Chevrolet "GTO"

Check out the Chevrolet version of the GTO (http://www.chevroletarabia.com/content_data/LAAM/SA/en/GBPSA/chevrolet/models/lumina_coupe/lumina_overview.htm).

Looks like other countries not only get RWD V8 4-door sedans (Caprice) but also RWD V8 2-door coupes as well.

The Lumina SS would make a nice Monte Carlo SS here, but since the GTO is a "lame duck" and "underpowered" it probably wouldn't go over to well here. :rolleyes: I guess the poor sales of the GTO has also ruined any chances of the Holden Ute making it here under a Chevy badge.

the GTO kinda flopped in my opinion for 2 reasons:

1. everyone looked at it as an fbody replacement. it never was meant to be that. it was meant to be a nice BMW fighter for a good price.

2. Price. around here they were marked up as much as 7-10k by the local dealerships because they were "Limited Edition" or "Rare".

it can be argued till we are dead. but these are the reason it failed. personally if this is the reaction a superb car like the GTO is gonna get, i dont want to see anymore RWD v8 powered cars from gm at ALL. becuase they will only be deemed as an "fbody replacement". seems that nobody can think outside of the box anymore. sad really when you thinka bout it.

1. everyone looked at it as an fbody replacement. it never was meant to be that. it was meant to be a nice BMW fighter for a good price.

I have never seen any Gm literature that says the target market was a BMW fighter. The car did not have enough features to fight a BMW, along with lack of trunk space. Quite honestly, i do not think even GM knew what target market it was aiming for. This car was a 10 year old rebadge car and an afterthought, that was meant to take up space until a brand new platform was ready to come out.


2. Price. around here they were marked up as much as 7-10k by the local dealerships because they were "Limited Edition" or "Rare".

These cars are not selling well right now at thousands UNDER invoice. I saw one on e-bay brand new 13 miles for 24k buy it now price. The dealer I used to work at even with the $3500 incentives etc. can't move the cars. I think 24k is a great deal for a car like this. I keep hearing that markups might have been a major factor of low sales, but it is now clear that even without markups, and thousands under invoice, it is still hard to sell these cars....Only other thing that might be considered is the possible hold out for a 400 h.p. version coming out soon.

This car was not marketed to a specific group, and it had no real definition, and the looks are considered very lame by many people.

These cars are not selling well right now at thousands UNDER invoice. I saw one on e-bay brand new 13 miles for 24k buy it now price. The dealer I used to work at even with the $3500 incentives etc. can't move the cars. I think 24k is a great deal for a car like this. I keep hearing that markups might have been a major factor of low sales, but it is now clear that even without markups, and thousands under invoice, it is still hard to sell these cars....Only other thing that might be considered is the possible hold put for a 400 h.p. version coming out soon.

This car was not marketed to a specific group, and it had no real definition, and the looks are considered very lame by many people.

Alot of people are waiting for the LS2 and the scoops in the 05 model. Lets wait one more year before we go and say that these are hard cars to sell.

I know I would wait for more ponies and a better looking exterior..

Alot of people are waiting for the LS2 and the scoops in the 05 model. Lets wait one more year before we go and say that these are hard cars to sell.

I know I would wait for more ponies and a better looking exterior..

Beat me to it..

Considering the new GTo will most likely be around 2k more sticker than the 2004, and if Gm pulls the 3500 incentives, along with dealerships not pricing below invoice like now, you might be spending 6-7k more for a car with 50 more h.p. and hood scops. I am not in the market to by right now, but I would jump on a 2004 brand new for 24k than wait for a 2005 and pay a lot more. If you are waiting for a 2005, you will want to hope it does not sell so the incentives and below invoice pricing will continue. :)

Considering the new GTo will most likely be around 2k more sticker than the 2004,

'05 is only going to be $200 more.

Dealer markup and lack of aggressive styling hurt this car. Offer the the Woodward nose with the LS2 for $33K +$750 rebate (to keep dealers from marking up) and it would have sold better. GM needs to import some Holden HSV rims too.

Can you show me where you saw that??

Even so, does anyone know if Gm will keep the 3500 inccentives???

I agree totally about the styling and the front nose 100 percent.

BUT it has been months with incentives and below invoice pricing, and it still is not selling like it should. The markups were thought to be the reason for poor sales, but from what we see now I disagree, considerng sales should picked up much more when dealers slashed the sticker along with huge rebates.. The car just did not sell even at great pricing.

Can you show me where you saw that??

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320737&page=2&pp=15

BUT it has been months with incentives and below invoice pricing, and it still is not selling like it should. The markups were thought to be the reason for poor sales, but from what we see now I disagree, considerng sales should picked up much more when dealers slashed the sticker along with huge rebates.. The car just did not sell even at great pricing.

Selling an ugly piece of poo with $3500 in rebates, still makes it an ugly piece of poo.

The GTO is hardly a failure. Of the 18K cars max that could have been shipped over, no more could be made as the UAW, probably 12-15K cars shipped over. Next year is a short production year and still 12K cars are going to be built.
The owners of the cars are happy, Pontiac is happy because the car fills a void, Holden is happy because they are making so many. Only people that aren't happy are the ones that don't own one. All this crap about underpowerd is just that, crap.
The dealers around here don't seem to have a problem selling goats now. Earlier in the year, yes. But that's because the wanted 5-7K over sticker. Now I wonder why they didn't sell when they first came out....

The dealers around here don't seem to have a problem selling goats now

The sales figures and below invoice pricing says otherwise. Even with rebates, the sales figures showed little gains considering the great deals. The Pontiac dealer I used to work for can't give these cars away.. I think 25k is one hell of a deal for these cars..

Can you show me where you saw that??
"Says Lutz: "We want to make Pontiac an affordable, American BMW.""
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_11/b3824102.htm

"...at nearly $32,000 GM has the GTO competing with BMW's 3 series..."
http://www.forbes.com/2004/07/13/cx_mf_0713test_print.html

"It's more BMW than Firebird"
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=234


BUT it has been months with incentives and below invoice pricing, and it still is not selling like it should. The markups were thought to be the reason for poor sales, but from what we see now I disagree, considerng sales should picked up much more when dealers slashed the sticker along with huge rebates.. The car just did not sell even at great pricing.

Markups were the problem. GM diplomatically calls it a "distribution" mistake, meaning that they don't want to say that most dealers took up charging 'no-vasoline' markups (Car makers want to keep extremely good relations with dealers). But ask any GM rep off the record, and they'll acknowledge that extreme dealer markups as well as a lack of rebates were the problem. Once these were resolved, GTO started selling at projected levels:

1258 GTOs were sold in October, an annual rate of 15,096
2678 GTOs were sold in September, an annual rate of 32,136!
GM projected 18,000 GTOs in 2004 and 12,000 in 2005.
By no stretch of the imagination is GM having any problem selling GTOs now. Virturally all dealers are reporting greatly increased sales, and very few are reporting any problem moving the cars now.

There is no GTO selling for "below invoice" at the level you are talking about. The best deal going on GTOs at the moment is the $3500 rebate & loyalty discount offered in some areas of $1000.

With all these things thrown in, and with some dealer's discounts, you might get one for $27-28,000. But to say dealers are lining up to sell the cars at $24,000 plus rebates is inaccurate.

The sales figures and below invoice pricing says otherwise. Even with rebates, the sales figures showed little gains considering the great deals. The Pontiac dealer I used to work for can't give these cars away.. I think 25k is one hell of a deal for these cars..

In March there were 719 GTOs sold.
April there was 650.

Compare that amount with the totals I have above in the blue.

Your GTO allegations don't hold up.

This means you lose. :p

There is no GTO selling for "below invoice" at the level you are talking about. The best deal going on GTOs at the moment is the $3500 rebate & loyalty discount offered in some areas of $1000.


There is a lot of below invoice pricing going on. It is not across the board, but I can find several GTOs easily offered at 25k right now.. Best I have seen so far this week for a new 13 mile GTO is 24k. Many dealers are selling at or below invoice to get rid of them.

