Durability of Ti valves?

Ok, here's a question for you guys -

How durable are Ti valves in a street application? My car rarely sees the track at the moment, but I give it pure hell regularly on the street (I know, I know). Shifts are at around 6800, and it makes excellent power right up to the shifts. I've been thinking about Ti valves simply because they are much easier on the springs, but it represents a substantial investment to call del-west or Manley and I have no prior experience with Ti.

Your thoughts?

Dave C.

Titanum valves will wear quickly.They cost to much to replace every 5,000 miles not to mention the seats.
Unless you are shifting above 8000 they are not needed.They make springs that can control the valve mass anywhere under that.
Intakes are about $600.00 for 8 and I don't trust them on the exhaust especially if you use N2o they don't seem to take the heat well.You can coat them but a set of $800.00 exhaust valves is un heard of.

I have a feeling the LS7's Del West valves had a hand in this thread. Those heads have put some thoughts into my head also...

Edit: the head on my shoulders, but that could lead toward strange things in my cylinder heads also :D

no need for Ti at that RPM

Titanum valves will wear quickly.They cost to much to replace every 5,000 miles not to mention the seats.
Unless you are shifting above 8000 they are not needed.They make springs that can control the valve mass anywhere under that.
Intakes are about $600.00 for 8 and I don't trust them on the exhaust especially if you use N2o they don't seem to take the heat well.You can coat them but a set of $800.00 exhaust valves is un heard of.

Thanks for the info. I really didn't know they were that much of a wear item. My thoughts on it were to extend the rpm of the motor to the middle to upper 7K range if the valves would last for any decent time, but 5K miles simply isn't enough to justify the cost. No wonder ebay is littered with ex-nascar valves! Sounds like they are all used up by the end of the race..

Thanks again for the replies fellas. I'll move on to the next set of ideas.. :)

Dave C.

no need for Ti at that RPM
The LS7 only has a 7000rpm redline. Why did they use titanium valves?

GM seems to think that very lightweight valves are a very good thing. They used hollow stem valves in the LT4 & LS6, then the Ti valves in the LS7. They build these engines with the intention of running 100k miles.

I have a feeling that everybody that says Ti valves wear out are used to seeing them on solid lifter motors with very aggresive ramp rates at high RPM. I asked several people at my school about running Ti valves in a hydraulic roller setup with a 7000-7200 redline. Nobody had ever heard of anybody doing that.

Has anybody on here ever seen a combination like that?

AdioSS raises a good question. I'm concerned about this comment about quickly wearing out Ti valves. I don't mean to hijack the thread but I have a set of Nascar-style 4.3L V6 aluminum race heads that I'm probably going to be putting into a street-strip warrior V6 Fiero in about a year (when we just can't go any further with the Vortec heads that are on it now). The Nascar heads have Ti valves in them right now and I was PLANNING on using them.

1. They're going to wear out quickly if this thing sees any street duty? How much? Couple hours a weekend doing pickup races on the street for a season going to kill them? Street/strip kinda vehicle.

2. When the valves wear out I assume they take the seats out with them?

3. Should I just get some stainless valves in the same diameter (2.08/1.60) and put them in? Would the existing seats be compatible with stainless or are they "soft" too?

Don't see an issue with wear.

I believe the Infinity Q45 comes from the factory with titanium valves. That should say a little something for the durability.

If the concentricity is off, you're going to impact the life of your valves/seats... but that is regardless of valve material.

You DO have to run beryllium copper seats with Ti valves or they will not transfer heat like they need to. Other than that, it's just a question of gains per dollar and this scores real low on that scale.

Endurance racing is one area where they'd be a no brainer decision but we may not be talking the same game when street engines are the focus of discussion.

-Mindgame

Well, I can tell you that MY interest in these had nothing to do with the fact that they are being used in the LS7. I'm interested in the benefits of the lighter assembly being easier on the springs. There have been a few questions raised on this though that I didn't think about (specifically about the LS7 application). I think I may give del-west or Manley a call and find out what they think about a 7K redline with Ti valves in a mostly street application. The only experience that I DO have with them is on a 406 ia a friends rail, but that thing spins to 9K on alki. Kinda apples and oranges.

Are there any other OEM's that use Titanium valves a production engine? Might be some good info to be gleaned from the them as well if they are out there...

Hmm. And I thought I was done with this idea ;)

Dave C.

CCCC...

Check into Ferrea's new hollow-stem valves if you're serious about lightening things up. They even offer a sodium-filled exhaust valve now. That'd be the ticket... and it'd save you a few bucks over Ti.

But you are right... valvetrain control is the name of the game and "lightweight" is a step in the right direction.

-Mindgame

Don't see an issue with wear.

I believe the Infinity Q45 comes from the factory with titanium valves. That should say a little something for the durability.

If the concentricity is off, you're going to impact the life of your valves/seats... but that is regardless of valve material.

You DO have to run beryllium copper seats with Ti valves or they will not transfer heat like they need to. Other than that, it's just a question of gains per dollar and this scores real low on that scale.

Endurance racing is one area where they'd be a no brainer decision but we may not be talking the same game when street engines are the focus of discussion.

-Mindgame

I have run 2 sets of Dell West valves in my Ford and they have to be replaced every year.They have a groove around them that can't be cut out without reducing the dia. and the seats are pounded out bad and have to be replaced.
The PASSENGER cars you are talking about aren't running 800+ pounds on the nose and 300lbs on the seat and probably have a cam with soft closing ramps and not near as much lift.
Go ahead and try them it's only money,they may work for you.The hollow stem and the filled valves sound like a better option and reduced dia stems(but that is a high wear item too)
For street duty they are not needed.

when it comes to the ls7 i think gm almost had to use them to control the intake valve and make the lifters live by using light # springs .600 lift and a 211* lobe using a 1.8 rocker doesnt inspire any semblence of gentle in my head. especially when you start taking it to 7k rpms. hell thats a pretty good redline for a stock small block valvetrain setup in anyones book. but about the ls7 i havent seen any maintenance schedules yet and who says gm didnt say "they have to be changed at x miles to keep the warranty" when you get into some pretty nice high end parts sometimes maintenence becomes ungodly costive. anyone remember the price of an oil change in an enzo. its like $700 iirc. not that you care if you have that car its just a good example.

hell if you want to get up into the mid/high 7's for rpms just pony up the money for a nice solid roller setup... thats where i'd spend it, despite popular belief and wives tails they are fairly livable on the street if you dont get carried away.

when it comes to the ls7 i think gm almost had to use them to control the intake valve and make the lifters live by using light # springs .600 lift and a 211* lobe using a 1.8 rocker doesnt inspire any semblence of gentle in my head. especially when you start taking it to 7k rpms. hell thats a pretty good redline for a stock small block valvetrain setup in anyones book. but about the ls7 i havent seen any maintenance schedules yet and who says gm didnt say "they have to be changed at x miles to keep the warranty" when you get into some pretty nice high end parts sometimes maintenence becomes ungodly costive. anyone remember the price of an oil change in an enzo. its like $700 iirc. not that you care if you have that car its just a good example.

hell if you want to get up into the mid/high 7's for rpms just pony up the money for a nice solid roller setup... thats where i'd spend it, despite popular belief and wives tails they are fairly livable on the street if you dont get carried away.

A 211* lobe beats the hell out of a 270* lobe@868 lift with 2.0 rockers.

when it comes to the ls7 i think gm almost had to use them to control the intake valve and make the lifters live by using light # springs .600 lift and a 211* lobe using a 1.8 rocker doesnt inspire any semblence of gentle in my head. especially when you start taking it to 7k rpms. hell thats a pretty good redline for a stock small block valvetrain setup in anyones book. but about the ls7 i havent seen any maintenance schedules yet and who says gm didnt say "they have to be changed at x miles to keep the warranty" when you get into some pretty nice high end parts sometimes maintenence becomes ungodly costive. anyone remember the price of an oil change in an enzo. its like $700 iirc. not that you care if you have that car its just a good example.

hell if you want to get up into the mid/high 7's for rpms just pony up the money for a nice solid roller setup... thats where i'd spend it, despite popular belief and wives tails they are fairly livable on the street if you dont get carried away.


Not hardly. From what I hear they plan to build up to 8000 LS7s which are production engines which have to meet all the high mileage emissions and durability requirements without replacing internal engine parts. The Z06/LS7 also doesn't pay a gas guzzler tax...probably the only 500 hp production car which doesn't.

Ti inlet valves, hollowstem exhaust valves, lightweight retainers, and perhaps beehive springs certainly keeps the valvetrain weight to a minimum. Combining that with relatively mild valve timing means lower spring pressure and longer life. It's Catch 22 in reverse.

The OEM problem is usually money, but the LS7 has a big enough budget to affort the Ti parts. Probably the same deal with the Ti rods; it keeps the reciprocating mass lower so there's less load on the crank at 7000.

