Torana TT36!

Here's some early info that I found on the Holden concept, based on the new medium RWD architecture. We'll know more in afew hours!

Holden Tomorrow will be showing there new Torana Concept Car

The Car will be called Torana TT36

TT36 stands for Twin Turbo 3.6l

It will be a 4 door Hatchback

3.6 litre v6 twin turbo 280kw Alloytec was hand built at Holden engine plant in Port Melbourne

6 speed manual

Differential Ratios 3.73:1

Brakes Ventilated disk 365 mm front and rear
6 piston front / 4 piston rear

wheel / tyre 20" x8" 245/35-20 10 spoke 20 inch alloys

Colour is luminous , look at me pink - dubbed ManGenta

It is a 4 seater interior is minimalist black and white

Seats are 8 way electric

The roof is is a panoramic glass roof extends from the steeply naked windscreen all the way to the back hatch.

The project was originally called XP54 ,reflecting the acronym eXperomental Project and coded 54 in recognition of holdens so called studio 54 design workshop in out suburbs of Melbourne

Colour is luminous , look at me pink - dubbed ManGenta


:o

I don't know what the worst part of that is... "Luminous Pink" or the fact that it's called............... "ManGenta" :shock: :o :shame:

Oh goody...another 4 door...painted Mangina pank, no less..... (just kidding...I'm a little punchy this morning) ;)

Oh goody...another 4 door...painted Mangina pank, no less..... (just kidding...I'm a little punchy this morning) ;)

Doug....I've got high hopes here, bud....

When do the photos get released?

Tonight!

4dr? I guess this car will be big enough. And its the same engine as the Velite....are we sure this isnt Zeta?

I'm at the edge of my seat!

From the other article this appears to be re-engineered Kappa.

The roof is is a panoramic glass roof extends from the steeply naked windscreen all the way to the back hatch.

Hmm does this mean the structure has potential for T-tops? :D

Am I the only one thinking Grand National?

Its not gunna be called grand national. Its gunna be Grand something, as all performance Buicks are named.
Grand Sport
Grand National
Grand....

From the other article this appears to be re-engineered Kappa.

All reportings of the car say Kappa just like the reports of the Opel Insigna said Zeta, but it was actually Sigma. If we see the underhood we will know if it is Kappa or Zeta. Kappa will have easily visable frame rails, also the car would have a wider door sill. Also if it has the same width as the Velite then I would bet the farm it is Zeta, otherwise I would call it a moded Kappa.

91, thats exactly what Im thinking. It could even be a cut up Zeta. I mean, its just ONE car concept. If they could get it to fit the dimensions of this XP54, yet still use Zeta, then I think thats what they would do if XP54 wasnt ready.

Oh goody...another 4 door...painted Mangina pank, no less..... (just kidding...I'm a little punchy this morning) ;)

Know where I got the money for this Torana?
Manwhorin'

That's what I was thinking when I saw ManGenta.

Doug....I've got high hopes here, bud....
Don't get your hopes up too high. The Toranas of the seventies looked nothing like a Camaro. :p

I just saw the video... the nose looks a lot like the Opel Insigna.

And it isn't small. :eek:

However, as a Camaro??? :no:

Personally I like the Holden GTS-R. :D

I just saw the video... the nose looks a lot like the Opel Insigna.

And it isn't small. :eek:

However, as a Camaro??? :no:

Personally I like the Holden GTS-R. :D

No more talk of the kappa chassis being too small. It looks like the right size for me. Just take away two of the doors, add a few Camaro styling cues and viola...we have a new camaro...

No more talk of the kappa chassis being too small. It looks like the right size for me. Just take away two of the doors, add a few Camaro styling cues and viola...we have a new camaro...
But NOT if you can't stuff an LS2 under the hood. :no:

V8 will fit...

But NOT if you can't stuff an LS2 under the hood. :no:
did you see a video of the tt36?

did you see a video of the tt36?
Yes, I watched the unveiling live. If it is a Torana, a V8 will have to be available. Also, we know that an engine 4 cylinders long will fit and now we see that a "V" configuration will too. Hmmm... ;)

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?ws4d_nav=true&search_criteria=torana@&Source=all&Page=1

Pics are up :) Not sure about pink and white, but there's potential there :D

Don't get your hopes up too high. The Toranas of the seventies looked nothing like a Camaro. :p

Not for how it looks...but what it's built on.

