C&G on the 5th Gen Camaro

Well nearly a year ago C&G (cheersandgears) uncovered their story on the Camaro. I've believed it, as I'm a loyal member there. However, I just started posting on this site, so I'll share the information with you all. Do you all agree or disagree? Here's some of the info...

Possible Hamtramck, MI plant
V6 - 3.9L, SS - 5.3L, Z/28 - More powerful than SS
Car is in clay form and 85% of styling is complete
Comes out in 2008 on Zeta with Z/28 1-2 years later


Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63

*Mods edit this if advertising isn't allowed, but I'm not trying to advertise. Thanks.

Seems possible, but I'm not "in the know", I just lurk in here daily.

Wow, I have never heard this? This is amazing! That C&G is a great site!

Oh I forgot another HUGE piece of the puzzle from that thread...

Z/28 may have optional AWD

Z/28 may have optional AWD
That's fine.............as long as it remains optional........

I myself would never ever order or want a Camaro with all wheel drive.

They can take all those wheels and drive em up some other place....:irk:

Wow, I have never heard this? This is amazing! That C&G is a great site!
Go buy a Mustang!!11 :lol:

Oh I forgot another HUGE piece of the puzzle from that thread...

Z/28 may have optional AWD

Not a chance.

IF AWD is even part of the program, (it may get axed), it won't be available with the most powerful engine or a manual trans.

It all seems possible but with GM so SS happy I don't see the z28 being the top of the line Camaro(I can say camaro right?). ;)

FOr me if it has the camaro nameplate that is plus but not the end of the world if it does not. Top of the line z28 or ss, quite frankly I don't care provided it has ls2, 6 speed and a solid axle. Styling is just as important as the performance and price.

Didn't someone say last year that it should be beyond clay if it is going to come out in 08??

It all seems possible but with GM so SS happy I don't see the z28 being the top of the line Camaro(I can say camaro right?). ;)



Actually, that may be the only thing set in stone.

It's funny how most of that information is still old, the program has changed so much but yet....most of it is relevant again. Sort of like it all came around full circle over the past many months. This business is screwy!!

NOS, you've discovered a great site here in cz28 but I'm sure you already know it because I'm always singing it's praises.

I like the idea of the Z28 being the "top dog" again but with the way GM and Chevrolet are building up this whole "SS" extravaganza lately, I highly doubt it will happen. If the Camaro ever does happen to come back out, which I hope really happens, I bet they won't change their current trend right now and make the Z28 superior over the SS.

SS should be the loaded, top-of-the-line model...but Z-28 should have the most bang for the buck performance.

Not a chance.

IF AWD is even part of the program, (it may get axed), it won't be available with the most powerful engine or a manual trans.

Anger.

Anger.


I concur...

I actually use my cars as daily drivers, and while I've made do with RWD time and time again with little trouble (78 Grand Prix, 89 Camaro RS 5.0, 99 Z28, 04 GTO), and would like to check out an AWD Camaro, but I don't want to buy a non-performance version.

SS should be the loaded, top-of-the-line model...but Z-28 should have the most bang for the buck performance.
If I had a vote, that is how I would cast it.

The problem is the associate maintenence and cost for AWD...

add $2000-$4000 for AWD. Then realize it will be heavier.

The other issue is that AWD manual tranny cars have a tendancy to either be driven uber-light, or get abused like nobody's business. Imagine havine 275's in the front and 315's in the rear and launching it at 4000rpm on the street at a traffic light. A 385hp LS2 engine would need a VERY strong driveline to not just snap axles and such. The repair costs gm would take during the warranty period could be VERY high. Only way around it is beefier and stronger components, which are heavier, more expensive physically, and more expensive to design.

I still say nay for AWD. Look at what Supercars or Hypercars have it. After driving RWD through a couple winters you get used to it and realize AWD isnt all that great.

AWD even as an OPTION would increase tooling costs and design costs, which would spread across the whole model line. The Camaro needs to be at the Mustang pricetag (or below) and thusly I think AWD should never touch anything with a Camaro name.

