redzed 02-19-2005, 01:25 PM That's right, the Lexus IS350 is going to have at least 300 horsepower. It should now be apparent that the Infiniti upgraded G35's will at least be competitive at 298 horsepower in the manual version (280hp with an auto) but the 3.6 liter Cadillac CTS has been outgunned by at least 45 horsepower.
Why is GM's relatively new "High Feature" V6 already looking dated?
I think the answer is that GM Powertrain has spread its engineering resources too thin over too many variants of too many engine familes. Instead of producing a single family of DOHC V6 engines that would span every product from light trucks to luxury cars, GM has wasted time and money on projects like the pushrod "High Value" V6s and the Vortec Inline family of truck engine. Instead of simplifying its engine range, GM actually seems to be creating more engine variants while retaining the old ones as well.
Z28Wilson 02-19-2005, 01:45 PM How did I know this would be another chance to dig GM?
I think the answer is that GM Powertrain has spread its engineering resources too thin over too many variants of too many engine familes. Instead of producing a single family of DOHC V6 engines that would span every product from light trucks to luxury cars
And if they did, you'd be saying "why does a Cadillac share an engine with a Chevy Colorado?" "Parts bin stuff cheapens a luxury car!" "Nissan transmissions are bullet proof!" :D
90 Z28SS 02-19-2005, 01:50 PM Ya know , you actually said something I can kinda agree . I don't exactly feel like discussing it , but I do think GM's vvt 3.6 should have been like to cars now , like the good ol faithful 3.8 has been to the past . I driven a few cars with the 3.6 in it and its a great engine , and the SRX neways , felt much more powerful than 255 hp .
redzed 02-19-2005, 02:34 PM Ya know , you actually said something I can kinda agree . I don't exactly feel like discussing it , but I do think GM's vvt 3.6 should have been like to cars now , like the good ol faithful 3.8 has been to the past.
I'd argue that the 3.6 liter DOHC (or a far superior engine) should have been used even more widely than the Buick 3800.
Big Als Z 02-20-2005, 01:44 AM The 3.6 still has a very low compression ratio, to use regular gas. Im sure there is plenty of hp left in that 3.6. 300hp is just a few points of compression away.
Chuck! 02-20-2005, 02:03 AM The IS300 is horribly overrated. They need to improve more than just the engine on the IS350.
edit - I still wouldnt mind seeing the IS430 become a reality though.
Big Als Z 02-20-2005, 02:18 AM IS is also very small compared to the CTS, G35, and 3 series.
Gold_Rush 02-20-2005, 09:22 AM Mag pics
http://euro.lexusownersclub.com/forums/uploads/post-361-1108229085.jpg
http://euro.lexusownersclub.com/forums/uploads/post-361-1108229100.jpg
According to that mag, the IS250's engine will be a 215hp 2.5L v6. The IS350 will have a 315hp 3.5L v6, and the euro markets will get a 2.2L direct-injection turbo diesel option.
315 horses is pretty good for a 3.5L v6.
The 3.6 still has a very low compression ratio, to use regular gas. Im sure there is plenty of hp left in that 3.6. 300hp is just a few points of compression away.
I wouldn't say it's "low" compression with a static ratio of 10.2:1, but you're correct that tuning it to run on regular gas accounts for some of the difference compared to its competitors. And yes, the 3.6 is supposed to be getting some more ponies next year.
MissedShift 02-20-2005, 11:00 AM Look at that. Lexus managed to make it even more bland than the previous year. Amazing.
That's right, the Lexus IS350 is going to have at least 300 horsepower. It should now be apparent that the Infiniti upgraded G35's will at least be competitive at 298 horsepower in the manual version (280hp with an auto) but the 3.6 liter Cadillac CTS has been outgunned by at least 45 horsepower.
Why is GM's relatively new "High Feature" V6 already looking dated?
I think the answer is that GM Powertrain has spread its engineering resources too thin over too many variants of too many engine familes. Instead of producing a single family of DOHC V6 engines that would span every product from light trucks to luxury cars, GM has wasted time and money on projects like the pushrod "High Value" V6s and the Vortec Inline family of truck engine. Instead of simplifying its engine range, GM actually seems to be creating more engine variants while retaining the old ones as well.
1) only 300HP for the top of the line car???? :lol: CTS has 400HP
2) 3.6L runs on 87 octane, not the more expensive 91-93 like the other cars.
3) who says GM won't release a higher tuned 3.6L or make a DOHC 3.8L?
4) Inline engines are better for low end torque, trucks need torque. 4.2L is rated by many as one of the best 6 cyls ever made.
5) High value V6 cost $800 less to build then DOHC V6s. 98% of the public dosn't know what DOHC stands for or how it is different from OHV or SOHC. HV V6s make low displacement DOHCs pointless.
6) Why would I want to buy a expensive luxury car that doesn't even get a better engine than a pickup or a cheap entry level sedan??? :confused:
redzed 02-21-2005, 12:10 PM 1) only 300HP for the top of the line car???? :lol: CTS has 400HP We're talking about a $30K Lexus and the 400hp CTS-V cost well over $50K(!) and has the crudest drivetrain in the luxury segment.
2) 3.6L runs on 87 octane, not the more expensive 91-93 like the other cars.
If you can't afford premium fuel, you probably can't afford a Lexus. Go to a Chevy dealer and buy a Daewoo-built Aveo.
3) who says GM won't release a higher tuned 3.6L or make a DOHC 3.8L?
We're talking about a actual, realLexus that's going on sale this year , not a future "what-if" GM engine that only exists in your mind.
4) Inline engines are better for low end torque, trucks need torque. 4.2L is rated by many as one of the best 6 cyls ever made.
The 4.2 liter Votec Inline 6 is a dead end project that can't fit into a Colorado/Canyon (or passenger cars) and can't fully replace the 4.3 liter V6 in full-sized truck and vans because it's too expensive to produce.
5) High value V6 cost $800 less to build then DOHC V6s. 98% of the public dosn't know what DOHC stands for or how it is different from OHV or SOHC. HV V6s make low displacement DOHCs pointless.
Yeah, but the "High Value" V6 is only fit for rental cars and high-incentive units.
6) Why would I want to buy a expensive luxury car that doesn't even get a better engine than a pickup or a cheap entry level sedan??? :confused:
I don't know what car you're talking about. Do you know? Probably not.
Melee Penguin 02-21-2005, 01:16 PM And the CTS will still outsell the IS350. Your point?
0toinsanein5.4sec 02-21-2005, 02:03 PM Why is GM's relatively new "High Feature" V6 already looking dated?
.
IMO GM relies a lot on displacement for power. the ecotech gets low numbers per displacement compared to competitors.
in toyota's celica u can get a 1.8L with 180 hp, 130 ftlbs (or one with 140 hp, 125 ftlbs)
in the cobalt u get a 2.2L with 145 hp, 155 ftlbs
although looking around at what some others offer GM seems to be pretty much in the middle with the standard power/displacement, so i dont know.
Geoff Chadwick 02-21-2005, 03:13 PM "I love winding my S2000 to 8000rpm to make it move!" Why is it that a S2000 with a tiny little 4 cylinder gets nearly identical miles per gallon compared to a 2004 Z06 corvette? High tech 4 banger vs ancient pushrod motor. There's a reason for that. Also there's something called "tq". The S2000 engine is more complicated, less efficient, more expensive to maintain and buy and produces less power then an LS1 with less then half the displacement. That is nothing to be proud of.
That's right, the Lexus IS350 is going to have at least 300 horsepower. Cadillac CTS has been outgunned by at least 45 horsepower.
No such car exists. The current IS300 has 215HP. I dont see a 100hp jump without a substantial change in additude. It is going to have 300HP? You have ZERO proof of that. Yet you seem to think you do. I think you're a moron and have no idea what you're talking about. And I have proof.
Also you didnt count that GM can make changes to. Funny that...
And if they did, you'd be saying "why does a Cadillac share an engine with a Chevy Colorado?" "Parts bin stuff cheapens a luxury car!" "Nissan transmissions are bullet proof!"
Yes Redzed would. He would also miss the fact that the 350Z is a bloated heavy car and that the G35 is the same chassis as a Nissan Sedan. It's okay when Nissan does it, but if GM does it, it's bad practice. Moron logic at work.
We're talking about a $30K Lexus and the 400hp CTS-V cost well over $50K(!) and has the crudest drivetrain in the luxury segment.
Crudest? That's a matter of Opinion... and you will have a hard time backing that up. The CTS-V's driveline last I knew was doing quite well.
If you can't afford premium fuel, you probably can't afford a Lexus. Go to a Chevy dealer and buy a Daewoo-built Aveo.
Price and Availability, also the need to use it genius. Some areas dont have 93 Octane. Also that adds to the ownership cost of the vehicle. If you're buying a car as a status symbol and have more money then god, sure. But last I checked, running premium fuel still discouraged buyers, hence why a lot of companies still dont make engines that NEED it in the "normal" car segment. In luxury cars it goes into it, but you're going to FORCE the buyer to make a decision. I'd rather not.
We're talking about a actual, realLexus that's going on sale this year , not a future "what-if" GM engine that only exists in your mind.
No you're not. As the Mazda Rx8 proved very well only a few years ago, even 40hp can dissapear in the blink of an eye, even AFTER production has started. This car isnt written in stone at all. Once again, you're claiming something with no proof. None. Squat.
The 4.2 liter Votec Inline 6 is a dead end project that can't fit into a Colorado/Canyon (or passenger cars) and can't fully replace the 4.3 liter V6 in full-sized truck and vans because it's too expensive to produce.
Ha. I wouldnt be so quick to that. Also a lot has been learned from the 4.2L project. It had its reasons, which arent done yet. Once again, spewing crap that holds value, like your currently non-existent IS350.
Yeah, but the "High Value" V6 is only fit for rental cars and high-incentive units.
I tend to see the "high value" engine in a lot of cars, and I also see it getting phased out. Also it's a cheap engine to build and maintain. But that's a bad thing to you. Very bad. We need $100 oil changes on every car. Is that what you want? Well, obviously it is.
And the CTS will still outsell the IS350. Your point?
Yes it will...
And This IS300 or the future IS350 will have NOTHING on the 3 series. Stop making these stupid threads where you spew crap about some Nissan or Infinity, or Honda or ANYTHING that goes against the 3 series. Nothing will ever de-throne the 3 series. It has 20 years of Heritage behind it. Some new car model has squat - and that says something. Also the styling on the IS350 is quite Bland. You cant say that about the 3 series.
GM's engines may have less HP/Liter, but they have much broader Tq curves and higher Tq numbers. It's a toss up. Quick vs Fast. Both move, but one feels fast, and one doesnt.
And there is still no evidence that Redzed even owns the vehicles he says he does :lol: Once again a bitter man (or child) trying to play with things he doesnt fully understand, and saying things that arent true.
EDIT: What, no poll this time?
AronZ28 02-21-2005, 03:15 PM That Lexus looks exactly like the current ES330. The front end also reminds me of a Camry, which also reminds me of the ES330. People looking for this type of car do not want anything bland. Look at the competition. G35, CTS, TL, 3-series, etc. All of these cars are very bold, orginal designs(especially the CTS :cool: ) I'm sure it will sell more than the IS300, but with that styling, it wouldn't suprise me if it didn't meet their sales goal.
On another note, Toyota might have a sporty car again. If you think GM enthusiasts have it bad, go look at those poor Celica, MR2, and Supra fans, who don't have ANYTHING even remotely sporty to buy.
redzed 02-21-2005, 04:31 PM "I love winding my S2000 to 8000rpm to make it move!" Why is it that a S2000 with a tiny little 4 cylinder gets nearly identical miles per gallon compared to a 2004 Z06 corvette? High tech 4 banger vs ancient pushrod motor. There's a reason for that. Also there's something called "tq". The S2000 engine is more complicated, less efficient, more expensive to maintain and buy and produces less power then an LS1 with less then half the displacement. That is nothing to be proud of.
I think you're losing sight of the fact that CTS's 3.6 liter HFV6 is mediocre in both horsepower and torque compared to the best Japanese competition.
Your Honda S2000 example should how little you know about where the industry is going. Honda is moving away from 8000rpm screamers and towards turbocharging. The S2000's engine is derived from unit that was found in the long dead Honda Prelude, the S2000 is its sole application and the S2000 is going bye-bye before too long.
No such car exists. The current IS300 has 215HP. I dont see a 100hp jump without a substantial change in additude. It is going to have 300HP? You have ZERO proof of that. Yet you seem to think you do. I think you're a moron and have no idea what you're talking about. And I have proof.
Also you didnt count that GM can make changes to. Funny that...
You don't have "proof," or even a clue, do you? The IS350 is premiering at Geneva on March 3rd and the "power bump" will be in the neighborhood of nearly 100 horsepower. Considering that the detuned 3.5 liter in the Avalon makes 280 horsepower, it isn't as big a "power bump" as you'd think
Crudest? That's a matter of Opinion... and you will have a hard time backing that up. The CTS-V's driveline last I knew was doing quite well.
If you don't find the CTS-V's drivetrain "crude" for a $52,000 car, then you have very low standards.
Price and Availability, also the need to use it genius. Some areas dont have 93 Octane. Also that adds to the ownership cost of the vehicle. If you're buying a car as a status symbol and have more money then god, sure. But last I checked, running premium fuel still discouraged buyers, hence why a lot of companies still dont make engines that NEED it in the "normal" car segment. In luxury cars it goes into it, but you're going to FORCE the buyer to make a decision. I'd rather not.
1. By definition "premium fuel" 91 octane and up.
2. Every modern car that requires premium fuel also has a knock sensor, so if you put "regular" in the tank, you wouldn't have to worry about doing any damage - only decreased performance and fuel economy.
No you're not. As the Mazda Rx8 proved very well only a few years ago, even 40hp can dissapear in the blink of an eye, even AFTER production has started. This car isnt written in stone at all. Once again, you're claiming something with no proof. None. Squat.
