Query to Chevy about Camaro and 2 responses ...

Here is a query about the Camaro I sent to Chevy via their website. I sent it twice and got two responses. They follow also.....

I'm 42 and have owned many chevy
cars and trucks over the years. I
currently own a 2004 S-10, a 2004
Corvette, a 1974 Camaro, and a
2002 Camaro. I have owned 12
Camaros since I was 16, when I was
driving a 1976 Type LT. I was
crushed when the Camaro was
dropped in 02. I hear talk of a
2007 Camaro. I don't expect you to
share any secrets, but I hope it
is true. I hope it has styling
cues from the 69 Camaro, and I
hope its exptremely powerful, and
can be had in convertible form.
Front engine, rear wheel drive and
manual transmissions are a must. I
also wish if a special edition
(say maybe with a 427 enginee)
were offered, that it was made
available to former Camaro
loyalists who can document a car
ownership life dedicated to
Camaros. I like my 04 Vette okay,
but I'm still a Camaro guy at
heart and won't by a other Vette.
For now, I'm saving the Vette to
trade in on an 07 Camaro Z28.
Don't let me down. Thank you.

Response # 1
Dear Mr. Kearney,

Good evening! Thank you for contacting the Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center. We appreciate you taking the time to write us in regards to your comments about the Chevrolet Camaro.

We apologize but there is not a Chevrolet Camaro that will be coming out. On September 25, 2001 General Motors Corporation announced that 2002 would be the last model year for the Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird. Due to the decrease in demand for the sport segments, this decision was unavoidable.

Although Camaro and Firebird have always had focused appeal, both Chevy and Pontiac will continue the tradition of providing performance vehicles with high value.

GM will continue to support the millions of Camaro and Firebird/Trans Am owners with replacement parts, reproduction parts, accessories and technical support through its Service Parts Organization. GM has stated previously that the company is committed to continue operation of the Ste. Therese, Quebec, plant through the term of the current Canadian Auto Workers contract that expired in fall 2002.

At this time, no product has been assigned to the plant after that date, but GM continues to study possible options. Nothing has changed concerning GM's production plans for the Camaro and Firebird.

If you should need to contact us in the future, simply reply to this message with your service request number 1-245342562 or call our Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-222-1020. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.

Again, thank you for contacting Chevrolet.

Sincerely,


Carol Hazel
Customer Relationship Manager
Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center

Response # 2
Dear Mr. Kearney,

Good evening! Thank you for contacting the Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center. I am very happy to hear of your enthusiasm for the Chevrolet Camaro. WOW! What an awesome collection of Chevrolet vehicles such as your 2004 Chevrolet S-10, 2004 Corvette, 1974 Camaro and even a 2002 Chevrolet Camaro. I understand that you have owned Camaros since you were 16 years old. I appreciate you taking the time to write us in regards to your inquiry on whether there will be a 2007 Chevrolet Camaro as you have heard. I apologize for the discontinuance of the Chevrolet Camaro from our product line.

I appreciate your positive comments and I am glad to learn of your satisfaction with your Chevrolet Camaros. Chevrolet has always prided itself on building quality products. We are glad you have found this to be true! We appreciate the feedback we receive from our customers. Your input is vital to Chevrolet as we look ahead to production of future models. We are happy to have you in our family, and we hope to continue serving you in the years ahead!

I respect your interest in the design of the Chevrolet Camaro and the Chevrolet division.

We are interested in your suggestions and appreciate it when customers like you take the time to write to us about them. We value the opinions of our customers and we always take them into consideration as we plan for future models.

I have performed a search for any information on our concept vehicles and I was unable to locate anything on a 2007 Chevrolet Camaro. I did locate some information that Chevrolet has a concept vehicle in the making the Chevrolet SS. You can view and read about this vehicle on our website

www.chevrolet.com/

go to future vehicles on the left-hand side/ drill down on the SS preview for some information on this vehicle. You may also read more information on this vehicle by going to the website

http://media.gm.com/

Vehicle Media Sites/Chevrolet/Concept Vehicles for further information.

If you should need to contact us in the future, simply reply to this message or call our Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-222-1020. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time. I have added your comments in file number S1-245373536. Please refer to this file number in any communication you may send.

Again, thank you for contacting Chevrolet.

Sincerely,

Marie Andrews
Customer Relationship Manager
Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center

Wow. That is the first personalized response I have seen. Congrats!

Also, interesting they point you to the SS Concept...

That top response is recent? The reason I ask is because of the following:

GM has stated previously that the company is committed to continue operation of the Ste. Therese, Quebec, plant through the term of the current Canadian Auto Workers contract that expired in fall 2002.

At this time, no product has been assigned to the plant after that date, but GM continues to study possible options. Nothing has changed concerning GM's production plans for the Camaro and Firebird.

As we all know, Ste. Therese is now gone. That statement makes me think the balance of Carol Hazel's response is a 2 year old blanket letter. Because of this, I would give little to no weight to that response.

The 1st response was a standard GM letter sent to all inquires regarding the Camaro, I believe prior to our e-mail campaign some months ago. That comment about Ste. Therese pretty much verifies it.