AWD even as an OPTION would increase tooling costs and design costs, which would spread across the whole model line. The Camaro needs to be at the Mustang pricetag (or below) and thusly I think AWD should never touch anything with a Camaro name.
Even if the Camaro is sharing its plant with other cars on the same chassis that have AWD?

I really don't see where AWD will hurt the Camaro's image or name, especially if its only offered on a V6 model. Hell, I think the V6 is more of an abomination to the Camaro name than AWD would be...and the V6 has been there its entire life. Regardless of if its the bread and butter line-up, the V6 still brings down the Camaro's image, status, and prestige.

I remember mention that the AWD system would be rated for at least 400HP since it was mainly a Holden developed feature and would have to work on their V8 cars.

Saying an AWD option would hurt the Camaro's image is stupid. It hasn't hurt the 300 or STS. I remember a year or so back, there was a survey on the main page of the site that asked if you drive your Camaro in the snow. I am pretty sure there was some "motivation" for that poll;) If you don't want AWD, just don't get it. Camaro will already have a cost advantage over Mustang because the Gen IV engine line is much cheaper than Fords Modular V8. One thing GM is great at is bringing cars to market at great price points (after rebates), so I would not worry about Camaro not being able to compete with Mustang price wise. AWD will be a premium option...but it is not forced....so if you can't afford it, don't get it.

On another note, since the GTO already has the 6.0L I wonder if it is safe to assume the 5.3L is out on the SS, and and the mid level V8 will be the 6.0L. I could see this happening since there really is no added costs/weight for the 6.0L over the 5.3L. Plus it would give the same "shock and awe" power difference that the forth gen LT1 and LS1 had over comparable Mustang GT's. If Holden uses the 6.0L extensively, the AWD system will be able to handle it....end of story. AWD would be a great option for the next SS IMO.

That leads me to the next Z28. I think we can assume the Z28 program will be similar to the Z06 program in that we will see focus on saving weight and building an all out "total performance" road racer. That being the case, AWD likely would never be in this car. However in terms of enigine, an LS7 powered Z28 would be slower than the Z06, but still easily handle anything Ford can dish out Mustang wise. The reason I say LS7 is because unless something comes out between LS2 and LS7, it is the logical choice for an upgrade. And as we have seen, the Corvette's glass ceiling on powertrains is no more.

I remember mention that the AWD system would be rated for at least 400HP since it was mainly a Holden developed feature and would have to work on their V8 cars.

We dont know whats going on with the GMNA/Holden thing yet. That'll be figured out over the next 8 months or so I think.

I agree, the AWD wouldnt hurt, but I think that the added costs will hit the Camaro even if they use the sigma chassis. Think about it. Re-tooling the Sigma chassis to accept a powerful AWD system (and having tooling for a low power vs a high power is a really silly idea) would make the whole chassis more expensive, even without the AWD systems installed. The frame had to be clearanced, everything has to be setup to go either way. That cost will be put onto every vehicle that sits on the chassis.

Now you could say, what if GM doesnt put a big markup on the Camaro, axes some profit to make up for the higher chassis cost?

NO. Dealerships will probably be stupid and mark the Camaro up anyway. The price needs to be low, AND GM NEEDS to make a good profit on a new Camaro, to show how good it is. The games of selling cars at no profit cant continue for GM, they need the profit or they'll never improve their credit rating and overtake Toyota.

We dont know whats going on with the GMNA/Holden thing yet. That'll be figured out over the next 8 months or so I think.

I agree, the AWD wouldnt hurt, but I think that the added costs will hit the Camaro even if they use the sigma chassis. Think about it. Re-tooling the Sigma chassis to accept a powerful AWD system (and having tooling for a low power vs a high power is a really silly idea) would make the whole chassis more expensive, even without the AWD systems installed. The frame had to be clearanced, everything has to be setup to go either way. That cost will be put onto every vehicle that sits on the chassis.
Like I just said, some Zeta's will most likely be getting AWD. So if the cost is alreaddy spread out onto the Camaro anyway, why not take advantage of it?

