200x Mustang Mach 1 vs Me :)

Well a friend of mine has a mustang mach 1, i forget what year it is but its really nice for a stang. Its stock and has the shaker hood. So when i was leaving work i pulled up behind him, exchanged afew revs and got side by side. He told me it runs a 13.7 stock(he has never taken it to the track)so i figured it would be an easy kill. So we start from a 25mph roll(i have a stock clutch and dont want to kill it yet so we went from a roll) He had me at first due to the street being damp and me sideways 1st through 3rd. We tryed it 1 more time and i eased into the throttle instead of just slamming it and man was it one of the best races i was ever in. I kept looking over and his headlights were even to the back of my door. I still feel i could of done better due to the traction but we took it to about 110 and he stopped. We both have manuals but it seemed like he had better traction then me.

Anyways i was wondering whats the difference between the 200x mustang GT's, Mach 1's and Cobras. His car was suprisingly fast and i was thinking since i did my mods i could take cobra's and srt-4 neons but im doubting that since he did pretty well. :(

He had me at first due to the street being damp and me sideways 1st through 3rd.


Racing on wet/damp pavement :confused:
Anyway, Mach 1s run good from what I have read/seen.
Try one again on dry pavement.
You have more than enough done to your car to give a stock Mach 1 a loss.

Anyways i was wondering whats the difference between the 200x mustang GT's, Mach 1's and Cobras. His car was suprisingly fast and i was thinking since i did my mods i could take cobra's and srt-4 neons but im doubting that since he did pretty well. :(

1999 ~ 2004 GT was the 2V 4.6 rated at 265 HP
1999, 2001 Cobra was the 4V 4.6 rated at 320 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Cobra was the Supercharged 4V 4.6 rated at 385 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Mach 1 pretty much had the N/A Cobra engine rated at 305 HP.

If I got some of these confused, please someone correct me ;)

Yea the streets were dry out that day and when i got out of work my windows were all fogged up and i wasint checking the street out much. My car barley breaks traction in first(unless i want it to)and only chirps second, nothing in 3rd on street tires. I remember when my car was stock i would kill GT's but the cobras raped me. I still beat him but he was a little closer to me then i wanted. So a mach 1 is basically a NA cobra instead of a S/C one?

They're supposed to be, but somehow they're much quicker than the old non-SCed Cobras. It's like the Mach 1 is the Mustang that Ford should have been building the entire time.

1999 ~ 2004 GT was the 2V 4.6 rated at 265 HP
1999, 2001 Cobra was the 4V 4.6 rated at 320 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Cobra was the Supercharged 4V 4.6 rated at 385 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Mach 1 pretty much had the N/A Cobra engine rated at 305 HP.

If I got some of these confused, please someone correct me ;)Thought the 03/04 cobras were 395....Mach 1's are a few tenths faster then the 99/01 Cobras, manuals shouldnt have much of a problem running lower 13's .The 03/04 Cobras have ran in the lower/mid 12's @ 112-115mph

the original post mentioned srt-4 neon. are they supposed to be a bad car? any info on them?

the original post mentioned srt-4 neon. are they supposed to be a bad car? any info on them?They run LT1 like times stock...and get fast pretty easily... think theres 3 stages of performance mods

. He told me it runs a 13.7 stock(he has never taken it to the track) :(

How in the world does he know it runs a 13.7 then?

Mine was turning 13.30s all day long bone stock with full weight.

Add 4.30s and instant 12s.

From what info he has on his car i guess is how he knows. Just like if you bought a stock 94 z and someone asked you what thoes run you would most likley say a low 14.

As for the neon srt-4 i raced one in my area when my car was stock and ran a 14.4 and the guy pretty much killed me. Had about a car length on me and said it runs low 13's. Their are many in my area and its impossible to resist raceing them. I really dont want an upset going head to head with one of thoes things.

Mikie, didnt realise you owned a Mach 1. Well he just bought it last summer brand new so its a 04/05. What are the differences in thoes 2 years for the Mach 1? I doubt his car would run a 13.30, im expecting low 13's with my setup and thats with the 2.73 gears and stock clutch.