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?021231

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.....but it looks like an LSx would fit.

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?021231

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.....but it looks like an LSx would fit.

I agree... I see Camaro on this chassis future... :D

http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004100657985&mime=JPG

Looks like a big block could almost fit in this photo.

But the '70s version (http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004100658365&mime=JPG) was a 2-door! ;)

Time for a new letter writing campaign:

Torana as a four door pontiac and a two door Chevy (with different styling if you know what I mean)

It takes balls to make a pink concept car.:D

I think the deminsions of that car would make the perfect Camaro. Just delete two doors and add the V8. If a 4 cylinder and a DOHC V6 can fit, there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Wow...wish I could just look at teh car in black and white. The ManGenta is a little...well...not manly
Very Mazda 3-ish in design, and it looks about the same size. So, whos got there Photoshop Camaro up?

Here is an article from goauto.com.au, I don't have the time atm to see if it is on the site yet :P

TORANA
IS REBORN!
Holden unveils
twin-turbo medium-sized
hatchback concept in Sydney
By MARTON PETTENDY

TORANA is back.
As revealed exclusively in GoAuto e-news last
month, Holden has created – and now taken the
wraps off – a stunning new mid-sized concept car
that resurrects the Torana nameplate and features a
twin-turbo version of the new Port Melbourne-built
Alloytec V6.
Dubbed the “Torana TT36”, the hot-pink
hatchback is tangible evidence that the idea of a
medium-sized rear-drive Holden to rival the likes of
BMW’s all-conquering 3 Series – a concept openly
pursued at one point by former Holden boss Peter
Hanenberger – remains alive and well at Fishermens
Bend … and beyond.
It’s also proof of the performance potential
available in Commodore’s 3.6-litre V6.
By applying twin KO4 Warner turbochargers, an
air-to-air intercooler and variable valve actuation to
its Alloytec 190, then dropping the compression to
9.0:1, Holden engineers were able to deliver a power
peak of 280kW and no less than 480Nm of torque,
with 90 per cent available from just 1600rpm.
Despite being offi cially described as a hand-built
experimental engine, its output sends a clear signal
that, come the next generation VE Commodore
from 2006, Holden will be able to strike back at
Ford’s successful XR6 Turbo with a force-fed sixcylinder
of its own.
Combined with a heavy-duty six-speed manual
transmission with a fi nal drive ratio of a short 3:73
– and a kerb weight that should easily undercut
Commodore’s – Torana TT36 would also be a
performance powerhouse in its own right. If it gets
the green light.
Describing TT36 as Torana’s spiritual successor,
Holden chairman and managing director Denny
Mooney said the concept – originally named
XP54, indicating it’s an experimental project and
recognising Holden’s so-called Studio 54 design
workshop in Melbourne’s outer suburbs – differs
from previous Holden concepts by sharing elements
of GM’s global vehicle underpinnings.
These are believed to include GM’s rear-drive
Kappa architecture, from which the Pontiac Solstice
roadster is built, but GoAuto also understands the
Torana could have been modified heavily enough
to take on a whole new GM platform name of its
own.
One source suggests this new name could be Beta. “Torana TT36 represents a revolution in concept car design
at Holden. We’ve unveiled several examples of our design
fl exibility and build capability in recent years but this car is
exceptional for yet another reason,” Mr Mooney said.
“All recent showcars have been based on our Commodore
V-car platform. Torana TT36, on the other hand, shares many basic
structural elements with the latest GM sports concepts and much of its
chassis componentry is sourced directly from GM.
“It is the fi rst Holden showcar to merge Australian design
and engineering expertise with GM technical resources. Quite
simply, for us it is a ‘game changer’ in automotive design and
production.”
GM product supremo Bob Lutz is on record as saying a
global market of 120,000 vehicles would need to be found
to make Torana manufacture viable – a production volume
Holden, which already produces 180,000 Commodore-based vehicles annually,
is not in a position to meet.
But if a large section of Torana’s potential market was found in Asian markets closer to Australia than the Wilmington, Delaware plant that currently produces all Kappa architecture-based GM vehicles, production of Torana by Holden in a dedicated Australian factory could prove a reality.At the very least, Holden stands to gain lucrative royalties from its intellectual
design property if Torana is produced offshore.
Completed only last weekend, construction of the Torana TT36 showcar
began just fi ve months ago following initial work by former Holden design
director Mike Simcoe, who passed the baton to his successor Tony Stolfo, under
whose leadership UK youngster Ewan Kingsbury fi nished the project.
Said to “showcase bold directional design themes”, the four-seater hatch
features a minimalist black-and-white
leather interior, panoramic glass sunroof extending from
the steeply raked windscreen to the hatch and 20-inch,
10-spoke alloys.
“It’s very performance-driven in terms of the size of
the apertures, the air intakes and grille,” said Mr Stolfo.
“The fenders and quarter panels are pumped to accentuate width and stance.
“It also displays some of the key proportions we’ll see in future cars generally:
front wheels forward, minimal overhang, high belt lines and a high deck. All
these elements create strength and purpose and deliver expressive contemporary
styling.
“The hatch style gives us a very fast line running over the top, and we’ve
given it strong directional lines. In terms of overall design intent, it’s far more
sophisticated sports machine than street machine.
“And because it’s a vehicle which delivers a really large interior compartment
in relation to its exterior size, it shows off our packaging skills, which are a
traditional Holden strength.”
The original Torana was built locally between 1974 and 1979 and last
conquered Bathurst in V8 A9X guise some 25 years ago.