IMO, using the Ti parts is good for the LS7's image, so the extra cost also helps marketing.

Ok, here's a question for you guys -

How durable are Ti valves in a street application? My car rarely sees the track at the moment, but I give it pure hell regularly on the street (I know, I know). Shifts are at around 6800, and it makes excellent power right up to the shifts. I've been thinking about Ti valves simply because they are much easier on the springs, but it represents a substantial investment to call del-west or Manley and I have no prior experience with Ti.

Your thoughts?

Dave C.

Just thought Id point something out. If you just want lighter valves to be easier on the springs, and you spend at least $1200 on a set of valves, wouldnt it be better to just replace the ~$200 valvesprings 6 times? Granted if the engine would benefit from lighter valves it would make sense from a performance standpoint, but at 6800rpms now, Im just taking a guess here and saying that you probably would not have any cam left past that where lighter valves would not extend the RPMs but maybe 1-200, and also another guess here but if you are using stock computer you only will get 7000 no matter how big the cam and light the valvetrain. I like Brets advice in picking up hollow stem Ferreas for probably 1/4th the price.

Forgot what I read, it was Mindgame that said the above ;)

CCCC...

Check into Ferrea's new hollow-stem valves if you're serious about lightening things up. They even offer a sodium-filled exhaust valve now. That'd be the ticket... and it'd save you a few bucks over Ti.

But you are right... valvetrain control is the name of the game and "lightweight" is a step in the right direction.

-Mindgame

Ditto on this....

You are talking about $35-$40 valves here rather than $80+ and they will give you all the gains you are talking about and not require CuBe seats.

Throw on what OldSStroker said about beehives and Ti retainers and you have one REALLY light setup. I've seen beehives work on SR stuff but it does limit your lift, the new small diameter light 26000 series springs from Comp will help fix you there.

Either way we are getting into a territory where it's $$$ for durability. It's much cheaper to replace $125 valve springs more often than it is to make a $300-$400 valve spring live 50-75% longer than the cheap spring.

Dammit Jonaddis, you beat me too it. BTW OldSStroker is my father. Like Darth Vader and Luke.

Bret

Ditto on this....

You are talking about $35-$40 valves here rather than $80+ and they will give you all the gains you are talking about and not require CuBe seats.

Throw on what OldSStroker said about beehives and Ti retainers and you have one REALLY light setup. I've seen beehives work on SR stuff but it does limit your lift, the new small diameter light 26000 series springs from Comp will help fix you there.

Either way we are getting into a territory where it's $$$ for durability. It's much cheaper to replace $125 valve springs more often than it is to make a $300-$400 valve spring live 50-75% longer than the cheap spring.

Dammit Jonaddis, you beat me too it. BTW OldSStroker is my father. Like Darth Vader and Luke.Bret


More like C3PO and R2D2? :)

ah, but if you can pick up a set of very low use Ti valves for less than the cost of the hollow step Ferreas, then that throws a bunch of things out of whack ;)

ah, but if you can pick up a set of very low use Ti valves for less than the cost of the hollow step Ferreas, then that throws a bunch of things out of whack ;)

I hope youre not referring to used nascar valves as "very low use" valves :eek:

I dunno if i could bring myself to buy anything from a valvetrain used except rockers.

The LS7 only has a 7000rpm redline. Why did they use titanium valves? My theory... Vette owners like to spend $$$$ if something sounds cool.
Steve...

Granted the $$/hp ratio isnt great when talking Ti, anything with that light a valvetrain no matter the redline will rev hella quick compared to a nice heavy steel train, not to mention lightweight reciprocating mass.

I was checking out the specs on that BMR T100 turbo SB2 engine they built. Had a crank from LA Billet, the kryptonite crank they call it. Couldnt believe my eyes, 28lbs!!!! A normal forged SBC crank is about 52lbs, 45 is lightweight when talking 4340 at a decent price. Unbelievable, only problem i see with a light rotating assembly is if you have a heavy car not much inertia there.

I hope youre not referring to used nascar valves as "very low use" valves :eek:

I dunno if i could bring myself to buy anything from a valvetrain used except rockers.
I wouldn't have a problem with running a valve out of a cup car. The only part that I would question is the stem life.

The Cup engines run higher seat angles than most street engines. They also run the seats on the very edge of the valve with thin margins. This promotes the valve trying to pull itself into the head. Not to mention, they usually run a large valve head diameter.

Just cut them down just past the "groove" that 1racerdude mentioned, then put the new angles that you will be running while leaving a thicker margin, and I think they'll be fine for limited street use.


Now, I'm not gonna be doing that, but maybe I should... I found a set of Ti valves that have pretty much no indicated wear. I was told that they had a little bit of dyno time on them only. The price was decent so I picked them up.

I wouldn't have a problem with running a valve out of a cup car. The only part that I would question is the stem life.

The Cup engines run higher seat angles than most street engines. They also run the seats on the very edge of the valve with thin margins. This promotes the valve trying to pull itself into the head. Not to mention, they usually run a large valve head diameter.

Just cut them down just past the "groove" that 1racerdude mentioned, then put the new angles that you will be running while leaving a thicker margin, and I think they'll be fine for limited street use.


Now, I'm not gonna be doing that, but maybe I should... I found a set of Ti valves that have pretty much no indicated wear. I was told that they had a little bit of dyno time on them only. The price was decent so I picked them up.


Don't you figure "that groove"will come back???? The Nascar stuff has small stems which is a high wear item.Ever thought why they sell those valves and not using them next race?

Don't you figure "that groove"will come back???? The Nascar stuff has small stems which is a high wear item.Ever thought why they sell those valves and not using them next race?

I like that point :)
Also, depending on the price you payed, the amount of money it would cost to do all the work in order for them to work again, then figure in the life they have left, and it probly would be better to buy new.

If I'm running half the spring pressure and 3000 RPM less than what a Cup engine does with a hydraulic lifter and less aggresive ramps, I think the grooves will take a while to get bad.

I don't intend on running these heads until I get another car to be my daily driver. When that happens this car will be my "racecar" :lol:

The used cup car valves floating around are what got me thinking about this in the first place. I've seen quite a few complete sets with standard stem diameters for sale at what I consider to be reasonable prices. Now that the other things have been mentioned though (holoow stems, etc..) I wonder just how much of a real improvement it would be to go with full Ti parts over the hollow stem stuff. I'm pretty serious about this valvetrain diet. I want the motor to be able to rev like cracking a whip, and I know it would be cheaper (by far) to just change the valvesprings every six months, but man what a pain in the butt it is to do on an F-Body! I despise doing it on the motor, and I can't justify the cost of pulling heads just to replace valvesprings. Seems to me that getting rid of the cause of the problem (high valvetrain mass) is the way to go. I can get away with MUCH less spring pressure than would otherwise be required AND have the parts live a nice long life on a relatively hot street motor.

Oh, and one reason I don't think they reuse parts on the cup cars is that they have the budget to do so. Why even bother with xraying to find a hidden crack inside a valve or some other critical part when you can just chuck em and put new ones in every time. I don't think Richard Childress (sp?) would want to lose a race due to 1500 bucks worth of valves. I could be wrong though :) It's not like THAT ever happens. lol!

Dave C.

...I want the motor to be able to rev like cracking a whip...If that's your goal then your #1 priority is sheer horespower. You'll notice that high horespower cars on chassis dynos making pulls don't take very long to make the pull, LOL. The more power an engine has the quicker it will rev. Now there are 10,000 routes to achieve this power as we all know. From what I'm reading in this thread I really get the impression that you are fixating on just one component of an entire combination. That's not a slam by any means as it happens a lot. The last thing you want to do is base an engine build up on valve material.
For what it's worth I have an exhaust valve out of John Force's F/C sitting on my desk... it's not titanium, it weighs a ton, and I assure you they spin their engine to the moon... and it revs kind of quick, LOL. Extreme example, but you get the idea.
Steve...

Is there any application for berrylium copper
valve seats, in cyl heads using ordinary SS valves.
I would guess that BC valve seats would
reduce valve temperature, but not sure.

Oh, and one reason I don't think they reuse parts on the cup cars is that they have the budget to do so. Why even bother with xraying to find a hidden crack inside a valve or some other critical part when you can just chuck em and put new ones in every time. I don't think Richard Childress (sp?) would want to lose a race due to 1500 bucks worth of valves. I could be wrong though :) It's not like THAT ever happens. lol!

Dave C.

That is a good point, although 8-9000 rpms consistantly for 3 hours or whatever (dont watch nascar so couldnt tell you) with ungodly spring pressure on ungodly steep ramps, with ungodly high lift just doesnt sound appetizing for a valve opening and closing 3-400 times before you could even see it move once.