I somehow doubt that the Lexus IS350 will lose 60 horsepower by the time it comes to the USA. That would mean that the Lexus would be making 15 horsepower less than the Toyota Avalon. It ain't happening.
Ha. I wouldnt be so quick to that. Also a lot has been learned from the 4.2L project. It had its reasons, which arent done yet. Once again, spewing crap that holds value, like your currently non-existent IS350.
The thinking behind the Vortec Inline was entirely faulty. There no market demand for inline-6s and inline-5s as replacements for V6s and V8s.
I tend to see the "high value" engine in a lot of cars, and I also see it getting phased out. Also it's a cheap engine to build and maintain. But that's a bad thing to you. Very bad. We need $100 oil changes on every car. Is that what you want? Well, obviously it is.
The "High Value" family should never have happened to begin with. I could care less if its a "cheap engine to build."
Oh, and what up with the "$100 oil change" nonsense. Everyone knows that synthetic oil cost more, but you can potentially triple the mileage between oil changes.
And This IS300 or the future IS350 will have NOTHING on the 3 series. Stop making these stupid threads where you spew crap about some Nissan or Infinity, or Honda or ANYTHING that goes against the 3 series. Nothing will ever de-throne the 3 series. It has 20 years of Heritage behind it. Some new car model has squat - and that says something. Also the styling on the IS350 is quite Bland. You cant say that about the 3 series.
The BMW E90 330i will have roughly 255 horsepower. The Lexus IS350 will have somewhere near 315 horsepower. Enough said.
And there is still no evidence that Redzed even owns the vehicles he says he does :lol: Once again a bitter man (or child) trying to play with things he doesnt fully understand, and saying things that arent true.
I have no proof that you aren't a "bitter man (or child) trying to play with things he doesnt fully understand, and saying things that arent true."
Melee Penguin 02-21-2005, 07:03 PM The BMW E90 330i will have roughly 255 horsepower. The Lexus IS350 will have somewhere near 315 horsepower. Enough said.
This is true because a BMW is a BMW and a Lexus is an expensive Toyota. Once again, your point?
1fastdog 02-21-2005, 07:28 PM This is true because a BMW is a BMW and a Lexus is an expensive Toyota. Once again, your point?
Lexus wants to make a step into the hi-performance arena... they have to as they have zero reputation there at the present.
I'm more interested in the management shakeup at Toyota with another Toyoda family member hooking up on the board, and the wholesale walking papers much of the upper management has received this month.
Mr Watanabe, who will take over as president, is a very good bean counter. Reported to be very good at cost cutting and supply management, I'm sure we will see what this leads to.
Okuda is still chairman. I suppose one might see this change as bold to keep things lively, or a smackdown to keep under management quite scared.
91_z28_4me 02-22-2005, 08:18 AM Your Honda S2000 example should how little you know about where the industry is going. Honda is moving away from 8000rpm screamers and towards turbocharging. The S2000's engine is derived from unit that was found in the long dead Honda Prelude, the S2000 is its sole application and the
2. Every modern car that requires premium fuel also has a knock sensor, so if you put "regular" in the tank, you wouldn't have to worry about doing any damage - only decreased performance and fuel economy.
So Honda is just going to make FWD economy cars and extremely light duty trucks & SUVs, sounds about right.
On point two do you think that a person that buys a premium luxury car will cheap out on $.10 a gallon in their 'performance' sedan.
AronZ28 02-22-2005, 12:05 PM redzed, you have no credibility with this board. It doesn't suprise me that nobody believes you.
redzed 02-22-2005, 12:34 PM So Honda is just going to make FWD economy cars and extremely light duty trucks & SUVs, sounds about right.
The S2000 was always a stand-alone product, and didn't have much to do wit the rest of the Honda range - just like the NSX.
On point two do you think that a person that buys a premium luxury car will cheap out on $.10 a gallon in their 'performance' sedan.
I was just responding to someone who apparently had never heard of a knock sensor. Personally, I don't think many luxury car buyers will use low octane fuel, but you never know.
redzed 02-22-2005, 12:47 PM This is true because a BMW is a BMW and a Lexus is an expensive Toyota. Once again, your point?
My point is that BMW can't touch Lexus when it comes to reliability, which was never very important because cars like the IS300 didn't have any performance credibility. Compared to the outgoing E46 3-series, the Lexus IS300 always felt undersized, dull and underpowered. (The IS300's lack of acceleration was strange because there shouldn't have been much difference between the 215 horsepower Lexus and a 225 horsepower BMW 330i. For some reason, BMW always manages to get the most out of fairly modest stated outputs.)
The IS350 is product that can potential put Lexus on an equal footing with BMW in the near-luxury market. Assuming that the IS350 can combine IS300 pricing levels (low $30Ks) with Infiniti G35 levels of spaciousness and can retain traditional Lexus levels of refinement, this could easily be the best car in the 3-series segment.
redzed 02-22-2005, 01:00 PM Lexus wants to make a step into the hi-performance arena... they have to as they have zero reputation there at the present.
One product can give a company a reputation for producing performance cars. Lexus has produced cars with top-notch reliability and durability from day one (a position that's far more favorable than Chrysler's before the introduction of the Chrysler 300C). Now that Toyota is finally pulling ahead on the powertrain side of the equation, and between the new 3.5 liter V6 and the upcoming 5.0 liter V8, Lexus has the raw material to pull ahead of BMW in performance credibility.
1fastdog 02-22-2005, 03:00 PM One product can give a company a reputation for producing performance cars. Lexus has produced cars with top-notch reliability and durability from day one (a position that's far more favorable than Chrysler's before the introduction of the Chrysler 300C). Now that Toyota is finally pulling ahead on the powertrain side of the equation, and between the new 3.5 liter V6 and the upcoming 5.0 liter V8, Lexus has the raw material to pull ahead of BMW in performance credibility.
One product can help get folks interested but one or two products won't establish reputation. Chrysler has some performance heritage and we shouldn't forget that HEMI is an equity name based on 426 bigblock history, not smallblock badging.
I don't see BMW having powertrain reputation issues. Not everything they sell here is a big performer, but some intangibles play into their cars popularity. BMW's problems are styling based and some degree of their customer base is put off by the techno gadgetry some of the releases have been equipped with of late.
The lower range BMW's don't sell on high performance actually realized. Aside from the M series, the 3 isn't a stormer. 3's are good handlers, no mistake. They just aren't selling based on horsepower or roadtest numbers. Lexus has a long way to go to bump BMW in the engine department. BMW has proved over and over their ability to produce a powerhouse powerplant when needed. The 4 cylinder F1 turbo motor from 1980 was well over 1000hp output as but one little example.
I think Lexus needs something a bit more exciting designwise to appeal to that market. The have the money to take a shot, that's for certain.
Darth Xed 02-22-2005, 03:05 PM People say that Buick is bland in the styling department....
I don't see how Lexus styling is any better... they are the yawners of the luxury world.
1fastdog 02-22-2005, 03:28 PM People say that Buick is bland in the styling department....
I don't see how Lexus styling is any better... they are the yawners of the luxury world.
They 2 brands have similar appeal to their present customers. Luxo and incognito styling prescence.
redzed 02-22-2005, 03:49 PM People say that Buick is bland in the styling department....
I'd say that the LaCrosse and Lucerne have proven that Buick has gone from "bland" to a strange sort of "import copycat" school of design.
I don't see how Lexus styling is any better... they are the yawners of the luxury world.
The Lexus brand was never about styling. It was all about world class reliability, top drawer resale values and excellent dealer service. Now Lexus is adding class leading power to the mix.
redzed 02-22-2005, 04:01 PM They 2 brands have similar appeal to their present customers. Luxo and incognito styling prescence.
I'd say the Lexus customer base could be described as "middle-aged and affluent" whereas the target Buick buyer is "elderly and on a fixed income."
Darth Xed 02-22-2005, 04:05 PM I'd say the Lexus customer base could be described as "middle-aged and affluent" whereas the target Buick buyer is "elderly and on a fixed income."
I would agree with all that except the back handed "fixed income" statement.
It's no secret that Buick has one of the oldest, if not the oldest average buyer in the business right now.
But saying they are on a "fixed income" is nonsense. If this were the case, they'd either be buying a cheaper car than a Buick, or buying a used car... everyone, no matter how much or how little they make, needs to live within their means.
redzed 02-22-2005, 04:17 PM I would agree with all that except the back handed "fixed income" statement.
It's no secret that Buick has one of the oldest, if not the oldest average buyer in the business right now.
But saying they are on a "fixed income" is nonsense. If this were the case, they'd either be buying a cheaper car than a Buick, or buying a used car... everyone, no matter how much or how little they make, needs to live within their means.
Lexus is a successful luxury brand, Buick is a fading mass-market brand with very substantial fleet sales. I mean seriously, Buick sales peaked in the 1984 model year.:lol:
In the decade and a half since its launch, the Lexus brand has established itself as the equal to Mercedes and BMW in prestige. A Lexus is a symbol of success much like Rolex watch. A Buick is more of a Timex.
Anyone would be proud to own a Rolex, but while there's no shame in owning a Timex, there's no reason to be proud either.
Darth Xed 02-22-2005, 04:20 PM Lexus is a successful luxury brand, Buick is a fading mass-market brand with very substantial fleet sales. I mean seriously, Buick sales peaked in the 1984 model year.:lol:
In the decade and a half since its launch, the Lexus brand has established itself as the equal to Mercedes and BMW in prestige. A Lexus is a symbol of success much like Rolex watch. A Buick is more of a Timex.
Anyone would be proud to own a Rolex, but while there's no shame in owning a Timex, there's no reason to be proud either.
I agree with the general premise of what you are saying... however, that doesn't mean that the typical Buick buyer is on a "fixed income"..
I'd also argue your statement of Lexus being the equal of BMW and/or Mercedes as far as the prestige factor goes.
redzed 02-22-2005, 04:39 PM I agree with the general premise of what you are saying... however, that doesn't mean that the typical Buick buyer is on a "fixed income"..
I think you're having a hard time accepting that Buick is no more of a "prestige" brand than any of the Korean makes.
I'd also argue your statement of Lexus being the equal of BMW and/or Mercedes as far as the prestige factor goes.
If you were talking about European markets where Lexus is a relative newcomer as a standalone luxury brand, I'd say you'd have an arguement, but in the United States the Lexus brand is strong and growing stronger.
1fastdog 02-22-2005, 04:44 PM I'd say the Lexus customer base could be described as "middle-aged and affluent" whereas the target Buick buyer is "elderly and on a fixed income."
Age bracket? Yes. Expectations in styling...pretty much the same.
Darth Xed 02-22-2005, 04:55 PM I think you're having a hard time accepting that Buick is no more of a "prestige" brand than any of the Korean makes.
Again, in typical fashion, you dance around the point at hand.
I am not saying that Buick is on the same level as Lexus... not even by a long shot, though I think it is a doable thing over time...
Again, the point is... saying Buick buyers are typically on "fixed income" is a baseless and ignorant statement. This has nothing to do with any level of prestige that a car line may or may not have.
If you were talking about European markets where Lexus is a relative newcomer as a standalone luxury brand, I'd say you'd have an arguement, but in the United States the Lexus brand is strong and growing stronger.
The way I see it, BMW and Mercedes are on top of the prestige heap... Cadillac is on the next rung by themselves (rung 1 1/2 if you will)...and moving up fast. Lexus and Acura and Infiniti are on the next rung down.
redzed 02-22-2005, 05:22 PM Age bracket? Yes. Expectations in styling...pretty much the same.
I somehow doubt that potential Lexus buyers are looking for styling that features fake "portholes.":lol:
A Buick is a rental cars, a Lexus is a luxury car.
redzed 02-22-2005, 05:35 PM Again, in typical fashion, you dance around the point at hand.
I am not saying that Buick is on the same level as Lexus... not even by a long shot, though I think it is a doable thing over time...
I'd say Buick's fate is to become the next Oldsmobile.
Again, the point is... saying Buick buyers are typically on "fixed income" is a baseless and ignorant statement. This has nothing to do with any level of prestige that a car line may or may not have.
I see plenty of senior citizens of modest means driving new Buicks, but I don't see many people matching that description driving a new Lexus.
The way I see it, BMW and Mercedes are on top of the prestige heap... Cadillac is on the next rung by themselves (rung 1 1/2 if you will)...and moving up fast. Lexus and Acura and Infiniti are on the next rung down.
I surprised you didn't put Pontiac:lol: right up there with BMW:lol::lol:
muckz 02-22-2005, 05:46 PM 2. Every modern car that requires premium fuel also has a knock sensor, so if you put "regular" in the tank, you wouldn't have to worry about doing any damage - only decreased performance and fuel economy.
Well, try riding a car with CR 11.0:1 on a hot day in bumper to bumper traffic that is filled up with 87 octane gas. No, performance is not the only thing you will sacrifice - extended use will put excessive wear and tear on the engine, and you can most certainly do damage. If everything was as simple as the knock sensor, there would be no need to remind customers to put premium fuel.
The BMW E90 330i will have roughly 255 horsepower. The Lexus IS350 will have somewhere near 315 horsepower. Enough said.
The thing with BMWs is that they run 1/4 mi much better than one would expect based on the HP numbers alone. Even current 225HP 330 series runs in low 14's - they somehow perform quicker than they ought to. I would not be surprised at all if these cars were very close, within .2 seconds of each other.
muckz 02-22-2005, 05:49 PM My point is that BMW can't touch Lexus when it comes to reliability, which was never very important because cars like the IS300 didn't have any performance credibility. Compared to the outgoing E46 3-series, the Lexus IS300 always felt undersized, dull and underpowered. (The IS300's lack of acceleration was strange because there shouldn't have been much difference between the 215 horsepower Lexus and a 225 horsepower BMW 330i. For some reason, BMW always manages to get the most out of fairly modest stated outputs.)