also...that engine bay looks very production. Only thing that looks "concept" is the interior and headlights.

Also, this could deffinatly be this upcoming Pontiac. I think that Holden, Vaux, and Pontiac all need to be on the same playing field. You know that this will be in Europe, and it will probably make it into the US as a Pontiac.
This is a great move for Holden and looks to be a great future for Pontiac, GM Europe, and the hope of a future Camaro.

looks VERY similar to this one which has been out for . . EVER?

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20005

Tailgate is better on the old one, and it has an AWDtrain & V8.

As a family man w/ a Dog, this would be the ULTIMATE vehicle. GM needs to do something quick otherwise I'll end up in a Magnum.

Mike

Can Holden just take over all styling for GMNA already . That is the type of american 4 door sedan that should be in america NOW . Very sweet :cool:

They guy that was in charge of Holden design is now one of the big shots in NA.
If this was out, I would deffinatly get this over the Maxx, with or without twin turbos.
Anyone find size numbers yet?

Anyone find size numbers yet?

I'm looking. So far....none have been released. Maybe tomorrow.

Ok, so the new monte is slated for Zeta and Camaro on this Torana(Coupe version)?

Ok, still need to get dimensions but, here's what we have on "Beta" so far....

BMW 3 series sized. 2+2 seating. Able to take 400-ish horsepower and 400-ish ft/lbs torque. Will fit a T-56. Package protected for 20" wheels. Rigid hydroformed rail frame with forged alloy (control arms and knuckles), SLA front and rear suspension with coil overs and huge brakes. A large interior with a small exterior.

This is what I propose:
Slip a snarling V8 under the hood. Give it agressively inspiring "ponycar" coupe sheetmetal that says, " Hello, I'm Camaro...and I'm here to rip you a new one". Add 3 Z/28 emblems. Oh, and lets keep the 3.73 gears.....it's a Z/28 tradition.

Hello, I'm Camaro...and I'm here to rip you a new one

Red, make sure this finds its way into the Camaro's ads will ya!

Quote of the Year.

The Camaro chops have begun.....

http://www.sub300.com/gm/ccon2.jpg

Rex's chop is very nice! His first chop was a little bit boring.
That one has a bit of my input on it :D

looks VERY similar to this one which has been out for . . EVER?

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/conceptcar?modelid=20005

Tailgate is better on the old one, and it has an AWDtrain & V8.

As a family man w/ a Dog, this would be the ULTIMATE vehicle. GM needs to do something quick otherwise I'll end up in a Magnum.