The sales figures and below invoice pricing says otherwise. Even with rebates, the sales figures showed little gains considering the great deals. The Pontiac dealer I used to work for can't give these cars away.. I think 25k is one hell of a deal for these cars..Really? When the incentives hit in Sept., it was the biggest month to date. Sold close to 4K cars if I remember right. That was almost half the year in one month for sales. Haven't seen October or November yet so I can't say anything. But cruising by all the local Pontiac dealers every weekend, there is always a new batch of GTO's and the ones from the previous week are gone. Like I said, they don't seem to have a problem selling around here.

There is a lot of below invoice pricing going on. It is not across the board, but I can find several GTOs easily offered at 25k right now.. Best I have seen so far this week for a new 13 mile GTO is 24k. Many dealers are selling at or below invoice to get rid of them.

Okay. Show me a dealer selling a GTO for $25,000 that doesn't include discounts, rebates, and incentives.

I have nothing to do this morning since I'm off. I'll call them & verify it.

September was the only month of real gains, and even with incentives in October, it dropped off again.

GM cut production by 30% for 2005. It seems even GM is pessimistic about 2005 sales. I am not sure if they wil offer huge incentives for the 05 though.. It sure will help much neededsales.

Okay. Show me a dealer selling a GTO for $25,000 that doesn't include discounts, rebates, and incentives.

Go smoke another one. Where did you come up wth that?? 25k including rebates and incentives.

September was the only month of real gains, and even with incentives in October, it dropped off again.

GM cut production by 30% for 2005. It seems even GM is pessimistic about 2005 sales. I am not sure if they wil offer huge incentives for the 05 though.. It sure will help much neededsales.

Lessee.

*New more desireable GTO coming out next month?
*Sales still at a 15,000 per year level, versus earliers 8300?
*GM's total sales drop of 5% in October after a astronomical 20% gain in September?
*Pontiac's overall sales drop from 37,920 in September to 30,647 in October?

Yet it's GTO that's the problem??

Uh... OK. :)

Go smoke another one. Where did you come up wth that?? 25k including rebates and incentives.

My point exactly. GTOs are NOT selling under invoice at the levels you are saying.

Not all areas get the same rebates & incentives. The incentives on a RWD GTO in Bangor Maine this time of year are not going to be the same as around Florida, as well as the fact that a small Pontiac dealer in Dustbowl Texas isn't going to have the same discount as a massive dealer in Los Angeles.

Again, the best you'll price you'll see on a GTO with rebates & incentives is in the $27-28,000 range, which I said in the 1st place. Maybe $26K, if you have a dealer moving a ton of the cars.

Sales still at a 15,000 per year level, versus earliers 8300?
*GM's total sales drop of 5% in October after a astronomical 20% gain in September

I am using your figures.

GM sold 1420 less GTO in October than September. That is a drop of over 50% in one month with the incentives and rebates..If GM could keep the sales of the GTO at September levels, then yes, the rebates would be working, but looking at the bigger picture, it was just a spike, and dropped signifigantly again even while the rebates continued. And please stop taking one months sales andusing that as a gauge of yearly sales :lol:
And we are not talking about total GM sales here. Why you brought that up I do not know :)

15k is not going to be the yearly sales for the GTO..Unless December sells several thousand of them.

Again, the best you'll price you'll see on a GTO with rebates & incentives is in the $27-28,000 range, which I said in the 1st place. Maybe $26K, if you have a dealer moving a ton of the cars

Can you not read?? I have already said there are GTos selling even for 24k brand new.. Including the 3500 rebate and financing with GM at 2.9%. Are you actually claiming there are not GTOs selling for less than 27k? :lol:

The cut in production is a result of a shortened model year. Plant is going to stop making '05's in May and start the conversion for the '06. That is so they can come over in September like the rest of the country's models. They are loosing a couple months of production, hence less cars made.

As for October, if the whole Pontiac line is down, you can't single out the GTO. Incentives have been ongoing for all Pontiacs and all of them went down. Hardly an indication of GTO sales in general.

Just because your local dealer can't sell GTO's doesn't mean they aren't selling elsewhere.

There are a few ways to get below $27K. More dealer $500 rebates. I think you are allowed a max of two? I don't know as I only got one. GMS pricing but that can't be for everybody. And if you read the fine print on most of the low ball prices, not many will qualify.

As for October, if the whole Pontiac line is down, you can't single out the GTO. Incentives have been ongoing for all Pontiacs and all of them went down. Hardly an indication of GTO sales in general

Neither can you claim success on a one month spike in sales in September.. Sheesh. Flat out what the drop proves is even wth incentives, it will not guarantee sales.

30% production cut when only a couple of months less of production.. The percentages show a larger cut per production time.. GM even admits they are pessimistic about 2005 sales...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=4507681237&rd=1

Here was a great deal.. Best i have seen this week.

Neither can you claim success on a one month spike in sales in September.. Sheesh. Flat out what the drop proves is even wth incentives, it will not guarantee sales.

30% production cut when only a couple of months less of production.. The percentages show a larger cut per production time.. GM even admits they are pessimistic about 2005 sales...You said that the incentives didn't help. September was the first month of the incentives and more were sold in that month than any previous month. It was the reason I bought an '04 instead of waiting for an '05, which I was going to do even before they started coming over here. So the incentives did help sell cars.

And car sales in general are down, hence GTO sales are probably down also...Sheesh

Look, we are both trying to prove a point based on one month of sales while rebates were used (you September, me October). GM sales might have been down 5 percent in October, but GTO sales were down over 55 percent. Trying to justify overall sales being slower is not the reality of a 55 percent difference in GTO sales. Give that point a rest already. It makes no sense.

A one month sales increase in September proves that rebates work as much as a huge one month decline in sales in October proves they do not work. We are both debating this on data that can go either way. I tend to believe that if rebates DID work, the October sales would not have declined in the huge percentiles as seen, and that even with huge rebates, it could not even sustain those sales.

Any company seeing those numbers drop like they did in October would be pretty damn concerned. :lol:

It is like some of you here use tunnel vision to justify the GTO.

I am using your figures.

GM sold 1420 less GTO in October than September. That is a drop of over 50% in one month with the incentives and rebates..If GM could keep the sales of the GTO at September levels, then yes, the rebates would be working, but looking at the bigger picture, it was just a spike, and dropped signifigantly again even while the rebates continued. And please stop taking one months sales andusing that as a gauge of yearly sales :lol:
And we are not talking about total GM sales here. Why you brought that up I do not know :)

15k is not going to be the yearly sales for the GTO..Unless December sells several thousand of them.

"Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives." (Detroit News, May 24, 2004)

"Central to this issue is that Pontiac made a commitment to it’s dealers to deliver at least one GTO to all dealers up front. What this means is that many cars from the initial runs were sent to dealers in places like Caribou, Maine and Bismark, ND, areas traditionally not RWD muscle car hot spots. These dealers, in many cases are only getting one GTO during the entire 2004 model year, so some have marked their car up way above MSRP, which only makes the car sit on lot’s longer. Dealer markup pricing as a whole also has negatively affected GTO sales." (New Age GTO.com)

You seem to be changing the goalposts here. On one hand, you claim that dealer markups had nothing to do with GTO's dismal sales. Your position was just blown out of the water, so now you want to include those sales months when GTO's were suffering because of dealer markups to justify your idea.

So, lets look at GTO's sales history this year, both before and after incentives were added, shall we:

Jan: 476 (no incentives and dealer markups up to $10,000)
Feb: 606 (ditto)
Mar: 719 (ditto)
Apr: 650 (ditto)
May: 638 (ditto)
Jun: 598 (ditto)
Jul: 897 (GTO finally gets 0.9-2.9% financing)
Aug: 967 (Financing through GMAC gets now gets you a $2000 rebate. Also begins intrest free 60 month financing and up to $5,000 as part of a 72 hour sale)
Sep : 2678
Oct: 1258

BTW: Pontiac GTO currently has 2.9% financing for 60 months + $3500 back from GMAC, or $3500 incentive across the country. Add in a $1000 loyalty rebate, and that makes the GTO a $27,999 car. Invoice price is $29,410... before rebates.

