How to make my Z handle better thanb an RX7?

Well, out of curiousity, what would it take to outhandle an '87 or so RX7 Turbo? Strut tower brace, sub frames conn.'s, better struts, etc..
THanx all,
Matt

The most important part about handling is TIRES. Get yourself a good set of tires. After that, shocks are very important as well. You might even want to go as far as upgrading your springs too. After that, get subframe connectors and a strut brace.

Once you're done with all that, you'll have a handling BEAST. Oh, and lightweight materials are always better, because weight plays a factor in everything.

sway bars too.... basically all suspension upgrades, lower the weight, tires

sway bars too.... basically all suspension upgrades, lower the weight, tires

:thumb: Thanks, man. Forgot that one :o

Arn't the stock sized sway bars excellently sized? What kind of shock/strut and springs will I want? Any links?

As far as shock/spring combo, it's best to stay with one manufacturer and get a kit. A lot of sponsors have good deals on lowering kits.

As far as sway bars, I'm not really sure. It's been a while since I've looked at 3rd gen stuff. But I'm sure it's NOT a priority. Priority is Tires-> Shocks/Springs-> SFCs-> STB

What brand and Model of struts/springs do you recommend? Can you help me in locating a kit possibly? What is "STB"?

STB is strut tower brace. The tires, SFCs and shocks will do the most. Almost forgot the sway bars too, get some beefy ones. Bilstein makes very good shocks.

Figured out that STB is strut tower brace, lol; I have heard that they are damn near IMPOSSIBLE to find for a carbureted 305.. any suggestions? But after I do these things, will I be near RX7 handling?

BTW.. does my '85 have a rear frame rail?

What do you mean by handle better?

Big fat sticky tires and basic suspension mods will let you out-skidpad one. They're a lot smaller and lighter so you'll probably never out-slalom one.

The question is way too broad. How do you make the best engine? ;)

What is your definition of "handling"? If all you want is higher lateral acceleration, a good set of tires is all you need. There's a lot more to driving dynamics than just that however. How much oversteer/understeer? How do you want the car to transition?

The best suspension depends on how much power the car makes, what type of driving you'll be doing, what the driver prefers, etc. Do you want autocross, short road race, high speed road racing, top speed runs, drag racing, street driving?

What happens before and after a corner can be just as important and also affects what happens in the corner. Brakes are a big help, as is power.

There are a lot of ways to improve handling but there isn't one formula that works for everyone and every car. It must all act as a balanced system with the rest of the car.

Shock absorbers, springs, and sway bars are the most important suspension components (assuming good tires). They must all work together! If you need plenty of suspension travel you will want looser springs, the shock dampening than must be less agressive. The stabilizer bars also act on the tires so if you aren't overloading them with spring/shock you can go a little bigger. How much roll resistance from front to rear depends on your driving style and also how much power you make.

The best way to improve your suspension is to learn about it and make your own decisions. Another option would be to talk to a professional and let him try to give you what you want. Just throwing parts at the car can end up good or bad, depending on who you listen to and what you want.

Last but not least, the nut behind the wheel is the ultimate component ;)

By handle better, I mean turn faster and more accuratly, taking major corners and not skidding; but I want, err, NEED traction. 300 horse and 350 lb/s are NOT a good combo w/out traction ;) So ya, that is what I am hoping for. What is the skidpad? Why will I do good in that, but not in the slalom? Isn't the skidpad lateral g's?

Read the AutoX and Road Racing forums

Don't post just yet. Just read every topic you can. Sort them by replies, and show all the threads from the last year.

What is the skidpad? Why will I do good in that, but not in the slalom? Isn't the skidpad lateral g's?

Yeah, the skidpad measures sustained lateral g's. The problem isn't sustaining a lateral g, it's getting to it and out of it. If a race was just one big circle, we'd focus on that. We have to go from a straight line, into a turn, and then back out of it AND you want to be able to brake late and get on the gas as early as possible. This all has to be done on a road surface, which usually isn't perfectly flat.

Suppose you can hold a sustained high lateral g on the skidpad because of some nice sticky tires. Now suppose the turn in on the car is too sharp or not sharp enough, there's too much roll resistance in the front or back (or side to side), or the suspension can't maintain tire to road contact because of high rate springs and/or shocks on a bumpy surface. What good is the possible high lateral g if you can't get to it or it takes you too long to get to it?

Kind of like if I had 1000hp but I was running on some cheap, skinny, winter tires. If you can't use it, who cares? It's good for bragging but not for actual performance in the real world.

