GM's small cars something to be proud of...first impressions of G6 and Cobalt

When I walked into my Saturday job (sales at a Pontiac dealer) last Saturday, I was VERY pleased to see our first G6 on the showroom floor...a loaded silver GT, complete with panoramic moonroof. To say the least, this is a car Pontiac can be proud of...and a lot of the appeal is in the details.

Exterior:
-Wheels are gorgeous, clean, simple 17" 5 spokes.
-Attractive body side moldings
-Simple, elegant chrome exhaust tip
-Projector-beam foglights
-What's this? A METAL GRILLE??????????
-Attractive chrome accents around the twin grilles
-Subtle rear spoiler
-Clean, easy-to-grab door handles

Interior:
-Simple, easy-to-ready gauges with chrome trim accents.
-Power adjustable pedals!
-High-quality cloth in this example
-The panoramic roof is worth the $1,500 price...period. And a power sunshade to boot!
-Trip computer built into 6 disc radio! Average MPG, distance, etc...
-Metal interior handles...a quantum leap from the cheap plastic crap handles inside my old '02 Grand Am GT that where the molds came together to press the shape, there was a mold line that could scratch your hand!!!!!!!!!!
-Excellent Monsoon stereo...the only thing my old GT did right inside.
-Comfy seats

I have yet to drive this car, but know it is THE car my girlfriend and I will buy for her next spring, once we can get a 6 speed GTP coupe...assuming a base GTP doesn't go for much more $$ than this loaded GT.

There were a few disappointments though...

-No outside temperature, even with the On Star package? A buddy here at work has a strippo '04 Mazda 6 that at least gives you that!!!!!!!!!!
-No leather wheel in a GT? Why make people spring for the optional leather package to get a decent looking wheel? Oh yeah...the wheel is pretty bad looking, too...
-The upper dash facing screams cheap. The vinyl material on the upper portion of the Grand Am is the ONLY thing better about a Grand Am interior. The upper dash facing in the G6 screams Aztek to me for some odd reason.
-I thought GM's paint process was going better these days...I found dirt stuck in the LR fender!!!

As for the Cobalt, the Big E fair here in Springfield, MA had a Chevy display, including a C6 and a Cobalt. When I first saw the Cobalt, a tan LT sedan, I thought it was a concept car at first because it looked so modern and sporty, riding on huge-looking 17" 5 spoke wheels. It took a second to realize it was a Cobalt! The rear pillar looks much less awkward in person, I must say. Such a nice looking little car, especially with the 17s. While I couldn't sit in it, the interior looked top notch, as expected. Add this one to the shopping list too...

Just a few months back I said to myself there was honestly not ONE GM product that screamed "Buy Me" to me. Now with the Cobalt, G6 and Equinox, there are 3 definite must-drives when we get my girlfriend a car next Spring. Looks like I will be able to buy a new GM car again, after all... :)

Oh boy...the Big E. Everyone hyped that place up when I first moved there for school. LAME.

Anyway, saw the same exact G6 GT, but mine had the leather interior. Steering wheel is right out of the Malibu.
No outside temp? My Malibu has it?

I havent sat in the G6 yet, but I plan on doing a comparison between the Maxx and the G6.
The Nox is a great SUV, and priced right. Just wish they used the 3.5 instead of the 3.4.
And The Cobalt is gunna be a big winner for Chevy.

I drove a G6 at my local dealer last week (it was a base model with only a few options). Very nice :thumb: That electric power steering sure is weird, there's no feel to it at all when youre stopped and move the wheel, or even when you're going slow. Takes some getting used to. The 3.5 sure is a nice engine, my only complaint is the lack of a manual so far, but at least there will be one soon. That was my BIGGEST complaint with the Grand Am.

I hadn't seen one in person, and I had thought it looked pretty frumpy in pictures, but the car sure looks a lot more agressive in person. The headlights look very sharp and I've gotten used to the rear. I can't wait for the coupe, I love that fastback roof! Oh, and the car has loads of room! I had the seat way far back (pretty much all the way) because I'm tall and I didn't really mess with the seat anyway, and then I hopped in the back seat and still had tons of room! I've ridden in the back of Grand Ams before and had no leg space at all, and the G6 had loads of room with the front seats all the way back! :eek: Very well done car, I'll seriously be looking into one once the 6 speed comes out.

The trip computer is installed in the radio unit? This wouldn't bother me since I'm not an audiophile, but if someone wanted to replace the headunit wouldn't they also lose the trip computer??? That's not good.

Just drove a G6. You're right Al....the steering is absolutely numb. My '70 Delta 88 had better feel. Overall it's a pretty nice car...but I couldn't imagine buying a car with so little (well NONE!) tactile feel in it's steering.

I'll likely be picking up a 6 speed awd one for my wife when they come out in a year or so.

I'm curious on just how high the price is going to get on a fully loaded one though.

Just drove a G6. You're right Al....the steering is absolutely numb. My '70 Delta 88 had better feel. Overall it's a pretty nice car...but I couldn't imagine buying a car with so little (well NONE!) tactile feel in it's steering.Um, not so imo. I've spent several hours driving a six speed/3.9L car in the last couple of weeks. I found the steering to be rather nice.

I hope you guys realize that "electric" power steering is NOT steering by wire. It is simply a normal rack where the assist comes from a small electric motor rather than from a hydraulic unit. You are still connected to the road with a real steering shaft. The force required to move the rack comes from the driver's input on the wheel and the electric motor (instead of the hydraulic motor). Electric power steering can theoretically be programmed to offer a wider range of assist over a wider range of conditions more easily than, say, varying the size of the orifice through which the power steering must flow. Plus it removes yet another source of drag (and leaks/failures) on the engine, hydraulic lines, etc.

I assume that most guys around here know that, but you never know. I often see the claim made in lame newspaper "automotive" columns of "numb" steering from the electric assisted vehicles. I think they just jump on the bandwagon and make the claim to sound like they are car people... (the newspaper people, not you guys). And I swear, from the tone of some of their articles (and the non-engineering nature of most of their columns), I really think some of them think that electric power steering is electric steering. :think: Anyway, I've driven Ions and Malibus and G6s, and never had a problem with the steering (other than the goofy looking wheel on the original ION). Although, I read somewhere that the 3.9L GTP G6 was keeping a hydraulic steering setup, which I think doesn't make sense but cannot confirm or deny. The only G6s I've driven were 3.9L six speeds. The Malibu and Ion were Ecotecs. I'll have to check out my parents' new Maxx and see how it feels.

But I thought the Ion and Malibu were fine... Remember, at low speeds, they give maximum assist to minimize the effort required to turn the wheel. I would not judge a car's performance in ANY category based on a parking lot drive... :think:

The trip computer is installed in the radio unit? This wouldn't bother me since I'm not an audiophile, but if someone wanted to replace the headunit wouldn't they also lose the trip computer??? That's not good.

I think the trip computer is only one of your worries. Most modern GM cars have just about every electronic system multiplexed through the radio. Replacing one is probably no fun at all, if not virtually impossible. And the hole from removing the factory one would be ginourmous!

My Malibu's steering isnt the best, but again its not made to be very responsive, but for daily driving and such, its a GREAT little device, and IMO why GM put it in the car. You get used to it quickly. Its very responsive at high speeds. I am very VERY happy with the performance of the 3.5, and its one of the reasons I went with teh Maxx over the Nox or Vibe. Its 200hp might be below "standard", but its low end torque is quite awesome. You can get a good spin out of the tires if you nail it.
I heard that the G6 GTP will get a regular hydrolic powerd r&p to enhance feel and steering. Even BMW was bashed for the same set up.

At the AutoShow in Motion they had a segment called "Chevy Challenge", where you compare specific Chevys to their direct competitors. Let me preface this by saying that IMO, you shouldn't encourage these direct, back to back comparisons with consumers unless you're sure that your product is better.

One of the ones that I did was Malibu vs Accord. The Malibu has "good bones" with it's Epsilon architecture....but it just fails in execution. We've already talked about steering. The suspension is pretty numb too. The interior seems pretty well put together...but there is not one inspiring element to it. Drive this car on an auto-x track and immediately hop into an Accord. The Accords' standard I4 doesn't have the low end torque of the Malibu's V6...but beyond that, the Accord has got it all over the Malibu. Back to back...the Malibu feels like a UPS truck and the Accord feels like a race car. Even the G6...which was abit better than the Malibu (far better style-wise), falls short.

I noticed that I was the only person under retirement age driving the Malibu...so maybe I'm not the target consumer for that comparo.

Eh, I feel the same way.... Looking at a new car and the only ones I am looking at are vw Passats (same thing as brothers audi a6), with TDI 40mpg average is not hard to get on highway, feel and build quality, interior, sorry to say, once you go german, you dont go back. the G6 sure does look very nice, was looking at the GP but looks a little wierd after a while. The reason i was even looking at GM's stable? the $6,000 in rebates, sad enough, there is nothing in gm's stable that interests me outside of the caddies.

Eh, I feel the same way.... Looking at a new car and the only ones I am looking at are vw Passats (same thing as brothers audi a6), with TDI 40mpg average is not hard to get on highway, feel and build quality, interior, sorry to say, once you go german, you dont go back.
I'm not so sure about that... there was that one study that showed Volkswagon has one of the largest gaps between perceived and actual quality. For example, I know one person that had to return her Jetta because of problems with the electrical system (she did receive a new one because the other was a lemon). My best friend's 2002 Jetta started rattling on the inside before my 2000 Firebird. He's on his second 5 speed (firts one died w/i one year), and has had to replace the MAP sensor recently. On the other hand, I have a friend that has been leasing a 2002 Golf TDI and hasn't had any problems with it.

Everyone has problems, and yes I did hear of the problems with the VW, I dunno, GTI's and Passats still made in germany. =P unlike the rest of the lineup.

Reliability wise... European vehicles are the least reliable, though they do make some good interiors. Americans were second best, to the japanese of course. The americans rush to buy whatever BMW or Mercedes they can find here, and shortly there after, they get rid of them cause they can't keep them going. Granted, many of them are a little older, but I know a few with newer BMW's and Mercedes that are barely a couple years old and they have been in the shop a few times. Those suckers aren't cheap either! The Germans pay a 16% tax on everything!

Every GM division with the exception of Hummer posted better quality numbers than VW for the 2004 JD Powers Initial Quality survey as did every other U.S. manufacturer, Kia and Hyundai. VW perceived quality far exceeds their actual quality, IMO. Yes, their interiors are nice looking and have a quality appearance, but they are certainly not trouble-free.

Manufacturer Problems per 100 vehicles

Lexus 87
Cadillac 93
Jaguar 98
Honda 99
Buick 100
Mercury 100
Hyundai 102
Infiniti 104
Toyota 104
Mercedes-Benz 106
Audi 109
BMW 109
Oldsmobile 110
Volvo 113
Acura 117
Chevrolet 119

INDUSTRY AVERAGE 119

Chrysler 120
Dodge 121
Lincoln 121
Pontiac 122
Subaru 123
GMC 127
Ford 130
Mitsubishi 130
Saab 133
Jeep 136
MINI 142
Land Rover 148
Saturn 149
Suzuki 149
Kia 153
Nissan 154
Mazda 157
Scion 158
Porsche 159
Volkswagen 164
HUMMER 173

those numbers are interesting. it always seems like there is a cadillac in the shop getting worked on. and chevy being so much better than gmc how does that happen?