The IS350 is product that can potential put Lexus on an equal footing with BMW in the near-luxury market. Assuming that the IS350 can combine IS300 pricing levels (low $30Ks) with Infiniti G35 levels of spaciousness and can retain traditional Lexus levels of refinement, this could easily be the best car in the 3-series segment.
Well, as long as Lexus will offer two models (250 and 350), I don't think it will be 30K. For the base IS250 one, yes, maybe even a little under, but for the IS350 - I expect it to be in mid 30's to upper 30's.
I never thought current 215HP IS300 to be underpowered, it is a rather quick car that can do 1/4 mi in 15 flat, but I was always amazed by BMWs and their mid to low 14s.
Meccadeth 02-22-2005, 05:56 PM For once, I completely agree with RedZed....all this does is show even more that GM's horrendous V6 family is terribley out-dated against the competition. Where is GM's 300 HP V6? Do they even have on close to that yet? Much less planned on being in a production car? Thank god they have the godly V8's to fall back on, now if they could just advertise them more...
1fastdog 02-22-2005, 06:06 PM I somehow doubt that potential Lexus buyers are looking for styling that features fake "portholes.":lol:
A Buick is a rental cars, a Lexus is a luxury car.
Portholes? No probably not. What they do not look for is standout styling. Lexus are primarily nondescript on the exterior. The buyer's consider this a plus, not a negative.
When Lexus has gone for something further reaching it has been, to me, a bit strange, and glued together looking, Absolutely Asian. It may appeal to some. Me it leaves cold.
The predominant styling they have now is Camry meets 80's Mercedes. It's working for them. Not the sort of stuff that got BMW into the position of the market place they hold at this point.
Lexus needs to win some races if they intend to kick BMW around. There's more than luxury driving buyers in this segment.
YMMV.
Meccadeth 02-22-2005, 06:43 PM Thats odd...I really like the styling of all these new Lexus's. I don't see anything boring about them, especially compared to the competition (coughcough=mercedescough)
1fastdog 02-22-2005, 08:09 PM Thats odd...I really like the styling of all these new Lexus's. I don't see anything boring about them, especially compared to the competition (coughcough=mercedescough)
:lol:
We're talking about a $30K Lexus and the 400hp CTS-V cost well over $50K(!) and has the crudest drivetrain in the luxury segment.
Since when is $51K well over $50K?????? :confused: find me a $30,000 300HP Lexus.... guess what you can't. the 300HP version will cost over $40K. Do you even research anything before you post?
If you can't afford premium fuel, you probably can't afford a Lexus. Go to a Chevy dealer and buy a Daewoo-built Aveo.
I don't know if you realize this but the Chevy Camaro uses premium too. You are comparing apples to oranges. Caddy puts out XXX on 87 Lexus XXX on 93, now what happens when you put 87 in that Lexus, all of a sudden it doesn’t perform as well as the 3.6L Caddy V6.
Japanese companies have been using kind of a bate and switch marketing scam with there engines. Notice how they have all jumped up in HP in just the last few years, but they all require premium to run at that advertised HP. Nissan Titan requires 91+ for its DOHC 5.6L to make its 305HP, while Chevy’s 5.3L makes 310HP on 87 all with less displacement and half the valves.
Your Honda S2000 example should how little you know about where the industry is going. Honda is moving away from 8000rpm screamers and towards turbocharging. The S2000's engine is derived from unit that was found in the long dead Honda Prelude, the S2000 is its sole application and the S2000 is going bye-bye before too long.
...and you want to talk about vapor-ware
WJH'sFormula 02-23-2005, 11:42 AM This premium fuel argument is absurd. My little turd of a 7 year old Ford takes premium fuel. So what; instead of costing me $23 to fill up, it costs $25. As long as I can get it at the pump, I don't really care what octane fuel my car takes. Some of the statements on here are really making me laugh.
I don't know if you realize this but the Chevy Camaro uses premium too. You are comparing apples to oranges. Caddy puts out XXX on 87 Lexus XXX on 93, now what happens when you put 87 in that Lexus, all of a sudden it doesn’t perform as well as the 3.6L Caddy V6.
C'mon. There's not a chance in an icey cold hell that a 315 hp Lexus engine would drop that drastically, not even close. What does the Caddy put out? 250? 260? Are you suggesting that the Lexus would drop 20% of its power due soley to reliance on premium, which as has been said, is defined as 91+, not necessarily 93?
And in reference to the comment about the CTSv's drivetrain ~ The T56 is a rude, rough, sloppy transmission for a Camaro, let alone a $50k Caddy. Drive a Viper and you'll wonder if the thing actually has syncros :lol: The upside to it is cost. It's a cheap transmission. Both in initial production and any subsequent maintenance or replacement. Talk to anyone w/ a 6spd C4 Vette and you'll see what I mean.
This premium fuel argument is absurd. My little turd of a 7 year old Ford takes premium fuel. So what; instead of costing me $23 to fill up, it costs $25. As long as I can get it at the pump, I don't really care what octane fuel my car takes. Some of the statements on here are really making me laugh.
C'mon. There's not a chance in an icey cold hell that a 315 hp Lexus engine would drop that drastically, not even close. What does the Caddy put out? 250? 260? Are you suggesting that the Lexus would drop 20% of its power due soley to reliance on premium, which as has been said, is defined as 91+, not necessarily 93?
And in reference to the comment about the CTSv's drivetrain ~ The T56 is a rude, rough, sloppy transmission for a Camaro, let alone a $50k Caddy. Drive a Viper and you'll wonder if the thing actually has syncros :lol: The upside to it is cost. It's a cheap transmission. Both in initial production and any subsequent maintenance or replacement. Talk to anyone w/ a 6spd C4 Vette and you'll see what I mean.
Most people just fill up with what is cheapest, and that is 87. I bet 90% of car owners don't read the manual and don't even know what octane is.
to get 300HP out of a 3.5L timing and compression need to be set high. The higher it is set, the more 87 chokes it off. Also more fuel = worse milage.
bottom line is that unless the Lexus can get better milage and put out more HP than the HF 3.6L V6 on 87 it is not a "superior" engine. lets not forget the torque curve. I drove a 333HP M3 while I owned a 320HP Camaro and the Camaro engine felt A LOT stronger, thanks to our old friend torque.
also, the T-56 used in the CTSv is not the same one used in the Camaro. It is MUCH smoother. same goes for the GTO & Vette T-56, very smooth.
WJH'sFormula 02-23-2005, 12:44 PM Eh, I don't really want to get into a pissing match over which engine is "superior". I was only bothered by the suggestion that because an engine requires premium, it is inferior. Only from my personal observation, most people who drive cars that require premium fuel know damn well what to put in the tank. Of course, I couldn't speak for the public in general but if I had to guess, the typical buyer of a more highly tuned vehicle would know which gas to put in. Only a guess.
It is the same basic transmission, and that basic transmission is hardly refined. Much like the old 700R4/4L60E which was used in several different applications from trucks to Corvettes; the T56 is used in a ton of different applications, most notably high(er) hp American RWD offerings. Aye, I've read that they've made changes to get shifts smoother in the Caddy and Goat, but it is still indeed the same basic Borg Warner/Tremec T56. I hope you're referencing C6 Vettes b/c the linkage in the C5 gives you a workout, hardly Viper stiff, but not accurately described as refined.
IMO, the ZF 6spd found in 89-96 Vettes is far more refined than the T56 derivatives albeit at significantly higher cost. Personally, I like the T56. It's a tried and true design that holds its own in some very high HP applications. It doesn't bother me that it's a relatively crude 6spd when compared with the competition, nature of the beast I suppose.
redzed 02-23-2005, 01:12 PM Well, as long as Lexus will offer two models (250 and 350), I don't think it will be 30K. For the base IS250 one, yes, maybe even a little under, but for the IS350 - I expect it to be in mid 30's to upper 30's.
The IS250 is a replacement for the Euro spec IS200 that never came to the USA. I'm not sure the U.S. is getting this model, but it does make some sense in Europe and a whole lot of sense in Japan. In Japan, Nissan has 2.5 liter 215hp versions of the Infiniti G35 (Nissan Skyline) and the Infiniti M-series (Nissan Fugo), so the 2.5 liter Toyota Altezza (aka Lexus IS250) will make tremendous sense.
I never thought current 215HP IS300 to be underpowered, it is a rather quick car that can do 1/4 mi in 15 flat, but I was always amazed by BMWs and their mid to low 14s.
I've always wondered why BMWs seem to be quicker than they should be for the indicated power-to-weight ratio. Part of it comes down to well chosen gearing, but there's still an element of mystery to me.
96_Camaro_B4C 02-23-2005, 01:22 PM I've always wondered why BMWs seem to be quicker than they should be for the indicated power-to-weight ratio. Part of it comes down to well chosen gearing, but there's still an element of mystery to me.I too have wondered about this for years and years. It seems to be primarily with their bread-and-butter six cylinder engines, too, though their V8s aren't exactly slouches relative to their rated power. I always thought the ~225 hp 330i (or the 328 or the 189 hp 325 prior to that) seemed too quick for their engines. They always were among the quickest in a given test, even if Infinity or Acura (260 hp 3.2CL Type S, for example) had much more power on paper.
Of course, it can go the other way, too. Take the 3.5L Chrysler 300, which supposedly makes 250 hp, yet it gets demolished by the "only" 255 hp CTS (indeed, the N/A 200 hp 3800 in the W-cars runs right with the 250 hp 3.5L in the 300/Magnum). *shrug*
Z28Wilson 02-23-2005, 01:28 PM Of course, it can go the other way, too. Take the 3.5L Chrysler 300, which supposedly makes 250 hp, yet it gets demolished by the "only" 255 hp CTS (indeed, the N/A 200 hp 3800 in the W-cars runs right with the 250 hp 3.5L in the 300/Magnum). *shrug*
The LX cars are pretty heavy, I believe the 300C is 4100 pounds. Cut a couple hundred off when you substitute the Hemi for the 6, but you're probably still quite a bit heavier than a GM Sigma car.
96_Camaro_B4C 02-23-2005, 01:42 PM The LX cars are pretty heavy, I believe the 300C is 4100 pounds. Cut a couple hundred off when you substitute the Hemi for the 6, but you're probably still quite a bit heavier than a GM Sigma car.Road&Track Data (http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0406_sedans_data.pdf.pdf)
Weight will partially account for the N/A Impala LS keeping up (I think they are around 3500 lb empty), but in the test above, the LX weights were close:
300 = 3860 empty / 4040 driver
CTS = 3730 empty / 3910 driver
So the CTS was 130 lbs lighter and has (on paper) only 5 more horsepower. That translated into 1.4 seconds to 60 and over a second / 4.7 mph in the quarter... Only the awd Audi was heavier than these two, and not by a lot. The other cars were a little lighter than the CTS, yet only the turbocharged Volvo (268 hp) really came close (and in fact had a higher trap speed).
Anyway, not trying to divert back to this comparison test (it has already been discussed in this forum), but just pointing out that this 3.5L doesn't seem to keep up with other engines of similar power...it seems like I remember this being the case even when it was in the FWD LH cars (300M, Intrepid R/T, etc.).
*shrug*
EDIT: One significant factor could be the 4 speed auto in the 300. The CTS has a 5 speed (as does the 300C "hemi"). But still, the similarly sized Pontiac Bonneville can probably keep up with the 300 in N/A trim, and certainly can in 240 hp S/C 3800 trim. Also with a 4 speed auto...
redzed 02-23-2005, 01:48 PM Since when is $51K well over $50K?????? :confused: find me a $30,000 300HP Lexus.... guess what you can't.
We're talking about the upcoming Lexus IS350, not the leftover last generation car you'd find on Lexus lot currently. Do you understand the concept of a new car introduction?
the 300HP version will cost over $40K. Do you even research anything before you post?
I hate to break it to you, but the Lexus is going to be competitive with a $31K Infiniti G35 w/leather.
I don't know if you realize this but the Chevy Camaro uses premium too. You are comparing apples to oranges. Caddy puts out XXX on 87 Lexus XXX on 93, now what happens when you put 87 in that Lexus, all of a sudden it doesn’t perform as well as the 3.6L Caddy V6.
1. I've always filled my LS-1 with 93 octane.
2. Why would someone driving a Lexus fill their tank with 87 octane? Of course, why would 87 octane fill-ups be important to someone who's spent $40K on a Cadillac? If you can afford to buy a prestige brand, the difference between regular and premium gas is economically irrelevent.
Japanese companies have been using kind of a bate and switch marketing scam with there engines. Notice how they have all jumped up in HP in just the last few years, but they all require premium to run at that advertised HP. Nissan Titan requires 91+ for its DOHC 5.6L to make its 305HP, while Chevy’s 5.3L makes 310HP on 87 all with less displacement and half the valves.
...and you want to talk about vapor-ware
No, the Nissan Titan and Armada DON'T REQUIRE PREMIUM FUEL.
My 5.6 liter Nissan Armada requires only 87 octane, but still puts out more torque (385lb/ft!) than the premium burning 6.0 liter Cadillac Escalade (380lb/ft) and Silverado SS.
The weak and wimpy 5.3 liter "small block" (emphasis on "small" :lol: ) puts out 295-300 horsepower and 325-330lb/ft of torque - 5 to 10 horsepower less and 55 to 60 lb/ft of torque less that the mighty, mighty Nissan 5.6 liter in Redzed's ride.
http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodinfo/powertrain/specs/05_truck_engine_specs.html#lm7
redzed 02-23-2005, 01:58 PM And in reference to the comment about the CTSv's drivetrain ~ The T56 is a rude, rough, sloppy transmission for a Camaro, let alone a $50k Caddy. Drive a Viper and you'll wonder if the thing actually has syncros :lol: The upside to it is cost. It's a cheap transmission. Both in initial production and any subsequent maintenance or replacement. Talk to anyone w/ a 6spd C4 Vette and you'll see what I mean.
1. The T-56 would have never found its way into a Cadillac if GM Powertrain had been able to offer a suitable automatic transmission. With the coming of the 6L80E, the T-56 will be eventually be dropped from the CTS-V.
