$500 What Mod??? HELP!!!!!

I have about $500 to spend on my self as an accumulation of X-mas and B-day money! Its definatly going towards my car but im not sure what to do! I have a garage and another car to drive so time of install shouldnt matter! I have a 2000 SS A-4 with SLP MAF, SLP Lid, and a Cutout! Ive been talking to my uncle who is a big "old school Gearhead" and he's Convinced i should get roller rockers! Im not too familiar with them and what they do or what to look for so any help there would be great. Other things ive been thinking of are 3:73's, How much will those gears affect 1/4 times? And Headers and a Y-pipe, Also what h/p gains would i see with those? Stall converter and D/R's, But im pretty lost on what stall i should look for with my current set up! Maybe a Cam but agian im confused on what to look for and what power gains i would get from that alone! So tell me what you think and if there are any things i didnt mention im up for any ideals! Thanks

headers and y pipe, probably some uncoated ones given your budget, hooker or flow tech. I have the mods in the sig. and my next step, after the subwoofer I'm about to install, is gonna be a set of hookers and a y pipe.

Nitrous, or a nice set of long tube headers.

get some spare stock wheels and some sticky drag radials. By sticky, I don't mean Nittos.

Or get a good quality torque coverter with no less than a 3000 stall.

nittos get the job done... 245/50/16s snapped my axle... sticky enough for stock rear end....

Long Tubes! :)

Don't open the engine up yet for the roller rockers, save those for later

For 500 bucks, get some headers (MAC mids or longtubes) or a stall. A stall, given that you can still hook, will reduce your E/T by a lot

In my opinion your not going to go wrong with either gears or headers at this point in your mods. If you get headers by the way get coated or dont get them at all. Uncoated headers are a waste. I wouldnt worry about longtubes on a stock bottom end. Rocker arms might not be that bad of a mod, you can probably get 15hp from those I would say, and they are pretty easy to do. You wont be able to afford Nitrous. To get everything you would need for NOS it would probably cost you about $1000. So I would make gears and go with 4:10s not 3:73s my first choice, then rockers or headers.

Are you kidding? 4.10's w/ a A4? Wow, for a newbie, I think that would be alittle steep for his car, dont you think? I went w/ 3.73 and cat back and better street tires, and I gained .42 in the 1/4. I dont think that was too bad, and my gears are fine on the hwy, 4.10 I dont know.

Sorry wasnt paying attention to the fact he had an auto. 3:73s are fine.

...Uncoated headers are a waste....

:think: ummm you wanna explain that one to me?

:think: ummm you wanna explain that one to me?

Sure youll get an increase in power but the fact they are not ceramic coated means they generate a lot more heat thus reducing power, as well as placing harsher conditions on electrical components, ie wires and starter. I thought everyone kinda new that. My mistake.

... more heat thus reducing power

they dissipate more heat (they dont generate any) but I'd have to see a dyno sheet to actually believe that it has an impact on power output (and not a dyno sheet given out by the header manufacturer, an independent dyno sheet). The air intake tract is pretty well isolated from the heat of the headers. Besides all of that, most of the really high quality and high dollar headers are made of UNcoated stainless steel (kooks, flp, and hooker has a stainless header now) which will get every bit as hot as uncoated regular steel. Its true that ceramic coatings reduce the heat dissipation from the headers (which is a reason I will be getting ceramic coated headers) but that doesn't make uncoated headers "worthless", especially to someone who is on a budget, which the thread starter is.

They are less efficiant, and I dont know why you insist on arguing a point that has been accepted by everyone except for you. Coated headers reduce heat and that means the motor will be able to make more power. So what if they are stainless steel, they still will make more heat then a coated set of stainless steel headers. While not worthless because you will still make more power then the stock manifolds, I just dont see the reason to get something because hes on a budget. If thats the case he can get a set of gears and assuming he does the work himself he can get it done for well under 300, even if he has to pay someone the work will should not total much more then 500. If you want to buy uncoated headers for your car go right ahead. If it were me and I am in the same situation since I am buying headers soon, I am waiting until I can pay afford the coated ones. And I cant stand people that say "oh i want to see a dyno sheet", apply common sense to this if you have any. More Heat=Less Power, Less Heat=More Power. And after reading your post closer I see your getting ceramic coated headers. Well damn if your so unconvinced they make that much of a differance why not save a little money and get uncoated ones. You dont have to be on a budget to settle for a cheaper product. You just proved my point jackass. Ceramic coated are better. Get a set of gears then when you have saved enough get ceramic coated headers.