TONY

Um, not so imo. I've spent several hours driving a six speed/3.9L car in the last couple of weeks. I found the steering to be rather nice.



How do you like this variation of the G6? This is THE powertrain that has my interest...and the one I most hope to get for my girlfriend upon debut next spring...

How do you like this variation of the G6? This is THE powertrain that has my interest...and the one I most hope to get for my girlfriend upon debut next spring...

Personally, I just can't comprehend why anyone would want a pushrod V6 with a manual tranny. Unlike an OHV V8, any pushrod V6 sounds terrible are high rpms. The moans and groans of a OHC V6 are tolerable in a bottom-end application, with lots of sound deadener, aimed at a non-enthusiast clientele of geezers - something like a Buick - but if you actually aim to sell the G6 against the new Altima SE-R.... In the end, I'd expect the 3.9 liter/240hp unit to be inferior to any application of Nissan's VQ-series and possible even to Hyundai's upcoming 3.3 liter V6 (if the spin about the new Sonata having "best in class" power is to be believed).

Oh, did I forget to mention that GM's pushrod V6s will soon be the last available in passenger cars anywhere in the world. Either the whole world is wrong, or GM screwed up by limiting the DOHC HFV6 to overpriced "niche" product like the laughably expensive ($42K:lol:) Buick Rendevous Ultra.

Merely out of the sake of curiosity, redzed, is there ANYTHING you like about a GM product? At all? I mean, I am on this site because I rather enjoy GM products, have always been a fan of them, look forward to new product developments, etc. That's why I am here. While I am all for freedom of speech, and I do NOT believe GM does everything right all the time, I ask myself...

Why the HELL are you here? I mean really...I have NEVER seen you do anything but criticize, complain, whine, moan and b!tch in every single thread you enter. When I opened the thread, seeing you had last posted, I knew it had to be something negative. What else is new with you...if you dislike GM so mutch, WHY are you here? Do you really have so little to do with your free time you troll a site and complain about GM products? I mean, if you own a GM car then great...but if your posts tend to reflect your position on GM and ALL its products, then I feel bad you own a car you hate with such a passion.

Now, to respond to your obnoxious comment about OHV engines...

I have never owned an OHC engine, but have driven plenty having worked for a dealer for 4 years. Yes, the LX5 in the outgoing Intrigue sounded better when wound out over a 3800. And I am sure EVERY Intrigue owner appreciates that fact, right? Because, as we know, this is crucial to their enjoyment of the car... :rollseyes:

Pertaining to why I would want an OHV with a manual, lemme see here. Hmmmm...TORQUE. Torque is a fun companion with a manual. It means I don't have to wring the engine's neck quite so much in traffic. It means initial take-off is easier. However, I am supplied with the control and fun of a manual. Do I CARE if my 3900 will not sound so nice at 6 grand? Not at all. I have this magical thing called torque that makes me happy. And I am so, so glad that you have driven a 3900 and know how HORRIBLE it sounds. The smaller 3500 derivative in the Malibu even pleased Car and Driver overall in terms of performance and sound, and they are the most biased rag out there. I mean, I am sure you've driven one and you KNOW its an asinine thing to desire...I mean, an OHV manual????

All those C6 owners are going to be crying in their beer...

My apologies to the board regulars for me flaring up here, but it REALLY pisses me off when people who have never driven something complain about it, with NO knowledge. Plus, redzed is a little bit of a thorn anyways :) I bet you hate the GTO too, don't you? I just wish you had more things to do with your time, honestly...

One more thing about GM's OHV decisions...

I am personally all for it. I have owned an '89 Camaro 2.8, a '95 Grand Am SE 3100, an '02 Grand Am GT, my Z, my Grand Prix and an '89 Formula 305 TPI. What did I like most about these cars? Aside from the 2.8, THE ENGINE. And even that little 2.8 was bulletproof. I applaud GM for having the guts to continue to refine an engine architecture that simply works, and not bowing to what the rags say GM should do. The 3800 in my Grand Prix is smooth, torquey, responsive, and what's this? 28 MPG observed on the highway at an average speed around 80? Not bad for a 200hp, 3,500 lb car.

But man, why would anyone want an OHV engine? I mean, we all know how awful the LS1 and LS2 are. The performance and durability of this engine boggle the mind.

And as for smoothness? I have NEVER had a customer tell me a 3800 was objectionable. So sure, while the rags complain about its over 5 grand growl, what does Joe Consumer think? Its a great engine. Period. Customers in the know are already complaining the engine will be gone in a few years...I am one of them. As for the 60 degree V6, the 3100 in my '95 was smooth as silk, and makes me wonder what the HELL GM did when they went to the 3400 in the N bodies in '99...my '02 Grand Am was obnoxious, despite being the same basic engine. Yet, pop the hood on both and they both sounded almost identical...something I have never been able to explain to anyone. If GM can get their soundproofing right, and continue to refine the engine, there is no reason why this is not a torquey, fuel-efficient, inexpensive option that will work beautifully in Joe Consumer's Malibu, G6, Equinox or whatever for many years.

And like I said before, I am highly doubtful C6 owners feel their engines are lacking...

Just freaking ignore redzed. OHV does not = noisy. Stack up a Gen III V8 against a dohc V8. The Gen 3 sounds quite smooth and pleasant at high rpm.

Engine noise comes from many sources, including intake ducting and exhaust system. A huge factor in noise, though, is how the engine is constructed AND mounted to the vehicle.

Newer engine designs with ultra rigid blocks and heads, structural oil pans that actually become part of the block (as on the Gen III, and not like the basic stamped pans as on the LT1 or SBC), rigid and properly designed and damped accesory mounts, and so forth make a large part of the difference between hearing "noise" and just hearing the part of the engine you want to hear in certain tones (like intake, exhaust). Toyota/Lexus was one of the first applications to really hit this hard, and the whole industry has moved in that direction. For example, the Ecotec 4 cylinder. That thing is freaking smooth (I've driven several, right up to the redline, from the 2.2L to the 2.0L S/C to the 2.0 turbo in the 9-3 to the 2.4L VVT). Most magazines recognize it as such. Yet you often get the standard "...the engine proved to be very smooth and quiet, though not quite up to the level of the best from Japan..." Really? Show me. I swear they type some of that stuff out of habit. I've driven Accord 4 cylinders, Toyota 4 cylinders, and I'll stack the ecotec up against ANY of them. Seriously.

Anyay, as I stated, I've driven a couple 3900/six speed equipped G6s, and I think it is a sweet car. It is very smooth (I didn't have a freaking Accord or Altima to compare it back to back, but it is smooth) and very quiet. It sounds a little more "expensive" than a 3800 does. Maybe not quite BMW inline-6 (or 4.2L Vortec I6) buttery, but smooth enough that I kept having to look at the tach to see what speed the engine was turning. I'd be running around on the track in 4th gear and forget that I still had 5th and 6th, because the engine was very smooth and quiet at 3000 to 3500 rpm in 4th. I also did a few runs into the 5 and 6k range, and it remains very composed there as well. And the 245 hp makes the engine feel strong. I've never driven a supercharged 3800 with a manual (since they don't sell it like that), but the 3900 feels very much like the 3800 S/C in the thrust department (and better in the noise department).

I also thought the steering and braking were quite good in the car. I didn't wring it out on a road course, but I was quite happy with the ride/handling compromise for a sporty family sedan. I really did think BMW-ish more than once as I drove it. The epsilon platform is already known for its rigidity and ride/handling ability. The G6 combines that with sportier styling and a very stout powertrain. Definitely worth a look.

Back to the noise or refinement claims by car rags, I think too many car magazine tools (and worse, the newspaper "auto" columnist tools who pick up on something the "experts" say and then try to perpetuate it so they look like they know what they are talking about - electric steering and pushrod engine "refinement" deficits are two of my favorite examples), and some of the people reading those magazine tools like to bitch about the noisy pushrod engines (but not with the small block, hmmmmm).

Do you really think that adding a metal rod into the valve train to transfer the force from the camlobes over a short distance all of the sudden makes an engine sound like crap? Keep in mind, too, that with DOHC 4-valve engine, you get 4 cams (or two in a line engine) turning instead of one, and twice as many valves opening and closing, rockers pivoting, lifters moving, etc. So you have different (and more) sources of noise. Not necessarily smoother, just different. I swear, I think half of it is psychological...

Just freaking ignore redzed. OHV does not = noisy. Stack up a Gen III V8 against a dohc V8. The Gen 3 sounds quite smooth and pleasant at high rpm.

1. I wasn't talking about OHV V8s.

2. With the impending death of the Taurus, GM will be the sole producer of OHV V6s in the entire world.

Engine noise comes from many sources, including intake ducting and exhaust system. A huge factor in noise, though, is how the engine is constructed AND mounted to the vehicle.

Newer engine designs with ultra rigid blocks and heads, structural oil pans that actually become part of the block (as on the Gen III, and not like the basic stamped pans as on the LT1 or SBC), rigid and properly designed and damped accesory mounts, and so forth make a large part of the difference between hearing "noise" and just hearing the part of the engine you want to hear in certain tones (like intake, exhaust). Toyota/Lexus was one of the first applications to really hit this hard, and the whole industry has moved in that direction. For example, the Ecotec 4 cylinder. That thing is freaking smooth (I've driven several, right up to the redline, from the 2.2L to the 2.0L S/C to the 2.0 turbo in the 9-3 to the 2.4L VVT). Most magazines recognize it as such. Yet you often get the standard "...the engine proved to be very smooth and quiet, though not quite up to the level of the best from Japan..." Really? Show me. I swear they type some of that stuff out of habit. I've driven Accord 4 cylinders, Toyota 4 cylinders, and I'll stack the ecotec up against ANY of them. Seriously.

I'm glad a GM employee thinks so highly of GM's Ecotec motors.


Anyay, as I stated, I've driven a couple 3900/six speed equipped G6s, and I think it is a sweet car. It is very smooth (I didn't have a freaking Accord or Altima to compare it back to back, but it is smooth) and very quiet. It sounds a little more "expensive" than a 3800 does. Maybe not quite BMW inline-6 (or 4.2L Vortec I6) buttery, but smooth enough that I kept having to look at the tach to see what speed the engine was turning. I'd be running around on the track in 4th gear and forget that I still had 5th and 6th, because the engine was very smooth and quiet at 3000 to 3500 rpm in 4th. I also did a few runs into the 5 and 6k range, and it remains very composed there as well. And the 245 hp makes the engine feel strong. I've never driven a supercharged 3800 with a manual (since they don't sell it like that), but the 3900 feels very much like the 3800 S/C in the thrust department (and better in the noise department).

I also thought the steering and braking were quite good in the car. I didn't wring it out on a road course, but I was quite happy with the ride/handling compromise for a sporty family sedan. I really did think BMW-ish more than once as I drove it. The epsilon platform is already known for its rigidity and ride/handling ability. The G6 combines that with sportier styling and a very stout powertrain. Definitely worth a look.

Back to the noise or refinement claims by car rags, I think too many car magazine tools (and worse, the newspaper "auto" columnist tools who pick up on something the "experts" say and then try to perpetuate it so they look like they know what they are talking about - electric steering and pushrod engine "refinement" deficits are two of my favorite examples), and some of the people reading those magazine tools like to bitch about the noisy pushrod engines (but not with the small block, hmmmmm).

