Really why the F-Body died?

Is there any grounds to the notion that, just maybe, GM ended production in 2002 and exaggerated the numbers a little, to escape a contract with the CAW that would keep the Camaro from evolving from a Co-Venture with Holden. Those clever ba$t@rds!...

mmmmm, no. Getting involved with Holden seems to be Lutz's idea. The F-bod was doomed waaaay before he came on board to GM.

Here is the truth...I killed the fbody. I had to put it out of its missery cause the 4th gens are so damn ugly.

Here is the truth...I killed the fbody. I had to put it out of its missery cause the 4th gens are so damn ugly.

And a Malibu Maxx isn't ugly??

Nope, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and judging by Malibu sales, I guess you are in the minority?

There was no logical chassis to put the Fbody on back in 99-00( when the theoretical 5th gen shoulda been well on its way ) , even up till now there isnt one . Couple that with the fact the 2002 Fbody woulda needed substantial investment to meet 2003 safety regs . There is your answer to why they really really reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally killed the F-body . The CAW drama and all the other drama is a product of its death , NOT the reason for it . Read that sentence a few times , please people ;)

Its as simple as that

Nope, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and judging by Malibu sales, I guess you are in the minority?

Personally I think chevy should just kill the Malibu 4 door and only offer the Maxx . The Maxx actually looks pretty good IMO .

Ok GM Getting involved with Holden????? GM has owned Holden for a very LONG time. They just decided it was about time they imported some of the stuff they have over there.

Ok From what I have heard is that Gm had planned to kill the Fbody in 98 (was suppost to be its last production year) but was begged by several people in & out of the company to keep it alive for a few more years. The former guy (the guy before Lutz) hated the car anyways.

there are several factors in Gm letting the car go. One most important matter was the car was no longer holding up to Safety standards.

Nope, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Take your own advice. You might think the 4th gens are ugly, but the owners of them don't. A lot of people may think the "turd" gen is a redneck mullet mobile but you might not. Like you said, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". :cool:

Nope, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and judging by Malibu sales, I guess you are in the minority?

I guess that I am.

Ok GM Getting involved with Holden????? GM has owned Holden for a very LONG time. They just decided it was about time they imported some of the stuff they have over there.

Ok From what I have heard is that Gm had planned to kill the Fbody in 98 (was suppost to be its last production year) but was begged by several people in & out of the company to keep it alive for a few more years. The former guy (the guy before Lutz) hated the car anyways.

there are several factors in Gm letting the car go. One most important matter was the car was no longer holding up to Safety standards.

well I can say that supposed to being killed in 98 is wrong.

The mild styling updates, LS1 engine and bigger brakes would not be done for one year.

And new Malibus.....kind of dull. They need some SS package--17's, sportier looks and a 3.9L

In my opinion, the Maxx is right up there with the Aztec in terms of beauty. And because opinions are unique and individual, I'm just as right about that as anybody else. :D

BTW Al...what percentage of Malibu sales did the "Maxx" make up?

Is there any grounds to the notion that, just maybe, GM ended production in 2002 and exaggerated the numbers a little, to escape a contract with the CAW that would keep the Camaro from evolving from a Co-Venture with Holden. Those clever ba$t@rds!...

As krazzycowgirl & 92RS shearn said, the F-bodies were doomed well before they actually died. IMO, they were doomed even before they came out:

*The upper part of the 4th gen "A" pillar a mere inches from your head, combined with the impossibility of countering it with a side curtain or "A" pillar airbag made it impossible to pass now current safety standards.

*The whole 4th gen business case was based on sales projections that never materialized.

*The Ste Therese plant had a capacity of over 200,000 cars per year, so it was underutilized from day one of the 4th gen production.



The f-body got a revision in '98 because of the new LS1 engine that replaced the LT1 (different engine dimensions required a revised front end). A short time afterwards, GM cut funds for the replacement. The coupe market implodied in the late 90s and everyone was cutting coupes from the lineup like crazy.

That plus Big Als Z thought they were ugly. ;)

Seriously, there's plenty of other reasons why the F-bodies were cancelled, and there were plenty of people behind the scenes that either hated the F-body or at the very least, indifferent to it. But a deep diabolical conspiracy isn't part of all this. In fact, it's a credit to Scott and the people who were behind Camaro that the F-body not only lasted till the end of the 2002 run, but also the fact that the F-body's performance was as outstanding as it was in the end.

General Motor's Holden division actually is helping to revive the Camaro.

Read this carefully:
GM DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO GET OUT OF THEIR CAW CONTRACT!!!!

GM lived up to every part of their contract with the CAW over the Ste. Therese plant......and then some!!

