TPI MoRe PoWeR!!!!!!!!

i have a 89 305 tpi car with an auto and was wondering if there is any other emissions controls on the car that can be removed because we dont have the vehicle emissions testing here in kentucky any more if u no tell me thanks.

*thinking wheel of fortune*

can i get a comma please!?!?

NO

can i get a freaking period then?!?!

^ :lol:
Jeez camarokid.. you have been posting a ton lately! Not that it is a bad thing..
But to answer your question; There are a LOT of emmisions crap on your IROC.

i no ive been posting alot im only 15 and have alotta questions i cant ask my dad any more because he just gets mad because ive asked him so many so i guess ill ask you all :D

LOL.. NO KIDDING?? MY DAD HAS GOTTEN TO PISSED OFF TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS NOWADAYS TOO! lol. I am 17.. started off on this board when I was 15 as well :) Just cruise this forum, the suspension, brakes and chassis forum, and you will be good to go :thumb:
But trust me.. learn the suspension as well. I know a LOT (well, I think so anyhow..) about engines, but ask me a detailed suspension question, I am totally lost. I know the basics.. but nothing in depth. It's like I am starting to learn about Engines all oever again, except that it is Suspension, lol.

You could do the coolant hose bypass mod, remove the AIR pump and have the headers that don't have AIR provisions. EGR doesn't net much, if anything. Also you need to have the EPROM reprogrammed so it doesn't throw a code.

I see you are considering the LT1 also. IMO, it is too much work for too little gain. The only savings I can see are the reduced drag of the distributor and the reverse cooling. AFAIK, an LT1 and an L98 maxed out will show that the LT1 makes about 20 HP more because of the 2 items mentioned. IMO, it is not worth the hassle. I am making about 410 at the wheels with a 383 SB, AFR 190 heads and custom cam and the Holley Stealthram.

You could do the coolant hose bypass mod, remove the AIR pump and have the headers that don't have AIR provisions. EGR doesn't net much, if anything. Also you need to have the EPROM reprogrammed so it doesn't throw a code.

I see you are considering the LT1 also. IMO, it is too much work for too little gain. The only savings I can see are the reduced drag of the distributor and the reverse cooling. AFAIK, an LT1 and an L98 maxed out will show that the LT1 makes about 20 HP more because of the 2 items mentioned. IMO, it is not worth the hassle. I am making about 410 at the wheels with a 383 SB, AFR 190 heads and custom cam and the Holley Stealthram.

Well the other benefits, that weren't mentioned are a better PCM, the stock factory heads worked over can support bigger numbers so no need for aftermark. And both engines maxed out being 20hp apart. stock for stock LT1 is better, mod the heads and a cam and the LT1 is better. exhaust LT1 is better. Tune the engine cheap and easy from pcmforless.com and it's better.

Granted some things the L98 is better. some parts are cheaper! more plentiful selection of Aftermarket heads.

it all depends what he wants. LT1 swap is getting simple and easy to do. and the gains are very nice.

You could do the coolant hose bypass mod, remove the AIR pump and have the headers that don't have AIR provisions. EGR doesn't net much, if anything. Also you need to have the EPROM reprogrammed so it doesn't throw a code.

I see you are considering the LT1 also. IMO, it is too much work for too little gain. The only savings I can see are the reduced drag of the distributor and the reverse cooling. AFAIK, an LT1 and an L98 maxed out will show that the LT1 makes about 20 HP more because of the 2 items mentioned. IMO, it is not worth the hassle. I am making about 410 at the wheels with a 383 SB, AFR 190 heads and custom cam and the Holley Stealthram.


So you mean to tell me that with a stroked shortblock, a set of custom aftermarket heads, an aftermarket intake with jack for hood clearance, you can make about the same power as a stock LT1 shortblock with ported stock heads, a stock intake, and a cam matched to the heads, man yeah, who would want to get the whole better engine for little more than the cost of that stealthram........

Hey camaroz28racer2, the Stealth Ram is $507 you tard. Show me an LT1 that makes 410 at the wheels for "just a little bit more than" $507 and I'll personally pay for you to send me your shoe and I'll make a video of myself boiling it and eating it and mail it back to you. Also, I've seen AKLIM's dyno sheet. A ported stock LT1 isn't close to his power.