wow, jackass huh? You prove to me that uncoated headers are worthless and I'll admit to being a jackass. Do you even know WHY more heat=less power (it doesn't by the way). Actually the reverse is true, the more power the engine makes the hotter it will tend to get as excess energy is given off as heat. So actually more heat = MORE power, indirectly. What you're trying to regurgitate to me is that if the intake temperature is high then the density of the air will will be low, and this is true, but the headers are a good ways away from the intake tract and wont have a signifigant effect on intake air temperature. NOTICE PLEASE I said "signifigant effect", not "no effect". I want some concrete proof not something you read in a ceramic coating advertisement. Give me a dyno sheet, give me a comparison of air intake temps with uncoated and ceramic coated headers. Can't stand people that want dyno sheets? Well I can't stand ignorant morons who pay hundreds of dollars for crap they read in an advertisement. You're a ****ing idiot that believes everything you read, no better than the rice boy that thinks his civic runs 10's with a CAI. The main reason I'm getting ceramic coated headers is because they stay looking nice instead of all rusted (I'm anal about that stuff so sue me) NOT because there is going to be some kind of relevent power difference between the two. It's also funny to see you write about "using common sense" then start the name calling and an immature pissing contest, but if thats what you want then that's what you'll get, I'm not too grown up to make you look like an idiot. So to sum it all up you think anyone who gets a $1000 set of FLP's or Kooks and doesn't get them ceramic coated is basically throwing their money away :lol: ...

They are less efficiant...

Oh forgot about this little shard of genius from you....

No, fool, they are every bit as efficient, the inside of the header is not ceramic coated so they are just as effecient (or inefficient if you prefer) as regular headers. They do dissipate less heat though, although this has nothing to do with the efficiency of the header.

First I didnt say that uncoated headers are worthless, I said they are a waste, as in a waste of money if they are not coated to begin with. Also you CAN have them coated inside and out along with coating the Ypipe, which is what I will be doing. Uncoated headers will emit more heat then coated ones thus heating up the engine bay tempretures which will increase the tempreture of the air that goes into the intake. Whether these are significant increases or not the point can not be argued that a car sucking in HOT air will not make as much power as a car sucking in COLD air. Denser air promotes better air/fuel mixture which will make for better power. Well gee if thats all you want them to do is look good then buy uncoated and go to Lowes and get a can of spray paint (any color you like) that can withstand tempretures of 2000 degress or more and paint your headers and save yourself the money of getting them coated. Who knows maybe I just gave you an idea that you hadnt thought of before. Also people that need a dyno machine to help them through every decision they make make me sick. F#ck a dyno, they dont take into effect every condition that is encountered outside the shop they are in.

First I didnt say that uncoated headers are worthless, I said they are a waste, as in a waste of money if they are not coated to begin with. Also you CAN have them coated inside and out along with coating the Ypipe, which is what I will be doing. Uncoated headers will emit more heat then coated ones thus heating up the engine bay tempretures which will increase the tempreture of the air that goes into the intake. Whether these are significant increases or not the point can not be argued that a car sucking in HOT air will not make as much power as a car sucking in COLD air. Denser air promotes better air/fuel mixture which will make for better power. Well gee if thats all you want them to do is look good then buy uncoated and go to Lowes and get a can of spray paint (any color you like) that can withstand tempretures of 2000 degress or more and paint your headers and save yourself the money of getting them coated. Who knows maybe I just gave you an idea that you hadnt thought of before. Also people that need a dyno machine to help them through every decision they make make me sick. F#ck a dyno, they dont take into effect every condition that is encountered outside the shop they are in.

First I didnt say that uncoated headers are worthless, I said they are a waste, as in a waste of money if they are not coated to begin with. Also you CAN have them coated inside and out along with coating the Ypipe, which is what I will be doing. Uncoated headers will emit more heat then coated ones thus heating up the engine bay tempretures which will increase the tempreture of the air that goes into the intake. Whether these are significant increases or not the point can not be argued that a car sucking in HOT air will not make as much power as a car sucking in COLD air. Denser air promotes better air/fuel mixture which will make for better power. Well gee if thats all you want them to do is look good then buy uncoated and go to Lowes and get a can of spray paint (any color you like) that can withstand tempretures of 2000 degress or more and paint your headers and save yourself the money of getting them coated. Who knows maybe I just gave you an idea that you hadnt thought of before. Also people that need a dyno machine to help them through every decision they make make me sick. F#ck a dyno, they dont take into effect every condition that is encountered outside the shop they are in.

