GTO...Hmmm...

This is something that has bothered me about certain cars in the past, but perhaps is now painfully apparent now that GTO has not lived up to certain claims...

The goat stickers for what...$33k? $34k? Loaded. To the flippin gills. Leather, high-end sound system (for GM anyway) etc etc. I know it wasnt practical because of importation and such, but what could have been, if say, GTO was given an option list with more than one box to check?

Could it have meant more sales? Ecspecially in the early part of the '04 run? A $28k goat with cloth seats and a regular stereo might have drawn in quite a few more purchases, couldnt it have?

It's not the price.....

It's the ugly styling! :cry:

It's not the price.....

It's the ugly styling! :cry:

yep. I already own a 1999 Grand Prix. I dont need another.

It's not the price.....

It's the ugly styling! :cry:


I dont know how anyone could call this car ugly. It looks like a typical pontiac (a little better in my opinion, besides the trans am). The only complaint I have ever heard about Pontiac's styling (excluding the Aztec) is all of the "body cladding" which they have done away with. Aside from the big flower petal wheels most people I know who have looked at one close up in person think these are very good looking cars. :bow: I'm waiting to see a few with some aftermarket wheels.....same with the new mustangs.... :)

yep. I already own a 1999 Grand Prix. I dont need another.


And Camaro's look like Geo Storms and Chyrsler Sebrings... :rolleyes:

:tired:

I hate jumping in often on this, because I feel like I am trying to "defend" my car... but how many times can this be said like it is some new revelation?

Actually, Camaros DO look like mini Geo Storms. That's because the Storm was styled to look like a mini camaro. That's why it has the same style of headlights, taillights, rear glass and even the B-pillar shape of the camaro was replicated (though in glass).

Actually, Camaros DO look like mini Geo Storms. That's because the Storm was styled to look like a mini camaro. That's why it has the same style of headlights, taillights, rear glass and even the B-pillar shape of the camaro was replicated (though in glass).


Geo Storm came out in 1990, so that would make the 4th gen look like the Geo Storm, not the storm be styled after the 4th gen camaro :)

And Camaro's look like Geo Storms and Chyrsler Sebrings... :rolleyes:

:tired:

I hate jumping in often on this, because I feel like I am trying to "defend" my car... but how many times can this be said like it is some new revelation?

Best to ignore them. These people who call the GTO ugly would probably rather be driving a cartoon than a car.

I think it looks fine -- a little more front overhang than the modern RWD style (derived from BMW/Mercedes), but less than FWD vehicles. It looks a lot like what a RWD 2 door Grand Prix would look like. What's wrong with that?

People whining about the GTO not looking like an original GTO don't seem to be whining about the GP not looking like an original GP. Why not?

Best to ignore them. These people who call the GTO ugly would probably rather be driving a cartoon than a car.

Maybe they just have a different opinion based on their different tastes?

Maybe they just have a different opinion based on their different tastes?

Could be, but I don't think so. I think they're mostly trolling.

If the GTO looks like a GP, and you own a GP, and you think the GTO is ugly, then why do you have a GP?

Darth.. don't you know.... any car that isn't retro is ugly :D

Could be, but I don't think so. I think they're mostly trolling.

If the GTO looks like a GP, and you own a GP, and you think the GTO is ugly, then why do you have a GP?

I should restate by reasoning for not liking the GTO.
Its not because I think it s ugly...its because I think it looks blan and unoriginal.

I've only seen 2-3 GTO in my area on the road, and every time I've seen one I thought it was a Grand Prix or Sunfire.

Also I could give a rats ass if it looked like a "retro" GTO. I'm not even asking for hood scopes (and I might say the '05 scopes are a sorry excuse for scopes).

All I have to say is make it look like the Woodward car and I'm all for it.

im pretty sure the Monaro (what the GTO is) was made prior to that '99 Grand Prix.... so... yeah...

im pretty sure the Monaro (what the GTO is) was made prior to that '99 Grand Prix.... so... yeah...

Nobody is saying the GTO is modeled after the Grand Prix, but it sure does look similar, and could definitely look more aggressive.