Now again, if you can show me a dealer selling a GTO below invoice (which means, before rebates) or a dealer I can call that is selling a GTO at $25,000 advertised, let me know & I will call them and verify it.

Johnsocal knows why. :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=4507681237&rd=1

Here was a great deal.. Best i have seen this week.

Lawrence, Kansas, huh?

It's 30 degress and light snow expected in today's forecast. Plus they just had a snow front go through... And it's not even the begining of winter yet.

Of course he's motivated to cut the price of a new RWD car he has. If he doesn't sell it now, he's stuck with it for another 4-5 months. :lol:

That 55% you keep quoting is based off the best month, September. But in reality, October was still better than any other month excluding September.

Obviously the incentives are still working. But you are basing the big drop off a the biggest gain. Kind of skewed logic...

You seem to be changing the goalposts here. On one hand, you claim that dealer markups had nothing to do with GTO's dismal sales. Your position was just blown out of the water, so now you want to include those sales months when GTO's were suffering because of dealer markups to justify your idea.

LOL blown out of the water?? :lol: Are you smoking crack? Markups were not THE reason for dismal sales.. Everyone knows the first 5 months the dealers could not even have he cars shipped to them. Once the dealers actually got the damn cars, the price gouging stopped....That is what I call tunnel vision. Everyone acts as if the price gouging lasted until September :lol:

Now even with huge rebates, the GTO cannot sustain big sales numbers. Like mentioned in my other post, a one month spike proves nothing. You base your whole arguement over one month with rebates...even with 3500 in rebates, this car did not fly off the lots.
ntiac GTO currently has 2.9% financing for 60 months + $3500 back from GMAC, or $3500 incentive across the country. Add in a $1000 loyalty rebate, and that makes the GTO a $27,999 car. Invoice price is $29,410... before rebates.

Now again, if you can show me a dealer selling a GTO below invoice (which means, before rebates) or a dealer I can call that is selling a GTO at $25,000 advertised, let me know & I will call them and verify it.

This post makes absolutely no sense. Your numbers are wacked..

There is a link I posted that shows a GTO which SOLD for 24,150. The price includes 3500 rebate and 2.9 percent financing.NO OTHER INCENTIVES than the 3500. So lets add the 3500 to the 24150 shall we. That total comes to 27,650..well under invoice of 29k. Feel free to "verify" that GTO.. Their phone number is listed.

Obviously the incentives are still working. But you are basing the big drop off a the biggest gain. Kind of skewed logic

That was not the point I was showing. I was making a point of the rebates not being able to sustain big GTO sales. I never said October was not the second highest. That is obvious. What is also obvious is that even with HUGE rebates, the GTO could not sustain great numbers while practically giving the car away. I wish we had a few more months to see if the sales would pick back up liek Septembers numbers.. We only have December to speculate on.

Mark ups were a big problem for sales. Even now, dealers still don't let people take GTO's for test drives. Its a HALO car and buyer's don't want any miles on the car???? What a bunch of crap. I have heard, and know of GTO owners, that has had this happen. As recently as this past week.

A lot of dealers have a weird mentality when it comes to the GTO.

That was not the point I was showing. I was making a point of the rebates not being able to sustain big GTO sales. I never said October was not the second highest. That is obvious. What is also obvious is that even with HUGE rebates, the GTO could not sustain great numbers while practically giving the car away. I wish we had a few more months to see if the sales would pick back up liek Septembers numbers.. We only have December to speculate on.I'm sure you won't see another month like September as I don't think there that many left.

Problem is also the '05. News of what the '05 was coming with was "leaked" in September. Along with speculation of the price increase of around $500. Many people decided to wait. Even with the incentives. I see this a lot on the various GTO forums. They justify the wait for the more power, better brakes, dual outlets, and hood. Some took the incentives, like me. But a lot of people are just playing a waiting game. Maybe GM shot themselves in the foot when they leaked the info about the '05?

Mark ups were a big problem for sales. Even now, dealers still don't let people take GTO's for test drives. Its a HALO car and buyer's don't want any miles on the car???? What a bunch of crap. I have heard, and know of GTO owners, that has had this happen. As recently as this past week.

A lot of dealers have a weird mentality when it comes to the GTO.


You nailed it there. I visited the dealership recently where I used to wrk as a Tech there for over 7 years, and asked a former co-worker if he drove a new GTo yet. he laughed and said no one is allowed to drive a GTO period. I was like WTF are you talking about? The concensus was that GTO buyers do not want any mileage on the car, and it was almost impossible to sell one above invoice if it had a couple hundred miles on them. They had 3 of them there right now and they are vey hard to sell.


Man I would take 3500 in incentives easily over 50 hp and a hood. I keep hearing conflicting reports of the MSRP on the 05's. It is 500 bucks?? For 4k I would buy a 2004 in a heartbeat. I wish I was ready to buy now, cause for 24-25k you can pick these cars up. That is one hell of a deal.

LOL blown out of the water?? :lol: Are you smoking crack? Markups were not THE reason for dismal sales.. Everyone knows the first 5 months the dealers could not even have he cars shipped to them. Once the dealers actually got the damn cars, the price gouging stopped....That is what I call tunnel vision. Everyone acts as if the price gouging lasted until September :lol:

Now even with huge rebates, the GTO cannot sustain big sales numbers. Like mentioned in my other post, a one month spike proves nothing. You base your whole arguement over one month with rebates...even with 3500 in rebates, this car did not fly off the lots.


This post makes absolutely no sense. Your numbers are wacked..

There is a link I posted that shows a GTO which SOLD for 24,150. The price includes 3500 rebate and 2.9 percent financing.NO OTHER INCENTIVES than the 3500. So lets add the 3500 to the 24150 shall we. That total comes to 27,650..well under invoice of 29k. Feel free to "verify" that GTO.. Their phone number is listed.

My numbers are whacked huh? Perhaps you should actually check out Pontiac or GM's info on prices & rebates yourself? Just a suggestion that might help.

The link you posted has a Pontiac dealer selling a RWD car in pickup truck country after being hit with a snow front before winter sets in. Without rebates, the car is selling for $1,750 below invoice. A fair discount for the circumstances, if you want to wire him $1000 and pay the whole amount within 7 days or loose your grand. Not a newspaper or advertized price, but I'll give you half a point here. :)

So mark-ups aren't the reason for dismal sales? I really think I am now talking to a rock. Are you prepared to tell me that people should have paid the $5-10,000 mark-ups without a question or whimper? Are you actually saying it didn't make a difference??

Even though Pontiac, GM, and any magazine on the subject states the dealer price as a huge factor in it's dismal sales, even though GM's own sales figures demonstrate GTO's sales have shot up once rebates and incentives were added, and despite the fact that these 2004 GTO sales have shot up despite the fact that everyone who's intrested and then some knows a new more aggresive GTO is only about a few weeks away from delivery, you still are trying to sell the notion that price markups and lack of incentives had no bearing on GTO sales. Hate to tell you this, but no one's buying that (excxuse the pun).

GTOs were slated to sell 18,000 cars per year (the absolute most Holden can produce). That's an average of just 1500 cars per month. Anything approaching or surpassing that amount qualifies as "flying off the lots". GTOs have been flying off the lots the past 2 months. GTO also had incentives the past 2 months, and most dealer gouging stopped about 3 months ago. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

As for dealers not having the cars, GM had a backup in supply of GTOs as early as March. By April it was starting to reach critical levels.