The 2nd response was no doubt a more recent and personalized response. It is interesting that she responded positively about a "Chevrolet SS" in the making even though you specifically asked about Camaro.

Being that GM can not officially call anything "Camaro" (even if it's only a concept car) till everything is in place and cleared, and that the SS concept is known to be a "cartoon" or exagerated version of an upcoming Chevrolet performance coupe, I'd say you most certainly have had your question answered!

Gotta read between the lines my friend. ;)

www.chevrolet.com/

go to future vehicles on the left-hand side/ drill down on the SS preview for some information on this vehicle. You may also read more information on this vehicle by going to the website

If you notice on the chevrolet.com website and go to the SS Concept when the the intro starts the first thing it shows is a 70 SS Chevelle. Could they be giving us a little clue to the SS Concept or is GM just trying to through everyone off?

That top response is recent? The reason I ask is because of the following:

Yep. Just got them yesterday. I too was confused about the plant and thought it was an old response.

I hope you're right, guionM. I've got an 04 vette that is not nearly as much fun to drive as my 02 B4C. I'm sitting on the vette to use as trade on a future Camaro, I hope in 07.

It really amazes me that more info doesn't get out about these cars under development. Hell, you'd think the janitors that clean these plants and studios would know enough that they could make money on the info and pictures.

...It really amazes me that more info doesn't get out about these cars under development. Hell, you'd think the janitors that clean these plants and studios would know enough that they could make money on the info and pictures.

GM had a fiasco about 15 years ago when someone did just that and a little more.

Someone smuggled out actual official mock up pictures of the 4th gen Camaro (still 3 or 4 years away) and a proposal for the C5 Corvette (it was initially supposed to be out in '93 or '94), then sold them to Car & Driver magazine.

GM did an investigation that would put the FBI, CIA, and Homeland Security to shame. The got the guy, and made an example of him. Not only was he fire, he was sued for damages and for violating secrecy agreements.

Since then, GM has some iron clad security regarding new products, and everyone directly involved that works on GM's future cars have to sign non-disclosure agreements, giving GM the legal right to go after them if they reveal anything sensitive. GM even sent a general message to all vendors after Delphi let it be known they got the contract to to make 2007 Camaro steering columns (true story).

The only way you'll find out anything from GM is to:
1. Piece information together from clues they themselves give & other sources.
2. Wait till the final 18 or so months when so many people know about the car or are working on it that it's no longer a secret anymore, and GM can't possibly hope to prosecute anyone.
or 3. Wait for Bob Lutz to leak something. Of all people at GM, I'd say Bob Lutz has leaked more things than all other GM executives put together. Especially about cars HE is personally interested in (ie: the 04 GTO, the Solstice, and just about the entire plan of Cadillac's lineup for the next 5 years).

I'm sure I will be slammed, but frankly I don't care.

For those looking for what the 2007 "Camaro" will look like all you have to do is look at the Chevy SS concept car. That is what the Chevy coupe for 2007 will look like. It will take alot of cues from it, especially the frontend that bares a resemblence to the 73 Camaro. It's been in front of your noses all this time. :D

http://www.martzchassis.net/cope.jpg

http://www.automag.be/IMG/Chevrolet_SS_Concept_2003-X03CC_CH013L.jpg

And frankly it will NOT be named Camaro. So go on slam all you want.

Why do you think you would be slammed? Any info is good info.

Why are you sure it's not going to be called Camaro? Do you know something or is it just an opinion. Thanks.

Why do you think you would be slammed? Any info is good info.

Why are you sure it's not going to be called Camaro? Do you know something or is it just an opinion. Thanks.


Because last time I posted about this I basically got called clueless. The fact of the matter is I called everything about the 05 GTO back in January and I'm calling no Camaro for 2007. How did I call the 05 specs correctly? Because Guion and Red Planet are NOT the only ones who have inside info about the automotive world.

How did I call the 05 specs correctly? Because Guion and Red Planet are NOT the only ones who have inside info about the automotive world.

And unless you blantantly show that you do (at risk of revealing yourself or the person who provides the info to you) people think you are full of it. That's ok, their loss... :)

Because last time I posted about this I basically got called clueless. The fact of the matter is I called everything about the 05 GTO back in January and I'm calling no Camaro for 2007. How did I call the 05 specs correctly? Because Guion and Red Planet are NOT the only ones who have inside info about the automotive world.

Just some thoughts on inside info and a future Camaro.....

GM has 326,000 employees. Only a miniscule sliver of these employees have any knowledge of a future Chevy coupe/Camaro. The party line at GM now-a-days is that there will be no Camaro. So most peoples' inside info will mirror this "party line". Information at this point is sparse and compartmentalised.
Even if someone wanted to tell you ALL they know...they may not know ALL there is.

That is unless, you can get Bob Lutz or Rick Wagoner to go out for a night of cocktails.

Just some thoughts on inside info and a future Camaro.....

GM has 326,000 employees. Only a miniscule sliver of these employees have any knowledge of a future Chevy coupe/Camaro. The party line at GM now-a-days is that there will be no Camaro. So most peoples' inside info will mirror this "party line". Information at this point is sparse and compartmentalised.
Even if someone wanted to tell you ALL they know...they may not know ALL there is.