Another interesting fact Ive heard...nascar (some) teams buy bulk valvesprings at the beginning of the season, 2500 of them to ballpark it, at $85 a piece, and less than half I think are even worthy of being used. Hmm I think ill go out today and buy $250000 worth of valvesprings! :eek:

If that's your goal then your #1 priority is sheer horespower. You'll notice that high horespower cars on chassis dynos making pulls don't take very long to make the pull, LOL. The more power an engine has the quicker it will rev. Now there are 10,000 routes to achieve this power as we all know. From what I'm reading in this thread I really get the impression that you are fixating on just one component of an entire combination. That's not a slam by any means as it happens a lot. The last thing you want to do is base an engine build up on valve material.
For what it's worth I have an exhaust valve out of John Force's F/C sitting on my desk... it's not titanium, it weighs a ton, and I assure you they spin their engine to the moon... and it revs kind of quick, LOL. Extreme example, but you get the idea.
Steve...


When I originally built this motor, the only thing I had to compromise on was the valvetrain. I would like to now go back and correct that. Basically I'm over 500 flywheel now, but there's more in this package with the right parts. I'm planning on switching to a set of ported trickflows, and wanted to go ahead and get the good parts right from the start this time. I've been meaning to hook up my bottle, but I'm a bit leary of it until I get the new heads (thicker deck surface for a little more insurance). Believe me, I researched this thing to death before buying the first part, and so far I've been happy with it. 117-118 traps in good air @ 3700 lb's aint too shabby (and that pig of a weight will be addressed next!) IMHO, but there's more in it, and I want to get the most out of the N/A combo, then spray the 150 shots on it and run the number.

I'm just doing homework again. :)

Dave C.

Well, I guess I'll find out whether they work on the street maybe late this year. I'm putting my "Nascar" heads on the 4.3 V6 AS-IS. Ti valves, and with the stock seats (changing to lighter springs for my street cam, however). AdioSS correctly points out these things have some THIN valve seats vs. a typical street head. Valve margins are not all that different, though. The heads I have use stock 11/32" valve stems on the valves (with some sort of alien high-tech friction coating on the stems).

Just to give you weekend warriors (like me) an idea how much lighter stuff like this is than typical steel parts check this out.....

Stock steel 1.94 intake valve: 108g
Titanium 2.08 race valve: 83g

Steel 1.45" reatiner: 32g
Titanium 1.55" retainer: 18g

Total difference: 39g and it's not even a fair comparison, obviously. That's like taking the weight of a small child out of your valvetrain!

Oh, this is gonna be fun! Even if it doesn't last long.

I predict it will last 499 miles, and blow up on the last lap ;) lol..

Dave C.

Oh, this is gonna be fun! Even if it doesn't last long.

A few things in life are like that...

That "groove" you guys mention...... do you think that has anything to do with the valve being made from titanium? :think:

Cause guess what... I've seen the same thing on SS valves. Kinda looks like someone put a chamfer on the edge of the lock groove. It's caused by valve bounce. Not just something that happens to a valve because it happens to be made from titanium. Use a bead lock and find a better valvespring.

I've run titanium valves in many different applications... both street and strip... and my moderate running strip cars (marginally streetable and worth mentioning for this discussion) would run on a set of ti valves for 2-3 seasons with very little evidence of wear. Based on my experiences, I don't get where some of you are coming from.

I'd guess that there were other issues like poor seat concentricity, excessive guide wear, valve bounce, etc.. 99.9% of the time, I think the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

contactpatch,

Yes, you're correct. Copper is a better seat in regards to heat transfer. Imperative when running Ti but also suitable for SS valves.

"C3PO & R2D2"

:lol:

I can believe that one a little better. ;)

Either that, or Bret gave in to the dark side of the force and bought a FORD! :eek:

-Mindgame

I didn't think Nascar could use exotic metals?
Also I think most Ti valves have a Hardened steel tip above the locks where the roller rides. CAuse Ti cannot be hardened to the extreme like steel.

Titanium is not a durable material. It is used for its weight properties in motorsports, period. It will last a weekend of cup racing and then its discarded. Titanium makes for a good spring material. It deforms easily. Titanuim rods have a life roughly 3 times longer than aluminum, way less than steel rods. Titanium retainers show wear after a good year of street driving. Titanium valves will have a seat indentation after some time of prolonged use. If you're set on buying some, just get the intakes. A stainless exhaust valve will be roughly the same weight as the intakes. There is a reason why you don't see titanium push rods, they deflect way too much. This should give you some idea.You used to see titanium valvesprings in blown alchohol and prostock, but not anymore. They are only good for about 2-3 passes before some would break, especially alchohol and at $1800 for 16 better stuff was developed.

And by the way, all titanuim valves are two piece.

Titanium is not a durable material. It is used for its weight properties in motorsports, period. It will last a weekend of cup racing and then its discarded.

Not as durable as hardened steel and less weight... I agree.

On the NASCAR weekend thing... how many cycles does your typical cup valve see in a 500 mile race anyways?
Is it really fair to compare a cup engine to a street/strip engine? :think:

Titanium makes for a good spring material. It deforms easily.

Well, I think your 1st reason... the weight... hit home a little better. Reduced mass and inertia is bound to do nice things for a spring's natural frequency. Ti springs also don't need as tight a coiling to do their job... usually having a larger wire diameter and fewer coils. They aren't stressed to the same level as a steel spring and they tend to be more resistant to taking a set.

They have their place, although I'd agree that the street aint one of those places.

Titanuim rods have a life roughly 3 times longer than aluminum, way less than steel rods.

Where did you get this from?

I had more than 200 passes on a set of GRP's in my old top sportsman car. A lifter failure shut that one down. The rods went into a friends car and I think it ran a couple of seasons on them.


There is a reason why you don't see titanium push rods, they deflect way too much. This should give you some idea.

That's the slow side of the valvetrain... why would the use of Titanium make any sense where stiffness, not weight, was of most importance?

You used to see titanium valvesprings in blown alchohol and prostock, but not anymore. They are only good for about 2-3 passes before some would break, especially alchohol and at $1800 for 16 better stuff was developed.

There are still plenty of guys running Ti valvesprings. Not that it really means much cause some are still running "Pink" rods too. :)

Either way, I know of one very successful Pro Mod car running titanium valvesprings to this day. Went to Manley NexTek springs for testing, then right back to Ti for all of last season.

And by the way, all titanuim valves are two piece.

Can you show me a 2 piece titanium valve?

Manley, Victory, Ferrea and Del West are all very popular and they're also 1 piece.

-Mindgame

Titanium is not a durable material. It is used for its weight properties in motorsports, period. It will last a weekend of cup racing and then its discarded. Titanium makes for a good spring material. It deforms easily. Titanuim rods have a life roughly 3 times longer than aluminum, way less than steel rods. Titanium retainers show wear after a good year of street driving. Titanium valves will have a seat indentation after some time of prolonged use. If you're set on buying some, just get the intakes. A stainless exhaust valve will be roughly the same weight as the intakes. There is a reason why you don't see titanium push rods, they deflect way too much. This should give you some idea.You used to see titanium valvesprings in blown alchohol and prostock, but not anymore. They are only good for about 2-3 passes before some would break, especially alchohol and at $1800 for 16 better stuff was developed.

And by the way, all titanuim valves are two piece.

Don't tell Honda and GM Ti rods and valves can't last. They may have to scrap the S2000 engine and the LS7. Oh heck, maybe they tested them for durability and found they could last. :)

A Cup engine turns over more than a million revs (1/2 mil valve actions) in a race weekend. 100,000 miles at an average speed of 40 mph and 2500 rpm is about 375 million revs or over 180 million valve actions. Even 50k miles is over 90 million valve actions.

Ti pushrods can work. A few series have banned them. When you are into 1/2 or 9/16 diameter double tapered pushrods at 10K, every few grams helps.

Hollow stem Ti valve must necessarily be multi-piece in order to gun drill the stem. Stem and head could be one piece though, which is probably what Mindgame meant.

FWIW, in addition to being light, Ti is pretty good at resisting heat also, and for a long time thru many heat cycles.

My $.02

GM also uses titanium for the pushrods and valve springs in the LS7.

I talked to Del-West before I assembled my last creation, and they told me there was no way to tell the life of ti valves. He said I could break a new one just as easy as my used cup ones. So he figured I'd be just as well off using what I had. Kinda sounded alot like any other metal out there. JFYI.

Indeed the limited production LS7 incorporates Ti intake valves as well as connecting rods. The jury will be out for a while on street durability.
My information on con rod life come directly from Crower and has been substantiated by a couple higher end engine builders that were customers of mine. Feel free to call Crower if you dispute the accuracy of my post.