2. The 6-speed ZF unit was very pricey. Other than the C4 Corvette the only other cars that used it were European exotics like the supercharged Aston Martin Vantage - a 550hp car that never made it to the USA.
Still, GM had no choice other than the ZF gearbox at the time. I mean seriously, the "Doug Nash 4+3" manual was a very bad joke.
redzed 02-23-2005, 02:10 PM Road&Track Data (http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0406_sedans_data.pdf.pdf)
Weight will partially account for the N/A Impala LS keeping up (I think they are around 3500 lb empty), but in the test above, the LX weights were close:
300 = 3860 empty / 4040 driver
CTS = 3730 empty / 3910 driver
So the CTS was 130 lbs lighter and has (on paper) only 5 more horsepower. That translated into 1.4 seconds to 60 and over a second / 4.7 mph in the quarter... Only the awd Audi was heavier than these two, and not by a lot. The other cars were a little lighter than the CTS, yet only the turbocharged Volvo (268 hp) really came close (and in fact had a higher trap speed).
Anyway, not trying to divert back to this comparison test (it has already been discussed in this forum), but just pointing out that this 3.5L doesn't seem to keep up with other engines of similar power...it seems like I remember this being the case even when it was in the FWD LH cars (300M, Intrepid R/T, etc.).
*shrug*
EDIT: One significant factor could be the 4 speed auto in the 300. The CTS has a 5 speed (as does the 300C "hemi"). But still, the similarly sized Pontiac Bonneville can probably keep up with the 300 in N/A trim, and certainly can in 240 hp S/C 3800 trim. Also with a 4 speed auto...
The Chrysler 300 is a larger, more spacious car than the CTS so you'd expect it to be heavier (although a weight comparison between the iron block HEMI 300C/SRT-8 and the alluminum block LS-6 CTS-V is far closer). You also have to remember the tired old 4-speed slushbox and the never-very-impressive SOHC 3.5 liter really hold the 300 back.
I hate to say it, but the V6-engined Chrysler 300s don't have the right powertrains to be described as luxury or even near-luxury cars. Having said that, we should remember that the 2.7 liter V6 is going away soon and the 3.5 liter/4-speed will be replaced by something far better sooner than you think.
Darth Xed 02-23-2005, 02:23 PM 1. I've always filled my LS-1 with 93 octane.
Umm.... oups!!!
I thought you had a 1996 Z28???
:lol:
Boy, your credibility is just TOTALLY gone. :lol:
MissedShift 02-23-2005, 02:25 PM ...and the 3.5 liter/4-speed will be replaced by something far better sooner than you think.
Hearing things like that from redzed makes me think DCX just signed a big deal with Nissan for engines and trannys...
WJH'sFormula 02-23-2005, 02:38 PM The 6-speed ZF unit was very pricey.
I know. That's what I said; it was really slick gearbox, just too expensive.
Bad joke doesn't begin to describe the 4+3.
I'm not sure if you were agreeing with me or refuting me... :confused:
redzed 02-23-2005, 03:01 PM Umm.... oups!!!
I thought you had a 1996 Z28???
:lol:
Boy, your credibility is just TOTALLY gone. :lol:
I've always said I have a LS-1 Camaro. If you don't know what that means its your problem.
Darth Xed 02-23-2005, 03:04 PM I've always said I have a LS-1 Camaro. If you don't know what that means its your problem.
Riiiiiight.
Hey, how about a picture of your Z28 and your Armada?
:lol:
redzed 02-23-2005, 03:07 PM I know. That's what I said; it was really slick gearbox, just too expensive.
Bad joke doesn't begin to describe the 4+3.
I'm not sure if you were agreeing with me or refuting me... :confused:
I was agreeing and adding a bit about how tough the ZF box was - the Virage based Aston Martin Vantage was a real beast when it came to torque.
Personally, I think that GM's decision to put the ZF gearbox in all C4s - not just the ZR-1 - saved the Corvette. If GM had persisted with the 4+3, I doubt that we ever would have seen a C5 Corvette.
Geoff Chadwick 02-23-2005, 04:06 PM My points have been made. Power isnt everything, so having 100hp more then a 3 series wont just knock it off the top of the ladder. Sorry. The years of 3 series excellence give it a mile long head start. A high power IS350 with apparently ravenous loads of HP (I still dont see much past 300 myself, I dont know why... maybe it's the fact that the Avalon engine with 280hp ISNT de-tuned to the tune of over 20hp and you're just blowing smoke again) You say I have no proof. I dont. I'm looking at what we know and speculating. You're saying That's right, the Lexus IS350 is going to have at least 300 horsepower. YOU have no proof. You're guessing.
People who have no clue and dont even read the manual (many buyers) shove in 87 octane.
People who have a clue, when they mean premium, they get the best. For me, that's ALWAYS 93 octane or if I spot it - 94 or 95. Here, 87 octane is 1.99. 93 Octane is about 2.29... On a 16 gallon tank thats $5/fill or roughly $250 a year. Not much, no, but it is an added cost.
91 Octane on an LT1 camaro will knock on the highway. It will even knock on 93.
Knocking pulls timing. Dropping from 91 Octane to 87 can make a HUGE difference. Take an lt1, put on a 8psi vortech, and tune it to run on 91 octane. Swap in 87. See how long it lasts. 10% loss in output can easily happen from a few degrees timing. On a really bad day (where it would lightly knock with 91 even) you'd see 15% losses. These times when you suffer the most is on the highway with low rpm and high load. Thats why if you have a clue and care about your baby, you put in 93 octane. Sorry. You too seem to do that too - but if you dont need to - why? You're breaking your own definition, so you might as well stuff it. And yes, you CAN damage your engine running 87 octane on a 91 engine, even when it's stock. Knock sensors arent a "save-all".
Funny that I see a lot of gas stations only keeping 87 and 93 octanes..... Nobody seems to complain, and when they have 91, it rarely gets used....
The 4+3 was a sad sad idea. The ZF was a very good unit. Too expensive, but we all know this already.
Also odd that my T56 with a good cleaning, flush and refill with great fluid is buttery smooth, even at 150,000 miles of use. And by "buttery smooth" I mean it's as smooth to use as the transmission in an M5, which I'd consider to be a good benchmark. If I put in crappy fluid I wouldnt get the same...
Lexus doesnt have the prestige that BMW and Mercedes have. It's biggest flaw is that it's only a rebadged Toyota, and that will ALWAYS bring it's prestige down. Sure it's got better interiors, seats, toys etc. But underneath it all, its still a toyota. BMW's are BMW's.
This goes by the same fact that Cadillac was supposed to get it's own unique Chassis to set it apart...
Lexus dealers consider BMW and Mercedes competition. Oddly that BMW doesnt care about Lexus, and Mercedes doesnt really care either. It's Japanese vs European, and that has something in the human mind that we will never understand...
And we still have no proof that you own what you say you own, and you continue to bash American cars all day long, misquote your facts and figures, and pull stuff straight out of thin air.
The CTS-V's driveline I have no beef with. The Suspension I dislike.
You think theres no market for I6's or I5's as replacements for v6's and v8's? Are you sure? I coulda sworn I see I5's and I6's all over the place with certain car brands.... Inline engines have advantages over v engines that cannot be denied.
The "High Value" family should never have happened to begin with. I could care less if its a "cheap engine to build."
Oh, and what up with the "$100 oil change" nonsense. Everyone knows that synthetic oil cost more, but you can potentially triple the mileage between oil changes.
Why should high value have never happened? Lets hear your impressive logic thats better then teams of engineers and researchers. And find people that use synthetic oil. Ask them how long they run their oil. Most STILL dont run over 5000 miles. Most still change at 3000. Because if you use synthetic, you care. If you care, you dont risk it. You also throw in 93 octane...
The BMW E90 330i will have roughly 255 horsepower. The Lexus IS350 will have somewhere near 315 horsepower. Enough said.
Where? Where are you getting this from? I dont see any proof to any of this!
You come in here and say things acting like they are true, then demand we prove YOU wrong. We dont have to. YOU have to prove YOU are right. Thats the whole concept of logic... or do you not understand that?
I didnt think so.
People who have no clue and dont even read the manual (many buyers) shove in 87 octane.
People who have a clue, when they mean premium, they get the best. For me, that's ALWAYS 93 octane or if I spot it - 94 or 95. Here, 87 octane is 1.99. 93 Octane is about 2.29... On a 16 gallon tank thats $5/fill or roughly $250 a year. Not much, no, but it is an added cost.
91 Octane on an LT1 camaro will knock on the highway. It will even knock on 93.
Knocking pulls timing. Dropping from 91 Octane to 87 can make a HUGE difference. Take an lt1, put on a 8psi vortech, and tune it to run on 91 octane. Swap in 87. See how long it lasts. 10% loss in output can easily happen from a few degrees timing. On a really bad day (where it would lightly knock with 91 even) you'd see 15% losses. These times when you suffer the most is on the highway with low rpm and high load. Thats why if you have a clue and care about your baby, you put in 93 octane. Sorry. You too seem to do that too - but if you dont need to - why? You're breaking your own definition, so you might as well stuff it. And yes, you CAN damage your engine running 87 octane on a 91 engine, even when it's stock. Knock sensors arent a "save-all".
Funny that I see a lot of gas stations only keeping 87 and 93 octanes..... Nobody seems to complain, and when they have 91, it rarely gets used....
Thank you, glad someone sees the point. It isn't that people can't afford 93, it that the don't care to read the manual an see what fuel they need. There are many many many articles on the internet about how when gas prices go up, premium sales go down.
Comparing HP/L is for magazine racers and ricers. Things like Compression, the HP's RPM, and torque need to be looked at.
redzed 02-23-2005, 05:21 PM My points have been made. Power isnt everything, so having 100hp more then a 3 series wont just knock it off the top of the ladder. Sorry. The years of 3 series excellence give it a mile long head start. A high power IS350 with apparently ravenous loads of HP (I still dont see much past 300 myself, I dont know why... maybe it's the fact that the Avalon engine with 280hp ISNT de-tuned to the tune of over 20hp and you're just blowing smoke again) You say I have no proof. I dont. I'm looking at what we know and speculating. You're saying YOU have no proof. You're guessing.
On March 3rd you can just eat your words.:lol:
People who have no clue and dont even read the manual (many buyers) shove in 87 octane.
I'll bet that Lexus buyers aren't as prone to "not reading the manual" the poor slobs in Aveos.
People who have a clue, when they mean premium, they get the best. For me, that's ALWAYS 93 octane or if I spot it - 94 or 95. Here, 87 octane is 1.99. 93 Octane is about 2.29... On a 16 gallon tank thats $5/fill or roughly $250 a year. Not much, no, but it is an added cost.
91 Octane on an LT1 camaro will knock on the highway. It will even knock on 93.
Knocking pulls timing. Dropping from 91 Octane to 87 can make a HUGE difference. Take an lt1, put on a 8psi vortech, and tune it to run on 91 octane. Swap in 87. See how long it lasts. 10% loss in output can easily happen from a few degrees timing. On a really bad day (where it would lightly knock with 91 even) you'd see 15% losses. These times when you suffer the most is on the highway with low rpm and high load. Thats why if you have a clue and care about your baby, you put in 93 octane. Sorry. You too seem to do that too - but if you dont need to - why? You're breaking your own definition, so you might as well stuff it. And yes, you CAN damage your engine running 87 octane on a 91 engine, even when it's stock. Knock sensors arent a "save-all".
Funny that I see a lot of gas stations only keeping 87 and 93 octanes..... Nobody seems to complain, and when they have 91, it rarely gets used....
Bad things happen when you bolt on a supercharger. If you're applying boost to an engine that wasn't designed to take boost, you might as well use 104 octane AVGAS or super-secret-rocketfuel. Bad things happen when you bolt on a supercharger.
For sane people who don't feel the need to re-engineer their brand new car, a high compression engine that takes 91-octane-or-better isn't a liability - it's a cheap and easy way to gain reliable factory performance and maybe even fuel economy.
Also odd that my T56 with a good cleaning, flush and refill with great fluid is buttery smooth, even at 150,000 miles of use. And by "buttery smooth" I mean it's as smooth to use as the transmission in an M5, which I'd consider to be a good benchmark. If I put in crappy fluid I wouldnt get the same...
The fact remains that the tranny in your 10 year old F-body is just about the same unit as one that's found in a $52K Cadillac.
Lexus doesnt have the prestige that BMW and Mercedes have. It's biggest flaw is that it's only a rebadged Toyota, and that will ALWAYS bring it's prestige down. Sure it's got better interiors, seats, toys etc. But underneath it all, its still a toyota. BMW's are BMW's.
Yeah, and Mercedes are used as taxis in Germany. I could care less if the Lexus LS430 is only a "Toyota Celsior" in Japan or if a GS350 is an "Aristo." I don't live in Japan.
This goes by the same fact that Cadillac was supposed to get it's own unique Chassis to set it apart...
...And that chassis wasn't supposed to be "unique" until it proved to be too expensive to produce and too inflexible.
Lexus dealers consider BMW and Mercedes competition. Oddly that BMW doesnt care about Lexus, and Mercedes doesnt really care either. It's Japanese vs European, and that has something in the human mind that we will never understand...
Lexus has been keeping Mercedes and BMW "on their toes" ever since the original LS400 dropped.
And we still have no proof that you own what you say you own, and you continue to bash American cars all day long, misquote your facts and figures, and pull stuff straight out of thin air.
I could care less what you believe, I only "bash" American cars that are mediocre, I get the facts and figures straight - more than most of the posters around here.
You think theres no market for I6's or I5's as replacements for v6's and v8's? Are you sure? I coulda sworn I see I5's and I6's all over the place with certain car brands.... Inline engines have advantages over v engines that cannot be denied.
"Inline engines have advantages over v engines that cannot be denied," but I can't find many of those advantages in GM's Vortec Inline series. The 4.2 liter Inline-6 is a less torquey alternative to Toyota and Nissan's 4.0 liter V6s and the 3.5 liter inline-5 is utterly pitiful in both horsepower and torque.