Hey camaroz28racer2, the Stealth Ram is $507 you tard. Show me an LT1 that makes 410 at the wheels for "just a little bit more than" $507 and I'll personally pay for you to send me your shoe and I'll make a video of myself boiling it and eating it and mail it back to you. Also, I've seen AKLIM's dyno sheet. A ported stock LT1 isn't close to his power.


I have no doubt Aklim makes awesome power with his combo, AFR heads a really nice and I like the stealth ram as well, know a few people with them and it's a great intake.

but the intake in now way give you the power, you left out the fact! that he has a set of AFR heads and a Custom cam.

I was trying to point out that you can get stock LT1 heads worked over nicely, and a Cam to match, with your standard bolt ons (and Im pretty sure Aklim would have bolt-ons.) and you can make very close to 400 @ the wheels, just do a search on the boards.

Hey camaroz28racer2, the Stealth Ram is $507 you tard. Show me an LT1 that makes 410 at the wheels for "just a little bit more than" $507 and I'll personally pay for you to send me your shoe and I'll make a video of myself boiling it and eating it and mail it back to you. Also, I've seen AKLIM's dyno sheet. A ported stock LT1 isn't close to his power.

It's gonna take a lot more than just a 507$ intake to make that 410RWHP. He has AFR heads and a stroked short block. By the way, the stock intake on my LT1 can easily support that HP level and more. And I can get a used one on Ebay for $25. :p

Hey camaroz28racer2, the Stealth Ram is $507 you tard. Show me an LT1 that makes 410 at the wheels for "just a little bit more than" $507 and I'll personally pay for you to send me your shoe and I'll make a video of myself boiling it and eating it and mail it back to you. Also, I've seen AKLIM's dyno sheet. A ported stock LT1 isn't close to his power.

if you were to spend a little more time in LT1 tech you'll see MANY guys making 400-420rwhp with ported heads and cam.... on STOCK BOTTOM ENDS and LT1 intakes. i've seen a few 383 LT1s with AFR heads break 450rwhp on pump gas and LT4 intakes.

One thing you L98 guys have in favor for you is the readily available heads. If i had a third gen the first thing i'd do is build a 383 or 396 and slap some Brodix 18X heads and intake on it. You could make over 500rwhp with those heads easily on a hydraulic cam. Or if you're insane, go for a 15* or 14* head and make even more power. I don't understand why more of you guys don't do this when you tear into your engines. I'm jealous that i can't use these heads on my LT without the conversion work.

Hey camaroz28racer2, the Stealth Ram is $507 you tard. Show me an LT1 that makes 410 at the wheels for "just a little bit more than" $507 and I'll personally pay for you to send me your shoe and I'll make a video of myself boiling it and eating it and mail it back to you. Also, I've seen AKLIM's dyno sheet. A ported stock LT1 isn't close to his power.


Where did I say that an LT1 would make 410 rwhp for the price of the intake ?

Ah oh yeah, i DIDNT, i said it will make the same or more power on the Factory manifold and factory heads, after being ported, with the factory shortblock and a custom cam,

He has a LOT more than just his $507 intake manifold, add in the AFR heads, 383 shortblock, the hacking required to fit that intake under a stock hood, or aftermarket hood, then the fact that the stealthram equipped car couldnt even slip past a visual inspection since it doesnt have egr....

i no ive been posting alot im only 15 and have alotta questions i cant ask my dad any more because he just gets mad because ive asked him so many so i guess ill ask you all :D
on a serious note. Thats kinda sad. I have a daughter, and cant wait to have a son that asks a ton of Camaro questions.

BTW, my heads and intake are basically bolt on from the standpoint that the heads are AFR 190s and have not been touched other than with stiffer springs for the lift of the cam. The intake has not been ported either. If I were to port them larger to say 195 or 200 specs and also port the intake, I could be seeing about 540 at the crank. I estimate about 20% loss with an A4 which makes about 513 at the crank.

