Article: The Zeta Conundrum (Christopher A. Sawyer)

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/0405exc06.html

This is a very vague article but I think it should be posted here so that it will turn up for searches on the subject in the near future.

so the camaro isn't coming out till 2009

Can I get the two minutes of my life back...

so the camaro isn't coming out till 2009

I wouldn't throw in THAT towel yet, and no, that's not just wishful optimism talking. Don't put in too much stock in outside predictions, lets just see what develops over the course of this year. Unless GM specifically states a particular model is cancelled or delayed, hold off on the rush to judgement.

Sure, the 2009 or even 2010 predictions may in the end actually be accurate. But there's a few of things to ponder:

1. How long does it take a car to go from final approval to production?

2. What constituted Zeta?

3. If the common belief was that Zeta was too big to be a Camaro, and Camaro was scheduled for 2008, couldn't one conclude based on these 2 that the only way Camaro would come back is on something smaller than the "Zeta coupe", which would mean it's not a "Zeta", and therefore MIGHT not be effected by Zeta's cancellation due to it not being part of the Zeta program??

Just some food for thought.

Here is a question.

Will we start to get more info this year about a new Ponycar or Mustang Competitor from GM without the name Camaro attached?

I didn't say Camaro on purpose since we recently heard that a Mustang competitor is planned.

GTO sibling.....:think:

Less expensixe others that would have been Zetas (not all of the planned 15 Zeta vehicles will live) will be shuffled to a revised version of Holden’s VT platform that underpins the current Pontiac GTO. Unlike their Sigma-based brothers, these vehicle will not offer Zeta’s AWD capability, but may include short- and long-wheelbase sedans for Chevrolet (Impala and Caprice, respectively), and a pair of V6- and V8-powered coupes (Monte Carlo and Camaro).

Here is a question.

Will we start to get more info this year about a new Ponycar or Mustang Competitor from GM without the name Camaro attached?

I didn't say Camaro on purpose since we recently heard that a Mustang competitor is planned.

I suspect if a Camaro replacement is in the works, we'll hear about it by the end of the year. If not, then we can start buying into the 2009-2010 scenario.

Word is quite a few things will be playing out over the course of this year, and the clocks running.

GTO sibling.....:think:

Pontiac-Holden-Chevy?

Could explain the Camaro confusion.

GTO sibling.....:think:

I don't really like the thought of a new ponycar going onto a warmed over, decade old chassis. Didn't GM look into puting the Camaro on the VT back in 1996?

I don't really like the thought of a new ponycar going onto a warmed over, decade old chassis. Didn't GM look into puting the Camaro on the VT back in 1996?

There are all sorts of proposal floating around right now.

Hopefully the good guys have enough ammo to shoot down all the really stupid ones.

BTW..assuming GM gets the architecture issue squared away....I HAVE MEGA FAITH!!!!!!!!!! :cz28:

I don't really like the thought of a new ponycar going onto a warmed over, decade old chassis. Didn't GM look into puting the Camaro on the VT back in 1996?

The 1971 2nd gen Camaro was a modified 4 year old chassis and the 1993 version was a modified 10 year old chassis. Both did extremely well, and still was class leading to the very end.

The Omega chassis (the basis of the GTO & Catera), still has plenty of tricks up it's sleeve if GM engineers decide to squeeze more out of it, or make it the basis of a lighter car. Don't let age cloud your judgement. A 10 year old BMW M3 STILL is a hot handling car, despite having a suspension setup nearly identical to the Omega.

For those wanting IRS that can handle alot of power on the cheap, this is pretty much the only ticket you have.

Unless GM specifically states a particular model is cancelled or delayed, hold off on the rush to judgement.

Wouldn't you have to actually announce a particular model is coming before you could then announce its delay/cancellation? :p

Wouldn't you have to actually announce a particular model is coming before you could then announce its delay/cancellation? :p

No. Lutz ended speculation on the Firebird returning a couple of years ago.

For those wanting IRS that can handle alot of power on the cheap, this is pretty much the only ticket you have.