That is unless, you can get Bob Lutz or Rick Wagoner to go out for a night of cocktails.

I agree. But how do you know I don't know Bob. :D

But how do you know I don't know Bob. :D
Do you?

I agree. But how do you know I don't know Bob. :D

Because he's never mentioned you to me. ;)

wow, very cool letter. I think GM is catching on to the email thing, and this could spark someone in Chevy to at least start looking for as much stuff, and push people he or she knows to find more info. I think getting people inside GM enthusiastic about the Camaro is what we need to do. The coupe is coming, but we need to have support for the name. Sending stuff to Mr.Red is a good idea, but also spreading the word about the Camaro and having most of there emails come up with teh title, "Where is my Camaro".

Because he's never mentioned you to me. ;)


It's a joke boys. :D Take it easy.

I'm sure I will be slammed, but frankly I don't care.

For those looking for what the 2007 "Camaro" will look like all you have to do is look at the Chevy SS concept car. That is what the Chevy coupe for 2007 will look like. It will take alot of cues from it, especially the frontend that bares a resemblence to the 73 Camaro. It's been in front of your noses all this time. :D

http://www.martzchassis.net/cope.jpg

http://www.automag.be/IMG/Chevrolet_SS_Concept_2003-X03CC_CH013L.jpg

And frankly it will NOT be named Camaro. So go on slam all you want.HELLO!?! That's exactly what I've been saying all along when confronted by people who believe Kris Horton's 3D model is the 5th gen Camaro. Look at SS_Sharpshooter's version of the Chevy Coupe using the evok style clues and basing it off the SS concept... it looks nothing like the infamous PHR concept. :D

Yes, I agree with Niki and jg95z28; I think that the upcoming coupe will be SS-based and look basically as such, moreso than a 1st gen Camaro-like unit as the PHR article says. Toned down and probably with different tail and front end treatments from the actual concept - or even my take on it. But SS-based nonetheless. It may sport heritage cues but I think it will still be identifiable at it's most basic level as derivative of the SS concept.

It has been voiced that the car is not retro, which is contrary to what the article clearly indicates is the path being followed.

Unlike Niki though I think the Camaro name will survive. I have no foundation upon which to base this assumption but...

Hmmmm, seems like your email found its way to a employee who is also a big Camaro or GM muscle car fan. I have had one or two emails responded with enthusiasm similar to that.

As far as the name game goes, if GM/Chevy can build a sports coupe that excels in all areas and decides to call it Camaro, I can see any modern marketing dept. drooling over the possibilities. 5th most recognized name in the auto industry, years upon years of heritage to draw off of, countless victories in many forms of motorsport, and the long standing rivalry with the Mustang. I guess we shall see what happens.

I think you hit on the most important part of it...

If the '05 Mustang is the raging hit it appears to be (I don't get it, but whatever...), you'd better believe Chevy will counteract it. They know they need something to attract youth-oriented buyers...let the Cobalt SS go to the wee ones :)

Mustang success = new Camaro, at least in my opinion. It almost seems as if GM needs proof there is a market out there...sell 200,000+ Mustangs a year, they'll see it. Chevelle? What's that? Camaro has the recognition.

In lieu of retro, I PRAY the "Chevy Coupe" is not retro. In my office here at home I have 5 old car ads on the wall...a '69 Pace Car Camaro Convertible, an '85 IROC, an '86 or so MC SS, an '89 TTA and a '97 Z28 (naturally ;)). I love all these cars (well, the only thing I REALLY love about the '69 is the color scheme...too old for me), and I pray to god GM never makes one again that looks like any of these...

Then again, I am all for the '04 GTO's styling AS IS...so maybe my opinion is pure crap...

Mustang success = new Camaro, at least in my opinion. It almost seems as if GM needs proof there is a market out there...sell 200,000+ Mustangs a year, they'll see it. Chevelle? What's that? Camaro has the recognition.

...so maybe my opinion is pure crap...


Not only is your opinion NOT pure crap.....it could not be more precise.

Whatever issues are at hand ,that may still be putting the Camaro name at risk....a wildly successful Mustang will be the cure.

Chevelle? Weren't most of those 4 door sedans and wagons?

Not only is your opinion NOT pure crap.....it could not be more precise.

Whatever issues are at hand ,that may still be putting the Camaro name at risk....a wildly successful Mustang will be the cure.

Chevelle? Weren't most of those 4 door sedans and wagons?

Chevelle, 4 door? No. Your thinking of the Malibu.

I would say that the evidence that the SS concept will turn into a Chevelle is pretty strong. From the Chevelle shown in the intro the the fact that in the description the SS is called "the family SEDAN with muscle". The philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was just that; offer the father a family car with performance.

It is my bet we get both. The performance sedan to compete against the 300C type and a new coupe for the Mustang type competition.

I would say that the evidence that the SS concept will turn into a Chevelle is pretty strong. From the Chevelle shown in the intro the the fact that in the description the SS is called "the family SEDAN with muscle". The philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was just that; offer the father a family car with performance.

