Not too sure about the Velite as the basis for the 5th gen.

There was a pretty impressive display infront of the lodge at Pebble Beach. One of the cars there was a Velite, and this was the 1st time I saw it in person, and because it was near other cars, and I saw it at ground level instead of up on a turntable, I got a good perspective of it's sized and styling (it was directly behind a Chrysler 300C SRT-8.

The Velite looks fantastic, but it isn't exactly a small car. The new Mustang was about 25 yards away. I'd say the Velite is wider & about as tall and long as the new Mustang. But the Velite's proportions, while it looks great on the car, doesn't look very Camaro like. To be perfectly honest, and to paraphrase what was told to another member of the board: "It's kind of big to be a Camaro".

The GTO in reality is smaller than the Camaro. It's shorter, narrower, but taller and has a longer greenhouse. The result is the feeling the car's bigger than Camaro, though it actually isn't. The Velite is a wider and lower version of it. I can easily see the Velite as a basis of a new GTO, a Buick sporty car, a Cadillac sporty car, and even a "kick-ass" Chevrolet high performance car. But I have to say, it is kinda big for a Camaro.

Under the circumstances, I can see the issue in why some people at GM may want to change the name. And it isn't related to Ste. Therese.

Is it the wheelbase and track that make the car too big? Or are the overhangs long, which could be tidied up?

Is it the wheelbase and track that make the car too big? Or are the overhangs long, which could be tidied up?

The issue is that the greenhouse is too big, directly related to having too much rear seat and the roofline in that area being too tall.

Remember, Velite is a BUICK.

Camaros ARE NOT BUICKS.

While having good space in the rear of the car is a big important issue for a Buick designed to compete in the near-lux segment, having such provisions for a car that is designed to exist in the "affordable performance" and/or "ponycar" segment is the kiss of death. The car ends up looking like a sedan. Camaros ARE NOT SEDANS.

Riveras and G-body Regals ARE BUICKS. Note the roofline on a G-body Regal (Grand National) sometime and compare it to a Camaro or even a late 60's/early 70's Chevelle...

GM needs to remember:

CAMAROS ARE NOT BUICKS.

The GTO in reality is smaller than the Camaro. It's shorter, narrower, but taller and has a longer greenhouse. The result is the feeling the car's bigger than Camaro, though it actually isn't. The Velite is a wider and lower version of it. I can easily see the Velite as a basis of a new GTO, a Buick sporty car, a Cadillac sporty car, and even a "kick-ass" Chevrolet high performance car. But I have to say, it is kinda big for a Camaro.


Your not attempting to imply that "shorter", "narrower" and "taller" are favorable adjectives to use when comparing performance cars, are you? Perhaps if Mr. Bean designed a sports car, that would be the case. The Velite is lower and wider than the GTO? I say "Great!" I'd much rather have the Camaro too large than too small. I'm a pretty large guy, and the main reason why I did not buy a Corvette is because the interior is a bit cramped for a daily driver.

The Velite is about as tall as the Mustang, but wider? I'm starting to like this car already. As long as the engine power is enough to move the added weight, I can't wait. :D

They also need to remember, though, how they got ripped for the "horrible space efficiency" (i.e. backseat smaller than a Civic's, with an exterior that is like a midsize sedan). Of course, I think the car should shrink some and still have a smallish backseat (or only a little bigger), rather than staying the same size as a 4th gen and getting a bigger back seat. Lighter weight and closer to 50/50 weight distribution wouldn't hurt (though today, 4000 lbs is sadly becoming normal, so if the Camaro can come in below 3400, we'd be sitting pretty...).

I could have swarn I said that the Velite looked too big to be a Camaro. We had a huge thread about wheel bases and tracks and all this.

The car ends up looking like a sedan. Camaros ARE NOT SEDANS.

Riveras and G-body Regals ARE BUICKS. Note the roofline on a G-body Regal (Grand National) sometime and compare it to a Camaro or even a late 60's/early 70's Chevelle...

GM needs to remember:

CAMAROS ARE NOT BUICKS.

I would agree that having a Buick sedan-sized Camaro would be not be good, but how much bigger is the Velite exactly? Good styling could eliminate much of the Sedan-look if it isn't unreasonably large.

I would agree that having a Buick sedan-sized Camaro would be not be good, but how much bigger is the Velite exactly? Good styling could eliminate much of the Sedan-look if it isn't unreasonably large.

It's not size that's the problem. Camaros are not small cars. The problem is the shape of the greenhouse and the emphasis put on rear seating.

Those things are appropriate in a Buick, but not a Camaro.

Im sure, like with other global chassis, that there will be different body parts for each car, especialy for Zeta. I think that the greenhouse shape, as well as rear shape is something we shouldnt really worry about.

When Regise Fillman and Kelly Rippa drove the Velite on there show, it looked pretty large. High belt line, large fenders, huge rims...it looked like a REALLY big car. Seeing the picture of the tall Tiger Woods in the car made him look like a 12 year old, and when I finaly saw the Velite up close, It looked a lot larger then a Camaro. The wheelbase is longer and wider, but its overall length and hight was about on cue with the 4th gen.

But aren't we talking about a semi-flexible platform that would allow for shorter (but not narrower) cars?

A 4th gen is about 18" +/- longer than a C5 and a C5 is still around 6" shorter than my 1st gen (I have all three in my driveway as we speak. :D )

I'd like to compare the Velite to a 4th gen in over-all dimension (which may have already been done here at some time).

But aren't we talking about a semi-flexible platform that would allow for shorter (but not narrower) cars?

There are things that are easy to change on a car in a platform, and things that are hard (meaning expensive).

Fenders are easy. Pillars are hard along with windshield rake and door openings. The structure behind the rear seat and the firewall are particularly difficult, especially on a convertible.

Hhhhhhmmmm......there is a large rear seat area in the Velite.

I just Googled the dimensions of a 4th gen vs the Velite and got a few....

Over-all length for the Velite is actually 7.2" shorter than a 4th gen.
Width is 1.5" wider than a 4th gen.
Wheelbase is a whopping 13.6" longer!

The greenhouse dimension is crucial to the Camaro looking like a Camaro and NOT a sedan.

You know, we oughta' get a list of questions ready for Scott at our BG Summit (one's that he could even possibly answer that is)...I might start another thread...

It also appears to have really high doors, a growing trend I'm not too fond of. I'm sure the resulting small side windows will create an aggressive look. Just the same, it's nice being able to rest your arm on the door (and see out of the car).

Velite pics:
http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=625

As for the green house, extending the rear somewhat would even out some of the proportions. If it's the first gen they are modeling, this may not create a sedan-shape afterall:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/3652/1969/69b7.jpg

The Velite hood also seems a bit short for a Camaro. By the time the front and rear styling tweaks are made, the car will be just as long as a 4th gen--something else I'm not fond of.

It'd be nice to see what GM's come up with to this point. Maybe it is more Chevelle than Camaro.

chevelle ? I have a bad feeling that the Camaro just isn't coming back :(

Not that I'll be buying one, because I'm a Firebird guy, however if the new car draws heavily on 1st gen styling cues then I think these proportions fall right in line with that. Passenger comfort is an issue in the 4th gens for many. It would be nice to be able to carry more than 2 peolple comfortably so we don't always have to take a "slow car" when I go out with friends. It is a shorter car over all with the wheels pushed out toward the corners. Where's the fire? Nothing to see here.

Alot of speculation has gone out about the Velite being the actual dimensions & layout of GM's "performance" coupes. By looking at the Velite in pictures, I was pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of Camaro being based on the car. The car looks every bit as good in person as it does in pictures. It's very well proportionate, it's just that it gives off far more size than I expected.

Just to give an idea as to what I mean, compare the Velite dimensions to 2 other cars:

Mustang:
wheelbase: 107.1
length: 187.6
width: 72.1
height: 54.5

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

4th gen Camaro
wheelbase: 101.1
length: 193.5
width: 74.1
height: 51.3

The Velite has a wheelbase 0.1" longer than the Crown Victoria, yet is a mere 2" longer than the 2004 Mustang or 8" shorter than the 4th gen. The 4th gen Camaro was already wide at 74". Velite is even 1.5" wider!

Don't get me wrong, or misread me. It's exactly the size coupe I'd buy if the price & performance were right. It looks as if it's going to be a comfortable high speed tourer, and if the Velite is any indication of the direction GM design is going, I'd say Chevrolet's version will be every bit a knockout as I've been hearing!

But if Camaro is going to be a shortened version of this, it's going to look very oddly proportioned (175" long with 76" of width & a 105" wheelbase? :confused: ), and if is indeed based on the Velite structure, it's going to seem a little large.

If they shorten it for the "Camaro", they could also likely make a narrower car on the same platform. I believe the new STS is around 4 inches wider than a CTS, and they are both on Sigma (similar change in wheelbase, too).

EDIT: "It's the largest of the Sigmas: Its 116.4-in. wheelbase, 196.3-in. overall length and 72.6-in. width are, respectively, 3.0, 6.2 and 2.0 in. greater than its CTS sibling's." From R&T's review of the STS. 3 inch longer wheelbase, 2 inches wider. Not quite 4 inches, but you get the idea. :)

as seen earlier possible velite, maybe solstice, what about the curve?
well..remember, we don't talk about future products.

That said, a couple of things to think about....

One.....we gotta stay in business. Concepts do not pay bills. That said, we have put out some interesting concepts in the past year or two......
(hint...didja ever look at the chassis that goes under the Solstice???)

The V-series Cadillacs are nothing to joke about.......(yup high-end..but that's what you were talking about with Ford Concepts)

The Buick Velite may not be your cup of tea...but what lies underneath that skin....well.......I won't say anymore.......

[continued]
Finally, GM is, by no means, perfect. But....perhaps you and I will sit down some day and have a private talk.......and when you see the bigger picture, perhaps you'll understand why things are the way they are.

If it were up to me, perhaps the GTO and Buick coupe should be based off of the Zeta long variant. That's just my opinion. This would leave the short version for sporty cars.

Also...I may be wrong...but from what I've been gathering, the Holden VE (Zeta), short variant, sounds like it will be smaller than the GMNA Zeta short variant.. Maybe an opportunity there?

Regarding Velite's width....it's very, very possible that some of the car guys working on "our" car want a narrower car also. ;)

How does the new Buick compare to the Monaro/GTO in size?

How does the new Buick compare to the Monaro/GTO in size?

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

GTO:
wheelbase: 109.8
length: 189.8
width: ?
height: 54.9

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/specs_dimensions.jsp

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

GTO:
wheelbase: 109.8
length: 189.8
width: ?
height: 54.9

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/specs_dimensions.jsp

Monaro is 72.56in wide...I would assume thats the same as GTO. That spec is direct from the Holden dealer brochure pdf on Holden's website...Converted from metric of course.

