Oh Oh! [Archive] - CamaroZ28.Com Message Board

SharpShooter_SS

07-06-2004, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Formula79

From what I was told...Sharpshooters was closer than Chrispey's.

Hey, thanks Branden. That comment is the closest I've seen to "validation" of my specific concept without being confused with, or rolled into comments about someone else's work.

As far as I know, Evok - the insider over at C&G who started this particular ball rolling - never really responded yea or nay with regards to my specific concept when asked (by other posters). All told I submitted three separate versions each slightly tweaked. Not that I am waiting around for a nod from him - or anyone else for that matter. It was just a little side-project that's all. It generated mostly positive feedback and it was good to flex my photoshop skills - it's been far too long. I'm grateful to all who commented - even though it wasn't necessarily for everyone. It's all cool. I may take on a similar project later on, who knows.

In any event, Crispey deserves credit/limelight (if you want to call it that); after all, he was first out of the gate with a drawing based on Evok's guidelines.

Bob Cosby

07-06-2004, 11:47 AM

Regardless of where the credit goes, if the new F-body...err...Camaro looks like that and runs like we all think it will, it should be a big hit. I love the look in those drawings - awesome.

Just wish it wouldn't take another 2+ years.

KrisH

07-06-2004, 02:52 PM

Did someone delete my post? :confused:

Doug Harden

07-06-2004, 03:01 PM

Doubtful....other than the original author, only Jason and Chris can delete posts here..:confused:

Doug Harden

07-06-2004, 03:03 PM

Kris, try a re-post......:D

guionM

07-06-2004, 03:11 PM

BTW: It's Kris that's supplying the artwork that will be in the magazine, not Crispey's.

Crispey is very talented and IMO a fine artist, but I think that for the "Wow" factor (and maybe other reasons) they went with Kris. His 3-D renditions are hard to beat. :thumb:

KrisH

07-06-2004, 03:16 PM

Guion,

Didn't want to say anything about that right away. Crispey does deserve a lot of credit for the work he put in on it and I did my best to get him a mention in the mag as well (not sure if it happened.)

They wanted something a little further along than a sketch, but they wanted it too look a lot like the drawing. That's where I came in.

I look forward to seeing the article, has it been posted anywhere yet or do I have to wait for PHR to come in the mail?

Kris

Silverhawk

07-06-2004, 03:55 PM

Hmmm......

I've been comparing Crispey's drawings to the old Hot Wheels "Muscle Tone" car that came out a while ago. With the exception of the front end and the more Retro rear end curves of Crispey's drawing, I see a great deal of similarity - especially the windsheild and rooflines.

I wonder if the Muscle Tone car actually was a reactionary test bed design for a new Camaro?

Darth Xed

07-06-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Silverhawk
Hmmm......

I've been comparing Crispey's drawings to the old Hot Wheels "Muscle Tone" car that came out a while ago. With the exception of the front end and the more Retro rear end curves of Crispey's drawing, I see a great deal of similarity - especially the windsheild and rooflines.

I wonder if the Muscle Tone car actually was a reactionary test bed design for a new Camaro?

Not trying to open the proverbial "can of worms", but to be honest, a new Camaro that is retro styled after the first gen car is going to have a pretty predictable look to it.

Crispy's, Kris Horton's, and a laundry list of other retro concepts all look pretty much the same... at least in overall theme.

SNEAKY NEIL

07-06-2004, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Not trying to open the proverbial "can of worms", but to be honest, a new Camaro that is retro styled after the first gen car is going to have a pretty predictable look to it.

Crispy's, Kris Horton's, and a laundry list of other retro concepts all look pretty much the same... at least in overall theme.

I agree. They all look very similar because they are so heavily based on the 1st gen Camaros. Smoothing out a few lines here, adding a curve there, a more aerodynamic windshield and there ya have it, a "new" 5th gen. I've said my opinion, I just hope that the 5th gen looks nothing like the drawings we have seen.

jg95z28

07-06-2004, 05:05 PM

Let us not forget that a member of this forum whom also happens to work for the General said that the car "IS NOT RETRO". :rolleyes:

I also agree that Sharpshooter's version met all the "criteria" without being too "retro"... let us hope that its something closer to the mark. :D

Big Als Z

07-06-2004, 05:16 PM

Kris's and Evoks are both too retro for my taste. Its needs more agressive look to it. It looks to soft to be a Camaro in some ways.
IF it was going to be retro, I would hope that GM uses Kris's design. It looks the most agressive.

This was a picture done by the Great Rex Raider for a contest done for GMI.com

http://www.gminsidenews.com/wallpaper/bh8.jpg

slap a different nose on it and I would like for the next Camaro to be close to this.

formula79

07-06-2004, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Darth Xed
What's the difference between them summarizing all the stuff, and the same thing you did a few months ago?

OK for one, but not the other, right? :rolleyes:

Every one of my posts you reply to, you say something negative...so why not just not say anything and save us both the anger.

I wrote my article in September of last year (almost a year ago not a few months), and while something's had been previously mentioned I went into pretty deep detail for that time. Either way, i am not gonna defend an article writeen a year ago.

I just hope that they are publishing late enough not to hurt GM in the naming process, or negotiating with the CAW. If it goes into as much detail as I am assuming it does, I would have personally waited until the new CAW contract was negotiated to put it in print.

formula79

07-06-2004, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by jg95z28
Let us not forget that a member of this forum whom also happens to work for the General said that the car "IS NOT RETRO". :rolleyes:

I also agree that Sharpshooter's version met all the "criteria" without being too "retro"... let us hope that its something closer to the mark. :D

I had someone very in the know point out sharpshooter's artwork and tell me how great it was:)

Meccadeth

07-06-2004, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Its needs more agressive look to it. It looks to soft to be a Camaro in some ways.

I don't think I've ever seen a more aggressive looking Camaro than that concept. :no:

graham

07-06-2004, 07:49 PM

Guys and gals, realise at this time that what you THINK the new Camaro SHOULD look like doesn't matter at this point. We were told that the body design was just short of ordering the molds.

All PHR is trying to do (and some others) is put together the most accurate drawing of what the next car will look like based on what some have seen.

Chuck!

07-06-2004, 07:49 PM

90Z28 SS's concepts are the only one's Ive ever really liked. There are a lot of nice ones and great art work, but his seem to blend a lot of the gens together without getting bogged down. But it seems we wont be going that direction. Lets just pray it's RWD, V8, handles well and sells well.

Raven99

07-06-2004, 08:59 PM

I'm just glad the ball is rolling on this (finally) :) You can put me in the camp with those who DO NOT want to see another "retro" designed car - being the new Camaro or any vehicle. IMO The next gen Camaro should have a whole new, forward thinking aesthetic. Not another regurgitation of a past design theme. I'll wait and see what the actual vehicle looks like and just hope for the best. :)

Darth Xed

07-06-2004, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by formula79
Every one of my posts you reply to, you say something negative...so why not just not say anything and save us both the anger.

I wrote my article in September of last year (almost a year ago not a few months), and while something's had been previously mentioned I went into pretty deep detail for that time. Either way, i am not gonna defend an article writeen a year ago.

I just hope that they are publishing late enough not to hurt GM in the naming process, or negotiating with the CAW. If it goes into as much detail as I am assuming it does, I would have personally waited until the new CAW contract was negotiated to put it in print.

My point, Branden, is that you are so quick to criticize others for things you have done yourself... you have this need to be glorified, and belittle others who, quite frankly, have far more credentials than you do.

I appreciate some of the things you bring to the table.... BUT

Think before you bash other people.

I guess I should expect nothing less from someone who has to have their name in 500pt. font in their signature on their own website.

Chewbacca

07-06-2004, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by formula79
I had someone very in the know point out sharpshooter's artwork and tell me how great it was:)

LINK (http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss_rev1.jpeg) for those who may not have seen his rendering the first time around.

ShadowLord69

07-06-2004, 10:23 PM

I WILL BE POSTING A PIC ALL OF YOU WILL WANT TO SEE
when i can get back to my freinds place to scan it.
it is from a ...freind pretty high up in gm ok. so wait give me a week or so ok.

NJSPEEDER24

07-06-2004, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Chewbacca
LINK (http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss_rev1.jpeg) for those who may not have seen his rendering the first time around.

I was looking all over. Thanks man!

!!!TED!!!