Well, out of curiousity, what would it take to outhandle an '87 or so RX7 Turbo? Strut tower brace, sub frames conn.'s, better struts, etc..
THanx all,
Matt


Is the RX7 stock? You're at a disadvantage in a couple ways when it comes to comparing handling (i.e. auto-x, canyon carving, road racing). The RX7 is lighter, lower (stock), has a better brake setup (comparable to a C5's), and has an independent rear suspension.

If he's stock, you can make up for most of that stuff by doing what is stated above. RX7's have pretty darn skinny tires stock, so that's a disadvantage for him. Also, if he doesn't know how to drive the car, he might not know how to keep the car in it's powerband etc.

As was said above, one of the biggest upgrades you can make to a car as far as handling goes is what's behind the wheel:D

Biggest things to modify, in order.

Tires
Shocks
Swaybars

The 2ndgen RX7s are nothing special. A stock 4thgen would smoke one on a roadcourse like they were standing still. Nevermind a modded one.

Dope

BTW, did you ever drag race this guy? I remember the thread from a while back but didn't ever see how it ended.

The biggest improvement in handling for my GS400 was when I swapped out the sway bars. But then again the stock GS4 sway bars are definitely going to be more ride-biased than the stock bars on an f-body.

And as has been mentioned, there are many different componants to how well a car handles. Some of them are subjective and some of them are objective.

In some ways, with enough mods but short of stripping almost everything off your car except for the frame/drivetrain, you'll be able to take out an RX7, and in some ways such as predictability or responsiveness, you may never be able to match one. Then again keep in mind that any mods you do to your car can be done to any other car too, so in the end it kind of comes down to who weighs the least, has the best chassis and steering system from the factory, and who can get the best combination of mods and tires on their car. This is one of the main reasons why compact 4-cylinder cars got so popular. They start out lighter so they just feel quite a bit more responsive and respond even better to suspension mods too.

My GS4 is modded to where it will currently out-handle a new BMW 5-series with ease, and still rides considerably smoother than one, too! But I'm also well aware that if the 5-series was modded in a similar fashion to my car, my car would get left in the dust come time for a corner. So it's all just kind of relative, and in my case, I made things go from "OK" to "good", but I will never be at "excellent" IMO unless I have a smaller/lighter car or am willing to make my car ride rougher than even the roughest riding of sports cars.

But really this is why the new magnetically variable shock absorber system that GM and others are starting to use is so cool. It can instantly vary the stiffness of the suspension independently at any wheel. So soak up a bump, then instantly stiffen things up to prevent rebound, then soften up again, then got to ultra stiff on one side and medium on the other side for a sharp turn, etc, etc. :bow:

Biggest things to modify, in order.

Tires
Shocks
Swaybars

The 2ndgen RX7s are nothing special. A stock 4thgen would smoke one on a roadcourse like they were standing still. Nevermind a modded one.

Dope

He wasn't asking how a fourth gen would do against a second gen. He wants to know how his third gen would do.
If you're going to compare a fourth gen, you should compare with a third gen RX7, which although not as powerful as a fourth gen, it would still be able to hand it it's butt through the corners.

He wasn't asking how a fourth gen would do against a second gen. He wants to know how his third gen would do.
If you're going to compare a fourth gen, you should compare with a third gen RX7, which although not as powerful as a fourth gen, it would still be able to hand it it's butt through the corners.

Whoa, how'd I miss that one. My bad.

Oddly enough, thirdgens (the higher end ones) had better suspension than 4thgens. Stiffer springs, bigger swaybars, etc. With the same tires I bet the thirdgen would handle better. Just wouldn't have the power.

Dope

Tires are 2/3rds of your handling and nexts shocks.

Tires are quite simply the best mod you could ever do to your car.

Third gens did have many more factory options on bars and springs etc..

but for your 4th gen

17x9.5 285 sticky tires
35mm hollow or soild front sway bar
blisten shocks HD or revalves if you can afford them


This is a very good set up that would give you a better skipad....and I like this setup drives pretty good

I've owned 3rd gens, 4th gens, and a Turbo II RX-7. Adding tires and a sway bar isn't going to fix everything.

I've owned 3rd gens, 4th gens, and a Turbo II RX-7. Adding tires and a sway bar isn't going to fix everything.

What kind of tires could I get on my 15's that would handle better?

Get 17x9 wheels and get Nitto 555R2, 275/40's

Where could I get good looking, but CHEAP wheels? Cost is the main factor here.