Manley and Ferrea's Ti valves are indeed 2 piece. Call them too if you disagree. The heads are friction welded to the stems. I do not know why the material requires this to be so. This information comes from tech seminars I attended by both Manley and Ferrea. I can tell you that if you were to encounter valve float and touched a piston enough to slightly bend the valve the straghtening effect of the valve returning to its seat over and over would probably result in the head coming off. Obviously this is what you are trying to avoid by going to a Ti valve in the first place, but it should be noted. Ferrea displays its stainless valves at trade shows bent to look like a pretzel with no apparent damage to demonstate its toughness.

If pushrod side valvetrain weight weren't important there would be no such things as revkits and ceramic lifters. The absolute most important part of the valvetrain is to be as stiff and durable as possible, this is why Ti pushrods aren't considered. Even a 7/16 - 1/2" 4130 tapered pushrod on a tall deck IHRA prostock engine has enough flex to open up the head gasket holes and contact the block.

Ask any cylinder head shop that routinely sees Ti valves about valve seat wear on titanium (valve face). The margin can really get thin after some use. I have personally seen several examples as I had considered it for a project of mine myself.

I claim to be no expert on all aspects of performance, but I do back up my statements with my own real world professional experience/education and the experience of my customers. I do not make my tech up. If this board would rather I not share my information then I will remain silent but I refuse to be bashed in anonymity.

Mindgame: I have picked the pieces out of the cylinder heads of NHRA prostock, NHRA TAD, and IHRA promod titanium vavlesprings between rounds to replace them. The material has fairly high notch sensitivity and my feeling is that whoever is currenty winding them is unable to take the proper precautions to ensure long life. They also require the use of a teflon liner so they don't rub together.

I claim to be no expert on all aspects of performance, but I do back up my statements with my own real world professional experience/education and the experience of my customers. I do not make my tech up. If this board would rather I not share my information then I will remain silent but I refuse to be bashed in anonymity.


Mark,

We're not trying to bash you here. Stick around and join in the fun!

Maybe what set some of us off are unsupported statements like:

Titanium is not a durable material. It is used for its weight properties in motorsports, period. It will last a weekend of cup racing and then its discarded.

Titanium is a very durable material. It is used extensively in jet engines, for which durabililty is a life/death matter. It has excellent fatigue resistance and is the strongest metal available in absolute strength per pound. It has an endurance limit approaching that of steel, unlike aluminum which has a very low endurance limit.

I suggest that Cup rotating or reciprocating parts are replaced after one race because they may be designed to last only that long (plus a safety factor) and because the teams cannot afford to chance having a part fail if replacing with an unused one is possible.

The absolute most important part of the valvetrain is to be as stiff and durable as possible, this is why Ti pushrods aren't considered.

You are absolutely correct that stiffness is most critical in a valvetrain. The resistance to buckling of a tube in compression varies in direct proportion with the Young's Modulus (YM) of the material. That is the "elasticity" of the material or the proportionality coefficient between stress(load/area) and strain (deflection). Titanium has a YM of about 50% that of steel, any steel. Aluminum is about 33% of steel. Interestingly, the density of Titanium is about half that of steel and aluminum is about 1/3 that of steel.

So, you would think that you'd need twice as much titanium as steel to accomplish the same stiffness, so there would be no weight savings for a pushrod. Almost, but not quite.

A tube's resistance to buckling also depends more strongly on its wall thickness. As a result, a small increase in wall thickness makes up for a large reduction in YM. If we want to assign a number that reflects a particular tube material's sensitivity to buckling, we need to divide, not the Young's Modulus by the material's density, but rather the square root of the Young's Modulus by the density.

If the YM of steel is approx. 30 (million psi) and it's density is approx .30 (lb/cubic inch)and titanium's YM is approx. 15 and it's density .15, dividing (sqr rt 30) by .3 = 18.26 and (sqr rt 15) by .15 = 25.82 or about 40% stiffer for the titanium tube based on weight.

(See Race Car Chassis Design and Construction by Forbes Aird, Race Car Engineering and Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh and Engineer To Win by Carroll Smith. All are very understandable non-texbook style presentations.)

Indeed the limited production LS7 incorporates Ti intake valves as well as connecting rods. The jury will be out for a while on street durability.

You might not understand what kind of durability testing OEMs subject any production engine to. Ask some OEM engineers who post here. It's been a long while since I was personally involved, but I am assured that durability testing today is as least as rigorous, and most often more rigorous than in years past. While it's true that some customers find ways to operate their engines that even the very insidious test engineers didn't envision, I don't believe that you, or me, the potential customers for an LS7, will be the beta testers.

Again, not trying to bust your chops (all evidence to the contrary :) ), but you need to support your claims.

Stay around, please.


Jon

Titanium is a very durable material. It is used extensively in jet engines, for which durabililty is a life/death matter.

Ive got to chime in on this with my slightly offtopic[as usual] two cents.
-NASA's X-15, all time speed and altitude records for manned flight[still standing] of Mach 6.72[4,534mph] and 354,200 ft.Titanium/inconel-x intensive construction.
-Lockheed SR71 Blackbird,manned production aircraft records, speed and level altitude flight, 2,193.167mph and 85,068.997ft,respectively.
Titanium intensive construction.

FWIW,I dont think you, markinck69, should leave this forum.I only registered a couple mos. ago but have been following ad. tech for over a year and the reason the discussions are so interesting and involved is because there are so many opinions and information from members who are sharing their own experience..Like a big tech bench race session,you take what you want from it,leave what you dont,and maybe get an insight or approach to a problem you hadnt thought of, or information you didnt have before.

Looks to me like this has become a moot point.

If I were to take anything from this post it would be from Jon (oldstroker) being a metallurgist and all, not to mention ME. Sounds like Mindgame has experience with them, but all the experiences have been different between who you talk to, so.....

First off.... Mark, welcome to the forum. :)

I didn't mean to dispense with all formalities but I am a too-the-point kinda guy and your statements just didn't/don't seem well founded to me. Like OS said earlier... you have to back these up with facts and I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many here.

Indeed the limited production LS7 incorporates Ti intake valves as well as connecting rods. The jury will be out for a while on street durability.

Mark, there are still a number of Acura NSX's running around and they all came with Ti conecting rods. The Ferrari F40 is another, although most F40 owmers aren't members of the high mileage club.
Hey, if I can complete a 24 Hours of LeMans with a set of Ti connecting rods, why wouldn't they last 100,000+ miles in my street car?
If they are durable enough for GM's endurance tests, why are we saying they aren't durable enough?

Manley and Ferrea's Ti valves are indeed 2 piece. Call them too if you disagree. The heads are friction welded to the stems. I do not know why the material requires this to be so. This information comes from tech seminars I attended by both Manley and Ferrea. I can tell you that if you were to encounter valve float and touched a piston enough to slightly bend the valve the straghtening effect of the valve returning to its seat over and over would probably result in the head coming off. Obviously this is what you are trying to avoid by going to a Ti valve in the first place, but it should be noted.

Makes absolutely no sense to me that a company would forge a valve head, friction weld the stem to it, then build a webpage that states... "Forged one piece construction with grain flow
(Not a head welded to a stem.)"

http://www.manleyperformance.com/titvlvs.html

Ask any cylinder head shop that routinely sees Ti valves about valve seat wear on titanium (valve face). The margin can really get thin after some use. I have personally seen several examples as I had considered it for a project of mine myself.

I'll ask Don Losito the next time I see him. The talks I've had on this issue all trace back to seat concentricity (#1) and controlling valve bounce (#2). The concentricity is a machining issue and from what I understand, many "good" heads aren't even very good in this area. The valve bounce is easier to control as the valve-side of the valvetrain gets lighter. Springs, retainers, valves... everything as a system.

The guys I know, who are using Ti valvesprings for instance, are using them because they have a higher resonating frequency. It's not that things get bad at some arbitrary rpm, then stay bad from there up... it's that there's a "bad spot" somewhere along the way. Titanium, may be the ticket to pushing that bad harmonic further up the rpm scale...... somewhere the engine will never reach.

I claim to be no expert on all aspects of performance, but I do back up my statements with my own real world professional experience/education and the experience of my customers. I do not make my tech up. If this board would rather I not share my information then I will remain silent but I refuse to be bashed in anonymity.

You'll find that the same is true of the people on this forum. We all come here to share our experiences and once you look around a while you'll come to find that many of us aren't exactly new to this stuff. So welcome.. I hope you continue to contribute well founded facts to the forum.

-Mindgame

The guys I know, who are using Ti valvesprings for instance, are using them because they have a higher resonating frequency. It's not that things get bad at some arbitrary rpm, then stay bad from there up... it's that there's a "bad spot" somewhere along the way. Titanium, may be the ticket to pushing that bad harmonic further up the rpm scale...... somewhere the engine will never reach.





How would one go about deciding that valvesprings are causing a bad harmonic at a certain RPM? I mean how would you narrow it down that far that its not say a balancer, or rod, or something else?