I can understand saying the GTO is bland, but ugly? Methinks some of us have forgotten the true meaning of ugly. (http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/01aztek_awd1-1.jpg) :D:p

I should restate by reasoning for not liking the GTO.
Its not because I think it s ugly...its because I think it looks blan and unoriginal.

I've only seen 2-3 GTO in my area on the road, and every time I've seen one I thought it was a Grand Prix or Sunfire.

Also I could give a rats ass if it looked like a "retro" GTO. I'm not even asking for hood scopes (and I might say the '05 scopes are a sorry excuse for scopes).

All I have to say is make it look like the Woodward car and I'm all for it.

I don't care for the styling of the Woodward car; I would say it falls under the "cartoon" category. I prefer the "bland", I guess. I'll take the engine, though!

The GTO is not ugly. I'm not a fan buy my arguement isn't that it's ugly.


It's simply far too bland to be a halo, don't tell me the unintiated are gonna know the difference between 04' and maybe 05' GTOs and GPs because I have to look at least twice myself. :p

Perhaps GTO is a little on the bland side, but I think it looks fine. Plus after installing an amp in an 04 Goat last week and just sitting in it let alone tearing it apart, I just love it. The GTO is one badass car. Everyone has to cry about it though.

I am a fan of the new GTO, and I really don't understand all the hate. Would there be as much hate for the car if it had a different name?

For years lots of people complained about Pontiacs having all of this plastic cladding, rib sided styling. Now that it is gone Pontiac is to plain. I like the clean lines of the GTO, but it could be a bit more aggresive. The GTO was thrown together in a hurry because Lutz wanted it over here as a Pontiac. I think things will improve as it goes on. Hopefully we will see something close to the Woodard GTO pretty soon, but probably not until the next generation.

Finally had an opportunity to drive the gto tonight, um..... wtf is up with the clunk in the door. The trunk is smaller than the useable space in an FBODY! interior is pretty good. but went over a bump, my back almost went out. Space in the rear is great, but getting into the rear seat was harder than fbod.

Finally had an opportunity to drive the gto tonight, um..... wtf is up with the clunk in the door. The trunk is smaller than the useable space in an FBODY! interior is pretty good. but went over a bump, my back almost went out. Space in the rear is great, but getting into the rear seat was harder than fbod.


Well that clunk u are talking about is an improperly installed rear end mount that Pontiac is fixing. And the reason y it is harder to get into the back is for the lack of the biggest complaint of the F-body = The titanic sized doors. The GTO does not have obese doors.

Styling is opinionated can't go by that. What u can go by is the dealer gouging and the no rebates. I own a silver 04 and everyone loves it and thinks the car is great styling wise and interior wise. Most people don't even know what it is. But I tried to purchase one when they came out and the gouging was redic and the no rebates and that is y i didn't buy it then.

I've only seen 2-3 GTO in my area on the road, and every time I've seen one I thought it was a Grand Prix or Sunfire.


It's amazing how the Aussie designers made a rear-wheel-drive performance car look like a downmarket, mainstream front-wheel-drive product.

I've only seen 2-3 GTO in my area on the road, and every time I've seen one I thought it was a Grand Prix or Sunfire.

It does look like a GP, but Sunfire?????????? :confused: you might as well said is that a GTO.... oopps it's an H2. I personally see a lot of BMW in the '04 GTO

All I have to say is make it look like the Woodward car and I'm all for it.

I'd love to see that too :bow: the Woodward car was awesome. I doubt the '06 will look like that, but hopfully the all new 2007 get some of that styling. It is agressive while at the same time clean and not over the top.

It does look like a GP, but Sunfire?????????? :confused: I personally see a lot of BMW in the '04 GTO


Look at the C-pillar on both the GTO and Sunfire, then look at the rear end. Both cars are curvy in a mid-90s GM sort of way. The GTO and Sunfire share more design "inspiration" with a '95 Lumina than any current BMW.

A gentleman from Australia who posted on another board explained the styling to everyone.

