Buy GM or Hyundai?

In the pension thread, I had mentioned that our historically GM-only family had picked up a Hyundai XG300, to serveral peoples dismay. Well, IMHO, how can you buy an Impala or Grand Prix over this.

New XG350 (http://automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2005_new_york/0504_hyundai_azera/)
The interior quality was stellar, with fits and finishes and materials that put the new BMW 3-series to shame.
come equipped with eight air bags, dual front active headrests, and both stability and traction control.
3.8-liter DOHC V-6 engine producing an estimated 265 hp and 257 lb-ft of torque, mated to a five-speed automatic transmission

I'd take that over GM or Ford's current offerings in that segment.

**** gm

If and when Hyundai and Kia start producing cars with dynamics to match their quality, durability, and value

You missed a quote. :p :D

Yeah, I wouldn't ever track an XG. It's comprable to every other car in its segment, though.

The car in question appears to be a stretched 2006 Sonata. I'd say its a huge improvement over the current XG350 and Kia Amanti:lol: - but that isn't saying much. In this class, the new 280hp Toyota Avalon is still the leader.

Yea the Avalon is the most perfect machine on the road today.

From the Detroit free press.

"The Avalon has a lot going for it, but in the final analysis the quality problems drop the big Toyota to barely average among full-size sedans."

"The ceiling-mounted buttons for the front dome lights squeaked, and they were made of what felt like the thinnest, cheapest plastic I can ever recall in a Toyota."

"The dial to adjust the brightness of the instrument panel lights fell out of the dashboard the first time I touched it. The result was a hole the size of your index finger and the certainty of a visit to the service department."

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan24e_20050324.htm

Don't buy GM UMMK, but..but.. Mr.Garison ,now Eric I told you not to speak unless you raise your hand, UMMK. Now don't buy GM, cuz GM is bad UMMK, OK but why? Its just bad... UMMK UMMK! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

Toyota still has high percieved quality with most consumers..

although if they continue diong stuff like that on a regular basis, they may lose it in the future.

Yea the Avalon is the most perfect machine on the road today.

From the Detroit free press.

"The Avalon has a lot going for it, but in the final analysis the quality problems drop the big Toyota to barely average among full-size sedans."

"The ceiling-mounted buttons for the front dome lights squeaked, and they were made of what felt like the thinnest, cheapest plastic I can ever recall in a Toyota."

"The dial to adjust the brightness of the instrument panel lights fell out of the dashboard the first time I touched it. The result was a hole the size of your index finger and the certainty of a visit to the service department."

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan24e_20050324.htm

Ill stick with GM seeing as Hyudai doesnt have high enough quality standards to even have the licence plate on straight.
:p

Father in law has an XG350 and it is a very nice car. A lot of content for the money. The resale value cannot be worse than a similar GM car.

Ill stick with GM seeing as Hyudai doesnt have high enough quality standards to even have the licence plate on straight.
:p

The 2004 Sonata was rated as the most trouble free car made period for 2004. What was that statement again?

Gm.

If we don't buy Hyundai's and Kia's, how will Korea afford to shoot more missles at Alaska... :D
Oh, GM!

If we don't buy Hyundai's and Kia's, how will Korea afford to shoot more missles at Alaska... :D
Oh, GM!

And California and Hawaii :D

Desregard my earlier post, as I was having south park flashbacks. :eek: Let me see, co. whos been around a while, or the co. who just started building cars? :rolleyes: GM ofcourse!

In the pension thread, I had mentioned that our historically GM-only family had picked up a Hyundai XG300, to serveral peoples dismay. Well, IMHO, how can you buy an Impala or Grand Prix over this.

New XG350 (http://automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2005_new_york/0504_hyundai_azera/)

Only sedan I'd take over it is a LS4 Impala SS, or Mazda 6. But thats an awesome car, how much did you pay?

yea.. and looking at those pics, they appear to have better interiors... I've sat in my coworkers Hyundai with full leather interior.. I was actually shocked how nice it was, let alone how inexpensive it was.

and the way Hyundai is going, perhaps they may be able to shake off their cheap import perception...

There's the quote from some GM executive.. that its the Kia's and Hyndai's that really makes GM lose sleep.. Like it or not, they are having success in the entry level market.

Years ago I wouldn't even thought once about a Hyundai.... Now, I have to think twice about it..... and honestly, I was surprised by how nice my coworkers car was.. and those pics of the new cars interiors look nice too.. There's something still off about how they look though.



Desregard my earlier post, as I was having south park flashbacks. :eek: Let me see, co. whos been around a while, or the co. who just started building cars? :rolleyes: GM ofcourse!

Yea the Avalon is the most perfect machine on the road today.

From the Detroit free press.

"The Avalon has a lot going for it, but in the final analysis the quality problems drop the big Toyota to barely average among full-size sedans."

"The ceiling-mounted buttons for the front dome lights squeaked, and they were made of what felt like the thinnest, cheapest plastic I can ever recall in a Toyota."

"The dial to adjust the brightness of the instrument panel lights fell out of the dashboard the first time I touched it. The result was a hole the size of your index finger and the certainty of a visit to the service department."

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan24e_20050324.htm

A Detroit newpaper isn't a good source of unbiased information on a non-UAW assembled, import-badged car.:lol:

although detnews seems to have no problem bashing domestic cars.. lol

A Detroit newpaper isn't a good source of unbiased information on a non-UAW assembled, import-badged car.:lol:

It's as good as anything else that is anti-GM. Name one source that doesn't lean one way or the other? I can't think of any.

looks like a cross between a camry and a vovlo, i'd take it, especially since it comes with warranties and you won't have to deal with dealers that are jerks. :)

I'm a shining star of the Hyundai, i got an elantra w/ 100k mile warenty Jan 2 of 2005, cause my firebird wont smog so i needed something with reliablity... and also i cant aford anything that looks like a car that GM makes

BUY GM!!!!!!! They've been making cars for 100 years.

Hyundia entered the market about 15 years ago. Their cars were complete and utter junk until about 4 years ago. The quality seems improved, but I wouldn't risk it if it were me. And if I plan to drive my car to 200k, a 100k warranty isn't long enough. And their resale value is horrendous.

Another thing to consider. If you ever sit in a Volkswagen, you will see it appears to be a very nice, well assembled car. But there is a huge gap between their percieved and actual quality. People are having all kinds of problems with their Volkswagens. Same thing could be true of a Hynduia. I don't know if it is or not though.

GM hasn't been making the greatest cars for 100 years though.

They even publicly admitted themselves that their past cars weren't totally up to snuff.. "Road to Redemption campaign".. basically, they are working hard to gain back trust.