I'm not buying into that.


I'm thinking, does Camaro really need alot of power. I mean aren't those V8's pretty pricey to buy and keep gassed up. What's the speed limit in most places? 55, 65? 70? In any case...the minimum is 45 mph. Do we really need to go beyond the minimum level of performance. I mean really...it's just a waste of money....you know.... those big powerful V8's. They scare me sometimes too. The Aveo's 1.6L 4 banger provides more than sufficient power.....even if you plan on driving your car at 75 mph.....which BTW is illegal in many areas. I mean...I really don't want to spend alot for my (used) Camaro...so I'm not really interested in any sort of performance. I just want it to be a Camaro though.

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GOTCHA!

That's how I feel when someone suggests we need to skimp on Camaro's chassis.

No. Lutz ended speculation on the Firebird returning a couple of years ago.

Much in the same way ol' Bob said the Camaro "might be back in 30 years", right?

The 1971 2nd gen Camaro was a modified 4 year old chassis and the 1993 version was a modified 10 year old chassis. Both did extremely well, and still was class leading to the very end.

The Omega chassis (the basis of the GTO & Catera), still has plenty of tricks up it's sleeve if GM engineers decide to squeeze more out of it, or make it the basis of a lighter car. Don't let age cloud your judgement. A 10 year old BMW M3 STILL is a hot handling car, despite having a suspension setup nearly identical to the Omega.


But wasn't that platform looked at and rejected because it wouldn't make a Ponycar?
Yes the 4th gen Camaro was class leading and it still was put on hiatus. Class leading won't guarantee sales.
For those wanting IRS that can handle alot of power on the cheap, this is pretty much the only ticket you have.

And what about the Kappa and Torana Chassis?

A reworked Omega, Kappa or Beta car would all require testing, would they not? So why is Omega the only way to get IRS... :confused:

Much in the same way ol' Bob said the Camaro "might be back in 30 years", right?

When he said that, he was making an off handed quip. I am still floored at how many people flipped out and bawled and whined like a bunch of 3 year olds.

The outcry here by some people to that was just as ridiculous as the outcry from the politically correct gang when our governer called our stalemated legislature a bunch of "girly men". :lol:

The Camaro quip was taken out of context. The Firebird mention was a matter of actual plans in an interview (the exact words were "the Firebird's days are over")

So why is Omega the only way to get IRS... :confused:

It absolutely is not.

The Camaro quip was taken out of context. The Firebird mention was a matter of actual plans in an interview (the exact words were "the Firebird's days are over")

Lutz= Bitch :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I hope gm goes bankrupt and the current management get fired

Lutz= Bitch :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I hope gm goes bankrupt and the current management get fired
Cause that would make everything better :rolleyes:

Actually I believe he (Lutz) was discussing the new GTO when someone asked about Camaro returning. His response was (paraphasing) "well it took us 30 years to bring the GTO back." He never even quipped about the Camaro taking 30 years, but everyone took it as such. :rolleyes:

Actually I believe he (Lutz) was discussing the new GTO when someone asked about Camaro returning. His response was (paraphasing) "well it took us 30 years to bring the GTO back." He never even quipped about the Camaro taking 30 years, but everyone took it as such. :rolleyes:

:cz28: :thumb:

Actually I believe he (Lutz) was discussing the new GTO when someone asked about Camaro returning. His response was (paraphasing) "well it took us 30 years to bring the GTO back." He never even quipped about the Camaro taking 30 years, but everyone took it as such. :rolleyes:

pretty much. the gto was in the spotlight, it was his car (well one of them) and he didnt want the focus to be on a car no longer in production. He said that so they could get back to the point of the press meeting - the gto

When he said that, he was making an off handed quip. I am still floored at how many people flipped out and bawled and whined like a bunch of 3 year olds.

I guess my point was, neither car has gotten a huge amount of public support from Bobby. That's all. So I'm not sure it's quite accurate to say Firebird is dead because Lutz said so in a "serious tone", but Camaro is on because Lutz made a "quip" about it not returning. :shrug: Trust me though, we are on the same page here.