Why should high value have never happened? Lets hear your impressive logic thats better then teams of engineers and researchers. And find people that use synthetic oil. Ask them how long they run their oil. Most STILL dont run over 5000 miles. Most still change at 3000. Because if you use synthetic, you care. If you care, you dont risk it. You also throw in 93 octane...
1. The High Value lacks the refinement and output of a modern passenger car engine. There's a reason why GM will soon be the very last manufacturer to be pushing the pushrod V6.
2. Longer oil change intervals with synthetic oil are a reality. Deal with it.
Where? Where are you getting this from? I dont see any proof to any of this!
You come in here and say things acting like they are true, then demand we prove YOU wrong. We dont have to. YOU have to prove YOU are right. Thats the whole concept of logic... or do you not understand that?
I didnt think so.
You really don't have a clue? The launch for the new IS350 is March 3rd. Will Lord Geoff of Chawick admit his error when faced with actual vehicle? Nah.
1fastdog 02-24-2005, 09:44 AM 1. The High Value lacks the refinement and output of a modern passenger car engine. There's a reason why GM will soon be the very last manufacturer to be pushing the pushrod V6.
However the owners of pushrod motors need not learn how the words "timing belt", "60k miles" and "interference fit" are related if you ignore either of the first two ...
Gold_Rush 02-24-2005, 11:39 AM My points have been made. Power isnt everything, so having 100hp more then a 3 series wont just knock it off the top of the ladder. Sorry. The years of 3 series excellence give it a mile long head start.
Lexus doesnt have the prestige that BMW and Mercedes have. It's biggest flaw is that it's only a rebadged Toyota, and that will ALWAYS bring it's prestige down. Sure it's got better interiors, seats, toys etc. But underneath it all, its still a toyota. BMW's are BMW's.
Lexus dealers consider BMW and Mercedes competition. Oddly that BMW doesnt care about Lexus, and Mercedes doesnt really care either.
Gotta give Lexus atleast a shred of credit man:D. Their vehicles are top notch, continuously rank #1 in terms of quality, satisfaction, and refinement (NO BMW or MB in #1 slots there), and despite them being rebadged Toyota's (Badged as Lexus in America), they have a pretty good reputation in the prestige department here. They're still fairly young, but they've already come a long ways. Maybe not BMW or MB prestige, but definitely up there. I think the new GS 430, the upcoming 500hp v10 supercar, and this new IS350 are all steps in the right direction for them as far as establishing themselves as a world class luxury brand as well as increasing the prestige of the their brand as a whole. I personally like the fact that they are innovative. Where else are you going to find a mid-sized luxury SUV that gets a combined fuel economy average of 28mpg while still putting up 0-60mph figures in the low 7's? They're doing alot to impress me personally.
Btw: I'd hope MB and BMW would take Lexus seriously. Year in and year out, they're the best selling luxury brand in the U.S market. Every one of those sales could have been potential BMW and MB sales regardless of what MB and BMW dealers think. I'd think that they'd take a market sales leader a bit more seriously, but i guess not. Typical stuck up Euro's :p.
On a side note, i wouldn't be surprised if it had an output around 300hp. It's been done before. Acura with the 3.5L RL and 3.2L NSX, BMW with their 3.3L I-6 in the M3, Porsche with their line of N/A flat 6's (380hp N/A 3.6L in GT3), and Nissan with their Vq 3.5L engines. So it's definitly doable by todays standards. But i can understand your skepticism. Toyota was never about big power (except Supra TT), and their cars have never historically been in the leading pack as far as output. But hey, things just might be changing within Toyota. After all, they are putting out a 500hp 5.0L v10 supercar. Guess we'll see sooner or later.
Why would the IS get a 300HP+ V6 when the new GS430 only has 300HP and that is a V8? so now Lexus is going to offer a 300-315hp V6 and a 300HP V8? why would they do that? that makes there V8 look lame.
redzed 02-25-2005, 05:30 PM Why would the IS get a 300HP+ V6 when the new GS430 only has 300HP and that is a V8? so now Lexus is going to offer a 300-315hp V6 and a 300HP V8? why would they do that? that makes there V8 look lame.
The 4.3 liter V8 is on its way out. The engine in the new GS430 is a carried over unit, while the introduction of the new V8 will come with the next-generation Lexus LS. That's why I keep refering to the Lexus LS500.:)
MunchE 02-25-2005, 10:29 PM The thing with BMWs is that they run 1/4 mi much better than one would expect based on the HP numbers alone. Even current 225HP 330 series runs in low 14's - they somehow perform quicker than they ought to. I would not be surprised at all if these cars were very close, within .2 seconds of each other.
The IS300, on the other hand, is only .2 faster than my Scion tC (4 banger!) in the 1/4
The 4.3 liter V8 is on its way out. The engine in the new GS430 is a carried over unit, while the introduction of the new V8 will come with the next-generation Lexus LS. That's why I keep refering to the Lexus LS500.:)
but I thought you didn't talk about "what-if" or "hypothetical" or unreleased engines like the 3.8L DOHC HF or H.O. 3.6L HF like found in the G6 GXP concept?
remember this:We're talking about a actual, realLexus that's going on sale this year , not a future "what-if" GM engine that only exists in your mind.
It is going to take more than HP to de-thrown BMW 3 series, and even then Lexus falls short. 330i > IS250 , 333HP 3.2L > 280-300hp Lexus 3.5L. Also the 3/4 series is getting a 380HP+ V8
WJH'sFormula 02-26-2005, 10:11 AM However the owners of pushrod motors need not learn how the words "timing belt", "60k miles" and "interference fit" are related if you ignore either of the first two ...
For what it's worth, the 2.5 liter duratec in my car uses timing chains as opposed to belts :)
94_Z28_ragtop 02-26-2005, 12:16 PM redzed - I got news for you. Toyota is not the beginning and end of actual quality or reliability. They merely are at the top of the heap for perceived quality. In case you don't know what "perceived" quality is, that's where something looks and feels high quality even in when reality it may be a gigantic pile of sh!t. There are volumes and volumes of documentation related to the engine sludge problem on 1997 - 2002 2.2L 4 cyl. and 3.0L 6 cyl. made by the love of your life, Toyota. Toyota went out of their way to blame it on everyone and everything but themselves and their design including turning down engine replacement in vehicles that were still under warranty. Shades of Mitsubishi Fuso perhaps??? Nice customer service! :rolleyes: When the problem initially started arising in vehicles that were less than 2 years old and had less than 30K (even 20K!) miles, they finally were forced into issuing an extended warranty on the engines. Only reason there was no recall is because it wasn't deemed a "safety" issue. It's even recommended if you buy a 1997-2002 Toyota or Lexus that you remove a valve cover to check for oil gelling before purchase! Nice!!!
If you like, I can link to any number of thousands of web pages tracking this issue. Here's a couple for you to refresh your memory:
http://www.corolland.com/sludge.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=&did=566
http://www.toyoland.com/sludge.html
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38921
It still amazes me Toyota didn't take an even worse public flogging over this. 3.3 million vehicles potentially affected by this. Do you realize it is now recommended that you use synthetic oil, save all your oil change receipts and change your oil every 3-5K miles even though the Toyota manuals say you can go up to 10K miles?!?
Go ahead and tell me all the sludge problems are due to poor customer maintenance. All of us here are smart enough to know thats bullsh!t and it will just prove what a Toyota nuthugger you really are.
BTW - Have you seen the ratings on the Toyota dealership experience yet? Still rates pretty close to the bottom, doesn't it. :lol: ;)
AronZ28 02-26-2005, 10:41 PM I've heard that the PCV vavle was redesigned in that it doesn't let enough of the gases out of the engine, which causes the oil to break down into sludge. I also think the 7500 mile oil change should get some of the blame too.(what a bunch of retards, I refuse to believe that oil doesn't break down by then, even if you are grandma doing 55 on the interstate for 8 hours a day).
Lets also not forget the head gasket recall on the 3.0 V6 engines installed in trucks and 4 Runners from 1988 to 1993.
http://yotarepair.com/Engine.html#Head%20gasket
redzed 02-27-2005, 01:29 PM I've heard that the PCV vavle was redesigned in that it doesn't let enough of the gases out of the engine, which causes the oil to break down into sludge. I also think the 7500 mile oil change should get some of the blame too.(what a bunch of retards, I refuse to believe that oil doesn't break down by then, even if you are grandma doing 55 on the interstate for 8 hours a day).
The "oil sludge" issue isn't exclusive to Toyota and it isn't a big deal. Personally, I change the oil in my Camaro every 3000 miles. Why? When a car isn't driven very frequently, I'd rather not take chances.
Lets also not forget the head gasket recall on the 3.0 V6 engines installed in trucks and 4 Runners from 1988 to 1993.
http://yotarepair.com/Engine.html#Head%20gasket
Thanks for digging up that piece of ancient history.
AronZ28, are you studying to become an "automotive archaeologist.?":lol:
1fastdog 02-27-2005, 01:38 PM The "oil sludge" issue isn't exclusive to Toyota and it isn't a big deal.
It's a big deal if you own one. What other manufacturers have had the issue? Care to post some links?
redzed 02-27-2005, 02:04 PM It's a big deal if you own one. What other manufacturers have had the issue? Care to post some links?
I could have sworn that C&D covered this issue a few months back and that one particular VW engine had this problem. Anyway, the Toyota issue is more a second or third owner problem considering we're talking about engines that are no longer in production in a car that will soon be entering yet another model change. I mean seriously, the 1997 Camry is already a "last generation car" and will soon be the "previous generation before the last generation" Camry.
In any case, sludge stems from unequal heat distribution - or "hot spots" - in the crankcase. If the problem can be solved through more frequent oil changes or synthetic oil, what's the big deal?
94_Z28_ragtop 02-27-2005, 03:43 PM I could have sworn that C&D covered this issue a few months back and that one particular VW engine had this problem. Anyway, the Toyota issue is more a second or third owner problem considering we're talking about engines that are no longer in production in a car that will soon be entering yet another model change. I mean seriously, the 1997 Camry is already a "last generation car" and will soon be the "previous generation before the last generation" Camry.
In any case, sludge stems from unequal heat distribution - or "hot spots" - in the crankcase. If the problem can be solved through more frequent oil changes or synthetic oil, what's the big deal?They are a second or third owner issue now, which should hurt resale but doesn't because of people like you that leghump all things Toyota. Fact is, the problem was bad with first owners too, with many of them experiencing failures before their warranty periods were even up.
If we were talking about GM, Ford or Chrysler here, your tone would be completely different here. But of course we're not, we're talking about Toyota so it's "what's the big deal?". Let's face it, you are either a hypocrite or an idiot.
Secondly, it's not so much that Toyota had the problems, it's how they handled it. POORLY! Blaming the vehicle owners and refusing to cover cars that were still under warranty when it was clearly their fault due to an improperly specified oil change interval and a poor design. They only finally relented when they realized the magnitude of the problem and how big of a reputation hit they were going to take if they continued to blame their customer for the companies mistake. As for your other comment, I hardly consider something that happened from 1997-2002 ancient history. :rolleyes:
And for your information, there have been several manufacturers that have had sludge issues. Saab is another company that screwed themselves with a poor PCV design. However, they handled the problem much better than Toyota and took care of everybody that was affected.
redzed 02-27-2005, 05:08 PM They are a second or third owner issue now, which should hurt resale but doesn't because of people like you that leghump all things Toyota. Fact is, the problem was bad with first owners too, with many of them experiencing failures before their warranty periods were even up.
If we were talking about GM, Ford or Chrysler here, your tone would be completely different here. But of course we're not, we're talking about Toyota so it's "what's the big deal?". Let's face it, you are either a hypocrite or an idiot.
Secondly, it's not so much that Toyota had the problems, it's how they handled it. POORLY! Blaming the vehicle owners and refusing to cover cars that were still under warranty when it was clearly their fault due to an improperly specified oil change interval and a poor design. They only finally relented when they realized the magnitude of the problem and how big of a reputation hit they were going to take if they continued to blame their customer for the companies mistake. As for your other comment, I hardly consider something that happened from 1997-2002 ancient history. :rolleyes:
And for your information, there have been several manufacturers that have had sludge issues. Saab is another company that screwed themselves with a poor PCV design. However, they handled the problem much better than Toyota and took care of everybody that was affected.
You really have to wonder what "sludge" in the base oil of some '97 Camrys, (or blown head gaskets in 15 year old pickups:lol:) has to do with a 2006 Lexus that's setting a new standard for power in the near luxury segment.
This thread is about the new 300hp+ (315 horsepower?) Lexus IS350.
94_Z28_ragtop 02-27-2005, 09:01 PM It was more than the 1997 Camry affected, it was all Toyota vehicles including Lexus between 1997 and 2002 that had either of those two engines in them. Nice way to try and minimize the problem, though. You seem to take every opportunity you can to bash anything Big 3 and especially GM. I just thought I'd return the favor! :) I see you don't have anything thoughtful to say about the issue so I guess I'll get back on topic.
I can see why you'd be proud that Lexus is finally a class leader in power, however temporary. They've been so far behind everybody else on power for so long! Now if only they could give something some style. That's one area where they are consistently worse than everybody else.
Melee Penguin 02-28-2005, 04:42 AM This thread is about the new 300hp+ (315 horsepower?) Lexus IS350.
Ahh, you mean the one that's supposed to topple the BMW and Mercedes industries right? :rolleyes:
Funny how if a new GM car gets introduced, you bring up "ancient history" about how crude X component is in Y car. Yet when we say something about a Toyota, or an expensive Toyota(Lexus if ya didn't know) it's not a big deal. :rolleyes:
The point of your thread about this new rumored 300+hp Lexus IS350 is that Toyota is your love child. Be sure to trade in your Camaro(If you really have one of course, and not a Toyota Tercel) on this new High Power Lexus for us. You can run synthetic and 93 Octane gas, because the soccer mom driving the Lexus SUV knows all about Octane ratings and Full Synthetic.
