SVT Lightning Cancelled - Big Rumor?

There's a big rumor going around that the SVT Lightning has been cancelled, at least for a couple of years. Apparently the tranny can't handle the engines output. People working for companies that were developing parts for the Lightning report having their contracts bought out by Ford. Anyone else heard anything? Big disappointment if true, but I can understand not wanting that kind of headache. :(

They need to dump the stupid auto, and use a good strong 6spd like the one used the Ford GT. Problem solved. Yeah, it'll probably be an expensive option, but why let a less than capable auto tranny hold the car/truck back?

That would make sense, since my friend has owned 4 lightnings and went through two trannies on his first one, another on his '02 and he just upgraded the one on his '04. They seem to have a LOT of tranny problems.

Time for a real Silverado SS to step it :D ;)

If GM could build a 400HP LS2 that was offered in both Reg and Ext cab, RWD & AWD, auto & 6 speed manual, and allow it to be on a mainstream LS trim instead of fully loaded heated leather LT trim then they would have a winner. :bow:

Forget about the SRT-10 Ram. It is too expensive to be a real player and a AWD LS2 reg cab would be about as fast.

I'd rather buy a Reg cab, 2WD, 400HP, 6 speed, cloth seat, Silverado SS for $29K than a $45K 500HP Ram. 100HP is not worth $15,000 to me. Lets also not forget the Ram is heavier.

Heard the same rumor over the weekend at the NMRA race - though there were no details about why, and someone else was there to rebuke the rumor.

Bottom line? Like most things - who knows.

Here is a link that I saw at another board but I just thought it was a silly rumor. (There is a member who works for a supplier that confirms the contracts were bought out) I just never figured a replacement L was in question but a done deal

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127920

Looks like the L guys and gals are feeling the F-car's pain.

Bummer. It was a nice truck and pushed GM into building the Silverado SS.

Now that only the Dodge is left, there isn't going to be much incentive for GM to finally give the SS some performance to match the looks.

Don't give up hope just yet, I think we're just going to see it delayed for awhile. There's little doubt in my mind it will be back. Just consider it on vacation :p Kinda like the Camaro :D

Correct me if I am wrong but did Ford not already announce that SVT would stop ALL production for at least a year???

Huh! 2 years because they can't find an auto tranny that can handle the torque? Is it really that hard to find an auto tranny that can handle the abuse. Really? Seriously.. I'm asking... not trying to pretend I know.. Any engineers care to chime in. I mean what about the trannies people are running in 9 and 10 second cars that can handle massive torque (a lot more than 500 ft lb). Heck GM high tech had an article on building a bullet proof trans this last month. If the aftermarket can do it, surely an OEM has the power to build or source one?
Or is it long term durability that is the issue?

Correct me if I am wrong but did Ford not already announce that SVT would stop ALL production for at least a year???

That's their normal break between new models, this is something different.

Huh! 2 years because they can't find an auto tranny that can handle the torque? Is it really that hard to find an auto tranny that can handle the abuse. Really? Seriously.. I'm asking... not trying to pretend I know.. Any engineers care to chime in. I mean what about the trannies people are running in 9 and 10 second cars that can handle massive torque (a lot more than 500 ft lb). Heck GM high tech had an article on building a bullet proof trans this last month. If the aftermarket can do it, surely an OEM has the power to build or source one?
Or is it long term durability that is the issue?

I imagine a little of both. Long term durability is a big issue at these power levels (500+ ft-lbs tq). There's not a whole lot of auto trannies that can handle that kind of power. While some shops can build them, how many can they build a year? They would have to build at a minimum 7 to 8 thousand per year based upon Lightning sales. I don't know anyone that can do that, but then again, I'm not in the tranny business. It may take Ford a couple of years to get one going.

Huh! 2 years because they can't find an auto tranny that can handle the torque? Is it really that hard to find an auto tranny that can handle the abuse. Really? Seriously.. I'm asking... not trying to pretend I know..

Maybe GM would be nice enough to sell them one...

A beefed up 4L80E, the next GM 6 speed automatic (for Corvette) or an Allison should shrug off anything the Ford motor can throw at it.