Look back through the archives. A certain celestial body mentioned something about the Z28 coming 12-18 months later. It would be more like what the Z06 is to Corvette. :D

AWD on the V6 model would help A LOT!!!!! Biggest complant about the Camaro I hear in the North east is "they are not good in the snow" AWD V6 would aslo give it something the Mustang Doesn't have and steal sales away from AWD imports

How about making the AWD package called RS?

AWD on the V6 model would help A LOT!!!!! Biggest complant about the Camaro I hear in the North east is "they are not good in the snow" AWD V6 would aslo give it something the Mustang Doesn't have and steal sales away from AWD imports

How about making the AWD package called RS?

The RS package would be ideal. And those who say they can't drive in the snow... take it from a sixteen year old... This was my first year driving in the snow, let alone with a V6 Camaro, and it was perfectly fine. Learn to drive, ya'll...

It's funny how most of that information is still old, the program has changed so much but yet....most of it is relevant again. Sort of like it all came around full circle over the past many months. This business is screwy!!

NOS, you've discovered a great site here in cz28 but I'm sure you already know it because I'm always singing it's praises.

...So I'm learning. It's good to see such a familiar face haha :)

The RS package would be ideal. And those who say they can't drive in the snow... take it from a sixteen year old... This was my first year driving in the snow, let alone with a V6 Camaro, and it was perfectly fine. Learn to drive, ya'll...

I agree. I drove a 94 Z28 one winter and except for deep snow (which you don't really see on main roads) it was ok, but it still wasn't as good as the FWD cars i've owned.

Most people are sold on the "RWD = bad" marketing and you can't change them no matter how good a RWD car is or how much traction/stability control help on RWD cars. That is where AWD will sell cars.

...So I'm learning. It's good to see such a familiar face haha :)

Hey NOS good to see you here. This is where i (CamaroWill at C&G) have been most of the time.

anyways back on subject. I personally dont think awd would hurt Camaro's image, in fact it could possibly only help it, just so long as it is an option. and would probably be best on V6 and mid level Camaros. I think the top dawg should be RWD only and also should be called Z28..

I also think it is very important that all 3 model levels look different from one another. I think the Z28 would probably have sold nearly as well maybe more than the SS if it looked different from the V6.

However in terms of enigine, an LS7 powered Z28 would be slower than the Z06, but still easily handle anything Ford can dish out Mustang wise. The reason I say LS7 is because unless something comes out between LS2 and LS7, it is the logical choice for an upgrade. And as we have seen, the Corvette's glass ceiling on powertrains is no more.

Don't forget the L92 and its 6.2L. I think Z284ever once metioned that this would be just for trucks (correct me if I'm wrong).

also a 6.4L was originally developed to be the LS7 for the Z06. A 6.4L was also offered in the Woodward GTO. I got a feeling this isn't the last we've seen of that engine.

The problem is the associate maintenence and cost for AWD...

add $2000-$4000 for AWD. Then realize it will be heavier.

The other issue is that AWD manual tranny cars have a tendancy to either be driven uber-light, or get abused like nobody's business. Imagine havine 275's in the front and 315's in the rear and launching it at 4000rpm on the street at a traffic light. A 385hp LS2 engine would need a VERY strong driveline to not just snap axles and such. The repair costs gm would take during the warranty period could be VERY high. Only way around it is beefier and stronger components, which are heavier, more expensive physically, and more expensive to design.

I still say nay for AWD. Look at what Supercars or Hypercars have it. After driving RWD through a couple winters you get used to it and realize AWD isnt all that great.

AWD even as an OPTION would increase tooling costs and design costs, which would spread across the whole model line. The Camaro needs to be at the Mustang pricetag (or below) and thusly I think AWD should never touch anything with a Camaro name.

The drive line components dont have to be the strongest in the world for AWD. Remember that the torque is split so each end is not feeling the full fury of the engine.

Hey NOS good to see you here. This is where i (CamaroWill at C&G) have been most of the time.

Hey, Will! :)

...been working on fixing that FTP? lol

How about making the AWD package called RS?

Hey, the "R" does stand for RALLY, why not make it AWD? I think it would be great for Camaro, it would help it have something new in the public eye, and also get away from any anti-RWD image

Hey, the "R" does stand for RALLY, why not make it AWD? I think it would be great for Camaro, it would help it have something new in the public eye, and also get away from any anti-RWD image

I've always been against using names for something it wasn;t in the past...