Mustang:
wheelbase: 107.1
length: 187.6
width: 72.1
height: 54.5

GTO/Monaro:
wheelbase: 109.8
length: 189.8
width: 72.5
height: 54.9
Seems to me that by dimensions alone the GTO/Monaro is a Ponycar. :D

I definately would NOT want a big heavy Camaro. After owning both, I would say that to me, the Mustang is much closer to the size car I would want to drive. Similar size to a 4th gen on the inside, much smaller on the outside.

I think a 3200-3300lb Mustang sized (but Camaro shaped, of course) car would be sweet. Like C6 to C5 - smaller, lighter, faster, cheaper. If velite isn't the platform that can deliver, they need to find another platform.

I definately would NOT want a big heavy Camaro. After owning both, I would say that to me, the Mustang is much closer to the size car I would want to drive. Similar size to a 4th gen on the inside, much smaller on the outside.

I think a 3200-3300lb Mustang sized (but Camaro shaped, of course) car would be sweet. Like C6 to C5 - smaller, lighter, faster, cheaper. If velite isn't the platform that can deliver, they need to find another platform.
Well if they are going to find another platform I guess you don't mind waiting about 8 years. The Zeta cars will debut at this years auto shows and that means 1 year till the 1st ones hit the streets, but if you want them to cancel the Camaro I am sure they can.

if length is the issue, what's the big deal? i thought length was a relatively inexpensive thing to modify for a given platform. :confused:

Well if they are going to find another platform I guess you don't mind waiting about 8 years. The Zeta cars will debut at this years auto shows and that means 1 year till the 1st ones hit the streets, but if you want them to cancel the Camaro I am sure they can.

I'm sure some people would be happy with an overweight car and the wrong size and shape as long as it said Camaro on it, but not me.

The Velite's Zeta chassis looks to be about the right size, I dont know what the big deal is? Yeah, wheelbase is longer, that means less overhang and more interior room, not a problem. The third and 4th gens could have used a bit more wheel base.
And Velite is 7 inches shorter then the 4th gen? Where is the loss here? The C6 did pretty much the same thing. Enlarged the wheel base, decresed overall length.

We wont know what the greenhouse looks like as the only Zeta car so far is a Vert. Im sure that they can adapt the greenhouse to make it look like a Camaro. I think we are just getting antsy now.

I'm sure some people would be happy with an overweight car and the wrong size and shape as long as it said Camaro on it, but not me.

Weight 1565 kg / 3450.2 lbs

Power 400 bhp / 298.4 kW @ 6200 rpm
BHP/Liter 111.1
Torque 542 Nm / 399.8 ft lbs @ 3200 rpm
Power to weight ratio 0.26 bhp/kg

Smaller overall than the 4th gen, IRS and still in the right weight range, with more interior room. If that is wrong in size then you aren't looking or a Camaro you are looking for a Monza. Also so far as shape, I have faith. I have seen enough close versions of the final car to say it WILL look like a Camaro but until it is out in public and released we can't all be in agreement.

Won't a car with a longer wheelbase and a wider track handle a whole lot better??

As long as the overall, outside deminsions are Camaro-like, it sounds like a win-win to me.

:)

OK. I was a little concerned about the whole Velite/Zeta platform thing when I first started to read this thread. Now after thinking about it, I see a car (the Velite) that is actually smaller than a 4th gen Camaro in length, but with longer wheelbase, width and a fraction more height. Where is the problem? If anything the Velite, in "looking to be too big to be a Camaro", says more to me about the evolution of packaging since the F-body was the state of the art back in 83 than anything else.

I think you could easily carve a "Camaro" space out of the Velite by shortening the wheelbase down to, say, 108 inches a la 1st/2nd gen cars. With the advancements in passenger cell packaging, that would leave us with a car thats far more livelable than the outgoing models, yet still fit in within contemporary pony car dimensions. With a swoopy greenhouse the car could still offer that "intimate" feeling we like so much in our favourite pony car without being claustrophobic. The car doesn't have to be Intrepid- roomy to be comfortable, or useable. Whether you shorten the overhangs or not you still get a tidier package than the old car which was no stranger to big overhangs anyway.

I realize that it isn't as simple as this post makes it out to be but a platform with variable length wheelbase dimensions isn't rocket science - Holden has that now and I think I read somewhere that Zeta is to be a flexible multi-wheelbase platform as well. So... throw in some SS and (Camaro) heritage styling cues/sheetmetal that ultimately says Camaro, if you will, an LS2/6speed combo, some nice wheels, true duals and call it a day.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, stamp that Camaro name on it's rear end (that's a BIG one to leave out:-). Now we're done.

Won't a car with a longer wheelbase and a wider track handle a whole lot better??

As long as the overall, outside deminsions are Camaro-like, it sounds like a win-win to me.

:)


I have to agree with you!

The longer wheelbase will do two things - improve the ride and cut down those overhangs.

With a swoopy greenhouse the car could still offer that "intimate" feeling we like so much in our favourite pony car without being claustrophobic. The car doesn't have to be Intrepid- roomy to be comfortable, or useable. Whether you shorten the overhangs or not you still get a tidier package than the old car which was no stranger to big overhangs anyway.


DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner! Somebody make sure Chevrolet gets a copy of that paragraph right there!

The issue was not about the car's length or greenhouse. It's that humoungous wheelbase and width. Velite is one wide mother.

Perhaps it's something that takes some getting used to.

It's just seeing Velite in pictures and thinking "Camaro", and then seeing it in real life with other normally proportioned cars around it makes you automatically think "Umm.... that's kind of big to be a Camaro".

I can almost guaranty that when anyone here 1st lays eyes on the car with other cars around, that's the exact reaction your mind will have. :think:

I think that it's good to voice concerns like the ones in this thread NOW....versus a year from now.

The issue was not about the car's length or greenhouse. It's that humoungous wheelbase and width. Velite is one wide mother.

Perhaps it's something that takes some getting used to.

It's just seeing Velite in pictures and thinking "Camaro", and then seeing it in real life with other normally proportioned cars around it makes you automatically think "Umm.... that's kind of big to be a Camaro".

I can almost guaranty that when anyone here 1st lays eyes on the car with other cars around, that's the exact reaction your mind will have. :think:

Yep, Velite IS too big. The whole reason it's too big is the damned rear seat. It looks even bigger than it is because of the greenhouse. For a Camaro, lose the extra length in the REAR SEATS and then keep the fastback styling the last three generations of the car were known for. Yeah, it's gonna be tight, and the folks in the back are going to be bonking their heads on the roof... SO WHAT?!?

If you package protect for a super-roomy rearseat you turn the car into a CHEVELLE and not a CAMARO. Camaros are 2+2 cars... that means you, your babe, and two people who are your kids or people you don't like that much anyway...

Want bigger rear seats? Buy a Velite or a GTO or a Monte Carlo.

DO NOT compromise the look of the car for packaging two more 80 year olds in the back of a Buick!

KEEP THE WIDTH! Wide=good. Park a 4th gen next to a Mudstain and look at the difference with the cars. The Camaro is wider and not as upright, WHICH IS GOOD.

Yep, Velite IS too big. The whole reason it's too big is the damned rear seat. It looks even bigger than it is because of the greenhouse. For a Camaro, lose the extra length in the REAR SEATS and then keep the fastback styling the last three generations of the car were known for. Yeah, it's gonna be tight, and the folks in the back are going to be bonking their heads on the roof... SO WHAT?!?

If you package protect for a super-roomy rearseat you turn the car into a CHEVELLE and not a CAMARO. Camaros are 2+2 cars... that means you, your babe, and two people who are your kids or people you don't like that much anyway...

Want bigger rear seats? Buy a Velite or a GTO or a Monte Carlo.

DO NOT compromise the look of the car for packaging two more 80 year olds in the back of a Buick!

KEEP THE WIDTH! Wide=good. Park a 4th gen next to a Mudstain and look at the difference with the cars. The Camaro is wider and not as upright, WHICH IS GOOD.


Pacer, on a scale of 1 to 10.....10 being cosmic certaintude....how would you rate the chances of Chevy allowing it's car to be compromised in this way...for Buick?

They can leave it the back seats the way they are if the weight of the car can come in at 3500 lbs. I just dont want the car to be a porker like my GTO is.

OK, so other than wheelbase, which can be changed(?) the issue is width. For some perspective I did some additional checking around. Using data from the last generation B-body which we can all agree on as being not too small - I would think and also the 04 monte which is considered a "large" coupe:

96 Impala/Caprice:
Wheelbase 115.9
Length 214.1
Width 77.5
Height 55.7

04 Monte Carlo:
Wheelbase 110.5
Length 197.9
Width 72.3
Height 55.2

Now, the data already collected:

Mustang:
wheelbase: 107.1
length: 187.6
width: 72.1
height: 54.5

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

4th gen Camaro
wheelbase: 101.1
length: 193.5
width: 74.1
height: 51.3

So, what do we get from all of this: The 4th gen Camaro was a fairly large, wide car with a short wheelbase, for all intents and purposes, just as large as a Monte. The Velite is large, wide car (but not the widest to have graced the road) with a long wheelbase that's 8 inches shorter than a 4th gen. Having not seen the car in person, is an inch and a half really that much? Maybe, on a car that's so much shorter. Still as someone else posted, the STS is 4 inches wider than a CTS and they are both built on the same platform.

With Zeta being every bit as flexible as Sigma, I don't believe there is any reason to think that the platform can't be modified to suit many roles for any given division. The G6 sedan uses the Malibu Maxx version of Epsilon as it's starting point, giving a roomier sedan than the "regular" Malibu, so is there really a problem?

I see what you are saying, but it should give you a hint as to how big (deceptively or otherwise) when you realize the wheelbase is just a finger's width shorter (about an inch) than the Chevrolet Caprice! Or the fact that it's within 2" of the already wide Chevrolet Caprice! :shock:

Now, I actually took time to look up Velite's dimensions and found out that at least part of it's size is deceptive. But I had exactly the 1st reaction that anyone else who sees that width & wheelbase on a car that small is going to have. Those people are also going to be considering Mustangs.

Name one complaint and misconception that plagued the 4th gen F-bodies in the end? "They were too big & fuel hungry". GM's going to have to advertize their little fannies off to counter this one.

The Velite is a great looking car, and I can easily see a "Camaro" body (and greenhouse) on the car. Also, when you look up the length, it's seems to be in definate ponycar territory.

But this car, in Velite trim or shortened for a Camaro, is going to take alot of getting used to if the Velite's proportions (width & wheelbase) are what we are getting.

I like the current trend to have a longer wheelbase and shorter overhang. The new Vette, GTO even the 300C has a long wheelbase for its overall size. I like the way the cars overall stance looks.

Originally posted by Guoin

I see what you are saying, but it should give you a hint as to how big (deceptively or otherwise) when you realize the wheelbase is just a finger's width shorter (about an inch) than the Chevrolet Caprice! Or the fact that it's within 2" of the already wide Chevrolet Caprice!

Now, I actually took time to look up Velite's dimensions and found out that at least part of it's size is deceptive. But I had exactly the 1st reaction that anyone else who sees that width & wheelbase on a car that small is going to have. Those people are also going to be considering Mustangs.