How would one go about deciding that valvesprings are causing a bad harmonic at a certain RPM? I mean how would you narrow it down that far that its not say a balancer, or rod, or something else?
it helps to have a dyno. You will see where power drops a little then gets back on track. It sorta looks like it goes into valve float then gets out of it a little later.

I understand that, but what makes it the valvesprings causing it. Or is it just an educated guess?

Jon,

A spintron also helps a bunch in this area.....

All springs have a set resonant frequency or two, or three etc.... That's one thing that makes a beehive nice, the tightening coils have different frequencies... the one BIG WAVE (frequency) you have operating at the same frequency makes for uncontrollable valve motion at certain RPM while lots of very little waves make very small impacts on valve motion. Think of a single or dual non beehive spring as the BIG WAVE in this example and the beehive as lots of small waves... Does less damage with lots of small waves and not a Tsunami.


I think the best case of resonant frequency was with a bridge called "galloping gerdie" or something of the sort.... You know the famous film of a bridge shaking all around like a hula dancer... the wind caused it to operate in it's resonant frequency and it when to hell in a hand basket VERY quickly.

Bret

BTW good pulp fiction quote in the sig.... or maybe you are just a fan of Ezekiel and his visons of space craft or whatever he saw.

Jon,
All springs have a set resonant frequency or two, or three etc....

I think the best case of resonant frequency was with a bridge called "galloping gerdie" or something of the sort.... You know the famous film of a bridge shaking all around like a hula dancer... the wind caused it to operate in it's resonant frequency and it when to hell in a hand basket VERY quickly.


I had to do a double take on that first quote Bret. Yes, dual or triple valve springs have 2 or 3 resonant frequencies. At first i thought you were talking harmonics. If someone was hitting the higher order harmonics then they picked a really terrible spring in the first place:)

Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

-brent

Thanks man on that bridge....

I hope that made sense what I said... This is coming from the non engineer in the family explaining this topic.... Hope I absorbed it well.

A side note to this.... back in the days of Dale Earnhardt RCR was having a problem on plate motors with this.... breaking springs left and right. Well they kept slowing the motor down more and more to stop breaking springs and they walked into the worse RPM range for the spring and valvetrain setup they had so it made it worse. Then they talked with Comp about it and fixed the problem. It can be a very baffling thing to run into, especially with narrow RPM cup motors.

Bret

Well, I guess I'll find out whether they work on the street maybe late this year. I'm putting my "Nascar" heads on the 4.3 V6 AS-IS. Ti valves, and with the stock seats (changing to lighter springs for my street cam, however). AdioSS correctly points out these things have some THIN valve seats vs. a typical street head. Valve margins are not all that different, though. The heads I have use stock 11/32" valve stems on the valves (with some sort of alien high-tech friction coating on the stems).

Just to give you weekend warriors (like me) an idea how much lighter stuff like this is than typical steel parts check this out.....

Stock steel 1.94 intake valve: 108g
Titanium 2.08 race valve: 83g

Steel 1.45" reatiner: 32g
Titanium 1.55" retainer: 18g

Total difference: 39g and it's not even a fair comparison, obviously. That's like taking the weight of a small child out of your valvetrain!

Oh, this is gonna be fun! Even if it doesn't last long.
What color is the coating on your valves? Dark greyish and kinda thick feeling, or gold, or almost clear? How long are your valves?

The ones I found are also 2.080 for the intakes. They are 5.445" long and weigh 87 grams. I also got 1.625 exhaust valves that are 5.495" long and they weigh 79 grams. Those weights are just a little more than the hollow stem LT4 valves, but still a good bit less than even stock LT1 valves. The only problem is that they are older Manley valves with the old thick coating which has been known to flake on occasion... I am probably going to run some of Comp's beehive springs with Ti retainers. I might as well mention that I've got Jesel Pro Series shaft rockers that have had the optional lightening and bead-blasting done to them, so you can say that these heads are going to have a pretty serious valvetrain...

Thanks man on that bridge....

I hope that made sense what I said... This is coming from the non engineer in the family explaining this topic.... Hope I absorbed it well.


Well either way i'll attempt to further explain for the both of us.

All spring/valve systems have and infinite number of resonant frequencies. As cyclic motion (rpm) increases in frequency the first resonant frequency encounterd is described as: the natural frequency, the resonant freq, the first harmonic ect.

Usually this is the primary design concern. The additional resonant frequencies, or harmonics, are at multiples of the natural frequency. Thus the terms 2nd, 3rd, xth order harmonics.

A double valve spring has 2 springs and therefore 2 different natural frequencies occuring at different rpms. Between the 2 of them they can maintain control of the valve. The behive as bret described has a range of varying natural frecuencies as the radius changes. Both of these methods of controlling the impact of the natural frequency work similarly to cancel out or 'self damp' the uncontrolled vibration. The behive also has the advantage of a lighter retainer.

If you are reaching multiple harmonics (actual harmonics and not just zeroing in n the nat freq) with a valvespring then it was very poorly designed because the harmonics occur when you double or triple your rpm. To do that you'd have to hit the first harmonic (natural frequncy) at a very low rpm.

There are some very interesting resonant feq / harmonic issues in suspension and tire design. I haven't studied the actual math of the valvesprings in detail.

-brent

I should have added to the above that a ti spring being lighter would raise the natural frequency to a higher RPM just as Mindgame said earlier in the thread, maybe avoiding the resonance problem all together.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dreambike.com/images/loopvamoots4.jpg

Yes titanium is quite resiliant. I was first exposed to its wonderful properties over 10 years ago in the bicycle industry.

Did anyone know that titanium is the 9th most common element in the earths crust? Now if only there was a more economic way to seperate all the junk from it and it was a lil easier to weld and machine.... (don't anyone steal my plan for the nobel prize)

-brent

Jon,

I think the best case of resonant frequency was with a bridge called "galloping gerdie" or something of the sort.... You know the famous film of a bridge shaking all around like a hula dancer... the wind caused it to operate in it's resonant frequency and it when to hell in a hand basket VERY quickly.

Bret

BTW good pulp fiction quote in the sig.... or maybe you are just a fan of Ezekiel and his visons of space craft or whatever he saw.

I remember seeing video of that bridge, was fine until like 30-40mph winds or something and turned into a big noodle :eek: I wonder if that engineer(or team of engineers) ever got work again after that :cool:

That sounds more scientific now. So is it something that you could measure with a ??"sound frequency measurer"??? (dont think thats the tech. term :D ). Since the valvespring manufacturer might know what the springs natural frequency is?

jon

Yeah, wasnt sure if people would recognize it, I figure ill finish the quote out week by week:)

How would one go about deciding that valvesprings are causing a bad harmonic at a certain RPM? I mean how would you narrow it down that far that its not say a balancer, or rod, or something else?

To better analyze the valvetrain and eliminate the effects of noise and vibration caused by combustion and reciprocating components, you'd use an eletric motor to cycle the engine. Ala Spintron.

Many years ago, and working at Algor, we delved pretty deeply into a computational modeling project geared towards valve spring dynamics and developing a simple modal approach for linear valvesprings. Most important was acquiring a discrete description of a spring..... varying coil diameter, pitch, modeling implications of coil clash, etcetera.

I remember going over a great deal of post graduate level materials for that project cause even with a staff of very bright engineers, the mathematics were still in a state of on going evolution. Too make a long story short, I soon came to the realization that (at that time) computers simply hadn't evolved to a state necessary in dealing with those types of calculations. At least, not on the PC level. Either way, we built on two models... a modal model for progressive springs in a frequency domain... aka, "fun with Fourier techniques for time variant systems" and a complex discrete model. Both had their strengths and weaknesses but given todays technology, especially in the realm of solid models/accurate spring "descriptions"... we could have done something really snazzy.

But I digress... the point of all that is.... simulation can be a big help. One test is worth a thousand simulations, but a sim will get you moving in the right direction. Rest assured in knowing that the BIG guys are utilizing both.

edit: what's really intersting is seeing what happens to a camshaft at 6000 rpm and up. :eek:
Will make you think twice about trying to save a few bucks by staying away from a billet.

-Mindgame

Sounds interesting. I guess something like a spring would seem very difficult to mathematically model, since there are so many variables involves with metal hardness, the memory the metal has, etc. etc. But knowing even a fraction of what places like NASA are capable of researching seems like it would be a piece of cake for them.

There is never anything easy about simulation. Statics are somewhat easy... but the world is dynamic and that's where you fall into a mountain of high level mathematics in a big hurry.

This is why I chuckle when I hear my nephew, aspiring engineer, say... "I can't wait to get into thermodynamics" or something along those lines.
The only person who thinks they'll really enjoy it are those who've never taken the class. Either that, or they're the types that'll never get laid. ;)
These concepts are hard to get your head around and you can truely appreciate that when you've been there.

NASA is too busy filtering their own urine so they can drink it later. :D

Valvespring dynamics modeling is very specialized though. Not a whole bunch of people doing it on an R&D level.