GM extended production of the F-body long after it was practical, for those layed off GM provided a pension or job placement. GM also worked with the local and provincial governments for over a year to find a buyer or another use for the plant, GM gave quite a bit of money to local colleges and entities to help develop other businesses and education in the area, and lastly (but not finally) GM EXPANDED employment at their Oshawa Canada plants that more than offset the job losses at Ste. Therese.

I don't give GM a break when they don't deserve one, but in this area, GM went overboard in working with not only the CAW, but also the governments, & the people in the area.

GM could have simply closed down the plant, and paid off the people who work there as per CAW contract & left it at that since they lost the car they were contracted to build. However, GM went far beyond that, and still is.

They also made a point of bulldozing the F-body plant as soon as they could.

Finally, there's good reason GM isn't talking about a future Camaro.

Now, about that Malibu.....

Personally I think chevy should just kill the Malibu 4 door and only offer the Maxx . The Maxx actually looks pretty good IMO .

Compare the shape of the Malibu Maxx to a 1981 Escort and I think you'll see the inspiration. The Maxx is a dismal design with poor packaging priorities.

Is there any grounds to the notion that, just maybe, GM ended production in 2002 and exaggerated the numbers a little, to escape a contract with the CAW that would keep the Camaro from evolving from a Co-Venture with Holden. Those clever ba$t@rds!...

:rolleyes:

Compare the shape of the Malibu Maxx to a 1981 Escort and I think you'll see the inspiration. The Maxx is a dismal design with poor packaging priorities.

Well, I guess you have never driven it, nor have you used it to move a stove from your house to the junk yard, or have to put in a 35 gallon air compressor in it, or take a 8 hr trip and get 30 mpg, and be able to pull in and out of a tight parking spot, unlike that MONDO gas guzzling Nissan, you say you have....but yeah, dismal design with poor packaging priorities, bingo you are right on the money.

I dont like Mustangs (as we all know) but I think the last gen was MUCH nicer looking then the 4th gen Camaros.

no rides in my car for you al. :p

big al...how in the world could you say that a 4th gen is ugly???? Bland maybe, but ugly...Most definitely not, however, the third gen ROFLMAO that was just 4 wheels and an excuse. Those things are uglier than the fox body mustangs. Atleast with the 4th gens they had balls to back up their looks....cant say that for third gens :(

huh--I think 3rd and 4th gens looks great. A thirdgen IROC-Z holds a slight edge for me-seeing the dashboard move and ride harshness suck though. But I can see the hood.

4th gens are much tighter and ride better--can't see the hood and the wipers are not hidden at all.

And for the day they were made in--thirdgens backed up there looks just fine--performance wise. The 305 auto in LG4/L03/LB9 variations, kinda sucked though--but the 350 TPI and 305 TPI 5 speed were great. IN fact--they should have been the only engines in the IROC, Trans Am/Formula.

It's not just a conspiracy theory, it's a prospect....A theory says, "If I buy a Lotto ticket I could win a million dollars", once I buy the ticket however, it's NO LONGER A THEORY!!!but a prospect.(Altho this was made in "jest" there IS SOME PROSPECT TO THE IDEA....)
GM DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO GET OUT OF THEIR CAW CONTRACT!!!!

GM lived up to every part of their contract with the CAW over the Ste. Therese plant......and then some!!

GM extended production of the F-body long after it was practical, for those layed off GM provided a pension or job placement. GM also worked with the local and provincial governments for over a year to find a buyer or another use for the plant, GM gave quite a bit of money to local colleges and entities to help develop other businesses and education in the area, and lastly (but not finally) GM EXPANDED employment at their Oshawa Canada plants that more than offset the job losses at Ste. Therese.
GM doesn't have a heart to care about anyone, this is BS, they HAD TO REMAIN IN PRODUCTION and relocate, retrain per agreements with the CAW and Canadian Govt. An agreement which they broke anyways and owed Canada some $300 MILL for, and was the reason they didin't withdraw from Canada completely...but expanded operations elsewhere.
Don't believe the headlines, there's way more that went on behind the scenes that has only recently been surfacing..
They also made a point of bulldozing the F-body plant as soon as they could.
Another "Goodwill " display toward the CAW workers in that area :rolleyes: , to ensure they couldn't be forced to honor their agreements..
Finally, there's good reason GM isn't talking about a future Camaro. Yes, I'll bet there is! :D


While GM makes a record 6.7 billion dollars US in 1997, there still is no word on the future of the St. Therese plant, nor of a second model for the facility
Buzz Hargrove,
CAW National President
"Once people start looking at this company, remember it's still the largest company on the fortune 500 list with $178 billion in revenue last year. It made $23 billion in profit since 1993, a five-year period, that's not a bad place to have your money given the environment around the world today. So there'll be some short term concern and moving away from GM but long term, GM is going to be around , they'll be strong".
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/GM_Strike_Impact.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/St._Therese_Plant_Future.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/Auto_Pact_Lobby.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/Flint_Strike_Over.asp