Many of the "performance" sedans built in Australia are based on cars that are also used as Taxi's. Thus, what you get is gussied up taxi's. It is kinda similar to the Impala SS/ Caprice and the Marauder/ Crown Vic.

Basically, what it makes for is kinda bland, or boring, performance cars.

A gentleman from Australia who posted on another board explained the styling to everyone.

Many of the "performance" sedans built in Australia are based on cars that are also used as Taxi's. Thus, what you get is gussied up taxi's. It is kinda similar to the Impala SS/ Caprice and the Marauder/ Crown Vic.

Basically, what it makes for is kinda bland, or boring, performance cars.

Keep in mind that there are fewer than 20 million people in Australia, or about half as many as in California. So they are limited to the number of distinct models they can offer.

Still, in what way did the original GTO differ from a Tempest? Some hood scoops and stripes? I have a picture of a '73 GTO in my office. It looks a lot like a '73 Le Mans.

It's amazing how the Aussie designers made a rear-wheel-drive performance car look like a downmarket, mainstream front-wheel-drive product.

What do you think a GTO is?
It's a two door version of the Australian mass market family sedan.
Just like a Monte Carlo is related to the Impala.

The only difference is that the mass market family sedan in Australia is RWD and can be ordered with a V8.

And if you look at it from the side, it's pretty clear that it has RWD proportions, not front wheel drive. Check out the base of front window to front axle distance. Clearly a RWD proportion.

Actualy, I belive the Monaro got a lot of praise when it first came out because of its sleek design.
It just doesnt have the wings, scoops, and all the other doo-dads to satisfy everyones inner-ricer, so its "boring and mundane".

You mean it doesn't have the muscular looks it should, making it a boring car to look at. I've seen some of them that were aggressive looking, we just got the most boring version.

Actualy, I belive the Monaro got a lot of praise when it first came out because of its sleek design.
It just doesnt have the wings, scoops, and all the other doo-dads to satisfy everyones inner-ricer, so its "boring and mundane".

No, it's not the lack of scoops or wings. It's the fact that the shape of the entire car is akin to a wretchedly, painfully boring daily driver. I've seen plenty of GTO's driving down the road, and after initially dismissing them as an everyday family Sedan that my old grade school principal might drive, I realized that they were actually GTOs.

Throwing hood scopes or wings on a GTO to make it more aggressive-looking would be like throwing a lantern into a black hole to make it brighter.

Very true, the shape of the car is a part of the problem. Maybe more aggressive GFX or something would do some good.

I won't call it ugly, except for the wheels. :barf:

I will say that it looks like a more boring version of a 1997 Grand Prix 2 door. Face it, we can't have the same look for 9 model years. The GTO looks very stale. Also, if you squint hard enough, you can see the rear end of a Nissian Sentra SE-R, and the side windows look like a Cavalier. It doesn't seem orginal to me at all.

I think they should have called this car the Monaro, because that is what it is. It isn't a GTO, the only American part in it is the V8. And the styling isn't in your face American, its more conserative European.

I won't call it ugly, except for the wheels. :barf:

I will say that it looks like a more boring version of a 1997 Grand Prix 2 door. Face it, we can't have the same look for 9 model years. The GTO looks very stale. Also, if you squint hard enough, you can see the rear end of a Nissian Sentra SE-R, and the side windows look like a Cavalier. It doesn't seem orginal to me at all.

I think they should have called this car the Monaro, because that is what it is. It isn't a GTO, the only American part in it is the V8. And the styling isn't in your face American, its more conserative European.

Why does American have to mean "in your face"? A single word synonym for "in your face" is "obnoxious".

Most of the historical GTO's (The Judge being a notable exception) were not "in your face".

You know, Pontiac deleted their cladding from newer models in an attempt to clean up the styling of their cars. I think they succeeded, and the GTO falls into the newer style.

It's not a car that draws lots of attention to itself, and it wasn't meant to be. It was really aimed at being a sort of 645i or CLK500 that was affordable to the common buyer.