Yes, it won't pass emmissions. So? camarokidirocz said he is in KY where there is no testing. It can work. I think you only have to cut the bracing on the hood or in my case, I have a ram air style hood because my stock hood kept hitting the TB when I had my Accel SR.

I do agree that stock for stock, the LT1 is going to be better. However, that is about as far as it goes. So, if he wants to just throw in the LT1 and run against an L98 that is stock, he has an advantage. However, when you go further, and most of us will, it will reach a point where the gain is meaningless. I know that I can get maybe 20 HP if I wanted to rip out my stuff and go to an LT1 but if I am not racing for a career, I could care less about making the extra 20HP for a lot of work. Another thing to consider, many of us started out with small stuff and finally worked to bigger things. I started this whole thing with a 240 HP (yeah, right) engine at the crank thinking it was all I would ever want. Then came heads and cam and the rear end and I swore I would stop there. Then came the stroker motor, beefed up tranny. Then came the intakes and different cam. Now I am thinking that if this motor breaks, I will rebuild it with a low compression set of pistons so I can supercharge it. My point is that you might want to build it with growth in mind.

You can work the stock heads over but by the time you get a professional job done, you are already at the cost of a set of AFR heads and more. Take a look at what LPE charges for his reworked L98 heads. Now, if you want to grind and take a gamble that you will come to something close to what you need, that is another story. With my heads, I could get them cleaned up a little and they would flow as much as I needed for my applications

Maybe on the surface, or after you've bought every mod for both the HP may come out the same in the end. But costs, fitment, tuning, etc typically are just a few of the reasons the LT1 swap is a much better idea than trying to modify the JUNK gm installed in the first place.

A simple example, lets say he wants an honest 400 HP at the crank, 320 to the wheels,

With his current setup most will likely buy a decent 350 shortblock $800 ~
Decent set of heads $1000
Intake (your stealthram example) $510
More trouble with a stock 86-89 MAF setup that maxes the input on the maf at 255 g/sec
And his transmission no doubt is quite old and lacking. to keep things about the same, say $300 on a low mileage 700R4
HR cam $250

now, he's spent $2860, we'll leave out fuel lines since both are needed for the LT1 swap or the stealthram, he's still left with a crap serp/vbelt combination front drive,

or he can purchase a used lower mile LT1 with 4L60E on ebay for about $1700
so now he's already got the decent heads, an intake that will flow like crazy, yeah how many aftermarket intake manifolds do you know of for the LT1, quite a scarce market on those, edelbrock used to make one, gave up, they couldnt improve it much...
Set of roller rockers $200
He's already got a good transmission with the motor.
PS lines $75

His a/c likely doesnt work anyway, compressor is probably shot, we'll count the good a/c compressor on the LT1 vs fixing his current one a trade on what the LT1 lines will cost.

By the time he installs either engine of course he'd have a cai, headers, catback etc, both will make about the same power, trying to piece the replacement motor will cost 2860 for the main components, just for a mild motor, the LT1 is at $1975, there really is little else needed to install it. the LT1 route he's got an extra $900 to mod with, who's faster in the end ?

camaroz28racer2, You are forgetting 2 important things:

1. Your equation holds true IF that is all the far he wants to go.

2. Most importantly, this guy is 15. That means he lacks the knowledge (no offense) and experience and probably patience to get this thing running the way he should. If you know half of what you sound like you know, tell me what you think this guy will know at his age. Then compare it with what you know and see if you think he is capable of this task. Right now, I could install him an Accel Superram in 5 hours, 6 tops. I gaurantee that he will take longer than that (several days) if he wants it done right.

Now, you and I, if we wanted to do this RIGHT and don't cut corners and take longcuts, and if we wanted to stop short right here, we could do it. I know how hard it is because I had an 89 Merkur XR4Ti and the Ford C3 was constantly breaking because I beat it. I swapped a C4 and had all kinds of headaches to get it to work. I had to buy a mount from England which of course didn't work till I modded it. After it worked, it was a joy. However, what I am trying to say is that the average 15 yo doesn't have that kind of knowledge, experience and patience.

