what are the chances of me beatin a gto? [Archive]

Bersaglieri

02-10-2005, 11:22 PM

In an M6 its not hard to mess up if you canr drive. If you beat him bye that manyc ars he prolly never took it out of 4th.

You dont have enough mods to beat one. ANd I didnt say you where lying. I just said he couldnt drive other wise it is mechanicly impossible.

I beat a 2002 SS on the highway in my camaro when I had barely anything done to it. I beat him bad. Not becasue my car was faster then his but because He couldnt drive his M6 worth a ****.

Well I guess he wouldnt have to take it out of 4th since its an AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION! They downshift electronically, therefore is pretty damn hard to screw up racing from a roll. He didnt lose tracion, he wasnt blind, I didnt make him swap out his LS1 for a LT1, I beat him easily with my bolt on LT1. I didnt even take him on the jump I waited until I saw him jump after the 3rd honk.

I dont care if you think I have enough mods to beat him or not, it was done. As far as mechanically impossible, did you ever hear of a lil ole boat called the Titanic that not even God himself could sink? LS1's can lose to a LT1, it happened, I was there.

I'll say it again I beat an Automatic Yellow 2004 GTO with a LS1 from a 35mph roll by about 4-5 car lengths.

-Dustin-

robb4964

02-11-2005, 12:18 AM

Well I guess he wouldnt have to take it out of 4th since its an AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION! They downshift electronically, therefore is pretty damn hard to screw up racing from a roll. He didnt lose tracion, he wasnt blind, I didnt make him swap out his LS1 for a LT1, I beat him easily with my bolt on LT1. I didnt even take him on the jump I waited until I saw him jump after the 3rd honk.

I dont care if you think I have enough mods to beat him or not, it was done. As far as mechanically impossible, did you ever hear of a lil ole boat called the Titanic that not even God himself could sink? LS1's can lose to a LT1, it happened, I was there.

I'll say it again I beat an Automatic Yellow 2004 GTO with a LS1 from a 35mph roll by about 4-5 car lengths.

-Dustin-My Z will run a 12 in its form and in its form it could not beat my stock TA in a race from roll@20MPH IS NO WAY YOU COULD BEAT AN LS1 5 CAR LENGHTS. im not going to argue . Anyone who has owned both can tell you dont have enough mods to beat one let alone beatone bye 4-5 cars DO you understand the HP diff between 5 cars man? Thats HUGE.
Being your geared I could see a temperary lead for maybe a half a second. I owned an auto LT1 w/3:32's. Ive driven so many of them both and own both.
We are not talking about Titanic. :rolleyes: Sorry man but there is no way.
A cammed LT1 wouldnt pull an LS1 bye 5 cars.
Your looking at a 103 trap speed..maybe..with your car. Stock LS1's usually trap higher then that. Means they make More HP. following me? So beings they make more HP you are not going to pull them bye 4-5 cars. Like I said not mechanicly possible. unless you have a magical LT1.

robb4964

02-11-2005, 12:29 AM

BTW, How do you know he had an automatic? Did you flag him down and ask him?

350HP LS1 vs ..310-325 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: HP LT1..hmmmmmm..I wonder who would win?

ChevyTuffD.A.

02-11-2005, 12:45 AM

Steve Y

02-11-2005, 12:49 AM

robb4964

02-11-2005, 12:49 AM

I am willing to bet he has a bit more then 310 hp especially since he has long tubes and basically every other bolt on you can buy. Its prolly more like 300 at the wheels. Besides arent the GTO's heavier???
Yes they are heavier but they dont weigh 4k. No matter what..even if he held even with the GTO...He still could not pull it bye 5 cars. NO WAY POSSIBLE unless 1) he wasnt racing 2)his car was a stick racing in 4th 3) he is running on 7 cylinders.

Im sure he is making around 320HP..maybe a little more.

robb4964

02-11-2005, 12:51 AM

Yes, 200+ lbs. heavier.
Whats your take on this Steve? 5 cars? ..sound like something is wrong?

Bersaglieri

02-11-2005, 01:12 AM

I know its an Auto because we spoke before we ran. We stopped on the empty 4 lane and traded some info. He asked about my mods, I asked about his, then we decided to run once from a dig and once from a 35 roll. He was racing it was pre-arranged, he wasnt in manual 4th, it was an Auto, and his GTO with 30 day tags wasnt running on 7 cylinders.

As far as horsepower goes: I have Ceramic coated Hooker Longtubes to a mufflex Y to GMMG, Lingenfelter Supertube, and a madwolf tune. Hell stock SS's came with 305 HP, give me some credit. If you take 350-360 fwhp and subtract 15-17% power loss through an Auto it puts me just under 300 at the wheels. I know plenty of people over 300rwhp with similar mods. So that shoots your bench racing HP theory. Lets say for the sake of arguement, I am making more torque at a better RPM, with better gearing, for racing at that speed, plus 200lbs+ lighter. Still to far fetched?

Realistically I dont have to sit here and argue with you, since I didnt bench or dyno race an 04 GTO, I street raced one. Hell we even spoke after each race commenting on how we did. From the dig we both knew I had no traction and he beat me bad, he said the only way he moved was thanks to his traction control. From a roll he commented that I did much better without traction being an issue. I asked him if he messed up or was manually upshifting, he said no I just flat out ran him. If you want I'll look the guy up, he lives somewhere in my home town, and you can call him and ask him how badly he lost from a roll. Sorry you cant accept the fact that a bolt on LT1 beat a GTO with an LS1. I guess it doesnt seem so unrealistic to me since I did it in my magical LT1.

-Dustin-

ChevyTuffD.A.

02-11-2005, 03:30 AM

We'll give Dustin the benefit of the doubt and say he runs somewhere close to a 13.2-13.3 in the 1/4 mile. I have personally seen videos of GTO's running 13.5-all the way up to 14.0 I can see maybe 4 car lengths. I know this was from a roll but its street racing and anything can happen. Peace, Dustin.

robb4964

02-11-2005, 08:13 AM

Im sure it woulc have been a good race if anything. Im not trying to take anything from your car man, but its not typical an LS1 car could have been beat so bad bye a car that should be running indentical numbers.