The Mach was realeased in 03 and carried over to 04. Those are the only two year models and they are identical in performance. There are a few slight cosmetic differences though.

If your Z runs low 13s and he is stock then its gonna be a drivers race.
If someone gets behind the wheel of the Mach and shifts regular with letting out fully on the clutch then yes he will run high 13s. These cars are meant to be shifted at 6,000 rpms while still in the gas go to the next gear.
The Mach can go close to 6,900 rpms so powershifting keeps the rpms up and they love it.


Later
Mike

Those 2.73 gears with the T-56 are KILLING you. Get some 3.73s or 4.10s in there.

I was running mid 12s @ 111 with a setup nearly identical to yours. You should easily pull a stock Mach 1.

LOL he knows it runs a 13.7 the same way the import drivers know their cars run 10s

SMoked you should have an easy victory here man. Your cammed and you think you run low 13's?hmm..somethings wrong. You should have been pulling that mach.

How in the world does he know it runs a 13.7 then?

Mine was turning 13.30s all day long bone stock with full weight.

Add 4.30s and instant 12s.
What was your trap speeds for your 13.3? Nice 60's..I guess the new Ponies have Great suspension.The machs I have seen run have been between 13.5-14.0. A guy ran a 14.0" Auto" last year and there was another guy busting out 13.5's in a stick. I
f I could have pulled that sixty in my TA I would have ran a 12 in stock form.
I couldnt do better then a 2.2 :cry: :cry: :cry:
My buddy's 02GT seems to grab pretty well as well. Do tha mach's have a different suspension setup?

My buddy's 02GT seems to grab pretty well as well. Do tha mach's have a different suspension setup?

My Stang doesn't grab for sh** with these 225 tires. Even my heated DRs spin if I launch over 3000 rpm. But I don't have a line lock, so I can't get them really hot. Point is, suspension on these things suck for drag racing.

Those 2.73 gears with the T-56 are KILLING you. Get some 3.73s or 4.10s in there.

I was running mid 12s @ 111 with a setup nearly identical to yours. You should easily pull a stock Mach 1.

From what some people have told me, i will be lucky to hit 12's with 3.73's or 4.10's and a spec stg 3. IMO its impossible to launch with the stock clutch so that gonna hurt 1/4 times and ya the 2.73's hurt. When i did all my mods all i wanted to get out of it was a mid/high 12 sec daily driver. Ive gotten alot closer to it and just beating the cars i would lose to normally has deffinatly made it worth it.

What was your trap speeds for your 13.3? Nice 60's..I guess the new Ponies have Great suspension.The machs I have seen run have been between 13.5-14.0. A guy ran a 14.0" Auto" last year and there was another guy busting out 13.5's in a stick. I
f I could have pulled that sixty in my TA I would have ran a 12 in stock form.
I couldnt do better then a 2.2 :cry: :cry: :cry:
My buddy's 02GT seems to grab pretty well as well. Do tha mach's have a different suspension setup?

I was trapping 105 and my average 60' was a 1.97 or abouts.
Sometimes seeing a 2.0 which would bump my et up to the mid 13s.

Later
Mike

From what some people have told me, i will be lucky to hit 12's with 3.73's or 4.10's and a spec stg 3. IMO its impossible to launch with the stock clutch so that gonna hurt 1/4 times and ya the 2.73's hurt. When i did all my mods all i wanted to get out of it was a mid/high 12 sec daily driver. Ive gotten alot closer to it and just beating the cars i would lose to normally has deffinatly made it worth it.
WHoever told you this is full of Shiznit...Look at the car in sig. No cam. Can/will run 12's as is, this spring it will.

A cammed LT1 w/gears should have NP running a 12 providing its driven decently. Dont listen to people. I have seen plenty of uncammed/bolt on LT1's hit the 12 second range so just do what ya got to do and dont listen to everyone else's negative opinion's. Prove them wrong. :D

Get rid of the Crappy gears....what is it your waiting for? Money? :confused: Once you put the 4:10's in the LT1 youll be amazed at the change in its nature. You cant stomp mine from a roll w/out the tires spinning themselves into oblivion on street tires. Its a wonderfule thing.

