude supply in the world, and they do so to benefit themselves - not anyone else. They certainly do not play to the rules of Capitalism like any American business is legally bound to do.
2) Communistic and Socialistic societies - they do not really like the idea of capitalism in China, Vietnam, Korea, and many other nations. They also do not care to abide by fair trade rules and treaties - as is well proven in the auto, textile, and electronics industries. They will do the same with oil if given the chance.

I whole-heartedly agree that capitalism will provide new technology or alternatives in it's own controlled environment, but human nature and different governmental policies don't really perpetuate a virgin capitalistic system. Our own headlines reak of the failures daily... AOL/Time-Warner, Tyco International, Enron, etc jump quickly to mind as bad examples.

I like how we are just supposed to negotiate the price down.

Its an open market man. Its worth what its worth and every buyer pays the same price. I'm not sure how much more fair that can be.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRICE OF GAS, DON'T BUY IT. You can walk or take the bus if you want. No where do I see a constitutional or God Given or otherwise right to cheap gas. If only it was so easy to call them up and negotiate with them.

And again, PRICE OF OIL AND PRICE OF GAS ARE NOT THE SAME. Oil has been all over the place the past month, gas hasn't budged. Is that some global big oil conspiracy or is that the fact gasoline demand stays super high and there's not enough refinery capacity to make enough of it to get the cost down?

Occam's Razor comes to mind....


Your right fuel isnt a God given right However, Fuel is critical to America's economic growth and stability. If it gets disrupted more things suffer then your camaro or Ta for the weekend. Sure its capitalism thats f(cken you in the ass and ya know what when gas reaches 5 dollars a gallon I am gunna shake your hand and say well thanks for doing nothing and i hope you like how capitalism has patted you on the back while ramming you in the a$$. When gas does reach 5 dollars a gallon it will be almost just as expensive to create synthetic gas at that point or use some of the alternative fuels such as alcohol etc. Yes, capitalism will spur growth for alternative fuels, my argument was never against the philosophy of capitalism its how some of you are using it as an argument against asking questions and demanding why action isnt being taken. Yes, we live in a capitalistic society but we also live in a DEMOCRACY where the government is supposed to work to aid the people and not strip it of money to line their own pockets as what is happening with this fuel crisis. News Flash, the companies that are messing with the prices couldn't care less about capitalism like stated its more like an elitist club where they dictate prices on there own terms and if they are not checked into place then fuel will continue to rise. Like I said "food for oil" worked well and since petrol is the only export that the mid east has the US did take up many endeavors to create alternate trades for considerations in oil and new markets. Now, someone mentioned how left-wingers are holding up drilling in Alaska, well let me tell you this, if you do drill on virgin land it will disrupt the wildlife, it will cause pollution to many of the surrounding regions it will cause the relocation of peoples as well as the fact that its only a TEMPORARY FIX, it solves NOTHING. In 5 years we will be back where we started. So your going to destroy a region for virtually no gain. Thats why there is so much opposition to it. We should be putting more effort into alternative fuels. I cant believe how naive some of you are. I have never met so many sheep in my life. Yes, you are correct oil is all over the place, and yes there are not a whole lot of refineries, however, you are leaving out that refineries are CUTTING production to help keep gas prices as high as they are. What the issue is that the US wants to drill in Alaska creating more fuel sources to cut out those refineries in the Mid east. Also, I know that we dont get ALL of our oil from OPEC. However, its around 67% that does.

Oil is also cultivated by the markets, right now with China using more fuel then before as well as more countries becoming more industrialized helps to create a further demand but its also the falling US dollar that helps to contribute to high prices as well. There are a lot of factors I am not blaming all of this on the Bush Administration I am just saying that MORE can be done to help correct the problem then what is being done right now which is basically nothing. Bush is taking the "let it ride" attitude towards this issue and that is what pisses me off. I am not saying release the reserves I am saying atleast get to the negotiating table and atleast play some cards.

