Poll: Cadillac BLS - Your "Saab-illac" Has Arrived?

The big question is whether GM is going too far with "platform sharing" and badge-engineering. Currently we have the "Saab-aru" 9-2X, the "Saab-lazer" 9-7X, the "Chevre-woo" Aveo and a whole slate of Korean-built "Suzuki-woos." Even Cadillac has sinned by offering reworked Chevy's like the "Escal-ahoe", the "Escala-burban ESV" and the "Escal-anche EXT." Did I leave out the "Caddi-vette XLR?"

Still, the Cadillac BLS is a particularly depressing sign of things-to-come for three reasons:

1. The appearance of the Epsilon-based BLS is pretty much an admission that the Cadillac CTS isn't a viable 3-series competitor. The CTS too big for Europe and it's too expensive compared to 3-series challengers like the Infiniti G35. It's now apparent that the upcoming second generation CTS will become larger and even closer to the STS in size and price.

2. The BLS is also a break with Zarella's largely successful turn-around plan for Cadillac. The concept of a Sigma-exclusive line of Cadillac sedans and crossover SUVs is dead.

3. Instead of getting a badge with a T in the middle - which stands for "Touring" in the Cadillac lexicon, the littlest Caddy gets an L for "luxury." The Cadillac BLS looks like a repeat of the formula that made Jaguar's X-type a flop. A mass market FWD-platform is the starting point for a successful BMW 3-series competitor. Perhaps a company like Peugeot can pull it off, but not GM or Ford. You would have thought that all of those Opel-based Saabs would have proven that to GM's upper-level management?

In any case, let's avoid comparisons between the 1982 Cadillac Cimmaron and the 2006 Cadillac BLS.

You forgot to put an actual poll in your "Poll:" thread. :think:
:no:

You forgot to put an actual poll in your "Poll:" thread. :think:
:no:

Nah, I typed in the poll but it didn't post.

I vote for the option that says:
"Anything that redzed posts is total garbage"

1. The appearance of the Epsilon-based BLS is pretty much an admission that the Cadillac CTS isn't a viable 3-series competitor. The CTS too big for Europe and it's too expensive compared to 3-series challengers like the Infiniti G35. It's now apparent that the upcoming second generation CTS will become larger and even closer to the STS in size and price.

I fail to see the problem here. Some people see the CTS as bigger and want something smaller. As the CTS increases in size, getting something smaller is a bad idea why?

2. The BLS is also a break with Zarella's largely successful turn-around plan for Cadillac. The concept of a Sigma-exclusive line of Cadillac sedans and crossover SUVs is dead.

Again, why? The average consumer has no clue what a chassis is, and more then that hearing "f-car" "sigma" "zeta" or anything else means nothing. If the sigma chassis is used widespread and no longer exclusive, that might be a good thing. It could allow the cadillacs to reduce costs and improve quality in the issues they have, as well as increasing quality across the entire Sigma chassis line. There is nothing wrong with that... You of all people have no knowledge of what's going on, so stop acting like you do.

A mass market FWD-platform is the starting point for a successful BMW 3-series competitor.

Where in gods name do you come up with this? The 3 series is a VERY potent car, and there is NOTHING that any FWD car can do that will compare. Espicially when you hit the M series. The 3 series heritage back to the "Batmobile" and beyond is something you cannot face unless you fight hardcore fire with fire. Going head to head with a direct 3 series match will be a long and hard uphill battle. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

What else is new?

EDIT:

Oh, and Redzed - do us all a favor before you post your un-verified and poorly backed rants about whatever you think you know and dont - read the forums. Cause you will see there is a post already on the BLS in the forums. Looks like this is a repost too...

Nah, I typed in the poll but it didn't post.


:lol:

Ya, it was obviously a software failure, and not a user failure.... :think: :no: :lol:

There's nothing even in your post that relates to anything to have a poll about... you are just GM bashing as usual. :tired:

Not only that but all the stuff you he mentioned is rampant among all domestic and many foreign auto makers and has been for quite some time. This is nothing new, and a poll, or "non-poll" on it is useless because GM and everyone else is giong to keep doing what they do. :think:

1) platform sharing and badge-engineering are NOT the same thing.