You say I'm on crack? Are you even actually taking the time to look up the points youre trying to make before you post it, or are you just winging it?? :lol:

I am glad that you acknowledge one area that killed off alot of GTO sales: Dealers practices of not allowing test drives or demanding credit checks or signing intention to buy forms before any test drives. It turned me off... till the 2005s come out & the 2004s drop. :D

Man I would take 3500 in incentives easily over 50 hp and a hood. I keep hearing conflicting reports of the MSRP on the 05's. It is 500 bucks?? For 4k I would buy a 2004 in a heartbeat. I wish I was ready to buy now, cause for 24-25k you can pick these cars up. That is one hell of a deal.That's why I decided to buy an '04. The car is going to be 6K+ more because they won't be discounting the '05's for quite awhile. And to get 400HP out of an LS1 is pretty easy and not that cheap. I'm planning on 400rwhp/tq which is a little more involved but nothing too extreme. I might do a brake upgrade if it really becomes apparent I need to. I did the C5 front pad swap and that alone helped a lot. Unbelieveable how little pad is on the GTO with the same backing.
If anybody can get them for below $27K, they should be jumping at the chance. You'd be hard pressed to find another car of equal value :)

You say I'm on crack? Are you even actually taking the time to look up the points youre trying to make before you post it, or are you just winging it

:lol: yeah you are really showing me :rolleyes:

Well I am glad we cleared up at least the under invoice pricing. There are plenty of cars out there under invoice right now. Not just that one car.. Plenty of them. Damn good deals. At least you admit to one of your flawed sense of logic.



GTOs were slated to sell 18,000 cars per year (the absolute most Holden can produce). That's an average of just 1500 cars per month. Anything approaching or surpassing that amount qualifies as "flying off the lots

This is where your bitchfest is missing the point. 18,000 cars. I never said sales did not increase at all with incentives, but looking at the data while the rebates started, other than 1 month in September, the sales are not enough to reach the target market.. Without price gouging, and without actual drastic price reductions, GM could still not make make near 18k in sales.That is my point.. Everyone blames price gouging for the lack of 18k sales, but the reality was the sticker was too high to begin with. not dealer goiging.

Price gouging did not keep 18k sales from happening... Price gouging was not a factor after the first 6 months...18k in sales would not of happened even at regular prices and no gouging, and have a very hard time reaching the numbers even with a full year of $3500 in rebates( or lowered sticker).

What I do want to know is if the 05's sales suck, will they offer a 3500 rebate on them.. GM has shot themselves in the foot it seems, because now everyone expects rebates.. While big rebates cleared out inventory, people are now expecting these rebates as the norm now..

Everyone seems to keep quoting the 18K sales estimate. Problem is, that was tops for the whole year even before they were being built. That number dropped to 16K right away before they even got over here. Many problems with logistics. Transport delays which turned out to be extremely late arrivals. So this 18K was never going to materialize from the get go.
That coupled with the price gouging were two very bad strikes against the car from the beginning.

And the sticker price itself being too high killed the sales. More so than the price gouging itself. Everyone blames the dealers gouging, when the sticker should have been at the rebate level to begin with. Even with rebates as they are now, they did not keep raising sales for more than just one month.

Lets sum this mess up?

I will admit price gouging had a little impact at first with sales...Along with lack of availibility to dealers.. When the deliveries picked up, the gougng stopped, but sales still did not pick up greatly..eapecially anywhere near targeted goals..due to a high sticker price, lack of styling etc. Peopel here love to spout prce gouging as the main reason for low sales for the year. This is flat out not the case at all. I had some impact, but not a huge impact like suggested by some.

GM launches incredible incentives starting with a couple 2k.... Sales picked up a little, but not too much.. Still much lower than estimated///Then a BIG 3500 in incentives. It worked great one month and then droped a lot the next month..

Price gouging only played a small part in sales, or lack there of..The car was just not well received.

Disclaimer: This is my own personal experience in my hometown. I don't know what transpired in LA or Atlanta or Detroit, only in my own area.
I visited my local Pontiac dealer in November upon hearing that the GTO's were nearing local delivery. No cars. Revisited in December. No cars. Revisited in January. One car. Locked up in showroom with signs that read "DO NOT TOUCH!" and "+$5,000 market adjustment". Asked if I could sit in the car. Answer: "Are you going to buy it?" "Not today." "Then, no, you can't touch it." Went next door to the BMW store and ordered a new 3-series after driving several new, window-sticker-in-the-$40,000-range cars. Revisited in March, right before delivery of my 3-series. "Can I touch it now?" "Are you going to buy it?" "Not today." "No, don't touch." Revisited in May. 4 GTOs on showroom floor. 12 more in lot. Doors are unlocked, windows down. Sat in car. Found headroom extremely lacking. Bumped head on roof getting out. Salesman watched but didn't say a word. Revisited in August after hearing of $2,000 incentive. Met at door, "Would you like to drive a new GTO today? Let's go for a test drive. We're really dealing on these babies..." Went back in September when incentives increased. Talked trade deal on 3er. They offered $7,000 off GTO without even trying and trade value equal to wholesale price of 2005 3er. Drove away on September 20 in new GTO.

I think if they had made the cars available in September (instead of January-dead of winter) and then the dealers would have treated folks with courtesy instead of contempt (start at MSRP and deal a bit) they would have sold 3,000 cars the first month and probably sold out by August. I asked my salesman how many GTO's they had sold as of September 20. He said 5. I asked how many GTO's they had sold since incentives began in August. He said 4. That means they sold ONE GTO from January till August!

Selling an ugly piece of poo with $3500 in rebates, still makes it an ugly piece of poo.
Bingo. Whenever I see one, I still think "juiced Grand Am"

I like mine.

The first year any model comes up, its going to be marked up big time.
WHen the eclipse came out with its modern body style, the dealer thought it absurd to NOT charge a $7000 premium over MSRP, even though I explained that being in central Ca, I could go in nearly any direction and find another dealer...he didn't budge.

The cost/price is fair, I think. It's just not worth it though, compared to other sedans, and thats the bottom line.

I like mine.
That's all that matters.
No one liked my Mustang, especially since it was a Ford, but I liked mine.





Alternative reply:


Yeah, and I'm sure someone somewhere likes this:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:eM8eRZCKfRgJ:http://www.ebaumsworld.com/uglyneon2.jpg

:p

pictures of Chevrolet Lumina SS the "Chevy GTO" (http://neon.atsweb.net/lumina-ss/)
I'm not going to bother seeing if anyone else posted these, but these are large pictures of the car.

pictures of Chevrolet Lumina SS the "Chevy GTO" (http://neon.atsweb.net/lumina-ss/)
I'm not going to bother seeing if anyone else posted these, but these are large pictures of the car.

Those are pics. of the older 4-door model. The Lumina SS coupe is new and is nothing more than a rebadge of the Monaro/GTO

Now again, if you can show me a dealer selling a GTO below invoice (which means, before rebates) or a dealer I can call that is selling a GTO at $25,000 advertised, let me know & I will call them and verify it.

Johnsocal knows why. :)

Here's one , the dealer is 5 minutes from my house . They have a 2004 auto , Cosmos purple / purple leather , brand new , not a demo , 24 miles on odo . Advertised price on windsheild is $25,125 with a great big WOW right by it .

errr...... forgot the # .

Don Medow Pontiac
574-232-1111

I think Guy is hoping you guys can show him a 25K in cali, so that he can be there in a jiffy. cali rules will not allow an out-of-state vehicle with less than 7500miles to be brought and registered into this state unless you have owned and registered that vehicle for at least 6 months.

Price gouging only played a small part in sales, or lack there of..The car was just not well received.
So you think that a $7-$10K difference in the price of a car play just a "small part" in how much that vehicle sells? :confused: :blah:

Everyone blames price gouging for the lack of 18k sales, but the reality was the sticker was too high to begin with.[/b] not dealer goiging.

Price gouging did not keep 18k sales from happening... Price gouging was not a factor after the first 6 months...18k in sales would not of happened even at regular prices and no gouging, and have a very hard time reaching the numbers even with a full year of $3500 in rebates( or lowered sticker).

What I do want to know is if the 05's sales suck, will they offer a 3500 rebate on them.. GM has shot themselves in the foot it seems, because now everyone expects rebates.. While big rebates cleared out inventory, people are now expecting these rebates as the norm now..