F#ck a dyno, they dont take into effect every condition that is encountered outside the shop they are in.

Yeah, conditions like cool air moving through the engine compartment drawing heat off of the headers and away from the air box :rolleyes: . Don't get me wrong in any of this. I definately see the point of ceramic coating, it has its benefits, but those benefits simply do not make uncoated headers obsolete and "a waste". When I buy headers, i'll pay the extra little bit to have them coated, but I'm not gonna pretend that the coating is gonna give me some magic boost in power. The guy asked what he could do with $500, I said headers and since coated headers are more expensive, suggested uncoated ones. Now...since it took him from christmas till now to save up $500 I'd say he's on a tight budget and could then be perfectly justified in buying uncoated headers which, while giving off more heat and looking all crusty, will provide him with a pretty decent boost in power. Again I've never heard of header heat damaging anything under the hood (unless something was resting right on it) but you could get some insulating wrap and cover whatever you want protected for a lot cheaper than ceramic coating. Maybe this is an idea YOU haven't heard of. Btw...what do you hope to accomplish by coating the inside of the header? Keep them cooler? Flow better? Not trying to be a smart ass I just really don't know what that would accomplish.

You might need another $50, and you'd have to install it yourself, but I'd go for a TCI 3500 Torque Converter

Worth every penny. Way more SOTP than gears or headers or anything else you can do. And it'll make you lose some serious ET at the track. Buddy of mine lost 7 TENTHS.

The fact that the inside of the header wasnt coated was part of your arguement not mine. Its essentially insulation for the inside as well, doubly enhancing the fact they are coated on the outside. While rare headers have been known to generate enough heat to fry wires and starters mainly and that will certainly be more likely if he gets uncoated ones. The fact it took him a month to save $500 isnt that bad in my opinion. Id either wait a while longer and get coated ones or I would get gears. Unless he plans on putting the headers on himself any shop is certainly going to charge him more then 150 to put them on so he wont be able to afford them anyway. Go with gears or rocker arms, you definitly get as much bang for the buck as you get with headers. And the torque convertor is definitly a good idea, I keep forgetting were talking about an automatic. Think about it if coating headers results in a 2-3% decrease in tempreture there is going to be performance gains from that no matter how you look at it. If there was no benifite then nobody would be getting ceramic coated headers.

I would get a torque converter if i were you. They are expensive, but you can get them custom made by someone local for your specific car and plans for alot cheaper and should work better.

wish i could save $500 every month.... at that pace... my car would be insaine,....lol

I know a shop that will install my headers AND my off road pipe for $425, plus they said they would install my plugs for that as well. I'll leave out the name for now until I get mine done incase any EPA is listening! ;)

Let us not over look what should be done fist, safety safety safety! I will go out on a limb here ;) , but you prob cant hookup,right? How about some help w/ the traction first. I know it isnt as fun as gears or a conv, but you will still need to hookup!FWIW

Get a converter. This will be the best mod you can do for a A4. I would look at a 3500 stall at the minimum.

In my opinion your not going to go wrong with either gears or headers at this point in your mods. If you get headers by the way get coated or dont get them at all. Uncoated headers are a waste. I wouldnt worry about longtubes on a stock bottom end. Rocker arms might not be that bad of a mod, you can probably get 15hp from those I would say, and they are pretty easy to do. You wont be able to afford Nitrous. To get everything you would need for NOS it would probably cost you about $1000. So I would make gears and go with 4:10s not 3:73s my first choice, then rockers or headers.
WOW snake... :confused:

DO NOT GET ROLLER ROCKERS!!!!! That is something you dont neee right now .
No LT header's are a waste of money . No matter if they are coated or not you are going to see some gains . You may have a 1 hp loss from uncoated after the car has been running for a while. ANd what in the world is the stock bottom end thing supposed to mean ? Are you kidding ?
Roller rockers wont do much good without headers anway .
And IMO the first thing you should get is gears . It accents a stock setup fairly well and dont cost much . You should see a good gain from it .
Then do headers .
You should consider some free mods . I did a FRA mod on my car before I converted it to OEM ram air and it made a HUGE difference once the car was in motion . It is not a waste of time and nets good power . At least 15HP , no joke!
W/e you decide to do , good luck .