2) platform sharing only really matters on paper if done right (exp. SSR/TrailBlazer, VWbug/Golf/TT, H2/Silverado) lack of platform sharing is what killed the Camaro.

3) next CTS will be a little smaller

4) Cars like the Pontiac G8 and possible Kappa Sedan will compete in the under $30K RWD sedan niche. Real lux cars don't cost under $30K

5) BMW 3 series is an 800lbs. Gorilla, I don't see it being knock off its thrown in Europe by a non-german car or FWD

You talk about the reskinned Escalade, then complain about reskins, then praise Zarella's successful Cadillac turn-around, which was fueled by the reskinned Escalade.

*edit - all that said, I agree with (what I believe to be) the premise of your Cadillac argument. I would love to see a rwd car which looks like that on a kappa/beta platform.

1) platform sharing and badge-engineering are NOT the same thing.

So is an Escalade a "badge-engineered" Cadillac or an example of "platform sharing.?" It's all in the eye of the beholder - and GM be holdin' some big per unit profits.


2) platform sharing only really matters on paper if done right (exp. SSR/TrailBlazer, VWbug/Golf/TT, H2/Silverado) lack of platform sharing is what killed the Camaro.

The SSR is heavy and expensive, the H2 is heavy and expensive....

3) next CTS will be a little smaller

Actually, the next CTS will be a bit bigger and will be pitched directly against the BMW 5-series. Expect yet another price increase.

4) Cars like the Pontiac G8 and possible Kappa Sedan will compete in the under $30K RWD sedan niche. Real lux cars don't cost under $30K

a) I'm really wondering about the future of the so-called Kappa sedan (AKA: Beta). The appearance of the Epsilon-based BLS indicates that it's either been cancelled or won't appear for a very, very long time.

b) I don't think that the status of "real lux cars" have anything to do with a specific pricepoint. You're talking like a guy that drives a $80K Mercedes S-class.

5) BMW 3 series is an 800lbs. Gorilla, I don't see it being knock off its thrown in Europe by a non-german car or FWD

Actually, the upcoming Lexus IS350 might just take a swing.

I fail to see the problem here. Some people see the CTS as bigger and want something smaller. As the CTS increases in size, getting something smaller is a bad idea why?

The problem is that Epsilon-based BLS is going to be Caddy's direct competitor for the 3-series (the same role the CTS had when it premiered) while the CTS will shift towards the 5-series. The theory is called "Less Car for the Money.":lol:




Again, why? The average consumer has no clue what a chassis is, and more then that hearing "f-car" "sigma" "zeta" or anything else means nothing. If the sigma chassis is used widespread and no longer exclusive, that might be a good thing. It could allow the cadillacs to reduce costs and improve quality in the issues they have, as well as increasing quality across the entire Sigma chassis line. There is nothing wrong with that... You of all people have no knowledge of what's going on, so stop acting like you do.

Actually, plans to make the Sigma "more widespread" foundered on issues of excessive cost and inflexibility. The whole point of this post is that the same platform the underpins the Malibu and G6 is getting "promoted" upmarket - not that Sigma is getting "demoted."




Where in gods name do you come up with this? The 3 series is a VERY potent car, and there is NOTHING that any FWD car can do that will compare. Espicially when you hit the M series. The 3 series heritage back to the "Batmobile" and beyond is something you cannot face unless you fight hardcore fire with fire. Going head to head with a direct 3 series match will be a long and hard uphill battle. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
What else is new?

EDIT:

Oh, and Redzed - do us all a favor before you post your un-verified and poorly backed rants about whatever you think you know and dont - read the forums. Cause you will see there is a post already on the BLS in the forums. Looks like this is a repost too...

1. I think I said that no GM or Ford FWD platform can take on a 3-series. However, there are Peugeots.....

2. I also think it's more useful to look at the Cadillac BLS in the context of badge-engineering than as an individual product. That's why I started this thread.

Should I have typed:

A mass market FWD-platform is NOT the starting point for a successful BMW 3-series competitor.

...Or maybe?

A mass market FWD-platform is the starting point for a successful BMW 3-series competitor?

All I know is that Ford doesn't have the audacity to attempt to sell the Mazda 6-based Lincoln Zephyr in Europe.