Name one complaint and misconception that plagued the 4th gen F-bodies in the end? "They were too big & fuel hungry". GM's going to have to advertize their little fannies off to counter this one.

The Velite is a great looking car, and I can easily see a "Camaro" body (and greenhouse) on the car. Also, when you look up the length, it's seems to be in definate ponycar territory.

But this car, in Velite trim or shortened for a Camaro, is going to take alot of getting used to if the Velite's proportions (width & wheelbase) are what we are getting.

I agree completely with regards to the realization that the Velite being "small" is also almost as large as the B-body Caprice in probaly all dimensions but overall length. Modern packaging can really make inroads insofar as changing perceptions of what exactly a big car is and can be.

I can also see a Camaro spawned from the Velite's underpinnings but it would need some paring and slashing, most definitely in the wheelbase and width dimensions. I'm just saying that to be more user-friendly and intimate don't have to be mutually exclusive - in a Camaro.

About the popular misconceptions, the one dealing with size maybe handled through de-emphasizing the width by using sheetmetal lacking the very curved surfaces esp. in the quarter panels that flared out from the pillar giving the rear end a wide look, as was used in te 4th gen and C5 Vette. A more upright windshield and seating/driving position a la Mustang and lighter effort/variable effort steering may also alleviate that ponderous feeling. I think GM can do all and more of this without "selling out" what makes a Camaro right.

The notion of V-8 gas hunger could be tougher one with a whole generation and a half of kids growing up with the notion that a V-8 automatically means poor mileage and is therefore somehow bad. That just isn't so any more. I came of age in the eighties and for me, it just doesn't get any better than a V-8 and I'd really rather have one, but I have friends, same age, who would beg to disagree.

It's all in the marketing and re-education in getting the message out there. You can't tell me that the manufacturers can't do it. They have manipulated the public for years regarding the benefits of FWD versus RWD and most recently they have been hugley successful at putting people into big trucks and ever bigger SUVs - because they're better(?). No, they're just more profitable.

.....
Now, the data already collected:

Mustang:
wheelbase: 107.1
length: 187.6
width: 72.1
height: 54.5

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

4th gen Camaro
wheelbase: 101.1
length: 193.5
width: 74.1
height: 51.3

Here's some additional info for the first gen. FWIW :D

Wheelbase..........108.0 in
Track, F/R..........59.6/59.5 in
Length..........186.0 in
Width..........72.3 in
Height..........51.1 in
Ground clearance..........5.1 in
Curb weight..........3368 lb

I'm actually going to have to agree with Big Al on this one. This board always bitches about the 4th gen having too much overhang and not enough wheelbase...back seat is too small. Well...problem fixed with the Velite. Who cares about it being an extra 1 1/2" wider. You know how big that is? Barely noticable. It might change the greenhouse or whatever, but many of you were saying thats exactly what the 4th gen needed. It needed to feel bigger instead of feeling small in an actually "big" car. This is exactly what will help the Camaro sell (even though their not going for huge sales #'s here, we're assuming). Not to mention, they can still change bits and peices about the car to give it more of a Camaro feel and look. This is a classic example of people wanting change but when it comes all the sudden they renig.

Exactly to what point is width measured? IOW, to the extents of the mirrors or the body proper?

Exactly to what point is width measured? IOW, to the extents of the mirrors or the body proper?

In my experience, GM publishes body width without side mirrors.

PacerX,

How many inches in overall length could be reduced if it had a "Camaro" back seat versus a "Buick" back seat?

wait, you guys are complaining now because the car is too modern? it looks "too big"??? why don't you guys do this to re-adjust your reference point: take a step back and look at a 4th gen Camaro. now THAT car is too big. especially in the front end. it's 2x as big as it should be. here's a fair comparison between size and wheel base for the two cars: Velite - F1 car, 4th gen - clown on a kid's tricycle.

here's how I envision a modern Camaro: front end similar to BMW 3 series in preportion (wheels almost flush with the tip of the front end), rear wheels more inward to offset the heavy front end so they carry more car in the back therfore allowing for a slight rear weight bias.

and BTW, the reason the car got absolutly slammed in the media for being too big, was not because of it's overall size, but BECAUSE it's big in the overhangs dept. and WAY small in usable space.

EDIT: pics. this is the change to the wheelbase I'd make to make it more proper. look better?

Original:
http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/BuickVelite.jpg
Mod:
http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/BuickVelite-rear.jpg

if the front wheels could be pushed a few more inches toward the front that would also be ideal.

Pacer, on a scale of 1 to 10.....10 being cosmic certaintude....how would you rate the chances of Chevy allowing it's car to be compromised in this way...for Buick?

I can't answer that.

PacerX,

How many inches in overall length could be reduced if it had a "Camaro" back seat versus a "Buick" back seat?

Or that.

I can't answer that.



Or that.

What is the flying velocity of a sparrow? :)


EDIT: Sorry about that Monty Python flashback.

wait, you guys are complaining now because the car is too modern? it looks "too big"??? why don't you guys do this to re-adjust your reference point: take a step back and look at a 4th gen Camaro. now THAT car is too big. especially in the front end. it's 2x as big as it should be. here's a fair comparison between size and wheel base for the two cars: Velite - F1 car, 4th gen - clown on a kid's tricycle.

here's how I envision a modern Camaro: front end similar to BMW 3 series in preportion (wheels almost flush with the tip of the front end), rear wheels more inward to offset the heavy front end so they carry more car in the back therfore allowing for a slight rear weight bias.

and BTW, the reason the car got absolutly slammed in the media for being too big, was not because of it's overall size, but BECAUSE it's big in the overhangs dept. and WAY small in usable space.

EDIT: pics. this is the change to the wheelbase I'd make to make it more proper. look better?

Original:
http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/BuickVelite.jpg
Mod:
http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/BuickVelite-rear.jpg

if the front wheels could be pushed a few more inches toward the front that would also be ideal.

1. Trust me. The thing looks bigger than a Camaro in person.

2. Even a BMW 5 series doesn't have Velite's wheelbase.... and it's over 5" longer.

3. I don't recall anyone slaming the 4th gen's overhang but me. California dips & driveway entrances eat my spoiler daily.

4. Don't do a photochop on the drawing. The drawing is not proportionate to the actual car. You'll do better using a picture of the actual car. :)

Potential consequences of an extra 1.5 inches of width:
More room for headers
More room in the back seat
Room for 11" rear wheels without hammering on the wheel wells
Potential weight increase, but apparently the weight may be similar to a 4th gen
I like it!

Also, longer wheel base means that the engine can acutaly be placed in a normal location so that you dont have to bust your knuckles to change plugs!

I dont see the problem. Its body length is smaller, yet wheel base is longer. That means more interior space meaning more practacality for people not looking to run 12's. Wider track means better stance and stability. Wider is Better.
Velite is a large car, I will not doubt that, but when you compare the dimentions to the last 4th gen, it doesnt seem that big. Its features makes it look huge! That I will say, but fitted with more streamlined body pannles, I think we could have a 5th gen on our hands.

One feature id like to see on the Camaro is the ability of the slide/recline seats like on my Maxx. Talk about flexablity! Thats only if its a hatchback.

What if the Velite is on a stretched and wider version of Zeta... Would certainly make sense.

If the platform can be streched and lengthened so easy, why not build a huge buick, larger than life so as to distract the public as to whats really under the curtain.

What if the Velite is on a stretched and wider version of Zeta

Going on what has been said by guionM that car is similar in size to the GTO. Currently the GTO uses the same floor pan as the Commodore (just modified a little). Holden have a longer wheel base in use for wagons, utes, LWB sedans etc. It kinda sounds like it is about the size the next commodore sedan will be, which includes the GTO. IMO the roomy back seat seems to give that away ;). Which would leave more room for models longer than the Velite are yet to be seen.

This would also mean if it is the middle of the range Zeta then I expect a smaller of the range Zeta to pop up is some form. I'm hoping for a new 4dr Torana here is Aus, your hoping for a Camaro off the same size wheel base. maybe?

Now going off a post from ages ago that I posted up on this board was the expected Zeta rollout.

ZETA ROLL-OUT
2007 Buick luxury sedan
2008 Buick convertible
2008 Pontiac Grand Prix
2008 Pontiac GTO
2008/09 Chevrolet coupe
and convertible
2009 Chevrolet Impala
2010 Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Now i'm pretty sure that the mid range (Medium Wheel Base?) cars will be out first as that is what the Commodore will use. The LWB Zeta cars will follow a year or 2 later from Holden because Holden like to stage things so they don't spread themselves too thin. Then a SWB Zeta will follow soon after, this is my guess as to how Zeta will be released into the wild. Now looking at that rollout list we can be pretty sure the '2008 Buick convertible' i.e. Velite would be around the MWB. The '2007 Buick luxury sedan' MWB again? The '2008 Pontiac Grand Prix' and '2008 Pontiac GTO' sound to me like they will be the Pontiac copies of the Buick 2dr convertible (but with a roof!) and Sedan. And the '2008/09 Chevrolet coupe and convertible' could be on SWB? maybe?

Well, to guys in the know, how is that guess?

Close?
Super close?
STFU n00b you have NFI!?

Anyway April 'ish' 2006 and Holden will put out the VE Commodore and things should be pretty clear by then compared to now :p

Better question: What if there is only one wheelbase for all GM-NA Zeta cars? :think:

Better question: What if there is only one wheelbase for all GM-NA Zeta cars? :think:

I was going to say 'not a hope in hell!' but then I noticed you said GM-NA Zeta cars. Interesting question tho if you are getting at what I think you are getting at :D ;)

3. I don't recall anyone slaming the 4th gen's overhang but me. California dips & driveway entrances eat my spoiler daily.


Rest assured, many others have issues with the overhangs. These dips and driveways are not California-exclusive.

Better question: What if there is only one wheelbase for all GM-NA Zeta cars? :think:

Very interesting thought.

Lets compare the G35 Sedan and G35 Coupe, for example.

SEDAN: / COUPE:
WB=112.2 inches / 112.2 in
Length= 186.5 in / 182.2 in
Width = 69 in / 71.5 in


BTW, I think the G35 Coupe is about the right size for a 5th gen Camaro.

G35 is way to small IMO. The new GTO is about the size and feel that I want in my 5th gen. Ride hight is fine, suspension is good, road feel is great.

What is the flying velocity of a sparrow? :)


EDIT: Sorry about that Monty Python flashback.


An African or European swollow (not sparrow).

An African or European swollow (not sparrow).


I.........I, don't know. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

G35 is way to small IMO. The new GTO is about the size and feel that I want in my 5th gen. Ride hight is fine, suspension is good, road feel is great.

Actually, compared to the current GTO....I'd like to see the next Camaro smaller and the next GTO, slightly larger.

Camaro = Ponycar
GTO = Intermediate

Actually, compared to the current GTO....I'd like to see the next Camaro smaller and the next GTO, slightly larger.

Camaro = Ponycar
GTO = Intermediate

I agree. The Camaro should be smaller than the GTO. And the G35 shows an attractive coupe can be made on longer wheelbase.