Steve Y

02-11-2005, 11:01 AM

Whats your take on this Steve? 5 cars? ..sound like something is wrong?

Yes. The GTO was probably in a dead spot in a gear in that race.

darrens99formul

02-11-2005, 12:51 PM

Yes. The GTO was probably in a dead spot in a gear in that race.

The GTO was DEFINATELY in a dead spot for that race. At 35 mph the transmission stays at the very bottom of second gear instead of dropping to first like it really should (ask me how I know). The rpm's take forever to climb to where the LS1 engine makes decent torque. Now if the race had begun at 25mph the GTO's transmission would have downshifted to the top of first and a real race would have been on. 55-65 is a great place to roll from as well.

I believe you beat the GTO Bers. But he raced you with a handicap (so to speak). Next time you run an auto LT1/LSx run from a dig, 25mph or 50-60 mph. Then the race will be car vs car with no excuses. I'm surprised he was even willing to run from that speed. He was a moron IMO not to slow down another 10mph to make the run fair. Not your fault, it was all on him.

Steve Y

02-11-2005, 08:38 PM

I doubt Dustins car has 300 rwhp. Stock auto LT1s have about 235 rwhp. His power mods are exhaust, cold air, LT4km and a tune. I doubt that will net 65 rwhp. Stock GTO autos put down about 290 rwhp and weigh about 3750 lbs. Dustins car weighs about 3500 lbs. and probably puts down about 270 rwhp. This should be a close race. That's why I think the GTO was in a dead spot when the race started.

Bersaglieri

02-12-2005, 12:06 AM

blackz6sp

02-12-2005, 02:26 AM

Just wanna put my opiniom in. LT1 alot more low end torque. GTO alot of driveline power loss, all the stock GTO's Ive seen have run high 13's-low14's. I'll take on any stock GTO dont care who's driving!!!!!!

darrens99formul

02-12-2005, 10:00 AM

I cant believe the line of bull-**** excuses you poeple have. Its not like my LT1 downshifted either. You people sound like a bunch of ricer boys with your pathetic excuses. At first it wasnt mechanically possible for me to beat a GTO, and there was no way I could make up the difference in HP. Then he must of missed a shift, or not been racing, or running on 7 cylinders. Now its the poor LS1 that could cant race at 35mph. "Oh his Auto didnt downshift and he doesnt make the right amount of TQ at the right rpm" "Oh slow down 10mph to give the handicap LS1 an advantage, since his superior engine cant handle racing at 35mph." Now I know the LS1 does make peak TQ till higher RPM's, but does it fuggin matter? I beat the guy fair and square. What more do you people want? Hell, why didnt that beast LS1 pull on my ass like its supposed to? How come I went 4-5 cars on his ass and he couldnt inch any closer? What a bunch of excuse making girls :rolleyes: I have never seen anyone post such crap.

Some LS1 beats a old LT1 and its "good easy kill" you dont see people posting crap like "well the LT1 didnt downshift" and "the LT1's heads dont flow as much as the LS1's do and dont have the top end" How far are you people going to analyze a kill? I beat him because my car out raced his. You wanna be some stupid little rice boys be my guest and make your little excuses for the poor unfortunate LS1. You would think that the LT1 folk would be rejoicing that a LS1 got killed so bad.

Chevy TuffD.A.: Thanks for the props at least someone has some common sense.

Steve Y You spend too much time in Track Kill stories and not enough time in LT1 tech. I know of plenty of LT1's at over over 300rwhp with just bolts ons similar to mine. Hell I know several people running mid 12's who dont even have full bolt on's. How are you going to explain the math to those people who have 300rwhp or more, with just bolt on's? Tell them they only have 5% drivetrain loss and have the same horsepower as stock WS6's? You must be one hell of LT1 expert to say my car only puts down 270 rwhp. I used to feel bad for you, Antz97znj and everyone all on your case about every post you made, but now that your on mine, I feel no remorse. You need to read some more in LT1 tech and learn you numbers kid.

Paging Antz97znj: someone tell these little boys what bolt on LT1's make at the wheels.

Thanks F-body brothers for the support, especially you LT1 guys who have lost faith in their own engines. Go buy a GTO so I can smoke your sorry ass.

-Dustin-

Obviously you know nothing about the 4L60E transmission. He was in a dead spot. I thought my previous post explained to you what a dead spot is but maybe you still don't get it. Lets say your cruising in your M6 at 60 mph. Now picture a car starts messing with you and you decide to run him. Now lets say you floor it in fourth gear. You just got your butt handed to you most likely because you didn't downshift to where your car will make decent power for that mph. But of course you would never do that because you KNOW what gear you need to be in to make the most of that particular race. But if you ever did do that then you just experienced what the A4's dead spot would feel like.

His car would want to run first gear to 40mph so at a 35mph start he should downshift to first, run to 6200 rpm's and then shift to second with a decent enough shift extension to keep the torque up and the car moving. But the 4L60E for whatever reason was not designed to downshift to first at that speed but rather it stays at the bottom of second gear where the rpm's are under 2500. Trust me when I say it feels like an eternity before the engine climbs enough rpm's to shift to third. But if he goes WOT between 25-30 mph then the 4L60E will downshift to first where he will be high in rpm's, make good torque and the shift extension of his torque converter will prevent him from running in low rpm's when it shifts into second. In other words he'll give you a much better run for your money because second gear will feel strong instead of sluggish.

No post I read here says you shouldn't have beaten him anyway. Stock automatic goats are not the fastest cars on the road by any means. I think you would have still won with decent shifting even at a 25mph roll but it would have been a much closer race. The only reason he lost as bad as he did was because he was too stupid to know that racing at 35mph in an A4 with a stock torque converter is a waste of time and gas. He needs to learn and learn fast that his car runs best at 0, 25 and 60. Or he could get a 3500+ stall with a 2.5+ STR and call it a day.

