Which heads? LS1, LS6, or 6.0L?

Well, sitting infront of me is a TR224/224 cam with stiffer springs and pushrods. Before i attempt to install this i was wondering what would be a good head upgrade? I would love to make 500 to the wheels all motor. cam only should take me to 400. MY question is, which set of heads would suit me best? The heads will be fully ported and polished as well. I would like to use my springs and pushrods i just bought as well.

p.s i plan on running a 100 shot in the future. Thanks in advance for ur inputs.

It would be nice to see cam specs including valve timing and lift along with
flow charts for the heads.

Without seeing the specs, I'd bet the LS1 heads are more than enough
for that camshaft.

As for the springs, you did buy the correct type for the lobe profile and
application of the camshaft correct?

its thunder racings cam setup. Everything is matched and should work out fine. 224/224 duration. 568 lift on both intake and exhaust. 112 LSA.

Looks like a good LS1 Engine Tech topic..... moving it there.

LS-6 heads would be a bunch better than LS-1 heads but it depends on how much porting and cam specs

if you don't do a lot of Port Work or have a lot of cam lift/duration

there will be Less difference between the 2

well i plan on taking the heads as far as they can go to match the cam (money is not an issue). I am just overall looking for the better performance head, and would it be worth the money. I heard 6 liter heads raise compression which is a good thing, But i don't want any valve to piston clearance problems. Plus i wanna make sure i can still use my springs and pushrods.

Drop the the 6.0L heads unless you are going to go forced induction. Why lose compression? Think 5.3L heads for more compression, or stick with LS1/LS6 heads if you are going to spray. You'd be better off calling a shop and telling them your cam specs and asking them what you need. I'm sure TSP, Thunder, MTI and many others can help you out.

To take the heads as far as they can go, you're going to need a lot more cam. Velocity is the key, not high lift flow numbers. Why should you care about how much they flow at .600" when your cam is nowhere near that large? Most people I've seen run that cam with stock heads. They go w/a larger grind when they get ported heads.

I seriously doubt you'll see 500 RWHP all motor with that cam and ported heads. In the Oct Issue of GMHTP, TSP made 449.6 hp and 407.2 lb/ft (after tuning) at the wheels and they were running ported LS6 heads and a cam with 231*/237* duration & .598/.595 in. lift. I've seen an over .6" lift cam in a Vette w/ ported LS1 heads make 450-460 hp. I'm not knocking your cam. Just telling you what to expect now so you won't get discouraged when you don't see 500 whp after its all done. It helps to keep your goals real. On a positive note, you should be able to run 11's with the set up with decent driving & traction. :thumb:

Thunder RAcing sent me all the cam specs. I know what cam it is. I totally understand about the porting to far and such, that why i said "well i plan on taking the heads as far as they can go to match the cam" i am basing my goals off prior knowledge on this forum. My cam has seen 400 RWHP with full bolt ons and my cam of course (tuning as well). my goal of 500hp might be a lil far, but i don't think its totally way off. The question is now, are the LS6 heads worth the upgrade with my cam or should i just stick with my stock heads and get them ported? thanks for the responses.

It's pretty hard to hit 500 to the wheels. You might get close if you go with a stage 3 head to raise compression as well you'll need a fast 90mm intake and t-body. Also a underdrive pulley, electric water pump,a monster cam such as the t-rex, and spot on tuning. If you look at the cars that have made 500 stock bottom end they use literally every little thing to squeak out horsepower.

I do not believe that 400 at the wheels is the norm for a cam like you have. And I would not expect that you'll see those numbers.
Now if you are committed to that cam then stage 2 LS1 or stage II 5.3 heads will get all that you can get. LS6s would be over kill and money spent unnecessarily. Now if you have any thoughts of upping the cam at a later date then go LS6.
My heads are probably a little small being Stage 1 stock valve LS1 heads for my 228-236 .600+ cam but it does alright. Never dynoed but it pushes my 3510 pound A4 car to 120 in the 1/4.

to hit 500rwhp all engine is not an easy goal and is tough to do on stock displacement, not impossible, just tough and to do it takes a large cam. you will not hit 500rwhp with that cam, it is a great street strip cam but at best wll get you maybe to 450ish, the norm with good stage 2 heads is 415-430.
for your best setup with that cam I would probably suggest stage 2 5.3L heads, unless you plan to upgrade later then look at LS6 or LS6 style heads.
you also need to start planning on a 12bolt to put that power to the ground.