Hargrove says the strike and all of the hardship it created throughout North America, could have been avoided if GM had only listened to the needs of its workers in Flint and not the advice of Wall Street analysts. He feels GM underestimated the strength of the UAW and the militancy of the American autoworker

http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archive_index.asp

Buzz Hargrove
CAW National President
"The companies are making incredible profits because of the efforts of our members. Our quality, our productivity, our efforts to reduce waste, to control costs, are unprecedented in the industry at all three companies.
Our success should mean we can do our bargaining this time without any sacrifice on the part of our membership by having to go to the street to support their just demands.
Wages are an issue for our members in the plant. We've earned the right to improve substantially our wages, our cost of living, time off the job is absolutely key."July 29, 1999 :eek:

Ok GM Getting involved with Holden????? GM has owned Holden for a very LONG time. They just decided it was about time they imported some of the stuff they have over there.
Yes, you're correct, but you can't have the Camaro made in 2 seperate locations, Australlia and Canada. And Australlia already was using the platform of choice, true?

GM doesn't have a heart to care about anyone, this is BS, they HAD TO REMAIN IN PRODUCTION and relocate, retrain per agreements with the CAW and Canadian Govt. An agreement which they broke anyways and owed Canada some $300 MILL for, and was the reason they didin't withdraw from Canada completely...but expanded operations elsewhere.
Don't believe the headlines, there's way more that went on behind the scenes that has only recently been surfacing..


Check your PM.

I dont like Mustangs (as we all know) but I think the last gen was MUCH nicer looking then the 4th gen Camaros.
:death: :death: :death: Fawk you Al, 4th gen Camaro's are among the most beautiful vehicles, or objects of any kind for that matter, to ever be created. I am right, you are wrong. The end.


...and your mom is fat.
It's not just a conspiracy theory, it's a prospect....A theory says, "If I buy a Lotto ticket I could win a million dollars", once I buy the ticket however, it's NO LONGER A THEORY!!!but a prospect.(Altho this was made in "jest" there IS SOME PROSPECT TO THE IDEA....)

GM doesn't have a heart to care about anyone, this is BS, they HAD TO REMAIN IN PRODUCTION and relocate, retrain per agreements with the CAW and Canadian Govt. An agreement which they broke anyways and owed Canada some $300 MILL for, and was the reason they didin't withdraw from Canada completely...but expanded operations elsewhere.
Don't believe the headlines, there's way more that went on behind the scenes that has only recently been surfacing..

Another "Goodwill " display toward the CAW workers in that area :rolleyes: , to ensure they couldn't be forced to honor their agreements..
Yes, I'll bet there is! :D




http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/GM_Strike_Impact.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/St._Therese_Plant_Future.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/Auto_Pact_Lobby.asp
http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archives/Flint_Strike_Over.asp



http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/archive_index.asp

July 29, 1999 :eek:

Holy crap! :eek:

:death: :death: :death: Fawk you Al, 4th gen Camaro's are among the most beautiful vehicles, or objects of any kind for that matter, to ever be created. I am right, you are wrong. The end.


...and your mom is fat.


Holy crap! :eek:

Would you mind telling me the cause for your "holy crap"? I read it all, hell I knew about it before but I still cant draw a line between that and why the fbody died.

Here is the truth...I killed the fbody. I had to put it out of its missery cause the 4th gens are so damn ugly.

I had a 3rd gen Z and loved it, but when they re-designed the front-end in '98, it reminded me of the old split-front bumper Z's of the 70's that I had to have one. I like both the 3rd and 4th gens, but the 4th gen seems like a natural progression from the 3rd, only with the power to actually back up it's looks. For the record, I like the Maxx better than the sedan, but the front end, especially the headlight set-up, needs to be re-designed for me to take the car seriously. And there is no way the Maxx could be called good looking, and in the same breath call the 4th gens ugly, unless you're high on something!!!

Would you mind telling me the cause for your "holy crap"? I read it all, hell I knew about it before but I still cant draw a line between that and why the fbody died.
t'was sarcasm :p

To get back to an earlier post, could somebody explain to me the difference in safety features between an '02 Mustang & the '03 & '04 models? as far as I know they're the same & don't incorporate the A-pillar airbags. So, if the Mustang didn't need them then why did the F-bods? It's a shame the 4th gens couldn't get those last 2 years. I would have liked to have seen the Firebird go out with a 35th Anniversary Trans Am with an LS-6 engine & ZO6 front brakes! That would have been the ULTIMATE killer & collectible Firebird. :)