07-06-2004, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by ShadowLord69
I WILL BE POSTING A PIC ALL OF YOU WILL WANT TO SEE
when i can get back to my freinds place to scan it.
it is from a ...freind pretty high up in gm ok. so wait give me a week or so ok.

:confused: :think:

NJSPEEDER24

07-06-2004, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by !!!TED!!!
:confused: :think:

KrisH

07-06-2004, 11:53 PM

I don't want to fuel the fire, but I (mostly) agree with XED. My post that I thought got deleted (was actually an error on my part that it never got posted) was about Branden's bashing on Johnny Hunkins.

Hunkins is doing an awesome job getting news on the 5th gen out there, especially to those who don't read or post on these message boards. GMI, Cheers and Gears, this forum, and many others are not the only places to get this info. Granted, they may be among the first, but I think PHR has a much larger audience and frankly, I think people will feel a lot better about reading it in a magazine, from the editor; moreso than on a website, credible as it may be.

Branden and others bashing the magazines publishing 5th Gen Camaro news need to lay off. All they are doing is trying to help inform people that want to know about the future of the Camaro, You should be thankful that they are picking up on it and getting the news out there and not pissing and moaning about it. It's as bad as people crying "repost! repost!"

Kris

Big Als Z

07-07-2004, 01:37 AM

jg95z28

07-07-2004, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by KrisH
I don't want to fuel the fire, but I (mostly) agree with XED. My post that I thought got deleted (was actually an error on my part that it never got posted) was about Branden's bashing on Johnny Hunkins.

Hunkins is doing an awesome job getting news on the 5th gen out there, especially to those who don't read or post on these message boards. GMI, Cheers and Gears, this forum, and many others are not the only places to get this info. Granted, they may be among the first, but I think PHR has a much larger audience and frankly, I think people will feel a lot better about reading it in a magazine, from the editor; moreso than on a website, credible as it may be.

Branden and others bashing the magazines publishing 5th Gen Camaro news need to lay off. All they are doing is trying to help inform people that want to know about the future of the Camaro, You should be thankful that they are picking up on it and getting the news out there and not pissing and moaning about it. It's as bad as people crying "repost! repost!"

Kris Kris, not that I speak for Branden and lord knows I often missinterpret what people mean around here, however I took what Branden wrote to mean that he wishes that all these leaks on the 5th gen Camaro would wait because right now GM can't even call any potential 2007 Chevy coupe "Camaro" due in part to contractual agreements with the CAW. It may just end up that although a car exists, GM may decide to call it something else in order to save them from paying millions in legal penalties.

Do I want the car to return? Hell yes! However I want a Camaro-styled car that actually can be called "Camaro", and NOT Chevelle, Monte Carlo, or something else.

Sure let them publish info on the 2007 Chevy coupe. But don't call it anything until its "official"... otherwise a year or so from now we'll all be posting how pissed off we are that GM can't call the car "CAMARO".

:think:

guionM

07-07-2004, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by KrisH
Guion,

Didn't want to say anything about that right away. Crispey does deserve a lot of credit for the work he put in on it and I did my best to get him a mention in the mag as well (not sure if it happened.)

They wanted something a little further along than a sketch, but they wanted it too look a lot like the drawing. That's where I came in.

I look forward to seeing the article, has it been posted anywhere yet or do I have to wait for PHR to come in the mail?

Kris

If I came across as dismissive of Crispey's rendition, that wasn't my intention. He gave us the 1st look at the "feel" of the 5th gen. Working with input from people who were involved with the car, he came up with the 1st really good look, & he SHOULD get credit for it.

The article as far as I know isn't posted anywhere, but then again, I didn't expect it to be mentioned for at least another few weeks either.

guionM

07-07-2004, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Kris's and Evoks are both too retro for my taste. Its needs more agressive look to it. It looks to soft to be a Camaro in some ways.
IF it was going to be retro, I would hope that GM uses Kris's design. It looks the most agressive.

This was a picture done by the Great Rex Raider for a contest done for GMI.com

http://www.gminsidenews.com/wallpaper/bh8.jpg

slap a different nose on it and I would like for the next Camaro to be close to this.

It's not a question of "using" anyone's design. Crispey's drawing was done with the input of people who have actually seen the 5th gen. So any idea that one design, should be used, or another design is better is completely moot.

Combined with input of people who post on this website who participated in the styling clinic and an insider or two who post here, the unanimous opinion is that the car is NOT retro! The drawings have the flavor of the car, and the consensus is the front end was nailed, but it's still a rendition, not the actual car. It's not a perfect drawing. The artist didn't actually see the car himself.

Word is that these 2 combined are the closest to the general look:
http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss_rev1.jpeg
http://www.ultimatesimcentral.com/crispey/evoks-camaro-4.jpg

Meccadeth

07-07-2004, 03:29 AM

IZ28

07-07-2004, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by guionM
It's not a question of "using" anyone's design. Crispey's drawing was done with the input of people who have actually seen the 5th gen. So any idea that one design, should be used, or another design is better is completely moot.

Combined with input of people who post on this website who participated in the styling clinic and an insider or two who post here, the unanimous opinion is that the car is NOT retro! The drawings have the flavor of the car, and the consensus is the front end was nailed, but it's still a rendition, not the actual car. It's not a perfect drawing. The artist didn't actually see the car himself.

Word is that these 2 combined are the closest to the general look:
http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/camaro_ss_rev1.jpeg
http://www.ultimatesimcentral.com/crispey/evoks-camaro-4.jpg

I don't know about any1 else, but I still have a few real problems with the car as we know it so far. Those blended mirrors, the weird looking front which tries to be an open-front grill 34 years after that actually looked good, the way too rounded roof, and the fact that the entire car is basically 1st Gen still gets me.

I know people say that the real car isn't retro, but there are people that somehow think the next M*stang isn't either. Is the design of the 5th Gen done? Can it still change?

KrisH

07-07-2004, 05:25 AM

jg95z28,

You hit the nail on the head regarding Branden. We spoke this evening via PMs and I got a fair bit of insight into his thinking. All is well. I was just trying to defend Johnny Hunkins as I have spoken with him and worked with him on several occasions and he is an awesome guy and just as much of a Camaro enthusiast as any one of us. So I just wanted to make sure he wasn't being portrayed as some editor that borrows info from Camaro websites.

Kris

Z28Wilson

07-07-2004, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by IZ28
I don't know about any1 else, but I still have a few real problems with the car as we know it so far. Those blended mirrors, the weird looking front which tries to be an open-front grill 34 years after that actually looked good, the way too rounded roof, and the fact that the entire car is basically 1st Gen still gets me.

Actually I see a lot of second gen in Crispy's rendition as well. I like the blended mirrors. I prefer Crispy's drawing over Sharpshooter's more "bubbly" one, and while the overall theme looks a bit retro you have to remember that neither one of these are the actual car. People in the know say it isn't retro, so I will take their word for it for now. This kind of styling theme is honestly what I expected. There's no mistaking Crispy's car for a Camaro and that's a good thing.

Is the design of the 5th Gen done? Can it still change?

If it changes, it isn't going to change much, unless you want a Camaro to arrive just in time for its 45th Anniversary. :no:

SNEAKY NEIL

07-07-2004, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by IZ28
I don't know about any1 else, but I still have a few real problems with the car as we know it so far. Those blended mirrors, the weird looking front which tries to be an open-front grill 34 years after that actually looked good, the way too rounded roof, and the fact that the entire car is basically 1st Gen still gets me.

I know people say that the real car isn't retro, but there are people that somehow think the next M*stang isn't either. Is teh design of the 5th Gen done? Can it still change?

I agree. We keep hearing that "it is not retro" but at the same time, the drawings that the real car is suposed to look like ARE retro. Now, of course none of these are the actual car and it is very possible that the design can be done in such a way that it won't look retro but at this point I am still worried.

SharpShooter_SS

07-07-2004, 10:15 AM

Personally, of the three pieces I did I would have chosen this one (http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/concept_ss_final.jpeg).

That said, I'm not trying to hijack the thread to cover ground already covered.

If the general consensus of everyone who has seen the car, is that it is not retro, than shouldn't we at least show a little restraint and not go off on tangents and rants about the end of GM and forward-looking design? The one point that is abundantly clear is that not everyone is going to be happy when the car is unveiled. Some to the point of swearing off GM product forever (puhleez, give me a break!), but I suspect that this is the norm when passions run this high for a car (or is it the name that inspires such passion?). Everyone's vision of perfect is different - as it should be.