Originally posted by Z284ever

Actually, compared to the current GTO....I'd like to see the next Camaro smaller and the next GTO, slightly larger.

Camaro = Ponycar
GTO = Intermediate

Agreed. This would be more historically appropriate since pony cars should be more intimate that intermediates. Not to mention somewhat more nimble, quicker and better handling cars and affordable in general than their larger brethren.

Unless, of course GM is planning to step Camaro out of the pony car mold and blur the lines of what constitutes a pony car or an intermediate, in the traditional sense. Offering instead a group of well-rounded like-sized performance coupes that don't necessarily make any concessions to one stereotype or the other.

Actually, compared to the current GTO....I'd like to see the next Camaro smaller and the next GTO, slightly larger.

Camaro = Ponycar
GTO = IntermediateSmaller? Maybe have a lower roofline, but as the current GTO has basically the same dimensions as the Mustang, how can it not be considered a Ponycar?

We need to unlearn the fact that the GTO was once an intermediate. The next Camaro could easily have the same proportions as the GTO, yet be sportier with a lower roofline and (hopefully) be a little trimmer as well.
:think:

Smaller? Maybe have a lower roofline, but as the current GTO has basically the same dimensions as the Mustang, how can it not be considered a Ponycar?

We need to unlearn the fact that the GTO was once an intermediate. The next Camaro could easily have the same proportions as the GTO, yet be sportier with a lower roofline and (hopefully) be a little trimmer as well.
:think:

Exactomundo. Lower roofline with same or maybe even slightly bigger dimensions seems appropriate to me. G35 = TOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo small IMHO.

Smaller? Maybe have a lower roofline, but as the current GTO has basically the same dimensions as the Mustang, how can it not be considered a Ponycar?


Yup, smaller. The GTO is larger than the SN95 Mustang, which is similar in size to the G35 Coupe.

Every time I see an SN95 or G35 Coupe...their dimensions just seem so right for the next Camaro.

I just don't understand why anyone would want a large Camaro. :confused: :confused:

I just don't understand why anyone would want a large Camaro. :confused: :confused:

Because a camaro is not a Miata. Then again, it's not a mini van either..................

Yup, smaller. The GTO is larger than the SN95 Mustang, which is similar in size to the G35 Coupe.

Every time I see an SN95 or G35 Coupe...their dimensions just seem so right for the next Camaro.

I just don't understand why anyone would want a large Camaro. :confused: :confused:I do!

I own both a SN95 Mustang and a 4th gen Camaro. The SN95 Mustang is TOO small IMO. Even my wife doesn't consider the cars to be in the same class. (She calls the Mustang a compact.) I can not for the life of me get comfortable in the Mustang. Sure its fun to drive... but I now know what a sardine feels like.

The 4th gen Camaro cab size was perfect IMO... at least compared to a SN95 Mustang. :D

I do!

I own both a SN95 Mustang and a 4th gen Camaro. The SN95 Mustang is TOO small IMO. Even my wife doesn't consider the cars to be in the same class. (She calls the Mustang a compact.) I can not for the life of me get comfortable in the Mustang. Sure its fun to drive... but I now know what a sardine feels like.

The 4th gen Camaro cab size was perfect IMO... at least compared to a SN95 Mustang. :D


I was really talking about exterior dimensions.

If the next Camaro has as much...or more interior room as the 4th gen..but wrapped in a tidy exterior package, the size of G35 or SN95......what's wrong with that?

Because a camaro is not a Miata. Then again, it's not a mini van either..................

We're not talking ANYWHERE NEAR MIATA SIZED.

I was really talking about exterior dimensions.

If the next Camaro has as much...or more interior room as the 4th gen..but wrapped in a tidy exterior package, the size of G35 or SN95......what's wrong with that?

Because the G35 is damn near a sport compact car. Who wants a sport compact Camaro? Not me, for one.

Gotta disagree with those of you who want a big Camaro.

I don't feel Camaro should take up the same amount of real estate as a Chrysler 300M, unless we want the car to fail miserably a 2nd time. Big Performance cars with small back seats simply aren't going to sell. Yet well styled modest ones do.

Let's be brutally honest about this. The bulk of this website is made of 4th gen owners. The 4th gen Camaro is the most oversized Camaro ever. The biggest Camaros were in the 70s when cars reached their largest sizes. Camaros were running around 195" back then, yet 4th gens are only 2" shorter in an age where car's lengths have decreased by 20" or more.

The coupe market is stagnant at the moment. Mustang alone outsells all other coupes sold in the US.... not only combined either. Mustang dominates well over 50% of the sports coupe market. Take out Monte Carlo, and it starts approaching the 70% range.

If we get another "BIG" Camaro (a big car with a small back seat), we can start writing the 5th gen's obituary now.

Gotta disagree with those of you who want a big Camaro.

I don't feel Camaro should take up the same amount of real estate as a Chrysler 300M, unless we want the car to fail miserably a 2nd time. Big Performance cars with small back seats simply aren't going to sell. Yet well styled modest ones do.

Let's be brutally honest about this. The bulk of this website is made of 4th gen owners. The 4th gen Camaro is the most oversized Camaro ever. The biggest Camaros were in the 70s when cars reached their largest sizes. Camaros were running around 195" back then, yet 4th gens are only 2" shorter in an age where car's lengths have decreased by 20" or more.

The coupe market is stagnant at the moment. Mustang alone outsells all other coupes sold in the US.... not only combined either. Mustang dominates well over 50% of the sports coupe market. Take out Monte Carlo, and it starts approaching the 70% range.

If we get another "BIG" Camaro (a big car with a small back seat), we can start writing the 5th gen's obituary now.No argument there. The 4th gens are boats. However what I'm talking about is simply a GTO/Monaro chassis with a sportier body and a lower roofline. If they could stuff a 4th gen Camaro-sized interior into a SN95 Mustang sized exterior, that would be fine as well. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guionM


Gotta disagree with those of you who want a big Camaro.

I don't feel Camaro should take up the same amount of real estate as a Chrysler 300M, unless we want the car to fail miserably a 2nd time. Big Performance cars with small back seats simply aren't going to sell. Yet well styled modest ones do.

Let's be brutally honest about this. The bulk of this website is made of 4th gen owners. The 4th gen Camaro is the most oversized Camaro ever. The biggest Camaros were in the 70s when cars reached their largest sizes. Camaros were running around 195" back then, yet 4th gens are only 2" shorter in an age where car's lengths have decreased by 20" or more.

The coupe market is stagnant at the moment. Mustang alone outsells all other coupes sold in the US.... not only combined either. Mustang dominates well over 50% of the sports coupe market. Take out Monte Carlo, and it starts approaching the 70% range.

If we get another "BIG" Camaro (a big car with a small back seat), we can start writing the 5th gen's obituary now.





No argument there. The 4th gens are boats. However what I'm talking about is simply a GTO/Monaro chassis with a sportier body and a lower roofline. If they could stuff a 4th gen Camaro-sized interior into a SN95 Mustang sized exterior, that would be fine as well.

No argument here either. Not only is the 4th gen car only 2 inches shorter than a 2nd gen but the wheelbase is just a hair shy of being 7 inches shorter! I think if the wheelbase is stretched back to say 108 and the external dimensions brought down to say 188 inches overall length without shrinking the internal passenger space and maybe adding some space to the rear given the extra wheelbase - not a lot but some to aid liveability, then we're talking a decent package inside and out.

The bloated length of the 2nd gen car must be post 75 because I'm pretty sure that the earlier cars were only 188 inches long, two more than a 1st gen car. Anyone care to clarify?

If we get another "BIG" Camaro (a big car with a small back seat), we can start writing the 5th gen's obituary now.

Shucks, I said the same thing about the Jaguar XJ-S, another big car with a tiny back seat. Then Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) brought out the XK8, yet another big car with a tiny back seat. Amazingly, the XK8 has been a huge success worldwide, despite being little more than a rebodied XJ-S with an entirely new drivetrain and XJ40 derived rear suspension.

Of course, Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) could have chopped the XK8 down to the size of a Toyota Celica....

Shucks, I said the same thing about the Jaguar XJ-S, another big car with a tiny back seat. Then Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) brought out the XK8, yet another big car with a tiny back seat. Amazingly, the XK8 has been a huge success worldwide, despite being little more than a rebodied XJ-S with an entirely new drivetrain and XJ40 derived rear suspension.

Of course, Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) could have chopped the XK8 down to the size of a Toyota Celica....


Yeah but I don't believe any of those cars have the word utility in their description. The bread and butter V6 Camaro will have to be a sporty transportation tool. Tool being the operative word.

Shucks, I said the same thing about the Jaguar XJ-S, another big car with a tiny back seat. Then Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) brought out the XK8, yet another big car with a tiny back seat. Amazingly, the XK8 has been a huge success worldwide, despite being little more than a rebodied XJ-S with an entirely new drivetrain and XJ40 derived rear suspension.

Of course, Jaguar (Ford :lol: ) could have chopped the XK8 down to the size of a Toyota Celica....

Jaguar had a huge increase of sales in 2002 (62%) and another good year in 2003. But Jags have flatlined this year (down 21% last month), and aren't exactly making money for Ford. ;)

Because the G35 is damn near a sport compact car. Who wants a sport compact Camaro? Not me, for one.


Sport compact? :confused: Sport compact...like what, a Civic or Sentra.. Are you kidding me, or something?

Why do you want Camaro to be a large car? A large car with a small interior. That makes no sense to me.

The Velite's interior space looks to be much bigger then the Camaro drop top.

Why do you want Camaro to be a large car? A large car with a small interior. That makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to most people. That's WHY THE CAR DIED .
A big Camaro with a big interior makes EVEN LESS SENSE - that's a MONTE CARLO!

Big Performance cars with small back seats simply aren't going to sell. Yet well styled modest ones do.

If we get another "BIG" Camaro (a big car with a small back seat), we can start writing the 5th gen's obituary now.

Sport compact? :confused: Sport compact...like what, a Civic or Sentra.. Are you kidding me, or something?

Why do you want Camaro to be a large car? A large car with a small interior. That makes no sense to me.

...The issue is that the greenhouse is too big, directly related to having too much rear seat...


Who says we're going to get a big car with a small back seat? Certainly not PacerX...

Also, how do you know the Velite is a big car with a small feeling interior? You don't, and I'll be willing to speculate that the interior is actually "big" feeling according to Pacer's comments on it...

Can you honestly tell me that the 350Z isn't close to being a sport compact? Have you ever driven one? It looks and feels smaller than even a Cavalier coupe...and the Cavalier is considered a "sport compact."

Isn't this Velite suppose to be a pretty flexible car? Why can't they just tweak a few things to make it seem more Camaro-ish and let it be? You guys are acting like its just suppose to be a badge job.

The Velite's interior space looks to be much bigger then the Camaro drop top.

And the sky is blue??

It makes no sense to most people. That's WHY THE CAR DIED .
A big Camaro with a big interior makes EVEN LESS SENSE - that's a MONTE CARLO!