GM has to get through the CAW contract first....that is more pressing than the platform I think.

The design for the Camaro has been set for a few years now...once green lighted it will come to market pretty quickly I think.

GM has to get through the CAW contract first....that is more pressing than the platform I think.

The design for the Camaro has been set for a few years now...once green lighted it will come to market pretty quickly I think.

Same thoughts here....

What's the timetable on the CAW negotiations? :confused:

GM has to get through the CAW contract first.....

I'm thinking that's not as big of an issue as it once was. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm thinking that's not as big of an issue as it once was. Maybe I'm wrong.


From what I guess, it is the main thing that makes it hard for GM to bring a Camaro out as quickly as they like. The car is mostly done, just needs the go ahead on the platform (you know all this). I don't think they want to look like they are working to hard on a Camaro...expecially when it is the CAW that needs to make consessions this time on other issues too.

I'm not buying into that.


I'm thinking, does Camaro really need alot of power. I mean aren't those V8's pretty pricey to buy and keep gassed up. What's the speed limit in most places? 55, 65? 70? In any case...the minimum is 45 mph. Do we really need to go beyond the minimum level of performance. I mean really...it's just a waste of money....you know.... those big powerful V8's. They scare me sometimes too. The Aveo's 1.6L 4 banger provides more than sufficient power.....even if you plan on driving your car at 75 mph.....which BTW is illegal in many areas. I mean...I really don't want to spend alot for my (used) Camaro...so I'm not really interested in any sort of performance. I just want it to be a Camaro though.

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GOTCHA!

That's how I feel when someone suggests we need to skimp on Camaro's chassis.


:lol:

From what I guess, it is the main thing that makes it hard for GM to bring a Camaro out as quickly as they like. The car is mostly done, just needs the go ahead on the platform (you know all this). I don't think they want to look like they are working to hard on a Camaro...expecially when it is the CAW that needs to make consessions this time on other issues too.

The platform could have already been signed off on . What I dont get is how many are so distrought over the demise of Zeta , when really it was never anything more than specualtion that a Camaro woulda been built off it in the 1st place . A chevy coupe coulda been alot of things . So maybe the a RWD Monte Carlo just got pushed back to 2009/10 and the Camaro never got sidetracked because GM realized Zeta was not right for the Camaro long before the internet and press think they did . From all I can gather the Camaro name is still no no internally at GM , if I remember right 5/05 would be a important month reguarding the name useage based on the outcome of the CAW thing . If a Camaro was on the omega chassis , how easy would it be to hide full fledged Camaro under a Catera ( even if the Catera body had to alterted somewhat ) or anything else built of that particular platform . One look in the vette museum of the cut and paste 4th gen camaro C5 development car , complete with rear transaxle and all and I'd believe nething as far as test mules go . Outside that car , save for the center mount exhaust it look no different from a black LT1 Z28 , with a odd looking hood scoop and a outa place fuel filler .

Who in the hell would think twice about seeing a pos looking hacked up Catera , mfr. plates or not . I might be stretching , but now that Omega gets thrown in .....It'd be a believable scenario if ;)
This saga is worthy of a book when it all over :D

The platform could have already been signed off on . What I dont get is how many are so distrought over the demise of Zeta , when really it was never anything more than specualtion that a Camaro woulda been built off it in the 1st place . A chevy coupe coulda been alot of things . So maybe the a RWD Monte Carlo just got pushed back to 2009/10 and the Camaro never got sidetracked because GM realized Zeta was not right for the Camaro long before the internet and press think they did . From all I can gather the Camaro name is still no no internally at GM , if I remember right 5/05 would be a important month reguarding the name useage based on the outcome of the CAW thing . If a Camaro was on the omega chassis , how easy would it be to hide full fledged Camaro under a Catera ( even if the Catera body had to alterted somewhat ) or anything else built of that particular platform . One look in the vette museum of the cut and paste 4th gen camaro C5 development car , complete with rear transaxle and all and I'd believe nething as far as test mules go . Outside that car , save for the center mount exhaust it look no different from a black LT1 Z28 , with a odd looking hood scoop and a outa place fuel filler .