Reading this board clearly shows that the various iterations of the Camaro to date have their rabid fans and equally rabid detractors. The new one will be the same. Before everyone digs in with their personal views though, let's hold off final judgement until we actually see some sketch, or model, or mule that actually originated at GM.

Kris, I'm curious/anxious to see the results of your toils based on Crispey's work.

30thZ286speed

07-07-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Raven99
I'm just glad the ball is rolling on this (finally) :) You can put me in the camp with those who DO NOT want to see another "retro" designed car - being the new Camaro or any vehicle. IMO The next gen Camaro should have a whole new, forward thinking aesthetic. Not another regurgitation of a past design theme. I'll wait and see what the actual vehicle looks like and just hope for the best. :)

I agree, I am very glad things are starting to come together. I don't have a huge problem with the way the 5th gen. is going styling wise from what I am getting here, I just hope the front end is a little more areo. Of course we are just speculating here and final judgements will be reserved for the real thing.
I would rather see a complete fresh Camaro, but I believe if that were to happen the car would be treated like the new GTO is being treated.

Darth Xed

07-07-2004, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by 30thZ286speed

I would rather see a complete fresh Camaro, but I believe if that were to happen the car would be treated like the new GTO is being treated.

I don't think that is really the case...

GTO was a rush job... and therefore it took a car that was designed for another country, some time ago, made a few tweaks to make it look like a Pontiac, and there it was.

A new Camaro would be designed from the beginning to be a Camaro... and not simply a tweak job on the bumper covers...

PaperTarget

07-07-2004, 12:01 PM

It's funny watching you guys react to the possibility that the next Camaro might be more like the Mustang not just in size and shape, but in "retroness". You guys are all going through the same thing the Mustang people did on their forums when the Mustang info and drawings and what not started to come out. Personally I think GM will mimic the Mustang in several areas (like 67) and it will be a good thing. :p

Big Als Z

07-07-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
I don't know about any1 else, but I still have a few real problems with the car as we know it so far. Those blended mirrors, the weird looking front which tries to be an open-front grill 34 years after that actually looked good, the way too rounded roof, and the fact that the entire car is basically 1st Gen still gets me.

I know people say that the real car isn't retro, but there are people that somehow think the next M*stang isn't either. Is teh design of the 5th Gen done? Can it still change?

took the words right out of my mouth. Even the Ford Exec's dont call the Mustang "retro" in fear of catching the retro backlash. Not saying that I dont trust a certain someone from a distant world, but these pictures arent exactly making me feel good inside. All Im saying is that the 2nd, Third, and 4th gen never looked like a past generation. GM should stick with that.

Z28Wilson

07-07-2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by SharpShooter_SS

If the general consensus of everyone who has seen the car, is that it is not retro, than shouldn't we at least show a little restraint and not go off on tangents and rants about the end of GM and forward-looking design? The one point that is abundantly clear is that not everyone is going to be happy when the car is unveiled. Some to the point of swearing off GM product forever (puhleez, give me a break!), but I suspect that this is the norm when passions run this high for a car (or is it the name that inspires such passion?). Everyone's vision of perfect is different - as it should be.

Reading this board clearly shows that the various iterations of the Camaro to date have their rabid fans and equally rabid detractors. The new one will be the same. Before everyone digs in with their personal views though, let's hold off final judgement until we actually see some sketch, or model, or mule that actually originated at GM.

Couldn't have said it any better. The trick is to make a Camaro that will appeal to the widest audience of Camaro enthusiasts possible, and let ergonomics bring in the rest of the car-buying population. Chevy can't be worried about a handful of guys who want a replica 3rd Gen or nothing.

IZ28

07-07-2004, 01:56 PM

http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/concept_ss_final.jpeg

While I admit that I do like alot of this car, there are still things that need to be addressed with a design like this. Th stupid bar and no middle crease like the other guys' at C&G. While the Camarp never really went back to get its designs, there were always things that let you know that it was a Camaro. I think that GM needs to remember that the average person out there doesn't think 1st Gen when they hear the word Camaro. It's more like they think IROC-Z which was the last really popular and is most well-know "recent" Camaro among the general public. (and the survey proved this, but I don't wanna see a "retro" Third Gen or any Gen, it's more like I don't wanna see just the 1st Gen in the car) Although, more and more people are getting into musclecars newer and from way back, but still.

It's funny watching you guys react to the possibility that the next Camaro might be more like the Mustang not just in size and shape, but in "retroness". You guys are all going through the same thing the Mustang people did on their forums when the Mustang info and drawings and what not started to come out. Personally I think GM will mimic the Mustang in several areas (like 67) and it will be a good thing.

I don't understand how the 5th Gen is trying to be a M*stang. I bet it will still be wider, longer, lower, (even though dimensions will be reduced from the 4th Gen) and perform better in all categories just like always. ;) (that would include looking better too!)

SharpShooter_SS

07-07-2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Z28Wilson

Couldn't have said it any better. The trick is to make a Camaro that will appeal to the widest audience of Camaro enthusiasts possible, and let ergonomics bring in the rest of the car-buying population. Chevy can't be worried about a handful of guys who want a replica 3rd Gen or nothing.

True enough, there's much more to being a Camaro - and a properly executed Camaro at that - than the exterior sheetmetal. Things like performance, safety, useability, affordability, durability and quality. Don't get me wrong, style is very important. Whether it's more or less retro, does it really matter, as long as it says Camaro I can be happy with the result. If the problem areas of the previous generations are dealt with and the package as a whole moves forward into the 21st century at a high level of quality to boot, than what else can we ask of GM?

IZ28

07-07-2004, 02:10 PM

What more can we ask? To style it better!

Bob Cosby

07-07-2004, 02:22 PM

Our likes and dislikes aside, the styling does matter, as in order to survive, the car has to sell. Not to just gearheads (which most of us are), but to a much larger car-buying audience.

This: http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/concept_ss_final.jpeg

Looks awesome, IMHO.

SharpShooter_SS

07-07-2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
What more can we ask? To style it better!

But appreciation of styling is subjective. Assuming the car is an attractive, reasonably aggressive 2+2 coupe in the pony car mold (this has to be a given as a starting point, as far as most people ie: the buying public are concerned before you can start the debate) who is to say what really constitutes better styling? You? Me? GM? Someone else?

My point is that not everyone is going to be happy, in much the same vein you project a preference for 3rd gen cars; despite the fact that there was a follow-on 4th gen car that moved the performace bar forward. For every person who loves 3rd gen cars (for example) there is likely someone who prefers one of the other generations, or flat out hates said 3rd gen cars. I like each of the four generations of Camaro, but I do have favourite model year iterations from each gen. I truly don't like the execution of every model year since 67 and beyond that I certainly prefer TA models for some years.

Darth Xed

07-07-2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by SharpShooter_SS
But appreciation of styling is subjective. Assuming the car is an attractive, reasonably aggressive 2+2 coupe in the pony car mold (this has to be a given as a starting point, as far as most people ie: the buying public are concerned before you can start the debate) who is to say what really constitutes better styling? You? Me? GM? Someone else?

My point is that not everyone is going to be happy, in much the same vein you project a preference for 3rd gen cars; despite the fact that there was a follow-on 4th gen car that moved the performace bar forward. For every person who loves 3rd gen cars (for example) there is likely someone who prefers one of the other generations, or flat out hates said 3rd gen cars. I like each of the four generations of Camaro, but I do have favourite model year iterations from each gen. I truly don't like the execution of every model year since 67 and beyond that I certainly prefer TA models for some years.

All very true...

Which is why it was soooooooo nice to have Firebird offered as a 'styling alternative' if nothing else... don't like Camaro? Check out a Firebird...

PacerX

07-07-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Darth Xed
All very true...

Which is why it was soooooooo nice to have Firebird offered as a 'styling alternative' if nothing else... don't like Camaro? Check out a Firebird...

Too bad GM couldn't give Firebirds away and they diluted the car that the Camaro could have been.

SNEAKY NEIL

07-07-2004, 03:21 PM

I think I am going to have to put my industrial design skills to use and design my own rendition of a 5th gen. It's time for me to shut up and show what I think the 5th gen should look like. I was going to save this for my senior design studio but it might be nice to get a head start.

Darth Xed

07-07-2004, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by PacerX
Too bad GM couldn't give Firebirds away and they diluted the car that the Camaro could have been.