Actually 1) whoo really cares . This is a car that will not be sold in the US .

aaaaand , number 2

Let us not forget , to add to your GM list , a more idustry wide sampling of platform sharing aaand badge engineering....mmmmmmmk ;)

lincord Expinator
lexyota pathfindtheRX430
lexyota ESamry300
chyseep Grand Chrerango
Hondcura Accortsx
Hondcura RSivic
lincord marquienentalowncar

The only reason GM gets the brunt is they simply have more high volume divisions than Ford , Toyota , Honda ect. ect. ect.

:tired:

So is an Escalade a "badge-engineered" Cadillac or an example of "platform sharing.?" It's all in the eye of the beholder - and GM be holdin' some big per unit profits.

I'd say that one is right on the edge, it has enough of it's own content to not be a badge jobbed Tahoe



The SSR is heavy and expensive, the H2 is heavy and expensive....

They are both niche trucks aimed at a those with money. what does that have to do with badge-engineered or platform sharing?


Actually, the next CTS will be a bit bigger and will be pitched directly against the BMW 5-series. Expect yet another price increase.

Every thing I have read said the CTS was going a little smaller, if that changed where did you get your info from? can anyone else back this up? Bigger/smaller/same?



a) I'm really wondering about the future of the so-called Kappa sedan (AKA: Beta). The appearance of the Epsilon-based BLS indicates that it's either been cancelled or won't appear for a very, very long time.

b) I don't think that the status of "real lux cars" have anything to do with a specific pricepoint. You're talking like a guy that drives a $80K Mercedes S-class.

The Kappa plant has the capacity for 200,000+ but is only going to be making 50K-60K cars. Sounds like something is planned, hopfully more clues will be avalible by Solstice release.

US Gov't defines a lux car as one that cost over $40K. To me a luxury car is one that isn't mainstream cost more than the avg sedan, and offers features not found on everyday $20K-$30K sedans. How is a TSX better than a loaded Accord???? A FWD $28K-35K car is near-lux



Actually, the upcoming Lexus IS350 might just take a swing.

Everyone is going to be taking swings at the 3 series, but its a moving target with the all new 2006 out soon.

I had an interesting conversation on the BLS with someone very high up in GM's decision making chain of command.

I mentioned that a BLS sized RWD product would be preferable in Cadillac's portfolio, (actually I was pressing for a BLS sized RWD platform more for Chevy ;) than for Caddy....but that's a whole different story). They agreed that in a perfect world such a product would be preferable. However they needed BLS for Europe quickly. They also needed a platform that offered right hand drive and a diesel. These last two features can be brought to market at virtually no cost, by basing this new Caddy off of a Saab 9-3.

Reverting to FWD is a risky proposition......but it is a quick and inexpensive solution. Hopefully it'll be a good move. Aesthetically at least, the car looks much better than I expected.....but the Jag X-Type analogy still looms large.

Every thing I have read said the CTS was going a little smaller, if that changed where did you get your info from? can anyone else back this up? Bigger/smaller/same?






I've also heard that the next CTS will be alittle smaller.

I've also heard that the next CTS will be alittle smaller.
A little smaller, huh? I would assume a little shorter as part of that? If the CTS were about 3 inches shorter (with a mating 3 inch shorter firewall) it would be a pretty good fit for a "C" car, wouldn't it? What year does the next CTS debut? 2008? Hmm...

I really REALLY REALLY hope Cadillac makes a "CTC". (Coupe version of the CTS)

I really REALLY REALLY hope Cadillac makes a "CTC". (Coupe version of the CTS)
I would think that could virtually lock a sporty Chevy coupe. Caddy needs a coupe, and I think it will get it in the next gen Sigma.

I would think that could virtually lock a sporty Chevy coupe. Caddy needs a coupe, and I think it will get it in the next gen Sigma.


I agree... it would all seem to fit together nicely. :)

I really REALLY REALLY hope Cadillac makes a "CTC". (Coupe version of the CTS)

The question is, would that be aimed at the 3 series or the 5 series? Either way a really nice coupe would be an incredible asset to Cadillac's lineup. An XLR V is a 440hp blown v8, and the CTS gets the 400hp pushrod v8. Honestly I'd rather have the supercharged engine, but living as a 2 door CTS, that would probably keep it with the CTS's engine options.