Good kill on the goat and I hope this made some sense as to why he lost as bad as he did.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 11:31 AM

Well once again SteveY couldnt be any more inaccurate w/ his dyno numbers (and everything else for that matter)...235 is bttm of the totem poll for what a auto LT1 dynos, thats like saying all LS1 auto cars dyno in the 280's...Theres plenty of auto LT1 that dyno in the high 250's some even 260's...A good running bolt on LT1 (w/ long tubes) generally dyno somewhere in the high 280's - 290's and yes some have hit over 300....btw, its very possible for you to beat a LS1 GTO, and thats w/ either transmission...I generally had the same mods as you but w/ some crappy pacesetter shorty headers, a crapped out posi and and a exhaust leak and still manage a 13.4@ almost 104...now those numbers right there can take out a good amount of auto GTO's, if thats the case then Bersaglieri's car w/ the Hookers, Mufflex, GMMG surely can. You didnt go the cheap route w/ your mods, and it'll show at the track/dyno/street

Bersaglieri

02-12-2005, 11:45 AM

Obviously I know a bit more than you are giving me credit for. I already understand how it is in a dead spot and no where in my post did I indicate that I wasnt understanding anything about staying in second or the such. I didnt need your above explaination. I have the same damn transmission and my old 4L60E didnt downshift either. So arent we both at the same "disadvantage"? We both had to climb up the RPM's and after my 2400rpm peak torque he should be settling into his LS1 high end. Why didnt the GTO win, not cause he didnt downshift...cause I didnt either, not cause he missed a gear, not cause he wasnt racing, not cause he was running on 7, because my bolt on LT1 raped his ass.

All I am saying is from my first post about beating him, every other post afterwards has been making excuses for why he lost or how I couldnt have won, or at least not by that margin.

Same speed, same transmission, he had the jump. I never downshifted and we both had to climb the same RPM's. Beside my weight advantage how else wasnt it engine vs engine or car vs car? Even the driver was the same size/weight as I. I guess it must be since my LT1 had an unfair torque advantage or something, probably some crap where I have a flatter curve and thats not fair to the LS1.

Just getting sick of 2 pages of LS1 excuses. No offense to LS1 owners, but Accept defeat, the GTO owner did. I think some people have fallen into the LS1 trap thinking the only way a bolt on LT1 beats a LS1 is if the driver is asleep at the wheel or broken or some other crap.

blackz6sp: No way your bolt on LT1 runs 12.5 in the 1/4 mile, only LS1's can do that :rolleyes:

Thank you Antz97zNJ for some accurate numbers, I feel like I am the only one who spends time in the Tech forums.

-Dustin-

Steve Y

02-12-2005, 12:01 PM

Bersaglieri

02-12-2005, 12:22 PM

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 12:27 PM

Now who is the whiney little ricer? You. None of us ever said you didn't beat the GTO. We were just analyzing the kill. Your LT1 has an advantage from a 35 mph roll with both cars in the bottom of 2nd gear. You have more low end torque and weigh less. So the LS1 will lose until it gets to its powerband. Average tock LT1 6-speeds dyno about 255 rwhp. Average stock LT1 autos dyno about 20 rwhp less. Get on the dyno and let's see what you dyno. I bet about 270 rwhp. Of course you could lie about your dyno numbers like a ricer. :cool:
Well seeing that he's not man enough or has the Fbody knowledge to argue w/ me he wont see this post cause im on his ignore list lol....You show me ANY dyno at any rpm where a LT1 has more torque(maybe if you race to 15-20 mph but who races to that, we've already been through this mths ago where snorman,crosby, and myself shut you up)....the LS1 is just smoother, wrong again no LT1 advantage there, not from a 35 mph punch anyway. I raced UltimateOrangeSS (exfriend who posts here) in his stock 99ss a4 numerous times from numerous speeds (I had Flow. Catback, Pacesetter Shorties, K&N, and even 373's) and I was never ahead of him...Id hold him off till about 100-115 then he would start to pull a half/car length..and it all adds up cause he hit 104 n change stock to my 103 and change so there proof that what I stated above is true. Dustin's car for sure put down more power soley from the better quality of mods, so again no reason on earth on why he could take out a heavier GTO...How about you get on a dyno and put down your monsterous 220 rwhp....He can stomp you into the ground, so stop spouting your inaccurate crap...Go make another post on "how much more traction will 245's have then 225's" LOL. Tons more man lemme tell ya :lol: . Those factory tires and tire sizes are more then adaquate to keep the power your putting down at bay on a launch...so stop wasteing money on DR's and wider tires and learn how to drive your car.

Bersaglieri

02-12-2005, 12:41 PM

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 01:05 PM

Antz97ZNJ, Is there a surplus of excuses and inaccurate information strewn about this thread or what? Do you really think the only reason I beat the GTO was because we ran at 35mph? If downshifting into his huge LS1 top end would have made a difference, how come the huge LS1 top end had him losing ground into the 100's?

For the thread originator, yes you can beat a GTO, get mods similar to mine and go smack some around, but dont tell anyone here you did it.

-Dustin-
Well you gotta remember that the GTOs especially auto dont put down as much power as the fbodys plus there heavier....Ive seen some really piss poor times outta some GTOs...Go over to ls1gto.com, you see more sh!tty times then not...Some run 100-103mph / low 14's high 13's....Generally stock LT1 times....The fastest 6spds ive seen is around 105 mph stock....Auto LS1 GTO's top end isnt so "huge" when you have a LT1 like yours likely putting out similar/ same/ maybe more power and probably running/ trapping a good bit better in the 1/4...Your should atleast be running 104 in the 1/4, I can asure you that a auto GTO would need a few mods to hit that. You won cause your car was faster, and no other reason. You have grade A bolt ons and 323's...dont set your car so short, stock or lightly modded auto LS1's regardless of fbody or GTO are gonna have there hands full w/ ya. Good Kill

yellavette

02-12-2005, 01:23 PM

Why would the GTO not make as much rwhp as an fbody with the same engine and tranny?