Ya, that's the other side of the coin...

All the money that was spend of Firebird's styling components could have been used on making a better Camaro. And perhaps a more frequently freshened Camaro....

But that all assumes that the money would have been used in that direction, which is not a given.

Last of a Breed

07-07-2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by PacerX
Too bad GM couldn't give Firebirds away and they diluted the car that the Camaro could have been.

True, in some sense, though Camaro didn't sell all that significantly well either. It obviously outsold Firebird, but considering Chevy has an enormous advantage in sheer number of dealerships compared to Pontiac, that could have played a role as well.

I don't want to get into a pissing match or hijack the thread, but as had been stated before lack of advertisements for BOTH cars played a role in the lack of sales.

PaperTarget

07-07-2004, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by IZ28
I don't understand how the 5th Gen is trying to be a M*stang. I bet it will still be wider, longer, lower, (even though dimensions will be reduced from the 4th Gen) and perform better in all categories just like always. ;) (that would include looking better too!)

Ironicly the new Mustang is wider and sits quite a bit better than the older ones. The 2007 Camaro will be very similar to the new Mustang ;) And while the top Mustang outperforms the top Camaro, I digress as that is a topic for another thread and lounge. :p

SFireGT98

07-07-2004, 05:57 PM

http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/cam...t_ss_final.jpeg

This car looks sweet. It has design cues from different generations and its instantly recognizable as a Camaro. Now if they can squeeze T-tops into the equation, that would be even more bada$$.

One more time to the retro-haters. Its been stated that the look of the car "isnt retro" by someone whos seen it. These pictures are most of the puzzle but they still aren't photos of the ACTUAL car. Before we start bashing it into the ground, lets wait for more info and see what turns up. :cool:

SharpShooter_SS

07-07-2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Ironicly the new Mustang is wider and sits quite a bit better than the older ones. The 2007 Camaro will be very similar to the new Mustang And while the top Mustang outperforms the top Camaro, I digress as that is a topic for another thread and lounge.

Isn't this statement really only true because the top Camaro went out of production before the top Mustang could out-perform it? Not to say that the SS would have been tweaked to match the Cobra in any event as that SC car came to market. Still it took a power adder to top the NA LS-1 powered car.

uluz28

07-07-2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by SharpShooter_SS
Personally, of the three pieces I did I would have chosen this one (http://www.helixstudio.com/ssmd/camaro/concept_ss_final.jpeg).

I have to be honest about what just happened...

My wife and I just got done eating dinner and I decided to check this board. I informed her that it appears that the Camaro will be coming back (I used to own a '93 Z28). She kinda rolled her eyes at me like she usually does when I talk about cars :D Anyhow, when I popped up this picture, her immediate reaction was "ooooohhh."

I think this one is a winner :bow:

jg95z28

07-07-2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Ironicly the new Mustang is wider and sits quite a bit better than the older ones. The 2007 Camaro will be very similar to the new Mustang ;) And while the top Mustang outperforms the top Camaro, I digress as that is a topic for another thread and lounge. :p No official word from GM and no official power figures and automatically the top Mustang out performs the top Camaro??? :no:

You must have a crystal ball. :think:

formula79

07-07-2004, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by jg95z28
No official word from GM and no official power figures and automatically the top Mustang out performs the top Camaro??? :no:

You must have a crystal ball. :think:

Top Camaro will not touch the top Mustang again. Ford is going after both the Camaro and Corvette market segments which is why we will see 400+ HP Mustangs. Chevrolet will always keep the the Camaro a step behind the Vette... so a 500HP Camaro will almost certainly not happen.

Now if there was say a limited edition 400HP model with optional AWD :D :think: is about as far as things will go....unless the muscle car market erupts in say 2008-09

However when you look at the cars that are not limited edition such as Mustang GT....Chevrolet fully intends to outpower them:eek:

Z284ever

07-07-2004, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by formula79
Top Camaro will not touch the top Mustang again. Ford is going after both the Camaro and Corvette market segments which is why we will see 400+ HP Mustangs. Chevrolet will always keep the the Camaro a step behind the Vette... so a 500HP Camaro will almost certainly not happen.

Now if there was say a limited edition 400HP model with optional AWD :D :think: is about as far as things will go....unless the muscle car market erupts in say 2008-09

However when you look at the cars that are not limited edition such as Mustang GT....Chevrolet fully intends to outpower them:eek:

I'd say you're right.

There will be no direct Camaro competitor to the top Mustang. Of course, the top Mustang may end up costing around 60 grand, (I believe a Ford exec described this one as the Cobra R). I don't think we really need a $60,000 Camaro, anyway.

As far as all the other Mustangs-- including SE's.....they will be fair game for Camaro. Just a speculative reach.....but I'd suspect Camaro will generally have better chassis dynamics than Mustang. I wouldn't be surprised if Zeta mules are being tuned at Nurburgring as we speak. And by certain people who realllllly know their way around a racetrack.

As far as horsepower goes.....500 is not in the cards. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a version compete with Mustang GT, and another version in the near 400 range....and yet another which handily exceeds that...and is wrapped in a "road race" inspired package, so many of us have been yearning for.

IZ28

07-08-2004, 12:35 AM

I feel like Chevrolet will NOT let the M*stang be better in any model. I bet that when the M*stang's top model comes out that GM will not let Corvettes be beat by it and not the Z28 that will come out later either. The Corvette would have to be moved up and the Z28 would have to be placed at the top M*stang. This is where it should be, letting M*stangs beat Corvettes just isn't right. (or letting Camaros get beat too!)

Josh452

07-08-2004, 12:50 AM

"The 'Stang will not compete with the 'Vette" - not my quotes. While Ford may be trying to position the new 'Stang with the Corvette - it just won't happen.

The new Corvette is going to have it's wings unleashed - courtesy of Mr. Lutz.

PaperTarget

07-08-2004, 10:00 AM

PaperTarget

07-08-2004, 10:03 AM

I'd just like to say that I think both camps are blessed to see two very nice and very new cars coming out. Let the races begin!

SharpShooter_SS

07-08-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by PaperTarget

I'd just like to say that I think both camps are blessed to see two very nice and very new cars coming out. Let the races begin!

Amen to that! Lets hope that the wait won't be too excruiatingly long to renew the rivalry.

jg95z28

07-08-2004, 11:39 AM

Chuck!

07-08-2004, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by formula79

Now if there was say a limited edition 400HP model with optional AWD

jkla;jsdklflsa;kdf :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: I give this idea 3 thumbs up.

formula79

07-08-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by jg95z28
Thank goodness I'm not the only one that "gets it"! :D

Let me rephrase that....the Mustang will compete with the Vette on on the Vette's entry level...

No there will be no 600HP Mustang...:D

Josh452

07-08-2004, 06:19 PM

There will not be a 600hp 'Vette either anytime soon. Not until at the very least the 2006 more like 2007 MY.

z06 is 500hp - 489 tq.

guionM

07-09-2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by IZ28
I feel like Chevrolet will NOT let the M*stang be better in any model. I bet that when the M*stang's top model comes out that GM will not let Corvettes be beat by it and not the Z28 that will come out later either. The Corvette would have to be moved up and the Z28 would have to be placed at the top M*stang. This is where it should be, letting M*stangs beat Corvettes just isn't right. (or letting Camaros get beat too!)

Originally posted by Josh452
"The 'Stang will not compete with the 'Vette" - not my quotes. While Ford may be trying to position the new 'Stang with the Corvette - it just won't happen.

The new Corvette is going to have it's wings unleashed - courtesy of Mr. Lutz. 0

I don't think the picture is getting through quite clear to ya guys here.

Cobra is going after Corvette's performance. Not base Corvette either. Camaro isn't going to perform on Corvette's level. This means Camaro won't be performing on Cobra's level.

Seems you have the mindset that GM simply makes Corvette perform higher and that gives room for Z28 to somehow blast Cobra as if Cobra is a stationary target.

The IS a 500 horse Mustang in the works. There is a 500 horse Z06 in the works. This means that once work is done on these models, engineers will be looking at ways to step up performance even more.... that's engineers from both companies.

You can either deal with it now, or deal with it later, but you will be dealing with it. There won't be a same year top Camaro outperforming the same year top Mustang till Chevrolet drops Corvette or Ford drops Cobra (or whatever they will name the car).