It is my bet we get both. The performance sedan to compete against the 300C type and a new coupe for the Mustang type competition.

I can assure you that Chevy will not be getting both a "Camaro" and "Chevelle".

I don't buy the 5th Gen looking alot like the SS concept. The same was said by a few people that know what they are talking about, especialy one in particular. Might it have a cue or 2 from that car? Sure, but that would not make the whole car look like it. As for the name Camaro, I wouldn't bet against it. :) (also remember that the name alone means sales for GM because some people will buy it just for what it says on the bumper/fender)

Chevelle, 4 door? No. Your thinking of the Malibu.

Nope....I am in fact, thinking of Chevelle.


http://www.gearheadracing.com/Reference/ProductionNumbers/production_numbers_for_chevelle.htm

Nope....I am in fact, thinking of Chevelle.


http://www.gearheadracing.com/Reference/ProductionNumbers/production_numbers_for_chevelle.htmFWIW, the Malibu listed on the list was in fact a Trim option on the Chevelle. I had a 67 Chevelle Malibu... and it was a 2-door hardtop. :D

FWIW, the Malibu listed on the list was in fact a Trim option on the Chevelle. I had a 67 Chevelle Malibu... and it was a 2-door hardtop. :D

Yeah jg, maybe someone can chime in....but I've always believed it to be a trim level too. My next door neighbor also has a '67 two door Malibu hardtop.

From what I read in Popular Hot Rodding, there are some real legal issues with producing the next Camaro. It has to do with the Canadian Government, the tax breaks, and loans Canada provided for GM. If I remember properly, and I may not, any car with the name Camaro or Firebird was supposed to be built in Canada, at St. Therese, until around 2015. That is when the loans from Canada are to be repaid. I'm not sure how GM is legally planning to get around that in 2007, but the St. Therese <sp?> plant is now nothing but a pile of rubble on the ground. That's right, the place where my 4th Gen and all the others were built is now nothing but a junk pile on the ground.
I can't remember right off hand what month that article was printed in PHR, but it was a pretty good one. Actually, it was the one with the bonus issue of GMHTP.

Yes, the Malibu is a "trim" level on the Chevelle. I belive it was the base trim level. But its the same car, 2,4 or wagon.

Originally posted by Ace1252

From what I read in Popular Hot Rodding, there are some real legal issues with producing the next Camaro. It has to do with the Canadian Government, the tax breaks, and loans Canada provided for GM. If I remember properly, and I may not, any car with the name Camaro or Firebird was supposed to be built in Canada, at St. Therese, until around 2015. That is when the loans from Canada are to be repaid. I'm not sure how GM is legally planning to get around that in 2007, but the St. Therese <sp?> plant is now nothing but a pile of rubble on the ground. That's right, the place where my 4th Gen and all the others were built is now nothing but a junk pile on the ground.
I can't remember right off hand what month that article was printed in PHR, but it was a pretty good one. Actually, it was the one with the bonus issue of GMHTP.

Not to rain on you or anything, but practically everything in that article pretty much was available in this part of the cz28.com board over the past year or so in fits and starts and tidbits. A look around the forums would confirm this. Do a search, this board is a wealth of information - even on something so sketchy and hard as the rumoured 5th gen Camaro to get any info on.

Not to plug another board, but Cheers and Gears has also been a hotbed of Camaro tidbits with an insider releasing styling "what ifs" that spawned the graphic study featured in the article; and others. You will also find members there, who are members here as well, so cross-pollination of info does occur which helps fill in some of the void as far as official info goes.

From what I read in Popular Hot Rodding, there are some real legal issues with producing the next Camaro. It has to do with the Canadian Government, the tax breaks, and loans Canada provided for GM. If I remember properly, and I may not, any car with the name Camaro or Firebird was supposed to be built in Canada, at St. Therese, until around 2015. That is when the loans from Canada are to be repaid. I'm not sure how GM is legally planning to get around that in 2007, but the St. Therese <sp?> plant is now nothing but a pile of rubble on the ground. That's right, the place where my 4th Gen and all the others were built is now nothing but a junk pile on the ground.
I can't remember right off hand what month that article was printed in PHR, but it was a pretty good one. Actually, it was the one with the bonus issue of GMHTP.Actually the article said the loans need to be repaid by 2010. This was going to have to happen regardless of GM closing St. Therese, ending production of the F-bodies, or hell freezing over. The fact that St. Therese is now a pile of rubble (good riddence) may come into play on a future Camaro... or not. I think it will give GM a heck of a lot more leeway in their negotiations for the next CAW contract. Don't forget, GM actually bent over backwards to find a buyer/alternative use for St. Therese. They didn't just simply walk away.

Once the new contract is negotiated, THEN expect the floodgates to open. ;)

Yes, the Malibu is a "trim" level on the Chevelle. I belive it was the base trim level. But its the same car, 2,4 or wagon.

It was not the base trim level. The base trim level depended on the year. Here is a reference:

Chevelle Model Codes (http://cdnclassics.chevelles.net/amemodel.htm)

Here is another good source:

Team Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com)

The gearheadracing.com site is correct in that most Chevelles produced were 2 doors.