Jason
Well you gotta remember that the GTOs especially auto dont put down as much power as the fbodys plus there heavier....Ive seen some really piss poor times outta some GTOs...Go over to ls1gto.com, you see more sh!tty times then not...Some run 100-103mph / low 14's high 13's....Generally stock LT1 times....The fastest 6spds ive seen is around 105 mph stock....Auto LS1 GTO's top end isnt so "huge" when you have a LT1 like yours likely putting out similar/ same/ maybe more power and probably running/ trapping a good bit better in the 1/4...Your should atleast be running 104 in the 1/4, I can asure you that a auto GTO would need a few mods to hit that. You won cause your car was faster, and no other reason. You have grade A bolt ons and 323's...dont set your car so short, stock or lightly modded auto LS1's regardless of fbody or GTO are gonna have there hands full w/ ya. Good Kill

Bersaglieri

02-12-2005, 01:33 PM

Well you gotta remember that the GTOs especially auto dont put down as much power as the fbodys plus there heavier....Ive seen some really piss poor times outta some GTOs...Go over to ls1gto.com, you see more sh!tty times then not...Some run 100-103mph / low 14's high 13's....Generally stock LT1 times....The fastest 6spds ive seen is around 105 mph stock....Auto LS1 GTO's top end isnt so "huge" when you have a LT1 like yours likely putting out similar/ same/ maybe more power and probably running/ trapping a good bit better in the 1/4...Your should atleast be running 104 in the 1/4, I can asure you that a auto GTO would need a few mods to hit that. You won cause your car was faster, and no other reason. You have grade A bolt ons and 323's...dont set your car so short, stock or lightly modded auto LS1's regardless of fbody or GTO are gonna have there hands full w/ ya. Good Kill

Thanks you very much Antz97znj, anyone who follow's this board knows you dont **** around you get straight to the facts and tell it like it is. I appriciate your accurate and straight forward posts. Its hard to prove the correct side of things when your alone, neck deep in other folk's bull****.

-Dustin-

TQdrivenws6

02-12-2005, 02:32 PM

All that you have said was that you raced from a 35mph roll, how fast did you race to? I am just having a hard time with the 4-5 cars thing. It takes alot of power/weight difference to pull 4-5 cars from a roll. If you pulled 4-5 cars by say 75mph that means you pulled hard, real hard. 4-5 cars by 130mph is not near the same pull. Regardless, its not hard to believe you beat him, but it may be more believeable if you include all of the details.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 03:11 PM

Why would the GTO not make as much rwhp as an fbody with the same engine and tranny?

JasonIRS

80TA

02-12-2005, 04:22 PM

robb4964

02-12-2005, 04:46 PM

robb4964

02-12-2005, 04:52 PM

Dustin, these people are not understanding your claim...HE THINKS HE CAN BEAT A STOCK GTO EASILY BYE 4-5 CAR LENGHTS WITH HIS MODS.......<---READ---READ---READ

I wish My LS1 was still stock I would have been more then happy to wax you in it.
Go to the track and run your car and re-post your results. Numbers wont lie.
If your not trapping 108-110 you'r not going to pull a stock LS1 GTO bye 5 cars and If you where running a good running LS1-fbod youd have been beaten.

I have owned 2 LT1's...2...and an LS1. Why do you think i bought the LS1?

robb4964

02-12-2005, 04:57 PM

I have 99 ls1 with bolt ons,b1 cam,no headers or heads.I have a 96z28vert and buddy has a 94z28.
Our track is 1900 feet above seal level.
My 99 only does around 13.7 with a 2.2 something 60ft on nittos at 105.
Buddys mildly modded no headers 3.23 z runs best 13.8 at 99mph with a 2.0 60ft.My raceweight is likey close to a gto at 3800 me in.I weigh 240.

I also think a 94 z with headers and all that would hit 13.5 at our track.I am sure my buddies 94 could.He is light guy only 140 and his car is light.

So I think its very possible to beat a bone stock gto with the mods the 94z had.Not all ls1 are super strong and underated by the same amount.And I think the exact weight diff could be more than 200 depending on driver weights ,how much gas was in the car..I think for sure the 94z is more than 200 pounds lighter than gto.I guess have to go look up gto specs.
My ls1 would only run a 14.0 flat at our altitude most lt1 stock are mid 14s there.
And one other thing.If the gto guy left traction control on maybe it still hurt his power as you can still get spin at even the speed they raced at depending on road conditions.

Also you have reaction time problem on the street.It pretty hard with honking three times or someone just hitting it first to not be out a tenth or so.

Also agreed the lead might have changed dramatically depending on how much they took this up to.You took off at 35 but where did you end.The ls1 are a bit pouchy it seems to me on mine until the revs get up there.And what gears did the gto have.Do they have the crappy 2.73 that my vert came with or just 3.23 or 3.42 gears.?

I would never say the lt1 are invincible especially stock ones.

Do you really think he could beat it bye 5 car lenghts? ..Im starting to think you people just dont undestand anything. :confused:

Ok how much HP diff dom you think you need to beat a car bye 5 car lenghts? ...anyone..????? DO YOU PEOPLE realize how much of a gain that is? Do you think 2 engines with cloes to the same HP could have that much of a gap without error? NO WAY! IF he did beat this car he wouldnt have beat it bye much at all if at all. Im dont trying to explain something so simple. It seems like people skip over everything and post witout knowing the argument.
I have a LT1 w/headers and gears. I OWN ONE..except mines faster then yours and mine still isnt as fast as My LS1 was stock. Had you had a manual I know you could have ebaten an auto GTO but you'r machine would still not be superior enough to beat it bye 5 cars. At least not from a roll.

nuke61

02-12-2005, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by yellavette
Why would the GTO not make as much rwhp as an fbody with the same engine and tranny?
IRS

Do C5 Corvettes put down fewer horses than LS1 Fbodies? I think they put down the same numbers, roughly low 300's for SAE rwhp.