Your rumored High Power Lexus will not be a competitor to BMW or Mercedes Benz period. It will remain an expensive Toyota. You lose :D
redzed 03-01-2005, 12:33 PM Ahh, you mean the one that's supposed to topple the BMW and Mercedes industries right? :rolleyes:
Funny how if a new GM car gets introduced, you bring up "ancient history" about how crude X component is in Y car. Yet when we say something about a Toyota, or an expensive Toyota(Lexus if ya didn't know) it's not a big deal. :rolleyes:
The point of your thread about this new rumored 300+hp Lexus IS350 is that Toyota is your love child. Be sure to trade in your Camaro(If you really have one of course, and not a Toyota Tercel) on this new High Power Lexus for us. You can run synthetic and 93 Octane gas, because the soccer mom driving the Lexus SUV knows all about Octane ratings and Full Synthetic.
Your rumored High Power Lexus will not be a competitor to BMW or Mercedes Benz period. It will remain an expensive Toyota. You lose :D
You just don't get it. The 300hp+ Lexus IS350 isn't rumored, it's a reality.
91_z28_4me 03-01-2005, 12:36 PM You just don't get it. The 300hp+ Lexus IS350 isn't rumored, it's a reality.
Where's the press release?
redzed 03-01-2005, 12:43 PM It was more than the 1997 Camry affected, it was all Toyota vehicles including Lexus between 1997 and 2002 that had either of those two engines in them. Nice way to try and minimize the problem, though. You seem to take every opportunity you can to bash anything Big 3 and especially GM. I just thought I'd return the favor! :) I see you don't have anything thoughtful to say about the issue so I guess I'll get back on topic.
It wasn't "all Toyota vehicles including Lexus between 1997 and 2002," for starters. Unlike BMW's little known cylinder bore erosion problem in early V8s from over a decade ago, the Toyota issue isn't all that serious, or startling, or even relevent to any current Toyota. I mean, seriously, Toyota no longer makes the 2.2 liter anymore and the 3.0 liter was superceded in product planning a couple of years ago by the 3.3 liter, and now the 3.5 liter looks set to replace the 3.3 liter.
I can see why you'd be proud that Lexus is finally a class leader in power, however temporary. They've been so far behind everybody else on power for so long! Now if only they could give something some style. That's one area where they are consistently worse than everybody else.
...And now Lexus is leap-frogging the whole industry.:lol:
Where's the press release?
The IS250 will have a 204hp V6.
I'm guessing the 3.5L engine will be rated higher than the Avalons 280hp rating but lower than the 2006 Lexus GS430's 300HP rated V8.
94_Z28_ragtop 03-01-2005, 01:52 PM It wasn't "all Toyota vehicles including Lexus between 1997 and 2002," for starters. Do you need reading lessons? I believe I said all Toyota or Lexus vehicles with either of those 2 engines (2.2L 4 cyl or 3.0L 6 cylinder), not ALL Toyota or Lexus vehicles. I'll say it again, you are a hypocrite. If it was GM and not Toyota you'd be jumping all over it. :rolleyes: You're not fooling anybody here. We all know what your agenda is.
...And now Lexus is leap-frogging the whole industry.:lol: With one whole car for a presumably short period of time. :lol: Real big achievement their champ! :rolleyes:
EDIT: For clarifications sake I'll state the problem was with the 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 and 5SFE 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engines. Does that make you happy? That narrows the possible problems down to only 3.3 million vehicles. :rolleyes:
Camry, Camry Solara, Sienna, Avalon, Celica, Highlander, Lexus ES 300, and Lexus RX 300 all were affected.
...And now Lexus is leap-frogging the whole industry.:lol:
Just becaue they now have more HP than BMW 3 series in there teir two 6 cyl? Infiniti and Cadillac have already done that. BMW, Cadillac, and Infiniti will still have more base HP than Lexus. There is more to Luxury cars than HP
The out going 3 series also had that 333HP I6, which is going to be replaced by a 380HP+ V8. The 300hp+ engines are nothing new to BMW and the 3 series
MunchE 03-01-2005, 03:21 PM It wasn't "all Toyota vehicles including Lexus between 1997 and 2002," for starters. Unlike BMW's little known cylinder bore erosion problem in early V8s from over a decade ago, the Toyota issue isn't all that serious, or startling, or even relevent to any current Toyota. I mean, seriously, Toyota no longer makes the 2.2 liter anymore and the 3.0 liter was superceded in product planning a couple of years ago by the 3.3 liter, and now the 3.5 liter looks set to replace the 3.3 liter.
...And now Lexus is leap-frogging the whole industry.:lol:
So I've been reading on your precious IS on some other boards. It's speculated that we're looking at IS250 215 HP, IS300 245 HP, IS350 315 HP. Let's keep in mind here that this high dollar lexus pretty much looks like the sedan version of my $18k econobox. The higher engine model is probably going to come in around $40k, which is creeping way too near M3 territory to draw in the performance buyer. The car doesn't look like it'll inspire people like the 3 series, and will continue to lag wayyyy behind it.
Congrats, Toyota made an engine with more than 300hp and put it into a car. The car is a subpar overall package and won't sell well, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it undersold the last car, since this one looks even bigger and blander than before.
Regardless, you're a sad sad fanboy, and this car obviously doesn't cut it. The other board I go to, no one said a single positive thing about the car.
Edit: I take that back. Some people said it has a really nice interior, but looks like an unoriginal copy of various car models. Anyone notice the car looks HUGE now? The old IS looked thin and sporty, this thing is proportioned like a Camry.
redzed 03-02-2005, 05:14 PM Where's the press release?
The press release for the IS350 will have to wait until the U.S. launch.
The silver car shown in Geneva was the diesel-engined IS220d. Europe is definitely getting the 2.2 liter diesel (that was a "no-brainer") and a 2.5 liter IS250 to replace the last generation IS200.
91_z28_4me 03-02-2005, 07:30 PM The press release for the IS350 will have to wait until the U.S. launch.
The silver car shown in Geneva was the diesel-engined IS220d. Europe is definitely getting the 2.2 liter diesel (that was a "no-brainer") and a 2.5 liter IS250 to replace the last generation IS200.
So if there is no press release then aren't you talking about a rumored engine?
Melee Penguin 03-02-2005, 09:05 PM You just don't get it. The 300hp+ Lexus IS350 isn't rumored, it's a reality.
High Power BMWs are out, High Power Mercedes Benz are out. The Lexus IS350 isn't. Next?
Geoff Chadwick 03-03-2005, 07:15 AM In any case, sludge stems from unequal heat distribution - or "hot spots" - in the crankcase. If the problem can be solved through more frequent oil changes or synthetic oil, what's the big deal?
Because you just said that synthetic oil made less frequent oil changes a reality! Again, if I were concerned about sludge, I'd be swapping synthetic every 3000 miles! Thats why I do, and so do you (in this supposed camaro). I had a friend with the 2.2 camry - and he was switching oil every 3000 miles, and still is. No problems yet (knock on wood). Why is that an issue? You dont seem to think so, but a LOT of those vehicles are still on the road. Just like the 4.3L trucks running all over the place.
For inline engines, I'm not going to go into the harmonics issues or anything else. And I also wasnt just talking GM's Inline engines (notice I didnt say that). There are advantages, plain and simple. BMW is FINALLY looking to start moving upward from it's inline 6 engines, but after keeping the 3 series in charge for 20 years, maybe moving up a little bit to a v8 would work. Also it allows them to shorten the engine bay (though widen it) which will mean they can package some things differently.
Lexus has some good cars. They are toyotas. I enjoy toyotas a lot. But they dont have the prestige. Prestige has nothing to do with reliability, or comfort, how much power is under the hood, or anything like that. Prestige is only something that exists in the human mind, an image created by society.
Notice head turns at a lexus. Then notice the head turns at a Mercedes or a BMW. The difference is very much a reality. It doesnt matter how reliable toyota is, or if they are better cars for cheaper. People will still buy Mercedes - just like people still buy the "high value v6". :D It may not make sense, but people do it anyway. People also talk on the cell phone while driving. And people also sue McDonalds to the point where "Super Size" isnt even on the menu anymore...
People still buy the CTS-V, even with it's 13 year old transmission. Just because it's that old you seem to say there is a problem. You know when you fly in an airplane, do you know how old those things are?
You know how old the telephone is? We should all be using cell phones!
You know how old a keyboard is? We should be typing with our minds!
Televisions! Everyone should use LCD's! How DARE Toshiba still produce a standard color television! Toshiba is crap!
Yeah right.
Most of the other forums said March 1st. You said March 3rd, and I waited. It's now March 3rd, and I'm looking for this press release you said was coming...
For Humor:
NHTSA has also launched a preliminary evaluation of Toyota's 2004 Lexus RX 330 sport utility vehicle after the agency received 10 reports of lost braking power, resulting in increased effort to slow or stop the vehicle. The agency had no reports of any crashes or injuries resulting from lost braking power.
The 2004 model year includes about 146,000 RX 330s, the top-selling vehicle in the Lexus lineup, according to NHTSA.
Lexus told dealers that if they received a complaint, they could replace the brake master cylinder assembly during service repairs if the vehicle is under warranty, a Toyota spokesman said.
NHTSA has also opened a preliminary evaluation of the 2004 model year Toyota Sienna minivan following eight consumer complaints that the middle-row passenger captain's chair seat belt webbing would frequently jam and not retract. The investigation covers an estimate 75,000 Siennas.
REUTERS
Gold_Rush 03-03-2005, 12:31 PM The IS250 will have a 204hp V6.
I'm guessing the 3.5L engine will be rated higher than the Avalons 280hp rating but lower than the 2006 Lexus GS430's 300HP rated V8.
I'm looking at this autoweek article here, and the only output they mentioned for the 3.5L is 245hp :confused:. No where near 300 or 315 horses for that matter like all the rumors pointed to. I knew it sounded too good to be true, but i'm still hoping they prove the article wrong when they do end up announcing it in NY.
Quote from article:
"Sources indicate the IS 250’s V6 will produce about 205 hp compared with the current car’s 3.0-liter 215-hp inline six. In New York, Lexus also will announce a 3.5-liter 245-hp V6"
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101903
Melee Penguin 03-03-2005, 01:23 PM Lexus has some good cars. They are toyotas. I enjoy toyotas a lot. But they dont have the prestige. Prestige has nothing to do with reliability, or comfort, how much power is under the hood, or anything like that. Prestige is only something that exists in the human mind, an image created by society.
Exactly what everyone else is saying. To bad Mr. Zed can't see this. It's now March 3rd and No Press Release about this 300+hp Lexus IS350. In fact, here:
http://www.lexus.com/models/index.html and the only 2006 model I see is the GS.
I've got a pristine Toyota shirt if ya want it redzed. I've never worn it. :D
redzed 03-03-2005, 05:48 PM BMW is FINALLY looking to start moving upward from it's inline 6 engines, but after keeping the 3 series in charge for 20 years, maybe moving up a little bit to a v8 would work. Also it allows them to shorten the engine bay (though widen it) which will mean they can package some things differently.
You don't seem to know that BMW has actually planned a switch to V6 engines several times. In fact, the only reason the upcoming 2006 E90 3-series still has an inline-6 is because the V6-program was cancelled after the spin-off of MG-Rover over five years ago.
redzed 03-03-2005, 06:08 PM I'm looking at this autoweek article here, and the only output they mentioned for the 3.5L is 245hp :confused:. No where near 300 or 315 horses for that matter like all the rumors pointed to. I knew it sounded too good to be true, but i'm still hoping they prove the article wrong when they do end up announcing it in NY.
Quote from article:
"Sources indicate the IS 250’s V6 will produce about 205 hp compared with the current car’s 3.0-liter 215-hp inline six. In New York, Lexus also will announce a 3.5-liter 245-hp V6"
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101903
The 245hp figure quoted by Autoweek is total nonsense. I can assure you that the $31K+ Lexus IS-series will have a higher power rating than than the $26K+ Toyota Avalon. Does it make any sense that an engine that makes 280hp in a mainstream FWD application would actually make less horsepower (245hp:lol:) in a performance-oriented RWD application?
The fact-of-the-matter is that Lexus didn't make information on the IS350 available at the Geneva premier of the Lexus IS220d and IS250. Similarly, back when the Lexus IS200 was introduced in Europe, the final specifications on the U.S. market IS300 weren't available.
Geoff Chadwick 03-04-2005, 01:10 AM You don't seem to know that BMW has actually planned a switch to V6 engines several times. In fact, the only reason the upcoming 2006 E90 3-series still has an inline-6 is because the V6-program was cancelled after the spin-off of MG-Rover over five years ago.
No, I do actually. However it never happened, and there were reasons. Once again proving that until the press releases hit the papers, nothing is written in stone...
redzed 03-04-2005, 04:19 PM No, I do actually. However it never happened, and there were reasons.
Somehow I doubt that you know very much about this topic. Surprise me.:lol:
Once again proving that until the press releases hit the papers, nothing is written in stone...
There were never any press releases concerning BMW's cancelled "NG" V6.:lol:
96_Camaro_B4C 03-04-2005, 04:29 PM There were never any press releases concerning BMW's cancelled "NG" V6.:lol:I think that his point. :confused: There was an engine under development, but it got dropped (for whatever reasons) prior to any press announcement that a new model was going to feature this new engine... so it was not written in stone. You just agreed with his point; at least that is how I read it...
Geoff Chadwick 03-04-2005, 05:21 PM Exactly. There never was a press release. I might has well have said Chevy nearly made a 2006 Camaro with a 427cid engine for $27,000. I know its impossible - but without actual press releases, everything is honestly just speculation. I could go into the BMW's move toward V6's, which isnt even dead yet - but that isnt the point at all. The point is there are reasons the Fbody is dead, and there are reasons the V6 in 2004 STILL wasnt in the 3 series.