Al, thunder racing advertised the cam at 400hp with the same bolt ons i have. Plus there have been numerous people reaching 400 on this board alone. I realize its a street cam and nothing to agreesive. The car is still a daily driver.

5.3 heads seem to be the way to go. Although i rather have my machinest do the porting and polishing (he does a real nice job, well known as well). How much do bare 5.3 heads go for? Will my valves, retainers, pushrods, springs, and rockers work with them? I would love to raise the compression a lil to try and get some extra hp. Even if i don't reach 500 wheel with the heads and cam, i def wanna make sure i am above that with nitrious.

thanks so far for all the replies.

Like MaxRaceSoftware said, depends on the end goal. For a 500rwhp goal, the LS6 heads would be my choice.

-Mindgame

A nice set of 5.3's done by TEA or MTI would be nice. But I would wait and get a set of LS6's for your combo also hogged out by TEA or MTI.

so bare ls6 heads. gonna have to price em out w/ my discount. If anyone has any part numbers feel free to share! ;)

that cam is far too small for LS-6 heads... stage II at least... I'd say stage II ls-1 heads would work just fine.

My cam has seen 400 RWHP with full bolt ons and my cam of course (tuning as well). my goal of 500hp might be a lil far, but i don't think its totally way off.

Is this the same place where you learned that 6.0 heads raise compression? :rolleyes: :D Do some research on ls1tech.com.

BTW according to Thunder's website: Here are some mods they listed on top of what you have that helped that cam to make 398 whp. (ported throttle body, ASP Pulley, Aluminum Flywheel, and Carbon Fiber Driveshaft). Less rotational mass does make a nice difference, and having ALL the info makes a difference too. Also, I'd bet this was dyno'd on a nice cold day. Also is it SAE corrected? Even if you do get 400 rwhp out of it w/stock heads, no head in the world will make an additional 100 whp.

TSP has some dynos on ls1tech of their magicstick cam w/Stage 2 5.3 heads. Again, this is an over .6" lift cam and it is still ~50 whp shy of the 500 whp mark. I have seen with my own eyes a C5 M6 with a hugh cam (again over .6" lift) and worked over ls1 heads among all the bolt ons and tuning make ~460 whp. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't 500 whp.

Ya, I'm an arse, but at least I'm realistic. Good luck though.

Al, thunder racing advertised the cam at 400hp with the same bolt ons i have. Plus there have been numerous people reaching 400 on this board alone.

And for everyone that reached 400rwhp with that cam there are 4 that barely made 380 with it.

As far as reaching 500rwhp all motor, stock cubes ... as far as I know if you do it, you'll be the first ... especially with that cam ...

Greed4Speed - No greed, i just think i got confused. Not everyone is perfect. "ported throttle body, ASP Pulley, Aluminum Flywheel, and Carbon Fiber Driveshaft" Ported Throttle body is done... did nothing for my car, didn't even bother to list it. Asp pulley is on the way. I don't like aluminum flywheels for street driving and i can't see a carbon fiber dryshaft being that much more beneficial seeing a stock ls1 dryshaft is light as hell.

V6toZ28 - Better search some sigs, i just saw one with 384 (untuned) with my mods. Wish i could remember his name. I'll let ya know if i find it. I am over the fact that 500 might not be realistic for what i want to do. BUt i would like to be somewhat close. I guess we will have to see. At least i got my answer, stick with my stock heads. I realize now that the cam is not big enough to go bigger so stockers will work fine.

With that cam your not gonna hit 400 with good heads you will be around 410ish. The best heads for a 224 cam imo are cartek heads ported for the 224 cam. If not then a 5.3 stage 2 port wich will raise the compression alittle wich will be good for the juice later. Afr's new 205cc's are looking good right now also but might want to wait and see some more results first.

Yet more info for you.:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208708&highlight=tr+224
2nd guy to post.
399 w/ stock heads, tuning and bolt ons, and 416 w/ stage 2 5.3. Same cam. I was talking to a guy today that ran that cam and he makes low 380s tuned, w/stock heads .

From what I've seen the pulley won't show gains on the dyno, but will at the track.

And you may want to take a stock MAF when you get tuned. The tuners I've talked to won't touch a car with a ported or aftermarket MAF.