500 bucks isnt gunna get you alot. Is this 500 for the part or part and labor? Most of us dont have enough tools or time or space to do a cam install or headers etc. So that gets a stuck with the labor and you sound like a kid so i doubt your gunna have a wide array of tools at your disposal and these motors are very sophisticated and not your regular SBC. You have to tune the ecm etc, parts are expensive and complicated to install.

I am no mechanic and have no endevor to be one. I do concider my self "knowledgeable" about my car but no expert.

If your just starting out, just get a lid and catback. 2 best mods for the buck. All these jokers who say LT's want you to get a cheap ass pair of painted headers that are going to get your engine bay so hot you are going to lose hp. Then you have to get a Y pipe another 2-4 depending if you want it off road or emissions legal.

Gears are redicilous at this point. What you want him to blow the rear end? With gears comes a spedo calibration, and the risk that you will blow your rear faster.

Roller Rockers are good and they are good for 15-20 hp but most roller rockers require hardened pushrods and new valve springs. Thats more money that your prob dont have plus its a mod that works with a cam if you dont know what size cam your going to get if you choose to then dont open up the motor until that time since you will just end up changeing the springs over twice.

MAF- Is good for 2-5hp at BEST plus it may require a tune depending on what you want plus it costs 300 dollars and is not very economical


This is what I would do:
SLP Lid-a lid is a lid good for 8-10 hp
catback, for the money LM good for another 5-10
that brings you to 540 or so. The good part is that the lid you can do yourself along with the catback since all you do is clamp it on. Thats a good 20hp or so and those mods are staples for a good running car. Also, you can do other mods such as Headers, etc and it wont impact your catback at all.
Then save up for a good cam, LS6 intake or LSX, then roller rockers, MAF and a tune and you should push some serious HP


Also NO WAY WILL TEH FRA NET 15HP maybe fly which translates to 3-5 at the wheels. All the FRA mods net about 15hp all together like ported MAF, FRA, EGR mod etc.

Free mods are good but alone they dont net much.

Also you cant feel any Ram Air mod until you reach speeds of atleast 70 plus. So if your driven around town you arent gunna feel it

500 bucks isnt gunna get you alot. Is this 500 for the part or part and labor? Most of us dont have enough tools or time or space to do a cam install or headers etc. So that gets a stuck with the labor and you sound like a kid so i doubt your gunna have a wide array of tools at your disposal and these motors are very sophisticated and not your regular SBC. You have to tune the ecm etc, parts are expensive and complicated to install.

I am no mechanic and have no endevor to be one. I do concider my self "knowledgeable" about my car but no expert.

If your just starting out, just get a lid and catback. 2 best mods for the buck. All these jokers who say LT's want you to get a cheap ass pair of painted headers that are going to get your engine bay so hot you are going to lose hp. Then you have to get a Y pipe another 2-4 depending if you want it off road or emissions legal.

Gears are redicilous at this point. What you want him to blow the rear end? With gears comes a spedo calibration, and the risk that you will blow your rear faster.

Roller Rockers are good and they are good for 15-20 hp but most roller rockers require hardened pushrods and new valve springs. Thats more money that your prob dont have plus its a mod that works with a cam if you dont know what size cam your going to get if you choose to then dont open up the motor until that time since you will just end up changeing the springs over twice.

MAF- Is good for 2-5hp at BEST plus it may require a tune depending on what you want plus it costs 300 dollars and is not very economical


This is what I would do:
SLP Lid-a lid is a lid good for 8-10 hp
catback, for the money LM good for another 5-10
that brings you to 540 or so. The good part is that the lid you can do yourself along with the catback since all you do is clamp it on. Thats a good 20hp or so and those mods are staples for a good running car. Also, you can do other mods such as Headers, etc and it wont impact your catback at all.
Then save up for a good cam, LS6 intake or LSX, then roller rockers, MAF and a tune and you should push some serious HP


Also NO WAY WILL TEH FRA NET 15HP maybe fly which translates to 3-5 at the wheels. All the FRA mods net about 15hp all together like ported MAF, FRA, EGR mod etc.