IMO, I believe GM builds everything to their exacting specs, levels, varience tolarances, etc.. GM just needs to get used to the fact that they have to raise the bar higher than they are used to and operate at that level. Its kinda of a fine line between, "crappy built and assembled parts" and "shoddy specs for the whole system overall" aka beancounter influence. Again, this is my person consumer perception GM. I could be totalyl wrong, but hey, its what I believe and percieve - which in the end is arguably most important.


vs a company like Hyndai.. Eh, I dunno what they do(or actually more accurately, what I percieve), and exactly how they spec and standarize things out. Their latest crop of cars at least appear to be to a good deal though..

---

Like for example, GM uses a 10 cent switch, that feels and acts like a cheap, sloppy switch, with an avg life of 10 years, where it will operate just fine, alibeit in a cheap sloppy way since day one.

vs (insert cheap import brand), uses a 9 cent switch, that feels and acts like a more expensive and "tighter" switch than GM's.. But will it stay like that after 5 years? Or will it get sloppy over time, and break after 5 years? I dunno. Thats the gap in perceptin that make me still uneasy.. Not that their stuff is cheap.. but just don't know how it will hold up over time.

Thats my only reservation about buying a cheap import car like that.. Perhaps in 2015 when alot more of these newer cheap import cars have seen some decent time, we will see.


BUY GM!!!!!!! They've been making cars for 100 years.

Hyundia entered the market about 15 years ago. Their cars were complete and utter junk until about 4 years ago. The quality seems improved, but I wouldn't risk it if it were me. And if I plan to drive my car to 200k, a 100k warranty isn't long enough. And their resale value is horrendous.

Another thing to consider. If you ever sit in a Volkswagen, you will see it appears to be a very nice, well assembled car. But there is a huge gap between their percieved and actual quality. People are having all kinds of problems with their Volkswagens. Same thing could be true of a Hynduia. I don't know if it is or not though.

Was there seriously a thread about the purchase of your mothers vehicle considering she was collection a pension from GM? I love how the author puts their own spin on it. Suggesting its just Hyundai vs GM with no other reasoning given. His mother is a retiree from GM yet chose a Hyundai because absolutely NOTHING MATCHED the Hyundai in price or comparison. Please.

Geeze I thought my stink was just to that thread only. I'm glad I've been busy at work.

I'll say again. Your mother collected a pay check from GM when they laid her off due to no work. The least she could do is support the company through the end, they are at least doing that for her.

Last I'll say about this.

I donno if you guys know this by Hyundai is a big company and they are similar to Mitisibishi as far as getting their hands into ever feild, and the korean auto maker has one of the most efficient factories in the world, they can crank out cars so much faster then any other, their quality has gone up... but a friend of mine was on the development team for the 2004 sonota interior design, him and a crew of like 6-10 other guys i think... but anyhow he quit cause he saw no future in Hyundai and he now works for Honda

I leased a hyundai (accent) 4 years ago because I needed a car, and I wanted it to be the cheapest car on the road. Even with 1700 gm card dollars, I couldn't get a deal nearly as cheap as the accent. After 4 years, I love my little car, it has been rock solid and dependable. Now my lease is almost up, and if I were going to get a cheap sub-compact again, I would certainly choose the accent over the aveo.

http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/?seo=ov_aveo&pl_code=MGMC9ODC14409P460380B457656S0&cp_keyword=892947
http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/photogallery/

or

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/Vehicles/Accent/Main.asp

ckt101: Now my lease is almost up, and if I were going to get a cheap sub-compact again, I would certainly choose the accent over the aveo.Are you sure about that, not me.. :)

i think im not understanding you, he can buy a brand new accent for $7,999 almost half of the aveo... 1,000 off for rebates and 1,000 off for a loyal customer... its a much better deal

and in my opinion it looks better then that Scion wanna be Chevy

i think im not understanding you, he can buy a brand new accent for $7,999 almost half of the aveo... 1,000 off for rebates and 1,000 off for a loyal customer... its a much better deal
Is that the same Accent that was rated absolute worst car by Top Gear?

Yes the Hyundai is a nice looking sedan, but by 2006 we'll also have a brand new Impala...:D

Was there seriously a thread about the purchase of your mothers vehicle considering she was collection a pension from GM? I love how the author puts their own spin on it. Suggesting its just Hyundai vs GM with no other reasoning given. His mother is a retiree from GM yet chose a Hyundai because absolutely NOTHING MATCHED the Hyundai in price or comparison. Please.

Geeze I thought my stink was just to that thread only. I'm glad I've been busy at work.

I'll say again. Your mother collected a pay check from GM when they laid her off due to no work. The least she could do is support the company through the end, they are at least doing that for her.

Last I'll say about this.

:bow: :bow:

People that smart will later be pissed when they lose their pension when GM files Chapter 11. Gotta love America...the only country where no one is responsible for what they help create :D

http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/?seo=ov_aveo&pl_code=MGMC9ODC14409P460380B457656S0&cp_keyword=892947
http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/photogallery/

or

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/Vehicles/Accent/Main.asp

Are you sure about that, not me.. :)

Local dealer offers new Accents for $6995.

I'll say again. Your mother collected a pay check from GM when they laid her off due to no work. The least she could do is support the company through the end, they are at least doing that for her.

Last I'll say about this.
Actually, it was my dad who was an engineer for GM. GM couldn't keep the local plant running so after 10 + years at GM, they sent him on month long business trips from plant to plant because he was one of the few who understood the tooling for the anti-lock brake systems. It was on one of those trips in Detroit that he died. So, he did support the company through the end. For his dedication, my mother gets a whopping $400/mo pension. $400/mo, while better than nothing, isn't alot of money. If GM files chpt 11, she will be more than fine with out it. It's definatly not enough to persuade her to drive a subpar car every day.

Is that the same Accent that was rated absolute worst car by Top Gear?

Yes the Hyundai is a nice looking sedan, but by 2006 we'll also have a brand new Impala...:D


i donno how its rated, but if ur just gonna drive something cheap its probably a good soloution... i drive a hyundai elantra, the step up from trom the accent, and its cool, sporty, and well it drives every day. now certainly its not as beautiful as the firebird and it doesnt growl like a v8 no accelerate like it... but its more economical its power everything... no maintance, ive owned one GM product and had nothing but bad luck with it, (im not unhappy) but i just wonder how a newer model is gonna line up... my next GM will probably be a truck or a solstice

Local dealer offers new Accents for $6995.