The 5th gen will likely devastate the new Mustang GT. It's very likely there will be a future Camaro that will run even quicker, but the top Camaro isn't going to outrun the top Corvette... and by association, the top Mustang.

uluz28

07-09-2004, 11:06 AM

500hp portly Mustang or one that weighs in close to Z06 territory?

uluz28

07-09-2004, 11:11 AM

...it would also be nice if Camaro owners had the option of adding dealer installed performance upgrades like mentioned before. You could then drive off the lot with a Camaro approaching those lofty HP numbers.

Z284ever

07-09-2004, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by uluz28
...it would also be nice if Camaro owners had the option of adding dealer installed performance upgrades like mentioned before. You could then drive off the lot with a Camaro approaching those lofty HP numbers.

Horsepower is the easy part. Putting that horsepower into an affordable, certifiable package is the hard part.

Unless Ford has some surprises up it's sleeve with the upcoming 6.2L Hurricane....the top Mustang will get a version of the GT's SC 5.4. Just to refresh everyone's memories....this 500-550 rated hp motor is dynoing at about 530 AT THE WHEELS!:eek:

The Cobra R (or whatever it's called), will get a version of this motor....with all the requisite accoutrements to support this power. In interviews...Ford has already pegged this car at $60,000.

Will this car beat the Z06? Probably not. But it will be in the same league. It doesn't have to necessarilly beat Z06, it just has to share magazine covers with it...and be seen in Cobra R vs Z06 vs Viper comparos.

Now everyone say this with me: THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT GM WILL BUILD A CAMARO THAT COSTS AS MUCH AS A Z06, AND IS DESIGNED TO OUTPERFORM A Z06!

EDIT: And all my "deepthroat" contacts indicate that the "Blue Devil" program is currently in a deeeeep sleep.

PacerX

07-09-2004, 11:58 AM

PacerX <---- Not worried.

Whatever the thoughts of others are now, I think Ford should be more concerned with Corvettes tearing the GT a new a$$hole than GM should be worried about a Camaro SS running with a Mustang.

GM owns the economy of scale department.

uluz28

07-09-2004, 01:32 PM

I guess I'll use the wait-and-see approach. I'm starting to question these HUGE HP cars anyhow. It will not be usable on the street by any stretch of the imagination. Insurance will also shoot through the roof before we know it, and people will be killing themselves IMHO. Maybe I sound old, but damn. My car puts down 400HP to the wheels with the shot I have on it and it is "interesting" on street tires...

guionM

07-09-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by uluz28
I guess I'll use the wait-and-see approach. I'm starting to question these HUGE HP cars anyhow. It will not be usable on the street by any stretch of the imagination. Insurance will also shoot through the roof before we know it, and people will be killing themselves IMHO. Maybe I sound old, but damn. My car puts down 400HP to the wheels with the shot I have on it and it is "interesting" on street tires...

You bring up a good point here about these high horsepower cars. The idea that a Camaro has to make such godawful amounts of horsepower to top a Cobra or it's not going to be worth a damn, and that's just plain silly.

If Ford finds it feasible to make a 550 horsepower borderline racing production Mustang costing $60,000 for the street, then more power to them. Who here is going to buy a $50-60,000 Camaro? Didn't think so, so what's your point??? :rolleyes:

The issue here is offering the better car when put against what the other guys are offering. If the top 5th gen has a 350 horse 5.3 V8, so what? The question should be "Does it outrun the similarly priced Mustang?" If it does, looks good & is well made, there isn't a problem.

350 horses in a 3700 pound GTO is enough to go 160mph. There's no need to go any quicker, so there's no need for more horses. On the other hand, lighter weight &/or better torque & gearing will make a car quicker. I have no doubt at all the next Camaro will be quicker than before, and will out accelerate the new Mustang GT, and maybe even have a margin to take on the next "Mach1" or "Boss" as well.

But you have it from 3 separate sources right here. You aren't going to have a Z06 beating 5th gen Camaro just because Ford has a high priced Mustang that will run fender to fender with the Z06.

Even if both Corvette & the 5th gen had the same engine, the Corvette will be quicker. It's a mere 3100 pounds. With the typical heavy weight of IRS without extensive use of expensive lightweight alumunum, I'd be surprised if the V8 5th gen weighs less than the 3400 lbs of the 4th gen.

SFireGT98

07-09-2004, 09:45 PM

In regards to the top Camaro outrunning the top Mustang why should we worry about it? The Cobra R/Cobra/whatever other name is gonna cost $60k. I never considered the other Cobra R Mustang in competition with the Camaro, just like I never saw a ZL1 427 Phase III Camaro in competition to the 03 Cobra.

As long as the Camaro can outperform (in more than just horsepower btw) a similarly priced Mustang, I'm happy :cool: . I can mod my Camaro to chase down faster stock "weekend car" Cobra R's.

Pewter Z

07-12-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by guionM
You aren't going to have a Z06 beating 5th gen Camaro just because Ford has a high priced Mustang that will run fender to fender with the Z06.

Chevrolet is in an odd situation here. Last I've seen at the track/street/internet is the 03/04 Cobra being the Mustang running fender to fender with a Z06. I am 1/4 the car guy that most people on this board are (and about 1/10th the car guy compared to you GuionM :bow: ), but forget the history, forget the luxury and 'status' of Corvette. When I look at 60k and 32k and I see that I get pretty much the same straight line performance I have to wonder. If I put down 60k-65k for a Z06 and I get passed by some guy with a 32k Cobra I am going to be pissed. Yeah, my car may handle better, may have this or that better but is that worth another 30k for a Corvette? Being an outsider of the industry (and someone whom normally lurks here) I see Chevrolet's Z06 Corvette for 60k and this other car that can keep up with it for 32k :eek: . If the Cobra's were priced at 60k *or* the Z06 spanked the Cobra in every contest then I wouldn't think there would be an issue here.

I would love to ask any exec/marketing person/engineer/etc... who works for Chevrolet this simple question:

In this economy with many high paying jobs being outsourced, high gas prices etc... what does the Vette have that's worth double the price of a base Cobra?
Name? Handling? Ride? Comfort? Quality?

uluz28

07-12-2004, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Pewter Z
Chevrolet is in an odd situation here. Last I've seen at the track/street/internet is the 03/04 Cobra being the Mustang running fender to fender with a Z06.

First of all, the 03/04 Cobra does not run fender to fender with an 02+ Z06 (unless that Cobra is modified). I guess the same "odd" situation would apply to Ferrari and other exotics since the Z06 is half of their prices, yet is runs comparable times at the track (twisties and straights).

detltu

07-12-2004, 09:05 AM

Just wanted to point out that the base price of the mustang cobra is 35,485 and the base price of the ZO6 is 52,985(commemorative edition is 57,320).

Doug Harden

07-12-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Pewter Z
.......I would love to ask any exec/marketing person/engineer/etc... who works for Chevrolet this simple question:

In this economy with many high paying jobs being outsourced, high gas prices etc... what does the Vette have that's worth double the price of a base Cobra?
Name? Handling? Ride? Comfort? Quality?

Actually only 9% of the jobs being refered to as being "outsourced" are leaving American soil...saw that stat just the other day.

Gas prices are historicaly not near what they were in recent history.

And finally, YES the C5/6 is worth at least 50% (100% would put them at $70k) more than a hot rod Mustang.

Have you ever been under / inside a C5/6? They are built at a far higher standard and include MUCH more technology than any Mustang will ever have.

Besides, you can get a new C5 right now for not much more (if any) than a Cobra....a no brainer in my book.

guionM

07-12-2004, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Pewter Z
Chevrolet is in an odd situation here. Last I've seen at the track/street/internet is the 03/04 Cobra being the Mustang running fender to fender with a Z06...

...If I put down 60k-65k for a Z06 and I get passed by some guy with a 32k Cobra I am going to be pissed. Yeah, my car may handle better, may have this or that better but is that worth another 30k for a Corvette? Being an outsider of the industry (and someone whom normally lurks here) I see Chevrolet's Z06 Corvette for 60k and this other car that can keep up with it for 32k :eek: . If the Cobra's were priced at 60k *or* the Z06 spanked the Cobra in every contest then I wouldn't think there would be an issue here.

There's a wild card here in all this, Pewter. People by Corvettes because they are Corvettes! :)

Corvette is an inspirational car, and it's fans are a devoted bunch. Also, Corvette is in a different class as far as sales go. Mustang is putting the performance into the Cobra to match Corvette for bragging rights: "We have a 4 passenger Mustang that can keep up with the best 2 passenger Corvette".