Do you really think that adding a metal rod into the valve train to transfer the force from the camlobes over a short distance all of the sudden makes an engine sound like crap? Keep in mind, too, that with DOHC 4-valve engine, you get 4 cams (or two in a line engine) turning instead of one, and twice as many valves opening and closing, rockers pivoting, lifters moving, etc. So you have different (and more) sources of noise. Not necessarily smoother, just different. I swear, I think half of it is psychological...

1. I've already seen a current 3.5liter/200hp G6 with an MSRP of $27,590(!), so I can only assume that the 3.9 liter model will be pushing $30K. This Pontiac is obviously "BMW-ish" in sticker price, if not in styling, resale value or engineering.

2. Based on the recommendations of this GM employee, I look forward to renting a G6.

3. All domestic cars compare favorably to the "foreign competition" (a) if you work for the company and (b) get a massive employee discount.

4. The OHV V6 Pontiac G6 is probably the best FWD Pontiac ever made, and will be a great car for people who've already owned a succession of Grand Ams.

5. If GM employees actually wrote all the articles in the car mags, GM cars would get alot better press..

Personally, I just can't comprehend why anyone would want a pushrod V6 with a manual tranny. Unlike an OHV V8, any pushrod V6 sounds terrible are high rpms. The moans and groans of a OHC V6 are tolerable in a bottom-end application, with lots of sound deadener, aimed at a non-enthusiast clientele of geezers - something like a Buick - but if you actually aim to sell the G6 against the new Altima SE-R.... In the end, I'd expect the 3.9 liter/240hp unit to be inferior to any application of Nissan's VQ-series and possible even to Hyundai's upcoming 3.3 liter V6 (if the spin about the new Sonata having "best in class" power is to be believed).

Oh, did I forget to mention that GM's pushrod V6s will soon be the last available in passenger cars anywhere in the world. Either the whole world is wrong, or GM screwed up by limiting the DOHC HFV6 to overpriced "niche" product like the laughably expensive ($42K:lol:) Buick Rendevous Ultra.

99.5% of customers will not care.

1. I wasn't talking about OHV V8s.

1. I've already seen a current 3.5liter/200hp G6 with an MSRP of $27,590(!), so I can only assume that the 3.9 liter model will be pushing $30K. This Pontiac is obviously "BMW-ish" in sticker price, if not in styling, resale value or engineering.



Really? Man, it must be great to assume everything, as you typically do. A $27,590 G6 GT will have every single option possible, including leather, On-Star, Panormaic roof (a $1,500 option alone), chrome wheels, 6 CD Monsoon, dual heated seats, radio controls on the wheel, etc. Not to mention all the standards, including 17s, ABS, power everything, adjustable pedals, etc. So using your logic, then yes maybe it is possible to get a 3.9 up to $29k or so.

But I am confident most will NOT reach that high. How is this any different than what the Grand Prix has done for years? Even today it is quite possible to option a loaded GT past a GTP...how is this example any different?

A cloth GTP with a normal sunroof, 6 speed and non-chrome wheels will more than likely sticker around $26,000-$26,500, based on GT #s. Look at that $27,590 and all that it carries with standard and optional features, THEN compare it to the competitors. I don't see a huge sunroof, chrome wheels or On-Star anywhere on a Mazda 6's options list...do you?

A guy at work (my real job as an analyst with Banknorth Massachusetts) just bought an '04 Mazda 6. I invited him over to look at a baseline G6 6 cylinder. His '04 stickered for $20,500, this G6 is $21,800 with $800 in options. His car has a leather wheel and radio controls on the wheel as advantages over the 6. The G6?

-V6
-On-board computer (I mis-spoke above...EVERY G6 radio has this)
-4 wheel disc brakes versus rear drums
-Alloy wheels
-Power adjustable pedals
-A few other minute differences.

For $1,300 more, even he admits the G6 is a downright steal. And funny, he rather enjoyed the relaxed hum of that "dated" OHV V6 over the thrashing of his little 4 cylinder. Indeed...the G6 is a rip-off, for sure, when compared to its competitors :rolleyes:

Well, Mazda 6's little 4 cylinder does have one issue - it sounds like it has developed holes at the manifold. It's a little noisy.

I test-drove I4 5-speed, and I was truly surprised at what a fine engine it was. I thought it would be underpowered, but it didn't feel like it even at highway speeds. It "propels" the car :D in the 1/4 mi in about 16.4 - 16.6 seconds, which is just fine. This is a tick behind Malibu's V6, so the losses are not that apparent. Besides, there's no substitute for a manual ;).

Personal preference - I'll take a Japanese 4-cylinder with a manual transmission over a domestic 6-cylinder automatic. But if you can get G6 with base V6 and manual - that's a pretty tough decision as far as powertrain is concerned.

I have no beef with Mazda 4 cylinders at all, quite frankly. My girlfriend's current car is a '93 Probe with only 61k miles on it. All Probes from '93-'97 had either a Mazda-built 115hp 2.0 4 banger or the 168hp 2.5 V6. This little motor pulls far better than its 115hp would suggest, is fairly smooth and has proven perfectly reliable in the 9 months and 13k miles we've owned it. We had to put a timing belt on it when we first got it, and at that point we did plugs and wires as well. The only engine defect was a valve cover gasket leak I also fixed...I dare say to be the only leak in a 13 year old engine is ok, especially considering GM's track record with intake gaskets... :rolleyes:

However, while the stick is fun, the torque and smoothness of a V6 for the same $$$ is, well, funner IMO :)

99.5% of customers will not care.

I agree that most Pontiac G6 customers "will not care" about the mechanical aspect of their car. However, if GM intends to chase affluent, knowledgable and enthusiastic buyers with the Pontiac brand.... :(

I guess my point is that the G6 will only lure BMW owners who recently had their 3-series repoed. ;)

I agree that most Pontiac G6 customers "will not care" about the mechanical aspect of their car. However, if GM intends to chase affluent, knowledgable and enthusiastic buyers with the Pontiac brand.... :(

I guess my point is that the G6 will only lure BMW owners who recently had their 3-series repoed. ;)

I'd be willing to bet that the same percentage of BMW buyers "don't care" about what type of engine is in their 325i Sedan either...

Oh, wait... every BMW buyer is a knowledgeable car enthusiast, right?? :think:

Really? Man, it must be great to assume everything, as you typically do. A $27,590 G6 GT will have every single option possible, including leather, On-Star, Panormaic roof (a $1,500 option alone), chrome wheels, 6 CD Monsoon, dual heated seats, radio controls on the wheel, etc. Not to mention all the standards, including 17s, ABS, power everything, adjustable pedals, etc. So using your logic, then yes maybe it is possible to get a 3.9 up to $29k or so.

But I am confident most will NOT reach that high. How is this any different than what the Grand Prix has done for years? Even today it is quite possible to option a loaded GT past a GTP...how is this example any different?

A cloth GTP with a normal sunroof, 6 speed and non-chrome wheels will more than likely sticker around $26,000-$26,500, based on GT #s. Look at that $27,590 and all that it carries with standard and optional features, THEN compare it to the competitors. I don't see a huge sunroof, chrome wheels or On-Star anywhere on a Mazda 6's options list...do you?

A guy at work (my real job as an analyst with Banknorth Massachusetts) just bought an '04 Mazda 6. I invited him over to look at a baseline G6 6 cylinder. His '04 stickered for $20,500, this G6 is $21,800 with $800 in options. His car has a leather wheel and radio controls on the wheel as advantages over the 6. The G6?

-V6
-On-board computer (I mis-spoke above...EVERY G6 radio has this)
-4 wheel disc brakes versus rear drums
-Alloy wheels
-Power adjustable pedals
-A few other minute differences.

For $1,300 more, even he admits the G6 is a downright steal. And funny, he rather enjoyed the relaxed hum of that "dated" OHV V6 over the thrashing of his little 4 cylinder. Indeed...the G6 is a rip-off, for sure, when compared to its competitors :rolleyes:

1. I have a pretty low opinion of the Mazda 6, and most Mazda branded products in general.

2. Since most every non-Korean, non-Ford affiliated manufacturer makes a better mid-sized car than the Mazda 6, you've picked a pretty soft target for the G6.

3. By next year, Pontiac G6 "rental buybacks" will be readily and cheaply available. Who can argue against the "value" of cars that still have the remainder of a factory warranty and will go through auction for far less than half of original MSRP?

4. When Oprah gave away those G6s, it said volumes about the true value of Pontiac's new "BMW beater." Yup, they were worth every penny of the $8K or so that every "winner" paid in income tax.

People who buy BMW's enthusiasts for the most part, eh? :D Or more than likely bought it for the neat little hood ornament, and the attitude that goes with it :rolleyes:

At the bank here I know at least 4 lenders with 3 series. These guys are about as far from car enthusiasts as I can imagine. They bought it because it said BMW on it, not because they felt it was some supreme piece of automotive excellence. To challenege your opinion, I'd be willing to say there are MORE true car guys driving Pontiacs than BMWs. I see far more modified Trans Ams, Grand Prixs, Grand Ams and yes, even GTOs around here than I have ever seen BMWs. Why? Enthusiasts can actually afford one.

BMW is a staus symbol first and foremost to the vast majority of their buyers...I'm willing to bet money on it. Hey, at least I can change the radio stations in the inferior G6. iDrive???????? :D

And that brings me to my point...you are fantastic at pointing out all of GM's faults while ignoring others. So again, it begs the question...why waste your time here? I thought it was great I berated your general attitude and never heard a word of response :)

And the Mazda 6 is a "soft" comparison? Explain that one to me...PLEASE. You are probably the only person here that pictures the Mazda 6 as being inferior to its competition...I cannot wait to here THIS BS....

1. I wasn't talking about OHV V8s.Care to explain why the presence of an ohv valvetrain is a problem on a 60 degree V6 but not on a 90 degree V8? I know you weren't talking about the V8; I was talking about it because no one seems to care about it in the small block.2. With the impending death of the Taurus, GM will be the sole producer of OHV V6s in the entire world. So?
I'm glad a GM employee thinks so highly of GM's Ecotec motors. :lol: Good counter claim. Having driven numerous ecotecs and numerous four cylinders from other makers, I am entitled to my opinion of the engine, regardless of my employment status. 1. I've already seen a current 3.5liter/200hp G6 with an MSRP of $27,590(!), so I can only assume that the 3.9 liter model will be pushing $30K. This Pontiac is obviously "BMW-ish" in sticker price, if not in styling, resale value or engineering. Others have addressed this price issue above, so I'll leave it alone I guess.2. Based on the recommendations of this GM employee, I look forward to renting a G6. Hope you like it. I think the Grand Am will be the fleet queen, at least in the first year (much like the "Classic" stood in for the Malibu at most rental places).3. All domestic cars compare favorably to the "foreign competition" (a) if you work for the company and (b) get a massive employee discount. :lol: Sure, I have some bias (just as everyone does about a given topic, for one reason or another) in support of my home team. But don't kid yourself, the discount isn't all that massive at all. 4. The OHV V6 Pontiac G6 is probably the best FWD Pontiac ever made, and will be a great car for people who've already owned a succession of Grand Ams. Indeed. It will also be a great car for anyone else who is in the market for a midsize sedan and cares to drop their bias and ignorance long enough to give it a try.5. If GM employees actually wrote all the articles in the car mags, GM cars would get alot better press.. Probably so. Of course, since this isn't an auto magazine, but an online forum where just about ANYONE can post, I don't see the relevance here. Jason started a thread about being impressed with a couple of upcoming GM vehicles (something certain other members would likely never admit to, unless the media started fawning over the product the way they do over Hondas - then it would be cool to like GM and admit that they have good stuff too). I felt I had something to contribute to the thread, something counter to the usual (and often baseless) blather posted by, well, you know who...