Agreed, but it will sell better than a Camaro with a small interior...and I'm sure they can do a few things to correct it from feeling too big.

...and no, that is not why the Camaro died, and we all know that.

Say the Velite is ultimately unreasonably too big to be a Camaro...what are the alternatives? We know the next Camaro won't get its own chassis. The Kappa is too small... What about Sigma or Sigma-lite? Aren't those very adjustable platforms? I just think its a little too far fetched at this point to think that it won't be on Velite after all this time that is all we've been talking about. Just because the Velite isn't right on for a Camaro when its shown as a Buick doesn't mean that the platform can't be tweaked for a Camaro.

Can you honestly tell me that the 350Z isn't close to being a sport compact? Have you ever driven one? It looks and feels smaller than even a Cavalier coupe...and the Cavalier is considered a "sport compact."



Wow man...you're all over the place.

First off, you compared the G35 Coupe to a sport compact....not a 350Z.

The 350Z is a 2 seater sports car, considerably smaller than the G35 Coupe or SN95 Mustang we were talking about.

And regarding your question of if I've ever driven one.....as a matter of fact...YES, I have driven one. And let me tell you something.......it feels freaking great to toss a car around that isn't so big that it completely numbs your spatial awareness.

:o Yea I got mixed up...I couldn't remember if it was the 350Z or G35 coupe...Its late :p

I always thought the 350Z and G35 coupe had the same dimensions anyway since their pretty much the same thing. I agree that they do feel great to drive but it just isn't very "camaro-ish" IMHO. A Camaro with G35 is dimensions would make a horrible 5th gen. I would feel offended if they even slapped the name "Camaro" on it. Lets not forget that a majority of the F-bodies life it has been a relatively big car.

I would feel offended if they even slapped the name "Camaro" on it. Lets not forget that a majority of the F-bodies life it has been a relatively big car.


That is false.

Relative to the rest of the cars on the road, Camaro started out as a compact. Even when the 2nd gen grew...it was still considered compact, relative to other cars. The 3rd gen was considerably downsized in 1982.

But as other cars continued to shrink, somewhere in the late '80s, Camaro started to appear large...and the 4th gen was even larger.

A ponycar which is larger than an SUV...is nothing more than a caricature of itself.

Are you sure that you want a Camaro...and not a Catalina?

Who says we're going to get a big car with a small back seat? Certainly not PacerX...

Also, how do you know the Velite is a big car with a small feeling interior? You don't, and I'll be willing to speculate that the interior is actually "big" feeling according to Pacer's comments on it...

Velite most certainly does not have a small back seat (due to the Crown Vic sized wheelbase. However, if the wheel base was shrunk to the point where rear seat dimensions are simular to the 4th gen, it would be a very very short car that would have a very very wide body.

Say the Velite is ultimately unreasonably too big to be a Camaro...what are the alternatives? We know the next Camaro won't get its own chassis. The Kappa is too small... What about Sigma or Sigma-lite? Aren't those very adjustable platforms? I just think its a little too far fetched at this point to think that it won't be on Velite after all this time that is all we've been talking about. Just because the Velite isn't right on for a Camaro when its shown as a Buick doesn't mean that the platform can't be tweaked for a Camaro.

The Velite's length is perfect for a 5th gen. It's just that to the 1st time viewer expecting a Camaro sized vehicle, when viewed at an angle, the car seems big. The reason it seems so big is that it is extremely wide, and at an angle where you don't see the short overhang at the opposite end of the car, the wheelbase is unbelievable. It isn't till you actually look at the length on the specs that you realize that though the car is very very wide, it's length is an illusion.

With those proportions, the car strikes you as much larger than the new Mustang (though it isn't). If the proportions of Velite is the same as Camaro, it's going to take alot to get used to.

But as other cars continued to shrink, somewhere in the late '80s, Camaro started to appear large...and the 4th gen was even larger.

I was assuming the whole last two generations of the Camaro...which would be a majority. So thats still half of its life that it has been far from being a 'compact'. No I don't want a Catalina...but I certainly don't want a wussy compact car either. You can still make a great handling bigger car (look at the CTS-v). I would much rather have a bigger Camaro than a smaller one...but that just my opinion.

I would much rather have a bigger Camaro than a smaller one...but that just my opinion.

Okey-dokey, if that's your personal preference...fair enough.

But remember when I mentioned the overall length of the SN95 Mustang and G35 Coupe?

Camaro enthusiasts should start acclimating themselves to that. ;)


And IMO, it's about time.

Okey-dokey, if that's your personal preference...fair enough.

But remember when I mentioned the overall length of the SN95 Mustang and G35 Coupe?

Camaro enthusiasts should start acclimating themselves to that. ;)


And IMO, it's about time.

None to modest hint there, huh? :lol:

Seeing the Velite had me worried there for awhile.

Originall posted by Z284ever
Okey-dokey, if that's your personal preference...fair enough.

But remember when I mentioned the overall length of the SN95 Mustang and G35 Coupe?

Camaro enthusiasts should start acclimating themselves to that.




I don't see the problem here either. Just because the external dimensions are rationalized doesn't mean that the interior will be so small only hampsters will be comfortable. With modern packaging and the wheels pushed out to the corners there should be no problem whatsoever having a 05 Mustang-ish or GTO -ish wheelbase.

For myself, 108 is a magic number as it was the first gens wheelbase. Besides that puts it between the two aforementioned vehicles. With the longer than-it-has-been-for-almost-25-years wheelbase, and modern packaging, it could be one hell of a spacious yet intimate car with much more appropriate dimensions.

I find it almost laughable that the Camaro, because of it's interior was classed as a compact when it's exterior dimesions screamed intermediate. Well, not quite as laughable as the new Magnum being classified as a truck.

Okey-dokey, if that's your personal preference...fair enough.

But remember when I mentioned the overall length of the SN95 Mustang and G35 Coupe?

Camaro enthusiasts should start acclimating themselves to that. ;)


And IMO, it's about time.

Great, yet another useless "4 seater."


Guy, your last post about how the Velite gives the appearance of "big" is very true, and reminds me of the Buick Y-Job. They did a lot to make the car look "big" when it really wasnt.
The very large front grill, as well as the bulges and everything makes it look like a boat, but again with different sheetmetal with more agressive lines, I think the car will look much different.

And is it me, or is the SN95 much larger then the G35?

And is it me, or is the SN95 much larger then the G35?I believe so. I saw a G35 on the street yesterday. There's no way in H.E.doublehockeysticks a Camaro should ever be THAT small. :irk:

G35 Coupe = 182.2 " in length.
Mustang = 183.2"
Ford Explorer = 189.5"
Hummer H2 = 189.9"
2002 Camaro = 193.5"

You guys don't have a problem with that?

G35 Coupe = 182.2 " in length.
Mustang = 183.2"

You guys don't have a problem with that?That's all the difference?

I'm surprised because the G35 I saw yesterday looked much smaller than my Mustang. However, its TOO small IMO.

2 things with that is the back seat will be useless. SN95's have a very tight back seat, and the G35 is equaly worthess.
I needs to be bigger.

That's all the difference?

I'm surprised because the G35 I saw yesterday looked much smaller than my Mustang. However, its TOO small IMO.


1"....that's the difference. IMO, that's about perfect for a 5th gen, too.

But, don't you have a problem with Camaro being longer than an H2?????? Because, I think it's nothing short of simply ridiculous.

2 things with that is the back seat will be useless. SN95's have a very tight back seat, and the G35 is equaly worthess.
I needs to be bigger.

Why stop there? Let's make Camaro a 5 seater while we're at it. How about a third row? :no:

Why stop there? Let's make Camaro a 5 seater while we're at it. How about a third row? :no:

Yeah, I'm thinking it's too much of a pain to get in and out of the back also. It should definately be a four door.

1"....that's the difference. IMO, that's about perfect for a 5th gen, too.

But, don't you have a problem with Camaro being longer than an H2?????? Because, I think it's nothing short of simply ridiculous.
Forget about comparing numbers and compare what the cars actually look like.

Sure my 4th gen is long, but its still a hot looking car and proportionate for the way its styled. My 96 Mustang GT looks proportionate and its a heck of a lot shorter. The G35 is just too damn small to ever be a Camaro. Yes its the same size as the Mustang, but it looks like a small sports car based on its proportions. Compare the H2??? Why? Its a flippin SUV and a SHORT one at that.

You can't simply compare apples and oranges and you can't base everything on the length of a car that you haven't seen or doesn't even exist (in production trim) at this point.

:irk:

The length is not nearly as outrageous to me as the short wheelbase as a ratio to overall length. on the 4th gen nearly 50% of the car is outside the axles. I think anything at or under 190 inches in length is fine as long as the wheelbase is significantly longer than 101 inches.

Anyone ever notice that since 1967 the Camaro's interior has remained roughly the same size but the exterior has grown by leaps and bounds? And as others have pointed out....all while other cars were shrinking on the outside and growing on the inside.

Forget about comparing numbers and compare what the cars actually look like.


THANK YOU! Z284Eever you gush about how the '05 Mustang looks and feels but in pure dimensions you do realize that the car is a paltry 4 inches shorter (actually less!) than a 4th Generation Camaro, right? It isn't pure numbers of a car; a car can have length if it wears it well. That said, I do feel Camaro needs to tidy up the dimensions. No shorter than 185 inches and no longer than 190. Put the car in that window, add just a touch more usability in the back seat and you've got ideal Camaro dimensions IMO. Styling is a whole other topic.

No shorter than 185 inches and no longer than 190. Put the car in that window, add just a touch more usability in the back seat and you've got ideal Camaro dimensions IMO. Styling is a whole other topic.

Exactly. Read it over and over again until it is understood. :D

THANK YOU! Z284Eever you gush about how the '05 Mustang looks and feels but in pure dimensions you do realize that the car is a paltry 4 inches shorter (actually less!) than a 4th Generation Camaro, right? It isn't pure numbers of a car; a car can have length if it wears it well.


Ummmmm, no.

First, I wasn't gushing about the '05 Mustang...I was describing it. In fact, if you go back and read what I wrote...I believe that I mentioned the '04 Mach 1, Ford had on display there, seemed sportier than the '05 GT to me....when viewed externally... because of Mach 1's shorter length. The SN95 is 4" shorter than the '05. That mere 4" altered my perception of which car appeared more sporty. Frankly, I'd like the '05 better if it were abit shorter....all of it out of the rear overhang.

Second, the '05 Mustang is more than 4" shorter than a 4th gen....the '05 Mustang is 187.6" long...the 4th gen is 193.5".

It becomes more evident everyday reading this board that there will be those that are happy with the new car, and those that hate it because its not "their vision" of what it should be.

However, I am confident that I will like the car as I am pretty flexible. I know the car will be larger than a Cobalt, but smaller than the GTO. Anywhere in there is fine with me. Im actually fine with the car being miata sized. Give me an LS2 powered 2700lb 2 seater and you wont hear a complaint out of me. If it seats four comfortably, awesome. The car will have power, it will handle, it will look good. If not, Ill buy something else.