Price gouging has effects LONG after they're not even going on. Once the Pontiac dealers got the rep that they were screwing the customers over the GTO, it takes a few months for that to wear off.

As to the correct sticker price for the GTO, we can't say since the gouging screwed up any realistic measure of what would "sell." My hunch is that if the pricing had been consistent from the start, the GTO would have made the full 18K sales in a year going for $31K sticker WITH low financing and a modest $1000-1500 incentive in the last few months. Finally ending with dealer discounts on top of that.

Now we're going to get to see a better test with the '05. BUT it appears they're cutting the import figure by 30%, so now that's only 12000 cars. They'll sell every one GUARANTEED. The dealers now KNOW what they can reasonably expect to squeeze out of people. They'll pace themselves on the pricing to get all 12K sold at maximum dollars. And we're NOT going to be seeing the steals at the end of the year on the '05 like the '04.

Take a look at the link below, this car has the GTO Beat hands down. Who cares what sales the GTO has. Who cares what it looks like when you have cars like this to look at. GTO is nothing more than a Grand Am with a V8 and rwd. Welcome to the real world when you own one of these :bow:

What is a GTO? (http://home.comcast.net/~tnicolaisen/Corvette3.JPG)

Take a look at the link below, this car has the GTO Beat hands down. Who cares what sales the GTO has. Who cares what it looks like when you have cars like this to look at. GTO is nothing more than a Grand Am with a V8 and rwd. Welcome to the real world when you own one of these :bow:

What is a GTO? (http://home.comcast.net/~tnicolaisen/Corvette3.JPG)


OK, Z06's cost Twenty Thousand Dollars More than a GTO...

And C5's look like Ford Probes and Mazda RX-7's... :rolleyes:

:tired: Grand Am with RWD :tired:

Same thing over and over... sheeeeeeeeeeez. :mad:

15 posts since 1998, and you make numner 16 this????

One other thing I don't get is people saying how expensive the car is. Its not that much more than a Firehawk or SS or CETA back in '02. And if the F-Body would have continued to have been built would be more expensive than the GTO. For the money, the goat is a much better value than the F-Body ever was.
I just told get how its OK for one car to be priced that high another is way too expensive. Especially when the latter is a better car?

Take a look at the link below, this car has the GTO Beat hands down. Who cares what sales the GTO has. Who cares what it looks like when you have cars like this to look at. GTO is nothing more than a Grand Am with a V8 and rwd. Welcome to the real world when you own one of these :bow:

What is a GTO? (http://home.comcast.net/~tnicolaisen/Corvette3.JPG)Then you are blind. Park a GTO next to a Grand Am and they are nothing alike. You are showing how ignorant you really are :rolleyes:

Grand Am (http://www.pontiac.com/grandam/images/enlarge_image101.jpg)

GTO (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/bg_image20.jpg)

Yea ok, I am sorry, they changed a couple lines on the car :eek:


OK, Z06's cost Twenty Thousand Dollars More than a GTO... Buy a used 02-03 Z06 with under 10k for 32-34k, so sorry, not 20k more :cry:

15 posts since 1998, and you make numner 16 this????

I will dedicate #20 to you

Oh and

And C5's look like Ford Probes and Mazda RX-7's...
And a 4th Gen is a Geo Storm. Either way, dont get made because you cant afford one. :eek: ;)

Grand Am (http://www.pontiac.com/grandam/images/enlarge_image101.jpg)

GTO (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/bg_image20.jpg)

Yea ok, I am sorry, they changed a couple lines on the car :eek:
Again, if you can't see the difference, then you are blind. A couple of lines like every line on the car :eek:

Again, if you can't see the difference, then you are blind. A couple of lines like every line on the car :eek:

LOL, keep telling yourself that. :D

Oh wait, you are right, strip off the Grand Am side panel and you have a GTO

So does that make the GTO a stripped Grand Am?

LOL, keep telling yourself that. :D

Oh wait, you are right, strip off the Grand Am side panel and you have a GTO

So does that make the GTO a stripped Grand Am?Keep trolling blind man....

Keep trolling blind man....


LOL, oh come on. :D

Just admit that you drive a car with grand am lines and everything will be all better.

Seriously, what's with the troll? Can't we get a mod in here to ban this retard or what? "Oh hay guys my corvette is better than every car i am mr cool lawls i am an internet cool guy"

Yeah, color me impressed.

People like you kill me , your arrogance is pretty damn funny . Your on the wrong board preching status about your Z06 , your car is not special and neither is your cobra ....mmmmmmK :) . Theres more than a few people with god for bid , lesser cars that will hand you and your ordinary modded Z06 your ass ....myself included ;)

Sorry man , no nut huggers for ya here .....you can move on now :p

Well, the dealers in my area are still crack heads when it comes to the GTO...went to one two days ago that has 40 plus in stock and the guys keep telling me they sell them and yet all you have to do is look at the cars, the stickers (nice and yellow now), and watch the lot for a few weeks and you see they are not moving jack.

I once again thought maybe I will buy one (I still am just not in love with the looks...sorry) and I knew about the rebates etc., I got to talking with them and they hit me with sticker minus 3500 bucks..."hey man, is that a deal or what" was how they acted...I asked them so all you are going to give me is the rebate? They kind of acted sorta "caught" and the manager guy said we don't deal that much on them because they are limited and "we sell them."

I still think the dealers and the price on its own hurt the car...that and the fact we all know the 05 is going to have more hp and the 07 will be a new set up that will probably kill the current one (if the car survives).

JMHO on the matter.

I do feel for the owners of them, people keep going back to the looks and I guess I would get tired of hearing it all the time also if I owned on or liked the way they look...but on the other hand I don't really like the rear of the car. I try to stay away from that aspect. I also am not a fan of metallic black...I would want a regular black myself...ah well.

Get a mod in here to ban me? There is all of about 6 people here that have been on this board longer than me. I was here before july 1998. The board crashed at some point and I lost my orginal screen name.

On the other hand we have people that take everything to seriously

As far as someones car being faster, congradulations to them. I have had my share of quick cars, but I really dont care who is faster, just messing around with some people, so lighten up. Sheesh.
2003 Z06
2004 Cobra
2002 Camaro with LS6
95 T/A with Procharger
95 Cobra 342 with Novi 2000
Same 95 Cobra with built 408
93 GT Mustang with T4 Turbo 2.3 60' 11.7@126 hitting the rev limiter 100' before the end with a bad stall converter
Same 93 with turbo removed and a 200 hit of the spray 10.8@128 on ET Streets
Built a 90 LX SSO/True street car back at start of the NMRA/Fun Ford 331 with T76 turbo 9.4@144 car
Built a 86 Coupe SSO/True Street car 28x10.5 car, stock suspension, 331 T100 Turbo 8.0@174

I Love the way that Lumina has barely been mentioned since the first page, first post of this thread. The rest has been tooth and nail fighting over the GTO.


To me that proves it a failure. Great car, great step up for pontiac, but its a piss poor excuse for a halo. All you defenders can't shake people posting the grand am comparisons because they are true. Clearly they are different cars, but the GTO utterly fails to excite me about pontiac anymore than any other model.

Anyone noticed the sunroof option on the Chevy GTO ??

Grand Am (http://www.pontiac.com/grandam/images/enlarge_image101.jpg)

GTO (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/bg_image20.jpg)

Yea ok, I am sorry, they changed a couple lines on the car :eek:

The GTO looks like a Pontiac. Hmmm... :think: Boy, what a crazy, crazy thing.

BMW 7-series shares styling cues with the BMW 5-series... and 3-Series... and 6-Series (which actually looks alot like a GTO as well)


Buy a used 02-03 Z06 with under 10k for 32-34k, so sorry, not 20k more :cry:

I don't want a used car... And I want a back seat. Thanks.



I will dedicate #20 to you

:Twirls finger in air: OK, Uh... I didicate #7809 or whatever it is to you. :cheers:


Oh and


And a 4th Gen is a Geo Storm.