Mike
The car you discuss is the SSX, which debuted at the Sydney Motor Show two years ago. Max Wolff (the designer) and i drove it up the back streets of Newtown into a studio to shoot it overnight on the first night of the show.
it was based on the running gear and chassis of the then-upcoming HSV Coupe4. It was Commodore sized.
The Torana is much, much smaller than that. a bit smaller than Vectra. it's NOT based on Kappa. it does use complete Solstace suspension systems, but the bit they bolt onto is not Kappa in any way.
It does use similar engineering philosophies to Kappa in the way it has been built, but there isn't a single interchangeable or recognisable segment of the chassis that is Kappa.
And, yep, the paint is crook. worse in the metal than it is in the pics.

you could easily fit a v8 into the older versions, so why dont they. I know for a fact because i see them driving around sydney all the time, and they sound beasty, they have also got the advantage that their small, bringing lighness. One of the records down here from a v8 is from the torana and its in the 8s on the quarter. maybe gm is just becoming more conscious of the rising oil prices, hence less v8 models coming out. i dunno what oil prices are like in the states but in oz the oil is starting to sky rocket... :(
what do yous think...?

Oz mikey ... will it take a V8 ? , smaller than the vectra eh...


what are they trying to immitate ? the HB torana ? sheesh... :mad:

vectra is quite a big car. bigger inside than 3-series and headnig towards 5-series, but slightly narrower.
hence, it's so bloody expensive that, for all its qualities, it's not selling here or in europe.
anyway, this twin turbo V6 is 375 horsepower. why would you want a V8?
i wouldn't think there'd be room for a V8 in it, to be honest. it's not the block, so much, as the ancilleries, that'd stop it.
but given that holden has brewed up a unique platform (bear in mind, though, that while the car is engineered to the point of being a driveable test mule, it has not yet been engineered to meet regulatory crash requirements for Australia, North America or Europe. Did anybody say "China"??), it's not inconceivable that slight tweaks to it could see a V8 inside it.
my guess, though, is that, philosophically, a V8 would be seen to be defeating the purpose of a lightweight, high-tech, rear-drive, prestige small-to-midsizer.
It's probably easier for Americans and Europeans to get their heads around this sort of car, because Australians can get hung up on the Torana name (it's an Australian car from the seventies, made legendary in local touring car racing). It wasn't going to be called Torana, but everybody who saw the dimensions immediately christened it anyway.
If it gets built - and a business case is m-i-l-e-s away from being feasible - it'll be because of North American, Asia-Pacific or European interest and/or capacity. It will never be built on potential Australian volumes alone.
And herein lie the problems with that scenario:

Europe: Seems the most logical place, on the surface. the car fits within the context of Europe's most popular size of car, within the framework of people wanting more prestige within a given set of size parameters, because the road networks where they live (eg, inner cities) can't support bigger bodies.
the downside is that GM doesn't have a prestige brand in Europe capable of pulling it off. Neither Opel nor Vauxhall have prestige connotations, and they have a vested interest in maintaining, not cannibalising, Vectra sales. Saab is a shot duck, and it's traditions are, anyway, in front-drive.
Which leaves ummm, the Fiat Group, and the "put" option is still being argued about in European courts. Shame of it is that it might just be the car to save Alfa Romeo from self destruction...

Asia Pacific: Again, brand selection is an issue, and it's probably the right size for a lot of those markets. Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong would be wealthy enough, china is getting there. Koreans rarely buy anything not made there, indonesia is a mess, India has perhaps more potential than anywhere but China (and has the advantage of not requiring joint-venture manufacturing, where the local end of the jv then steals all the ideas...) and Japan is another NIMBY (not in my back yard) country.

North America: any number of plants with capacity to build it and export back to oz if necessary. but which brand? A smaller Caddy to fit beneath CTS to help push it into europe (and australia) as a brand with a few product streams that are logical?
Pontiac has some logic, as well, because at least some american owners will be relating australian-spec interiors with the brand.
but there'd be better qualified people than me to discuss the potential success, and who that'd be best with, of a premium rear drive C-class small-to mid car.

anyway, this twin turbo V6 is 375 horsepower. why would you want a V8?

i wouldn't think there'd be room for a V8 in it, to be honest. it's not the block, so much, as the ancilleries, that'd stop it.


isn't the HFV6 thats going in it... thats only a 60deg Vee , the ls1/2 is 90 degree, plus all the surroundings(coil packs, air boxes, radiator and pullies), its gonna be tough fit..

as good as the v6 is... I was hoping for an "SLR" sedan and "A9X" size coupe, that could be shared as a camaro sized platform.

I realise the vectra has grown a bit on recent models, but is the size of this car really in the same proportions as the torana was to the kingsy?