I imagine a little of both. Long term durability is a big issue at these power levels (500+ ft-lbs tq). There's not a whole lot of auto trannies that can handle that kind of power. While some shops can build them, how many can they build a year? They would have to build at a minimum 7 to 8 thousand per year based upon Lightning sales. I don't know anyone that can do that, but then again, I'm not in the tranny business. It may take Ford a couple of years to get one going.

Kind of a dumb question, but Pace mentioning the Allison tranny got me thinking....why not use the Auto from the superduty? Seeing as how they're behind engines making 560+lb-ft of tq, 500lb-ft shouldn't be much of an issue.

I guess the gearing would have to be modified to suit the L, but why can't the superduty's auto be usuable on the L?

I imagine a little of both. Long term durability is a big issue at these power levels (500+ ft-lbs tq). There's not a whole lot of auto trannies that can handle that kind of power. While some shops can build them, how many can they build a year? They would have to build at a minimum 7 to 8 thousand per year based upon Lightning sales. I don't know anyone that can do that, but then again, I'm not in the tranny business. It may take Ford a couple of years to get one going.

Why couldn't they do that? Ford has to know how to build a tranny that can handle the power, but I'm betting that its just too expensive.

They need to dump the stupid auto, and use a good strong 6spd like the one used the Ford GT. Problem solved. Yeah, it'll probably be an expensive option, but why let a less than capable auto tranny hold the car/truck back?


That makes no sence since they have dumped millions of dollars in advertiseing for the truck. We all know ford has terrible tranny's...thats a reason why i will never buy an auto ford. However, i thought they were supposed to get a t-56 m6 tranny in the truck? All the r&d would be done on the truck before they announced a release date and since 05 models are almost due to arrive at the dealerships it just makes no sence.

I remember when the rumors of canceling the 03 cobra came out due to problems with the blower...but look they released on time

IMO, if the SRT-10 has a 6spd, and the upcoming Silvy SS as well as SSR and TBlazer SS will get a 6spd manual, so should the L.

Well, since the projected transmission for the next Gen L is the 5R110........... I don't see what the problem is. The Superduty puts 570lb ft of torque through it already, and it has been holding up fine............ even when the diesels are being turned up.

According to one of the gentlemen who works at the 5R110, it is one tough trans.

PS, Ford auto trannies don't suck any more than anyone elses. If you look around at GM sites, you will see alot of 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L80E failures........... and at low mileages. We used to tow them all the time.

Guess we will just have to wait and see.

[QUOTE=94LightningGal]
PS, Ford auto trannies don't suck any more than anyone elses. If you look around at GM sites, you will see alot of 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L80E failures........... and at low mileages. We used to tow them all the time.
QUOTE]

i think it has been covered MANY times before that all brands have some problems. Lets hope things all work out and the lightning can continue as planned.

I agree L-gal.

What we are forgetting here is that we are talking about the most powerful engines ever built for the street in history. Muscle cars of the 60s weren't putting out anywhere near the ballpark of what some of today's most powerful engines are putting out.

As torque figures blast into space (it's already passed "stratosphere"), the issue isn't in making trannies tough enough, but how to make them tough enough in volume at a reasonable price, and be durable enough to last over 150,000 even with expected abuse.

Trannies dealing with high torque moving heavy loads will face a different set of duribility standards than a trannie behind an engine that's expected to be abused by the owner.

trans.

PS, Ford auto trannies don't suck any more than anyone elses. If you look around at GM sites, you will see alot of 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L80E failures........... and at low mileages. We used to tow them all the time.

Guess we will just have to wait and see.


Not sure on the durability issue, but the auto that came in the SN95 sucked big time compared to a 460le. My wife had a 98 Mustang GT auto and that thing couldnt get out of its own way. It did sound good though. :)

The 4R70W was just an updated version of the good ol AOD. Just as the 4L60/65E is just an updated 700R4. Not much in bragging rights for either.

The 4R70W was never a performance transmission, and should have never been put in that place. However, while it did suck power, and have slow responses, it has not been a troublesome transmission. As a matter of fact, it has been quite reliable.