I don't see any Corvette buyers deciding to buy a Cobra simply because it can keep up with a Z06. Nor do I see a Cobra buyer being stolen by a slightly quicker Z06.

Up at that price altitude, you are no longer a bargain hunter. You're buying what you want. ;)

Pewter Z

07-12-2004, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by detltu
Just wanted to point out that the base price of the mustang cobra is 35,485 and the base price of the ZO6 is 52,985(commemorative edition is 57,320).

Ok, I have seen 32k somewhere and it stuck, if it's 36k then that's fine (haven't actually shopped for one), I didn't see any Z06 at my over priced Hendrik Chevrolet dealer under 59k (and that may very well be them). Even 52k for a base is still a lot more than 36k.

First of all, the 03/04 Cobra does not run fender to fender with an 02+ Z06 (unless that Cobra is modified)
I have seen a couple of different Cobras beat out Z06 Vettes at the track with my own cryin eyes. Not by much mind you. As far as mods go, I only know one of the owners of the 03 Cobras I have seen beat 03 Vettes (have not seen match up with an 04 Vette) and his car's only mod is tired. the others may have bigger mods, I dunno. The Z06 drivers may be clueless as well, I dunno that either but they did launch pretty hard.

...it would also be nice if Camaro owners had the option of adding dealer installed performance upgrades like mentioned before. You could then drive off the lot with a Camaro approaching those lofty HP numbers.
Agree%100, but they should honor factory warranty on everything after power adders are installed.

For the record, I didn't mean to hijack this thread into a Vette thread, I personally think Chevrolet should build a 35k Camaro that could compete with a Cobra and leave the Vette in a higher class of it's own to compete with a Type R.

uluz28

07-12-2004, 10:39 AM

I have seen strange things myself at the track (where anything can happen). Usually, traction and driver skill plays a very important role. I guess I meant to compare typical trap speed. I have seen quite a few Z06's run 115-117mph stock, while a stock Cobra typically hangs around 110-112mph.

PacerX

07-12-2004, 12:04 PM

One thing to note first:

Serious kudos to Chevrolet, PARTICULARLY MARKETING, for actually LOWERING the base price of the C6 relative to the C5.

Fantastic job.

Second, my fearless prediction is that C6 Z06's have nothing to fear from Mustangs, no matter what they cost. You might get a dolled up Mustang to run with a Z06 at a dragstrip, but that car will get a$$-packed by one on a road course.

Sorry, but the platform just isn't going to cut it. Too big, too heavy, too flaccid.

Now, if Ford wants to make a 500hp Mustang, fine. There is certainly room for a 450hp SS in the mix to play with it - without infringing on the Z06 market - that costs considerably less. On the big end, the Corvette will still lay down the law.

Again, the issue isn't what the Corvette has to be worried about. Corvettes make money and they have the huge economy of scale of GM behind them.

The issue is what the Ford GT has to be worried about for TWICE the price of a top-shelf Corvette...

Here's a final point:

Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.

guionM

07-12-2004, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by PacerX
...Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.

GM no doubt won't be beat on a powertrain vs cost to manufacture standpoint. It takes a handmade Cobra engine to equal the LS6 (I know Cobra puts out 30 more actual horses, but go with me here). So not only is Cobra's DOHC blown engine inherently more expensive, it costs more to make on the assembly line due to it's "special" assembly process, cool as it may be.

However, a company like Ford can make up a substantial portion of that in marketing.

ProudPony

07-12-2004, 03:09 PM

TWO POINTS...

First - Please understand there is a difference between a future $60k Cobra-R and the $32K SVT Cobra... We seem to be throwing the two into a common pile here lately in this thread.

Second - The common SVT Cobra will - from this day forward - be placed in competition with the base Corvette on performance. New "Cobra" should be at or below $40k MSRP. The goal is to offer 2 more seats and a reduced price, but offer roughly equal straightline and at least competitive cornering (though granted a MacPherson strutted car will never hold equal to a lighter, longer car with true upper/lower control arms).

Comparing the Top Mustang (be it Cobra-R or GT500) to a Z06 is wrong - NOT what either manufacturer is after.

Originally posted by PacerX
One thing to note first:

Serious kudos to Chevrolet, PARTICULARLY MARKETING, for actually LOWERING the base price of the C6 relative to the C5.

Fantastic job.
I agree 100%. I also think Ford gets an equal pat on the back for totally redesigning the Mustang and not throwing the price out the window too. Maybe this says something for the US automakers waking up and smelling the coffee?

Second, my fearless prediction is that C6 Z06's have nothing to fear from Mustangs, no matter what they cost. You might get a dolled up Mustang to run with a Z06 at a dragstrip, but that car will get a$$-packed by one on a road course.

Sorry, but the platform just isn't going to cut it. Too big, too heavy, too flaccid.
I agree 100% - again. At least when it comes to Mustangs...
Now don't forget the Z06 is Chevy's halo. Ford is now feilding the GT as their halo which, as I recall, not only a$$packed the Z06 embarassingly, but also the Ferrari, Lambo, and even the vaunted Porsche - most of the latter costing 2-3 times what (the pricey) GT costs. And it did it with the blown 5.4 we were talking about earlier, not some 600hp future wet dream. So let's doll out the a$$packings with some discretion, OK? :D

Now, if Ford wants to make a 500hp Mustang, fine. There is certainly room for a 450hp SS in the mix to play with it - without infringing on the Z06 market - that costs considerably less. On the big end, the Corvette will still lay down the law.
If that's what happens, OK by me. Personally, I'd rather see the Z/28 and the GT350 both weigh in at about 3300lbs, and sporting 400hp under the hood - no more.
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.
In all honesty, let Cobra go to the next level, and set Camaro RS, SS, and Z/28 sights on Mustang GT, Mach 1, and Boss - say it with me...let the Cobra go...

Again, the issue isn't what the Corvette has to be worried about. Corvettes make money and they have the huge economy of scale of GM behind them.
The issue isn't what the Mustang has to be worried about. Mustangs make money and they have the huge economy of scale of Ford behind them.

So what's our point?

The issue is what the Ford GT has to be worried about for TWICE the price of a top-shelf Corvette...
Right now and through the 2007 MY, I'd say ... hmmmm... NOTHING MUCH except making production and deliveries as fast as orders piled in!

Here's a final point:

Economy of scale means that for a given price point, GM can afford to put a more powerful powertrain in a vehicle than any other manufacturer as long as that powertrain can share components with the trucks or large parts of the passenger car volume.
So what you're saying is that if Ford was to build a 5.4 for it's truck line, then it could share some of the parts with a blown 5.4 identical to the one used in the GT? OK, great, I'll get right on it! Oh wait, they already do, don't they? In fact, they have been offering blown 5.4's for some time now in L's and Harley-Davidson models. Oh well, HARDLY EVER see one of those on the road eh, much less an F150 or Expedition with an N/A Triton 5.4 - you know, the BEST-SELLING TRUCK IN THE WORLD at nearly 1-million/year with a few hundred thousand more SuperDutys, Vans, Navigators and Expeditions thrown in for good measure.

Your point is WELL made, but you yourself must admit that economy of scale is just that... economy of SCALE. Can't see the Vette benefitting from anything the Mustang or Cobra doesn't, except the commitment to be a technological test bed for GM, which does have it's own benefits.

You wanna know the truth...
GM and Ford BOTH better keep sharp eyes on DCM - THAT'S where the sleepers are popping up and they are kicking major @$$ over there.

My $.05 w/$.03 change. :cool:

hp_nut

07-12-2004, 04:43 PM

The Z06 is not going to match the GT. Not even close. It's slated to make 475-500hp flywheel. The GT dynos ~530 at the REAR WHEELS.

The $45K 2007 SVT Mustang Cobra will trounce the LS2 Vette and probably come close to the 7L Z06.

There's no room for a 450hp Camaro because who the hell is going to explain why a 450hp Camaro costs less than the 400hp Vette sitting next to it? Shoot, the best you can hope for is Chevy simply says the Camaro Z/28 makes 375 when it really makes whatever the base Vette does. Just like before.

I see a REAL 330-350hp SS 5.3 that will compete with the stang GT and the 6.0 400hp Z/28 that will go up against the SE stangs with NA 5.4 motors. If we simply remove the SVT Cobra from the picture, the Camaro should do fine against the stangs.