80TA

02-12-2005, 05:33 PM

It would take 40 hp engine to be four carlengths.50 to be five.My theory was that the modded 94z is around the same power output as the stock ls1.Both around 350 engine maybe or slightly less.The ls1 is also an auto.They are both autos so should have equal drivetrain losses.Not it can come down to raceweight.Meaning weight of car during the race.A full tank in the gto and 1/4 in the 94 z can easily account for 100 pounds right there and one carlength.Difference in drivers weight could be another tenth depending..my one buddy is 140 and I am 240 there is a tenth.And I think a gto full loaded would be more than a 94 z by like three hundred pounds not 200.As said have to look at the gto weight stats.
Also what gears in that gto??
And the way most people exaggerate their victories a little bit maybe it was more like two or three car lengths.And we still didn't hear how high the race went too.I would expect the ls1 to close the gap the faster the race went.

yellavette

02-12-2005, 05:41 PM

Oh. I could see where that would affect how you hook, but rwhp? Or is hooking up what you meant?

Jason
IRS

yellavette

02-12-2005, 05:49 PM

The GTO weighs in at about 3750 lbs. The 6 spd. has 3.46 gears, don't know about the auto. I'm picking my GTO up Monday morning. There's no shortage of bolt on lt1's around here, so maybe I'll find out the truth:)

Jason
It would take 40 hp engine to be four carlengths.50 to be five.My theory was that the modded 94z is around the same power output as the stock ls1.Both around 350 engine maybe or slightly less.The ls1 is also an auto.They are both autos so should have equal drivetrain losses.Not it can come down to raceweight.Meaning weight of car during the race.A full tank in the gto and 1/4 in the 94 z can easily account for 100 pounds right there and one carlength.Difference in drivers weight could be another tenth depending..my one buddy is 140 and I am 240 there is a tenth.And I think a gto full loaded would be more than a 94 z by like three hundred pounds not 200.As said have to look at the gto weight stats.
Also what gears in that gto??
And the way most people exaggerate their victories a little bit maybe it was more like two or three car lengths.And we still didn't hear how high the race went too.I would expect the ls1 to close the gap the faster the race went.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 05:57 PM

Do C5 Corvettes put down fewer horses than LS1 Fbodies? I think they put down the same numbers, roughly low 300's for SAE rwhp.:confused: Why would they be putting down less...there rated higher then fbodies from the factory...The reason they put down right around the same is because of the irs.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 05:59 PM

Oh. I could see where that would affect how you hook, but rwhp? Or is hooking up what you meant?

JasonNo, it effects hooking also, but the irs robs more power from the engine

80TA

02-12-2005, 06:17 PM

I found a curb weight spec on the gto of 3725.Not sure if that is with gas or not.I think z would be around 3500.I think my ta ls1 had 3477 in some mag curb weight.
Now add in driver weight diff and maybe fuel weight its possible to maybe see the two cars being three or so car lengths apart.Also it seems the gto had gear advantage of 3.42 to the 94s 3.23.So maybe if the got had traction contol on he could have got wheelspin at 35 mph depending on roads and this could also have slowed him down.Other not as likely ideas are if the gto was running cheap fuel and getting knock retard that also can kill power pretty quick on these cars.And have to wonder since the rated the gto at 350 is this underrated still like they used to underrate the regular ls1 f bodies or just a more accurate engine hp estimate?
Just more data to look at guys.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 06:32 PM

ANTZ....re-read it. I am trying to say he cant beat a stock LS1 bye 5 car lenghts. Not to say it wont run head and head..Wich I dought it could even edge of the GTO, But, He is claiming he beat it bye 4-5 cars easily....Come back to planet earth!I read it right the first time, I guess you seen his car run before? Seen dyno numbers and track times for both him and the GTO he raced? Not every LS1 is knocking on the door of 12's stock and trapping 108-109mph...Seen plenty of LS1 GTO times and I find no reason not to believe him....Your lookin way too much into it bro, anything can happen on the street.

yellavette

02-12-2005, 06:59 PM

<anything can happen on the street>

I agree. I also think that was Rob's point. I don't think the race is bs, but I think the results are atypical. I know the GTO I'm picking up Monday would wax the bolt-on vette in my sig.

Jason

I read it right the first time, I guess you seen his car run before? Seen dyno numbers and track times for both him and the GTO he raced? Not every LS1 is knocking on the door of 12's stock and trapping 108-109mph...Seen plenty of LS1 GTO times and I find no reason not to believe him....Your lookin way too much into it bro, anything can happen on the street.

nuke61

02-12-2005, 07:05 PM

:confused: Why would they be putting down less...there rated higher then fbodies from the factory...The reason they put down right around the same is because of the irs.They would be putting down less IF your theory of an IRS being less efficient were true. They actually put down the same horsepower as Fbodies because the difference is so slight that it's insignificant. Yes, C5's are RATED higher than the Fbodies, but that's just GMs rating game so the Vette guys *think* they're getting more horses than the Fbodies did. They aren't, because the motors are virtually identical. They did the exact same thing with the SS models, simply a ratings game so the SS guys *think* they're getting more horses than the Z28.

The CTS-V and the Vette both have IRS, yet the CTS is putting down 10 to 20 fewer horses than the C5 Z06, and there's long been talk of a class action lawsuit similar to the suit brought against Ford for overrating the 99 Cobra. The CTS-V and the Z06 are both *rated* the same, and use similar (if not identical) IRS units, yet they are quite far apart in real world SAE rwhp numbers. Some more data... Ford rates the '03/04 Cobra at 390 horses, while GM rates the '02+ Z06 at 405 hp, yet a stock Cobra puts down 20+ more horses than a stock Z06. My point for bringing up the ratings of the CTS-V and the Cobra is... Don't fall for the ratings ploy, don't be the fool.

No, it effects hooking also, but the irs robs more power from the engineGot any facts to back up that claim? Heck, it might be true, but I just want to see some facts. In *theory*, I agree, that an IRS should eat up more horses, but there's a difference between what should happen and what you can actually measure.

Steve Y

02-12-2005, 09:04 PM

I am not some whiney little ricer, I just cant understand how you can be such a dumbass. How many excuses does a "superior" engine need? No one said I didnt beat the GTO, what about it not being "mechanically possible" for me to beat him.

Steve Y your dead wrong with your numbers and if you take a look in LT1 Tech you will find out why 11 year old LT1's rape your little GT's ass. Hell make a thread there and ask what full bolt on LT1's make. I bet not one is below 270rwhp unless it has mechanical problems of some sort. As far as the LT1 vs LS1 power bands shouldnt the LS1 be in its powerband by the low-mid 100's? Furthermore I would never lie about such things as dyno's and track times or kills. I am obviously more honest that your sorry behind who can stand behind and quote incorrect number after incorrect number. Anyone who backs you up has to be a complete fool.