Who in the hell would think twice about seeing a pos looking hacked up Catera , mfr. plates or not . I might be stretching , but now that Omega gets thrown in .....It'd be a believable scenario if ;)
This saga is worthy of a book when it all over :D

Scott has already promised us a book in a few years, I just want to know if there is going to be a DVD collection with like 30+ hours of interviews, meetings, videos of the mules... That I would pay good money for.

The platform could have already been signed off on .

Not yet.

Still being decided.

Some are still trying to make the case that it's worth a couple hundred dollar savings...to give up the chassis dynamics of the CTSv....and replace them with the dynamics of a 3/4th gen. No one can tell the difference...right?

Well, the 3rd Gens were so successful in the sales department, and were the pinnacle of Fbody development... so they jsut need to pull out hte old tools and get 'er dun.

Lutz= Bitch :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I hope gm goes bankrupt and the current management get fired


That's the most ignorant, unknowing, and retarted statement I've ever read over the 8 years I've come to this site.

I'm not going to even waste my time explaining it to you. :mad:

GM has to get through the CAW contract first....that is more pressing than the platform I think.

The design for the Camaro has been set for a few years now...once green lighted it will come to market pretty quickly I think.

I think it's been continually refined over the past few years, but you are right about it being done very quickly if approved.


The platform could have already been signed off on . What I dont get is how many are so distrought over the demise of Zeta , when really it was never anything more than specualtion that a Camaro woulda been built off it in the 1st place . A chevy coupe coulda been alot of things . So maybe the a RWD Monte Carlo just got pushed back to 2009/10 and the Camaro never got sidetracked because GM realized Zeta was not right for the Camaro long before the internet and press think they did .

Hmmmmm. :)

So my next question would be what do we know about Sigma lite?

What I dont get is how many are so distrought over the demise of Zeta, when really it was never anything more than specualtion that a Camaro woulda been built off it in the 1st place . A chevy coupe coulda been alot of things . So maybe the a RWD Monte Carlo just got pushed back to 2009/10 and the Camaro never got sidetracked because GM realized Zeta was not right for the Camaro long before the internet and press think they did .

Ding...ding...ding...ding. My thoughts exactly. :thumb:

Not yet.

Still being decided.

Some are still trying to make the case that it's worth a couple hundred dollar savings...to give up the chassis dynamics of the CTSv....and replace them with the dynamics of a 3/4th gen. No one can tell the difference...right?

From what I read, the CTSv has horrible wheelhop problems on dragstrip launches, whereas the 4th gen did not. In fact, didn't GMHTP break their CTSv test model (I don't recall the exact problem, but I remember that their CTSv broke during their test).

So maybe I would rather have 4th gen dynamics. My 2002 seems fine to me. And I'm sure they could make incremental improvements like the Mustang folks did.

From what I read, the CTSv has horrible wheelhop problems on dragstrip launches, whereas the 4th gen did not. In fact, didn't GMHTP break their CTSv test model (I don't recall the exact problem, but I remember that their CTSv broke during their test).

So maybe I would rather have 4th gen dynamics. My 2002 seems fine to me. And I'm sure they could make incremental improvements like the Mustang folks did.

I can easily induce wheelhop in my 3rd gen.

I wonder if 4th gens didn't get a slippery clutch ( one trick to let the glass rear end live)....if wheelhop would have been a bigger issue?

I can easily induce wheelhop in my 3rd gen.

I wonder if 4th gens didn't get a slippery clutch ( one trick to let the glass rear end live)....if wheelhop would have been a bigger issue?

LOL , it wouldn't have made it that far . 1 friend , 1 Mcloed street twin , a pair of BFG's on a stock LS1 blew the posi to bits on the 1 attempt :D :D It was 5000 rpm launch though ....DOh!