:blah:

People who buy BMW's enthusiasts for the most part, eh? :D Or more than likely bought it for the neat little hood ornament, and the attitude that goes with it :rolleyes:

Actually, BMWs don't have hood ornaments. An understandable mistake, because you probably see very few BMWs or BMW owners at a Pontiac franchise.


At the bank here I know at least 4 lenders with 3 series. These guys are about as far from car enthusiasts as I can imagine. They bought it because it said BMW on it, not because they felt it was some supreme piece of automotive excellence. To challenege your opinion, I'd be willing to say there are MORE true car guys driving Pontiacs than BMWs. I see far more modified Trans Ams, Grand Prixs, Grand Ams and yes, even GTOs around here than I have ever seen BMWs. Why? Enthusiasts can actually afford one.....

1. Bank reps? If the only BMW owners you know are "lenders," you obviously don't get out much?

2. If "true car guys" are NASCAR fans, then yes there are more true car guys that own Pontiacs.

3. BMW owners don't make cheesy mods. Instead, they shell out for "Sport" and "Performance" packages. Just try finding a 325i that isn't a manual with the Sport Package.

4. When you consider the awesome resale values, BMWs are actually cheaper to own/lease than many far cheaper Domestic/Korean products?


BMW is a staus symbol first and foremost to the vast majority of their buyers...I'm willing to bet money on it. Hey, at least I can change the radio stations in the inferior G6. iDrive???????? :D

1. Of course a BMW is a status symbol worldwide.

2. Actually, I-Drive is a brilliant way of getting rid of a huge number of look alike button that come with just about every navigation system.

3. Have you ever driven a 7-series? Despite the criticism, the car is great to drive and actually sells better in the U.S. than the old model. Maybe it's that wacky column shifter...


And that brings me to my point...you are fantastic at pointing out all of GM's faults while ignoring others. So again, it begs the question...why waste your time here? I thought it was great I berated your general attitude and never heard a word of response :)

Shucks, I'd actually like to buy another GM product, so I'm actually hoping that they bring something reasonable out - sooner or later.


And the Mazda 6 is a "soft" comparison? Explain that one to me...PLEASE. You are probably the only person here that pictures the Mazda 6 as being inferior to its competition...I cannot wait to here THIS BS....

Compare the top of the line Mazda 6 to an Altima V6, a Camry V6 SE or even an Accord LX V6. The "real" Japanese competition is all bigger and more powerful.

Jason started a thread about being impressed with a couple of upcoming GM vehicles (something certain other members would likely never admit to, unless the media started fawning over the product the way they do over Hondas - then it would be cool to like GM and admit that they have good stuff too). I felt I had something to contribute to the thread, something counter to the usual (and often baseless) blather posted by, well, you know who...

:blah:

1. Actually, I'm going to post a Honda/Acura thread really soon. I'm sure it'll warm the heart of every GM employee.

2. The fact remains that nobody attempted to "think out of the box" when it came to designing the G6. This car is a giant step forward for Pontiac, but absolutely no advance on the current non-GM class leaders. The G6 needed a 250hp DOHC V6, adequate rear-headroom and styling that didn't shout "Next Generation Grand Am."

2. Actually, I-Drive is a brilliant way....

The iDrive is brilliant? :lol: Actually from everything I've heard the user has to be brilliant just to turn on the A/C with the darn thing....it may be an interesting concept but the execution is typical German...much more complex than it needs to be. I have an engineering buddy who works for Detroit Diesel which is owned by DCX...they have the Germans running through the plant all the time telling them how things should be done...and the joke is if it takes 2 parts to perform a task for the American engineer it will take 5 with the German engineer....because that's just more "sophisticated." :rolleyes:

I work for a valet company in Williamson county, 3rd richest county in the country. So our clientel drives all the fancy Mercedez, BMW's, Lexus's, Caddys, and Acuras, and Infinitis.

I will tell you for a fact that most BMW drivers are not enthusiasts. They buy their car for the status symbol. The fact that it drives nice is a plus. Most of the BMW's I park do not have the sport package. And in the past year I think I've parked maybe 7 or 8 BMW's with a stick. And I bet I've parked over 100 BMW's in that same time period.

And the G6 is a really nice car. I sat in one at the dealership Sporty looks, and a almost flawlessly executed interior, and a very competitive price. I think Pontaic will get a lot more people into the showrooms with this one.

And the reason that manufactors are going to electric assist is for gas mileage. It gives the car 1/2 more of a mpg. This is pretty significant when you consider that the manufactors have to meet the CAFE standards. I read that in this month's Motor Trend review on the G6. I don't know if it gives an inferior feel because I haven't driven a car with it.

On the subject of BMWs... While I would estimate roughly that most (meaning more than 50%) of their owners are just people looking for owning a BMW for its name and what it implies, there is also a very large percentage of enthusiasts (who can afford them). Acura Integra, for example, was bought mainly by customers who are not enthusiasts, yet it created one of the largest followings. Same with BMW.

It is very hard to compare such figures as Pontiac owners vs. BMW owners. Some specific models of Pontiacs are owned by enthusiasts more so (TransAm, Formula), while others are not (Grand Am, Gran Prix). Same goes for BMW. There's your 3-series, then there's your M series and Z series.

As for cheesy mods... Shelling out an exorbitant amount of money for a sport package might indeed qualify for a cheesy mod considering the performance gained for the amount of money shelled out. Nonetheless, cheesy mods happen with every car type. You have GTPs running around with swapped pulleys and real wheels and rubber, you have them running with stickers and chrome. On the other hand you have your choice of BMWs running around with fart cans. Without any real data, it is impossible to quantify one's observations on a larger scale/implication.


2. Actually, I-Drive is a brilliant way of getting rid of a huge number of look alike button that come with just about every navigation system.

You are right, it is brilliant for the sole reason listed above. What is not mentioned is the cost this brilliance brings. Many customers are having a hard time getting used to this i-Drive technology, and many tasks that used to be very simple became more complicated all of the sudden. So while it may be brilliant in reducing the number of buttons, again, it is no indication that it's an actual improvement for a consumer.


Compare the top of the line Mazda 6 to an Altima V6, a Camry V6 SE or even an Accord LX V6. The "real" Japanese competition is all bigger and more powerful.

Altima? You picked a very bad choice. The ONLY attractive point (or two) about V6 altima were its big size and powerful engine. The interior was made of such cheap plastic that for 2005 it had been redesigned.
Camry? Camry has nice interior plastics, sells well because of Toyota reliability, and is massively underpowered compared to competition. How is Camry more powerful than Mazda6, which is able to pull 15.0 sec 1/4 mi?

Bigger does not equal better. I bet that Mazda6 is bigger than BMW 3 series in every way. And that Camry has more interior room than BMW 5-series.

Actually, BMWs don't have hood ornaments. An understandable mistake, because you probably see very few BMWs or BMW owners at a Pontiac franchise.



I don't have to stay on the lot to see a BMW, do I? You may like to know that that little blue and white propeller on nearly EVERY BMW's hood is considered a hood ornament. It doesn't need to stand up to be one... :rolleyes:


1. Bank reps? If the only BMW owners you know are "lenders," you obviously don't get out much?

2. If "true car guys" are NASCAR fans, then yes there are more true car guys that own Pontiacs.

3. BMW owners don't make cheesy mods. Instead, they shell out for "Sport" and "Performance" packages. Just try finding a 325i that isn't a manual with the Sport Package.



1. Actually yes, the only people I know who own BMWs do so for the snob appeal, not because the car actually does something spectacular. The people I know who want a performance car buy a 350Z, an F body, a Vette, or a Boxster...not some sedan.

2. Lesse here...my father is a 50 year old VP and CFO of a $55 million dollar paper company. He is as much a car guy as anyone I know. He owns a 2002 Formula. I have never seen him watch a Nascar race in my life. Care to comment? :rolleyes: I bet you don't...Also, I suppose the Fleet Bank (now Bank of America :() VP of Operations for MA who purchased an '02 Firehawk Convertible from me is a real redneck too, eh? Or the 53 year old CPA who purchased the '99 Trans Am the other guy traded in? Indeed...some real low-lifes drive Pontiacs.

3. Yes, we all know that American car owners do all the cheesy stuff and the Beemers never are subjected to that. Tell that to the guy down the street here who just put an Indy car wing on his '98 328i...but hey, you must be right. You're redzed!!! :bow:



Actually, I-Drive is a brilliant way of getting rid of a huge number of look alike button that come with just about every navigation system.



:lol: :lol: Judging from this statement, I think its been established what to think of your general opinion on automotive design...in case anyone around here was still wondering!! :)

So, all-knowing redzed, what DO you drive? I'm very curious. Also, why did you buy it? Further, knowing its some sort of Z28, why the HELL do you keep it? I mean, with all these superior options out there...

And to prove to you I get out apparently far more than you do, I don't sit on a site full of cars I do not like and berate them. While someone here does need to get out more, it sure as hell is not me...its too bad a thread I started because I liked a couple cars has turned into a p!ssing contest. Like all the GTO whiners on here, I'll say the same to you. Go drive a G6, then complain. Until then?

For the love of God, shut the hell up...

Oh and by the way, while my father does not, I have watched NASCAR since I was about 3 years old. And yes, I drive a Pontiac, and am proud of my Grand Prix. Got a problem with that? I'd love to know why you think that is relevant, but I'm sure you'll have some drivel to prove that point to me, as well ;)

It warms my heart to see a little redzed ownage going on, especially the kind that forces him to reply with meaningless or diversionary responses.

:p j/p redzed.

Sort of.

Well, not really, I guess. :blah:

Does redzed live under a bridge? :lol:

I don't have to stay on the lot to see a BMW, do I? You may like to know that that little blue and white propeller on nearly EVERY BMW's hood is considered a hood ornament. It doesn't need to stand up to be one... :rolleyes:



1. Actually yes, the only people I know who own BMWs do so for the snob appeal, not because the car actually does something spectacular. The people I know who want a performance car buy a 350Z, an F body, a Vette, or a Boxster...not some sedan.

2. Lesse here...my father is a 50 year old VP and CFO of a $55 million dollar paper company. He is as much a car guy as anyone I know. He owns a 2002 Formula. I have never seen him watch a Nascar race in my life. Care to comment? :rolleyes: I bet you don't...Also, I suppose the Fleet Bank (now Bank of America :() VP of Operations for MA who purchased an '02 Firehawk Convertible from me is a real redneck too, eh? Or the 53 year old CPA who purchased the '99 Trans Am the other guy traded in? Indeed...some real low-lifes drive Pontiacs....