I can see where the car has to be successful on a global level to be feasable , especially if its not gonna be just an existing platform, and needs engineering.

The Camaro chops have begun.....

http://www.sub300.com/gm/ccon2.jpg

Where's the Camaro? Not one ounce of Z dna in this attempt.... :(

and a pic from the show.

Torana front :bow:
http://www.markpakula.com/aims04/images/DSC_1421.jpg

alot more pics available from here. (http://www.markpakula.com/aims04/)

Where's the Camaro? Not one ounce of Z dna in this attempt.... :(

I agree, barely a helix.

anyway, this twin turbo V6 is 375 horsepower. why would you want a V8?



A number of reasons.

#1. Camaro without V8 is no Camaro.
#2. V8 gives ~ 400 HP in a naturally aspirated form.
#3. It sounds really good ;)
#4. V8 provides modification capabilities of high HP/TQ but still being naturally aspirated.

If the 5th gen looked at all like this Torana, I'd be all over it like a fat man on a jelly donut. That is one hot looking car and it has a lot of potential! All it needs is two more cylinders and an SS or Z28 badge on the side.

http://www.markpakula.com/aims04/images/DSC_1421.jpg
[/URL]

:drool: :D

No V8. No Camaro. :no:

After reading through the entire thread on cheersandgears with all the additional information on what the Torana really could be... I'm beginning to think this whole "Torana/Kappa is the base for the next Camaro" theory is nothing more than a red herring to throw everyone off the Zeta based Camaro.

I'm not convinced that the Zeta architecture cannot be tweaked to fit Ponycar proportions. Historically if you try to shoehorn a V8 into a chassis designed for a smaller engine, you end up with something like a Chevy II/Nova or Ford Falcon/Mustang. (I'm talking 1st generation circa 1963-65 here folks.) Is that what we want for a new Camaro? :no: The current GTO is fairly close to Ponycar proportions as it is. If the Zeta architecture is good enough for the next GTO, I cannot see how/why it cannot also be used for Camaro. (Don't give me any more of this GTO or Velite is too big to be Camaro crap either, because I'm not buying it!) I'm an engineer, so I want to hear factual technical reasons on why it’s not feasible.

The Torana is a cool looking concept, but that is all it is at this point. Based on what I've now read, I'd say in its present form it’s just as production feasible as the Chevy SS concept. And I see nothing Camaro-like in it.

Look up: Red herring; smokescreen; rouse... We were too close to the truth before and that made GM nervous. :think:

Maybe this should be a separate thread or new poll, but how many would be willing to wait an extra year or 2 for a Kappa based Camaro (assuming that a Camaro is scheduled for 2007 off the Zeta)?

No news, just curious.

Maybe this should be a separate thread or new poll, but how many would be willing to wait an extra year or 2 for a Kappa based Camaro (assuming that a Camaro is scheduled for 2007 off the Zeta)?

No news, just curious.

If it's a better platform for the car...I'd rather wait. The next Camaro will be riding on it's next platform..ummm...nearly forever. It's more important for me that it's done right.

With that said...IF this new architecture materializes....I'm not so sure that a Camaro would actually be delayed. Who knows! We may even see it sooner!

Maybe this should be a separate thread or new poll, but how many would be willing to wait an extra year or 2 for a Kappa based Camaro (assuming that a Camaro is scheduled for 2007 off the Zeta)?

No news, just curious.

I have both: faith and time. ;)

TS

Size specs.

Torana:
Length = 183.18 inches
Width = 70.86 inches
height = 58.03 inches


GTO:
Length = 189.8 inches
Width = 72.5 inches
height = 54.9 inches

G6:
Length = 189.00 inches
Width = 70.6 inches
height = 57.10 inches

Sunfire:
Length = 182.00 inches
Width = 68.40 inches
height = 53.00 inches

Size specs.

Torana:
Length = 183.18 inches
Width = 70.86 inches
height = 58.03 inches


GTO:
Length = 189.8 inches
Width = 72.5 inches
height = 54.9 inches

G6:
Length = 189.00 inches
Width = 70.6 inches
height = 57.10 inches

Sunfire:
Length = 182.00 inches
Width = 68.40 inches
height = 53.00 inchesSince we're talking potential ponycars, you should include the Mustang specs as well. As I said before, the GTO is damn near close to the current Mustang, and inspite of its heritage, should be considered a ponycar. :p

If it's a better platform for the car...I'd rather wait. The next Camaro will be riding on it's next platform..ummm...nearly forever. It's more important for me that it's done right.