-Mindgame

Do you know (or think) that OEMs take any of this into acct, or is it something that doesnt need to be worried about at the lower RPMs? I would think somebody like GM, or BMW/Benz more likely, would have the ability to deal with stuff like this.

I don't doubt that there's a good deal of in house testing going on, but I would be willing to bet that companies like GM are using Ricardo's dynamic modeling software to come up with intital designs. That, a good deal of experience, lots of testing along with consultation will get the job done.
The groundwork is out there, so we're not tallking about reinventing the wheel... just making it better.

On that note, anything you can find on Sir Henry Ricardo is well worth reading. I have a book at the office (can not remember the title) that is 5-star reading material all the way. I'll post the title when I get a chance tomorrow.

http://software.ricardo.com/products/

-Mindgame

Did you mean Sir Harry Ricardo, and maybe "The high speed internal combustion engine"?

edit: what's really intersting is seeing what happens to a camshaft at 6000 rpm and up. :eek:
Will make you think twice about trying to save a few bucks by staying away from a billet.

Yep.... Most street guys never see it but the torsional motions of a camshaft are a bit scary..... One of the reasons racers go to larger journals and the same reason the LS1 is that way, a larger journal cam is a stiffer cam and has more accurate timing cylinder to cylinder because it is less likely to deflect and cause inaccurate timing.

I've been touting these things for a while now.... one reason why I stick to billet cores for motors that turn over 6000rpm


The only person who thinks they'll really enjoy it are those who've never taken the class. Either that, or they're the types that'll never get laid.

That's awesome.... good comment.

Bret

Yep.... Most street guys never see it but the torsional motions of a camshaft are a bit scary..... One of the reasons racers go to larger journals and the same reason the LS1 is that way, a larger journal cam is a stiffer cam and has more accurate timing cylinder to cylinder because it is less likely to deflect and cause inaccurate timing.

I've been touting these things for a while now.... one reason why I stick to billet cores for motors that turn over 6000rpm




That's awesome.... good comment.

Bret


Most of these guys have never run spring pressure in excess of 600#(like 1000#+) or the lift to go with it(1"+),so most don't have any idea what a cam goes through.
Most cams here are hyd roller and most HR cam's I have built are with a billet core,even with 350-400# on the nose.Most won't spend the extra bucks or know the advantages of a billet core.

since you guys are talking about valvetrain dynamics, what are your thoughts on gun-drilled camshafts? This is another thing that GM has done with the Gen3 motors that sparked my interest.

This is why I chuckle when I hear my nephew, aspiring engineer, say... "I can't wait to get into thermodynamics" or something along those lines.
The only person who thinks they'll really enjoy it are those who've never taken the class. Either that, or they're the types that'll never get laid. ;)

thats rough dude.whether its because im an aeronautical engineering major in progress[who does get laid,thank you very much]or whether its the fact its totally true any even basic level class will bend your brain in 5 different ways,and its onlt gonna get worse,i cant decide.damn you and youre truth,Mindgame! J/K.
Anyway my dad used to contract for NASA;so i got to sit in on some of the scramjet research/testing[the field i want] here at JPL just to get an idea of what it was about,and man, was i over my head but it was the most stimulating "bench racing" ive ever seen, imagine a bunch of dudes comparing and interpreting dyno results but everyone has [multiple] degrees and there are computer models with thousand of points compared to hp/rpm graphs.Im stoked about it,whether or not i can hack differential equations and the like to get there remains to be seen....

thats rough dude.whether its because im an aeronautical engineering major in progress[who does get laid,thank you very much]or whether its the fact its totally true any even basic level class will bend your brain in 5 different ways,and its onlt gonna get worse,i cant decide.damn you and youre truth,Mindgame! J/K.
Anyway my dad used to contract for NASA;so i got to sit in on some of the scramjet research/testing[the field i want] here at JPL just to get an idea of what it was about,and man, was i over my head but it was the most stimulating "bench racing" ive ever seen, imagine a bunch of dudes comparing and interpreting dyno results but everyone has [multiple] degrees and there are computer models with thousand of points compared to hp/rpm graphs.Im stoked about it,whether or not i can hack differential equations and the like to get there remains to be seen....


Keep at it, stealthblack. Thermo and diff-eq taxed my brain also so very long ago, but it was worth the fight. No, I didn't "look forward" to thermo class.

FWIW, isn't "steathblack" redundant? :)

A very good friend of mine has a one digit Bandit number. Unfortunately, he couldn't share much of what he knew for a long time. He didn't want to have to shoot me.

FWIW-2, the best engineers that I know are the also the best communicators. Take as many of the writing and speaking courses as you can squeeze in during your undergrad years. It will pay back big dividends.

Good luck.

The bridge that failed, Tacoma Narrows bridge I think.

The failure was due to harmonics, but the cause was the wind.

The wind blowing across the span caused vortexes to form on the sides of the bridge, when the vortexes detached they caused a vibration that happened to match the natural frequency of the bridge.

You would think that the bridge would fail due to live load such as trucks and cars. But the engineers designed for that. Civil engineers don't work much with air flow. So they got blind sided by the vortex vibration.

The location of the bridge was in a narrow valley that funneled the wind.

So the real problem was the aerodynamics of the bridge.

*Note: Anyone know of any good Mechanical engineering jobs that haven't been outsourced yet?


Z28

Most of these guys have never run spring pressure in excess of 600#(like 1000#+) or the lift to go with it(1"+),so most don't have any idea what a cam goes through.
Most cams here are hyd roller and most HR cam's I have built are with a billet core,even with 350-400# on the nose.Most won't spend the extra bucks or know the advantages of a billet core.


Figure that something like a Comp 977 Dual spring with 1.6:1 rockers puts 600-700lbs on the lobes.....

That's why I only do billet cams.... might as well give people the good stuff for the money.

Bret

Keep at it, stealthblack. Thermo and diff-eq taxed my brain also so very long ago, but it was worth the fight. No, I didn't "look forward" to thermo class.

FWIW, isn't "steathblack" redundant? :)

A very good friend of mine has a one digit Bandit number. Unfortunately, he couldn't share much of what he knew for a long time. He didn't want to have to shoot me.

FWIW-2, the best engineers that I know are the also the best communicators. Take as many of the writing and speaking courses as you can squeeze in during your undergrad years. It will pay back big dividends.

Good luck.
thank you, i will. :thumb:
Im lucky in that i used to be an instructor, so i have great comm skills[now to figure out how to cut the swearing] writing im working on.
It was gonna be just stealth but that was too short for the computer.black z that looks bone stock but is not=stealthblack

[QUOTE=1racerdude]Most of these guys have never run spring pressure in excess of 600#(like 1000#+) or the lift to go with it(1"+),so most don't have any idea what a cam goes through.
QUOTE]
are not blown fuel cams and the like ground in anticipation of torsional flex under load??I thought i heard something like that but cant remember// or even PS or TS cams with 1"+??

Figure that something like a Comp 977 Dual spring with 1.6:1 rockers puts 600-700lbs on the lobes.....

That's why I only do billet cams.... might as well give people the good stuff for the money.

Bret

Yea,you're right.
If you tell a customer $300.00+ for a cam,he's going to say "I can get a cam for $189.00 out of so-n-so's catalog" so there you go.

[QUOTE=1racerdude]Most of these guys have never run spring pressure in excess of 600#(like 1000#+) or the lift to go with it(1"+),so most don't have any idea what a cam goes through.
QUOTE]
are not blown fuel cams and the like ground in anticipation of torsional flex under load??I thought i heard something like that but cant remember// or even PS or TS cams with 1"+??

You are correct.

Most of these guys have never run spring pressure in excess of 600#(like 1000#+) or the lift to go with it(1"+),so most don't have any idea what a cam goes through.

are not blown fuel cams and the like ground in anticipation of torsional flex under load??I thought i heard something like that but cant remember// or even PS or TS cams with 1"+??


There might be a few other pushrod engines where that's done, like 9500 rpm endurance engines (over a million revs per race) with flat tappets.

I have a question for the engineers on here.

I am currently at Wyotech in automotive and chassis fab. School isnt anything like the recruiters make it sound (big surprise). Not saying its a bad school, we learn alot, but we just learn how to be Technicians and work in a dealership. Although it is a good basis for any performance application, it just isnt what I was looking for.

I have taken a class at a reputable engine builders shop who builds for a few top fuel teams I guess, and has worked as a head engine builder for (SP?) Kuwickis NAscar team in the early 90s before he died. This class was very helpful in a lot of "nitty gritty" engine building techniques and parts choice, but still not to the level I want.

What I am getting at is that if I am not able to attain a job in the field I want out of here: that being either a bigname fuel drag team, or something in the F1/Indy type racing environment. Or at a big name engine building shop, or R/D for engines, just that broad spectrum of things.