3. Yes, we all know that American car owners do all the cheesy stuff and the Beemers never are subjected to that. Tell that to the guy down the street here who just put an Indy car wing on his '98 328i...but hey, you must be right. You're redzed!!! :bow: ...[/QUOTE]

1. It's interesting you threw the Vette and F-body into a list with the Boxster and 350Z.

2. You compiled a list of old, wealthy dudes that own T/As. Heck, Barbara Bush owned a LS-1 T/A Convetible.

3. I suspect that your neighbor bought his 1998 Beemer used.




:lol: :lol: Judging from this statement, I think its been established what to think of your general opinion on automotive design...in case anyone around here was still wondering!! :)...

Hey, keep following the herd. Of course, we all know that the only thing a herd leaves behind is alot of.....

So, all-knowing redzed, what DO you drive? I'm very curious. Also, why did you buy it? Further, knowing its some sort of Z28, why the HELL do you keep it? I mean, with all these superior options out there...

I've owned my Z28 for half a decade, I bought it new and I'm keeping it for the foreseeable future. I just bought my new "winter-rat" and all I'll say is that it isn't a BMW. More on that later.


And to prove to you I get out apparently far more than you do, I don't sit on a site full of cars I do not like and berate them. While someone here does need to get out more, it sure as hell is not me...its too bad a thread I started because I liked a couple cars has turned into a p!ssing contest. Like all the GTO whiners on here, I'll say the same to you. Go drive a G6, then complain. Until then?...


For the love of God, shut the hell up...

1. I love my LS-1 F-body, I loved my B-body and I've always admired the long dead G-bodies. Sadly, GM doesn't have a single car in production that's worthy of my well hard earned cash. As an F-body fan, I want to see things turn around. Not because I'm a GM employ, or a GM stockholder, but because I'd like to see a decent domestic product that fits my needs.

2. Like any car salesman, Jason E must think a test drive, any test drive will sell any sucker on any product. I predicted the poor reception of the GTO before the actually car dropped. All a G6 test drive would prove is that GM has changed the name but not the game.

3. After giving a 2004 "Goat" a test, I sure didn't change my mind, it just confirmed that buyers in the $33K price range are more perceptive than Lutz thought. A Pontiac salesman wouldn't admit it, of course, but 50 extra horsepower and a hood scoops won't fix the 2005 GTO.

I believe you should run for office...a bunch of claims with no substantiated facts...

-So what if the BMW guy bought it used? This proves what? The kid with the hopped-up GTP more than likely didn't buy it new either!
-So what if "old guys" bought the T/As, and Barbara Bush owned a T/A convertible? This proves my point...more than Nascar fans like Pontiacs. You helped me prove this one :)
-You ignore the fact I sell cars one day a week, and it isn't my regular job. I'm not your typical sales schmuck, and if you don't think the GTO is a great driving car, then you probably are alone with your opinion. I love how you use quotes around Goat, and ignore the fact the car is truer to its original heritage than any retro rod on the market today. The GTO was always a big, comfortable, understated, fast car. It was not a pony car, and looked not much different than a Le Mans, did it? The fact it looks a lot like a Grand Prix should not surprise anyone.
-I'm glad to hear you bought a new car. I hope it fulfills your wildest dreams. I also hope you post more on a website devoted to that particular car.
-Indeed, the herd hates iDrive. If I followed the herd, would I own a white and orange Camaro?

Just like a politician...a lot of hot air floating through the breeze. My apologies again to board regulars for the ridiculousness of this post. Somehow, I just can't seem to let redzed's comments go unchecked :D

Totally offtopic... but Jason, I swear I've seen your Z around here, in fact, I thought I saw it the other day on Route 20 in Westfield. Been making trips to Regency's to put them in their place? ;p As far as I know there's only one of those anniversary Zs around in this area...

To make an on-topic contribution to this thread, I plan on test driving a G6 as soon as Regency (our Pontiac dealer in Westfield) gets one in that I want to look at. I've been impressed so far by what I've seen, but I'd have to actually drive it to form a real opinion.

It very well could have been me. There are three other 30ths around here...one is a hardtop AT that's been for sale at various dealers 3 times since I bought mine, and a convertible 30th just showed up. Finally, there is a 30th SS convertible running around...sold by Suburban Auto Outlet 2 years ago, some blonde bought it and I last saw it in July at a Sunoco station in Agawam with no plates on it, a bent antenna and several quarter-sized dings in the RR fender :( A 1 of 136 car deserves better!!!! So there are a few others, but mine is the only 30th t-top I have seen around here, ever...it was sold new at Central. I bought it used from Medeiros in 2001, but Central was nice enough to throw the invoice my way :D

Feel free to stop by Fedor Olds Pontiac over in Easthampton on a Saturday if you wanna drive a G6...we have a GT in the showroom but I have a cheapie base model outside if you wanna drive it...

One final thing for redzed. He talks about how following the herd is bad, right? And indeed, BMW broke the mold with iDrive, and it has bit them ever since. Know what? He also pointed out GM will be the only carmaker with OHV engines after the Taurus dies. Apparently when GM doesn't follow the herd, its bad though?? :D OHV may be dated and iDrive may be something special, but at least I can change the radio station in my G6 to cover up that ghastly valvetrain clatter :D

It wasn't a convertible, and I was driving in the 'bird, so I couldn't hceck to see if it was T-tops or not (I was driving my Red 97' Firebird). I make notes of all the F-bodies I see (there's a 2002 Red SS for sale on Wilbraham road in Spfld). I've seen a white 30th Z around a few times last year too...

How has the general G6 reception been? I take it you're not able to share preorder numbers or anything, but I was yawning over the Grand Am for a few years and when the Bird gives up the ghost, whether or not there's a fifth gen will be suspect, and I would like a new car, so I am seriously looking at Pontiac's sedans (and maybe next year for a coupe).

To make an on-topic contribution to this thread, I plan on test driving a G6 as soon as Regency (our Pontiac dealer in Westfield) gets one in that I want to look at. I've been impressed so far by what I've seen, but I'd have to actually drive it to form a real opinion.

Do yourself a favor, and read what C&D and R&T had to say about the G6. Then go out, drive a Passat GL, a Nissan Altima SE V6, or perhaps even an Infiniti G35 in base trim. Try a Camry/Accord even. If you can't find a better car by the time you hit the Poncho dealer...

Do yourself a favor, and read what C&D and R&T had to say about the G6. Then go out, drive a Passat GL, a Nissan Altima SE V6, or perhaps even an Infiniti G35 in base trim. Try a Camry/Accord even. If you can't find a better car by the time you hit the Poncho dealer...I can't remember, in all this confusion, redzed: Have you driven the G6 yet? Or did you just "read what C&D and R&T had to say"? Of course, what I've seen in C&D and R&T were brief drives, not full road/track tests...

A G35?! Yeah, good luck getting one of those for a G6 price... kefkafloyd, after you drive the G35, go check out the LS430 too...

I'm pretty sure the G6 competes with the Accord/Camry/Altima/Mazda 6, not the G35/3 Series/C-Class/A4. :blah:

I believe you should run for office...a bunch of claims with no substantiated facts...

[QUOTE=Jason E]-So what if the BMW guy bought it used? This proves what? The kid with the hopped-up GTP more than likely didn't buy it new either!

I'll bet that the 328i spent alot more for what he got than the "hopped-up" GTP kid. Them Beemers got resale value.

-So what if "old guys" bought the T/As, and Barbara Bush owned a T/A convertible? This proves my point...more than Nascar fans like Pontiacs. You helped me prove this one :)

Yup, there probably more Nascar fans among the ranks of the Pontiac faithful. I agree, so what are we talking about?

-You ignore the fact I sell cars one day a week, and it isn't my regular job. I'm not your typical sales schmuck, and if you don't think the GTO is a great driving car, then you probably are alone with your opinion. I love how you use quotes around Goat, and ignore the fact the car is truer to its original heritage than any retro rod on the market today. The GTO was always a big, comfortable, understated, fast car. It was not a pony car, and looked not much different than a Le Mans, did it? The fact it looks a lot like a Grand Prix should not surprise anyone.

1. The GTO doesn't have as much character as the Ram-Air "Batmobile" T/As.

2. The Catera was just about as good to drive as the GTO - drivetrain aside the Opel-build Caddy had a great chassis.

3. Like the Catera, the GTO is something of a sales "underacheiver." Do you really think that the styling was the only reason for both cars failing to move units?

4. Just how many GTOs have you sold?


-I'm glad to hear you bought a new car. I hope it fulfills your wildest dreams. I also hope you post more on a website devoted to that particular car.

Thanks ever so much.

-Indeed, the herd hates iDrive. If I followed the herd, would I own a white and orange Camaro?

Good point, although plaid seats were really popular in Mercedes Taxi cabs a few years back. Has Jason E ever worked a taxi-driver in Berlin?


Just like a politician...a lot of hot air floating through the breeze. My apologies again to board regulars for the ridiculousness of this post. Somehow, I just can't seem to let redzed's comments go unchecked :D

Yup, and I barely touched on the topic of plaid seats.

The plaid seat Mercedes comment has me slightly confused...but then again, I really don't much care anyways. And how in the world did we go from talking about Pontiacs having a "Nascar," redneck appeal (as you seem to feel) to discussing BMW resale value? I think you know what the Nascar reference was to, seeing as how you brought it up! You tried implying Pontiac enthusiasts were somehow a lower-grade, Nascar-watching bunch who wouldn't know a good car if it ran them over. Your comment that I don't get too many BMW's on my lot implied they, as well as their owners, are a cut above. So redzed...I don't know, what are YOU talking about????

We were only allocated 3 GTOs all year, and all 3 are long gone...2 of which sold BEFORE the wonderful $3,500 rebates. Exactly why do you ask? Its a great car. Go find someone else who drove one who thinks they are not. I've driven a Catera. Saying a GTO is like a Catera is like saying a Contour drives like a Jaguar X-Type, or a Malibu drives like a 9-3 Aero. It might be based off the same basic underpinnings, but the experience is entirely different.

At this point, I am having trouble figuring out why you're still arguing, quite frankly. I like the Cobalt and the G6...a lot. I have driven a G6 and walked away with a great opinion of a well-done car. I am not swayed because Car and Driver said the foreign competition was more "fun to drive" because they dial in more oversteer. Even THEY admit the normal drivers for these cars will never experience the difference. Car and Driver walked away with a lot of nice things to say about the car. Their "numb" steering comment will not apply to the GTP, as it will have hydraulic steering. I also sincerely doubt the normal G6 buyer will have ANY idea whatsoever that their "inferior" OHV engine doesn't sound as smooth over 5000 RPMs. What they WILL notice is the superior gas mileage the engine offers, however.

96Camaro, no, he has not bothered to drive one, but is making a feeble attempt at being an armchair quarterback here, doing little more than reciting magazine articles. I think his "following the herd" comment really applies more to him...

Lol, for a while I was a gm follower, and one thing I learned is quite the number of GM loyalists are the same as Bush backers....

they cant see through the Bs.

Yes, the G6 looks great, and it is a huge step above the grand am..... but most the g6's i see sticker above 25k, are they fuggin nuts? quite a bit of them are even in the 27k range. This is Acura TSX, Nissan Maxima, Loaded Passat territory.

Car salesmen will sell anything to anyone, but if you are spending $27,000 hard earned dollars, why teh fug in the right mind would you spend it on a grand am replacement? at least spend it on a grand prix, or do yourself a favor and go across the street to any import brand. Until the rebates kick in on it, lol, forget about it.