Now, the 4L60/65E's problems are much worse. Just a bit of history here, from someone who was involved in the specifications for the original 700R4 (on which the 4L60E is based).......... btw, it wasn't me, but was a good friend of mine. He said that the original specifications for the trans were for RWD cars, not weighing over 3500lbs, and with no (or negligible) towing capacity. The transmission was never to go into trucks. Then look at what GM did with them. They have been bandaided over the years to be ok under regular conditions. However, I cannot tell you the amount of GM trucks we towed with the front seal blown out (due to pressure built up under the stress of towing). This included even the latest versions. They also have a problem with destroying hard parts (I believe GM calls it a sun gear, which I understand is the same as forward one-way clutch, or forward sprag in tranny tech talk). The basic issue being that this transmission was never designed for towing............. and especially not heavy towing.

What the problem is with the 4L80E, I don't know. However, we also towed quite a few of them in very low mileage vehicles (under 10,000 miles).

I can even tell you what one of the biggest problems is with the Chrysler transmissions. They used a plastic ball in the steel trans cooler line to buffer the flow. When these balls get hot, they expand and cut off the flow from the trans cooler. You then cook the trans. The amazing thing is that Chrysler may still use this design on some of their current transmissions. I am not completely sure because we closed our Auto Repair and towing business in Feb, 2003 (9/11 just killed us as our location depended on tourism).

The funny thing is, the only 4R100 that we did anything with was in a 38 foot motorhome. Why any company would use something that light duty (relatively speaking) in something that heavy is beyond me.

So, just a bit of personal experience here. :)

I know all about 4l60E's, its why i have a T56 now :). I will say that in my experience and others around here locally, that the 4l60e is very reliable for stock Fbods. Its only when you get into making alot of power that they do have problems. Once I hit over 400rwhp I couldnt keep the 2-3 clutch packs from going out and a few guys have had to upgrade their sprags to a heavier duty one.

come on now its Ford...don't expect too much. :)

Well, since the projected transmission for the next Gen L is the 5R110........... I don't see what the problem is. The Superduty puts 570lb ft of torque through it already, and it has been holding up fine............ even when the diesels are being turned up.

According to one of the gentlemen who works at the 5R110, it is one tough trans.

PS, Ford auto trannies don't suck any more than anyone elses. If you look around at GM sites, you will see alot of 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L80E failures........... and at low mileages. We used to tow them all the time.

Guess we will just have to wait and see.

Uhhh... no. Ford has a pretty substantial history of transmission failures. That's why there are conversion kits to put GM transmissions in Mustangs, and no coversion kits to put Ford transmissions in F-cars (or anything else...). The AOD just flat-out sucks, along with the whole catalog of Ford FWD transmissions.

The core of the problem for Ford is this:

GM gets to spread out the heavy duty transmission desings across a very large market. The 4L60 family was used in a whole passel of cars and trucks that Ford could never match. If the 4L60 family wasn't enough, the 4L80 could backstop it in the trucks.

Ford is in a quandry because they don't want to have to tool a billion dollar transmission line to support Lightning alone.

GM, on the other hand, already has the Allison and the 4L80E, so from a performance truck standpoint they're set. All they have to do is find a beefy enough transfer case and then turn up the wick... God how I wish they would turn up the wick... maybe the V-10 will do it.

I find the statement of the issues regarding the 700R4 interesting, as the good old 700R4 has pretty much come into it's own lately and 4L60E's have been swallowing ever-increasing amount of power for years.

Remember, the Grand National used a 200R4... and those transmissions have seen some incredible power levels.

A pretty common understanding industry-wide is that GM makes the best automatics on the planet.

BMW uses GM transmissions for a reason...

Which reminds me of a joke...

What's the ideal Detroit race car?

A Chrysler engine (426 Hemi) backed up by a GM transmission (TH-400), running a Ford rear end (9").

BS! Id rather have a 502 big block over a hemi that I have to lash the valves every day.
GM is known far better for its great transmissions then Ford. I wasnt going to say anything, because then "im bashing Ford." :rolleyes:

Going to the uber-duty transmissions may be a fuel economy issue. They eat more power than the lighter-duty pieces. Tough to say, though, as I don't know how much wiggle room they had on the Lightning.