Randy

It was not the base trim level. The base trim level depended on the year.


Wasn't Malibu an upscale trim, most years?

Wasn't Malibu an upscale trim, most years?

Yes. Typically it went like this:

1. Chevelle 300
2. Chevelle 300 Deluxe
3. Chevelle Malibu
4. Chevelle SS

4 doors and wagons could not be had with the SS option, but may have had their own trim levels.

Randy

Once the new contract is negotiated, THEN expect the floodgates to open. ;)


Does anyone know when the new negotiations will happen?

Yes. Typically it went like this:

1. Chevelle 300
2. Chevelle 300 Deluxe
3. Chevelle Malibu
4. Chevelle SS

4 doors and wagons could not be had with the SS option, but may have had their own trim levels.

Randy


Randy...you are correct in the names for the early Chevelles. (also, wagons in certain years had their own series names...such as Nomad (what were we thinking???) Greenbrier, Concours, and Concours Estate.

My recollection is that people in the late 60s and early 70s, if they were driving coupes or convertibles would say "I drive a Malibu.." or "I drive an SS-396/454/etc".....not "I drive a Chevelle"....yes, tons of coupes were built, because that's what the buying public preferred. I think one of my friends in Texas put it just right:
"When I hear Chevelle, I think 'hey hon, I'm gonna pack up the kids in the Chevelle and go to the laundromat to warsh some diapers!" (Implying Sedan or Wagon...)

Just my 2 cents.

No....the SS concept will not go into production. Period.

No....the SS concept will not go into production. Period.

Red has given us a scoop, havent seen this mentioned anywhere else. ;)

Correct SS Concept will NOT go into production. But that doesn't mean the next "Camaro" won't use styling cues from it.

I would say that the evidence that the SS concept will turn into a Chevelle is pretty strong. From the Chevelle shown in the intro the the fact that in the description the SS is called "the family SEDAN with muscle". The philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was just that; offer the father a family car with performance.

Actually, the philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was creating a basic form of transportation at a very reasonable price.

Any idea that the Chevelle/Malibu was created with performance in mind from the start is completely and totally wrong. GM (was actually taking performance OUT of cars, and withdrawing from racing when they redid their midsize cars for 1964, and Chevrolet's midsize line was the last to get "big" performance engines at GM.

Sorry to burst the bubble.

From what I read in Popular Hot Rodding, there are some real legal issues with producing the next Camaro. It has to do with the Canadian Government, the tax breaks, and loans Canada provided for GM. If I remember properly, and I may not, any car with the name Camaro or Firebird was supposed to be built in Canada, at St. Therese, until around 2015. That is when the loans from Canada are to be repaid. I'm not sure how GM is legally planning to get around that in 2007, but the St. Therese <sp?> plant is now nothing but a pile of rubble on the ground. That's right, the place where my 4th Gen and all the others were built is now nothing but a junk pile on the ground.
I can't remember right off hand what month that article was printed in PHR, but it was a pretty good one. Actually, it was the one with the bonus issue of GMHTP.

Camaro & Firebird were not supposed to be built there till 2015.

I researched & wrote that article.

It's in the current "September" edition.

...My recollection is that people in the late 60s and early 70s, if they were driving coupes or convertibles would say "I drive a Malibu.." or "I drive an SS-396/454/etc".....not "I drive a Chevelle"....yes, tons of coupes were built, because that's what the buying public preferred. I think one of my friends in Texas put it just right:
"When I hear Chevelle, I think 'hey hon, I'm gonna pack up the kids in the Chevelle and go to the laundromat to warsh some diapers!" (Implying Sedan or Wagon...)

Ahhh!

FINALLY.....someone else old enough to remember what these and other cars really were. :bow:

It's so ridiculous at times reading the posts from some of these people who have a pretty warped (to say the least) view of what most all of these 60s era cars actually were.

The current Malibu is exactly what the Chevelle was in the 60s & 70s. As soon as a firebreathing supercharged Malibu SS hits the streets, you will have a carline that is very similar to those days in mission & market.

I will always remember the moron who said Nova was a muscle car, or the even bigger moron who said GTO's had different bodies & looks than a Pontiac Tempest. :lol:

I can assure you that Chevy will not be getting both a "Camaro" and "Chevelle".

NO...?

It is very likely the next gen of mid-size two door will be rwd, be it called a Monte Carlo or a Chevelle, larger than the next iteration of the Camaro.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesTKirk41
I would say that the evidence that the SS concept will turn into a Chevelle is pretty strong. From the Chevelle shown in the intro the the fact that in the description the SS is called "the family SEDAN with muscle". The philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was just that; offer the father a family car with performance.


Actually, the philosophy behind the original Chevelle/Malibu was creating a basic form of transportation at a very reasonable price.

Any idea that the Chevelle/Malibu was created with performance in mind from the start is completely and totally wrong. GM (was actually taking performance OUT of cars, and withdrawing from racing when they redid their midsize cars for 1964, and Chevrolet's midsize line was the last to get "big" performance engines at GM.