BTW, the smiley face after the 6.0 head comment was to show that I was just messing with ya. If I was really being an arse I'd have never said good luck. :D I'm one of those information whores that researches the hell out of something before purchasing it for my car. Then I'm sceptical about gains until I have proof. lol

well thats good to know, but i also believe every car is different. and my car has already proven tons of people wrong on this board. So just a lil thoughtful hope for me. Thank u for ur information however. I did get an answer after all this and i appreciate this.

Brandon

and my car has already proven tons of people wrong on this board. Brandon

Why is that?? I'm really confused. Enlighten me, please.

way back i posted a thread asking what i should run in the 1/4 mile stock, and then with my existing mods at the time. I also asked what kind of mph. I got people telling me 13.6-13.9 stock cuz i am a "Heavy Vert" and telling me traps will only be at 106-107.. when i pulled off a 13.2 at 109 with a 2.1 60'. Thats why i believe every car is different.

In my experience the 224/224 cam usually nets a rwhp in the 380-390 range with stock heads on a car with all of the bolts and well tuned, but many factors come in to play with dyno numbers. With good Stage 2 heads the 224/224 cam is usually good for 420ish rwhp, I've seen lower, I've seen higher. It is a good all round cam that has good manners on the street and will net some good numbers at the track.

StylezZ28- I would get rid of the MAF and go back to a fully stock one, get a line lock and heat those Nitto's up and get your 60' down to a 1.9-2.0 and you can hit high 12's without the cam, mid to low 12's with the cam. Start planning/saving for a 12 bolt.
If you want some good heads for your setup I can help you there.

way back i posted a thread asking what i should run in the 1/4 mile stock, and then with my existing mods at the time. I also asked what kind of mph. I got people telling me 13.6-13.9 stock cuz i am a "Heavy Vert" and telling me traps will only be at 106-107.. when i pulled off a 13.2 at 109 with a 2.1 60'. Thats why i believe every car is different.

6 speed with LT and DRs should be in the 12.7-12.9 range with a reasonably competent driver ... nothing special about 13.1 with your mods even for a "heavy" vert.

I would give the people at kartech a call... you CAN see 500rwhp from H/C

6 speed with LT and DRs should be in the 12.7-12.9 range with a reasonably competent driver ... nothing special about 13.1 with your mods even for a "heavy" vert.

Wow, what a poor attitude. My point was 13.2 STOCK @109, 13.1 is a burned up clutch, crappy 60' and a dragging y pipe all the way down the track. Sparks flying out the back. I even got kicked out that day for the ypipe and they wouldn't let me run open headers.

Thanks for the offers and info highlander and Demon. I am just going to have my guy do the maching on the stock heads. Get it fully tuned and see what she does. going to prob be a winter thing anyway but want to start planning now. I may hit up the track soon on a wednesday and see what she pulls. I really wanna try and get a 12.5-12.6 out of it w/o the cam. I think she can do it with a real sweet 60'.

I will look into the stock maf idea. It didn't seem to hurt the car at all when i descreened it and gutted it, but i will do what i can to see the power gains.

Thanks again.

way back i posted a thread asking what i should run in the 1/4 mile stock, and then with my existing mods at the time. I also asked what kind of mph. I got people telling me 13.6-13.9 stock cuz i am a "Heavy Vert" and telling me traps will only be at 106-107.. when i pulled off a 13.2 at 109 with a 2.1 60'. Thats why i believe every car is different.


My LS1 ran this stock..except my 60 was a 2.2
With a TSP Exhaust I managed to run a 13.09w/a 2.2 60@109

I do not believe that 400 at the wheels is the norm for a cam like you have. And I would not expect that you'll see those numbers.
Now if you are committed to that cam then stage 2 LS1 or stage II 5.3 heads will get all that you can get. LS6s would be over kill and money spent unnecessarily. Now if you have any thoughts of upping the cam at a later date then go LS6.

That cam will easily get you to 400 rwhp with ported heads, LTs and intake. I have the TEA 5.3 stage 2s with Jet Hots and running full cats and muffler and all accessories easily reached that number. I don't however expect you to get anywhere near 500. This is a cam that will smog even in the Republik of Kalifornia. With some time with LS1Edit mine idled like a stock LS1.

Assemble and enjoy it.

Perry