I was trapping 105 and my average 60' was a 1.97 or abouts.
Sometimes seeing a 2.0 which would bump my et up to the mid 13s.

Later
Mike
You must have skills to hook at 1.9. Im starting to thinks its just our track :confused: :confused: We ran the Z on slicks for the 13.0 and it spun like crazy after a nice heating session. The first run with the LS1 after it was cammed nearly cost me the car as I heated up the slicks and it still provided no Traction. On takeoff. The TA went sideways , I let off the gas numerous times trying to correct it to maintain a straight And I ended up running a 13.2 w/a 3.1 sixty@111 :cry: Scared me for a few Runs I sat it out calming down.

I pulled one 1.9 sixty in the TA and I couldnt get it into third gear" On DR's" Darn thing hung up on me everytime I got a decent sixty.

1999 ~ 2004 GT was the 2V 4.6 rated at 265 HP
1999, 2001 Cobra was the 4V 4.6 rated at 320 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Cobra was the Supercharged 4V 4.6 rated at 385 HP
2003 ~ 2004 Mach 1 pretty much had the N/A Cobra engine rated at 305 HP.

If I got some of these confused, please someone correct me ;)

is not the same N/A cobra engine. is the same engine used in the last Marauder but the cylinder heads are different(high-flow design,shared with the '03 Cobra), and the cams are different (5.4 Lincon Navigator) hence the impoved mid-torque powerband compared to the N/A cobra. the result, more tq in the middle of the powerband and a little bit more hp than a stock 99/01 cobra. no need to shift at 7000rpm to get the best out of this engine, but 1st and 2nd gear would go to 6800rpm without any problems. the mach engine was rated at 305hp, but in reality is making around 320-330hp in stock trim.

Damn, i allways thought a Mach 1 was the same as a GT, just with apperance modifications. Never would of thought it would be faster then a N/A cobra. Guess i dont feel so bad now that he stuck next to me.

is not the same N/A cobra engine. is the same engine used in the last Marauder but the cylinder heads are different(high-flow design,shared with the '03 Cobra), and the cams are different (5.4 Lincon Navigator) hence the impoved mid-torque powerband compared to the N/A cobra. the result, more tq in the middle of the powerband and a little bit more hp than a stock 99/01 cobra. no need to shift at 7000rpm to get the best out of this engine, but 1st and 2nd gear would go to 6800rpm without any problems. the mach engine was rated at 305hp, but in reality is making around 320-330hp in stock trim.
From what I hear machs dyno around 265 in manuals. Assuming 13% drive train loss...Give or take a percent..Then it makes around 305HP. But like most american muscle cars some probably run better then others.

I have also read they make good power thrue out the entire power band and thats their strong point. They make and sustain power very well. Ford did good with the 4.6 liters.

Damn, i allways thought a Mach 1 was the same as a GT, just with apperance modifications. Never would of thought it would be faster then a N/A cobra. Guess i dont feel so bad now that he stuck next to me.
They are quite peppy.

Get rid of the Crappy gears....what is it your waiting for? Money? :confused: Once you put the 4:10's in the LT1 youll be amazed at the change in its nature. You cant stomp mine from a roll w/out the tires spinning themselves into oblivion on street tires. Its a wonderfule thing.

Man, I'm sick of my 4.10's... It may very well be great for track use, but it's killing me on the street. For my automatic, it's

Is it normal for first gear to last all of 2 seconds when I'm only on part throttle with 4.10's? I just bought the car, and I don't know if I can tune that to hang out a little more... It's great when I get into the throttle - the car revs up nicely then... But at 1/4 throttle it shifts pretty hard into second, and I'd like to tame that down some, if I can.

I've got a Hypertech Power Programmer III, but I'm not all that sure how to really utilize it... I was debating taking it in and having it tuned professionally, but if that shifting is something I can adjust, I'd like to do it myself... And I'd really like to rev a little lower at 70mph, but I've been told by several people that it's just sorta the price you pay for steep gears...