Chris 96 WS6

07-12-2004, 04:48 PM

We've been over this. The Z06 is going to be 300-400 lbs lighter than the GT..that's as good as having 30-40 more HP. The Z06 may not match the GT but its going to be a helluva lot closer than most Ford apologists are willing to admit.

ADV1

07-12-2004, 05:59 PM

GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.

If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???

Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.

0toinsanein5.4sec

07-12-2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by ADV1

If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???
Because the costs extra money and time. And probably too much money to make it worth it

Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.
The GT is designed to go after the 360 Modena and Lambo Gallardo as its main two characters. you dont go after your competitor costing more than twice as much. and have a total different layout

detltu

07-12-2004, 07:23 PM

This thread has gone in an entirely different direction.

Antz97ZNJ

07-12-2004, 07:39 PM

I would get too excited yet

Chris 96 WS6

07-12-2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by detltu
This thread has gone in an entirely different direction.

Yup....from my observation, these threads turn south anytime one of two things happens:

1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or

2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.

I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.

guionM

07-12-2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by ADV1
GM guys (and the rest of the world) need to get over the fact that Cobra is going to a different class - it's no longer touted as a "Mustang", even in Ford's own literature. The Cobra even has it's own brochure.

If Ford really wants this to be a different car then why don't they design a specific "Cobra" Chassis/body??? I mean if they really want this to be a 4 seat Corvette why not do it right???

Ford built their GT for as a direct competitor of Corvette, Viper and to some extent the Exotics. This is now their halo car so why not let the Mustang do it's duties where its really good at... Ford can still do their SVT models and such but if they want to step up to a 4 seat Corvette version I think they need to built a specific model around it.

1. Why does Ford need to go to the expense of building a separate chassis & body for the Cobra, when Cobra has never had that before??

The idea with the original Mustang Cobras were to take a Mustang & make it run with Corvettes. That's exactly where Ford has/is taking the current and the future version.

2. The Ford GT was NEVER, EVER, EVER, NEVEREVER intended to be a direct competitor to the Corvette. The purpose of the Ford GT is to create an American exotic car that out-performs exotics at a far lower price, and to be a showcase car for the Ford Motor company. The Corvette wasn't even on the table. Ferraris were.

The Viper was initially created as a "Rally-around-Chrysler" car. Chrysler did the Viper on the whim of Bob Lutz, Bob Eaton, and a few other Chrysler executives who thought it would be a neat idea to showcase their new Chrysler V10 in a modern day Cobra. Viper was intended to be in production for just a few years, but did far better than Chrysler intended. The thing actually made money!

The newer version has some of the rough edges of the original ironed out, and today, by accident or association, it's also called an exotic. But unlike exotics like the Ford GT, or the assorted Ferrari or Lamborgini (whose car will only rarely see the driveway, let alone the street), Viper owners actually drive & race their cars regularly.

So, it can be said that price aside, Viper is closer to the Corvette Z06 than it is to the Ford GT, while the GT is in the same class as foreign exotics, which Corvette isn't.

guionM

07-12-2004, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by detltu
This thread has gone in an entirely different direction.

Yep. Funny how that happens, huh? :lol:

SFireGT98

07-12-2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Yup....from my observation, these threads turn south anytime one of two things happens:

1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or

2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.

I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.

I agree. I like GM alot but I also like Fords quite a bit too. Its good to hear about all the variations of Mustang that are gonna come out. I think its a great idea that GM should follow with the Camaro, but they wont, Camaro is not GM's baby, Corvette is. And one thing I know GM will do is make sure the Vette is ahead of alot of the blue oval performance stuff. Meanwhile Ford is busy cooking up a Vette competitor. I dont think many other companies if any share a rivalry as close and sometimes bitter as GM and Ford do.

In regards to the GT, like Chis said, the GT will outpower the Z06, but its gonna be carrying a ghetto booty around with it. I was very dissappointed with the weight figures when the GT came out. IMO, its a tad too much. And that very reason will be the problem when Z06's that cost less than half their price run with them, because the Z06 is gonna be lighter. Quite a bit lighter if the rumors turn out to be half true.

Back to the original topic and hoping that the FordvsGM thing dies off with both parties accepting the fact that their favorite companies are going to be producing some great products in the future, whos gonna be buying that sept. issue of PHR?

:p

ProudPony

07-12-2004, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.

I cry foul to this statement, but dismiss the rest of the post WITH CREDIT because it was taken as an opinion.

Here's why I take exception to the statement above...
This is probably the BEST forum on the web for ALL NEW CARS and even some history about old ones. I could care less if it was called "Bob's Car Spot" or anything else. I commend the admin of this site for changing the name a while back to include "future vehicles", and I think they are wise to entertain the notion of all makes and models, new and old in this forum.

Now personally, I PREFER this forum over Stangnet and others for the honest and typically unbiased reports and opinions we often read in here. I get sick and tired of hearing "Ford will be faster" or "Mustangs rule!" on those boards. Most of the posters on those boards are severely jaded towards thier marque, just like a few are in this forum - and I think it reaks, so I typically don't hang out in those places.

Last comment - If the GM loyalists (I prefer that to apologists myself) want to rant and rave and talk BS about Ford or any other make - simply go to another forum (like the lounge) and you will never hear a word from me! I don't/won't go there - there is nothing in there for me I can't get in spades in Stangnet's lounge (don't go there much either).

But can we not agree that this forum is indeed one of the best on the web - regardless of it's origin as a GM-based site - and let it go at that? All I want to see is what's coming out with some good discussion about it. I'll defend Ford's position if I feel it is being raked unfairly, but I'm not a troll or a gloat. I don't often get involved in pi$$ing contests, but I will challenge a claim from time to time - stuff like that keeps us honest and makes this site great IMO.

OK - nuff said.
Now, explain to me how you get "off-topic" when the thread is titled "Oh-Oh!"?!?! :thumb:

Chris 96 WS6

07-12-2004, 10:10 PM

I agree this is the best forum of its kind on the web, but you must take the context in to account..that it is on a site name CAMAROZ28.com.

I use the term apologists because there seems to be a come back for every point against ford...I would expect no less from GM enthusiasts, but I swear it is like clockwork...see somebody innocently make a jab about ford and here comes the Ford team to refute every comment and turn the thread into how great the GT and new Mustang are.

I'm glad you guys enjoy the conversations here, and Ford discussions do have their place here, in threads that pertain to such. I see far too many threads get turned into ford vs. chevy in here.

To me its like Jewish people saying the Passion was Anti-Semetic. They were overly sensitive to the issue. To someone not going in expected to see anti-semetism...it didn't exist. I'd just like to see one of you guys let a stupid anti-ford comment go once in a while instead of having to take up for the blue oval EVERY SINGLE STINKING TIME and take threads WAYYYYY off topic as a result.

Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.

Z284ever

07-13-2004, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6

Its not that the ford guys are trolls...not at all, at least not guys like RE5.0, Paper Target and Proud Pony...you guys contribute substantively to many discussions. I would just like to see discussions stay on course more instead of deteriorating to "yeah, but the Mustang....." and "yeah, but the Corvette", and then "yeah, but the GT"..... just gets old when every thread you open has the same garbage in it.

I'm not so sure I agree.

One of the things that makes this forum so interesting, is that we have enough knowledgeable posters to keep everyone honest....and stimulate an open debate.

It's really one long yawn, when you go to a site and find nothing but cheerleaders. I just can't stand that.

Didn't mean to sidetrack this thread......back to the"Oh Oh!" topic.:)

ProudPony

07-13-2004, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
I agree this is the best forum of its kind on the web, but you must take the context in to account..that it is on a site name CAMAROZ28.com.

Why should the name of the site require the responsible posters to "tolerate" a childish or unjustified comment - just because it favors the brand the site is named for? If we set rules like this, the 5th gen forum will lose credibility and tank in a month - I know I wouldn't come any more.

Again, I think this forum has grown into something that was unintented at the beginning. When the name Camaroz28.com was founded, I doubt that the guys knew they would possess one of the most CREDIBLE future vehicle sites on the web - for ALL BRANDS NO LESS. So how could they have named it anything appropriate at that time?