I dont see any problems with a wide short car, with lots of back seat room. The cramped interior is one of the 4th gens problems. Also if its shorter and wider (like the 05 vette) it will handle a whole lot better (like the 05 vette).

Second, the '05 Mustang is more than 4" shorter than a 4th gen....the '05 Mustang is 187.6" long...the 4th gen is 193.5".

You're right. For some reason I thought I saw the Mustang's length listed as 189.6 but it is 187. Either way, it isn't exactly a small car but I feel pony cars like Mustang and Camaro should have "presence" on the road, thus my 185-190" requirement. You won't get any argument from me about the '05's lack of overall sporty looks. I still say it looks more frumpy than racy with throwback cues that just make it looked tired. But I digress...is this impression in our heads the result of simply its length or is it the styling itself that leads us to our conclusion? :think:

THANK YOU! Z284Eever you gush about how the '05 Mustang looks and feels but in pure dimensions you do realize that the car is a paltry 4 inches shorter (actually less!) than a 4th Generation Camaro, right? It isn't pure numbers of a car; a car can have length if it wears it well. That said, I do feel Camaro needs to tidy up the dimensions. No shorter than 185 inches and no longer than 190. Put the car in that window, add just a touch more usability in the back seat and you've got ideal Camaro dimensions IMO. Styling is a whole other topic.

Although I won't mind if it goes over/under 190" a little bit, I agree 99.99% Everything I was trying to say is right there in your post. THANK YOU! :cool:

But I digress...is this impression in our heads the result of simply its length or is it the styling itself that leads us to our conclusion? :think:

I wonder?

Don't get me wrong...I like the new Mustang. It's not perfect, but I like it.

It's added length over the SN95, however...to me...is a retrograde move, it's a take away, it diminishes it's sportiness. I think the car would have looked cooler if they could have kept the overall length about the same as the old car.

BTW, the '05 Mustang's rear overhangs (which I feel, look alittle long) look about the same as the Lincoln LS. I wonder if their rear structure is the same?

1. Trust me. The thing looks bigger than a Camaro in person.

2. Even a BMW 5 series doesn't have Velite's wheelbase.... and it's over 5" longer.

3. I don't recall anyone slaming the 4th gen's overhang but me. California dips & driveway entrances eat my spoiler daily.

4. Don't do a photochop on the drawing. The drawing is not proportionate to the actual car. You'll do better using a picture of the actual car. :)

OK, how about this?

Original (http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/112_0405_first_velite02_l.jpg)

Mod (http://home.comcast.net/~tang3nt/pics/112_0405_first_velite02_s.jpg)

to me the proportions in my "chop" look right.

BTW, the '05 Mustang's rear overhangs (which I feel, look alittle long) look about the same as the Lincoln LS. I wonder if their rear structure is the same?

Considering that D2C chassis has it's basic roots from the S197 (I think it's S197), then pretty much. There are some major differences, but the overall chassis dimensions are the same.

wow, platform namins all twisted
d2c and sn197 i BELIEVE are essentially the same right now, being that sn is the only version, Think of D2C as the new DEW, since DEW underpins the T bird, The LS, and the Jag. I also believe D2c was based off of dew but made more ford motor friendly, and less expensive, if that explained ANYTHING at all

wow, platform namins all twisted
d2c and sn197 i BELIEVE are essentially the same right now, being that sn is the only version, Think of D2C as the new DEW, since DEW underpins the T bird, The LS, and the Jag. I also believe D2c was based off of dew but made more ford motor friendly, and less expensive, if that explained ANYTHING at all

Didn't I say that :confused:

Didn't I say that :confused:

I think that you meant to say that D2C has it's roots in DEW98.

Heh, either way, it's new!

BTW, I disagree that the new length diminishes the Mustang's sportiness. Just one look at this thing in person and seeing the numbers of its dimensions tells me this car will perform MUCH better than previous versions of Mustang.

I dont see any problems with a wide short car, with lots of back seat room. The cramped interior is one of the 4th gens problems. Also if its shorter and wider (like the 05 vette) it will handle a whole lot better (like the 05 vette).

Dude, we are talking about a honking 75" wide car here. That's wide enough for 2 separate zip codes! Heck, a Chevy Silverado is just barely a few inches wider.

Also, wider doesn't equal better handling. Miatas are great handling cars. Vipers are alot wider than Z06s, yet Z06s handle better. Ever get behind the wheel of a BMW M3 (less than 70" wide)?

However, I am confident that I will like the car as I am pretty flexible. I know the car will be larger than a Cobalt, but smaller than the GTO.

You ARE aware that the current GTO is actually SMALLER than the Camaro on the outside in every dimension but height, aren't you? A GTO sized Camaro (assuming the exterior dimensions don't change) would still result in a Mustang sized Camaro. :)

The length is not nearly as outrageous to me as the short wheelbase as a ratio to overall length. on the 4th gen nearly 50% of the car is outside the axles. I think anything at or under 190 inches in length is fine as long as the wheelbase is significantly longer than 101 inches.
Anyone ever notice that since 1967 the Camaro's interior has remained roughly the same size but the exterior has grown by leaps and bounds? And as others have pointed out....all while other cars were shrinking on the outside and growing on the inside.

I see a consensus developing here. :)

Also, wider doesn't equal better handling. Miatas are great handling cars. Vipers are alot wider than Z06s, yet Z06s handle better. Ever get behind the wheel of a BMW M3 (less than 70" wide)?

What does any of that have to do with Velite? Are you saying the Velite is a poor handling car?

The consensus is always the same "If the fourth gen did this instead of this we would have had a perfect 4th gen blah blah blah" It doesn't matter! We're starting brand new with a fresh new chassis. Any malfunctions the 4th gen had are out the window by now. Wide B-pillars, cheesey plastics, fuel tanks, short wheelsbase, it doesn't matter anymore.

What does any of that have to do with Velite? Are you saying the Velite is a poor handling car?

The consensus is always the same "If the fourth gen did this instead of this we would have had a perfect 4th gen blah blah blah" It doesn't matter! We're starting brand new with a fresh new chassis. Any malfunctions the 4th gen had are out the window by now. Wide B-pillars, cheesey plastics, fuel tanks, short wheelsbase, it doesn't matter anymore.
i thought the whole point of the argument was that if it's near perfect then it's not a Camaro by definition? :confused: :P

i'm sure GM won't let us down by releasing a near perfect Camaro. instead it'll fill it with new quarks and "charms" and we will love to hate those too. the long wheelbase and the big gurth seem to be the forerunners already and the car's not even confirmed yet. fun.

What does any of that have to do with Velite? Are you saying the Velite is a poor handling car?

Adressing Morginie's notion that a car has to be wide to handle, which it doesn't.

It would be ridiculous of me to say the Velite is poor handling since it's a concept car. But I can say that a car 75" wide doesn't have any advantage over a car that's thinner than a car lane.

...the long wheelbase and the big gurth seem to be the forerunners already and the car's not even confirmed yet. fun.

Actually, the car is confirmed.

There was an article in Autoweek in which I think it was Rick Baldick or one of the other execs was asked about a Mustang competitor, and he stated "We're working on it".

I'll look it up and post it when I have time.

I dont see any problems with a wide short car, with lots of back seat room. The cramped interior is one of the 4th gens problems. Also if its shorter and wider (like the 05 vette) it will handle a whole lot better (like the 05 vette).

"05 'vette is NOT wider than C5.

"05 'vette is NOT wider than C5.

In relationship to length dimensions, the C6 is wider than the C5. I think thats what he is getting at.

C5...

Overall length (in / mm) 179.7 / 4566
Overall width (in / mm) 73.6 / 1869 (40.95% of overall length)


C6...

Overall length (in / mm): 174.6 / 4435
Overall width (in / mm): 72.6 / 1844 (41.58% of overall length)

C6...

Overall length (in / mm): 174.6 / 4435


174.6"
Holy Sh!tsky!!!!!!!

That's smaller than a sports compact! How do they expect the C6 to have any "PRESENCE"?

Someone call Dave Hill....they need to add 2 feet of overall length to the Corvette before it fails miserably!;)

Corvette does not = Camaro :p

Corvette does not = Camaro :p

....and Camaro does not = Roadmaster. :p :p

Corvette is also a two-seater .

Camaro is a four-seater .

Big difference as far as overall size goes and feeling "small" or "cramped" for what the car is.... or even it's feeling of "presence". :think:

Corvette is also a two-seater .

Camaro is a four-seater .

Big difference as far as overall size goes and feeling "small" or "cramped" for what the car is.... or even it's feeling of "presence". :think:


Why should it feel cramped?

You can easily get the interior space of a 3rd/4th gen, in a package with modern, smaller exterior proprtions.

And yes....it can have "presence".

Why should it feel cramped?

You can easily get the interior space of a 3rd/4th gen, in a package with modern, smaller exterior proprtions.

And yes....it can have "presence".

You're talking about a Mustang right ;) Bah, I'm really bored :tired:

Why should it feel cramped?

You can easily get the interior space of a 3rd/4th gen, in a package with modern, smaller exterior proprtions.

And yes....it can have "presence".

I really don't want a sport compact....

I really don't want a sport compact....

Somewhere between the size of a Civic and the size of a full sized sedan...there is a WHOLE segment. A segment that encompasses cars with RWD, 2+2 seating and no need for over 7 1/2 feet of total front and rear overhangs. Camaro should be part of this segment.

I don't want a sport compact either. But I don't know what the attraction is, to getting a sport compact sized interior on a full sized car.

Is this what you consider "presence"?

Somewhere between the size of a Civic and the size of a full sized sedan...there is a WHOLE segment. A segment that encompasses cars with RWD, 2+2 seating and no need for over 7 1/2 feet of total front and rear overhangs. Camaro should be part of this segment.

I don't want a sport compact either. But I don't know what the attraction is, to getting a sport compact sized interior on a full sized car.

Is this what you consider "presence"?


No... to me, "presence" is being large enough on the exterior to be intimidating when seen... 3rd and 4th Gen cars had that.

I do not disagree that the overhands need to be shortened... considerably... but that can be achieved with a longer wheelbase rather than choppin gthe length and size of the car.

I few inches? I can deal with that, but let's not go nuts.

The only Camaros I ever felt were too big overall were later 2nd Gens and the 4th Gens. I feel all the others had ideal sizes and weights.

I am for a 185"-190" 5th Gen. A 72.5" width would be nice. A wheelbase of about 106" and 50" from the street to the roof sounds right for a Camaro.

The only Camaros I ever felt were too big overall were later 2nd Gens and the 4th Gens. I feel all the others had ideal sizes and weights.

I am for a 185"-190" 5th Gen. A 72.5" width would be nice. A wheelbase of about 106" and 50" from the street to the roof sounds right for a Camaro.