Find some wheels int eh for sale section that have some light curb rash, or the clear coat peeling....sand them and paint them your color of choisce high temp paint

what you want...

spohn or stock formula 36mm/24mm sway bars
adjustable torque arm
tubular rear control arms
steering brace (iroc-z came stock with it)
subframe connectors
adjustable panhard rod
better springs (eibach pro or sportline)
strut tower brace
poly bushings all over
make sure your rag joint and steering gear box are up to par....
good brake with good pads
lower relocation brakets when lowering a car
17 inch rims with a good tire, bfg kdws got a stock zo6 to 1g+
koni yellows
anything else i missed?..

I dunno if you missed anything, but thanx for the compressed list! I saved it and will be looking into each thing seperatly. Thank you!

I can certainly vouch for the tire advice.

I have SFCs, front strut tower bar, DMS springs, LCAs and relocation brackets.

My car before and after is not even the same car, radical difference in handling, cornering and overall *tight* feel.

Would it keep up with an RX7 through the twisties? probably...with the Kumho tires I'm currently running? not a chance.

When I get a little fatter in the wallet I'll get some nice sticky tires. Right now my advantage is I know the limits of the Kumhos I have and I'm comfortable with kicking the butt out while gettin through a turn.

I can't imagine my car with better tires - I would probably have to get a 5 point harness to keep me from going through the t-top.

thats something i am considering for my car...tired of import fags saying a domestic can't handle...back in 84 my car put down .85gs on crap 215/60/15 tires..........lets see how she does on 16 inch gta rims with kdws and all the above mentioned toys

^ agree 100% The IROC's put donw a .91 on the skid pad.. eat that, ricer-f@gs!

1. 275/40/17 Kuhmo ecsta mx's or Nitto 555R2s
2. Bilstein sports
3. Some sort of front end rebuild kit. Your stock **** is old and worn. Bushings at least.
4. Billet Strut mounts (spohn)
5. Eibach pro-kit

Beyond that

Subframe connectors - I run BMR and love them, sphon stuff is highly recommend by my thirdgen friends.
Edelbrock carb/tbi STB. Its just about your only option, Summit sells it.

^ agree 100% The IROC's put donw a .91 on the skid pad.. eat that, ricer-f@gs!

I agree that ricers are pretty freaking stupid when it comes to handling capabilities of cars (especially civics), but you have to remember not to put too muck stock in skidpad numbers; they're a very unrealistic measure of how well a car handles. The smooth, flat surface of a skidpad bears no resemblance to a real road, which is never smooth, and may have bumps, dips, ripples, camber, etc. It's really only a measure of the outright lateral grip of the tyre, which is irrelevant if the suspension can't keep those grippy tyres of the uneven road surface. A car with good skidpad numbers won't necessarily handle or grip better than one with properly sorted road suspension.

A car with an independant rear suspension will, IN GENERAL, be able to handle bumps and road variation better than one with a live axle.

What kind of tires could I get on my 15's that would handle better?In a size large enough for the weight and torque of an F-body? There isn't anything left that's worth much IMO. Not for street use anyway, with the possible exception of Dunlop SP8000's in 245/50ZR15 (they've been around a while, so they're not "state of the art" any more). BFG's new g Sport isn't all bad for grip and slalom behavior, but will not take power on corner exit until you're almost completely straightened out, and the only size of even remote interest is 225/60-15. What's happening is that real performance tire models have already abandoned the larger 15" sizes and the 16's are starting to become fewer and further between as well. (But if you do find something, post it in this thread so I can consider them next time around for my G-body.)

Bottom line: just save up for a 17" package.

Regarding the topic title question, the 2002 Solo II National results show Sam Strano in his ESP Camaro finishing some 2.5 seconds better (over a total 2-day time in the high 90-second range) than the best RX7 driver in ASP. A number of other F-body ESP entrants also turned faster times than the RX7, so it's not just a case of Sam out-driving the RX7 entrant. And the Topeka courses aren't exactly smooth, either. So it's possible. Might not be simple or cheap, but it's still possible.

Norm

I think it would take alot of work to get a the the level of a stock late model Rx7. Those cars transition alot better. Most of the pieces mentioned here would probably not be enough.

A ESP car is certainly fast. Locally, ESP (mostly camaros and evos around here) times have sometimes surpass ASP times since there are alot of good drivers in ESP here. But ASP (usually a GT2, a few 996, a rx7, a few vettes, and the occasional viper) cars are way way faster.

What kind of wheel should I get? (I mean what kind of material; aluminum, or whatever else.) What about IROC wheels.. those would problly be MUCH better than the ones I already hvae, right? I could get a nice set of '87 IROC wheels from a GOOD friend for $50 i think he said. BTW.. is the Edelbrock STB good? Is it worth it? And which model number for carb? I didn't see one available for my application.