So I guess if Pontiac makes a car equal to the TSX, Passat, etc...they cant charge the same? Is there a law against that? Has Pontiac dropped to such a level people cannot understand why Pontiac would price a car in such a range?

Wow...thought Id never see the day.

Lol, for a while I was a gm follower, and one thing I learned is quite the number of GM loyalists are the same as Bush backers....

they cant see through the Bs.

Car salesmen will sell anything to anyone, but if you are spending $27,000 hard earned dollars, why teh fug in the right mind would you spend it on a grand am replacement? at least spend it on a grand prix, or do yourself a favor and go across the street to any import brand. Until the rebates kick in
on it, lol, forget about it.

1) I'm a GM follower, but hate George Bush with a passion...what does that make me? Someone who only sees through certain BS?? Gimme a break...

2) Have you driven a G6 yet? Hell, did you even read the damn post? A $27,000 G6 is with EVERYTHING...6 disc, chrome wheels, leather, a FIFTEEN HUNDRED DOLLAR SUNROOF (something the GP doesn't offer...does it???), On-Star, etc. Big Al just made the point...and I'll leave it at that. Sure, it is possible to price a G6 over a more basic GP...when was that NOT possible with ANY more basic Grand Am variant??? Have you checked the price on a GP lately, or ANY new car in its class for that matter? Did you know the smaller Mazda 6s with fewer options tops $26k itself when you add an automatic to it?

3) Nice comment about car salesmen :) Which also proves my point there is no way you bothered to read the post, because for me its a side job on Saturdays...an extension of my car hobby, if you will. I may be a lot of things, but one thing I am not is biased towards GM. I am biased towards American products because I'm American, and I believe people have a duty to help support their own. If you anyone here thinks I'm wrong, I really and truly don't care...

GM has its flaws, but what car company does not? The never-ending line of crap about how wonderful imports are and how crappy American cars are will end someday...I just know it. Go drive a G6, and THEN tell me how "superior" the imports are. C&D gave the car a very good review overall.

You can wait for the rebates, but something tells me you weren't interested in one anyways! :)

Yes, the G6 looks great, and it is a huge step above the grand am..... but most the g6's i see sticker above 25k, are they fuggin nuts? quite a bit of them are even in the 27k range. This is Acura TSX, Nissan Maxima, Loaded Passat territory.

Car salesmen will sell anything to anyone, but if you are spending $27,000 hard earned dollars, why teh fug in the right mind would you spend it on a grand am replacement? at least spend it on a grand prix, or do yourself a favor and go across the street to any import brand. Until the rebates kick in on it, lol, forget about it.

Thank you.

You do realize you can take a "base" 3-series, which starts around, what? $29k, and optionit out to be in the low $40's, right? And that's not even getting into the M3.

I really don't understand this issue.

For as long as I can remember, you coudl load up a model "under" another in any given lineup and have it price out higher than the base price of the next model up...

What's the issue with that?

With G6's going pretty fast, or so reports say, I dont think we will see much in rebates. Much like the Nox, the G6 will sell with little to no cash on the hood. I belive that the Altima has 2k on the hood.
I think that the G6 is a deffinate turn around and all thoes who are usualy going to pick up a grand am, will be very VERY surprised by this car. And for the same price, they get a much better car with much better interior fit and finish, as well as much better styling with NO body cladding! Higher hp engine then the GA, and a much neater package all together. A deffinate improvement.

I actually saw a G6 on the road today for the first time. If Pontiac can get people into the dealerships, this car isnt gonna have problems selling if it is priced with the competition. The pictures do not do this car justice. The thing has the shape and stance of an Acura TSX. Very sporty looking sedan. And it was conveniently located two cars behind a silver Grand Am. It looks like the cars were built by two different manufacturers.

You do realize you can take a "base" 3-series, which starts around, what? $29k, and optionit out to be in the low $40's, right? And that's not even getting into the M3.


The uncomfortable fact of the matter is that there is pricing overlap between lots of dull, mainstream products and some very exciting near-luxury cars. Who's smarter, the guy who shells out nearly $28K for a loaded up, entry level mid-sized G6 or the dude who lays out the same amount of money for a base 325i? When it comes time to trade in a couple of years, Poncho man is going to have the rude awakening.

The uncomfortable fact of the matter is that there is pricing overlap between lots of dull, mainstream products and some very exciting near-luxury cars. Who's smarter, the guy who shells out nearly $28K for a loaded up, entry level mid-sized G6 or the dude who lays out the same amount of money for a base 325i? When it comes time to trade in a couple of years, Poncho man is going to have the rude awakening.


Or you could look at it from the side of the 3-4 years that the guy owns the G6, he gets the enjoyment and benefits of all the equipment he GETS with the G6, that he does NOT with the 325i.

So, in the long run, ya, the BMW is most likely gonna have a higher resale value... but you pay for that in equipemt you do not get that you do in the G6...

Resale value isn't everything... and even if the difference in resale is $2k, that still doesn't even put it CLOSE to what it would cost to get comperable equipment on the 325i.

Also, back to earth reality, hardly anyone buys a stripped 325i. So your little threory and rant kind of blows up on you.

Heck, unless you pay a PREMIUM for PAINT, you can choose from Black, White, or Red... that's it.

The lowest price BMW is the 325i that sells for $29,995 with NO options. It has stupid "leatherette" seats even. I bet you can't find one with no options at your BMW dealer. Although I bet you could get a good deal on a 2004 325i they are trying to get rid of. But you'll have to talk them down from a sticker of 33 or 34K, so I bet you still couldn't touch the $27,000 for the Pontiac. Also, the Pontiac has 240 hp vs the Beemer's 184. Another thing is BMW makes a fortune off of their options because things like leather seats, power seats, upgraded audio, auto trannies, sunroofs, sport packages, etc. are all extra cost options. It seems kind of stupid that you would have to pay extra for leather seats and color choice in a luxury car.

And redzed you fail to mention that the 3 series is a much smaller car than the G6. The back seat and trunk in the G6 are significantly larger than the Beemer.

I love the fact I can sit back and watch everyone else rip him a new one while all the points I made went unchallenged :) Save your breath guys...no matter how many points you own him on, he'll ignore them and bring up some other crap...

The lowest price BMW is the 325i that sells for $29,995 with NO options..

Actually, the 2004 325i was $28,495, but for 2005 you get a "free" moonroof that used to cost $1,050.


It has stupid "leatherette" seats even.

Actually, "leatherette" wears a heck of alot better than some of the crappy, thin, split "leather" that you find in domestic cars.

I bet you can't find one with no options at your BMW dealer.

Actually, your BMW dealer can order you anything you want and have within 12 to 13 days. That's better than the 6 months it take to order a Mercedes or the "4-6 weeks" for the domestics.

Although I bet you could get a good deal on a 2004 325i they are trying to get rid of. But you'll have to talk them down from a sticker of 33 or 34K, so I bet you still couldn't touch the $27,000 for the Pontiac. Also, the Pontiac has 240 hp vs the Beemer's 184. Another thing is BMW makes a fortune off of their options because things like leather seats, power seats, upgraded audio, auto trannies, sunroofs, sport packages, etc. are all extra cost options. It seems kind of stupid that you would have to pay extra for leather seats and color choice in a luxury car.

And redzed you fail to mention that the 3 series is a much smaller car than the G6. The back seat and trunk in the G6 are significantly larger than the Beemer.

1. GM's leather isn't exactly BMW quality.

2. Those aging 4-speed slushboxes aren't worth much, either.

3. The G6's "panarama" roof costs more than a similar (if superior) sunroof on a Mercedes C-class. Every 3-series sedan gets a standard conventional sunroof anyway.

4. The cheapo power seats on a domestic are actually worth less to me than the comfy manually adjusting seats in most European makes.

Resale value isn't everything... and even if the difference in resale is $2k, that still doesn't even put it CLOSE to what it would cost to get comperable equipment on the 325i.



I have yet to see a BMW that looses half of it's value in the first year. Tell all of the folks who are thousands of dollar "upside down" that "resale value isn't everything."

Actually, the 2004 325i was $28,495, but for 2005 you get a "free" moonroof that used to cost $1,050.




Actually, "leatherette" wears a heck of alot better than some of the crappy, thin, split "leather" that you find in domestic cars.



Actually, your BMW dealer can order you anything you want and have within 12 to 13 days. That's better than the 6 months it take to order a Mercedes or the "4-6 weeks" for the domestics.



1. GM's leather isn't exactly BMW quality.

2. Those aging 4-speed slushboxes aren't worth much, either.

3. The G6's "panarama" roof costs more than a similar (if superior) sunroof on a Mercedes C-class. Every 3-series sedan gets a standard conventional sunroof anyway.

4. The cheapo power seats on a domestic are actually worth less to me than the comfy manually adjusting seats in most European makes.

It's so funny. He takes every valid point, and just says that that's the way HE likes it anyway. Leatherette actually wears better, blah, blah, blah...if these imports had square wheels, he'd find some half-baked reason why he would say he likes those more too.

Why don't you go join a BMW forum? I'm sure they'd welcome you there to blow smoke up their arses. :eek:

Actually, the 2004 325i was $28,495, but for 2005 you get a "free" moonroof that used to cost $1,050.

I still bet you won't be able to find a stripper 2004 BMW with a sticker of $28,495 to get a good deal on. And you fail to mention how much roomier the Pontiac is. I think the BMW is a rip off considering how much room you get. It doesn't give you any real space advantage in the rear seat or trunk versus a Civic. So basically you can buy a Civic for half as much money and just as much utility. But then again, that Civic doesn't drive like the Beemer.


Actually, "leatherette" wears a heck of alot better than some of the crappy, thin, split "leather" that you find in domestic cars.

I'll agree with you that leatherette wears a heck of a lot better than ANY leather. I detail cars and have seen 15 year old Mercedez with leatherette that still looks showroom new. The leather in BMW's and Jags don't wear as well as leatherette. But the stuff doesn't have the nice feel of leather. My mom had a Volvo station wagon with that crappy leatherette that would give you a 1st degree burn on a hot day and frost bite on a cold winter day.



Actually, your BMW dealer can order you anything you want and have within 12 to 13 days. That's better than the 6 months it take to order a Mercedes or the "4-6 weeks" for the domestics.
I believe BMW's ordering system is the best in the industry, and very cool. But once they redesign and screw up the 3-series like they did with the rest of their car line, who will want to even buy one of their cars?



1. GM's leather isn't exactly BMW quality.
The stuff in Cadillacs is up to snuff. And Cadillacs have the best smell out of any car out there.

2. Those aging 4-speed slushboxes aren't worth much, either.
At least GM doesn't have the nerve to charge you $1275 for a auto tranny. And the 4 speed auto is a good shifting, proven design that is very reliable. Its only downside is the lack of an extra ratio.


3. The G6's "panarama" roof costs more than a similar (if superior) sunroof on a Mercedes C-class. Every 3-series sedan gets a standard conventional sunroof anyway.
We weren't even talking about a Mercedes's crap car(according to the automotive press). The three paned sunroof provides a much larger opening than the BMW's. And it has that intangible cool factor.