Sorry to burst the bubble.



Sorry, I was refering to "original" in the sense of the first line of cars to carry the name (i.e. the Malibu of the 60's-70's not the Malibu of today), not the first model years of the 60's era Chevelle/Malibu exclusively. I would definately argue that the 300, 300 deluxe, Malibu, SS lineup definately provided a nameplate that catered to every need including performance.

Sorry, I was refering to "original" in the sense of the first line of cars to carry the name (i.e. the Malibu of the 60's-70's not the Malibu of today), not the first model years of the 60's era Chevelle/Malibu exclusively.And so was Guy.

Red's right of course. Back in the day folks did simply refer to them as SS396, SS454, etc... and not Chevelle.
I would definately argue that the 300, 300 deluxe, Malibu, SS lineup definately provided a nameplate that catered to every need including performance.While true, do you actually expect that in today's world, one all purpose Chevrolet model with multiple trim levels satisfying everyone, from the tree-hugger wanting an econobox; to the soccer-mom wanting a grocery getter; to the RWD V8-loving performance enthusiast wanting a new Camaro SS; would actually be cost effective for GM to build and sell well enough to keep it in production?

I don't think so. There are too many other choices in the market for folks to accept this type of blandness. There can be at most two "trim" models for the new Chevy Coupe, not including a special edition ultra performance version of course. ;)

NO...?

It is very likely the next gen of mid-size two door will be rwd, be it called a Monte Carlo or a Chevelle, larger than the next iteration of the Camaro...

..Sorry, I was refering to "original" in the sense of the first line of cars to carry the name (i.e. the Malibu of the 60's-70's not the Malibu of today), not the first model years of the 60's era Chevelle/Malibu exclusively. I would definately argue that the 300, 300 deluxe, Malibu, SS lineup definately provided a nameplate that catered to every need including performance.

As jg mentioned, I was also refering to the 1st Chevelles from 1964. These were not performance cars in the way the "SS" versions became late in the decade. The biggest engine you could get in a Chevelle SS was a 327 till the 396 became available in 1966 (2 years after GTO's success).

There are plenty of people who mistakenly assume that every car from that era was purpose built as muscle cars, but that simply isn't true. As automakers pulled out of racing in the early 60s, their performance departments began using regular production cars as their outlet. Take a low cost, budget, "fleet" or "rental" car, add a strong engine, then run figures that show what the car could do if you bought performance pieces from the factory.

Although hundreds of thousands of Chevelle sedans & station wagons and low level coupes were sold, it's only the high performance version remembered. Why? Because those were the only ones people cared enough about to maintain, or salvage & restore. These were only a fraction of the actual cars sold, but because these are the only ones at shows today, people get the wrong impression that all cars were like this, and that everyone bought them. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Just think, in another 35 years, there will be people who thing ALL Grand Ams were GTs, all front drive Impalas were SSs, and Bonneville GXPs were the only Pontiac Bonnevilles ever made. ;)

As jg mentioned, I was also refering to the 1st Chevelles from 1964. These were not performance cars in the way the "SS" versions became late in the decade. The biggest engine you could get in a Chevelle SS was a 327 till the 396 became available in 1966 (2 years after GTO's success).

I hate to nitpick, but actually, the 396 was available in 1965, albeit in limited production.

Also, the top 327 (L79) engine was no slouch, rated at 350+ hp.

Although hundreds of thousands of Chevelle sedans & station wagons and low level coupes were sold, it's only the high performance version remembered. Why? Because those were the only ones people cared enough about to maintain, or salvage & restore. These were only a fraction of the actual cars sold, but because these are the only ones at shows today, people get the wrong impression that all cars were like this, and that everyone bought them. Nothing could be farther from the truth.


Isn't this the point? It's not what the cars were actually like, but the way the public perceives them.

And so was Guy.

Red's right of course. Back in the day folks did simply refer to them as SS396, SS454, etc... and not Chevelle.
While true, do you actually expect that in today's world, one all purpose Chevrolet model with multiple trim levels satisfying everyone, from the tree-hugger wanting an econobox; to the soccer-mom wanting a grocery getter; to the RWD V8-loving performance enthusiast wanting a new Camaro SS; would actually be cost effective for GM to build and sell well enough to keep it in production?

I don't think so. There are too many other choices in the market for folks to accept this type of blandness. There can be at most two "trim" models for the new Chevy Coupe, not including a special edition ultra performance version of course. ;)

Alright, we are knd of drifting from my original point which is that the design of the SS concept takes a "model for every need" philosphy and puts it in one package. Which fits with what the Chevelle/Malibu line becamen my opinion. Look at the SS concept, you have four doors to make it more family friendly and with a base 6 and a performance 8 or s.c.6 you cover the needs of most pretty well. Now, if you use the Sigma Lite platform (for example) for this car and for the next gen Camaro, you've spread delevopment cost over multiple models (as with the CTS, STS, and SRX).