I'd rather have a two or three year old Corolla with 30k miles than one of those things for the same money.

i donno how its rated, but if ur just gonna drive something cheap its probably a good soloution... i drive a hyundai elantra, the step up from trom the accent, and its cool, sporty, and well it drives every day. now certainly its not as beautiful as the firebird and it doesnt growl like a v8 no accelerate like it... but its more economical its power everything... no maintance, ive owned one GM product and had nothing but bad luck with it, (im not unhappy) but i just wonder how a newer model is gonna line up... my next GM will probably be a truck or a solstice

Don't judge your opinion of GM reliability on an 11 year old F body, please...

For $12,600 you could get a brand new, baseline Cobalt...which to me is a lot nicer car than an Elantra. Just my opinion.

The XG350 has a 3.5 L not 3.8, rated at only 194 hp, 216 tq.

XG350 Specs (http://www.hyundaiusa.com/Vehicles/XG350/Features_Specs/Vehicle_Details.asp)

The new one gets the 3.8L w/ 265 hp and 257torque

Don't judge your opinion of GM reliability on an 11 year old F body, please...

For $12,600 you could get a brand new, baseline Cobalt...which to me is a lot nicer car than an Elantra. Just my opinion.

the reliablity, is not my concern... its just how they built it... they knew they had a heating problem, and they just said "hey lets put the water at the hottest point first... that'll keep the engine cooler", they put the opti under the water pump, what kinda dumb ass idea is that, it rarely failed on any other engine the opti got put on... (nissan and Mitsubishi)

it was just bad design, the only problems ive had w/ the firebird were heat related...(3 optis in 1 year of driving it, and its still got a water leak, i dont have a heater core) im sure if i could pull it apart something is crystalized and its still running, i love my car dont get me wrong... but for a beater car i dont trust GM... they put their pride into trucks and sports cars not economy cars.

That's still a silly statement to make, period. In 1994 the car was in its second year, and while we know NOW that opti was an asinine idea, back then it wasn't. GM didn't do it specifically because "hey, we want to piss of our customers for the next 10 years."

For a beater, I wouldn't NOT trust GM. I've owned a '95 Grand Am that had 121k on it when sold and ran like brand new, a '98 Grand Am with 100k on it that was the same, and a '94 GP with 174k when I sold it 2 years ago that could average over 25 MPG when cruising at 80. I dare say a Cobalt is AT LEAST the equivalent in terms of reliability as anything Hyundai is putting out...that little car is going to be a hit.

Of course, with BIAS such as yours, with all due respect, some people simply won't give it a chance. No offense, but basing your opinions on GM's reliability or "how they built" a car off your opinion of a 1994 Firebird is pretty weak.

I'd rather have a two or three year old Corolla with 30k miles than one of those things for the same money.

I drove one for 15K miles with zero problems before selling it to move up here. I would buy another one in a minute.

That's still a silly statement to make, period. In 1994 the car was in its second year, and while we know NOW that opti was an asinine idea, back then it wasn't. GM didn't do it specifically because "hey, we want to piss of our customers for the next 10 years."

For a beater, I wouldn't NOT trust GM. I've owned a '95 Grand Am that had 121k on it when sold and ran like brand new, a '98 Grand Am with 100k on it that was the same, and a '94 GP with 174k when I sold it 2 years ago that could average over 25 MPG when cruising at 80. I dare say a Cobalt is AT LEAST the equivalent in terms of reliability as anything Hyundai is putting out...that little car is going to be a hit.

Of course, with BIAS such as yours, with all due respect, some people simply won't give it a chance. No offense, but basing your opinions on GM's reliability or "how they built" a car off your opinion of a 1994 Firebird is pretty weak.

you have high standards for a beater... my math teacher calls his new H2 a beater... i call something that i plan to run into the ground a beater, although my math teacher also intends to off road w/ his H2, thats not exactly the same ground that I'm refering... if Money was no issue I'd buy a GM for a beater but lets face it... GM is over priced

The only reason my parents bought a F350 over a 3500 Silverado was 10,000k
got a crewcab F350 v10 for 29k and my dad said Chevy was 10grand off of that figure.

look at the GTO, its massivly overpriced compared to its competetor Mustang, i remember when i first went to go look at cars i could get a stripped v6 mustang for 11k in 2003, i spent nearly 8k on the firebird and its much faster...

Look at the Cobra vs Corvette

A Grand Am is an expensive car for a college student, expecally one who already has another car. and that is in not nearly in the same class as a elantra... my buddy's Grand Am beat my firebird off the line and up to about 60, but then he got his ass handed to him that was a sad day for the f-body... but

dont get me wrong GM is where i prefer to shop i love how they used to build V8's for everyone in the mid 90's with the LT1, it seems they might be getting back to that but GM's gotta fix a few things...

if GM tried half as hard as other leading companys in effort to make their customers happy they would dominate the market like they always have.

this is a bad topic for me cause i like GM more than anyone else and i donno who got me to bad mouth them but... i guess its all my years of dismal aproval from my dad, hes hated GM since he had a car in the 60's... and stupid reports like Consumer reports... Did you know the vibe and the Toyota matrix are the same, and did you know in some reports the Vibe did worse on ratings... how does that work out? drivers satisfaction should be the same for both cars, but apparently its not

That includes a nice package, but I think I'm sold on buying domestics for a long time.

NewbieWar,

I don't see where driving Grand Ams for beaters were a whole lot more expensive than your Elantra when purchased used. I don't see where a new Cobalt costs more than a new Elantra. So your point that GM is overpriced is to have BIAS.

Further, I'm glad you caught onto Consumer Reports. Indeed, Matrixs are rated higher than Vibes. Why? BIAS. If it has a domestic nameplate on it, CR hates it. Always has, always will. The fact the 2 cars are built in the same plant, by the same workers, is irrelevant.

Your posts prove to me the simple BIAS of them...no flames meant, but its clear to me.

ok to be honnest the only reason i got my elantra was it was the cheapest car w/ power windows, power doors and keyless entry.

the cobalt wasnt avalible yet and im unsure if i would have puchased it if it was, although it looks quite nice,

but the cobalt after rebates w/ the windows option is 13,076
where as the hyundai after rebates is now only 10,551, less then i paid, i paid about 11,750 i think, but the waranty just takes the cake.

if I'm 19, I just bought a new car because I can't maintain the one I have, obviously money is an issue, and if for the next 100,000 miles I can be gauranteed it will run, thats almost 3 times longer then 36,000

but to be honnest, i shoulda bought another 95 camaro or something :cry: i miss driving the lt1 so bad... id like to test drive a cobalt but i dought it will exhilerate me quite like my firebird did

now regaurding the Grand Am it looks to be discontinued but from what I can tell I can still get a new Coupe for a little over 19,000... but is it worth that much extra? to pay 8,000 more dollars? im not sure and my pocket book would prefer an LS1 SS or something at that price

Okay, it does not cost 11K to keep your 1994 Firebird on the road. You can get a brand new 12 bolt rear end, rebuild the tranny, and get a rebuilt stroker LT1 with a nasty cam for under 11k. And you'll whip about everything on the road.