See my post in the other thread that the Camaro looks like a Storm. Point is just about ANY car can be said to look somewhat like another.


Either way, dont get made because you cant afford one. :eek: ;)


OK, your previous point... in this very same reply was that you can get a used Z06 for a similar price to a new GTO, and now you are telligng me I can't afford it?!?! :confused: :lol: :rolleyes:

Anyone noticed the sunroof option on the Chevy GTO ??

Ya, there are at least a few options for Monaro that are not offered on GTO... the sunroof, the electronic temperature control off the top of my head.

The GTO looks like a Pontiac. Hmmm... :think: Boy, what a crazy, crazy thing.

...Kinda crazy when you consider the "new" GTO looked like a bloated Sunfire coupe. A newly launched $33K performance car shouldn't share it's styling with a ancient, soon-to-disappear economy car that frequently sells for +/- $10K...


BMW 7-series shares styling cues with the BMW 5-series... and 3-Series... and 6-Series (which actually looks alot like a GTO as well)


The 6-series doesn't look anything like a GTO.

While the GTO is dated and bland, the 6-series is pretty much ugly. The GTO looks like an enlarged Sunfire with a '96 Sebring's front clip. The 6-series seems to be a combination of a Z4-style front end, with a bloated middle section from a next-generation 3-series and a nasty rear end grafted on from the 7-series.

Let's put it another way...

The GTO would have looked great if it had premiered 5 to 10 years ago. The 6-series is just plain ugly, perhaps the least attractive post-Bangle BMW.

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/07/bmw645ci04_02.jpg

http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showcar.cgi?type=show&pic=/2004/04_00031_1

_____


http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/07/bmw645ci04_10.jpg

http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showcar.cgi?type=show&pic=/2004/04_00031_2


They sure have a lot of similarities to me.... the front layout, the rear layout, but especially the profile.

the reason i think the GTO failed is because GM has Ruined a great american classic. thats the most ugly thing they have ever built it looks nothing like a GTO! at least they did 2 things right.....Rear wheel drive and a V8. other than that it sucks.

thats the most ugly thing they have ever built

So, in your opinion, Aztek is a better looking vehicle? :lol:

So, in your opinion, Aztek is a better looking vehicle? :lol:I guess so. Or maybe a Nova/GTO of 73-74 looked like a "real" GTO :rolleyes:

Grand Am (http://www.pontiac.com/grandam/images/enlarge_image101.jpg)

GTO (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/bg_image20.jpg)

Yea ok, I am sorry, they changed a couple lines on the car :eek:

ROTFLMAO!!!

I love the comparison shots.. That was one of the funniest comparison pics I have seen posted :lol: I always said the GTO looks like a mid 1990's Pontiac.. :)

ok rob...dont get mad at me because you bought a 40 thousand dollor grand prix. :D

ok rob...dont get mad at me because you bought a 40 thousand dollor grand prix. :D

MSRP: $33,xxx.

Rebate: $3500.
GMCard Bonus money: $500

Now $29,xxx.

Then work a deal with the dealer, and you are easily in the $27,xxx... possibly $26,xxx.

Hardly "$40,000". :blah:

How many Camaro SS's or Trans Am WS-6's were available for that price?!?!

ok rob...dont get mad at me because you bought a 40 thousand dollor grand prix. :DHardly. I bought my GTO for only a couple thousand more than my 96 WS6. Not too shabby for 8 years difference :D

Those are pics. of the older 4-door model. The Lumina SS coupe is new and is nothing more than a rebadge of the Monaro/GTO
Actually that's not correct either. While those pics are of the 4-door model available last year, the previous 2-door Lumina SS was available in the middle east last as a 2002 model. And yes it was also a rebadged Monaro, but with left-hand drive.

The Chevy Lumina SS or Chevy GTO as you called it, is NOT a new idea. Folks around here have been wondering why it wasn't exported a long time ago. :D

Anyone think that if GM brought over the Chevy version, and badged it as Chevelle SS, would people have a different reaction to the car?

Anyone think that if GM brought over the Chevy version, and badged it as Chevelle SS, would people have a different reaction to the car?

I can't see how... seems to me like they would make all the same GTO mistakes again. Maybe if they:

left it as the lumina which doesent have as much loyalty behind it.
gave it a sub 30k msrp
did some advertising
managed to avoid the looks like a "insert GM product"

then maybe, but those are several big ifs.

The GTO looks like a Pontiac. Hmmm... :think: Boy, what a crazy, crazy thing.

BMW 7-series shares styling cues with the BMW 5-series... and 3-Series... and 6-Series (which actually looks alot like a GTO as well)



I don't want a used car... And I want a back seat. Thanks.




:Twirls finger in air: OK, Uh... I didicate #7809 or whatever it is to you. :cheers:



See my post in the other thread that the Camaro looks like a Storm. Point is just about ANY car can be said to look somewhat like another.




OK, your previous point... in this very same reply was that you can get a used Z06 for a similar price to a new GTO, and now you are telligng me I can't afford it?!?! :confused: :lol: :rolleyes:


Hey Sherlock, then later in the same thread, I said it was all a joke. Dont be upset with me because you have to deffend the car you decided to buy. At least all I have to deal with is uptight, freaks that own Vettes :D

The GTO is a decent car, just sucks they didnt do a better job with it or do it sooner. Should have came out in 02' for a phase in to capture Camaro buyers.

I mean come on Gas tank in the trunk?
The main radio controlls are on the right side instead of the left side like they should be
Couldnt redesign the exhaust to have a nice dual setup after they realized they had to put the gas tank in the trunk?
There are a few other points that show this was just a car they moved the steering wheel from the right side to the left side, rebadged it and put it out for sale. Since you own one, I am sure you are aware of them.

Hey Sherlock, then later in the same thread, I said it was all a joke. Dont be upset with me because you have to deffend the car you decided to buy. At least all I have to deal with is uptight, freaks that own Vettes :D

The GTO is a decent car, just sucks they didnt do a better job with it or do it sooner. Should have came out in 02' for a phase in to capture Camaro buyers.

I mean come on Gas tank in the trunk?
The main radio controlls are on the right side instead of the left side like they should be
Couldnt redesign the exhaust to have a nice dual setup after they realized they had to put the gas tank in the trunk?
There are a few other points that show this was just a car they moved the steering wheel from the right side to the left side, rebadged it and put it out for sale. Since you own one, I am sure you are aware of them.

The GTO wasnt brought here to satisfy any Camaro or Firebird owners, but to enter a new market and help Pontiac gain a new image.
Gas tank in the trunk was needed due to US crash standards...we dont want them blowing up like Crown Vics or Pintos now do we ;)
Radio controls on the right side? Hrm...
The exhaust is dual, just to one side. Now it has dual side exhaust with, IMO, the nicest looking rear end treatment for any car out there.

I believe we have another GTO bashing thread too. Here's the link (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321868&page=3&pp=15)

This goes to show how much of a failure the GTO is.(at least in the eyes of the GM enthusiasts). We need two threads to rehash the same b.s. that people have been posting about the GTO for the past year. I spoke my peace in the other thread.

Hey Sherlock, then later in the same thread, I said it was all a joke. Dont be upset with me because you have to deffend the car you decided to buy. At least all I have to deal with is uptight, freaks that own Vettes :D

The GTO is a decent car, just sucks they didnt do a better job with it or do it sooner. Should have came out in 02' for a phase in to capture Camaro buyers.

I mean come on Gas tank in the trunk?
The main radio controlls are on the right side instead of the left side like they should be
Couldnt redesign the exhaust to have a nice dual setup after they realized they had to put the gas tank in the trunk?
There are a few other points that show this was just a car they moved the steering wheel from the right side to the left side, rebadged it and put it out for sale. Since you own one, I am sure you are aware of them.

The gas tank is a legitimate issue, but I understand why it is there. There is still usable trunk space, and dare I say it probably rivals your Corvette in usable trunk space? I can fit 2 golf bags too. :lol:

The radio controls... it doesn't bother me at all. The only thing that feels "odd" is that the volume knob is on the passenger side of the unit, as is the ON/OFF button... Not the biggest thig in the world, but I'll agree, it is a bit odd.

OK, whelp, if that's all you got on it for issues.... small trunk (in a sports car of all things!) and a slightly odd radio button set up (which doesn't even come into play if you use the steering wheel controls).... then, I think we have a pretty good car on our hands! :thumb:

I believe we have another GTO bashing thread too. Here's the link

LOL Now all of the GM nuthuggers will rush to defend their almighty GTO. :lol:

OK, whelp, if that's all you got on it for issues.... small trunk (in a sports car of all things!) and a slightly odd radio button set up (which doesn't even come into play if you use the steering wheel controls).... then, I think we have a pretty good car on our hands

You missed the part where he said it looks like a mid 1990's terd. :lol:

You missed the part where he said it looks like a mid 1990's terd. :lol:


Well, I just disagree. :tired:

LOL Now all of the GM nuthuggers will rush to defend their almighty GTO. :lol:No need. You guys are just jealous of how nice of a car we own ;)

No need. You guys are just jealous of how nice of a car we own

LOL Considering the car I am driving right now, it would appear you would be right.. :)

Why is it that the "Ford-Guys*" feel they need to come on here and bash everything GM puts out as being inferior to Ford? :irk:


Me thinks someone has an inferiority complex... either that or a lack of size in the manhood department. :D


*These comments do not reflect my opinions of the few Ford-Regulars that actually have a maturity level over the age of 12... you know who you are.

LOL Now all of the GM nuthuggers will rush to defend their almighty GTO. :lol:
:rolleyes: At least you still have the pride to post in this thread even though you've been getting owned repeatedly...I hope they haven't allowed you to troll through the board for the whole 5 years you've been a member.

At least you still have the pride to post in this thread even though you've been getting owned repeatedly...I hope they haven't allowed you to troll through the board for the whole 5 years you've been a member.

Troll? Why because I am not a blind GM nuthugger like yourself?? Give me a break. LMAO.. Owned huh..
Well guess what, the figures of GTO sales posted earlier by a couple of people here...were not actual sales to consumers, but shipments to dealerships...

This really makes the GM nuthuggers look bad concerning GTO figures..

Come to find out the September spike was dealers ordering expected inventories anticipating rebate sales, and not actual customer sales... I can't wait to see November GTO numbers... Considering at the begining of the month of November, only 9847 actual GTO's have been sold to the public, and 5600 are sitting on dealership lots...That is 127 days worth of vehicles sitting and waiting to be sold..

Who is getting owned now? :lol:

November numbers will be out soon....and not the numbers shipped to dealers, which were claimed here as customer sales :lol:

Troll? Why because I am not a blind GM nuthugger like yourself?? Give me a break. LMAO.. Owned huh..
Well guess what, the figures of GTO sales posted earlier by a couple of people here...were not actual sales to consumers, but shipments to dealerships.

This really makes the GM nuthuggers look bad concerning GTO figures..

Come to find out the September spike was dealers ordering expected inventories anticipating rebate sales, and not actual customer sales... I can't wait to see November GTO numbers... Considering at the begining of the month of November, only 9847 actual GTO's have been sold to the public, and 5600 are sitting on dealership lots...That is 127 days worth of vehicles sitting and waiting to be sold..

Who is getting owned now? :lol:

November numbers will be out soon....and not the numbers shipped to dealers, which were claimed here as customer sales :lol:

You REALLY need to get your head out of your a*s and actually take the time to look up things you obviously are clueless about.

Do yourself a favor. Go to www.media.gm.com. At the top of the page (under their logo) there is a page wide list of options. Put your cursor on "NEWS" and a number of choices will come up. Go to "Sales/Production data" and click on it. When the next page pops up, go down to any GM press release that has months SALES. If you go to September's & scroll down to Pontiac, you'll see "GTO had its best sales since launch with 2,678 deliveries, up 177 percent compared to August and its best monthly sales since launch".

If you scroll down past the divisional summaries each month, you will see the sales totals for all GM. You don't need a "media" password to get this, cause I just tried it. Anyone else intrested in seeing this yourself, feel free to.

This is just in case there's any nut cases here who actually believe that Pontiac dealers would suddenly go on a ordering spree and order up 2,600 GTOs when they have only been averaging 700 per month in sales. Or that GTOs that have been in production since September at Fisherman's Bend, Victoria Australia wouldn't show up on GM's monthly production lists till 5 months later in February.

You have to watch yourself around here in case we run across anyone who doesn't know what they are talking about? :rolleyes: :no:

:rolleyes: and you are the dense one posting the wrong numbers..


http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/sales_prod/hist_sales.html

Those figures are "sales deliveries" to DEALERSHIPS, not actual customer sales?? Want to argue this further bigman? :lol:

:rolleyes: and you are the dense one posting the wrong numbers..


http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/sales_prod/hist_sales.html

Those figures are "sales deliveries" to DEALERSHIPS, not actual customer sales?? Want to argue this further bigman? :lol:


Uh.... "Sales Deliveries" means vehicles SALES, DELIVERED to the CUSTOMER... not the dealership.

At the start of the month( November), dealers had 5900 GTOs stockpiled, amounting to 127 days' supply, having sold 9487 GTOs in a market that sells more than 16million vehicles a year.

Well maybe so, but this shows 5900 GTO's sitting on lots as of November 1...


http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11481104%255E2702,00.html

the reason i think the GTO failed is because GM has Ruined a great american classic. thats the most ugly thing they have ever built it looks nothing like a GTO! at least they did 2 things right.....Rear wheel drive and a V8. other than that it sucks.

Great American Classic, huh?
Looks nothing like a GTO, Right?

So tell us, what exactly is a GTO "look"?

Is it this: http://www.gtoheaven.com/images/GT0/64gto.jpg

Or is it this: http://www.gtoheaven.com/images/GT0/70gto.jpg

Maybe it's this: http://www.gtoheaven.com/images/GT0/73front.jpg

Or perhaps, this: http://www.gtoheaven.com/images/GT0/red66.jpg

But don't forget this: http://www.gtoheaven.com/images/GT0/72GtoConvBrown.jpg


But then again all these look like GTO's too: http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/search_results.pl?make=Pontiac&model=Tempest

.....Oh, wait! Those AREN'T GTOs! Those are some of the million and a half run-of-the-mill, economy car, rental car Pontiac Tempests the 488,646 GTOs between '64 - '70 were based on.

But then again, Pontiac Tempests looked just like the rest of Pontiac's line up, just like the current GTO.

So, what IS a "GTO look"?

:rolleyes: and you are the dense one posting the wrong numbers..


http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/sales_prod/hist_sales.html

Those figures are "sales deliveries" to DEALERSHIPS, not actual customer sales?? Want to argue this further bigman? :lol:

It takes 2 sides to argue.

I posted my point and my reference for everyone to read on their own, which they will.

I'm done with you on this point.

Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics...












... even if you win, you're still retarded. :D

GTO sales through Nov (http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=9902)

Nov. 1,130
YTD 10,617

Seems to be holding on inspite of a 17% sales drop for cars.

Damn, those numbers seem low considering the rebates.. I was expecting more GTOs sold than that for November. It tends to show September was only a "spike". With a projected 1500 sales a month volume, and lthey have sold less than that with over 3500 bucks in rebates, that looks pretty bad.

There are over 5k of GTO's sitting on the lots right now, so below invoice pricing should become pretty commonplace. Need to make room for the 05's.


If anyone wants a deal on a GTO, December is the month to buy.

Damn, those numbers seem low considering the rebates.. I was expecting more GTOs sold than that for November. It tends to show September was only a "spike". There are over 5k of GTO's sitting on the lots right now, so below invoice pricing should become pretty commonplace. Need to make room for the 05's.


If anyone wants a deal on a GTO, December is the month to buy.