Alright, we are knd of drifting from my original point which is that the design of the SS concept takes a "model for every need" philosphy and puts it in one package. Which fits with what the Chevelle/Malibu line becamen my opinion. Look at the SS concept, you have four doors to make it more family friendly and with a base 6 and a performance 8 or s.c.6 you cover the needs of most pretty well. Now, if you use the Sigma Lite platform (for example) for this car and for the next gen Camaro, you've spread delevopment cost over multiple models (as with the CTS, STS, and SRX).
However, the suspension of the SS concept is built off Corvette parts. Sure there are Chevelle styling cues, however there are just as many Camaro and Corvette cues as well. Are we going to see a 4-door Corvette, or Camaro? Certainly not. However, if I wanted to secretly develop a new 2-door RWD V8 Chevy Coupe, I could easily add an extra set of doors to throw people off and hide it in plain sight. ;)

That aside, if GM wants their next Chevy Coupe to be taken seriously as a pony car to go head-to-head against the rival Mustang; then it needs to be a pony car. Sure you can have a 6-cylinder base model, and heck why not have as many trim models as the Ford; but offer it also as a 4-door family sedan!?! :dead: You might as well kill the thing before you ever put it into production.

Sure there is a place for performance 4-door sedans, however not as the Camaro replacement. Besides, you're missing the beauty behind the Zeta platform. There can be several variations off the platform from Camaro to GTO to Velite to large 4 door RWD luxury sedan... BUT none of them have to look anything alike on the surface.

Just because they can, doesn't mean they will. :rolleyes:

Correct SS Concept will NOT go into production. But that doesn't mean the next "Camaro" won't use styling cues from it.

Dude...shut up.

This guy has been full of it since he registered on this board, and has been proven wrong time and time again...just look through his history. He always claims to have "inside info" :rolleyes: He just takes what has alreaddy been said in rags and message boards and rewords it to make it seem like its 'news' to any of us. He is a poser and is desperate for attention.

Dude...shut up.

This guy has been full of it since he registered on this board, and has been proven wrong time and time again...just look through his history. He always claims to have "inside info" :rolleyes: He just takes what has alreaddy been said in rags and message boards and rewords it to make it seem like its 'news' to any of us. He is a poser and is desperate for attention.


Oh really???? Proven wrong on what? Poser? LOL!! Attention!! LOL. Get a grip pal.

Hey why don't you ask Red Planet or GuionM about the LS7 being proposed for the next gen GTO's. Go ahead, ask them.

Or how about this one. 06 GTO to possibly be built in Mexico. Ask them about that one also. Poser!! funny, very funny stuff.

Oh really???? Proven wrong on what? Poser? LOL!! Attention!! LOL. Get a grip pal.

Hey why don't you ask Red Planet or Mguion about the LS7 being proposed for the 07 GTO if a good business case can be made for it. Go ahead, ask them.

Not saying you are wrong about anything at all but....why would the ls7 in the gto be news? The ls7 is suppose to be in the next z06 so it would make sense to put it in Pontiacs halo car as well. Even if you are guessing you are likely right.

Oh really???? Proven wrong on what? Poser? LOL!! Attention!! LOL. Get a grip pal.

Hey why don't you ask Red Planet or Mguion about the LS7 being proposed for the 07 GTO if a good business case can be made for it. Go ahead, ask them.


Not that I necessarily take Meccadeth's comments too seriously....and not flaming you....but I don't understand how that statement makes your case.

Not that I necessarily take Meccadeth's comments too seriously....and not flaming you....but I don't understand how that statement makes your case.

All right then I will say this.

1. Official GM memorandum about LS7 business case for 07 GTO
2. 2 GTO Test Mules using the current platform with LS7

Now, If I'm full of ****, Red Planet can say so.

Um.... don't shoot yourself in the foot just to prove a point. :no:

You really shouldn't spill stuff just to prove a point because you get riled up. Even Redplanet was doubted for a long time before he "outed" himself.

If you have inside info, & are right about something, you'll wind up being credible over time as your claims pan out. But never let anyone get your goat (bad pun) over something like that. Take it all with a grain of salt

FWIW (since you dragged me into this): The 2006 GTO will be a continuation of the 2005 (built in Oz), and may even skip a year or a portion of one when it's production ends & is replaced by another. Also, GM engineers often screw together "what-if" cars just for S**** & Giggles. Anything's possible, and I'm sure it's being looked at, but it's not at a point where I'd be willing to post anything about it (LS6 anniversary Trans Ams were farther along).

As for your other claims, I'm not going to touch on them & you can bet the farm that Red's not either.

All right then I will say this.

1. Official GM memorandum about LS7 business case for 07 GTO
2. 2 GTO Test Mules using the current platform with LS7

Now, If I'm full of ****, Red Planet can say so.


Yup and I posted earlier on where they are showing off one of those GTO mules today.