With that said...IF this new architecture materializes....I'm not so sure that a Camaro would actually be delayed. Who knows! We may even see it sooner!
But what if the Torana TT36 is on a hodge-podge chassis, just like the Chevy SS and Opel Insignia are? What if it's neither Kappa nor Zeta, nor something in between?

Everyone is getting all worked up over a concept that will never see production in its current form.

Again: red herring, smokescreen, etc...

:think:

This is an idea I had a little bit ago...

What if this chassis is used for the Malibu? :eek: It is a medium car. Develop three body sytles: coupe, sedan and wagon (2 door please). A RWD malibu would be pretty cool. It could help provide the needed volume for kappa.

I would rather have the Camaro...err pony car...on this chassis but it would make a cool malibu...hmmm... ;)

All those nice concepts and Toyota brings this abortion?

http://www.markpakula.com/aims04/pages/DSC_1491.htm

How the hell they've gotten as far as they have is beyond me...

This link was posted on another site. I think it gives a good perspective of the size of the Torana. I would love to see this done with a few other cars...

Click here (http://www.media.holden.com.au/division/holden/04sydney/TT36vA9Xcomparison.pdf)

This link was posted on another site. I think it gives a good perspective of the size of the Torana. I would love to see this done with a few other cars...

Click here (http://www.media.holden.com.au/division/holden/04sydney/TT36vA9Xcomparison.pdf)

Doesn't really look like the firewall height on the Torano is that short either....... :think:

The Torana's size IMHO is close to a GTO, the front 1/4 side shot reminds me of a BMW 3 series... but the rear overhang is too big to where the wheels are. There's too much back there. Way to much. It makes the car look "fat" or "portly"... something that I think plagued many sports cars of the 90's. The Camaro/Firebird had a huge rear bumper that was as good as a diving board. Personally, look to the 2nd gen fbody, even the 3rd a little, and then look to the 90's for examples of trim rear quarters that still met some crash standards. The new GTO certainly has a large rear, the mustang does as well (though it isnt tooo bad right now with that huge front end) the Supra of the 90's, the Fbody, almost everything had a huge rear. One of my personal favorites still reigns down to the 300ZX. Great stance and great portions. The Torana's rear needs to loose a few inches of overhang in the back if it were to EVER make it to the next fbody. The GTO I think has a little less, and the next gen will probably have a better proportion. The problem is, how do you maintain the muscular arches in the rear, the symbol for all that rear-drive power, and not have a huge rear end? The c5 did a decent job, as does the new c6... you dont need 400lb of sheetmetal and a hatchback to do it.

Now I know what you're gonna say - if you were to take the 4th gen's rear bumper and slide it back 6" or 8" into the car, it'd go right where our nice rear well is, or for the convertibles, the trunk. And I know we dont want to loose that, and it'll be a tight squeeze.

The one thing I loved about the 4th gen compared to most other rwd v8's of the 90's was trunk space (not performance, as they all were decent). That huge rear well is worth it's weight in gold at times - I took my convertible on a 2 week vacation with my previous girlfriend, packing decently, and had nothing in the back seat and still spare room in the trunk. It had more room then her 98 mustang drop top did, and because it was so deep, was just better suited for lots of stuff.

I think that was one more of the camaro's selling points in the past 20 years. Compared to it's competition it wasnt the always the cheapest, but it was a solid performer, and it was pretty functional across the board. Also having driven a 4th gen in the winter through plenty of snow, it's much more capable then people realize. And to think - it was a HORRIBLE chassis! Though sales sucked... For a horrible chassis it did what it had to do- and did it decently. The next generation if its a better chassis, and a better performer simply will be a very impressive car if they do even a decent job.

And I say dont build a Camaro on a chassis originally designed for a 4 door, simply because they'll have to start from ground zero to get the portions right, and that might add too much to the scheme of things.

But I hope it doesnt look like the GTO side by side in any angle. They should have similar portions, but very different lines. The one thing I worry about is having the two look the same.

I have fayth. I have patience. And time is on my side.

This may come over as a Pontiac. There is a "mystery" Pontiac that will be forthcoming in the next year or two.