From what I hear machs dyno around 265 in manuals. Assuming 13% drive train loss...Give or take a percent..Then it makes around 305HP. But like most american muscle cars some probably run better then others.

I have also read they make good power thrue out the entire power band and thats their strong point. They make and sustain power very well. Ford did good with the 4.6 liters.

feel free to check the dyno graphs at mach1registry.com or mach1mustang.org, 5 speed mach1's are putting down more than 265rwhp in stock trim. automatics are making 255-265rwhp though, and we use 15% drivetrain loss on the 5 speed and 20% on the automatics :)

feel free to check the dyno graphs at mach1registry.com or mach1mustang.org, 5 speed mach1's are putting down more than 265rwhp in stock trim. automatics are making 255-265rwhp though, and we use 15% drivetrain loss on the 5 speed and 20% on the automatics :)
305-15% is about 265 :) . Im sure there are some pushing more then 305 But I think the majority will be more like ..well..305. Like the F-bods the ones I have seen seem to run 3-4 tenths different from eachother and trap 1-2MPH different.

Man, I'm sick of my 4.10's... It may very well be great for track use, but it's killing me on the street. For my automatic, it's

Is it normal for first gear to last all of 2 seconds when I'm only on part throttle with 4.10's? I just bought the car, and I don't know if I can tune that to hang out a little more... It's great when I get into the throttle - the car revs up nicely then... But at 1/4 throttle it shifts pretty hard into second, and I'd like to tame that down some, if I can.

I've got a Hypertech Power Programmer III, but I'm not all that sure how to really utilize it... I was debating taking it in and having it tuned professionally, but if that shifting is something I can adjust, I'd like to do it myself... And I'd really like to rev a little lower at 70mph, but I've been told by several people that it's just sorta the price you pay for steep gears...
I dont have to drive mine everyday. I have a 98 Cavy :D Gets the job done throughout the week while the beasts sleep. Trying not to kill them with miles.
SO I dont have to put up with the gears all the time in the Z.

Hey Robb,
You know... You might be onto something. We always run down at www.darlingtondragway.com and the track is so sticky its unreal. Even when I used to own my Stock 5 speed GT with 4.10s and bolt ons it was turning 2.0 60's

I think yours is a case of just too much torque (which is a bad thing
right?LOL?)
I never ever could get my stock LS1 6 speed down to a 2.0
We were always around 2.2 - 2.1

My Mach 1 as you probably already know has the live 8.8 axle like the GT so it makes it easier and taking off I always take off with the RPMs only at 1400 or so and ramp them up quickly after 3-5 feet off the line.

Maybe you need to make the trip down here and check out Darlington this summer as I love it and feel you wont be dissapointed. It is still an aweful long drive from K ville though.

Oh, and I dont have my dyno scanned in , but stock it turned 271 rwhp and 293 tq at Precision Dyno here in Belmont.

Later man,
Mike

305-15% is about 265 :) . Im sure there are some pushing more then 305 But I think the majority will be more like ..well..305. Like the F-bods the ones I have seen seem to run 3-4 tenths different from eachother and trap 1-2MPH different.

305???? :D, agree, the automatic mach1's are making 305 at flywheel :p

witht he mods listed i have below, or with LT headers, and a 3.73 gear w/ y pipe and the mods i ahve, will i be able to beat a stock mach 1?

From what I hear machs dyno around 265 in manuals. Assuming 13% drive train loss...Give or take a percent..Then it makes around 305HP. But like most american muscle cars some probably run better then others.

I have also read they make good power thrue out the entire power band and thats their strong point. They make and sustain power very well. Ford did good with the 4.6 liters.

Many Mach 1's dyno 280+ rwhp, like mine did:

Stock '03 Mach 1 vs Stock '01 Cobra Dyno (http://home.kc.rr.com/kchof/01%204v%20vs%2003%204v.jpg)

This equates to ~ 331 crank hp BTW... :D

Then the sticks are making 305 at the flywheel, too. :p The engine doesn't care what's behind it, it makes the same power at the flywheel either way.