I am the futherest thing from a ricer, although anything is better than being considered the joke of an entire internet forum :bow:

-Dustin-

Fact: LT1s put out more torque low rpm torque than LS1s. Fact: your car is lighter than a GTO. That's why you pulled him from a 35 mph roll. Try a roll start where each motor is spinning at 4000+ rpm and I bet the outcome would be different. Try it and get back to us.

GMhightechperfs project car the Grape of Wrath put out 235 rwhp with syn oils. They said this is very represetative of a good running stock LT1. Argue with them. :rolleyes: I saw another good running low mileage bone stock LT1 put out 220 rwhp. The tech forums are full of fact and bs. It's hard to tell, sometimes. Stock for stock my car and an LT1 is a very close race. You don't know what you are talking about. Newsflash: you have an automatic not a stick, therefore you lose about 20-30 rwhp compared to a stick. I am talking about your car not a 6-speed.

You have just turning into a complete whiney little a-hole because some people didn't agree with you.

Steve Y

02-12-2005, 09:08 PM

Why would the GTO not make as much rwhp as an fbody with the same engine and tranny?

Jason

It would. Antz is full of sh** as usual.

Steve Y

02-12-2005, 09:15 PM

They would be putting down less IF your theory of an IRS being less efficient were true. They actually put down the same horsepower as Fbodies because the difference is so slight that it's insignificant. Yes, C5's are RATED higher than the Fbodies, but that's just GMs rating game so the Vette guys *think* they're getting more horses than the Fbodies did. They aren't, because the motors are virtually identical. They did the exact same thing with the SS models, simply a ratings game so the SS guys *think* they're getting more horses than the Z28.

At least somebody has a brain around here! :bow: Antz is owned again.

Kris93/95Z28

02-12-2005, 09:29 PM

Fact: LT1s put out more torque low rpm torque than LS1s. Fact: your car is lighter than a GTO. That's why you pulled him from a 35 mph roll. Try a roll start where each motor is spinning at 4000+ rpm and I bet the outcome would be different. Try it and get back to us.

Still Steve, I have a hard time to believing that he was able to put 5 or more cars on the GTO (Asuming the GTO was driven by someone who could drive), at some point the GTO would get the RPMS up, and the LS1 would start working its magic, MAYBE it wouldn't pull back all the ground it would have lost, BUT I think it wouldn't have lost by that much...

I believe his ride has more than enough to beat a GTO, just not that bad.
I base this off My Personal Experience with both Motors and cars.
I had a 93 Z28 with Jet Hot LTs, Cutout, Catback, Chip, 3.73s, CAI, etc...
and I know it could have beaten my 04 GTO, BUT it would be a race, and the Camaro would win, Just not by that much.

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 09:37 PM

Got any facts to back up that claim? Heck, it might be true, but I just want to see some facts Yea id like to see some also...Im well aware its just a factory rating, and all I was stating is that the irs is less effecient (probably have heard the same info on it as you)....I believe the only thing that makes the c5 faster is the weight advantage and the aerodynamics....but it is indeed faster...All I can say Nuke is that dynos dont lie and GTOs have dyno'd considerbly less the LS1 Fbodies...whatever it may be

At least somebody has a brain around here! Antz is owned againBro your idiocracy has proven itself time and time again....Im owned cause nuke61 simply asked a question of my reply?

Black96WS6

02-12-2005, 10:07 PM

Still Steve, I have a hard time to believing that he was able to put 5 or more cars on the GTO (Asuming the GTO was driven by someone who could drive), at some point the GTO would get the RPMS up, and the LS1 would start working its magic, MAYBE it wouldn't pull back all the ground it would have lost, BUT I think it wouldn't have lost by that much...

I believe it. He raced an '04 GTO. Those things are heavy, plus it was an Auto, with the famous "Torque Mgt" feature. So we're talking 20% driveline loss plus Torque Management coming into play plus heavier car and then add driver into that equation. Trap times are lucky to be 102mph for a good driver in an auto '04 GTO. The LT1 has longtubes, which really wake up the LT1 plus misc bolt-ons such as the LT4 knock module so no timing is being pulled, custom tuning, plus more.

I don't see what's so bogus about this story.

Now if it was an '05 GTO manual, with the LS2, that Car and Driver ran to a 13.3@107, that would be different ;):

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8908&page_number=4

Black96WS6

02-12-2005, 10:08 PM

Yea id like to see some also...Im well aware its just a factory rating, and all I was stating is that the irs is less effecient (probably have heard the same info on it as you)....I believe the only thing that makes the c5 faster is the weight advantage and the aerodynamics....but it is indeed faster...All I can say Nuke is that dynos dont lie and GTOs have dyno'd considerbly less the LS1 Fbodies...whatever it may be

Antz you must be talking about the '04 LS1 GTOs. If that was the case, how can the LS2 '05's be running low 13's @107mph?:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8908&page_number=4

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 10:11 PM

Antz you must be talking about the '04 LS1 GTOs. If that was the case, how can the LS2 '05's be running low 13's @107mph?:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8908&page_number=4
Yea bro the car in discussion here is a LS1 GTO

robb4964

02-12-2005, 10:18 PM

:confused: Why would they be putting down less...there rated higher then fbodies from the factory...The reason they put down right around the same is because of the irs.
I think the bigger rear end soaks up a few ponies.

robb4964

02-12-2005, 10:21 PM

robb4964

02-12-2005, 10:27 PM

I believe it. He raced an '04 GTO. Those things are heavy, plus it was an Auto, with the famous "Torque Mgt" feature. So we're talking 20% driveline loss plus Torque Management coming into play plus heavier car and then add driver into that equation. Trap times are lucky to be 102mph for a good driver in an auto '04 GTO. The LT1 has longtubes, which really wake up the LT1 plus misc bolt-ons such as the LT4 knock module so no timing is being pulled, custom tuning, plus more.