I have lately been thinking if I do not find a career like that, that I might go back to finish what I started in ME a year and ahalf ago. What Im wondering is if a ME degree is a really big help in this field, I dont want to sit behind a desk designing parts for washing machines, I want to work at least in this field, but designing connecting rods or things like that would be awesome, especially on specialized projects for GM like the LS7 or something.

I know it wouldnt be a waste, but I dont want to spend 4 years becoming an ME and not do what I want to do, I can learn anything very quickly, and would not NEED the schooling to be good at something, but I know you need a degree to get started somewhere that you can learn even more.

Yeah and so and so's $189 cam ain't nothing special... some guys know that and some guys don't.

Hell wearing off a lobe on a soft cast cam that's a bitch too..... billet cams have enough positives to me that it's crazy NOT to run them.

As for the ME degree...... it helps a ton. I kinda wish I had one.... it doesn't fit me due to a lot of things one of them the idea that I could design parts for a washing machine is one of them.

Getting into doing the cool stuff like motors is a lot harder. The amount of knowledge that you need to actually be a engineer in a race team is staggering..... and you need experience in the field, that's the hard part you can't get anywhere without experience. It's great stuff to work on but like anything it has it's drawbacks.... customer, problem parts etc....

I did it by having my own shop..... most guys go and work for someone like WJ or Kaase, DEI, RCR etc....

Bret

Did you mean Sir Harry Ricardo, and maybe "The high speed internal combustion engine"?

Nah, that would have been too easy. ;)

I was talking about (and thinking about Henry Royce, hence the slip) his biography, Engines & Enterprise, The Life and Work of Sir Harry Ricardo ISBN# 0750917121. Very interesting read.

Not as techy as some may like but then again it is a biography.

In regards to getting your ME degree.... you'd better get on with it, cause from the sound of things, you won't be happy without it. Been a long time since college for me but I do know about the SAE car building programs and that sounds like something that might be right up your alley. Not only that but it would look nice on a resume... promotes the image of being a "team player" and employers like to see that.
If you're working towards an ME, then you might want to lean things as much as possible towards the automotive specialty side of it. Do a Google search for "automotive engineer" and I'm sure you'll get a better idea.

I am not an engineer, although I have taken many engineering courses throughout and beyond my college years. Continued education is a necessity in my field cause as a programmer, you have to know enough math and physics law to carry you through a variety of different projects. I've done a little bit of everything over the years but not having an ME degree has never slowed me down in what I do.

You're young and eager to learn... that's good. Just remember to take a step back every once in a while and reflect on what you're doing. Try to learn something new everyday.

Best of luck.

-Mindgame

I have lately been thinking if I do not find a career like that, that I might go back to finish what I started in ME a year and ahalf ago. What Im wondering is if a ME degree is a really big help in this field, I dont want to sit behind a desk designing parts for washing machines, I want to work at least in this field, but designing connecting rods or things like that would be awesome, especially on specialized projects for GM like the LS7 or something.

I know it wouldnt be a waste, but I dont want to spend 4 years becoming an ME and not do what I want to do, I can learn anything very quickly, and would not NEED the schooling to be good at something, but I know you need a degree to get started somewhere that you can learn even more.

Mech E is by far the most diverse engineering degree. I didn't say basic, cause its by far not the easiest, but it has the most applications so you'll always be usefull to some company somewhere. I'm sure a ME degree would help a great deal with the jobs you listed. One thing that i'll warn you of though is that the automotive elective classes you can take at even a good engineering school are somewhat limited. Even though its a 400 level elective, most of the other students won't have your level of interest and the knowledge you've gained from this site and books. I ended up being an unnofficial teachers aid in some of the automotive electives i took.

Now if you want to get into the automotive field the best place to go is probably Kettering (formerly GMI) where Jon OldSS went. I have a cousin who went there who works for GM. Yeah it would be great to design some part of the next gen corvette, or be anywhere in powertrain for that matter, but there are definitly some mundane jobs at GM not much better than designing washing machine parts. Your gonna have to pay the piper first before someone hands you that dream job. I have another cousin who worked for DANA-Spicer who makes the corvette frames, same deal there.

Back to your question about working for racing teams. An ME degree would be a great resume point, but you are still gonna need a lot of real world experience working on cars, good technical skills, and good communication skills. Remember, thats the dream job of most of us here:)

I "gave up" my professional automotive ambitions to work for a fortune 500 company that was local to me and resorted to being an automotive hobbyist. I have 2.5 years in at that company and yes sometimes I regret it not going for a job at GM ect. To be honest though there is a lot of other interesting machinery out there that you can fall in love with if your a mechanically inclined person. Personally i'd take being an ME degree with the option of taking a job in another interesting industry over getting stuck in a mundane jobs just because they are automotive related.

I guess the point of my ramblings is that yes, go for you MechE degree.

-brent

Been a long time since college for me but I do know about the SAE car building programs and that sounds like something that might be right up your alley. Not only that but it would look nice on a resume... promotes the image of being a "team player" and employers like to see that.

Good point about the SAE stuff. Since i worked through college I didn't have the time to make the commitment to those activities so i never got too involved. I was also a lil turned off by some of the ambitious gear head know it alls who really didn't know squat, but to be a 'team player' you have to deal with them also. From the lil i do know of the programs at PSU, they were pretty much limited to chasis design and bolt on engine components. In other words your not going to get in detail into porting and hardcore engine stuff unless you go to someplace like SAM. Kettering likely has more involved programs too.

I'd like to go to SAM, i think with my ME degree that could take me somewhere, but i'd be taking quite a paycut to go back to school and the first couple years even. Wouldn't be a bad route to go though if you were never used to a big paycheck. I like my job now anyways so i can't justify moving half way accross the country and taking such big risks.

-brent

Do them BOTH!

The great thing about mechanics school is when you go back to the ME program you'll know whata wrench is, how to use it, and be able to get the right size socket within a couple of grabs. The guys around you will in many instances be learning how to use a torque wrench for the first time....

Both programs will help you. KNowing how to physically put it together what some of the basic problem solving will put you ahead of the guy who is learning all of this stuff in college only. That is unless he plays with his civic or golf in his spare time...

Jason

The University of Toledo is in my home town, and when I was attending there they were the #1 engineering program in the counrty, so Ill probably go there so I can still live at home and save some cash.

They have a really good SAE car program so I would definitely get involved with that, sounded really awesome at the time. I know I would probably have to take just a good paying job at first, and just keep around the racing scene to try to get in with that. I was told by my instructor the absolute best way to get a job in racing is just to hang out at the track and go around talking to every team possible, and just keep dropping off resumes.

Well see though, maybe Ill get what I want without going through school.
Thanks for the opinions guys.

jon

Yes, General Motors Institute (GMI), now Kettering, turned out a few outstanding engineers who made it in the motor racing world. Some are pretty well known, some are not unless you have an interest in the history.

In the 60s, GM owned the school, and all co-op work experience was with a GM division. A student had to be "sponsored" by a division, and in the car divisions, often by a specific department. The choice sponsor departments were Chevrolet Engineering Center, Pontiac Product Engineering, run by the late John Z. Delorean in the early 60s, Cadillac Product Engineering, and also Buick and Oldsmobile.

Herb Adams was a Pontiac Product Engineering guy who worked in Advanced Design. This was in the era of Super Duty Catalinas with "swiss cheese" frames, 421 Tempest station wagons with 4-speeed automatic transaxles, the GTO, Firebird, TransAm (most of which was Herb's work), etc. Herb left GM and developed quite a following.

Don Cox was a Chevrolet Engineering Center guy. CEC was the Product Engineering Dept. of Chevy. He was internally then externally heavily involved with Chaparral Cars. Jim Hall has said many good things about Don. After Chaparral he moved to Penske where he stayed for quite a while. Again, training and background at GM then elsewhere.

Lee Dykstra was a Cadillac Product Engrg. guy. Cadillac was doing some good engineering stuff in the 60s, kinda fell on their faces later due to Corporate dictates, and has come alive in the past few years. Lee left GM, went to Kar-Kraft and did the 1968 Trans Am Mustang, then left to design a number of very sucessful race cars: 1981 IMSA JLP Porsche 935, 1982 IMSA Jaguar XJR-5, 1985 IMSA GTP Jaguar XJR-7, 1989 IMSA GTO Mazda RX-7 1991 Maxda RX792P GTP, and the ground effects 4WD Toyota Celica Rod Millen drove to an absolute record at Pikes Peak. Generally Lee designed the whole car.

Interestingly, Herb, Don and Lee were within a year or two at GMI. I was fortunate enough to know these three guys as well as some other good guys. All were outstanding engineers, gear heads and very different personalities. Yeah, cream does rise to the top.

There weren't many of the thousands of engineers in GM involved in racing then. There are probably more today, but it's still a tiny percent. You need to be lucky, and good! Good is more important!