GM Performance Division at the Woodward Dream Cruise
Andrew Charles
AutoReport

GM Performance Division will unveil two new concept vehicles for the Woodward Dream Cruise next week: a modified Pontiac GTO and Chevy Colorado pickup. The modified GTO and Colorado are "Employee Enthusiasm" vehicles, an internal volunteer program that gives younger GM engineers the opportunity to manage a concept car from start to finish. The first public showing for the vehicles will be at a Woodward Dream Cruise press conference Tuesday, Aug. 17 at Pioneer Park in Royal Oak. They will then be on display at Athens Coney Island throughout the Cruise.
The GTO concept has a 6.3 L V8 engine with 500 hp at 5200 rpm and 500 lb-ft of torque at 5000 rpm, matching early rumors about the LS7 for the C6 Corvette Z06. It also has a six-speed manual transmission, modified brakes, bigger wheels and tires and new exhaust. The bright orange exterior features a new hood, fender, quarter panel, spoiler, front and rear fascia and rockers.

The Chevy Colorado concept has a 6.2 L engine that makes 420 hp at 5600 rpm and 420 lb-ft of torque at 4600 rpm, sure to fuel speculation about a V8-engined Colorado. The wheels and tires, brakes, suspension and exhaust systems have been modified, and the exterior has new front fascias, front and rear wheel flares, hood, modified rockers and custom side mirrors.

Your right GuionM, time will tell.

Regards

Yup and I posted earlier on where they are showing off one of those GTO mules today.


Yes, very cool.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2571

Yes, very cool.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2571

A bit off topic, but that has to be the most beautiful GTO I've ever seen. WOW! :eek: :bow: :D

A bit off topic, but that has to be the most beautiful GTO I've ever seen. WOW! :eek: :bow: :D
Yeah but the sad part is it would have been far easier to simply add the cross-bar and bowtie to the Monaro grill. :rolleyes:

Yes, very cool.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2571

About ******* time they made the "OLD" GTO concept into reality...... :eek:

Hey why don't you ask Red Planet or GuionM about the LS7 being proposed for the next gen GTO's. Go ahead, ask them.

Or how about this one. 06 GTO to possibly be built in Mexico. Ask them about that one also. Poser!! funny, very funny stuff.

I'm not sure who you are, but if you ARE a GM employee....or a supplier to GM, you should NOT be talking about the LS7.

We already know about the LS7.

It's 6.35L and makes 500hp and it's going in the Z06 next year. And possibly the GTO and CTSv.

I don't think NikiVee works for GM or a supplier. He just seems to have connections.

And it looks like the next Camaro is going to look like the SS concept car. Which could really be bad, unless they get the proportions right.

I was keeping my fingers crossed for a 7.0 Motor LS7. I find it cool that with .3 liters more, they can get another 100hp.

In other news, and BigBlue just brought this up...Why should you buy a CTS-V when you can get a GTO with the same power for less? I think its time for Caddy to step it up.

I was keeping my fingers crossed for a 7.0 Motor LS7. I find it cool that with .3 liters more, they can get another 100hp.

In other news, and BigBlue just brought this up...Why should you buy a CTS-V when you can get a GTO with the same power for less? I think its time for Caddy to step it up.


One thing it shows is that the LS2 is not nearly maxed out at 400hp in 6L.

I don't think there's any motor to stepup beyond to from the LS7. It's the most powerful engine GM has ever made. I wouldn't worry about it though. Now each division has a halo LS7 car, Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. There's plenty of reasons to buy each one.

I'm not sure who you are, but if you ARE a GM employee....or a supplier to GM, you should NOT be talking about the LS7.

I wouldn't worry about him Red. Remember he questioned both you and Guion when he 1st came here. He probably knows someone who knows someone who works in the tech center, or works for a 1st tier supplier.

BTW Red how hard does the LS7 pull? ;)

I was keeping my fingers crossed for a 7.0 Motor LS7. I find it cool that with .3 liters more, they can get another 100hp.

In other news, and BigBlue just brought this up...Why should you buy a CTS-V when you can get a GTO with the same power for less? I think its time for Caddy to step it up.
Because the CTS-V will hand an GTO it's butt on a road course and also I would rate the CTS-V WAY higher on a visual impact scale.

I wouldn't worry about him Red. Remember he questioned both you and Guion when he 1st came here. He probably knows someone who knows someone who works in the tech center, or works for a 1st tier supplier.

BTW Red how hard does the LS7 pull? ;)Either that or he's the janitor. :D

I was keeping my fingers crossed for a 7.0 Motor LS7. I find it cool that with .3 liters more, they can get another 100hp.BINGO!

427 c.i. just sounds right in a Corvette. :thumb:

In other news, and BigBlue just brought this up...Why should you buy a CTS-V when you can get a GTO with the same power for less? I think its time for Caddy to step it up.

Because their two completely different kind of cars for two different kinds of people? And I'm ussually one to classify a broad range of cars together.

A 4-door luxury muscle semi-prestigeous marquee sedan won't be getting many sales stolen from a more affordable "cheaper branded" 2 door muscle coupe.

Either that or he's the janitor. :D

Yup. That's me the janitor.

I was keeping my fingers crossed for a 7.0 Motor LS7. I find it cool that with .3 liters more, they can get another 100hp.

In other news, and BigBlue just brought this up...Why should you buy a CTS-V when you can get a GTO with the same power for less? I think its time for Caddy to step it up.

Thats like saying why get an M5 when there is an M3 for cheaper.

I say the more performance cars we have the better