I don't see what's so bogus about this story.

Now if it was an '05 GTO manual, with the LS2, that Car and Driver ran to a 13.3@107, that would be different ;):

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8908&page_number=4

The Auto bolt on Z's are running 13.4-13.7 here w/headers/cai/Tune/gears@102-105..Sticks average slightly better.
I saw a stock GTO run a 13.3@105 last summer. However it was a six speed ..04 of course.
AN LS2 GTO with a good driver will trap 109+

Most car mag drivers cant drive for ****. I have a car and driver test where they trapped 108 in a SC Cobra :confused: Was someone alseep at the wheel?
I know headers wake up the LT1's I have one with headers. It runs damn good but I wont exagerate its limits.Headers took my trap speed up 3mph on the Z.

robb4964

02-12-2005, 10:30 PM

Fact: LT1s put out more torque low rpm torque than LS1s. Fact: your car is lighter than a GTO. That's why you pulled him from a 35 mph roll. Try a roll start where each motor is spinning at 4000+ rpm and I bet the outcome would be different. Try it and get back to us.

GMhightechperfs project car the Grape of Wrath put out 235 rwhp with syn oils. They said this is very represetative of a good running stock LT1. Argue with them. :rolleyes: I saw another good running low mileage bone stock LT1 put out 220 rwhp. The tech forums are full of fact and bs. It's hard to tell, sometimes. Stock for stock my car and an LT1 is a very close race. You don't know what you are talking about. Newsflash: you have an automatic not a stick, therefore you lose about 20-30 rwhp compared to a stick. I am talking about your car not a 6-speed.

You have just turning into a complete whiney little a-hole because some people didn't agree with you.
I seen a stock LT1 Auto Dyno 234@nopi A few years ago.
And your right, the sticks Dyno WAY higher,20-30hp. Trap up to 2mph higher on average as well.

nuke61

02-12-2005, 10:37 PM

At least somebody has a brain around here! :bow: Antz is owned again.Actually, he wasn't owned. I believe the IRS eats more horses than a solid axle, simply because a U-Joint is less efficient than a straight roller bearing, there's no question.

The real question is whether there's proof that an IRS makes any *measurable* difference. I happen to think the difference is so negligible that it cannot be consistently measured, but don't have any evidence either way, and was simply asking if he had any evidence.

FYI, my Z28 with 100K plus miles with mods listed got low 260s SAE horsepower.

robb4964

02-12-2005, 10:39 PM

Actually, he wasn't owned. I believe the IRS eats more horses than a solid axle, simply because a U-Joint is less efficient than a straight roller bearing, there's no question.

The real question is whether there's proof that an IRS makes any *measurable* difference. I happen to think the difference is so negligible that it cannot be consistently measured, but don't have any evidence either way, and was simply asking if he had any evidence.

I think it does. The rear end in general has more mass to it. It robs some power..At least youd think it would.

Kris93/95Z28

02-12-2005, 10:48 PM

I believe it. He raced an '04 GTO. Those things are heavy, plus it was an Auto, with the famous "Torque Mgt" feature. So we're talking 20% driveline loss plus Torque Management coming into play plus heavier car and then add driver into that equation. Trap times are lucky to be 102mph for a good driver in an auto '04 GTO. The LT1 has longtubes, which really wake up the LT1 plus misc bolt-ons such as the LT4 knock module so no timing is being pulled, custom tuning, plus more. [/url]

I had all the bolt ons above (Minus KM) plus gears, etc.. in my 93 Z28.
I know what a bolt on LT1 is capable of. :bow:
I also know what an Auto 04 GTO is capable of. ;)
I have no doubts he would beat a 04 GTO
The thing that surprised me was that he continued to pull the GTO, and it wasn't able to gain any ground back. Even with the 93 Z28 mentioned above, I would have trouble leaving a LS1 after 70 mph... 1/4 wasn't the problem, the Roll or the highway was :cry:

mustangmuncher

02-12-2005, 11:38 PM

My lil LT1 ran a 14.1 with a 2.23x 60ft, bone stock.. with some off brand all seasons, that were on it when I bought it. Its an auto with the 3.23 gears, and lets just say for every tenth of the 60ft I dropped a tenth in the quarter mile, I feel pretty confident that my lil LT1 would have ran a 13 with decent street tires. I hate how all the Mustang guys think the 99-04 GT's are going to tear LT1's apart, I have raced several and not lost ONCE. The last one was a gears/intake/exhaust/manual versus my cat-back/intake/auto and it was at least 3 cars by 80 (dig)and pulling. I suppose if there was a manual LT1 and the guy bogged bad, the 4.6 would win, assuming it were a manual, the auto GT's are fairly crappy. All this mustang talk reminds me of the 99-04 special edition GTR mustang I saw. :D

Antz97ZNJ

02-12-2005, 11:57 PM

. I hate how all the Mustang guys think the 99-04 GT's are going to tear LT1's apart, I have raced several and not lost ONCE. The last one was a gears/intake/exhaust/manual versus my cat-back/intake/auto and it was at least 3 cars by 80 (dig)and pulling. I feel the same way bro, never even had close to a problem of beating one in either of my LT1's...but "some" like to think it would still be a drivers race..regardless of our own personel experiences.

Bersaglieri

02-13-2005, 12:18 AM

darrens99formul

02-13-2005, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the comments everyone. I have no reason to lie or exaggerate, I have nothing to prove to folks online, I proved it on the pavement. I just dont like being I told it didnt happen like it did or it isnt possible or hearing multiple excuses. I reported the truth trying to help out the thread originator. I really dont give a crap about stock LT1 anything or what average bolt on LT1's run in the 1/4 or what everyone thinks I am making at the wheels, every car is different, some bolt on LT1's run mid 12's. I must be making something decent though since I smoked the GTO by such a large margin. Maybe I just have a strong running magical LT1? Maybe its the 1LE elbow or my fan switch :D Also someone said something about the honks not being accurate, on the third honk I waited until he hit it, and then I did, so I gave him the jump.

I think someone was asking what MPH we raced to, it wasnt 75mph, it was somewhere around 120-130mph. It was colder outside and also early in the morning.