If reliability is your primary concern, buying an 11 year old used car with 100,000 miles on it wasn't a smart idea if you wanted something as trouble free as a new car.(especially something like the Formula, which could have had the p!ss beaten out of it by the previous owners)

As far as reliability:
I have an '88 Suburban with 191K miles that hasn't had any major problems, The only thing I've replaced on it in the last 7 years is the fuel pump, it was a factory GM part. It runs and drives like new, and I run the dog-p!$$ out of it too, but I maintain it with tune up's, filters and oil changes.
I also have the '90 IROC, with 187K miles(I love driving it..) and in the last 6 years I have only HAD to replace the pinion NUT(backed off) and the CAT-convertor, seems I burned up the factory piece with modds, and it gave me a chance to go duals. And it is run the same as above...these Chevy's take a lot of punishment and beg for more!
I bought the '95 Park Ave SC a couple of years ago when the wife wanted a new car. Our budget (while I was laid off) wouldn't allow more than $10K. I could've opt'd for a bottom of the line Hyundai, which she looked at. But after over 2 months of looking we found the Top-of-the-Line Buick ULTRA with power everything,: 69K miles(MINT!), supercharged 3800, factory self-adjusting valved gas shocks/struts, factory alarm, keyless entry, factory am/fm/cd, leather, heated outside mirrors, heated seats, 4-W ABS/traction control, rear load leveler air integral air bag suspension, 21mpg city/26mpg hw, 225hp+, thermostat heat controls, separate heat/air controls for driver/pass....on...on...on...for $8100 out the door!(2 years one repair, the harmonic balancer..I cracked the rubber.. :D lead foot..)
I'd rather buy a High-End used GM vehicle than a NEW low end ANYTHING, anyday!
(Oh, I just bought an '86 Red T-Top TA this year with 131K miles, it needs a tune up, other than that it is in good shape!)

So in the end NewbieWar, you do admit it isn't a GM thing, its a price thing. So be it. I appreciate the fact you're 19, you're a college student, and that money is tight. But please, do not tell me you bought the Hyundai because GM is overpriced or because they aren't as reliable. Because that would be considered bias.

Buying a Hyundai because its cheaper? Well, that's indeed true. But keep in mind, $11,500 versus $13,600 over 5 years is barely $40/month. For 9 dollars a week (remember, there's 4.33 weeks in a month!!!), I'll keep my money in America AND have a nicer overall car. When you break it down that way, its hard to argue with.

BTW, Cobalt has a 5/60 warranty for powertrain, not 3/36. To each their own, but its a shame that you have to sift through unfounded claims to find out why someone really bought an import over a GM. I can't argue with price...I just wish that for $40 more a month more people were willing to keep their money in the U.S. for a BETTER car.

I donno what has overcome me I love GM, And I believe that one of you posters are right if not many, my car's problems were based on not having preventative maintance done to it... sure it was a dumb idea to buy the V8 and it was an impulse buy... i never even test drove it lol, I got screwed w/ the intrest rate then I never really fixed it, it doesnt smog because of what i've done to it (damaged header bolts so exhuast leak) and overheating... had my hoses all been replaced around 90k miles when GM says they should be, I wouldnt have blown out my opti twice at 95k and 102k due to leaking hoses, and if i had money to fill my tank i wouldnt have damaged my fuel pump altho it is still running, and ive had the engine pinned at 260F for several miles twice, i think GM can really make an engine that is bullet proof.

The brake Calliper that broke off, i should have looked at the caliper after I replaced the brake pads and realized one bolt had managed to come out (my Frivolousness to not have done a good job) the brake then Caliper was ripped off the axle and attached extremely well to the disk (very cool to see) while the brake fluid was draining out :( that was a near $400 bill for a new caliper and install and new brake lines and emergancy brake.

the tranny, my fault again i had the tranny fluid exchanged at Jiffy Lube, and sure enough the next day im leaking out of my spedo sensor, now after several months ive lost near 2 quarts and im sure this is one reason why it is slipping now...

The Cat, well thats simple it just needed a tune for a long time before I did it, and well 6 months of running one 6 cylinders is enough crap to clog the cat.... my fault

The radiator cracking... probably just age...

But after this analysis I'm completely wrong to say that GM is unreliable and I guess 19 years of my dads subscription to consumer reports got to my head for a minute. And on that note the matrix and Vibe thing just shows that people who drive domestic cars have higher standerds and wouldnt be seen in the imports and would have much more complaints if they were forced to drive imports. The reports Consumer reports judges their ratings by are bais not exactly Consumer Reports themselves, but yes they do not show true ratings...

And I was somewhat subject to buy an import because I live under my dads roof still and buying GM didnt thrill him the first time, and would probably have ended up w/ a rent payment which i couldnt afford...
so GM rules but can be overpriced...

So in the end NewbieWar, you do admit it isn't a GM thing, its a price thing. So be it. I appreciate the fact you're 19, you're a college student, and that money is tight. But please, do not tell me you bought the Hyundai because GM is overpriced or because they aren't as reliable. Because that would be considered bias.

Buying a Hyundai because its cheaper? Well, that's indeed true. But keep in mind, $11,500 versus $13,600 over 5 years is barely $40/month. For 9 dollars a week (remember, there's 4.33 weeks in a month!!!), I'll keep my money in America AND have a nicer overall car. When you break it down that way, its hard to argue with.

BTW, Cobalt has a 5/60 warranty for powertrain, not 3/36. To each their own, but its a shame that you have to sift through unfounded claims to find out why someone really bought an import over a GM. I can't argue with price...I just wish that for $40 more a month more people were willing to keep their money in the U.S. for a BETTER car.