IMO, just getting him to install the HSR and done right will be a hard enough first challenge. He would have to maybe figure out how he wants the lines to run, what kind to run (regular or braided steel) and make the fittings work and all the fine adjustments. For instance, he will have to figure out how to convert the distributor from one with a coil on it to a divorced coil. That should teach him to look in the wiring schematics and figure stuff out. That HSR will take him up to about 600 HP if he fluffs it out a little. By that time, he should be more confident on what an engine looks like on the inside.

man yeah, who would want to get the whole better engine for little more than the cost of that stealthram........

Uhh, you said that. Who would want to get the whole better engine for a little more than the cost of the [$507] StealthRam. :confused:

Also the 255g/sec thing is a myth. ONLY If you're pulling more than 255g/sec at part throttle, this is where you get into trouble. Since many cars don't reach this level until they're in the upper 500's hp its a moot point. After the motor has reached full throttle, the MAF sensor is taken out of the equation. The ECM then relies on the peramaters of the IAT, MAP, TPS, and O2 to adjust fuel accordingly. The MAF is solely for part throttle driveability due to its inherent flexibility.

And lastly, I still don't believe that the LT1 has these mythical powers. There is a guy on TGO that ran an NA L98 to the brink of 12's with these mods: HSR, Convertor, exhaust, wheels/tires. Last I heard he was in the low low 13's. He had a STOCK long block L98 WITH exhaust manifolds, not headers, stock 3.23 gears, stock 700R4, stock stock stock.

The point is that you can do anything with any motor. The LT1's only difference from an L98 is the LT1 intake, opticrap, and reverse flow cooling. The heads stock for stock BOTH flow in the upper 190 regions on the intake side and the cam is marginally larger with an LT1. The ONLY advantage for the LT1 is the larger aftermarket. But who's splitting hairs here when the aftermarkets for each motor are just as big as General Motors themselves?

LT1 heads flow better than L98 heads, better than the Aluminum L98 heads too.

L98, LB9, and L69 heads really only flow about 190cfm on the intake as you said. LT1 heads are easily over 200cfm. One of the flow benchs out there by a magazine had them around 230cfm on the intake.

The only real advantages the LT1 has over the L98 are stock head flow, and intake flow. L98's pull on LT1's out of the hole, then the LT1 will pass on by around 60 or 70mph.

The LT1 is definitely faster. If an L98 had the same head flow, compression, and an intake with larger diameter runners I think it would move a heck of a lot faster up top. TPI's are supposed to hit a brick wall above 5,000rpm. Mine is nowhere near stock but I am suprised at just how hard it pulls above 5,000rpm. I can't wait for my converted LT1 intake.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/41598/index4.html

Scroll down. LT1 heads flow 214cfm intake, L98 heads flow 199cfm intake. Not that big of a difference.

Lets say for the sake of argument the LT1 castings flow 7% more air. Not exactly a HUGE improvement over the L98. The exhausts come out to be the same high 150's.

The difference in the motors is the 10.5 CR in the LT1 as opposed to the 9.3 CR for the L98, the Runner length difference in the intakes (9" in the LT1 as opposed to 25.25"!!! in the TPI), the slightly larger LT1 cam profile (lift and duration), and the stock exhaust manifold flow of the LT1.

Since everyone else is chiming in. The L98 doesn't require a high dollar water pump or distributor that pukes every 60-70K under normal driving. An ebay bought LT-1 might make more out of the box but every mod for the lt-1 is going to be about 20% in price. This is coming from a guy who has owned 2 TPI and 2 LT-1 cars. As for ease of ECM programming the lt-1 rocks. As for the ability to pick up parts a dime a dozen the TPI is still in the lead.

Bottom line, they are both great set-ups, both equally expensive on a high end build, and top honors is simply a matter of opinion. Best thing is to work with whichever set-up you are most comfortable with.

My next build up will be a L98 block, LT-1 heads, vortech style intake, SLP runners, stock 400 crank with a two piece crank seal adapter, good ol pink rods, 52 mm TB, self aligning roller rockers and I plan on making power in the 350-400 hp range and do it for less that 2K. That will be limited to the bottom end of course and I will have just as muck fun as someone who makes 500hp or someone making 300hp.