If gas does hit $5 a gallon, due, CAPITALISM will be the only reason any of us can afford to fill our tanks enough to get to work.

You think a socialist economy with its inefficient means of production and oppressive wealth-redistributing taxation would leave the people any better able to afford spikes in energy costs?

Yes it hurts but try being thankful for the situation you are in and realize it could be MUCH MUCH worse.

I'm just not sure what you want us to do about it. Your only choice is shut the hell up and pay the cost of gas or find another way to get around AKA walk, bus, etc.

Proud,

I've read everyone's post on here...you're on fire, man :D Keep it up. I doubt you'll change anyone's mind, but hey...give it a shot for me :)

I'd post my own opinions as well, but they'd be a virtual rehash of yours. And you have more documentation to back yours up than I do. Go to it, my friend...

I read an email saying that americans should only buy gas from Sunoco, Citgo and Hess, since they buy no gas from Opec, they get it all from South America and other countries. Supposedly if all Americans did this, OPEC would be Fahqed!!!!

Tell everyone you know to buy Sunoco!!
I do already, Sunoco has the 94 octane, the Camaro runs great on it. Is this true about only buying from SA?

One word for this post:

Outstanding.


Best quote in the articles above:

"Mr. TAYLOR: Well, don't link me into that, Roger, because I wouldn't
endorse that policy. I don't the United States is particularly wasteful
in the way it uses energy. I mean, we hear often, for example, that the
United States is 3 percent of the world's population, but we use 25
percent of the world's oil; that's true because we produce 25 percent of
the world's stuff. I mean, we use energy because we're a very productive
economy that produces a lot of things."

Sit on it and spin, Euro-trash. I couldn't agree more, with either of your posts guys! Right on the money! :bow:

Good post!

You certainly won't see me buying up oil in my portfolio. I agree oil is inflated right now because the market hates uncertainty. Goldman Sachs said they see a 5% chance of $100/barrel in the next year and what happened? Price went up overnight just on speculatory fear.

There's even some evidence out there that oil fields re-fill over time, and that oil isn't the product of dead dinosaurs at all but a result of a process occuring much deeper in the Earth's crust. Its speculatory but there is a suprising amt of evidence suggesting it is a better model for the origins of oil.
Your post made me think of something I though about before, but never mentioned to anyone so here goes. The Big Bang Theory! Doesn't it state, that the Galaxy/Earth is ever expanding? Wouldn't this mean that the Oil Fields would too be ever expanding? I don't think anyone in the oil industry, would want ppl know this. It serves them much better for common knowlege to be, that "oil reserves are drying up", No? Just 1 nuts .02! :p Oh and yes Chris is owning this thread. :bow:

Your post made me think of something I though about before, but never mentioned to anyone so here goes. The Big Bang Theory! Doesn't it state, that the Galaxy/Earth is ever expanding? Wouldn't this mean that the Oil Fields would too be ever expanding? I don't think anyone in the oil industry, would want ppl know this.
:irk:

heh

Your post made me think of something I though about before, but never mentioned to anyone so here goes. The Big Bang Theory! Doesn't it state, that the Galaxy/Earth is ever expanding? Wouldn't this mean that the Oil Fields would too be ever expanding? I don't think anyone in the oil industry, would want ppl know this. It serves them much better for common knowlege to be, that "oil reserves are drying up", No? Just 1 nuts .02! :p Oh and yes Chris is owning this thread. :bow:


Well thanks but I think you're stretching on the big bang theory. It has nothing do do with the earth expanding. It says the UNIVERSE and the dimensions of space & time are expanding at a faster and faster rate. This is all backed up by Einstein's theory of relativity and is the single best scientific evidence we have for the existence of a Creator who exists outside of our universe. Has NOTHING to do with oil, LOL.

But you get extra credit points for at least thinking outside the box. :cool:

Dude I think that was sarcasm.

Dude I think that was sarcasm.

Ahh, I think you're right. Just didn't catch it the first read-through. You never know sometimes.... LOL.