:blah:

2002 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.1"
Length: 193.5"
Width: 74.1"
Height: 51.2"

1992 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.0"
Length: 192.6"
Width: 72.4"
Height: 50.4"

So, the only dimension that is even potentially noticable to be different between a typical 3rd Gen and typical 4th Gen is the width, which is just shy of 1 3/4" in difference. Every other dimension is under one single inch.... but, yes, obviously... GM screwed up royally with the size of the 4th Gen. :blah:

Both 3rd gen and 4th gen are much too large for a Camaro, in today's world.

Both 3rd gen and 4th gen are much too large for a Camaro, in today's world.


:thumb:

While I do not really agree, I RESPECT the fact that you are not saying one is OK, and the other is not when they are virtually identical in size.

I'm not sure that the dimensions of the Camaros of the third and fourth gens are too large for today's market but the relationship of wheelbase to overall length is certainly out of whack.

Stretching the wheelbase and granting a little extra room for interior comfort without losing the intimacy would allow for a little shrinkage of the overall length but I'm not talking compact class here.

I don't see the Camaro losing any presence if it were in the 185-190 inch range - after all, a fourth gen car is 193.5 inches long.

This whole "presence" thing, is getting alittle silly. As if excessive size is what impresses people and makes them buy....a sporty car no less.

An elephant in your kitchen has "presence'....but you wouldn't want it there.

If Bob Lutz met with the GM strategy board, wearing a top hat and 6" platform shoes...he would most certainly have plenty of "presence"...although, I'd doubt that anyone would take him seriously.

But....take a car about the size of an '04 Mustang Cobra, push the wheels out to the corners, add about 10" of wheelbase...without increasing overall length, give it 19" wheels, a 400++ smallblock and beautiful sheetmetal.....that's real and wanted "presence", IMO.

But....take a car about the size of an '04 Mustang Cobra, push the wheels out to the corners, add about 10" of wheelbase...without increasing overall length, give it 19" wheels, a 400++ smallblock and beautiful sheetmetal.....that's real and wanted "presence", IMO.

That would be the Mustang GTR concept. :p

That would be the Mustang GTR concept. :p

Didn't the GTR have the same dimensions as the production car, just special body work and motor?

That would be the Mustang GTR concept. :p

Except, no ricer add ons, shorter rear overhangs and a modern suspension.

Didn't the GTR have the same dimensions as the production car, just special body work and motor?

As the 2005, yes. But I meant over the 2004.

Except, no ricer add ons, shorter rear overhangs and a modern suspension.

Now now, that wing is fully functional on that car. No different than the giant 747 wing on the C5R and other racecars. Modern suspension is debateable. There are a lot of "modern" cars out there using struts. BMW comes to mind.

Modern suspension is debateable. There are a lot of "modern" cars out there using struts. BMW comes to mind.

Ok, how about struts with a live rear axle. ;)

Heh, save $300 a car!!! :p While it would be nice to have a better suspension, Ford apparently wants to save some bucks. I read a pretty good article on why Mustang is where it is today (in 2005 form). Considering they were behind schedule and getting to be over budget, they had to make some cuts. But don't worry, IRS will come and will certainly be here by the time Camaro shows up ;)

But don't worry, IRS will come and will certainly be here by the time Camaro shows up ;)

The thing that worries me about this, would be ending up with an IRS the quality of the current Cobra (ie: tacked on), rather than one that was designed specifically for the platform to begin with that has a quality like Corvette (ie: designed to be used from the beginning), which is hopefully what a future Camaro would have going for it.

The thing that worries me about this, would be ending up with an IRS the quality of the current Cobra (ie: tacked on), rather than one that was designed specifically for the platform to begin with that has a quality like Corvette (ie: designed to be used from the beginning), which is hopefully what a future Camaro would have going for it.

If you want to see how the rear suspension on a Zeta car will feel just go drive a Sigma car. The differences should be negligable (aluminum parts vs steel).

The thing that worries me about this, would be ending up with an IRS the quality of the current Cobra (ie: tacked on), rather than one that was designed specifically for the platform to begin with that has a quality like Corvette (ie: designed to be used from the beginning), which is hopefully what a future Camaro would have going for it.

Very true and I agree. But with a lot of prelimenary work already done thanks to the Lincoln LS, it shouldn't be a tacked on IRS. Two more years before we see it which should be plenty of time to build it right.

Very true and I agree. But with a lot of prelimenary work already done thanks to the Lincoln LS, it shouldn't be a tacked on IRS. Two more years before we see it which should be plenty of time to build it right.


Ya, I figured the Lincoln LS could help in this area, though it'll be interesting to see how a luxury sedan suspension can be translated into a sports car suspension....

The Lincoln LS already outhandles its class competition (BMW). It should be interesting how it works and what was changed to make it work on the Mustang.

:blah:

2002 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.1"
Length: 193.5"
Width: 74.1"
Height: 51.2"

1992 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.0"
Length: 192.6"
Width: 72.4"
Height: 50.4"

So, the only dimension that is even potentially noticable to be different between a typical 3rd Gen and typical 4th Gen is the width, which is just shy of 1 3/4" in difference. Every other dimension is under one single inch.... but, yes, obviously... GM screwed up royally with the size of the 4th Gen. :blah:

Third Gens ranged from 187" at the begining through 192" by 92. By then, I felt they might be getting too big and that any increase would be too much. The 91-92's redesigned and longer/bigger GFX were a little much IMO, (although I still like them, not that big of a deal, not my favorites though) so the size increase in length, width, height, and weight in the 4th Gen did not really go over nicely with me. Besides that, the rounded 4ths which lack real lines appear quite bigger than the sharply designed 3rds. Regardless, I think 4ths and some 2nds were too big and 3rds and 1sts were good overall. Any size reduction or increase over these dimesions is extreme IMO. I don't want a current M*stang sized Camaro either.

2004 GTO
Wheel Base: 109.8 in.
Length: 189.8 in.
Width: 72.5 in.
Height: 54.9 in.

2005 Corvette
Wheel Base: 105.7 in.
Length: 174.6 in.
Width: 72.6 in.
Height: 49 in.

I would not mind the length of the car shrinking as I feel there is about ten inches of plastic hanging off the front of my Firebird that really doesn't need to be there. A length of 185in would probably be all the length you need to fit the motor, four seats, and a decent amount of cargo space into the vehicle.

With regards to presence, I don't think the overall length of the car is all that important compared to how wide the car is.

Heh, save $300 a car!!! :p While it would be nice to have a better suspension, Ford apparently wants to save some bucks. I read a pretty good article on why Mustang is where it is today (in 2005 form). Considering they were behind schedule and getting to be over budget, they had to make some cuts. But don't worry, IRS will come and will certainly be here by the time Camaro shows up ;)

I read that story too...and found it interesting. I'll let Mustang slide on the $300 savings = no IRS.....because it's Mustang....and maybe I'm not so picky about it.

But, if that were a similar article on the 5th gen Camaro...and some people from GM said that they took away IRS to save 300 bucks........ :mad: :eek:


I would make it my personal life mission to publicly ridicule every last one of those scoundrels, with every last fiber of my being. :irk:

I'm not entirely convinced every Camaro from V6 to Z28 or SS or whatever will have IRS. Does GM even have an IRS that fits on whatever chassis they're going to use for Camaro that even supports 400 hp? While I think GM is very capable of delivering a good IRS, I think we'll have to wait and see what they do on their "budget" sports coupe.

I'm not entirely convinced every Camaro from V6 to Z28 or SS or whatever will have IRS. Does GM even have an IRS that fits on whatever chassis they're going to use for Camaro that even supports 400 hp? While I think GM is very capable of delivering a good IRS, I think we'll have to wait and see what they do on their "budget" sports coupe.

The CTS-V has 400 HP and it is basically the same IRS that Zeta will carry but it will use more steel and less aluminum for cost savings. Not only does it handle the power but it is one of the best road going IRS's available.

I'm not entirely convinced every Camaro from V6 to Z28 or SS or whatever will have IRS. Does GM even have an IRS that fits on whatever chassis they're going to use for Camaro that even supports 400 hp? While I think GM is very capable of delivering a good IRS, I think we'll have to wait and see what they do on their "budget" sports coupe.
You seem to be forgetting Holden/HSV are currently running 400hp through their current IRS. Running more through it isn't a problem as the next revision from HSV may show. I HIGHLY doubt they will go backwards ;). Also I would expect only 1 IRS, as variations = $$$, so most parts from one Zeta car should be compatable with another.

I'm not entirely convinced every Camaro from V6 to Z28 or SS or whatever will have IRS...

Funny you should say that. ;)

I'm not entirely convinced every Camaro from V6 to Z28 or SS or whatever will have IRS.

I am entirely convinced.

The CTS-V has 400 HP and it is basically the same IRS that Zeta will carry but it will use more steel and less aluminum for cost savings. Not only does it handle the power but it is one of the best road going IRS's available.

Steel is a bit heavier and CTS-V is a costly car. How much does the IRS on this vehicle cost??? Even steal will cost money. I think a very expensive CTS-V can cover this cost, but can 100,000 Camaros a year cover the cost of such an IRS system? Can they afford the weight increase of steal instead of aluminum? I have a wait and see attitude on this, I'm still not convinced.

You seem to be forgetting Holden/HSV are currently running 400hp through their current IRS. Running more through it isn't a problem as the next revision from HSV may show. I HIGHLY doubt they will go backwards ;). Also I would expect only 1 IRS, as variations = $$$, so most parts from one Zeta car should be compatable with another.

Backwards from what? Camaro never came with IRS so it can't go backwards :confused: Time will tell. They may have something developed for Camaro by 2008, but will it be cheap enough or light enough to use?

I have a wait and see attitude on this, I'm still not convinced.

There are NO plans for a live rear axle Camaro.

There are NO plans for a live rear axle Camaro.

Mice and men...I hope you're right.

There are NO plans for a live rear axle Camaro.

But there are at least 2 separate types of rear suspensions for Zeta. ;)

But there are at least 2 separate types of rear suspensions for Zeta. ;)

I've heard that.

But whatever plans that are or were for the other...aren't for Camaro.

Steel is a bit heavier and CTS-V is a costly car. How much does the IRS on this vehicle cost??? Even steal will cost money. I think a very expensive CTS-V can cover this cost, but can 100,000 Camaros a year cover the cost of such an IRS system? Can they afford the weight increase of steal instead of aluminum? I have a wait and see attitude on this, I'm still not convinced.

You are thinking about Camaro NOT Zeta! There will not be only 100,000 cars with this IRS, there will be ~500,000 cars with this IRS world wide! Zeta goes much wider than Camaro, keep that in mind.


Backwards from what? Camaro never came with IRS so it can't go backwards Time will tell. They may have something developed for Camaro by 2008, but will it be cheap enough or light enough to use?

Backwards from the current Holden suspension.

They will have an IRS developed for Camaro........... wait for it................. the Zeta IRS! BTW, cheap and light are 2 words that don't often go together in the automotive industry. It is either cheap and heavy, or expensive and light. If you find something that is cheap and light and can be used in the automotive industry i'm sure the manufacturers would love to know about it ;)


But there are at least 2 separate types of rear suspensions for Zeta.