If the GTO did have "in your face American styling", people would have criticized it for that (probably different people). I think GM can't win here. I doubt it really makes a difference to sales -- many of the complainers would not have bought one anyway, and they would have lost sales to those who like the GTO the way it is.

the 93-02 Firebirds/Trans Ams didn't have body cladding, and were very in your face, love me or hate me type of look. I'll agree that body cladding does suck and looks tacky, but you can design a very aggresive car without using it.

I think a lot of people are let down by the GTO because it didn't follow the same formula for styling that the old Trans Ams did. The old formula was make it look like nothing else on the road. Now we have the GTO that looks like everything else on the road.

The best part about all the GTO bashers is.... when Holden had Monaro, and there was no GTO.... a lot of these GTO bashers were crying and crying "Why do the other countries always get all the good stuff"?!?!?

:lol:

The best part about all the GTO bashers is.... when Holden had Monaro, and there was no GTO.... a lot of these GTO bashers were crying and crying "Why do the other countries always get all the good stuff"?!?!?

:lol:

So true, that is all you heard before the Monaro was imported and named GTO. Makes one wonder how the car would have been received by enthusists had it been named Pontiac Monaro.

Look at the C-pillar on both the GTO and Sunfire, then look at the rear end. Both cars are curvy in a mid-90s GM sort of way. The GTO and Sunfire share more design "inspiration" with a '95 Lumina than any current BMW.

This is the only Lumina the GTO/Monaro shares styling ques with (http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/604016)

So true, that is all you heard before the Monaro was imported and named GTO. Makes one wonder how the car would have been received by enthusists had it been named Pontiac Monaro.



Ya, I'll always wonder that... or even just another name all together.

Personally, I still don't see anywhere that the car strays from what a GTO really is short of a few things.

1) Not assembled in USA (though lots of cars have gone that way, including Camaro and Firebird, Monte Carlo and Impala, etc etc...)

2) It is it's own model (ie. not an upgrade to Tempest... would be like "Z28" coming back on it's own without a Camaro)

3) I can sort of see the hood scoop arguement since it was a trademark part of all previous GTO's... this has been rectified now though.... and you can even delete them, so people who don't like them can still get that "clean" look...

If I can say this without creating a firestorm...I think the problem that some folks have with the GTO is that by and large, it looks like any other Pontiac mid-size sedan from the past few years. That can be considered good or bad depending upon your point of view.

For example....you see what is obviously a Pontiac something coming up/down the road. After a second or two (or a few seconds or whatever), you see that styling que that tells you that it is a GTO.

Contrast that to something like a Vette or a Firebird or a Camaro or the new Mustang. The very instant you see it - you know what it is.

Again - not trying to say that is either good or bad, just my appraisal of the perception of some (most?) normal folk.

If I can say this without creating a firestorm...I think the problem that some folks have with the GTO is that by and large, it looks like any other Pontiac mid-size sedan from the past few years. That can be considered good or bad depending upon your point of view.

For example....you see what is obviously a Pontiac something coming up/down the road. After a second or two (or a few seconds or whatever), you see that styling que that tells you that it is a GTO.

Contrast that to something like a Vette or a Firebird or a Camaro or the new Mustang. The very instant you see it - you know what it is.

Again - not trying to say that is either good or bad, just my appraisal of the perception of some (most?) normal folk.

I think that is a 100% totally acurate assesment of the situation.

Geo Storm came out in 1990, so that would make the 4th gen look like the Geo Storm, not the storm be styled after the 4th gen camaro :)

The 4th Gen was an evolution of the third gen. The Storm was also styled after the 3rd Gen, so the Storm was styled to mimic a Camaro.

If I can say this without creating a firestorm...I think the problem that some folks have with the GTO is that by and large, it looks like any other Pontiac mid-size sedan from the past few years. That can be considered good or bad depending upon your point of view.

For example....you see what is obviously a Pontiac something coming up/down the road. After a second or two (or a few seconds or whatever), you see that styling que that tells you that it is a GTO.

Contrast that to something like a Vette or a Firebird or a Camaro or the new Mustang. The very instant you see it - you know what it is.