Free mods are good but alone they dont net much.
I kinda agree with you .
Lid/catback are a great combo as long as you get a really good flowing catback , youll see GREAT results from the 2 .
But I can tell your no mechanic . 3:73's are not gonna" BLOW " his rear end . Some auto's make it into the 10's and I have over 14 4th gen f-body guys in the loacal club deep into the 12's and high 11's beating their cars every weekend pulling 1.6-1.9 sixties in their auto's and have yet to have a problem with the stock 10 bolt...sticks are another story .
You wont be dissapointed with gears unless you are on the highway alot . If you are you wont get near as good gas milage with an auto .
As far as headers go ...Um....LT's are Great ! I dont care if they are painted or not . If he has the money for coated ones...great..fantastic! They are the way to go if you have the money . But uncoated headers will do pretty much the same job for ths most part . Most of my friends have done Uncoated and everytime had pretty much the same results as me and mine are coated .
And the FRA nets a good amount of HP . I have exp. this first hand . I helped more then one friend do this and the ported Mass air flow housing and seen more then 2 tenths on one occaasion at the track . It is more then 3-5 HP at the wheels . At is at elast 10 in most cases .Specially if you combine the lid/FRA/ported MAF. You see more of this with a stick then auto .
BTW , the Y-pipe comes with the headers .
I got my coated headers and Y-pipe shipped to my door for 300$
ANd you dont have to be a GREAT mechanic to put the cam in . You just need basic mechanical skills and be redy to spend some time researching and working on the car .
But Dollar for dollar you may be right about the lid/catback .
texas speed made 14HP to the wheels with their TSP catback and It sounds DAMN good too ! :D

I apoligize for not responding quicker! And to the last 2 people that responded, I already have a SLP Lid and a Cut-out that i run open all the time better than cat-back right?? Im still debating either headers although im totally confused after that big debate! Gears or a torque converter and D/R's! Can someone give me a good estimate of gains with each of these! Im looking more at Torque converter and stickies!!! Thanks

If your cutout is under the passenger rear seat, be wary. I had an electric cutout dump there, and all the hot exhaust turned the metal black and started chipping the paint off. It also caused a lot of rattles inside the car. The best way to mount a cutout is the way a Borla exhaust is designed, so that the exhaust goes out the back of the car.

I'd get a spare set of wheels and some drag radials or slicks. If you do any bracket racing, you need to be consistent. And get a line lock too, so you can properly heat those slicks up. Your car doesn't need to be fast, just consistent.

snapped my axle on stock power... but installed a spec clutch just before.. on nittos... pics in sig...

I kinda agree with you .
Lid/catback are a great combo as long as you get a really good flowing catback , youll see GREAT results from the 2 .
But I can tell your no mechanic . 3:73's are not gonna" BLOW " his rear end . Some auto's make it into the 10's and I have over 14 4th gen f-body guys in the loacal club deep into the 12's and high 11's beating their cars every weekend pulling 1.6-1.9 sixties in their auto's and have yet to have a problem with the stock 10 bolt...sticks are another story .
You wont be dissapointed with gears unless you are on the highway alot . If you are you wont get near as good gas milage with an auto .
As far as headers go ...Um....LT's are Great ! I dont care if they are painted or not . If he has the money for coated ones...great..fantastic! They are the way to go if you have the money . But uncoated headers will do pretty much the same job for ths most part . Most of my friends have done Uncoated and everytime had pretty much the same results as me and mine are coated .
And the FRA nets a good amount of HP . I have exp. this first hand . I helped more then one friend do this and the ported Mass air flow housing and seen more then 2 tenths on one occaasion at the track . It is more then 3-5 HP at the wheels . At is at elast 10 in most cases .Specially if you combine the lid/FRA/ported MAF. You see more of this with a stick then auto .
BTW , the Y-pipe comes with the headers .
I got my coated headers and Y-pipe shipped to my door for 300$
ANd you dont have to be a GREAT mechanic to put the cam in . You just need basic mechanical skills and be redy to spend some time researching and working on the car .
But Dollar for dollar you may be right about the lid/catback .
texas speed made 14HP to the wheels with their TSP catback and It sounds DAMN good too ! :D


Where did you get coated LT'S and a Y pipe for 300? I live in an emissions area so i would need the cats on the y pipe. Thats more dough. In the end for LT's that you buy at tbyrne or so the cheapest ones are flowtechs for 269.99 uncoated and it does not mention a y pipe. It also doesnt mention anything about emissions equipment. Almost every egr compatable header is 600 plus. The Y pipe is also sold seperate. http://www.tbyrnemotorsports.com/ls1catalog.html

I have heard too many horror stories and witnessed first hand the 10 bolt takeing a dump with even 3:73's in them after 2-3k miles. It maybe different in your auto (shift points may be gentler on the rear?) but all the ones i have seen are sticks and the rears were swapped out around the 30-50k mile mark. Just do a search and listen to all teh board members who have had trouble. My rear is already on the way out at 71k miles. With almost no abuse.