This IS350, I still have yet to see a press release, which you insisted was to be here the 3rd. It still isnt. No press release - nothing in stone. You are trying to dodge around that.
You have this issue on the forums of saying something, then when people tell you that you're full of it, that they prove what you're saying isnt true. Now you expect me to tell you all about the V6 attempts in the BMW cars. Why? Sounds like a waste of my time. That has nothing to do with the point of this thread. The point is not for me to sit here and yammer about the BMW that never was. The point is still that the Lexus you have insisted would be here still isnt.
On March 3rd you can just eat your words.
Well? I'm not seeing anything. I havent seen squat. Now if it comes, I really am not too concerned, as your dedicated sources that told you when and where were wrong- if they dont know when the press release will hit the floor, they CERTAINLY dont know what will be on it. You miss all the points and try to cover yourself making others.
FACTS:
You said the press release would be here on the 3rd. It wasnt.
You said this 315HP car was a reality. No press release... so it's just speculation. It MIGHT be true, but you have no proof. It could be a guess.
Whatever lexus comes up with, it wont beat the 3 series in either north american sales or global sales, and I'll even give it 5 years of updates and upgrades to do it. It wont come close in sales. It also probably wont even come close on the track. And price? Thats in the eye of the beholder, as I hate Lexus styling (though its good quality) and love BMW styling, though the quality isnt where it should be. It wont/cant dethrone the BMW 3 series.
And this is all speculation, as no such IS350 car has been confirmed yet. Do us all a favor....
Dont bother replying to this thread without a direct link to the press release. As of now you yourself have led this thread off topic and continue to drift it farther and farther off. Honestly it should get back on topic, be deleted, or closed... Just save us all the headaches of your ignorance and dont bother coming back till you have proof this lexus exists with your supposed HP numbers...
redzed 03-05-2005, 01:12 PM Dont bother replying to this thread without a direct link to the press release. As of now you yourself have led this thread off topic and continue to drift it farther and farther off. Honestly it should get back on topic, be deleted, or closed... Just save us all the headaches of your ignorance and dont bother coming back till you have proof this lexus exists with your supposed HP numbers...
And you still have a hard time believing in a 300+hp Lexus IS350?:lol:
Geoff Chadwick 03-05-2005, 01:23 PM And you still are an idiot with no proof :lol: it doesnt matter what I believe, now does it? You said something was going to happen, and it would happen on this day... and once again you were wrong. I'm not suprised at that. I have a hard time believing a 300hp IS350 will come out next to a v8 with just over 300hp as well. Maybe next year when the v8 is gone, but you said it'd be out this year, didnt you?
You said on March 3rd I'd eat my words. I'm not. :lol: once again, you prove your own stupidity for me.
redzed 03-05-2005, 01:39 PM I have a hard time believing a 300hp IS350 will come out next to a v8 with just over 300hp as well. Maybe next year when the v8 is gone, but you said it'd be out this year, didnt you?
So now you believe that a 300hp(+) Lexus IS350 can exist, but not before 11:59 PM on December 31, 2005?:lol:
You said on March 3rd I'd eat my words. I'm not. :lol: once again, you prove your own stupidity for me.
And I also though you'd be able to demonstrate your intimate knowledge of BMW's engine range.:lol:
Geoff Chadwick 03-05-2005, 10:02 PM And I dont have to, that's not the point of this thread...
...moron
SleeperSupra 03-05-2005, 11:19 PM 1) only 300HP for the top of the line car???? :lol: CTS has 400HP
The IS300 is and the IS350 will be the bottom of the line for Lexus.
Spinner 03-05-2005, 11:26 PM The IS will get the 4.3liter V8 and will have optional (edit, mistype) all wheel drive. It IS a real car, they are testing them overseas. AWD will be an option, as with many new lexus models. It will NOT, however, be named the IS350, but the IS430, like the rest of the lexus models with the 4.3 v8.
The 200 will never see US market
MunchE 03-06-2005, 12:04 AM I don't think redzed likes me, he rarely replies to my posts. Perhaps I'm not inflammatory enough when dismantling his jibberish.
redzed, you said autoweek is wrong and you're right....back it up. What reason do we have to believe you? Where have you ever established your credibility? Never. Even in this thread you've been proven wrong (MARCH 3rd) and you just ignore it and push on.
This thread is stupid. The mods closed the ban redzed thread, why don't you start closing all of redzed's threads while you're at it? They're a hell of a lot more idiotic than posts dismantling his non-existent credibility.
But in the interest of knowledge, I'll actually provide a real link about this:
It was shown at the New York Auto Show last year and is the artistic forebear of the new IS 250 and IS 350, which will go on sale this fall. The concept car is styled to look like it was molded from a single block of metal and as if it's burning down the highway even when parked. The IS 250 will be priced comparably with the current $31,000 IS 300. But the IS 350, which will kick out more than 300 horsepower, will be more expensive.
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/05/02/lexus/1.htm?slideShowSpeed=200
and to expand:
Is Lexus Sexy Enough To Seduce Europe?
Lexus will amp up its cars' pizzazz and ditch the understated styling
Since Toyota Motor Corp.'s (TM ) Lexus division first broke into the U.S. luxury market back in 1989, its recipe for success has been plain and simple: Lexus' vehicles are understated outside and comfy and quiet inside. And its dealers bend over backwards for customers. While long-established names such as BMW, Mercedes-Benz (DCX ), Audi, and Cadillac battled each other by adding more horsepower and by pushing the limits of styling, Lexus made conservatism its virtue. Americans loved it, buying enough posh cars and SUVs to make Lexus the best-selling luxury brand in the U.S.
But Lexus' lead isn't all that it appears. More than half of the vehicles it sells these days are SUVs, at a time when demand for big SUVs is slowing. Factor that out, and Lexus actually ranks fifth in luxury passenger-car sales in the U.S. Most ominously, an increasing number of luxury-car shoppers are voting for speed and handling over a soft ride. Says Eric Noble, president of Car Lab, an Orange (Calif.) consulting firm: "Boomers don't have a taste for cushy the way the previous generation does."
Lexus, in short, needs to take on the German car companies. That explains why it's about to shake things up. On Mar. 3 at the Geneva Auto Show -- in BMW's Swiss backyard -- Lexus will show off its new IS 250 and 350, luxury performance cars styled to look as if they were molded from a single piece of metal. The IS 350 and the just-launched, aerodynamic GS 430 sedan are the products of a push to make Lexuses faster -- and faster-looking. Lexus boasts that these cars' performance will rival that of BMW's Ultimate Driving Machines. They're also going to jack up prices. The IS 350 will cost a few thousand more than its predecessor. The $43,000 GS 300 and $51,000 GS 430 are about $2,000 more expensive. An exotic sports car with a price tag of over $100,000 may even be on the way.
Not coincidentally, Mar. 3 is two days after BMW plans to unveil the latest version of its 3 Series sedan. Lexus executives vow to steal even more BMW and Mercedes owners in the U.S. and eventually challenge those brands in Europe, where Lexus barely registers today. Says Group Vice-President Dennis E. Clements: "It is our intention globally to become the preeminent luxury car."
Can he pull it off? It's unwise to bet against Toyota. The parent company's market share is growing in Europe and the U.S. Meanwhile, Lexus widened its U.S. sales lead over BMW last year, to almost 30,000 vehicles. Its dealers routinely rank first in J.D. Power & Associates Inc.'s customer-satisfaction survey. And the brand beats all other luxury names when it comes to consumer aspiration, according to California firm Strategic Vision Inc.
SILENT AS A TOMB
But pizzazz has never been Toyota's strong point. The bulbous SC 430 convertible is the closest thing to a styling statement from Lexus; it sells a modestly successful 10,000 cars a year. Toyota flopped with its attempts to draw sports-car fans with the MR2 Spyder, which hit the market in 2000, and the Supra sports car before that. The Supra no longer sells in the U.S., and the MR2 will make its exit after this year. "Lexus equity is tied up in cars that are tomb-quiet, not in [their] performance," says Daniel Gorrell, a partner at Strategic Vision.
Lexus cars were styled cautiously on purpose. Executives saw comfort and reliability, not fashion, as their selling point. In some cases, the cars were created by Toyota engineers, who operated without a styling motif to make the cars look as if they came from the same family. But two years ago, Toyota built a Lexus engineering and design center in Nagoya, Japan. The brand now has several hundred stylists and engineers feeding ideas from satellite studios in the French city of Nice and in Southern California.
That new design effort is key to the emerging European strategy. Make no mistake: Selling cars in Europe -- especially to Germans -- will be Lexus' biggest challenge. The brand sold just 25,000 cars there last year and has a target of 65,000 by the end of the decade. Compare that with BMW's sales of 573,000 cars in Western Europe, up 11% from 2003.
It doesn't help that up till now Lexus has not offered high-performance diesel engines. This will change with the new IS model, which comes with an optional 2.2-liter diesel. But Lexus is relying on its cutting-edge hybrid gas-electric technology to deliver a performance boost. It remains to be seen if diesel-loving Europeans will take to the new technology. Rivals aren't too worried for now. "We are taking them seriously," says BMW Chairman Helmut Panke. "But right now, we have one global competitor, and it's Mercedes."
Lexus has much more at stake in the U.S. In passenger-car sales it trails BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, and even Honda Motor Co.'s (HMC ) Acura division. And Lexus has performance issues. The current IS 300 struck out against the BMW 3 series and other cars selling for $30,000 to $40,000 because it was smaller and, in some cases, underpowered. Its V-6 engine kicks out 215 horsepower, but rivals such as the Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G35, and the 3 series all sell optional engines with at least 225 hp. The new cars promise to pack much more punch: Lexus says the V-6 in the new IS 350 will have well over 300 hp, and the new GS 300 and GS 430 have at least 245 hp.
THE STRETCH MODEL
Clements says Lexus isn't trying to become BMW. The new cars will offer all-wheel drive, and craftsmanship will still be a priority. (Even in lower-priced Lexus vehicles, all wood in the interior comes from the same tree, so the grain matches.) Still, the styling makeover will be even more pronounced when the new flagship LS 430 sedan hits the market in two years. The most expensive LS 430 now sells for $74,000, but Lexus plans a stretched, $100,000 version to compete with Mercedes' tony S500 and S600 sedans. Dealers have been told to expect a production version of a Formula One-inspired sports car near the same price.
Can Lexus sell cars for six figures? If they deliver the performance that Lexus is promising, surveys indicate buyers will pony up the additional cash. "The Japanese have always played it safe," says dealer Kenneth Meade of Meade Lexus in Lakeside, Mich. "But if you want to run with Mercedes and BMW, you have to have style and performance." For Lexus, this is no time to get comfortable.
This is an article from businessweek, however reg is required to view it on the site. I can see the summary on there. ;) I found it posted on a lexus board after 5 minutes of searching on google. Apparently this level of investigative reporting is beyond the scope of redzed. I imagine he'll ignore most of the comments in here and just say "LOOK SEE" and try to spin my post like it's supporting him, but I'd like to go on record that redzed is a total idiot. I think he tries to regurgitate news articles without sources to try and be some sort of "cool insider" so people will believe the crap that he makes up.
The IS300 is and the IS350 will be the bottom of the line for Lexus.
Wrong, the IS250 is the bottom and the IS350 is the top IS model. An IS430 was rumored but who knows if that will happen
The 400HP CTSv is the top CTS
SleeperSupra 03-06-2005, 05:49 PM The IS250 will not be sold in America.
redzed 03-07-2005, 05:05 PM The IS250 will not be sold in America.
I'm inclined to agree.
94_Z28_ragtop 03-08-2005, 01:55 PM From yesterday's New York Times:
Geneva Is Not Stuck in Neutral
New York Times 03/07/05
author: Nick Kurczewski
c. 2005 New York Times Company
... Two new models taking a cautious design approach are the BMW 3 Series and the Lexus IS 250. BMW's styling has been polarizing in recent years, particularly the flagship 7 Series, which has been given a mild rework. The new 3 Series, the company's sales leader and a crucial profit center, cannot risk any guffaws. When it arrives in the United States in May, the next-generation 3 will offer a choice of two in-line 6-cylinder engines, one with 215 horsepower and the other with 255.
A conservative step forward by BMW gave Toyota's Lexus brand an opportunity to imbue their new IS with a higher level of visual excitement. But Lexus's much touted - by Lexus at least - L-Finesse design theme only provides the IS 250 with an uninspiring, if uncluttered, look. Two engines were mentioned at the press conference: a 2.2-liter 4-cylinder diesel (for Europe only) and a 2.5-liter gasoline V-6 destined for the United States. A higher-performance version of the IS will be introduced at the New York auto show later this month ...
Sounds like they aren't real enamored with the Lexus IS :lol:
The IS250 will not be sold in America.
a 2.2-liter 4-cylinder diesel (for Europe only) and a 2.5-liter gasoline V-6 destined for the United States. A higher-performance version of the IS will be introduced at the New York auto show later this month ...
I have read many places the IS250 is coming to the USA.
IS250 = low $30Ks, 205HP
IS350 = low $40Ks, 280HP+
MunchE 03-08-2005, 03:40 PM I'm inclined to agree.
Looking at real sources, redzed, as usual, is wrong.
redzed 03-08-2005, 05:25 PM Looking at real sources, redzed, as usual, is wrong.
1. There was no concrete information released at Geneva concerning the U.S. market Lexus IS250.
2. Every aspect of the automotive industry is changing as the U.S. Dollar continues to fall.
There are plenty of people on this board who'd like to think that Lexus is going to price the next generation IS350 $10,000 higher than Infiniti's G35. It isn't going to happen.:lol:
MunchE 03-09-2005, 03:02 AM 1. There was no concrete information released at Geneva concerning the U.S. market Lexus IS250.
You're right. There was no concrete information released about the US market IS350, either. Yet you made a whole thread about how this mythical car is a 3 series beater. What's your point?
redzed 03-09-2005, 03:49 PM You're right. There was no concrete information released about the US market IS350, either. Yet you made a whole thread about how this mythical car is a 3 series beater. What's your point?