I leased my Hyundai because it was cheaper. As I said before, even with 1700 GM card dollars, I could not get a lease deal nearly as good as the hyundai accent. Also, at that time, the hyundai lease required no freight/destination, no security deposit, and zero dollars down. Basically I walked in, gave them their 'administration fee' :rolleyes: , and drove out with the cheapest thing on the road. Over at GM, the best they had at the time was a cavalier. Even with my card earnings, I would have to fork over 1500 bucks up front, and the lease payments would still have been higher. (Remember, I'm in Canada, prices will be different here than in the U.S.).
Also, if all else was equal, I'd rather have the 40 bucks per month in my wallet.

you have high standards for a beater... my math teacher calls his new H2 a beater... i call something that i plan to run into the ground a beater, although my math teacher also intends to off road w/ his H2, thats not exactly the same ground that I'm refering... if Money was no issue I'd buy a GM for a beater but lets face it... GM is over priced

The only reason my parents bought a F350 over a 3500 Silverado was 10,000k
got a crewcab F350 v10 for 29k and my dad said Chevy was 10grand off of that figure.

look at the GTO, its massivly overpriced compared to its competetor Mustang, i remember when i first went to go look at cars i could get a stripped v6 mustang for 11k in 2003, i spent nearly 8k on the firebird and its much faster...

Look at the Cobra vs Corvette

A Grand Am is an expensive car for a college student, expecally one who already has another car. and that is in not nearly in the same class as a elantra... my buddy's Grand Am beat my firebird off the line and up to about 60, but then he got his ass handed to him that was a sad day for the f-body... but

dont get me wrong GM is where i prefer to shop i love how they used to build V8's for everyone in the mid 90's with the LT1, it seems they might be getting back to that but GM's gotta fix a few things...

if GM tried half as hard as other leading companys in effort to make their customers happy they would dominate the market like they always have.

this is a bad topic for me cause i like GM more than anyone else and i donno who got me to bad mouth them but... i guess its all my years of dismal aproval from my dad, hes hated GM since he had a car in the 60's... and stupid reports like Consumer reports... Did you know the vibe and the Toyota matrix are the same, and did you know in some reports the Vibe did worse on ratings... how does that work out? drivers satisfaction should be the same for both cars, but apparently its not

I really like the way you mismatch vehicles so that GM comes out more expensive.


A GTO is NOT the same as a Mustang. Please drive both. The Mustang isn't even the intended target of the GTO.

The Cobra is definitely no Corvette. That's pretty obvious.

And, regarding that truck they purchased, that price they got it for would have been an ad price, so the dealer lost thousands on it. I know, I was selling all of the big three up until last month. Oh yeah, and the V10 isn't even as good as the Chevy 6.0 engine, not to mention the 8.1.

It's easy to make a comparison sway a certain way, but that's hardly constructive.

:bow: :bow:

People that smart will later be pissed when they lose their pension when GM files Chapter 11. Gotta love America...the only country where no one is responsible for what they help create :D
Ain't it just grand! :mad:

well i suppose maybe my dad didnt do all his homework, and just got a ford cause he had a ford last time... i just checked and both the crewcab F350 and 3500 4x2 v10 vs v8:8.1 are 29,000 vs 29,500 respectively... so i guess maybe he didnt do his homework, but he said he woulda rather have the Chevy so maybe they are better with rebates now keep in mind he got a 2003

not sale prices but CarsDirect price

The GTO is compared to the mustang quite often and in most magazines i read the mustang loses in everything tho

and the Cobra is destined to compete with the corvette although it never quite gets up the balls to step up to the plate

they are rivals and the vette always wins,

I was trying to compare Apples with Apples, on a subject most people would know in an f-body forum... but i think we ventured off of topic and im not exactly sure what the topic was and I know that this was completely my fault... i was just trying to back up a guy when saying that GM is more expensive then an accent and look how much this exploded wow :eek:

Also, if all else was equal, I'd rather have the 40 bucks per month in my wallet.

With all due respect, that's a very, very sad statement IMO. I'll pay more to drive an American product EVERY time, especially if its a measily $40/month. Especially if the car is BETTER, not just equal.

I'm reminded of the bumper stickers I used to see that said "Buy American: The Job You Save Could Be Your Own."

I need to find one of those...the lack of loyalty on an enthusiast website surrounding an AMERICAN car is getting really, really pathetic...

With all due respect, that's a very, very sad statement IMO. I'll pay more to drive an American product EVERY time, especially if its a measily $40/month. Especially if the car is BETTER, not just equal.

I'm reminded of the bumper stickers I used to see that said "Buy American: The Job You Save Could Be Your Own."

I need to find one of those...the lack of loyalty on an enthusiast website surrounding an AMERICAN car is getting really, really pathetic...

AMEN!!!

With all due respect, that's a very, very sad statement IMO. I'll pay more to drive an American product EVERY time, especially if its a measily $40/month. Especially if the car is BETTER, not just equal.

I'm reminded of the bumper stickers I used to see that said "Buy American: The Job You Save Could Be Your Own."

I need to find one of those...the lack of loyalty on an enthusiast website surrounding an AMERICAN car is getting really, really pathetic...

First of all, I'm Canadian, not American. So spending money to prop up American companies is not a high priority of mine. Would I feel differently if we were talking about some Canadian company? Maybe, maybe not.
Second, $40 dollars a month is almost $500 a year. If you want to spend $500 a year out of loyalty, that is your choice. As for me, I will repeat, 'IF ALL ELSE WAS EQUAL', I'd rather keep the 500 bucks in my wallet.

NewbieWar,

I don't see where driving Grand Ams for beaters were a whole lot more expensive than your Elantra when purchased used. I don't see where a new Cobalt costs more than a new Elantra. So your point that GM is overpriced is to have BIAS.

Further, I'm glad you caught onto Consumer Reports. Indeed, Matrixs are rated higher than Vibes. Why? BIAS. If it has a domestic nameplate on it, CR hates it. Always has, always will. The fact the 2 cars are built in the same plant, by the same workers, is irrelevant.

Your posts prove to me the simple BIAS of them...no flames meant, but its clear to me.
I have been screamin' about this bias a long time. Back when Lutz was still at DCx, when the viper was comin' out I can remember bitchin' about it. Needless to say its been burning my ass for along time. And then there are the butchered used F-bodies ppl buy and go ... Oh this thing sucks, GM Sucks! Blah Blah Blah :cry: I seemed to have run out of TP anyone have any consumer reports or, R&T, C&D . Did I miss any?

First of all, I'm Canadian, not American. So spending money to prop up American companies is not a high priority of mine. Would I feel differently if we were talking about some Canadian company? Maybe, maybe not.
Second, $40 dollars a month is almost $500 a year. If you want to spend $500 a year out of loyalty, that is your choice. As for me, I will repeat, 'IF ALL ELSE WAS EQUAL', I'd rather keep the 500 bucks in my wallet.