The MAF i would do later when i decided what cam i wanted to put in etc.

EDIT:
Ok, i saw your post you have a lid and cutout, I would get then get LT's if you can find a set in your price range. Gears etc wont net any hp just take time off your et. Either that or a good stall. The only way to make an auto real fast is a stall no way around it. Gears would later follow but just be wary of your rear.

I apoligize for not responding quicker! And to the last 2 people that responded, I already have a SLP Lid and a Cut-out that i run open all the time better than cat-back right??
It may be becasue I have a Bigger cam but with my cutout open I gained nothing what so ever at thee track . I didnt have the cutout when It was stock though .

Where did you get coated LT'S and a Y pipe for 300? I live in an emissions area so i would need the cats on the y pipe. Thats more dough. In the end for LT's that you buy at tbyrne or so the cheapest ones are flowtechs for 269.99 uncoated and it does not mention a y pipe. It also doesnt mention anything about emissions equipment. Almost every egr compatable header is 600 plus. The Y pipe is also sold seperate. http://www.tbyrnemotorsports.com/ls1catalog.html

I have heard too many horror stories and witnessed first hand the 10 bolt takeing a dump with even 3:73's in them after 2-3k miles. It maybe different in your auto (shift points may be gentler on the rear?) but all the ones i have seen are sticks and the rears were swapped out around the 30-50k mile mark. Just do a search and listen to all teh board members who have had trouble. My rear is already on the way out at 71k miles. With almost no abuse.

The MAF i would do later when i decided what cam i wanted to put in etc.

EDIT:
Ok, i saw your post you have a lid and cutout, I would get then get LT's if you can find a set in your price range. Gears etc wont net any hp just take time off your et. Either that or a good stall. The only way to make an auto real fast is a stall no way around it. Gears would later follow but just be wary of your rear.

I dont have an auto.
And about the gears ..all i was saying is I have friends with Auto's that have never had a problem . A stick would be quick to break a 10 bolt.
I am well aware of the mebers who have trouble with 10 bolts . You missed my point . Im saying an AUTOMATIC dont have nearly the amount of trouble as a stick and sometimes lasts until the 10's . If he has an auto Id do gears .
And yes gears WILL net you time in the quarter . Not one of my friends has done gears and not seen time from it . And the shift points have nothing to do with the rear end breaking at all . Its the take off . A torque converter suplies a steady application of power thrue the RPM band as to where a Clutch puts down a large percentage of the power all at one time not giving the rearend/ax;es time to absorb/disrtibute the energy and putting to much pressure on one point in the rear end thus snapping wichever part got to much energy@one time ....breaking it under the pressure . Like I said before I have over a dozen friends with automatic 10 bolts that beat the eyes out of them and Havent had any probs yet . Not saying they cant break but for the most part they should hold up fine . I cant sress enough there is a big diff between the way a stick and an auto puts down power .

I will see if I can find the place I bought my headers from . I posted it here on the forums when I firrst bought them so everyone could take a shot at getting them . Ill look and if I find it ill repost . The headers are GREAT and they fit perfect .

snapped my axle on stock power... but installed a spec clutch just before.. on nittos... pics in sig...
You have a 6 speed . Im speaking of auto's . I remeber when yours broke I saw pics of the axle you posted . This also happened to my best friend but he has a M6 as well .

I looked at my archives and found my old link I posted . I clicked it and I dont think they are in business anymore . I know it took alot of investagating at the time to find them . It was a little over a year ago . Prices may have also risen on the Pacesetters. It was a little over 300 shipped as they where offering some kind of a discount for a promotion to their web site . :( to bad! Ill keep looking .

I looked at my archives and found my old link I posted . I clicked it and I dont think they are in business anymore . I know it took alot of investagating at the time to find them . It was a little over a year ago . Prices may have also risen on the Pacesetters. It was a little over 300 shipped as they where offering some kind of a discount for a promotion to their web site . :( to bad! Ill keep looking .


I appreciate it thanks bud.