Why do you have such a hard time accepting that Lexus is going to offer a viable 3-series competitor? BMW has set the bar pretty low with the new E90 330i and Toyota (aka Lexus) finally has the right powertrain.
Why do you have such a hard time accepting that Lexus is going to offer a viable 3-series competitor? BMW has set the bar pretty low with the new E90 330i and Toyota (aka Lexus) finally has the right powertrain.
There is more to a 3 series fighter than just HP
MunchE 03-09-2005, 07:17 PM Why do you have such a hard time accepting that Lexus is going to offer a viable 3-series competitor? BMW has set the bar pretty low with the new E90 330i and Toyota (aka Lexus) finally has the right powertrain.
1. There was no concrete information released at Geneva concerning the U.S. market Lexus IS250.
2. Every aspect of the automotive industry is changing as the U.S. Dollar continues to fall.
1. There was no concrete information released at Geneva concerning a Lexus IS350, for the US market or otherwise.
2. Every aspect of the industry includes the alleged IS350.
I put it in the same terms you are using for everyone else. Why are you holding other people up to a standard of having concrete information when you have absolutely none? Back it up. Back up a single thing you say. You can't do it, you wont' do it, you'll pick part of my post and quote it while ignoring all of the parts you can't refute, because that's what you always do.
Zero credibility. Don't refute anyone else, your credibility is the lowest on the board.
Geoff Chadwick 03-10-2005, 09:15 AM Why do you have such a hard time accepting that Lexus is going to offer a viable 3-series competitor? BMW has set the bar pretty low with the new E90 330i and Toyota (aka Lexus) finally has the right powertrain.
March 10! No press release! Still not eating my words! IS350 does not exist, or your claims to all the power. I might as well say it's cost $60,000 too. Proof it wont! YOU CANT!
BigBlueCruiser 03-10-2005, 09:54 AM Damn, this ain't a freakin courtroom. Ain't no debate contest either.
Bottom line it looks like redzed is right.
The IS350 is coming in with >300HP to lead the pack of *** hi-po ~$30K cars that make the Caddy CTS and Euro performance sedans look like weak sauce.
96_Camaro_B4C 03-10-2005, 10:35 AM Even at 280 hp, I don't think the G35 makes the 255 hp CTS look like weak sauce in terms of real world output/performance. It will be interesting to see if this 3.5L IS (whatever the final number is) lives up to the horsepower numbers it has on paper. The 255 hp CTS is rather quick, just a tick or two behind the G35 sedan I think, but from a marketing standpoint they will have to up the power rating sometime soon (although if the CTS keeps selling well without incentives, then I guess they don't really have to do that).
Even at 280 hp, I don't think the G35 makes the 255 hp CTS look like weak sauce in terms of real world output/performance. It will be interesting to see if this 3.5L IS (whatever the final number is) lives up to the horsepower numbers it has on paper. The 255 hp CTS is rather quick, just a tick or two behind the G35 sedan I think, but from a marketing standpoint they will have to up the power rating sometime soon (although if the CTS keeps selling well without incentives, then I guess they don't really have to do that).
Lets not forget torque. The Lexus may have more HP, but it won't really have any torque advatage over the G35 or CTS
AronZ28 03-10-2005, 11:42 AM Even at 280 hp, I don't think the G35 makes the 255 hp CTS look like weak sauce in terms of real world output/performance. It will be interesting to see if this 3.5L IS (whatever the final number is) lives up to the horsepower numbers it has on paper. The 255 hp CTS is rather quick, just a tick or two behind the G35 sedan I think, but from a marketing standpoint they will have to up the power rating sometime soon (although if the CTS keeps selling well without incentives, then I guess they don't really have to do that).
If Caddy wants to be the "standard of the world" they will have to lead the competition in every catergory, more horsepower is definetly in order.
PacerX 03-10-2005, 11:49 AM The IS350 is coming in with >300HP to lead the pack of *** hi-po ~$30K cars that make the Caddy CTS and Euro performance sedans look like weak sauce.
I see your wimpy Japanese 6 and raise you one fire-breathing American 400hp monster displacement V8.
If you want performance, and most of these cars in that category will rarely, if ever, see WOT - Caddy's got the Aces. The Lexus = cannon fodder.
Geoff Chadwick 03-10-2005, 03:29 PM Thats very true. While the European and American Luxury lines have cars at the 400hp mark (and above) the Import market is very scarce in that range.
Also I find it amusing that going to Lexus's website, every car has "luxury" in the single line "5 word" description. In Acura and Infinity, "luxury" may not be in the title, but it's ALL over the basic description text. In Mercedes, BMW, and Cadillac's websites, you dont find luxury written all over the place. All are "luxury brands" but because of the prestige mentioned already, some just dont need to say it. I think after looking through BMW's site I didnt find "luxury" more then a few times... Its like when you buy a Mercedes you KNOW you're buying a luxury vehicle... they dont need to tell you.
BMW makes a "Sports Activity Vehicle" Mercedes makes a "Sport Utility Vehicle" and Lexus makes a "Luxury Utility Vehicle"... Kinda funny...
91_z28_4me 03-11-2005, 10:43 AM I think it is time to unviel my new sig.
redzed 03-11-2005, 02:34 PM I think it is time to unviel my new sig.
But isn't it strange that 91_z28_4me still feels compelled to post on a thread that was started by yours truly.:lol:
MunchE 03-11-2005, 05:08 PM But isn't it strange that 91_z28_4me still feels compelled to post on a thread that was started by yours truly.:lol:
So you're an accomplished troll. You're bad enough that people post in threads specifically to say how ignorant you are.
And you're proud of this? I guess kids do respond to negative attention
BigBlueCruiser 03-12-2005, 12:17 PM I see your wimpy Japanese 6 and raise you one fire-breathing American 400hp monster displacement V8.
If you want performance, and most of these cars in that category will rarely, if ever, see WOT - Caddy's got the Aces. The Lexus = cannon fodder.
I'll give the GTO its due. For the same price, it leaves the *** and German performance sedans behind. Course several of my buddies driving Lexus GS's just start laughing when I mention Pontiac GTO in the same sentence. There's really no comparison in the luxury department. Nope the Caddy CTS is the one that's really competing in that arena.
But the CTS is outgunned in this segment. The 3.6 needs to go to 320-330hp to compete remain on top.
Now if we're talking big end sedan performance, well I'll raise your CTS-V with one Skyline GTR.
91_z28_4me 03-12-2005, 12:21 PM Now if we're talking big end sedan performance, well I'll raise your CTS-V with one Skyline GTR.
And just how are you going to get a NEW Skyline GTR in the States?
BigBlueCruiser 03-12-2005, 12:25 PM Even at 280 hp, I don't think the G35 makes the 255 hp CTS look like weak sauce in terms of real world output/performance. It will be interesting to see if this 3.5L IS (whatever the final number is) lives up to the horsepower numbers it has on paper. The 255 hp CTS is rather quick, just a tick or two behind the G35 sedan I think, but from a marketing standpoint they will have to up the power rating sometime soon (although if the CTS keeps selling well without incentives, then I guess they don't really have to do that).
Well I think Toyota's intention is to drop kick the current pretenders to the throne over the goal posts with this new 3.5 motor.
I've read on the Lexus sites that they will drop the 3.5 into GS also as soon as they're ready to go with a new 5.0 V8. If they did it right now the GS350 would probably outrun the GS430.
So there's going to big time performance across the Lexus lineup in the next 2 years
IS350
GS350/GS500
LS500
I'd bet on 380-400hp on that new 5.0
redzed 03-12-2005, 01:43 PM Well I think Toyota's intention is to drop kick the current pretenders to the throne over the goal posts with this new 3.5 motor.
I've read on the Lexus sites that they will drop the 3.5 into GS also as soon as they're ready to go with a new 5.0 V8. If they did it right now the GS350 would probably outrun the GS430.
So there's going to big time performance across the Lexus lineup in the next 2 years
IS350
GS350/GS500
LS500
I'd bet on 380-400hp on that new 5.0
I agree with most of what you're saying , but keep in mind that part of the reason a Lexus GS300 is premiering instead ofa "Lexus GS350" is because Toyota has big plans for the upcoming GS Hybrid variant - which I'll call the "Lexus GS400-H."
redzed 03-23-2005, 01:52 PM .....keep in mind that part of the reason a Lexus GS300 is premiering instead ofa "Lexus GS350" is because Toyota has big plans for the upcoming GS Hybrid variant - which I'll call the "Lexus GS400-H."
I was wrong about a "GS400-H." It turns out we're getting a GS450-H based on the outgoing 4.3 liter V8. I guess Toyota likes using soon-to-be-replaced gasoline engines as part of their "sophisticated" hybrid drivetrains.
However, I was on the target about the 300hp+ IS350.:lol:
Threxx 03-23-2005, 02:11 PM I was wrong about a "GS400-H." It turns out we're getting a GS450-H based on the outgoing 4.3 liter V8. I guess Toyota likes using soon-to-be-replaced gasoline engines as part of their "sophisticated" hybrid drivetrains.
However, I was on the target about the 300hp+ IS350.:lol:
Actually, the GS450-H will be using the 300+ hp 3.5 GR-series V6 shared with the IS350, but will be adding an electric system to it for added power and economy. It will without a doubt be the fastest factory Lexus vehicle made to date and the most fuel efficient!
FWIW the 4.3L V8 is one of the most solidly-built and well designed motors on the planet in terms of durability and smoothness. Not so much in terms of power delivery where it hits 300hp and 325 lb-tq at best in stock form... but that wasn't ever really Lexus' goal for that motor anyhow, so being 10% or so below the competition never really made much difference to them.
Heck... in every test I've seen recently, the 290hp 6-speed automatic LS430 actually out-accelerates the 345hp 5-speed automatic Q45!:think: And there isn't even that significant of a weight difference IIRC.
redzed 03-23-2005, 02:19 PM Actually, the GS450-H will be using the 300+ hp 3.5 GR-series V6 shared with the IS350, but will be adding an electric system to it for added power and economy. It will without a doubt be the fastest factory Lexus vehicle made to date and the most fuel efficient!
FWIW the 4.3L V8 is one of the most solidly-built and well designed motors on the planet in terms of durability and smoothness. Not so much in terms of power delivery where it hits 300hp and 325 lb-tq at best in stock form... but that wasn't ever really Lexus' goal for that motor anyhow, so being 10% or so below the competition never really made much difference to them.
Heck... in every test I've seen recently, the 290hp 6-speed automatic LS430 actually out-accelerates the 345hp 5-speed automatic Q45!:think: And there isn't even that significant of a weight difference IIRC.
This is what I based my previous statement on:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=176&sid=176&article=8296
Lexus GS450h
The GS450h will be the first luxury sedan with a hybrid powertrain, and the first HEV in any form on a rear-wheel-drive platform. Its Big Apple unveiling is scheduled to occur about the same time the first Lexus hybrid, the RX400h crossover, hits showrooms. Company officials are being tightlipped about specific details, but Lexus will start with the new GS430, and mate a version of its Synergy Drive system to the sedan's already beefy V-8. Where early hybrids, such as Toyota's breakthrough Prius, focused on delivering maximum mileage, Lexus is taking a different tack. The RX400h will trade off a bit of fuel economy to increase acceleration. And in the GS450h sedan, the emphasis will be on "pure performance," hinted Lexus General Manager Denny Clements, noting that electric motors deliver maximum torque during initial acceleration. Expect to see the hybrid roll onto the market about a year after the launch of the new, gasoline-powered GS models. - Paul A. Eisenstein
Meccadeth 03-23-2005, 02:28 PM Actually, the GS450-H will be using the 300+ hp 3.5 GR-series V6 shared with the IS350, but will be adding an electric system to it for added power and economy. It will without a doubt be the fastest factory Lexus vehicle made to date and the most fuel efficient!
:metal: :metal:
Threxx 03-23-2005, 04:00 PM This is what I based my previous statement on:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=176&sid=176&article=8296
Ah, I see. Well nobody really knew for sure, but starting a month ago pretty much everything I read said it would be the 3.5L V6 w/ the hybrid system, and the unveiling today in new york definitely confirmed that.
redzed 03-24-2005, 02:16 PM Ah, I see. Well nobody really knew for sure, but starting a month ago pretty much everything I read said it would be the 3.5L V6 w/ the hybrid system, and the unveiling today in new york definitely confirmed that.
We'll I guess that settles it.
Of course, that still doesn't explain why Lexus is chosing to make the new GS300 (245hp) far less powerful than the cheaper IS350 and even the vanila-flavored 280hp Toyota Avalon.
Threxx 03-24-2005, 05:26 PM We'll I guess that settles it.
Of course, that still doesn't explain why Lexus is chosing to make the new GS300 (245hp) far less powerful than the cheaper IS350 and even the vanila-flavored 280hp Toyota Avalon.
My personal guess is this... they didn't want the GS300 to be too close to the GS430 in terms of power. Now that the GS450H is out, and here in the next year or so the 4.3L V8 is going to be revised (I don't think it's going to be a ground-up redesign/replacement like the GR-series was to the old I6 and V6 motors) to produce quite a bit more power too... you'll most likely see the N/A 3.0 scratched or at least bumped up to 3.5 non-hybrid.
redzed 03-25-2005, 03:12 PM My personal guess is this... they didn't want the GS300 to be too close to the GS430 in terms of power.
My best guess is that Toyota benchmarked the 245 hp Lexus GS300 against the old Mercedes E320. Audi made the same mistake with the new 3.2 liter Audi A6. Now that Mercedes has upgraded to the 268hp E350, and both Audi and Lexus are offering dull and (somewhat) underpowered competitors. It's fortunate that both A6 and GS300 are significantly cheaper than the E-class - they need to be.
Of course, by the same standard I might describe the puny new IS250 as a Mercedes C240 alternative - just the sort of car that cheapskate octogenarians would like.
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