I always thought the CTS and STS were too close in size. If the CTS got larger, then the STS would need to get larger. But if the CTS gets smaller (which I too heard) then that would be very sweet.

A smaller CTS coupe with a shorter firewall would certainly be an interesting vehicle. Though I dont think Cadillac should/would do it (too sporty for a touring coupe) it would show the flexibility....

wait. Didnt Cadillac already prototype a shorter firewall on the sigma chassis? :D

The question is, would that be aimed at the 3 series or the 5 series? Either way a really nice coupe would be an incredible asset to Cadillac's lineup. An XLR V is a 440hp blown v8, and the CTS gets the 400hp pushrod v8. Honestly I'd rather have the supercharged engine, but living as a 2 door CTS, that would probably keep it with the CTS's engine options.

I always thought the CTS and STS were too close in size. If the CTS got larger, then the STS would need to get larger. But if the CTS gets smaller (which I too heard) then that would be very sweet.

A smaller CTS coupe with a shorter firewall would certainly be an interesting vehicle. Though I dont think Cadillac should/would do it (too sporty for a touring coupe) it would show the flexibility....

wait. Didnt Cadillac already prototype a shorter firewall on the sigma chassis? :D

Yes! AND it was looked at VERY highly for the next Camaro. I believe that Z284ever can confirm this cars existance.

I love the way we hijacked this thread. It couldn't have happened to a better person... ;)

I love the way we hijacked this thread. It couldn't have happened to a better person... ;)

:lol: :D

Ya, it's hard, no matter how hard one may try, to sustain a lot of Cadillac bashing right now. :)

A little smaller, huh? I would assume a little shorter as part of that? If the CTS were about 3 inches shorter (with a mating 3 inch shorter firewall) it would be a pretty good fit for a "C" car, wouldn't it? What year does the next CTS debut? 2008? Hmm...

Well, alittle smaller....but not as small as a 3 series.

Here's where we get into political issues. There are some at GM who feel Americans will never pay premium money for a car smaller than a CTS. That's one reason that the BLS will not come here.

This whole argument is completely full of holes though, since the US is BMW's largest 3 series market and I believe MB's largest C-class market.

Although I'd prefer a RWD, I'd definitely take a look at the BLS if it were available here.....especially with the turbo 2.8L V6.

Well, alittle smaller....but not as small as a 3 series.

Here's where we get into political issues. There are some at GM who feel Americans will never pay premium money for a car smaller than a CTS. That's one reason that the BLS will not come here.

This whole argument is completely full of holes though, since the US is BMW's largest 3 series market and I believe MB's largest C-class market.

Although I'd prefer a RWD, I'd definitely take a look at the BLS if it were available here.....especially with the turbo 2.8L V6.
But would a LS2 fit in a BLS? That might be a tighter fit than in the 4th gen.

But would a LS2 fit in a BLS? That might be a tighter fit than in the 4th gen.

Well BLS is based on Epsilon, so it doesn't fit our ponycar purposes......but if a Sigma or "Beta" RWD were made in the BLS's size........... then YES!, and probably fit better than in a 4th gen.

If they could bring to market a $35k CTC, that would hit right home at the G35 Coupe market. As some here know, I am a die-hard American car fan, but I'd be willing to give up a body part for a G35 Coupe. I think its simply the most attractive car on the market anywhere under $50k...period. It would be a huge asset to Cadillac's image to have a car like that available. Even if it didn't sell in huge numbers, it would go a long way for the image. I'm in no position to buy a car like that for several years to come, but someday if one was available...

The biggest problem with CTS in Europe is price and lack of a big enough dealer network.

In North America, Mercedes BMW and Audi sell very highly contented vehicles in the "C" class - which makes the CTS a suitable competitor. In Europe, the cars are basically stripped down versions of what we have here. Yes, you can get 3-series cars with manual seat tracks all the way around and "roll down your own, bub" windows and anemic 4 cylinder engines (as in the 1.8 liters of 140hp raging fury I got in a rental Z3 once in Germany - the car wouldn't get out of it's own way on the Autobahn).

CTS has no real stripped down version - they're all pretty highly contented cars, which prices them out of the "C" class market and puts them into the 5-series territory.

The last I heard, the "baby Caddy" would be offered with AWD.

Vehicle-wise, Cadillac is now ideally positioned to assault Europe. What they need now is an extensive enough dealer network to get the job done. I was thinking of this very thing last night, and pondered the use of Opel's network as ideal. Basically you'd split the dealerships into Opel and Cadillac halves and inform the dealers of differences in service, presentation and customer treatment, such as:

1) If a Cadillac comes in for warranty work, it gets fixed - LIKE NOW, with no "they all do that" junk, and the warranty is extended for the system worked on. If the warranty is 5 years/50,000 miles and someone brings in their Caddy for a problem at 4 years and 30,000 miles, the system is covered for the next 5 years and 50,000 miles (so the system in question would be covered until 9 years/80,000 miles).

2) One does not give a Cadillac owner a low-end Opel/Fiat/Volkswagen for a rental car. He/she gets a Cadillac - preferably one a step up from his current car (BLS owner gets a CTS, CTS owner gets an STS, STS owner gets an XLR... XLR gets whatever he/she wants). V-series owners get V-series cars as rental. Expensive? TOUGH. Want to be "The Standard of the World" or NO?

3) Service goes OUT OF IT'S WAY to make a Cadillac owner happy. Wash the car, fill it with gas, detail it, you name it... You want to make the experience of owning a Cadillac somewhat akin to being worshipped.

4) Warranty - longer, better, faster.

Pricey? You bet. Want to be taken seriously? I think that the above is worth it.

Have all kinds of commercials on the air that say, in a nutshell:

"Cadillac, we stand behind our name. We stand behind our cars."

I had an interesting conversation on the BLS with someone very high up in GM's decision making chain of command.

I mentioned that a BLS sized RWD product would be preferable in Cadillac's portfolio, (actually I was pressing for a BLS sized RWD platform more for Chevy ;) than for Caddy....but that's a whole different story). They agreed that in a perfect world such a product would be preferable. However they needed BLS for Europe quickly..

The need to have a smaller, Europe-only Cadillac "quickly" puzzles me because Cadillac doesn't have effective distribution or even name recognition in Europe.

They also needed a platform that offered right hand drive and a diesel. These last two features can be brought to market at virtually no cost, by basing this new Caddy off of a Saab 9-3..

I still think that the Epsilon-Cadillac is proof positive that the so-called RWD Beta-platform isn't coming any time soon - or at all.

(Or maybe it was a project pitched by Swedish engineers who were desperate to preserve Saab's engineering and production capacity. Or maybe just the engineering capactity.)


Reverting to FWD is a risky proposition......but it is a quick and inexpensive solution. Hopefully it'll be a good move. Aesthetically at least, the car looks much better than I expected.....but the Jag X-Type analogy still looms large.

A bigger risk is that fact that the BLS is the same size as the X-type. It's six inches longer than the new 3-series. Jaguar made this sizing decision because of the American market, but I can't imagine why GM would have repeated it for a Europe-only car?

My suspicion is that the BLS was never intended as a Europe-only car. Maybe plans were changed by the current strength of the Euro. Perhaps plans haven't been changed and we'll see an American Cadillac BLS produced along side the Malibu and G6? A Chinese production line?

There's more to this story.

The need to have a smaller, Europe-only Cadillac "quickly" puzzles me because Cadillac doesn't have effective distribution or even name recognition in Europe.

Although Cadillac does have some distribution issues to work out in Europe, the fact that they didn't have what Europeans consider a medium sized car to sell, took center stage. The CTS is considered a large car in Europe and Asia. It's in the same size class as the 5 series and E-class.....I think it's even physically bigger than those cars.

Although Cadillac does have some distribution issues to work out in Europe, the fact that they didn't have what Europeans consider a medium sized car to sell, took center stage.

The lack of a dealership network, name recognition and credible resale values should have taken "center stage" over a clumsy product that will fool very few Europeans.

The CTS is considered a large car in Europe and Asia. It's in the same size class as the 5 series and E-class.....I think it's even physically bigger than those cars.

The CTS is significantly larger than the last generation 5-series and E-class. However, GM failed to plan ahead for the (very predictable) growth of the BMW and Mercedes.

Of course, the CTS started out as a 3-series challenging Catera competitor and an Opel Omega replacement for Europe. Then Lutz pulled European distribution because of certain "quality" issues.....