Some completely stock Mach 1's have dynod over 290 rwhp, which is WAY more than 305 crank hp... ;)
(It's more like 341 crank hp :D )

Many Mach 1's dyno 280+ rwhp, like mine did:

Stock '03 Mach 1 vs Stock '01 Cobra Dyno (http://home.kc.rr.com/kchof/01%204v%20vs%2003%204v.jpg)

This equates to ~ 331 crank hp BTW... :D



Some completely stock Mach 1's have dynod over 290 rwhp, which is WAY more than 305 crank hp... ;)
(It's more like 341 crank hp :D )


Thats pretty cool. I wouldnt think most of them would dyno as high as yours. Id be amazed to see it. Not saying it never happened ;)

i told you :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by mach1dsg
the automatic mach1's are making 305 at flywheel


Then the sticks are making 305 at the flywheel, too. The engine doesn't care what's behind it, it makes the same power at the flywheel either way.

If the autos are making 305 at the flywheel, like you said, then the sticks are too. They may make different rwhp but the same flywheel hp. Get it?

Thats pretty cool. I wouldnt think most of them would dyno as high as yours. Id be amazed to see it. Not saying it never happened ;)

Actually, my Mach isn't unique nor did it dyno particularly high for an '03/'04 Mach 1.



Then the sticks are making 305 at the flywheel, too. The engine doesn't care what's behind it, it makes the same power at the flywheel either way.

If the autos are making 305 at the flywheel, like you said, then the sticks are too. They may make different rwhp but the same flywheel hp. Get it?

NEITHER the auto or the manual Mach's are making 305 crank hp.

Let's take a Mach that dynoed 290 rwhp for example:

290 rwhp divided by 305 = .95 (or 95% efficiency)

That would make the driveline loss only 5%, which is completely unheard of & way too low.

The generally accepted drivetrain loss percentage is:

15% for manual trans cars
&
20% for automatic trans cars

Now let's take that same 290 rwhp & divide it by the generally accepted (manual trans) driveline loss of 15%:

290 rwhp divided by .85 = 341.17 crank hp

My car when stock:

282 rwhp divided by .85 = 331.76 crank hp.

The absolute lowest dyno I've seen for an auto Mach 1 was 255 rwhp.

255 rwhp divided by .8 = 318.75 crank hp

It really is that simple, so I'm not sure where all the confusion is, or why we are arguing about it... :confused:

NEITHER the auto or the manual Mach's are making 305 crank hp.



That's exactly my point. He said the auto Machs were making 305 crank hp and the stick Machs are making 340 crank hp. The real truth is they are both making 330+ crank hp. The motor does not care what trans. is behind it, it still makes the same crank hp.

steve, i was joking when i said automatic mach1's had 305hp at flywheel, hence the :p
and i said they were making 255-265rwhp here on this thread,
the 5 speed one is making more power than 265rwhp ;)

steve, i was joking when i said automatic mach1's had 305hp at flywheel, hence the :p


:cool:


and i said they were making 255-265rwhp here on this thread,
the 5 speed one is making more power than 265rwhp ;)

I have seen some stock 5-speeds dyno 265 rwhp on a dynojet. :eek:

I have seen some stock 5-speeds dyno 265 rwhp on a dynojet.

And I've seen a few dyno as high as 295 rwhp.

So let's say that the average Mach 1 5-spd dyno's 280 rwhp. :cool:

And I've seen a few dyno as high as 295 rwhp.

So let's say that the average Mach 1 5-spd dyno's 280 rwhp. :cool:

Ford is getting as bad as GM with the quality control! How can they make supposedly identical motors with a 30 rwhp difference?

Ford is getting as bad as GM with the quality control! How can they make supposedly identical motors with a 30 rwhp difference?

The dyno used (dynos can & do vary), mileage of the engine, condition of the engine (mechanical as well as the state of tune, quality of gas, etc) & build consistency all factor-in when looking at dyno results.