Well god bless Canada. Then using your own logic against you, how many GM cars are built in Canada? OK, now how many Hyundais are made in Canada? :D

Walked into that one, now didn't ya??? ;)

Well god bless Canada. Then using your own logic against you, how many GM cars are built in Canada? OK, now how many Hyundais are made in Canada? :D

Walked into that one, now didn't ya??? ;)

LMAO :lol:

well, presonally its kinda bad to just look at one thing, i like to know what options i have... I like to know how companys hold their own from my own experiance, not consumer Reports
Ive driven in toyotas all my life and to be honnest i cant stand them, I hardly fit my head rubs on the ceiling everything falls off when u touch it, my camery none of the switches are straight they all hang to one side or the other...
fords my parents are on their second F350 (1989 and 2003), dont let me get started they make alright stuff they are just so bland and not up to par. although the old one took nearly 25k lbs across the country round trip twice and broke down twice EFI and radiator crack. The second one has now a heavier alluminum trailer and has gone half way accross the country no problem will be going to virginia this sumer so we will see...The 1989 was fun to drive old 460 w/ dual rear wheels, i could take awesome highspeed turns without a worry... havent ridden or driven the new one but its only single rear wheels
dodge, their reliablity sucks at work we have a Ram3500 cumins 1999 Duelly and that thing has had like 7 sets of brakes so far a new transmission at 60k and that cummins is hurting so bad (dont get me wrong i know cummins rocks all other desiels) and we are only at about 62k miles
Firebird, best thing in the world, nice ride (now w/ eibash springs & blitstin shocks) although it drags on ground sometimes, those hp are really handy in merging passing and just plain getting off the line, going up on ramps, and of course mild racing.
Hyundai, very bland although i dont have much to say either way about it, i like it for a car, it gets decent gas mileage and seems like Hyundai is really concerned about how i feel about their car. (that feels good)
but so far the cars i'd buy are GM and Hyundai... maybe a ford maybe a dodge, Dodge i'd choose first, and many others havent been tested so i donno

but GM's money doesnt stay in USA anyway, it goes to Mexico or Canida which isnt terrible but... who knows

But see, that's the thing...the $$ DOES come back to the US in the form of profits. I don't care where the foreign car is made, here or otherwise. The ultimate profit ends up with a foreign entity. At least if you buy GM, its more "American" in terms of who and how it supports the economy.

I used to be die hard GM, but even Fords catch my eye these days. As long as its American...

But see, that's the thing...the $$ DOES come back to the US in the form of profits. I don't care where the foreign car is made, here or otherwise. The ultimate profit ends up with a foreign entity. At least if you buy GM, its more "American" in terms of who and how it supports the economy.

I used to be die hard GM, but even Fords catch my eye these days. As long as its American...

Yea Dodge catches my eye from time to time, ford... admitingly a time or two, but GM usually is better or has a better look for one of their brands...

so i donno GM is probably the only american car i will buy

The AVEO has a 5-Star crash rating, VERY IMPORTANT in a sub-compact....you would'nt want to be buried in a small car... ;)

Well god bless Canada. Then using your own logic against you, how many GM cars are built in Canada? OK, now how many Hyundais are made in Canada? :D

Walked into that one, now didn't ya??? ;)

I don't see how I walked into anything. You must understand that alot of Japanese brand cars are made in the U.S. by American auto workers, and yet you have bought an American car built in Canada.
When I go to buy a car, I don't think about how many of these cars are built in Canada, I think about getting top value for my dollar. It's the same when I buy a tv, a pair of shoes, or a tennis racket. I have no idea where my Accent was built, and I don't care.

The AVEO has a 5-Star crash rating, VERY IMPORTANT in a sub-compact....you would'nt want to be buried in a small car... ;)

just caust its got 5 stars doesnt mean anything...

it just means the car was tested and passed in the 5 different tests, it doesnt mean the Manicin wasnt hurt or brusied

its like someone who got a PHD, they could have passed their schooling with a 69.9% but they still have their degree...

and isnt the Aveo made by Scion anyway?

I think about getting top value for my dollar. It's the same when I buy a tv, a pair of shoes, or a tennis racket. I have no idea where my Accent was built, and I don't care.
This is what has ruined america, although i follow the same priciple, the more money everyone spends rather then hords, makes everyone that much richer... The ecconomy goes down because people dont wanna spend, if people like the Waltons, Mr Gates, etc. would spend their money on more employees or lavish lifestyles, we would all be better off... but everyone has been tought "its not how much you make, its how much you save" and because of that pricipal i will recieve a great plenty of assets as my parents pass... but spending is good, hording is bad... Walmart is terrible for society, it takes the money from the poor and gives to the rich its good to support privatly owned buisness, they will spend every penny you give them, unlike the Waltons they cannot possibly spend all that money.

Ohh well I ventured subjects vented and this topic will soon be closed lol but... sorry for the vent, and im aware im a hipocryte

This is what has ruined america

This will be my last post in this thread, because we are getting way off-topic, and this discussion has lost all relevance towards 5th gens or future cars.
First of all, I take offense to you telling me that attitudes like mine have 'ruined america'.
Second and last, America doesn't seem so ruined to me. You live a better standard of living than 99% of human beings who ever walked the surface of the earth, and still you whine.

my appologies, and how do i live a better life? how isnt America ruined?

the fact im 19 and have 2 cars? the fact i live in a multi million dollar comunity filled w/ celebretys? the fact my parents have earned everything to do nothing? The fact I live on 2.5 Acres w/ 11 horses 2 dogs a snake and a 6k sqft home w/ 6 cars in the driveway? Why do I whine, When does a person fully get satisified? Why does GM or Hyundai even keep making cars? the owners are overly wealthy and are unconcerned about their buisness success? America doesnt seem ruined to you? look at us we are the laughing stock of the world, we attack other countrys with money we dont have while still in Trillions of dollars in debt, we have the laziest society in the world, we are facing a near 60% society obesety. while the whole country is sue happy and making life less and less "politically correct"...

I purchased an Elantra why? because i am cheap and i couldnt be financed for much more, because it was an impulse buy. Why did i buy a Firebird? Because of a buddies recomendation on the LT1, aslo an impulse buy I didnt even test drive it.

I was simply trying to defend you, and I apologize for venting w/ your quote

So in the end NewbieWar, you do admit it isn't a GM thing, its a price thing. So be it. I appreciate the fact you're 19, you're a college student, and that money is tight. But please, do not tell me you bought the Hyundai because GM is overpriced or because they aren't as reliable. Because that would be considered bias.

Buying a Hyundai because its cheaper? Well, that's indeed true. But keep in mind, $11,500 versus $13,600 over 5 years is barely $40/month. For 9 dollars a week (remember, there's 4.33 weeks in a month!!!), I'll keep my money in America AND have a nicer overall car. When you break it down that way, its hard to argue with.