4. The cheapo power seats on a domestic are actually worth less to me than the comfy manually adjusting seats in most European makes.
Okay, you have fun finding that ideal driving position adjusting your manual seat while in heavy traffic.

4. The cheapo power seats on a domestic are actually worth less to me than the comfy manually adjusting seats in most European makes.

Oh boy...ladies and gentlemen...the best owning of redzed yet...

Actually, redzed, you would be incorrect with the assessment that your european seats are so much better, as applied to this topic, the G6. That is because the seats employed in the G6, whether GT, GTP or base model, are made by Faucette (sp?), a French firm...

Whom ALSO MAKES SEATS FOR BMW, PORSCHE AND MERCEDES....

:Owned:

I have never so clearly been able to use this on anyone quite like with you, right now. This is something even YOU can't talk around, or spin your way :D

Actually, redzed, you would be incorrect with the assessment that your european seats are so much better, as applied to this topic, the G6. That is because the seats employed in the G6, whether GT, GTP or base model, are made by Faucette (sp?), a French firm...


The Malibu also has the "French" seats, but you sure wouldn't know to sit on them. Personally, I've yet to see a mainstream domestic car that can beat a Mexican-built VW for seat comfort and adjustability.

honestly redzed, have you driven every single car that has come out for the last 10 years?

Oh boy...ladies and gentlemen...the best owning of redzed yet...

Actually, redzed, you would be incorrect with the assessment that your european seats are so much better, as applied to this topic, the G6. That is because the seats employed in the G6, whether GT, GTP or base model, are made by Faucette (sp?), a French firm...

Whom ALSO MAKES SEATS FOR BMW, PORSCHE AND MERCEDES....

:Owned:

I have never so clearly been able to use this on anyone quite like with you, right now. This is something even YOU can't talk around, or spin your way :D
:lol: Oh my... ~Refills popcorn~

I take it back redzed...its now official...

You are right. I am wrong. My facts are wrong. I am an idiot. Thank you for putting me in my place. Save your popcorn, Mecca...

redzed is smarter than EVERYONE here...

Personally, I've yet to...

are actually worth less to me

I am not sure if you learned anything about statistics and case studies, but case studies or testimonials are worth jack. You are using inductive reasoning based on... your own feelings? :rolleyes:

S'rong wichoo, man?

crap guys, you really are stuck to your guns.... opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Everyone has a right to their opinion what they like for what. Me personally, I would never spend so much money on a domestic to loose their value in a 2 year period. Domesitcs you buy in a few years, after they took the biggest hit.

I dont think anyone here is arguing that the G6 is not a great car, the arguement is, in my opinion it is way over priced for what I can buy instead.

It is the same reason you dont buy a hyundai over a nissan, toyota, or what not, no one says the hyundai is a bad car, they made strives and give you perhaps the best value for your money, but really who wants to spend $30k on a hyundai? after all it is a hyundai. Same thing here, in my mind, i would not spend so much on a g6 where for the insane money they are charging you can get a better car, with better resale, brand recognition for nearly the same money. Same as GTO, no one says it is a bad car..... just too over priced. If people didnt agree.... there would not be rebates on the car.

Ok, this was bugging me so i went and did a comparo between G6 GT and a Acura TSX

Acura tsx with auto 5 speed 27k
Base g6 with auto 26k

Acura has on g6....

Warranty & Service Interval 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Basic Warranty Time (Months) 48 36
Basic Warranty Miles 50000 36000
Powertrain Warranty Time (Months) 48 36
Powertrain Warranty Miles 50000 36000
Rust Warranty Time (Months) 60 72
Rust Warranty Miles Unlimited 100000
Extended Service Interval Standard Standard

Much better warranty......

COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Automatic Climate Control Standard Not Available
Power Windows Standard Standard
Power Door Locks Standard Standard
Adjustable Steering Column Standard Standard
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls Standard Optional
Air Filtration System Standard Not Available
Cruise Control Standard Standard
Homelink Remote System Standard Not Available


Seats 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Leather Trimmed Seats Standard Optional
Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel Standard Optional
Front Bucket Seat Standard Standard
Power Driver Seat Standard Standard
Front Heated Seat Standard Optional
Front Adjustable Seat Height Standard Standard
Fold-Down Rear Seatback Standard Standard
Fold-Down Rear Center Armrest Standard Not Available
Front Adjustable Lumbar Support Standard Standard

Lighting 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
High-Intensity Discharge Headlights Standard Not Available
Automatic Headlights Standard Standard
Map Light Standard Not Listed
Glass & Mirrors 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Rear Window Defroster Standard Standard
Power Mirrors Standard Standard
Vanity Mirror Not Listed Standard
Illuminated Vanity Mirrors Standard Standard
Instrumentation 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Tachometer Standard Standard
Outside Temperature Gauge Standard Not Listed
Maintenance Interval Indicator Standard Not Listed
Remotes & Releases 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Remote Trunk Release Standard Standard
Remote Fuel Filler Door Release Standard Not Available
Keyless Entry System Standard Standard
Storage 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Cargo Net Accessory Standard
Door Storage Standard Standard
Seatback Storage Standard Standard
Armrest Storage Standard Standard
Console Storage Standard Standard
Coin Box Standard Not Available
Beverage Holders Standard Not Listed
Sunroof/Removable Top 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Moonroof Standard Optional


Amongs that Standard HID's, side curtain airbags, moonroof, cd changer.... all standard.... so the question is..... who in the right mind would fork extra money over for the G6 unless it came with rebates?

Ok, this was bugging me so i went and did a comparo between G6 GT and a Acura TSX

Acura tsx with auto 5 speed 27k
Base g6 with auto 26k

Acura has on g6....

Warranty & Service Interval 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Basic Warranty Time (Months) 48 36
Basic Warranty Miles 50000 36000
Powertrain Warranty Time (Months) 48 36
Powertrain Warranty Miles 50000 36000
Rust Warranty Time (Months) 60 72
Rust Warranty Miles Unlimited 100000
Extended Service Interval Standard Standard

Much better warranty......

COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Automatic Climate Control Standard Not Available
Power Windows Standard Standard
Power Door Locks Standard Standard
Adjustable Steering Column Standard Standard
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls Standard Optional
Air Filtration System Standard Not Available
Cruise Control Standard Standard
Homelink Remote System Standard Not Available


Seats 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Leather Trimmed Seats Standard Optional
Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel Standard Optional
Front Bucket Seat Standard Standard
Power Driver Seat Standard Standard
Front Heated Seat Standard Optional
Front Adjustable Seat Height Standard Standard
Fold-Down Rear Seatback Standard Standard
Fold-Down Rear Center Armrest Standard Not Available
Front Adjustable Lumbar Support Standard Standard

Lighting 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
High-Intensity Discharge Headlights Standard Not Available
Automatic Headlights Standard Standard
Map Light Standard Not Listed
Glass & Mirrors 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Rear Window Defroster Standard Standard
Power Mirrors Standard Standard
Vanity Mirror Not Listed Standard
Illuminated Vanity Mirrors Standard Standard
Instrumentation 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Tachometer Standard Standard
Outside Temperature Gauge Standard Not Listed
Maintenance Interval Indicator Standard Not Listed
Remotes & Releases 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Remote Trunk Release Standard Standard
Remote Fuel Filler Door Release Standard Not Available
Keyless Entry System Standard Standard
Storage 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Cargo Net Accessory Standard
Door Storage Standard Standard
Seatback Storage Standard Standard
Armrest Storage Standard Standard
Console Storage Standard Standard
Coin Box Standard Not Available
Beverage Holders Standard Not Listed
Sunroof/Removable Top 2004 Acura TSX 5-speed AT 2005 Pontiac G6 GT
Moonroof Standard Optional


Amongs that Standard HID's, side curtain airbags, moonroof, cd changer.... all standard.... so the question is..... who in the right mind would fork extra money over for the G6 unless it came with rebates?
Just curious, as I don't know, but what engine comes in the exact TSX that you are specing? The G6 you are specing has the optional powertrain.

On a side note, since we have several regular Canadian members.... can we refrain from the use of DOMESTIC? American, Canadian, Japanesse.... it isn't that hard to just say American.

Ricers have burned me out on that word.

Acura tsx with auto 5 speed 27k
Base g6 with auto 26k


what?!? Base G6 with auto at 26K? where have you been looking?

Canadian prices: base G6 with V6 and AUTO = $25,700 / GT trim $28, 615, including destination
Acura TSX auto = $35,750

American prices: base G6 with V6 and AUTO = $21,300 / GT trim $23, 925
Acura TSX auto = $26,490

That's a difference of $10,000 CDN and $5,000 USD between G6 and TSX.

So I guess if Pontiac makes a car equal to the TSX, Passat, etc...they cant charge the same? Is there a law against that? Has Pontiac dropped to such a level people cannot understand why Pontiac would price a car in such a range?

Wow...thought Id never see the day.

I'll admit that i've never driven a G6, but the thought of it being "equal" to a TSX isn't registering with me. I've driven the TSX, and it has impressed me on all levels. Is the new G6 THAT good? Personally, given the same price, i'd opt for the TSX over the G6 without so much as a test-drive or a second thought.

I think decades of cheap low-quality pontiacs have messed with our perceptions to the point where EVEN if the G6 was twice the car the TSX is/was, we'd still expect a sticker 3-4k dollars cheaper.

Back to the topic on hand...To be perfectly honest, the only GM family car that has me impressed is the Cobalt coupe. That is one car that i would actually cross-shop with the import competition. The g6, while a definite improvement over the GA, does nothing for me and the Malibu, Imp, MC aren't even remotely attractive to me as a consumer. So the Cobalt definitly has my attention, but the others really don't.

Just found this under redzeds profile and found it ammusing.... "Interests: GM cars in general". Hehe. Sure shows:D.

I'll admit that i've never driven a G6, but the thought of it being "equal" to a TSX isn't registering with me. I've driven the TSX, and it has impressed me on all levels. Is the new G6 THAT good? Personally, given the same price, i'd opt for the TSX over the G6 without so much as a test-drive or a second thought.



I haven't driven a TSX....but I've driven it's big brother Accord. The G6 is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't drive as nice as an Accord....not even close.

Sorry, I wish I could tell you otherwise....but I just can't. Maybe the GXP version might approach an Accord...we'll see.

The G6 feels more like a Stratus sedan.

crap guys, you really are stuck to your guns.... opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Everyone has a right to their opinion what they like for what. Me personally, I would never spend so much money on a domestic to loose their value in a 2 year period. Domesitcs you buy in a few years, after they took the biggest hit.

Thanks for the perspective, although I would argue that a new LS-1 F-body was too good to pass up at the time and the resale values were high enough to favor a new purchase as well. Maybe special (and I really mean "special") domestic products can escape the cycle of depreciation and mediocrity.

I dont think anyone here is arguing that the G6 is not a great car, the arguement is, in my opinion it is way over priced for what I can buy instead.

It is the same reason you dont buy a hyundai over a nissan, toyota, or what not, no one says the hyundai is a bad car, they made strives and give you perhaps the best value for your money, but really who wants to spend $30k on a hyundai? after all it is a hyundai. Same thing here, in my mind, i would not spend so much on a g6 where for the insane money they are charging you can get a better car, with better resale, brand recognition for nearly the same money. Same as GTO, no one says it is a bad car..... just too over priced. If people didnt agree.... there would not be rebates on the car.