You are still totally dismissing several factors that do apply, whether you want them to or not...

1) It's November , now December... hardly the hot selling time for RWD coupes.

2) Most people know the 05 is coming with upgrades. A lot of potential buyer are going to hold off, rebate or no rebate.

3) A lot of people who were considering a GTO purchase earlier got turned off by the lack of rebates, and the dealer markups, and may have purchased a different vehicle.

Yes, sales were below expectations.... But the sales figures have shown a good sized increase since the rebates came into play, and the dealers realized they can't upcharge $10k on these cars.

Even if the car was selling like hotcakes, the numbers would start to dwindle as winter approaches, which happens with most performance cars.

1) Whether it is December of June, sales numbers are sales numbers..Even if the market slows for these cars, it still does not deny the fact that certain numbers were projected to sell, and they just do not add up as projected.. Making excuses will not work in the board room.. Trump would fire your ass with an excuse like that :)

2)05 are coming out.I already mentined that possibility of holdout..

3)This would only be an excuse for the first 3-4 months. Sales did not pick up to decent levels until August...Still under estimated sales figures.

A good increase in sales from.... under half of projected sales a month to 75 percent of projected sales a month still is not considered good. Remember Gm projected 1500 sales a month....They only exceeded it one month this year. even with 3500 in rebates.. :eek:

Damn, those numbers seem low considering the rebates.. I was expecting more GTOs sold than that for November. It tends to show September was only a "spike". With a projected 1500 sales a month volume, and lthey have sold less than that with over 3500 bucks in rebates, that looks pretty bad.

There are over 5k of GTO's sitting on the lots right now, so below invoice pricing should become pretty commonplace. Need to make room for the 05's.


If anyone wants a deal on a GTO, December is the month to buy.

"OVER" $3500 in rebates??? :no:
I invite you to look it up: http://www.pontiac.com/currentoffers/index.jsp

Sales have been just fine with the rebates, the average since rebates & incentives started is about 1500.

Dealers who drove customers off with insane mark-ups and draconian test-drive policies before over the GTO are the ones who are tending to have a hard time selling them now.

Just the same, the cars are moving right about expectations...despite heading into winter AND customer knowledge that a new more powerful & improved GTO is just a few weeks away.

Sales didn't pick up until August because dealers were still trying to get over sticker for them. That is a fact you can't deny. All you had to do was go and look at one, because you couldn't take a test drive, they would tell you over MSRP. Even with the first incentives in August, they were trying to just give you that off MSRP. You can't say that didn't hurt sales and turn away potential owners.
The people selling the cars were the GTO's worst enemy. They are only giving good deals because the whole shipment is in and on the lots. If you look at some of the VINs, you'll see that some have been there for quite awhile. Only because they wouldn't move off that "Premium" car status.

1) Whether it is December of June, sales numbers are sales numbers..Even if the market slows for these cars, it still does not deny the fact that certain numbers were projected to sell, and they just do not add up as projected.. Making excuses will not work in the board room.. Trump would fire your ass with an excuse like that :)

2)05 are coming out.I already mentined that possibility of holdout..

3)This would only be an excuse for the first 3-4 months. Sales did not pick up to decent levels until August...Still under estimated sales figures.

A good increase in sales from.... under half of projected sales a month to 75 percent of projected sales a month still is not considered good. Remember Gm projected 1500 sales a month....They only exceeded it one month this year. even with 3500 in rebates.. :eek:


I would assume that the sales numbers for GTO since laet Aug/Sept, based on the month of the figures, would put it on pace, or ahead of it's projected 18,000 unit goal.

The months it lost were prime-selling spring and summer months for this type of car, but the previously mentioned dealer mark-up and lack of rebates in a rebate-flooded market just killed GTO during these months.

Remember Gm projected 1500 sales a month....They only exceeded it one month this year. even with 3500 in rebates.. :eek:

Yes, 1500 per month average , that doesn't mean 1500 eahc and every month. Again, using the logic above, GTO lost out on it's prime selling months where it SHOUDL have been selling over 1500 per month to compensate for a slow RWD coupe market in winter... this didnt happen, again, at least in a large part, because of markup and no rebates.

So, I really think that from the rebates-on (September-ish) , that sales figures have to be at or above what would normally have happened.

I see what you are saying, while I do not agree totally with it.

The only thing to do now is to look at the 05 figures and see how the car performs.. 12k cars projected in 10 months right?

Sales didn't pick up until August because dealers were still trying to get over sticker for them. That is a fact you can't deny

No, in May, the volume of GTo's shipped to dealers were at projected levels. it was the first 4 months were they were short of GTo's on lots, causing the price gouging..Also GM had $2000 in finance incentives to buy in August.

Even in the last 2 months with 3500 in rebates, the cars did not perfrom as projected.

I see what you are saying, while I do not agree totally with it.

The only thing to do now is to look at the 05 figures and see how the car performs.. 12k cars projected in 10 months right?

Ya, I agree.

I think, assuming dealers don't try to pull the same thing with mark-ups because of the new LS2, that the 2005 GTO figures will be a lot less skewed and more telling of how well the car will meet projections.

Of course, one X-factor could be the rebate game again... if GM chooses NOT to put rebates on the car, but continues to offer them on virtually everything else... it's bound to hurt the car again.

I see what you are saying, while I do not agree totally with it.

The only thing to do now is to look at the 05 figures and see how the car performs.. 12k cars projected in 10 months right?They are supposedly going to be built out by the end of May and on sale until August. Then the '06 cars will be here in Sept. like most cars.

No, in May, the volume of GTo's shipped to dealers were at projected levels. it was the first 4 months were they were short of GTo's on lots, causing the price gouging..Also GM had $2000 in finance incentives to buy in August.

Even in the last 2 months with 3500 in rebates, the cars did not perfrom as projected.
Whether they had there projected inventory by May is not the point. The dealers were still trying to gouge even with the first incentives in August. Only allowing the rebate off sticker and not dealing off MSRP at all.

I went to dealer after dealer and they were still playing the premium car status game. From Glen Burnie to Annapolis to Baltimore, they were all the same. Things got really turned around in September with the big rebates. Maybe Pontiac started putting pressure on the dealerships, I dunno.

Troll? Why because I am not a blind GM nuthugger like yourself?? Give me a break. LMAO.. Owned huh..

Thats right...because I'm this obsessed GM fanatic, hugging all over their nuts in hopes they can release some more great 'product' for me :D :rolleyes: I am about the furthest thing from a GM 'loyalist', if you read some of my posts in this and other sections you would know that.

Do yourself a favor and start researching topics before you decide to post 50 times about them, spewing everything but facts and rational thoughts out of your ass.:rolleyes: and you are the dense one posting the wrong numbers..


http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/sales_prod/hist_sales.html

Those figures are "sales deliveries" to DEALERSHIPS, not actual customer sales?? Want to argue this further bigman? :lol:
I believe you just owned yourself :lol:

What an embarrasment :shame:

And you have contributed what to this post?? Absolutely nothing other than riding peoples nads here.

You sound like a GM nuthugging little boy.. "you got owned" "your a troll'..Go back to your playground wonderboy.

The GM nuthugging thing you got all pissy about was obviously just a joke, but since it got your panties all in a bunch here I will continue to use it towards you. :lol:

The GTO wasnt brought here to satisfy any Camaro or Firebird owners, but to enter a new market and help Pontiac gain a new image.
Gas tank in the trunk was needed due to US crash standards...we dont want them blowing up like Crown Vics or Pintos now do we ;)
Radio controls on the right side? Hrm...
The exhaust is dual, just to one side. Now it has dual side exhaust with, IMO, the nicest looking rear end treatment for any car out there.


I know the car was not ment to take place of the Camaro, but there was an open left from no more Camaro, possibly could have captured some of the Camaro people, along with keeping the price down to the 28-30k range.

I dont know if this was mentioned, but i was not about to read ALL 8 pages... Do you guys realize this Lumina SS is for GM Arabia? I just wanted to make sure..