Forget who's faster, just have fun and enjoy your car. :D

If you follow the old addage of around 1.5-1.7hp per CFM of headflow for a street 350, the stock L98 heads can make over 300rwhp pretty easily with a shorter runner intake and mild cam. It's that long intake runner that kills it on top end, not the runner diameter. Pulse wave tuning is a lot more dependent on length, and at high rpm you need shorter runners to make power.

Putting on either an LT1 intake or HSR with a larger cam will wake a L98 up a TON on top end. That'll allow you to turn upwards of 6k rpm with a strong top end. You'll lose a lot of torque down low, but the difference in high rpm power will more than make up for that. If it bothers you, put in a larger stall so you won't have to deal with the low end loss.

I still stand by that you're better off with the L98 to start with if you're going for max power. You build that puppy right with some 14 or 15 degree heads and you'll find even the fastest of NA LS1s in your rear view mirror. Plus you 3rd gen guys don't have to worry about cowl clearance like the 4th gens, which opens a large variety of awsome intakes for these heads. The power is in the top end of the engine... not the name.

Sorry for getting a little off topic...

Where are the guys making big power with ported L98 heads?

:confused:

Converted LT1 intake, stock l98 iron heads, LT4 hot cam, flowtech headers = 300rwhp with a tune. wwwlt1intake.com has the dyno scans and video.

Me? I still want a good set of cleaned up aftermarket heads for my project. That would really produce some power. The ARAO 4v sbc heads would be cool, but I don't have about $7,000 to drop on heads. :eek:

The araos are potent. But you don't need something that radical (or expensive!!!) to make huge power. Mindgame's 383 LT1 with GM 15* heads and modified LT4 intake makes almost 570rwhp on pump gas, naturally aspirated. Chuck Riddeck (the top end builder for Mg) said that he leaving almost 30-40rwhp on the table by not using a EFI converted single plane intake. To this day i haven't seen even 420+ cubic inch LS1/6s make this kind of power as easily. And his car idles much like a cc306 in a well tuned 350. Jim Labreck's 396 LT1 with AFR RR heads is making over 650 crank hp NA too. Both of these engines get their job done with less than 7k rpm too. See the connection? It's all in the top end. Goes to show you just how important the heads and intake really are.

On another note, chuck has either a 427 or 434 SBC in his camaro with SB2.2 heads and intake. From what i've heard, it makes close to or more than 650rwhp NA in much the same manner as MG's car. Can you imagine 20psi of boost running through a beast like that?

It's amazing what the possibilities have become....

Well, the heads are just a dream at this point. As is anything SBC 2.2 related. I haven't done much research into the 18 and 15* stuff. Is it possible to get a converted LT1 intake to fit? Or a HSR? Maybe something to look into for the future, far, far in the future.

Well, the heads are just a dream at this point. As is anything SBC 2.2 related. I haven't done much research into the 18 and 15* stuff. Is it possible to get a converted LT1 intake to fit? Or a HSR? Maybe something to look into for the future, far, far in the future.

Intake ports are a "mirror" design; exhaust ports remain the same as original SB2. All eight ports are angled toward the center of the engine. The SB2.2 has an 11º by 4º intake valve angle and 8º exhaust. The intake valves centerlines were moved 0.250" closer to the intake flange and 0.080" toward the cylinder bore centerline. We recommend a 2.15" intake valve and overall length of 5.65", and the exhaust valves were moved 0.014" ******d. The spark plug holes were moved 0.125" toward the center of the bore for combustion efficiency. This head is redesigned to use shaft mounted aftermarket rocker arms, and the rocker cover rail was rolled five degrees toward the intake flange to increase clearance for the intake rocker arms. The valve spring pads were increased for use of 1.625" valve springs. Material has been added to the deck surface for a 48cc combustion chamber, and with a flat top piston it gives 12.1:1 compression.

The whole idea of 18-15* degree heads is the intake angle. Putting an intake designed for 23* heads on a 18* head is going to cause the same problem, if not more, you were solving with the 18* heads in the first place.

Prices range from $2000 - $4500 for good used SB2.2 heads.