Hands on experience in a tech program and/or in a good shop is invaluable, but so is the understanding of how and why things (and the world in general) work. I'm terribly prejudiced, but, IMO, a background in Mechanical Engineering, or maybe physics, is the best preparation one could have in addition to common sense and mechanical aptitude.

The best cam designer I know (or know of) has higher degrees in physics, including particle physics, which is REALLY about "how the world works". He's also a consumate gearhead, a super teacher, and one of the most knowledgeable people on many, many subjects that I've met. Every time we talk I learn something, and he gets me thinking about new ideas by just sugesting a few things. That's cool.

My highly opinionated $.02.

when I was attending there they were the #1 engineering program in the counrty,

Not knocking it, but who told you that?

-brent

Dont remember, but that was what I had heard somewhere, and from quite a few people, and thought I even read it somewhere... :rolleyes:

Correct me if Im wrong, I dont know if it was at all, I was just under that impression.

jon

Good point about the SAE stuff. Since i worked through college I didn't have the time to make the commitment to those activities so i never got too involved. I was also a lil turned off by some of the ambitious gear head know it alls who really didn't know squat, but to be a 'team player' you have to deal with them also. From the lil i do know of the programs at PSU, they were pretty much limited to chasis design and bolt on engine components. In other words your not going to get in detail into porting and hardcore engine stuff unless you go to someplace like SAM. Kettering likely has more involved programs too.

I'd like to go to SAM, i think with my ME degree that could take me somewhere, but i'd be taking quite a paycut to go back to school and the first couple years even. Wouldn't be a bad route to go though if you were never used to a big paycheck. I like my job now anyways so i can't justify moving half way accross the country and taking such big risks.

-brent

The SAE programs are pretty cool.....

The biggest thing I have ever seen with them is MAN SOME OF THESE KIDS NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE THESE THINGS. We are talking about cars with unlimited weight and 600cc bike motors (with restrictors). I was at a autocross standing there watching with a fellow competitor. (we were #1 and #2 in the PAX standings at that race at the time) We looked at each other and said..... "what you think there is a good 5 sec left in that car?" "yeah at least"......

I have seen some cool things in terms of engines in the contest. One team made a mini V8 motor from scratch. That's pretty cool, expensive but cool. If there is enough interest in a program at a school, they would be smart to divide into groups: Chassis, Engine, Driver Development etc....

Plus you also need to check your ego's at the door. The problem with "car guys" is that they all think they know something. It's like dentists and doctors (except for Mr Krause) who think they are car guys because they have money and a BMW, but are far from it.

Bret

Jon.....

As far as learning engines go.... You are in the best age in time for learning about motors. The internet has allowed us to learn this craft so much faster it's silly. Problem is that it's knowing what is correct and what's not is the big key to getting the most out of it.

Guys in the past had to learn from someone else...... Kaase learned from Dyno Don Nicholson. Greg Anderson.... WJ Robert Yates..Waddel Wilson etc..... That to me is usually the best way to get into engine stuff. A interest in it is usually the key to getting to where you want to go.

Bret

I agree, if it werent for this forum, and knowing who to listen to and such, I wouldnt know a fraction of what I do (or at least think I know). All my classmates are amazed at some of the things Ive learned from here, and its funny to see the looks on instructors faces when I completely stump them with a question I formulated from here, and get a silly made up response from them as well.

I know I could learn "ENOUGH" about this field to get along, make money, and have some fun doing it, but anymore knowing just whats needed isnt enough to really succeed. I think a mathematical/engineering knowledge of how an engine works, the materials involved, and all else that goes along with it would make for an over the top engine builder that could build something just a little better than the next guy, and maybe do it for cheaper.

And this isnt speaking strictly of engines either, I LOVE welding, and doing anything with metal, and building chassis would be awesome, and I know there is a huge help from having a ME/physics type background for chassis engineering.

jon

Yeah and so and so's $189 cam ain't nothing special... some guys know that and some guys don't.

Hell wearing off a lobe on a soft cast cam that's a bitch too..... billet cams have enough positives to me that it's crazy NOT to run them.

As for the ME degree...... it helps a ton. I kinda wish I had one.... it doesn't fit me due to a lot of things one of them the idea that I could design parts for a washing machine is one of them.

Getting into doing the cool stuff like motors is a lot harder. The amount of knowledge that you need to actually be a engineer in a race team is staggering..... and you need experience in the field, that's the hard part you can't get anywhere without experience. It's great stuff to work on but like anything it has it's drawbacks.... customer, problem parts etc....

I did it by having my own shop..... most guys go and work for someone like WJ or Kaase, DEI, RCR etc....

Bret


Yea I know what a $189.00 cam is but try to tell these people that are not aware of the difference that the cheap cam is a Pos.

The SAE programs are pretty cool.....

The biggest thing I have ever seen with them is MAN SOME OF THESE KIDS NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE THESE THINGS. We are talking about cars with unlimited weight and 600cc bike motors (with restrictors). I was at a autocross standing there watching with a fellow competitor. (we were #1 and #2 in the PAX standings at that race at the time) We looked at each other and said..... "what you think there is a good 5 sec left in that car?" "yeah at least"......

I have seen some cool things in terms of engines in the contest. One team made a mini V8 motor from scratch. That's pretty cool, expensive but cool. If there is enough interest in a program at a school, they would be smart to divide into groups: Chassis, Engine, Driver Development etc....

Plus you also need to check your ego's at the door. The problem with "car guys" is that they all think they know something. It's like dentists and doctors (except for Mr Krause) who think they are car guys because they have money and a BMW, but are far from it.

Bret

Bret,

Don't get me wrong, they are very cool. Maybe PSU doesn't have one of the better overall programs cause i didn't see any mini v8s? i dunno, like i said i didn't get invovled due to me working and some of the other people that i knew were invovled.

If i can take a moment to give myself a pat on the back, I was willing to check my ego at the door, shut my pie hole, and i have open mind to learn. It was kind of funny in some of the classes you had some know it alls the first couple of classes(kids with 5" exhaust tips on their civics), and then as the class became more involved they all shut up and others with knowledge came out of the woodwork(me who had modified motors and suspension, others who actually built multiple motors). You know the scenario, teacher starts calling on the people who don't even have their hand up but they know they can get a good answer out of, use their work as examples, ect.

Another thing is that the classes aren't focused on performance, they cover things like emmisions??? :confused: and ride comfort??? :confused: What the heck are they?:D


Jon,

http://www.infozee.com/channels/ms/usa/mechanical-engineering-rankings.htm
Your not even on the map bro. Maybe they meant top engineering program in the county? ;)
Seriously though, your grades and work experience are going to matter more than the school untill you get your first job. Then your grades don't matter anymore and its all about your performance.

good luck whatever you do.

-brent

http://www.infozee.com/channels/ms/usa/mechanical-engineering-rankings.htm
Your not even on the map bro. Maybe they meant top engineering program in the county? ;)

UCB be #3.... go baby! :metal:

Sorry, couldn't pass the opportunity to give props to my old alma mater. Ohhhh, did they ever get alot of ol 'game's money. :)

-Mindgame

One of the nice things about the internet is.. you don't have to walk away from a conversation going... "darnit, I wish I had commented on that".

When I read the following I thought it was great but got lost in other stuff before finishing my post.....

You are absolutely correct that stiffness is most critical in a valvetrain. The resistance to buckling of a tube in compression varies in direct proportion with the Young's Modulus (YM) of the material. That is the "elasticity" of the material or the proportionality coefficient between stress(load/area) and strain (deflection). Titanium has a YM of about 50% that of steel, any steel. Aluminum is about 33% of steel. Interestingly, the density of Titanium is about half that of steel and aluminum is about 1/3 that of steel.

So, you would think that you'd need twice as much titanium as steel to accomplish the same stiffness, so there would be no weight savings for a pushrod. Almost, but not quite.

A tube's resistance to buckling also depends more strongly on its wall thickness. As a result, a small increase in wall thickness makes up for a large reduction in YM. If we want to assign a number that reflects a particular tube material's sensitivity to buckling, we need to divide, not the Young's Modulus by the material's density, but rather the square root of the Young's Modulus by the density.

If the YM of steel is approx. 30 (million psi) and it's density is approx .30 (lb/cubic inch)and titanium's YM is approx. 15 and it's density .15, dividing (sqr rt 30) by .3 = 18.26 and (sqr rt 15) by .15 = 25.82 or about 40% stiffer for the titanium tube based on weight.

Been a long time since I've had to think like an engineer. That was very well put Oldstroke. :)

-Mindgame

Been a long time since I've had to think like an engineer. That was very well put Oldstroke. :)

-Mindgame

I blush...but I cribbed most of it from the referenced sources.

One does not have to KNOW everything...one just has to know where to FIND everything. I have lots of sources.