Again - not trying to say that is either good or bad, just my appraisal of the perception of some (most?) normal folk.Very true. And this is no different now than back in '64 when the GTO looked like a Grand Prix, Catalina, Bonneville, etc. They all looked the same but nobody bitched about it then. Now all of sudden its different?
The normal run of the mill GTO was nothing spectacular. For some reason, people think the Judge was how all of them looked like :rolleyes:

Very true. And this is no different now than back in '64 when the GTO looked like a Grand Prix, Catalina, Bonneville, etc. They all looked the same but nobody bitched about it then. Now all of sudden its different?
The normal run of the mill GTO was nothing spectacular. For some reason, people think the Judge was how all of them looked like :rolleyes:
I agree with that too. 40 years ago, times were different. I think the modern perception of the early GTOs is that they were rip-roaring, unique, muscular cars - which they were in some respects. However, when you go to a car show, you typically see GTOs, Chevelle SSs, etc - and gawk over the style, class, muscular look. You don't see near as many regular Tempests (or Chevelles, but more of those), thus our perception of the GTO is that it was, as stated, a very unique vehicle.

Doesn't mean the perception is right - but perception in the eyes of the perceiver is reality to that person.

Even I have said this before, and I am DEFINATELY NOT a fan of retro...

BUT....

I think the GTO name was one of the few that could have been brought back as a retro styled car, and not caused any controversy over it... quite the opposite, it would have avoided a lot of the controversy it is receiving today.

The car was GONE for 30 YEARS... that is much different than bringing back a retro Camaro (or Mustang) IMHO...

But, it's water under the bridge... and I don't think what they did was "wrong", but I could have more readily accepted a retro-GTO than I would a retro-Camaro.

Hmmmm..... maybe I should trade the Mustang in for a new GTO.








:D

Very true. And this is no different now than back in '64 when the GTO looked like a Grand Prix, Catalina, Bonneville, etc. They all looked the same but nobody bitched about it then. Now all of sudden its different?
The normal run of the mill GTO was nothing spectacular. For some reason, people think the Judge was how all of them looked like :rolleyes:


Back in 1964 Pontiac's lineup didn't suck like it does today. The GTO looks similar to a Sunfire or Grand Am, two cars that I will go out on a limb and say that they suck. The public's general perception of these two cars is not a very good one. So, if the GTO looks similar to these cars, then the general perception amongst ignorant car people is that the GTO sucks(which of course it doesn't, its actually a very nice sports car)

Well the argument about the looks of the trans am/formula is rediculous because those were being outsold by Corvettes. So what it comes down to is if its in your face it won't sell and if its plain it won't sell. So nobody is right.

Actually, I'll go out on a limb and say that the GTO has not been unsuccessful. If we consider the price it was selling for until mid to late summer, at which point it became known that the '05 GTO would have 400hp, I'd say it's selling pretty well. When I first looked at a GTO late last December, it was at a dealer that had a huge markup. Even in the spring, I think they were still trying to get list price, as opposed to the rest of GM's vehicles which had big discounts on top of huge rebates.

How many CLKs and 3/6 series coupes do Mercedes and BMW sell? I believe it's far fewer than the number of sedans they sell.

Granted, it has not been a roaring success. And if GM had an extra $billion + a couple of years, they could have come up with something more exciting. But I still think it's great to have the GTO, and if I didn't already have an '02 and a '98 Camaro, I'd be strongly considering buying one.

Exactly and for the record how many $30K+ Camaro SS's did they sell in 02? About 11K right? Your not going to sell an assload of cars in that market at that price range. The GTO is doing just fine. Its not getting the plug pulled and all you have to do is not buy one if you don't like it. Its only getting better from here.

Exactly and for the record how many $30K+ Camaro SS's did they sell in 02? About 11K right?

...as it was dying.

I don't know if u were agreeing or disagreeing but that was the most Camaro SS's sold in the run from 96-02.

...as it was dying.

It was dying 'cause it was being built in a plant that had a capacity for 100000+. The GTO is being built in a plant with a much smaller capacity, for which the low volumes are not a problem.