I used to dyno my '01 Cobra at two different dynos in the mid-west.
I would consistently dyno 10 - 15 rwhp lower (SAE corrected) at one dyno than the other with absolutely no vehicle changes at all.

Dynos are really a tuning tool - not a way to compare car "X" to car "Y",
which both went to different dynos in different states.

You can only truly compare two cars dyno numbers with 100% accuracy if they dynoed on the same dyno one right after the other...

And I've seen a few dyno as high as 295 rwhp.

So let's say that the average Mach 1 5-spd dyno's 280 rwhp. :cool:I dont think so. I bet the average would probably be more like 270

The dyno used (dynos can & do vary), mileage of the engine, condition of the engine (mechanical as well as the state of tune, quality of gas, etc) & build consistency all factor-in when looking at dyno results.

I used to dyno my '01 Cobra at two different dynos in the mid-west.
I would consistently dyno 10 - 15 rwhp lower (SAE corrected) at one dyno than the other with absolutely no vehicle changes at all.

Dynos are really a tuning tool - not a way to compare car "X" to car "Y",
which both went to different dynos in different states.

You can only truly compare two cars dyno numbers with 100% accuracy if they dynoed on the same dyno one right after the other...

Very interesting! Thanks. :)

I dont think so. I bet the average would probably be more like 270

i bet you would loose this bet ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mach1dsg
the automatic mach1's are making 305 at flywheel


Then the sticks are making 305 at the flywheel, too. The engine doesn't care what's behind it, it makes the same power at the flywheel either way.

If the autos are making 305 at the flywheel, like you said, then the sticks are too. They may make different rwhp but the same flywheel hp. Get it?


While you guys are debating this, you realize that the auto Mach's have a much lower rev limiter than the 5 speed cars? The auto even has a cast crank vs the 5 speeds forged crank. :o

While you guys are debating this, you realize that the auto Mach's have a much lower rev limiter than the 5 speed cars? The auto even has a cast crank vs the 5 speeds forged crank. :o

I know. Another one of Fords great ideas. :rolleyes: God forbid the idiots make the automatic car only a little slower than the stick instead of a lot slower.

I know. Another one of Fords great ideas. :rolleyes: God forbid the idiots make the automatic car only a little slower than the stick instead of a lot slower.


Yeah, I hear ya. But this probably accounts for some of the widely varying dyno numbers that people have been seeing. About the time the auto cars start making power they hit the rev limiter! :mad:

But on a side note, I saw one of those 350hp GTO's with an auto make 260hp on the dyno. I wasn't too impressed. :p

Yeah, I hear ya. But this probably accounts for some of the widely varying dyno numbers that people have been seeing. About the time the auto cars start making power they hit the rev limiter! :mad:

But on a side note, I saw one of those 350hp GTO's with an auto make 260hp on the dyno. I wasn't too impressed. :p
:confused: What kind of dyno?

:confused: What kind of dyno?

Probably a Mustang dyno. I saw a few stock automatic LS1 GTOs making about 290-295 rwhp.

Dynojet. It was a stupid hot and humid day, typical Florida weather, and the car was pretty low miles and bone stock. I was expecting 300-310 honestly.

Oddly enough I just sold my cammed t/a (LT-1) that ran 13.3 and replaced it with a 2003 Mach 1 that ran 13.4 stock. I was extremely impressed with its performance. I now have a K&N CAI,and a Flowmaster Ex.. I am hoping to dip in the 12's tomorrow at the track. I did get a chance to race the two cars before I sold the T/A. It was a drivers race depending on which car got the better jump without missing a gear. I raced them 4 times and the result was T/A 2 Mach 2.
The Mach is also lighter than the older and newer Cobras because of the Live Axle weighing about 80lbs less than the Cobras IRS.
Conclusion: Mach 1 4.6L are the best n/a 4.6 that ford has made to date. That being said there is no replacement for displacement and most LS-1 car will get the win in the end of the 1/4 mile. Average Mods/Driver Skill/Trans type/etc. and it is a drivers race.