BTW, Cobalt has a 5/60 warranty for powertrain, not 3/36. To each their own, but its a shame that you have to sift through unfounded claims to find out why someone really bought an import over a GM. I can't argue with price...I just wish that for $40 more a month more people were willing to keep their money in the U.S. for a BETTER car.Right on ! :bow: These last F-bodies are extremely reliable. PPl will get one used that is beat to hell and say its not reliable. What a load of crap. :rolleyes: Cars are just machines, they need preventive maint. if you don't do it, they will break down. There is also a reason why GM ppl insist on GM parts whenever possible. You get what you pay for. Even my 68 Camaro, I had it for 15 yrs or so and most in my family said don't get that get a (insert your fav S***box) hotrods aren't reliable. The only time that car ever broke down was when I couldn't afford to keep up with reg. maint.. I didn't say :cry: Chevy's suck. I recognized that it wasn't the cars fault it was mine. My 94Z I got at about 78,000 miles or so at about 88,000 it was time for an opti. Now I knew it wasn't taken care of as good as our Patriot Red one( :cry: totalled :cry: ) was but I needed a replacement so I bought it. Once I got the waterpump off I noticed a cut in it at the bottom near the balancer. It seems that the butcher who had it before me lost one of the balancer bolts, and replaced it with one a little longer :rolleyes: , which had cut a groove in the opti allowing water to get in it. It was so rusted you could barely turn it when I finally got it off, its a wonder the car ran at all. Do I curse GM for putting the opti? No, because I know it wasn't their fault, an idiot bought their car, and butchered it up, + no more timing lights(PITA) Sweet! :bow: Moral> Don't buy a butchered car then blame GM. Anyone who didn't buy a fthgen because of X,Y, or Z report you mist out they are very reliable LT1 or LS1 take your pick. And for those missing out on GTO's for similar "reviews" from, so blatantly BIASed sources>fools! :alert: :p

Right on ! :bow: These last F-bodies are extremely reliable. PPl will get one used that is beat to hell and say its not reliable. What a load of crap. :rolleyes: Cars are just machines, they need preventive maint. if you don't do it, they will break down. There is also a reason why GM ppl insist on GM parts whenever possible. You get what you pay for. Even my 68 Camaro, I had it for 15 yrs or so and most in my family said don't get that get a (insert your fav S***box) hotrods aren't reliable. The only time that car ever broke down was when I couldn't afford to keep up with reg. maint.. I didn't say :cry: Chevy's suck. I recognized that it wasn't the cars fault it was mine. My 94Z I got at about 78,000 miles or so at about 88,000 it was time for an opti. Now I knew it wasn't taken care of as good as our Patriot Red one( :cry: totalled :cry: ) was but I needed a replacement so I bought it. Once I got the waterpump off I noticed a cut in it at the bottom near the balancer. It seems that the butcher who had it before me lost one of the balancer bolts, and replaced it with one a little longer :rolleyes: , which had cut a groove in the opti allowing water to get in it. It was so rusted you could barely turn it when I finally got it off, its a wonder the car ran at all. Do I curse GM for putting the opti? No, because I know it wasn't their fault, an idiot bought their car, and butchered it up, + no more timing lights(PITA) Sweet! :bow: Moral> Don't buy a butchered car then blame GM. Anyone who didn't buy a fthgen because of X,Y, or Z report you mist out they are very reliable LT1 or LS1 take your pick. And for those missing out on GTO's for similar "reviews" from, so blatantly BIASed sources>fools! :alert: :p

very well put, people look at my frustration w/ my car and they blame GM, they dont blame me (thankfully for me) although almost all my problems were my fault, it wont smog because of me... and i had to buy another car because of me because i couldnt redily fix my own mistakes

we have the laziest society in the world, we are facing a near 60% society obesety. while the whole country is sue happy and making life less and less "politically correct"... :confused: Look bro, society's problems are WAY MORE COMPLEX than "We're all lazy and fat" :rolleyes:

If you want to look into the Obesity problem, do some searching into "Genetically Modified Foods", or the other"GM" for short. The greedy large food manufacturers are ****ing our food up so badly we hardly get enough nutrition to keep us from getting a whole host of diseases and conditions brought on by "malnutrition". Requiring the average person to be driven to consume more of it to get any energy to drive their system to be able to remain active.....It's sooooo much deeper than this but maybe this will give you a direction for your disgust...try the FDA...they deserve it! :)

heh way off subject but i donno that this makes me feel any better about obese people, i was most likely to be obese in my school (stupid rating but ok) due to a calorie count in high school, and after counting several times and not recording everything I ate, my daily intake was somewhere around 8,000 calories... (good metabolizm) but i realized i needed to watch what I eat, i still indulge every now and then but i've got a little better figure now, 185 for a 5'11'' guy isnt half bad i used to be 160 but i've gained a considerable amount of muscle... so i dont pitty to many people who over eat, because i can over eat too... but way off subject... and my apologize

but i just tried to give the skinny a little bit on america, and didnt really try to get into detail but i didnt know all that.

I don't see how I walked into anything. You must understand that alot of Japanese brand cars are made in the U.S. by American auto workers, and yet you have bought an American car built in Canada.
When I go to buy a car, I don't think about how many of these cars are built in Canada, I think about getting top value for my dollar. It's the same when I buy a tv, a pair of shoes, or a tennis racket. I have no idea where my Accent was built, and I don't care.

And if you actually bothered to read any of what I wrote, like I said, a foreign car built here keeps less $$ in the US than a US car built in Canada. Please, read...

Good to know you don't give a crap where your car is built...but I do. I wish more people did.

And if you actually bothered to read any of what I wrote, like I said, a foreign car built here keeps less $$ in the US than a US car built in Canada. Please, read...

Good to know you don't give a crap where your car is built...but I do. I wish more people did.

my dad does, he makes sure its built in Japan...

my buddys Camaro was built in Japan... its got funny blinkers right next to the Z2/8 sign on the sides to conform to Japans rules... after 20,000 miles it was shipped here and they bought it.... weird huh?

my dad does, he makes sure its built in Japan...

my buddys Camaro was built in Japan... its got funny blinkers right next to the Z2/8 sign on the sides to conform to Japans rules... after 20,000 miles it was shipped here and they bought it.... weird huh?

I don't think there was and F-body plant in Japan. I'm sure it was still produced at the St. Theresa (sp?) plant, and exported.

I believe Candian Camaro's are like that too.. I've seen those weird blinkers on other exported Camaro's.