But, this is the one case where I think it would be perfect...

RS fits an AWD Camaro wonderfully.

I am REALLY liking this RS idea.

AWD, SC 3.9L, boosted suspension components for a few thousand more than the base model. :)

GM is putting their heads up their asses if they dont make AWD options on all Zeta cars. Didnt Ford just report higher than anticipated AWD sales?

Further, there's a reason Fbody and Mustang guys bitch that EVOs and STIs get lumped into ESP in autox and they run just as fast with less mods. I cant imagine how fun it would be to drive a 400 hp awd Camaro with 275s on all corners.

...
FOr me if it has the camaro nameplate that is plus but not the end of the world if it does not. Top of the line z28 or ss, quite frankly I don't care provided it has ls2, 6 speed and a solid axle. ...

There will NOT be a live axle on the Camaro. You can take that to the bank.

Remember the Holden SSX (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20005)

I never really understood why they poured money into developing this car then never used it?

i think an awd v6 RS while maybe adding something new and refreshing to the line up would take away the entry level of the camaro. it seems to me like one model having awd while the others have rwd is pointless. maybe an awd v6 would be a cool idea but it seems best as a all new gm car imo...

There will NOT be a live axle on the Camaro. You can take that to the bank.

Absolutely correct. I've said this many times.....the last live rear axle Camaro has already been built.

Hey, Will! :)

...been working on fixing that FTP? lol

It's broken again? uggh wtf. ill get to it in a little bit

Z284Ever...

In the SSX articles, they never metion (I think, perhaps my reading level is low) what platform the SSX was built off of. I assumed a modified V-platform, but 2002 was when Sigma came around. Could the SSX have dipped into the Sigma parts bin?

Z284Ever...

In the SSX articles, they never metion (I think, perhaps my reading level is low) what platform the SSX was built off of. I assumed a modified V-platform, but 2002 was when Sigma came around. Could the SSX have dipped into the Sigma parts bin?


AFAIK, that was pure V-car. In fact, I believe the donor car was a standard Commodore.

It's broken again? uggh wtf. ill get to it in a little bit
Oh, damn, I lied. I didn't realize you got it fixed the first time. Sorry, mate. :)

threads like this make me have more faith :)

Hmmm...

RWD 400+hp V8 Camaro Z28 as my summer car.
AWD 250+hp V6 Camaro RS as my winter car.

I think I could handle that. :)

Don't forget the L92 and its 6.2L. I think Z284ever once metioned that this would be just for trucks (correct me if I'm wrong).



I can't remember what I said......but if I said anything it would have been, it will NOT be just for trucks.

Keep your eye on this motor ;) .......................

threads like this make me have more faith :)

I agree. I paged through this thread looking for a response from Guy or even Red saying it's way off base. The fact that neither has jumped in is encouraging :)

I agree. I paged through this thread looking for a response from Guy or even Red saying it's way off base. The fact that neither has jumped in is encouraging :)

Well Red has been posted in a while. I dunno if he is around or not. I'm going to try and met him at the North Texas F-Body Spring GTG.

I'm surprised Guy has not said anything i here yet. These are usually his threads. ;)

If the camaro design is still in clay form as someone supposedly "in the know" claimed several months ago on this board;, that has gotta be some dry crusted up clay by now... Hopefully it has been reproduced in foam or wood form... if they even still use wood for mock ups :think:

If the camaro design is still in clay form as someone supposedly "in the know" claimed several months ago on this board;, that has gotta be some dry crusted up clay by now... Hopefully it has been reproduced in foam or wood form... if they even still use wood for mock ups :think:

They clay stays fresh when you keep resculpting it.

Don't they have computers now days that project 3-D images and simulations? I'm sure they still do a clay model, but I'd imagine they don't spend as much time on it as they used to.

Well, they use 3D programs similar if not exactly like autoCAD to cut out 3D things on clay, but I think they still do it by hand too.