I'm not sure that they still build truly "bad" cars anymore. On a qualitative level, I'm sure the G6 is far better than the outgoing Grand Am, and it might even be better than the 2004 Grand Prix. On a absolute level, it isn't much of a car for $27,590. Similarly, the GTO was utterly appalling at $33K, and in many respects is a far worse car than a 2002 Trans Am that was similarly priced.

Of course, it would have been easy to have been "charitable" if the GM had shaved about $5K off the price of the G6. Even the crude 2004 GTO might have been credible at a price competitive to that of a Mustang GT.

Similarly, the GTO was utterly appalling at $33K, and in many respects is a far worse car than a 2002 Trans Am that was similarly priced.

.
.
.

Even the crude 2004 GTO might have been credible at a price competitive to that of a Mustang GT.

OMG. This is perhaps the most ridiculous thing you have said yet. Like the GTO, or hate it... saying that it is "crude" compared to a 2002 Firebird or a 2004 Mustang is like saying Waterford Crystal is "crude" compared to a 6 pack of plastic mugs picked up at Wal*Mart.

I love the 4th Gen F-Bodies... my 99 Z28 was one of my favorite cars, but it is no where even close to being as refined as my 2004 GTO...

These statements are the pinnacle of showing your ignorance on the subject. :o

Similarly, the GTO was utterly appalling at $33K, and in many respects is a far worse car than a 2002 Trans Am that was similarly priced.

Of course, it would have been easy to have been "charitable" if the GM had shaved about $5K off the price of the G6. Even the crude 2004 GTO might have been credible at a price competitive to that of a Mustang GT.


You have your head up your a*rse farther than I have ever imagined. There is a night and day difference in the refinement and quality between the GTO and the 2004 Mustang GT, and the Trans Am. Go drive a GTO and stop this keyboard test driving.

I have driven a GTO and must say it is one of the best interiors GM has come out with. Better than every Cadillac except the new XLR and STS. Everything looks and feels top notch. I like the seats better than what they put in BMWs Lexus, and Mercedes. And it is so stylish with the red gauges, red leather, red stitching, and silver accents.

And I thought 33k was a fair price for the GTO. It is faster and more practical than the 350z, G35, S2000, and RX-8, all which have a similar sticker price. And the GTO defiently has a nicer interior than these cars.(although the RX-8 is pretty cool) The reason it never caught on in my opinion was the style. The jellybean look was all played out about 6 years ago with the Grand Prix coupe

Similarly, the GTO was utterly appalling at $33K, and in many respects is a far worse car than a 2002 Trans Am that was similarly priced.

Of course, it would have been easy to have been "charitable" if the GM had shaved about $5K off the price of the G6. Even the crude 2004 GTO might have been credible at a price competitive to that of a Mustang GT. How's that? Could you speak into my good ear? Someone put this line of crap in his or her sig, please. "Crude 2004 GTO"?! Well, that puts you in agreement with just about - ah - no one. I for one get tired of people ripping on the F-cars as if they had no modern redeeming qualities (which is not true), but in terms of which is the better overall CAR, there is no contest between a GTO and a Firebird. Fit and finish, refinement, ride, interior quality, passenger space, and so on. Yeah, in outright performance numbers, an LS1 F-car will eek out a win over an LS1 GTO. But for real world use? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The GTO is like an enlarged 3-series with a big V8 up front. Or a 5 series coupe. It drives like a European car with a big American engine.

This thread should be closed and enshrined now, as redzed has made possibly the most ignorant post of the year...

:lol: :no:

How is it every automotive rag so far has cited that the G6 provides an excellent value, and the only people I have seen knock it so far are, I don't know, a handful of people on this site??? I mean, I thought Car and Driver was hard to please...

Because you have yet to validly defend yourself against any facts I posted above, I sure as hell do not expect you to start now, redzed. But I ask you...how is the GTO a bad value? Does the GTO not come with more equipment than your fabled 325i? For less money? Is it not bigger? More comfortable? Faster? As high of quality inside? Again, BIGGER?????????? For christ sakes, a $33k car the size of a Civic BETTER be high quality...

But that's no matter guys...redzed is right. I wonder where that insightful post is he was bragging about beginning, about his wonderful new purchase and that "we wouldn't like" his post. Like that's a surprise...

Like I said, all bullsh!t and no substance...as I mentioned before you got truly asinine, public office is most certainly in your future.

How is it every automotive rag so far has cited that the G6 provides an excellent value, and the only people I have seen knock it so far are, I don't know, a handful of people on this site??? I mean, I thought Car and Driver was hard to please...



http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=8686&page_number=1

Car and Drive on the G6's handling:

In our opinion, Pontiac made the unwitting mistake of bringing along a Mazda 6 s, a Honda Accord V-6, and a Nissan Altima 3.5SL. The move showed confidence in the G6, but the competition has lively, balanced handling that could be goaded into oversteer. Granted, the G6 will likely post better skidpad numbers than the Japanese cars, and most G6 drivers won't possess our driving habits, but the Pontiac lacks the chassis fluidity that makes the other cars involving. Steering feel is similarly dull. Pontiac claims it has resolved the vagaries of the electronic system, but the steering still gives no clue as to what the front tires are doing.

Car and Driver on the 3.5 liter OHV V6:

Although the Japanese competition packs powerful 24-valve V-6s, the G6 gets a pushrod 3.5-liter V-6. The 200-hp 3.5-liter has an excellent highway-fuel-economy rating—29 mpg—but it never feels strong. Part of the problem is the four-speed automatic; the gaps between the gears are inappropriately large. Engine revs drop precipitously at every shift, leaving you a desert away from the torque peak, which means you have to wait before you're back in the power band. There is a six-speed automatic on the horizon, part of the Ford/GM joint transmission venture, which should help matters significantly, but why do we always have to wait for the good stuff?.

I like the "never feels strong" part.

If you are patient and would like something a bit faster, Pontiac will offer the '06 GTP version of this car in the spring. It will differ from the GT by having 18-inch wheels shod with sticky summer tires (all-season tires will be a no-cost option), hydraulic power steering (our prototypes had electric power steering), stability control, an optional close-ratio six-speed manual, and a bored-out 240-hp version of the 3.5-liter engine, displacing 3.9 liters. Pontiac was kind enough to allow us to sample some early versions of the GTP, which felt like grippier GTs. The manual tranny works well, and the pedals are set perfectly for heel-and-toe downshifts. Still, the 3.9-liter does not feel much more powerful than the 3.5. Hopefully, production versions will feel like the full 240 horses are there.

1. Interesting how they're reverting to hydraulic power steering for the GTP. Could it be that the electronic setup isn't appropriate for a "performance" car?

2. "Still, the 3.9-liter does not feel much more powerful than the 3.5." Enough said.


Even with the front seat occupied by a six-foot-five staffer affectionately called Tall Dave, there is enough room for a nearly six-foot-tall editor behind him. However, anyone in the back seat over six feet will hit his or her head against the rear glass, a product of the rakish roofline.

If the G6 is just as lacking in rear headroom as the Grand Am, where's the improvement?


The G6 is not any cheaper than its Japanese competition, and that may keep shoppers from becoming Pontiac conquests. However, with incentives, the G6 would suddenly become a compelling alternative, much like the 6000STE was back in 1983.

I wonder what happened to the 6000STE. Between the rough ride, the huge price and the rotten MPG, it's no surprise that the STE "went away." The G6 is a far better car, but there again, what isn't these days?

Don't wanna talk about the "crude" GTO anymore, eh?

I love how you bounce back and forth from one thing to the other, simply ignoring the 98% of each post that totally rips everything you saw to shreads. :lol:

Don't wanna talk about the "crude" GTO anymore, eh?

I love how you bounce back and forth from one thing to the other, simply ignoring the 98% of each post that totally rips everything you saw to shreads. :lol:

Whether one if a big fan of the GTO or not, its value is unquestionable. And comparing its refinment levels to that of an f-bod or 04 mustang makes zero sense.

Hehehehehe...oh redzed, you didn't do something stupid like quote that article now, did you? See, you've proved my point that you SHOULD run for office. No, I mean it. You wouldn't happen to be a Bush advisor during your time between work and slamming cars, would-ja?? :D

I had a nice big fat response written out, then my stupid computer here at work crashed...grr. Anyways, looking back at the article...

1) The overall appearance had an "expensive aura" to it...justifying the price maybe? Oh wait...its more expensive than the competition, right? Nope...at the end, it says "Its not any cheaper than its competition." Now, that does not imply its MORE EXPENSIVE, right? But wait...your argument is that its too expensive...but its in line with its competition. Explain that one.

2) The backseat they said was ample for anyone UNDER SIX FEET TALL. Do you have any kids over 6 feet tall, red? Gee...I don't. No one I know does. Seems to me that in the family sedan market, not many people would...otherwise they'd buy a minivan or SUV for that big family. No, people who bought Grand Ams and Aleros from me were small families with small budgets with small kids...not people who needed to park Andre the Giant in the back. Otherwise, the article said buyers will be IMPRESSED with the back seat. Doesn't it say that? Explain to me then why you complain about the back seat. Also explain to me how the back seat of your beloved 3 series is so much better. Please. I beg of you.

3) The article says the car has a good, solid ride and a planted feel ON THE ROAD. They then complain it understeers on a race track. Redzed, how often do you drive on a race track? See, I drive back and forth to the office every day in my Grand Prix. I couldn't care less if a G6 plows in turns on a RACETRACK. Does that matter to me? No. Does it matter to 99.8% of target buyers? Highly doubtful. F body buyers, quite possible...but this is a G6 here. As a matter of fact, I bet if I surveyed every BMW owner I know (about 10-12), not one would even know what the term understeer even meant, let alone claim their Bimmer was superior due to its lack of it. I use the BMW analogy because hey, the 3 series is so much better, right? Explain this. Please.

4) The OHV engine is not as serene over 5k. To 99.8% of customers, does it matter? Not one bit. AS I SAID BEFORE (and you ignored), it gets "an impressive 29 MPG highway," per the article. Family sedan buyers care about that. Car and Driver, on a race track, complained the car did not feel as powerful. And yet, I can assure you a Mazda 6s with an AT (something I doubt they have ever tested) feels the same damn way due to lack of torque. Again, the AVERAGE OWNER WILL NEVER KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Average people are going to buy a G6. Hell, I probably will too someday. And no, despite loving cars, I don't give a crap either if its a little thrashy over 5k. Why? My cars pass 5k what, once a month? Case closed. I'll enjoy the smooth torque and the MPG, thanks very much. So explain WHY GM needs to spend more $$ on a factor that to Joe Car Buyer really is not a factor.

5) I never said Car and Driver praised EVERY ASPECT of the car. But they didn't walk away and say "this is a pile of crap" either. These guys are about the most import biased mag out there. They loved the old Protege while it sat forlorn on car lots. Why? Well, it was great ON THE TRACK. Who the hell cared? I'll quote the Road and Track article later. You see no point to buying the G6. I do.

So does Car and Driver. So take your spin of the truth and cram it...and DON'T try to twist things that can be disproved. Do me a favor and ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR A CHANGE. Otherwise? Darth said it best. It seems like what you say is just sh!t floating in the wind...

this is what redzed is

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame60.html

this is what redzed is

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame60.html

or maybe

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame47.html