With all due respect, that's a very, very sad statement IMO. I'll pay more to drive an American product EVERY time, especially if its a measily $40/month. Especially if the car is BETTER, not just equal.

I realize I'm coming into this thread pretty late but I thought I'd point something out that may be missed here...$40/month may not seem like very much money and "spending" that money on a new car can be rationalized in any number of ways, patriotism works as well as anything else in that case.

However, aside from how financially unwise it is to finance something that is going down in value like a rock (i.e. a new car or truck), it isn't just the $40/month that should be considered...it's what else that $40/month could be going to.

That same $40/month invested in a good growth stock mutual fund (earning the historic average rate of return for that kind of investment) from age 20 to age 65 would return over $866,000 - so, you really ARE spending more. :)

Now, it's your money and you can do with it whatever you wish, but I think it's unfair to suggest that the $40/month isn't a significant enough issue on which to decide what to purchase.

That's called "opportunity cost" :D

$40 month doesn't seem like a lot but that's almost $500 a year and over the life of a 5 year car note that's $2500, which is nothing to sneeze at.

$40 month doesn't seem like a lot but that's almost $500 a year and over the life of a 5 year car note that's $2500, which is nothing to sneeze at.But, what if that $40/month equals $2500 more "trade in" value, or equity, at the end of a five year note? Also nothing to sneeze at, true?
It's an investment, a bad one at best, true, but you should consider Resale value too...maybe not much difference in this case, I don't know. But the higher the amount invested ( better models) the more significant it could be. There's always more ways to see things...

But, what if that $40/month equals $2500 more "trade in" value, or equity, at the end of a five year note? Also nothing to sneeze at, true?
It's an investment, a bad one at best, true, but you should consider Resale value too...maybe not much difference in this case, I don't know. But the higher the amount invested ( better models) the more significant it could be. There's always more ways to see things...

THIS IS TRUE, my car now is worth about half of what I paid for it, I kbb-ed it and its worth about 8,000$ when its only got 2000 miles on it and it'll be 3 months old tomarrow

I realize I'm coming into this thread pretty late but I thought I'd point something out that may be missed here...$40/month may not seem like very much money and "spending" that money on a new car can be rationalized in any number of ways, patriotism works as well as anything else in that case.

However, aside from how financially unwise it is to finance something that is going down in value like a rock (i.e. a new car or truck), it isn't just the $40/month that should be considered...it's what else that $40/month could be going to.

That same $40/month invested in a good growth stock mutual fund (earning the historic average rate of return for that kind of investment) from age 20 to age 65 would return over $866,000 - so, you really ARE spending more. :)

Now, it's your money and you can do with it whatever you wish, but I think it's unfair to suggest that the $40/month isn't a significant enough issue on which to decide what to purchase.

Robert, we agree on this one :D The problem is, a 19 year old kid isn't going to put the $$ in a mutual fund...he's going to spend it at Arbys :D Accurate portrayal nonetheless, and yes we economists would be looking at the opportunity cost. My point was that one less McDonald's run a week buys a Cobalt over an Elantra :D

But, what if that $40/month equals $2500 more "trade in" value, or equity, at the end of a five year note? Also nothing to sneeze at, true?
It's an investment, a bad one at best, true, but you should consider Resale value too...maybe not much difference in this case, I don't know. But the higher the amount invested ( better models) the more significant it could be. There's always more ways to see things...

There are always more ways to see things but my way is the only right way. :D

Even assuming the GM vehicle would actually be worth the $2,500 more (and that is a very unproven assumption at this point), resale value is only really a factor if the cash out of pocket is essentially the same for whatever vehicle is purchased.

Granted, if you are going to spend a total of $20K but one vehicle will be worth $8K and the other $10.5K at the end of five years, then it would make sense to buy the one that will be worth $10.5K but if you have to spend $2,500 more to have a car worth $2,500 more at the end of five years, you have at best broken even. Of course, my whole point with my prior post was that the true cost of that extra $40/month goes far beyond the mere $40 * 60 month calculation.

Bottom line is, if you are simply trying to buy transportation, the only sound decision is to buy the least expensive vehicle you can find that will do the job (but that is never a "new" vehicle).

Although my income is dependent on people buying new cars and I'm glad that they do, I also know that buying a brand new car (no matter who makes it) can never be justified financially...we can find 10 ways from Sunday to make ourselves believe the buying decision is justified but it's only rationalization; the numbers will never support the decision to buy new.

Except for unusual circumstances (and usually then only for very exotic and/or one-of-a-kind cars), all cars depreciate extremely quickly, and the more expensive, the bigger the value lost.

Cars are not a "bad investment", they are a horrible investment. :)

Robert, we agree on this one :D The problem is, a 19 year old kid isn't going to put the $$ in a mutual fund...he's going to spend it at Arbys :D Accurate portrayal nonetheless, and yes we economists would be looking at the opportunity cost. My point was that one less McDonald's run a week buys a Cobalt over an Elantra :D

I think a person would have to spending quite a lot of money at McDonalds to make up the difference :). But you are right, most 19 year olds won't invest the money but I think the only reason most 19 year old kids won't put the $40 in a mutual fund is because no one bothers to teach them what the $40 actually means to them.

Here is another example I like to use to illustrate, if a teenager who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day put the same amount of money into a mutual fund from age 15 to age 65, he would have somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.6Million dollars to retire on...so I hope all of you who smoke REALLY like your cigarettes. :)

That's an understatement, cars are a bad investment. I would go even further and say, they are more like money pits. The only return is the big :D factor! :p At least not cars that you drive anyway.

Bottom line is, if you are simply trying to buy transportation, the only sound decision is to buy the least expensive vehicle you can find that will do the job (but that is never a "new" vehicle).Agreed, but i was just trying to show that (as I have learned by experience) buying a low end vehicle for $7K-$8K, it's disposable, by the time your loan is paid for, you have NO resale value at all...or trade-in value.
Leases can be even worse.. :D

Buy GM or Hyundai?

People ask me this sometimes, and my typical response is:
"If you really want a Hyundai, fine....but you will have to live with that choice. Telling people you own a Hyundai. Driving a Hyundai.
Me, I couldnt do it. Not because of bias (well, a bit), but just that Hyundai, as great as it is, doesnt have the heritage and reputation of GM or other companies.
The cars are appliance like. Brand styling changes so often, I cant even keep track of what a Sonata looks like anymore. They invent a new grille every 2 years it seems! :eek:

Then, I think about their rich past:
1985 Pony (http://www.scorbett.ca/photos/viewPhotos.php?sid=7) :cry: