1st confirmation that Pontiac and Buick MAY be dropped (official!)

I said don't believe bad news or product cuts till you actually hear them officially. Well, here's the opening salvo (if it hasn't already been posted):

Lutz also said the company could "phase out" brands such as Pontiac and Buick if they fail to improve sales. "I hope we don't have to do that," he said. "What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/24/A01-127736.htm

It would suck to lose a few more brands, but if it cuts out dead weight, redundency, and streamlines the product process, then I do think it will be a good idea..

GM's gotta do what they gotta do :( and if they get rid of Pontiac, then I've gotta do what I've gotta do........bye bye GM

Can Daewoo and Fiat!!

Stupid ****s at GM!

RIP "GTO" :(

GM needs to stop making so many FWD V6 cars and make some AWD, RWD, Hybrids, Diesels, Turbos, more V8s. It isn't like GM has every market covered, they just have the same markets covered more than one.

Build Pontiac a $19K-$25K Kappa sedan/coupe. basically a 1 series. How a bout a FI AWD G6??? AWD V8 Grand Prix????

The Pontiac SUV should have 260HP DOHC V6 and 18" rims STANDARD. They should be going after the Nissan Morrano with that thing, not stealing 'nox sales.

Lets get rid of Saab is the USA :mad:

Of the two, i hope Buick goes. Pontiac has some serious potential if GM would just give them an extreme makeover.

What has Saturn done to deserve to stay,It should've gotten the axe over Oldsmobile and now we'll lose another storied car brand rather than throwing out the Brand that has never really gotten off the ground. If the buying experience is more memorable than the car,that's a BIG problem. I don't understand GM at all,of course,that is the GM M.O.
........Finally get something right,then kill it. How the hell has the Corvette survived all these years,does GM even know they make it?

How the hell has the Corvette survived all these years,does GM even know they make it?

Corvette has had its share of close calls with the chopping block as well.

What has Saturn done to deserve to stay...

Saturn is GM's little experiment ("a different kind of car, from a different kind of company"). Probably the main reason that it's still around.

Which begs the question...

Why try something new, when you can't do anything old right?

Whats the point of 31 flavors if vanilla sucks? :think:

I thought GM refused to close any more brands after the olds closeout cost them a hell of a lot buying out dealerships alone.

Just another news story about how the UAW is causing problems.

All I can say is wow. Although this is not official confirmation that GM is going to axe any divisions, it is pretty upsetting to me that it is being analyzed. I'll say this, if GM axes Pontiac, I'm with Raven99 and saying bye bye to GM. I currently own a 2002 WS6 as well as a '97 Grand Prix GT for as a daily driver. I just finished paying off the WS6, and other than looking into purchasing a house, the GTO is at the top of my list for a new car (with the Solstice right there considering it's price). I'm only 23 years old, and I'm a staunch Pontiac supporter, and by extension GM, but this just chaps my a$$.

There's no way GM can axe another storied division. It just seems insane to do so. AS mentioned in other threads as well as this, how about GM actually starts building exciting, well made cars and see if sales picks up? And actually define the divisions and don't overlap the cars within all the divisions. It just seems so easy to me: make affordable, well built cars for Chevy, actual performance cars for Pontiac with manuals, keep Caddy in its current direction and have GMC take care of trucks and suvs. How hard is that to do? Apparently for GM it is.

I know we've been all told not to believe all the doom and gloom until anything is official, and axing brands is probably the last measure for GM, but this is startling news nonetheless. If GM axes Pontiac, they just axed one more customer.

Which begs the question...

Why try something new, when you can't do anything old right?

Whats the point of 31 flavors if vanilla sucks? :think:

I agree,

More money for Chevy

More models of Camaro :D

Saturn is GM's little experiment ("a different kind of car, from a different kind of company"). Probably the main reason that it's still around.

And now it's neither. It started out as its own corporation outside of GM (a different kind of car company) selling models not shared with any other GM division (a different kind of car).

Now, it's been brought into the GM fold and shares all its cars with other divisions:

Ion --> Cobalt
Vue --> Equinox
Aura --> Malibu
Sky --> Solstice

Wow! They are uncannily different! I think there are two reasons they'll probably get to stay.

#1. GM just can't seem to own up to what a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake the company was in the first place (with all the money that they poured into the Saturn "experiment" they could have built Chevrolet into a company that could compete with the best of the Japanese on its own merits rather than jaw droppingly huge incentives).

#2. Since Saturn dealers are "stand-alone" I bet shutting them down would cost GM way more than getting rid of Pontiac and/or Buick who oftentimes share showroom space with another GM brand.

I would be extremely sad to see Pontiac or Buick either one go. Pontiac is my favorite brand and Buick is the company that GM was "built" on to begin with, but it's going to be a tough road trying to keep the current, unweildy GM going with their freefalling market share. I think they keep making the mistake of trying to make every division a "full line" division. If they want to keep going with all the divisions they have now, each should only have 2 or 3 cars right in the heart of their segment rather than a model on every platform GM is building.

Buick shouldn't be selling trucks or minivans. They should have a near luxury mid-size (Invicta?) and a more luxurious, rear-drive full-sizer (Roadmaster).

Pontiac should have the GTO, Grand Prix, Solstice, maybe G6 coupe and 'vert, but do they really need the G6 sedan (though I like it) when it's so like the Malibu (and soon Aura). Pontiac doesn't need any SUVs. I actually own a Vibe, and love the car, but in my "theory" lets let Pontiac hold up more of the "sporty mid-market")

Chevy should have Cobalt (small) Malibu, (mid), Impala (large), Equinox, Trucks, Camaro (priced comparable to Mustang trim for trim) and Corvette. I actually don't think Chevy is on a bad path if they could get over the public perception of them.

Cadillac I think are doing pretty well. Not 100% all of the time, but look great compared to much of GM. I wonder, however, if you want to make a case for GMC if they shouldn't be the "Cadillac" of trucks rather than having actual Cadillac trucks.

GM: No plans to phase out any brands


By Jason Stein
Automotive News / March 24, 2005

DETROIT -- General Motors reasserted on Thursday it has no intention of eliminating any of its brands in the future.

Mark LaNeve, vice president of sales and marketing for GM, told Automotive News the automaker is investing heavily in all eight brands. Phasing out a particular division is not under consideration.

"We have no plans, or even discussions, of killing any brands," LaNeve said, "We're investing more heavily than ever in product and marketing programs."

On Wednesday, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz told a Morgan Stanley Automotive conference in New York if one of GM's "troubled brands" fails to turn around, "then we'd have to take a look at a phase-out," Lutz said.

Published reports linked Pontiac and Buick to Lutz's comments.

LaNeve reemphasized in a message to dealers Thursday that both brands are safe.

LaNeve also said GM is managing Buick, Pontiac and GMC as one channel and providing those divisions with a product portfolio "to service that channel and to focus " the lineup.

That represents a key difference from Oldsmobile, which GM killed last year, he said.

"These portfolios we're going to deliver we don't have to deliver an A to Z portfolio for those three brands," he said. "We can tighten and focus them. I'd rather have four or five great Pontiacs or Buicks than eight undistinguishable products. That business model makes a lot of sense."

Cut spending on Saab in U.S
Cut spending on Daewoo
Cut spending on Fiat
Cut Subaru and sell to Toyota

Just another news story about how the UAW is causing problems.


And what would we have without the small amount of organized labor still involved in manufacturing in the United States?

People complain about people about democrats or liberals buying imported "foriegn pieces of crap" and then others (sometimes the same folks) turn around and bash the unions. You know,the only thing that separates our skilled workforce from a bunch of Koreans working for beans. Without the unions cars wouldnt even be built in the US, and if they were you'd better believe it wouldnt be by anything resembling a non-immigrant US citizen.

/rant

This seems more like an attempt by Lutz to motivate dealers. "Sell more cars or we're taking your toys away." Combined with the LeNeve comments, it seems to have little weight and just a haphazard, loose-lipped sound off from Bob.

GM's gotta do what they gotta do :( and if they get rid of Pontiac, then I've gotta do what I've gotta do........bye bye GM

Amen.

GM's gotta do what they gotta do :( and if they get rid of Pontiac, then I've gotta do what I've gotta do........bye bye GM
Yup, me too. I have a GTP and if Pontiac goes, it will be replaced by a Maxima.

Pontiac/GMC is considered by GM as one group. I doubt Pontiac is going anywhere.

here's a tip, don't double up on cars. initially GM started to share minor between brands like pontiac and chevrolet to save money. then they started sharing whole platforms. eventually you end up with multiple cars/trucks, with a little different skin. what GM needs to do is stop making multiple cars in the same categories. if chevy has a mid size rwd v6 then pontiac shouldn't have that same car, maybe they should have a FWD i4? one company sells a minivan, maybe another can sell a higher end mini van or conversion van or whatever. the only thing is that GM would have to balance this out and not leave one brand with only cheap cars, it will hurt that brands image.

Neither brand is going anywhere.

We got a letter straight from Detroit today telling us it was all taken out of context, etc, etc... Essentially, Lutz said a lot more than what was quoted. If I remember tomorrow, I will take a picture of the letter.

I work in a GM store, btw.

Was it this letter?

"LET ME BE CLEAR, WE ARE NOT, I REPEAT NOT, DISCUSSING
THE ELIMINATION OF ANY OF OUR BRANDS. TO THE CONTRARY,
WE ARE INVESTING MORE HEAVILY IN NEW PRODUCT AND
MARKETING PROGRAMS TO BUILD ALL OF OUR BRANDS, DRIVE
SALES AND IMPROVE THE VALUE OF OUR FRANCHISE. BOB LUTZ
IN PARTICULAR HAS BEEN A HUGE CHAMPION FOR RE-IGNITING
THE PONTIAC AND BUICK BRANDS WITH WORLD CLASS
PRODUCT."

Killing Buick would be one thing, but killing Pontiac would be a bad idea IMO...I'd look at GM completely differently and lose a lot of loyalty if they killed Yacs.

But then again I am a biased muscle-car head... :rolleyes:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352296

Cut spending on Saab in U.S
Cut spending on Daewoo
Cut spending on Fiat
Cut Subaru and sell to Toyota

SAAB would definately work as a Europe only brand, I think that is a great idea.

Daewoo is a good engineering force, that is cheap, working on new small cars for the GM world. They should not have their spending cut.

Fiat is a done deal once GM pays them the randsom, I mean settlement money. BTW GM did get some plants, diesel tech, and tranny stuff out of the crap whole.

Subaru is essential to GM keeping SAAB alive. BTW I don't think Toyota would buy it. GM only owns about 30% of Fuji heavy motors who own all of Subaru so GM really doesn't own it and it is definately not in the GM fold.

Pretty soon it's gonna be Chevy and Cadillac, thats it.

Pretty soon it's gonna be Chevy and Cadillac, thats it.

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Pontiac and GMC.

And saturn ;)

IMO if they got rid of pontiac i would move on to ford chevy has nothing in their that i want other then a vette (but i can't afford one yet) pontiac is really the only :cool: brand of GM that have cars that look halfway decent. chevy has always been 2nd to pontiac but they sell more and thats all that matters to GM ,pontiacs have for the most part have always looked better,more options base and interior is far above anything chevy has. so if pontiac goes i go with them.

Let's not jump to conclusions here, but just ahead of time...if it ever does happen, Chrysler/Dodge will get all of my future business.

yea i hate ford way more then dodge, altho i think dodge cant make anything right id give my buisness to them before anyone else... i want a new firebird so much... and then i was thinking GTO, then I was think solistice, even a Grand Prix, which just won the first 3 places in one of the recent races.... how can they axe that?

Pontiac has so much to offer, it just needs a little help, as does Chevy and a few others...

The platform designs are good, because they offer multipule car designs without to much overhead...

...The platform designs are good, because they offer multipule car designs without to much overhead...

Wrong!

Anytime you have multiple entities selling the same car, you are shooting the costs right through the roof. ALL of it in overhead.

You have separate divisions. Each division has their own marketing department. Each has their own dealer network. Each has their own advertizing budgets. You have double the people working from the General Manager on down to the people who do followups on your purchase.

All for essentially the same car!

If the same people are buying both the Grand Prix and the Impala, or there is enough of an overlap that a single good design can attract both buyers, you not only save on creating 2 designs for the same car, even bigger is the overhead you save by having a single marketing, dealer, & service network.

When GM had 45% or even 30% of the market, multiple division making multiple versions of the same car was financially feasible. But if GM getrs to just 20% of the market (where they are now if you dismiss fleet & discounted or employee sales), GM ends up being crushed under it's own weight.

GM is at a point where it has to do one of 3 things:

1. End vehicle overlap, and have each division the sole producer of certain chassis.

2. Make differences between each division more clear, ie: each division has a single level of a chassis. A Grand Prix would come only in GXP level, LeCrosse would come only as a more soft luxury level, and Impala would only come in value trim.

3. GM would have to trim redundant divisions. Right now, Pontiac is the most redundant of all GM divisions. Every model it has is also being made by another GM division, and Pontiac and Chevrolet buyers are virturally interchangable.

3. GM would have to trim redundant divisions. Right now, Pontiac is the most redundant of all GM divisions. Every model it has is also being made by another GM division, and Pontiac and Chevrolet buyers are virturally interchangable.
What about GMC? Although I can see a need for GMC over Pontiac, I think GMC is more reduntant than Pontiac since Pontiac has two cars that aren't shared with anything else in GMNA.

well the way i see it, its essentally the same car yes, but it attracts different people, like I wouldnt buy the Impala but I would buy the Grand Prix, the Grand Prix looks so much nicer and sleaker although its exactly the same besides any skin over the top of it... now for the Vans and the Trucks, and everything else... yea they are redundant, but like the firebird, unfortunatly i didnt used to like the firebird, accually i thought it was ugly, even when i bought mine i got it cause of the engine... i loved the camaros, but i never thought about the firebird... now i would buy a 02' WS6 before I were to get a vette... i think the WS6 looks nicer although they are different style

but it may cost a lot more i dont know

Chevy is 2nd rate!! if you want a cheap ok car go to a chevy dealer the only thing chevy gots going for them is the C6 vette and thats it :alert: everything else they offer is outdated and old. ohh i forgot the impala and monte get redone next year. (a new front,rear clip and it's a new model :confused: ) if GM gets rid of pontiac they'll lose alot. personal in my city i see far more grand prix then impalas. and the GTO is selling great from what i've heard. and with the solstice next year pontiac will have a whole new line up and chevy will still have the old impala and monte. just because chevy sells more everybody assume's it's a better brand. haven't we seen this before?? thats right the f-body. the mustang out sold the f-body 2 to 1. so based on that alot of people think the stang is a better car. and we all know the truth about that :D .

and at the rate chevy's going with the (new) camaro it will be 2100 before anybody see's that. give it a year chevy will take the 98-02 put new front and rear clips on them give it the 5.3L V8 and call it the new camaro!! can't give it the LS2 because it will be competing with the vette and gto and we all know that next camaro must compete with the mustang on (price,power and looks) just my thoughts

saddly GM's problem is it competes more with itself then Ford or anyone else

There are times on this board I wonder where the HELL people come up with this anti-GM mentality. Not competing with Ford? Where the HELL do you come up with that assumption?

The Ford 500 is as vanilla as they come. The '06 Impala looks sharp and in top form will offer ONE HUNDRED HP more than a 500 Limited. But that means it doesn't compete?

Or, how about a GTO that came within 1 point of beating the Mustang in a recent C&D road test, a test that has been proven to be a friggen joke. C&D was trying to defend their own 10 best choice and nothing more.

How about the G6? The Fusion is still a year away, and when it does show up will be 30 HP shy of the party?

Oh wait, I am sure the Focus is better than the Cobalt, right? No, I don't think so there, either...

So wait, exactly WHERE does Ford own GM, as some of you whiners seem to keep claiming? With the Mustang? Maybe...but the GTO, in its niche, crushes the current GT. With the Crown Vic? Right...the Thunderbird? Oh sure...that car is less popular than even the SSR, and is getting canned later this year.

Meanwhile, we have the TrailBlazer SS, Cobalt SS, C6, Ion Redline, Grand Prix GXP etc. that go un-challenged by Ford. So exactly how does GM NOT compete with Ford?

With all due respect, some of you need to get your head out of your ass and visit your local GM dealer. You might just be surprised.