Don't forget the L92 and its 6.2L. I think Z284ever once metioned that this would be just for trucks (correct me if I'm wrong).

also a 6.4L was originally developed to be the LS7 for the Z06. A 6.4L was also offered in the Woodward GTO. I got a feeling this isn't the last we've seen of that engine.

I believe your feeling is justified.

They clay stays fresh when you keep resculpting it.

I think this is a VERY good thing ;)

I think this is a VERY good thing ;)

They can sculpt all they freaking want. They're still a day late and a dollar short. Ford is wiping the floor with them in this type of market, because of their own bad judgment, and theres nothing they can do right now to help it. :mad:

Hey Z284Ever, Didn't we discuss the Camaro RS as a true AWD Rally car about a year ago? :D

Hello there. This is my first post, hope ya guys don't mind me jumping in. Several years ago when I was dreaming about what a 'perfect' sports car would be, I speculated on whether it would have AWD. Looking at some of other cars that have that feature, like the Subaru Outback, they seem to tout that fact, as if it gave them a jump on the competition. What would be wrong with a sporty car having AWD? Just wondering.... :shrug:

I might be wrong, but I don't believe you get such a rush from accelerating in an AWD car. It doesn't pin you back into your seat in comparison to a RWD car. It will pin you back, but the rear end won't sink down as much when it does so as a RWD car.

I'm not completely against it, I just know I don't want AWD. It costs a lot of money to have those 3 differentials and other parts.

Plus, I'm not sure if I would like feeling the power of the front wheels spinning when I drive. I would think AWD would have certain design restrictions that I wouldn't appreciate also. Can you imagine a C4 Corvette or 4th gen f-body with AWD? it would probably make your feet go numb. The only recent low slung and sleek AWD car was the Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4, but I have never ridden in one to know if the interior had to be weird to compensate for the AWD. I sure as hell know I don't want to be driving sitting upright like you do in a Subaru or Lancer, and I don't want the car looking like a box either, so my inclination is to say no to AWD.

There needs to be an LS7 option for a new Camaro. :metal:

Hey Z284Ever, Didn't we discuss the Camaro RS as a true AWD Rally car about a year ago? :D

Yeah, this thread is sort of a re-run, but at least we're discussing a 5th gen for a change.

Don't they have computers now days that project 3-D images and simulations? I'm sure they still do a clay model, but I'd imagine they don't spend as much time on it as they used to.

The clays are every bit as important as the intial sketchs and auto cad . Most final "detail" desicions are made during the clay modeling process , because you can actually see a real life version .

I'm surprised Guy has not said anything i here yet. These are usually his threads. ;)

It was only a matter of time. ;)

I remember mention that the AWD system would be rated for at least 400HP since it was mainly a Holden developed feature and would have to work on their V8 cars.

Actually, it's not the HP, it's the torque.

That leads me to the next Z28. I think we can assume the Z28 program will be similar to the Z06 program in that we will see focus on saving weight and building an all out "total performance" road racer.

That's the vibes I'm getting.


We dont know whats going on with the GMNA/Holden thing yet. That'll be figured out over the next 8 months or so I think.

Ditto

I agree, the AWD wouldnt hurt, but I think that the added costs will hit the Camaro even if they use the sigma chassis. Think about it. Re-tooling the Sigma chassis to accept a powerful AWD system (and having tooling for a low power vs a high power is a really silly idea) would make the whole chassis more expensive, even without the AWD systems installed. The frame had to be clearanced, everything has to be setup to go either way. That cost will be put onto every vehicle that sits on the chassis.

Look at the new STS. It has optional AWD. ;)

NO. Dealerships will probably be stupid and mark the Camaro up anyway.

That's a very safe bet. If there's anything that's a 100%, bonafide, complete certainty, it's that dealers are going to mark up the snot out of the next Camaro when it comes. Just like they did the GTO, just like they are likely to do with the Solstice. GM generally exercises less influence on dealer pricing than Ford or Chrysler tends to, so if you want an early 5th gen Camaro, bring lots of Vasiline.... and don't expect dinner first.

Remember the Holden SSX (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20005)

I never really understood why they poured money into developing this car then never used it?