I also agree that had it been a 05 GTO I would have been killed.

I would love for someone who has a Stock Auto 04 GTO in the NE Ohio area to meet me and I'll race you at whatever speed you want as many times as you want and you can even film it. We can even do it on the same highway, its out in the country, no cops ever.

First off I apologise for the 4L60E lesson. I must have read the wrong sig because I thought you had a M6 and truly didn't know about dead spots.

Second, even though you both started at 35 that really isn't much of a dead spot for a LT1 since that engine makes peak torque at around 2500 rpm's. But for al LS1 it's a brutal starting point for a race. Your probably making about the same power as him so once the lead was established he had no real chance of making up any significant ground. Even though you refuse to accept it, the race would have been worlds different had it started at 25mph.

Right now your car with it's current mods should be around LS1 HP numbers with a tad more low end and a tad less top end. If you really want to know how strong your car is running then you need to hit a track and see what your trap speed is. But lets get back to a little reality here. Your car is NOT a mid 12 second car. Auto LT1's run low 14's stock and your mods are not going to shave off 1.5 seconds. But I bet you are running low 13's which is certainly fast enough to take out some stock LS1's. Maybe with a 2800 stall and some sticky tires you could be knocking on the door of mid 12's. Or you could get a big shot of N20 and go right to 11's :D

Good luck with finding a GTO to race and keep modding.

robb4964

02-13-2005, 10:53 AM

You live in Ohio? Bring that thing to edgewater.

Im sure there are gonna be plenty of stock GTO's there this season. :)

Steve Y

02-13-2005, 11:10 AM

Steve Y

02-13-2005, 11:17 AM

I hate how all the Mustang guys think the 99-04 GT's are going to tear LT1's apart, I have raced several and not lost ONCE.

And I hate how people lump "all Mustang guys" together. Stock for stock an LT1 and a 99+ GT is a driver's race. Deal with it.

Antz97ZNJ

02-13-2005, 12:27 PM

And I hate how people lump "all Mustang guys" together. Stock for stock an LT1 and a 99+ GT is a driver's race. Well thats good then nobody has to worry about racing yours

Kris93/95Z28

02-13-2005, 03:55 PM

Well thats good then nobody has to worry about racing yours

This is from the guy that came on this very board and posed about owning a LS1 F-Body :rolleyes: , You' re also the one who evaded MANY challenges from MANY members of this board... :rolleyes:

Of all people here, YOU aren't the one who should worry about others getting challenged, when you wouldn't step up to yours! :mad:

Steve Y

02-13-2005, 09:34 PM

This is from the guy that came on this very board and posed about owning a LS1 F-Body :rolleyes: , You' re also the one who evaded MANY challenges from MANY members of this board... :rolleyes:

Of all people here, YOU aren't the one who should worry about others getting challenged, when you wouldn't step up to yours! :mad:

Yep, he's a winner. :rolleyes:

Bersaglieri

02-13-2005, 11:48 PM

First off I apologise for the 4L60E lesson. I must have read the wrong sig because I thought you had a M6 and truly didn't know about dead spots.

Second, even though you both started at 35 that really isn't much of a dead spot for a LT1 since that engine makes peak torque at around 2500 rpm's. But for al LS1 it's a brutal starting point for a race. Your probably making about the same power as him so once the lead was established he had no real chance of making up any significant ground. Even though you refuse to accept it, the race would have been worlds different had it started at 25mph.

Right now your car with it's current mods should be around LS1 HP numbers with a tad more low end and a tad less top end. If you really want to know how strong your car is running then you need to hit a track and see what your trap speed is. But lets get back to a little reality here. Your car is NOT a mid 12 second car. Auto LT1's run low 14's stock and your mods are not going to shave off 1.5 seconds. But I bet you are running low 13's which is certainly fast enough to take out some stock LS1's. Maybe with a 2800 stall and some sticky tires you could be knocking on the door of mid 12's. Or you could get a big shot of N20 and go right to 11's :D

Good luck with finding a GTO to race and keep modding.

No problem man, no harm done with the Auto explaination.

Power wise when we traded info he said "well I am making like 350hp, how about you?" I said probably around the same. I understand that my car is making peak TQ at that level and his isnt till higher in the RPM's, even though it wasnt a thought at the time. I figured it would be a close match from any speed since I though the LS1 would rape me on high end. I am also not denying that it may have turned out differently at 25mph I just dont like excuses and speculation. With speculation I could also make claims that he'd be toast from a dig if I had DR's. I could make infinate claims about these kind of things, but I dont. Likewise, I find it annoying when others do it to my kills. I just reported what happened. I also never thought that an LS1 would need so many excuses as to why it lost.

For the third paragraph I agree with your estimation of my engine's output for the most part. Although I never once made claims of it being a mid 12 second car or a 12 second car at all. I was only stating to a few poorly informed posters that LT1's are to be taken a bit more seriously than they were making them out to be. Stating that I know of more than a few mid 12 second bolt on cars and that my car isnt making 310hp at the flywheel. For the curious my LT1 ran 14.2 bone stock to the rubber my first time to the track ever. Someone told me the altitude of the track but I forget. I would love to be in the low 13's, it would definately meet my expectations for having such low amounts of dime invested in my car.

Future modding, Traction is a must and balding GSC's arent getting it cut. I am going for new wider wheels like Stock Z06's, and some Goodyear F1's either GS-D3's or the Supercars if the wheels come with them. Nitto's are nice but I dont see the track much and I need more than 6/32 starting tread.

Not sure where edgewater is, perhaps near Astubula? There are plenty around here, I'll try to find the fella I raced before and we'll go from a dig, 25, 35, and 55-60.

Again I appriciate the educated posts and posters. Thread originator you found a nice weak spot, race a GTO from a 35 roll :D

Oh, Steve Y and Antz97ZNJ, meet at an airport, like Cleveland's Hopkins Airport and duke it out, I can be there to film if necessary :thumb: In all honesty Steve, you numbers on bolt on LT1's is dead wrong seriously do a search in LT1 tech and find what they make.

-Dustin-