I am willing to bet the other rear suspension will be a solid rear axle with leaf springs that is currently used in the Holden One Tonner and Crewman. There is NO WAY Holden will give up that market to Ford again. Or are you talking about something different? ;)

Both 3rd gen and 4th gen are much too large for a Camaro, in today's world.

2002 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.1"
Length: 193.5"
Width: 74.1"
Height: 51.2"

1992 Camaro:
Wheelbase: 101.0"
Length: 192.6"
Width: 72.4"
Height: 50.4"
1967 Camaro
Wheelbase: 108.1"
Length: 184.6"
Width: 72.5"
Height: 51.0"

I guess then the 1967 Camaro was way to large to be a Camaro in the late 60's as well? :think:

Interesting that the original Camaro had a longer wheelbase yet was a full 8-9 inches shorter. Hmmmmm. :D

1967 Camaro
Wheelbase: 108.1"
Length: 184.6"
Width: 72.5"
Height: 51.0"

I guess then the 1967 Camaro was way to large to be a Camaro in the late 60's as well? :think:



What makes you say that?

The '67 was comparitively small, in an era when cars were huge.

Mustang:
wheelbase: 107.1
length: 187.6
width: 72.1
height: 54.5

Velite:
wheelbase: 114.8
length: 185.7
width: 75.6
height: 51.9

4th gen Camaro
wheelbase: 101.1
length: 193.5
width: 74.1
height: 51.3



1967 Camaro
Wheelbase: 108.1"
Length: 184.6"
Width: 72.5"
Height: 51.0"

The 5th gen would be more along the lines of the "compact" first gen, then the "boat" car of a 4th gen if it stuck to the Velite design. I can live with that. I dont see how the Velite's dimentions are that off. Guy, I think you were just thrown off by its very large design. Scale it down, and make it more agressive, and Im sure it will fit right in with the rest of the line.

The Velite is just about early 3rd Gen Z28 length, being 2" less than it, pretty good with me. Its width needs adjustment, but wide cars look great if done right. It's only about 1 3/4" higher than an IROC-Z also. Wheelbase is too much, but we all would like more interior room. (could use a 4"-6" reduction) Sounds like this can easily be made to be "Camaro" and not the high sedan looking M*stang-like car we don't want. It doesn't sound completely 1st Gen either, a good mix actually.

Since the Velite came out I believed it was too big to make a Camaro. A Chevelle or Monte Carlo would be much better for that size. I also believe GM has shown us a ponycar sized platform, that is the extended Kappa (Curve or Nomad). The internal dimensions are almost right on with what a Camaro should be, and is very close to the dimensions of the first generation, which is what the new camaro is rumored to take after. Here is a little comparision:

The wheelbase of the Nomad and Curve is 107 inches.
The wheelbase for the first and second gen. Camaro: 108 inches.
Third and fourth gen.: 101 inches.
Wheelbase on the Velite (which is the Zeta example) is 114.8 inches

Front and rear track are almost the same as well.
First gen. Being 59 inches, fourth gen. Is 60 inches.
Nomad and Curve are 60 inches up front and 61 in the rear. Again, very close.
The Velite is 65 in front and 66 in the rear.

The height of the cars very close.
The Curve is 49 inches.
The past generations Camaro is either 49 or 51 inches.

I won’t include the width or total length of the cars because that is effected be the shape of the body and the overhang in front and back. I will say the width is close between the first gen. and the Curve, which means it won’t be a problem.

I know the popular opinion right now is that the Kappas can't fit a V8 or V6. This is not correct. It is begining to trickle out that other engines can be put into the Kappa platform. Opel was also considering using a Kappa with a V8. It can and will be done. Just my $.02.

Anyone ever consider that velite may be too expensive of a platform to use for an "affordable chevy coupe"? Kappa could fill the bill and there is plenty of production capacity remaining in Wilmington.

I know the popular opinion right now is that the Kappas can't fit a V8 or V6. This is not correct. It is begining to trickle out that other engines can be put into the Kappa platform. Opel was also considering using a Kappa with a V8. It can and will be done. Just my $.02.

You're right. Word is trickling out that a V8 will fit in Kappa......

But there are certain issues which will make it a non-product.

Look up Sunbeam Tiger for possible evil dynamic characteristics.

I hope its not on Kappa. Im not into the whole 70/30 weight bias deal.
I would much rather see "evolution" and it getting a wider stance, with more useable room inside, but keep the same physical dimentions.
Untill I see a V8 Kappa, I am not giving any thought into a Kappa Camaro.

I hope its not on Kappa. Im not into the whole 70/30 weight bias deal.
I would much rather see "evolution" and it getting a wider stance, with more useable room inside, but keep the same physical dimentions.
Untill I see a V8 Kappa, I am not giving any thought into a Kappa Camaro.

The production version is about 72" wide, so width doesn't seem to be a problem. I also under stand the 4 passenger "Kappa" is about the same passenger space as the F-body. Finally, the engine is set back from the center of the front wheels, meaning if it did have a V8 it wouldn't act like there's an anvil hanging off the front end, most likely keeping most of the weight balence.

But nonetheless, no I don't think it will be the basis of the next Camaro. :no:

Well, I dont want the space of the old Fbody. I think its one of the many leading reasons why it never sold.
Same outside dimentions, if not smaller as previous gens, but a wider wheel base meaning much more room between the tires.

I think Kappa should be kept to its ecotec powerplants and just be a true affordable roadster. I would love to have a Solstice GTP or GXP in the garage for a little fun on the weekends. All the fun of the Corvette, for half teh price.

The old Fbody never sold? :confused: It actually sold very well till GM decided they didn't want it to sell. The cramped interior may have cost the Fbody a few sales here and there, but you definately can't say it made the F-body a failure in any way shape or form.

The old Fbody never sold? :confused: It actually sold very well till GM decided they didn't want it to sell. The cramped interior may have cost the Fbody a few sales here and there, but you definately can't say it made the F-body a failure in any way shape or form.

True, but that's only part of the story.

Camaro sales took an extremely nasty 45% hit in 1996 (123,000 down to 67,000 in just 1 year!) that nearly chopped it's sales in half. It took another very bad hit when it was restyled in 1998. Sales went from 96,000 in '97 to 77,000 in 1998.

It was after the '98s came out that GM decided to cut additional funds for advertising once the year ran out. '99 ran just 42,000, 2001 had dropped to 29,000.

Either Camaro's 1998 restyling was a resounding failure, or the public suddenly got sick of Camaro's hugh size. While Camaro sales in '98 dropped by something like 18%, Mustang sales that year (despite having a design as old as Camaro's) rose by a jaw-dropping 70%! (100,000 in '97 to 170,000 in '98) :eek:

Mustang's '99 restyle dipped sales for 1 year, but the following year Ford sold more Mustangs than any year since 1986, and ranked the 2nd best year they had in 20 years.

I think Kappa should be kept to its ecotec powerplants and just be a true affordable roadster. I would love to have a Solstice GTP or GXP in the garage for a little fun on the weekends. All the fun of the Corvette, for half teh price.


The kappa roadster should keep their ecotec powerplants however, a LWB kappa could and should offer different engines. The LWB Kappa is for a different market segment, more for daily drivers and people who need a back seat. The Kappa roadsters are more for people who want a weekend car for fun.

The weight balance between a Turbo ecotec kappa roadster and a V8 or V6 LWB Kappa since weight is added to the front (engine) and back (rear seats and extra frame and body...)If weight balance was a problem with V8s in small cars, we wouldn't have Camaros or Novas or vettes...Shelby made a living by putting big engines in small sports cars.


Also, did the velite have a roof? I never heard that it did at all and it weighs more than 3400 lbs. Add a roof and that is one heavy car.

I think a LWB Kappa would make a better ponycar and the Zeta a better muscle car ie chevelle, monte carlo...

...Also, did the velite have a roof? I never heard that it did at all and it weighs more than 3400 lbs. Add a roof and that is one heavy car....Keep in mind that convertibles typically weigh more because of the extra metal added to increase rigidity which is required because of the loss of the roof.

Keep in mind that convertibles typically weigh more because of the extra metal added to increase rigidity which is required because of the loss of the roof.

But does it have a convertible roof at all? that would add more to it.

That would also not make the Velite a good example on which to base a new Camaro since it would have a roof and not all the extra metal to make it rigid. What was the weight of the other Zeta concept by Opel?

Doesn't the Kappa use the IRS from the CTS or was that just the concept Solstice. IIRC it at least uses parts from it to help reduce cost.

..Doesn't the Kappa use the IRS from the CTS or was that just the concept Solstice. IIRC it at least uses parts from it to help reduce cost.

Kappa's IRS is a near spitting image of the Corvette's.

Actually, the whole rolling chassis (inner structure without external body panels attached) is a 2/3 scale spitting image of the Corvette. ;)

knew it shared IRS with another model but couldn't remember exactly, Thanks.

Kappa's IRS is a near spitting image of the Corvette's.

Actually, the whole rolling chassis (inner structure without external body panels attached) is a 2/3 scale spitting image of the Corvette. ;)
Sure about that one Guy? I am pretty sure that Corvette is a rear mounted tranny/transaxle using monoleaf springs and Sigma is using a 5 link rear suspension like Kappa.

Sure about that one Guy? I am pretty sure that Corvette is a rear mounted tranny/transaxle using monoleaf springs and Sigma is using a 5 link rear suspension like Kappa.


Vette does have a rear transaxle, and I think Kappa has coil springs. I heard the rear suspension is otherwise similar.

I need to get a better view to be 100% instead of 75. :)

chassis:
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004010358827&mime=JPG
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2003123155200&mime=JPG
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004010359378&mime=JPG
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004051035395&mime=JPG
front suspension:
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004010358805&mime=JPG
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2003123155095&mime=JPG

Either Camaro's 1998 restyling was a resounding failure, or the public suddenly got sick of Camaro's hugh size.


OR, a lot of that could be attributed to the '97 30th anniversary special models. Didn't they cut sales short in '96 and '98 a little bit to sell more '97s? I thought I remember reading that somewhere.

Even then though, '96-'98 sales are still much less than '93-'95...Which, if compared to Mustang sales, you have to take into account that the 4th gen was more of a no-apologies racer than a more "appeal to the masses" type car like the Mustang. I wouldn't attribute much of the drop in sales purely to a resounding failure in styling or even the Camaro's huge size. Although if you couple those together I'm sure they made a small dent.

Insurance and other factors like the C5 being such a huge success made a more immediate impact on sales. 20somethings having their parents cosign on fbodies was a much easier thing before insurance companies started finding out that these 4th gens were monsters in the HP department. And with the C5, I think more older people started to pass up on the "poor mans Corvette". That and the SUV craze made it harder for people to afford a secret weapon like a Camaro. Couple all those things together and I think those make much more impacts on Camaro's sales in '96-'98 MUCH more than the Camaro's size and styling....IMO.

"poor mans Corvette". .


I HATE THAT EXPRESSION...........SOOOOOO MUCH.







Thank You.

Me too!

Unless you're talking about an Opel GT :D

:lol: I hate it too guys ;)