The system's in use in the Holden Aventra, The Holden Crewman Cross 6 and Cross 8, the HSV coupe 4, the Holden Avalanche & HSV Avalanche XUV, and a version of it is under the Sigma chassis of the all new Cadillac STS AWD.

All Holdens use the same chassis.

Sigma, Zeta, and the "V" chassis have some things in common. ;)

I'll be getting whatever the top model is.

SS or Z28, it doesn't matter. It's unfortunate i'll probably have to wait a year or so after the Camaro debuts to get one.

well what nobody is coming to realize is that GM is prolly having an extremely tough time with the new camaro...First off the consumer is wanting a camaro to compete/beat any mustang (up to cobra) well to do that in 07/08 the camaro has to be around 500hp...then everyone wants it to be comparable in price to the mustang I.E. $20k to $30k...now heres the problem...whats gonna happen to the c6 and z06 corvette sales???????? IMO its gonna be the same as the 4th gen...4th gen SS and z28s are gonna come to close to the vette and z06 for $20k cheaper and GM is just going to kill the program again. Dont get me wrong ill be in line just like the rest of yall for the new camaro, but how long it lasts is gonna be the next order of business.

I think the AWD should be an option on the v6 as well. Granted, the v6 ain't as fast as the v8's, but the v6s have a good deal of power too, and are more affordable for the younger folk that can't afford the v8 insurance. I drive a v6, bought it when I was 16, and it's plenty fast enough for me to not get me in trouble all the time. Secondly, anyone that says a RWD doesn't drive in snow is insane and needs to learn how to drive, I drive my v6 as the daily driver in MI and I have not gotten stuck yet, and my sub didn't plow until 2 or 3 days after each heavy snow fall.

Back on track with the 5th gen, AWD is an interesting idea but I think it should remain optional... let the people who are die hard RWD fans stay true, regardless of v6 or v8. ;)

It would be nice for an "LT" model with luxury appointments, combined with a hi-po HFV6 or perhaps a Northstar V8 with 6spd auto and AWD...sorry, I just woke up and the wheels are turning.

They can sculpt all they freaking want. They're still a day late and a dollar short. Ford is wiping the floor with them in this type of market, because of their own bad judgment, and theres nothing they can do right now to help it. :mad:


A day late, definetly. A dollar short, how do you know this? You can't say anything about the car being cheap or a letdown until it debutes.

The bad judgement of GM's previous manamgent got us into this situation. I believe the current manamgent is going to get us our Camaro. They are doing something right now, they're developing an all-new RWD platform.

Yeah, this thread is sort of a re-run, but at least we're discussing a 5th gen for a change.

Very true. This forum was gloomy for a long time.

Anyhow, I think optional AWD would be great for the Camaro. The Mustang is getting ready to receive some form of removable roof, so the Camaro could space itself from the Mustang again by offering AWD. It would be a GREAT option for v6 buyers and the badge rally sport would actually hold some truth to it. Not to mention you bring over a breed of enthusiast that would've never looked at a Camaro in the first place.

I say if it can be done and remain optional, do it. :cool:

I think the AWD should be an option on the v6 as well. Granted, the v6 ain't as fast as the v8's, but the v6s have a good deal of power too, and are more affordable for the younger folk that can't afford the v8 insurance. I drive a v6, bought it when I was 16, and it's plenty fast enough for me to not get me in trouble all the time. Secondly, anyone that says a RWD doesn't drive in snow is insane and needs to learn how to drive, I drive my v6 as the daily driver in MI and I have not gotten stuck yet, and my sub didn't plow until 2 or 3 days after each heavy snow fall.

Back on track with the 5th gen, AWD is an interesting idea but I think it should remain optional... let the people who are die hard RWD fans stay true, regardless of v6 or v8. ;)


I sort of agree with you, but try driving around in the snow with high performance z rated wide tires. I can't count the amount of times on both hands I have gotten stuck going up hills, and have had to have passenger/passengers get out and push. Even the stock GSC aren't that great in the snow. Never driven a v6 though.

There will NOT be a live axle on the Camaro. You can take that to the bank.
thank the gods! just when i was about to lose any remaining respect for GM