A Chrysler engine (426 Hemi) backed up by a GM transmission (TH-400), running a Ford rear end (9").

Exactly. Hey there's nothing wrong with admitting that Ford's automatics have historically been, how should I say, not the greatest? My limited experience in driving auto Ford vehicles showed me the slow, sloppy downshifts compared to the 4L60E in my old Z28s. Then again, look under almost any serious high-powered 3rd or 4th Gen F-body and you're sure to see a 9". Why? Because the performance community universally recognizes the indestructable characteristics of Ford's venerable rear axle.

I can even tell you what one of the biggest problems is with the Chrysler transmissions. They used a plastic ball in the steel trans cooler line to buffer the flow. When these balls get hot, they expand and cut off the flow from the trans cooler. You then cook the trans. The amazing thing is that Chrysler may still use this design on some of their current transmissions. I am not completely sure because we closed our Auto Repair and towing business in Feb, 2003 (9/11 just killed us as our location depended on tourism).


That "little ball" is apart of the transmission bypass valve, and it is a puck of wax that expands and contracts depending on the temp of the trans fluid. It allows the trans to get up to temp quicker and maintain optimum operating temp. Almost every vehicle out there with an auto has one in some form or fashion.

And BTW, this is rumor so far and the "Tomcat" is still on...

And BTW, this is rumor so far and the "Tomcat" is still on...

Exactly, nothing official has been said. It's all rumor and speculation at this point.

BS! Id rather have a 502 big block over a hemi that I have to lash the valves every day.


You have to lash the valves on a mechanical lifter Rat also.

The 200R4 was actually a pretty good trans. Ask around to transmission shops, and they will all tell you that the 700R4, in stock form, was a POS. Note that I was talking about them in trucks............ not in 3400lb cars.

Another good friend of mine was a GM truck engineer at the AZ proving grounds for 18 years (just had to retire due to MS............ and has been fighting GM for 2 years to try to get the money that they owe him. GM is refusing to pay him because he does not have a letter from SS stating that he will not get SS. The problem is that SS no longer issues the letter, you get a phone call only. How dare SS change a policy without checking with GM first. :rolleyes: anyway.......... another story........... another day). We had extensive conversations with him about transmissions, and he told us the story of the 700R4. It seems that GM received alot of letters from transmission shop owners, thanking GM for making such a POS trans.......... as it made them alot of money.

At this time, I lived about 5 miles from the AZ Proving grounds (the one by Williams AFB (now Williams Gateway Airport), which is now closed).

Nowhere did I state that the Ford transmissions were great. Quite to the contrary, as I said the 4R70W had no business being in a performance application, and the AOD had its own set of problems due to the 2-piece main shaft. PS diesels had problems with the TC on the 4R100.......... and when you blow the lock-up converter, it takes out the whole trans. I personally have very little experience with Fords FWD transmissions. You have to understand what drove down Highway 95 in Nevada. The majority of it was 3/4-1-ton trucks towing something (typically 5th wheels). Thus, that is where the majority of our tows came from. There are some very hard pulls close to where our shop was, which caused extreme temperatures in these transmissions, and the problems we saw.

That said, GM is still living on the greatness of the TH350 and TH400's reputation. It is well known in the industry that modern GM transmissions are no better, nor no worse than anyone elses. Just like recent Chrysler transmissions are not problematic like their older ones used to be (excluding the 727 which was a very good trans). In this modern era, economies of scale mean that GM transmissions are going to be relatively cheap to purchase, thus it makes them a very smart deal for a smaller manufacturer to buy (rather than spending the enormous R&D needed to develop their own).

BTW, the 4L80E could in no way handle the torque that the proposed Lightning engine was going to put out............ as we are probably talking around 550lb ft. The only transmissions out there that can are the Ford 5R110 and the Allison 1000 (very similar to each other). The problem I can see is that these type of transmissions are not built for high rpm use. Thus, upgrading........... potentially expensive upgrading, may be necessary.

Of course, this is just my experience and opinion.......... I may be wrong. ;)

BTW, the 4L80E could in no way handle the torque that the proposed Lightning engine was going to put out............ as we are probably talking around 550lb ft. The only transmissions out there that can are the Ford 5R110 and the Allison 1000 (very similar to each other). The problem I can see is that these type of transmissions are not built for high rpm use. Thus, upgrading........... potentially expensive upgrading, may be necessary.

Of course, this is just my experience and opinion.......... I may be wrong. ;)

Yukon XL 3/4-ton models provide unparalleled power with their optional Vortec 8100 V8 (L18). Its 340 hp at 4200 rpm and 455 lb-ft (617 Nm) of torque at 3200 rpm out-muscles even the top competitor's V10. The Vortec 8100 now mates to a new, heavier-duty 4L85-E version of the previously standard 4L80-E four-speed automatic transmission. The 4L85-E provides higher durability and handles more torque for even better off-line acceleration and launch capability. It also handles more torque in reverse gear. The 4L85-E can handle 460 lb-ft (624 Nm) of maximum engine torque, 20 lb-ft more than the 4L80-E. Design enhancements include:

A more robust overdrive roller clutch, featuring larger diameter rollers and a "shuttle car" design; it allows high-speed 4-2 downshifts without any shift sequencing delays and is designed with error-proof assembly features

A more durable turbine shaft; the shaft is induction-hardened using an electrical heat-treating process and then shot-peened to relieve internal stresses in the metal

Brazed blades inside the torque converter; they allow the torque converter to accept and transfer higher torque levels and increase durability

More pinion gears (five total), allowing the gearset to handle higher loads

In other respects, the 4L85-E has the same gear ratios and design features as the 4L80-E. That means operators get the benefit of GM's Tow/Haul mode, for example, which reduces shift busyness and wear when pulling a heavy trailer. It also means they get the proven dependability and smoothness inherent in the 4L80-E's basic design.

The 4L80-E, which continues to be standard with the Vortec 6000 V8 (LQ4) in Yukon XL 3/4-ton models, also provides increased durability by adopting the more robust overdrive roller clutch and stronger turbine shaft used in the 4L85-E. The 4L80-E handles 440 lb-ft (597 Nm) of maximum engine torque capacity. The transmission is so strong, smooth and dependable that it's even used in such applications as medium-duty trucks, motorhomes and some of the world's most expensive luxury cars.

http://lubbockonline.com/special/01/newcarguide/yukon.shtml

The 4l80/5E isn't as far off as you think. It shares a lot with the TH-400, which has been proven behind MUCH more than 550 ft*lbs of torque.

Also, maybe Ford needs to take some notes from Mercedes, and the auto that they put behind their TT V12. That engine makes 738 ft*lbs of torque! :eek:

Uhhh... no. Ford has a pretty substantial history of transmission failures. That's why there are conversion kits to put GM transmissions in Mustangs, and no coversion kits to put Ford transmissions in F-cars (or anything else...)




Adapters for a Ford tranny and GM engine:

http://www.advanceadapters.com/acrobat/ford.pdf

#56 here:

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/AOD.htm

Bentley uses GM's 4L80E as well. Their 6.75L TT V8 makes something like 450hp+ plus they weigh more than some full size trucks.

Adapters for a Ford tranny and GM engine:

http://www.advanceadapters.com/acrobat/ford.pdf

#56 here:

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/AOD.htm

Ummm... maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, but of the 5 transmission conversions on the first link, 3 adapt a GM tranny to a Ford engine, 1 goes Dodge tranny to Ford engine, and the last one goes Ford Tranny to GM engine.

The second link shows how to get rid of an AOD and replace it with a 700R4 in about 6 different applications, and then comes up with this gem:

"GM Automatic transmission to Ford small blocks: We offer an adapter plate and flywheel adapter to couple the GM automatics (TH350, TH400 & 700R4) to the stock Ford engine. This kit is 3/8" thick and provides an excellent way of combining the GM transmission into your Bronco. This kit has become very popular for the rock crawling enthusiast. It provides the ability to install the popular 700R transmission, which has a good reliable reputation and a great low 1st gear for an automatic."



So I was wrong... there actually ARE adaptors for mounting a GM engine to a Ford transmission... and they apparently sell at something like a rate of 1/3 to 1/6 the rate of the GM tranny to Ford engine conversions...

I wonder why that is...



PS - The 700R4 is a TH-350 with an extra gear slapped on and some electronic controls. The 4L60/65E series is an improved 700R4.

The second link shows how to get rid of an AOD and replace it with a 700R4 in about 6 different applications, and then comes up with this gem:

"GM Automatic transmission to Ford small blocks: We offer an adapter plate and flywheel adapter to couple the GM automatics (TH350, TH400 & 700R4) to the stock Ford engine. This kit is 3/8" thick and provides an excellent way of combining the GM transmission into your Bronco. This kit has become very popular for the rock crawling enthusiast. It provides the ability to install the popular 700R transmission, which has a good reliable reputation and a great low 1st gear for an automatic."



So I was wrong... there actually ARE adaptors for mounting a GM engine to a Ford transmission... and they apparently sell at something like a rate of 1/3 to 1/6 the rate of the GM tranny to Ford engine conversions...

I wonder why that is...



You obviously missed the one I was referencing:

"#56AOD. Adapter to install a Ford AOD transmission on a Chevy Small Block motor. Cost $545.00"

They have this adapter because an upgraded AOD tranny is very strong. Lentech had AOD trannies capable of over 1200 hp and rock solid reliability. There is a low 9 second Camaro running a Lentech AOD tranny. My stock AOD lasted almost 200,000 miles and was still going strong when I rebuilt it with heavy duty Lentech components. Most AOD failures are due to line pressure issues due to a $.50 TV grommet which people fail to check (in stock applications). Higher HP levels tend to break the 2 piece input shaft, a piece very easily replaced with a 1 piece unit. The AOD can be very reliable in race applications, it just needs a few changes like any other tranny. And I will not get into the popularity of the C-4 in drag racing, or it's proven reliability in such applications.

You obviously missed the one I was referencing:

"#56AOD. Adapter to install a Ford AOD transmission on a Chevy Small Block motor. Cost $545.00"

No, I saw it. It was buried in between a half dozen GM tranny to Ford engine adapters. That's where I got the 1/6 ratio.

Look... face the music. The AOD was/is a garbage slushbox, just like the 10-bolt is a terrible rear end. You can spend lots of money trying to polish it into something it's not... or you can buy a TH-400 adapter and call it even.

For every Chevrolet converted to run an AOD, there are zillions more Fords converted to run a TH-350 or TH-400 or Powerglide or 700R4 or 4L60/65 or 4L80E.

Just admit it and let's move on.

Look... face the music. The AOD was/is a garbage slushbox, just like the 10-bolt is a terrible rear end. You can spend lots of money trying to polish it into something it's not... or you can buy a TH-400 adapter and call it even.

For every Chevrolet converted to run an AOD, there are zillions more Fords converted to run a TH-350 or TH-400 or Powerglide or 700R4 or 4L60/65 or 4L80E.

Just admit it and let's move on.

I spent $1100 building an AOD that can handle 600 hp (flywheel), more than the stock block can take. Now please tell me that I'm "polishing it into something it's not". I am guessing that there are so many GM conversions because the trannies are generally cheaper used and there are more of them out there (you said this very thing yourself earlier in this post). I suggest that you post this same line in the tech section of the Corral and see some of the responses that you get. And by the way, there were 3 references for GM trannies to Ford blocks, not 6, and 2 for Ford trannies to GM blocks in the second link. One of the conversions was just an expansion of parts from the first, so it's not really separate, just to split hairs.

http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodecat.htm

http://www.lentechautomatics.com/

"In case you should have any doubt about the basic strength of the AOD, here’s a comparison of the FMX-based overdrive’s internals (on the right), with those of little-brother C4. This is not to knock the C4, which certainly has its place, but Bertrand feels the AOD has a much higher ultimate power-handling capability—mathematically as much as 2,000 hp—while offering the undeniable street benefit of a 0.67:1 Overdrive."
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/81358/

Lentech also makes adapters to bolt an AOD to a GM or Chrysler engine:

http://www.lentechautomatics.com/aodhome.html



I can keep going on and on, but I will leave it at this.