I see your point, but you have to see mine too - even if you don't agree in full. This forum is SPECIAL... it has grown BEYOND the name of the website on which it resides. In this forum, it's about bringing something substantial to the discussion, not jibberish and wet dreams. We do FACTS here. We occasionally do speculation based on facts. We post links or images. We cite data and figures. In short, we are credible. Like Z284ever said (well to BTW),"One of the things that makes this forum so interesting, is that we have enough knowledgeable posters to keep everyone honest....and stimulate an open debate.

I agree that there are Ford loyalists that come here and post in an annoying manner. But you know what, I tolerate them just like I tolerate the GM loyalists that wander in here and do the same thing - and yes, they are annoying too. I have to cipher through their dream material to find the facts that are posted by credible sources. If you want banter and unsubstantiated "feel-good" comments - go to the lounge. If you want beefy material and honest opinion with debate - it's RIGHT IN HERE.

BTW, I have seen more good debates in this forum than anywhere, whether it was cars v trucks, GM v Ford, FWD v RWD, N/A v blown, z/28 v SS, or even Bush v Kerry. That's another reason why I keep coming back.

All I can say is try to ignore the losers and trolls, and hopefully they will go away. As for the Ford v Chevy thing in every thread you say is eating your craw... maybe you can look at it as "sibling rivalry? :D
I never knew two brothers that didn't compete to be the best at EVERYTHING they did. Maybe it just goes to show how closely tied together the two are?

Know what I hate most in here... the guys who never bring ANYTHING to the party, but come in to scrutinize and belittle (with childish disposition) the good stuff others DO BRING. Guys (from all sides) who have extremely rose-colored glasses AND no respect for what the other companies are doing. Guys that you can NEVER agree with on ANYTHING - they won't let you, because they are trolls that have nothing better to do than argue for the sake of arguing. I ignore them - you will never see me post a reply to their nonsense, even though many of you other regulars DO make the effort to point these guys straight, futile as it may be (:bow: to you, you have more time and patience than I). We know who they are.

As long as the lines are well-written and not lounge-fodder or back-pocket BS, I don't mind a good zinger against a Ford... heck, I probably know more of them than you GM guys do! :thumb:
But if they get dished out, you better be able to take them back too - 'nuf said.

Dead thread alert! Next...

Chris 96 WS6

07-13-2004, 10:45 AM

Fair enough PP......

Carry on.

jg95z28

07-13-2004, 11:34 AM

Before becoming offended, the blue oval guys who contribute here regularly need to realise that they're already fighting a prejudice that many of their own brethren have caused. Go to most Ford/Mustang related websites or look in any Ford/Mustang related printed media and there is an immediate bashing of everything GM and more often than not bashing the fact that the 2003+ Mustang is faster than the 2003+ (enter any year after 2002 here) Camaro because the Camaro no longer exists.

When searching for technical help on my sons 96 GT, I had to search all over before finding a Ford site where people actually knew anything or one where I wouldn't immediately get bashed because I was a Chevy-guy.

Sure there are some very narrowminded people here as well. However for the most part, there are more RWD performance enthusiasts that appreciate vehicles no matter which flag they fly. That's why this place is so cool. :D

detltu

07-13-2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by SFireGT98
whos gonna be buying that sept. issue of PHR?

:p

I will for sure.

WERM

07-13-2004, 09:14 PM

jg95z28

07-13-2004, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by WERM
Just keep in mind that plenty of use "Blue Oval Guys" are just car enthusiasts that happen to drive Mustangs. Especially those of us that have been here a while. That was part of my point. I just don't think may GM fans have had a positive experience with Ford-guys like you. :D

ProudPony

07-14-2004, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by jg95z28
Before becoming offended, the blue oval guys who contribute here regularly need to realise that they're already fighting a prejudice that many of their own brethren have caused. Go to most Ford/Mustang related websites or look in any Ford/Mustang related printed media and there is an immediate bashing of everything GM and more often than not bashing the fact that the 2003+ Mustang is faster than the 2003+ (enter any year after 2002 here) Camaro because the Camaro no longer exists.

When searching for technical help on my sons 96 GT, I had to search all over before finding a Ford site where people actually knew anything or one where I wouldn't immediately get bashed because I was a Chevy-guy.

Sure there are some very narrowminded people here as well. However for the most part, there are more RWD performance enthusiasts that appreciate vehicles no matter which flag they fly. That's why this place is so cool. :D

Hey, no argument from me here! Like I said, I don't have the time to waste sifting through BS and slop, so I typically spend MORE time on this site than all the other Mustang/Ford sites combined! That's the honest truth.

Because of the Mustang's popularity, it garners owners that are "not quite mauture" (i.e. 16-18y/o) and have not experienced the ponycar/musclecar euphoria that seasoned veterans have. They'd rather discuss fart-cans and how to remove their body hair than nostalgic V8 combos, TransAm specs, and future homage to past legends. Which do you think I prefer?!?!:confused:

Your statement is fair, and YES, I know I am on a GM-based site, but again, I think of this forum as a website all it's own and in here I find more open-mindedness and good discussion than anywhere else on the web. So I come back! :D

As a parting salvo though, I really do have to say that I saw some VERY SERIOUS and THOUGHTFUL posts on the Mustang boards when the F-car production ended in 2002. I even linked a few threads into this forum for viewing. There are many Mustang guys that respect and acknowledge the F-cars, and GM in general - problem is they are buried in a quagmire of goobers and buttplugs on most Mustang sites and nobody wants to read through all the crap to get to the good ones.
But PLEASE, don't give-up on all Mustang/Ford guys because of the naiveity of a few. (I don't think you have, just making the point for others!) :thumb:

IZ28

07-14-2004, 08:30 AM

I'll say right now that I can have a conversation with/do jave conversations with M*stang guys on occassion in person without any real problems. Sure I'm a GM/Camaro crazy guy and we're gonna disagree, but it's never to the extent that there's an all-out arguement. I find that M*stang/F*rd guys are alot more open to Camaros/Chevys then the other way around. (for some reason ;))

I'll tell you who you really gotta watch out for: MOPAR guys. Alot of them are real touchy, you gotta be careful with what you say to them as they seem to think that they have the top everything when it comes to their cars. :rolleyes: Some Mopars are definetly cool though.

BigDarknFast

07-14-2004, 08:41 AM

Yup....from my observation, these threads turn south anytime one of two things happens:

1. Somebody makes a backhanded comment or joke about Ford and all the Ford Lurkers have to come out of the shadows to defend their brand, or

2. The ford guys come out of the woodword on their own just to try to rain a little on our parade.

I dont' have a problem with Ford guys or Fords in general, other than my personal taste lies with GM. I'd just like for this GM board to be able to get enthusiastic about GM products once in a while w/o it turning into a stupid Ford VS. Chevy thread. Maybe the Ford Apologists should spend more time in the Future Mustang forums at stangnet or the corral.

With you 100%. I have no issue with Ford loyalists (I agree with PP about this term being somehow better than 'apologists') coming here and debating and for that matter, it's not my site to be making rules. What bugs me is when peeps come in just to rain on GM's parade or to beat on GM out of jealousy. That's just not right.

Doug Harden

07-14-2004, 09:09 AM

:sound of a dead horse being beaten to a pulp: :death:

1fastdog

07-14-2004, 11:49 AM

Corvette vs. Mustang? In a drag racer framework this might be a valid comparison. The Corvette is not aimed a drag racers, though a 'vette can hold it's own in straighline performance. It's aimed at all around performance and it's strong point show themselves on a roadcourse. You pay for the package.

The 'vette isn't aimed at a customer that doesn't value exceptional handling as an important virtue.

Stealth 86 LSC

07-14-2004, 01:39 PM

damn, this got kinda deep...
I consider myself one of those car enthusiasts that happens to like fords (or lincolns :D) but respects everything. I love my car to death, but i get a chill seeing an all black ws6 with ram air hood, or a nice electron blue z06, or the beautiful 35th anniv. SS.
sometimes i wonder if the car community might be a little more open if there wasnt a manufacturers badge on any car. just the name of the vehicle, with no baggage beyond iits own line. maybe then it would be, say "Im a ford guy, and i dont like ANYTHING GM makes", but, "I dont particuallrly like that aveo, but damn, those camaros and firebirds are nice, sos that mustang..." Sure there would still be fanatics, but maybe it wouldnt be so bad
seems like what we need is some automobile equality for everyone

back to lurking...

PaperTarget

07-14-2004, 05:13 PM

I read a lot of nice posts there toward the end. For the most part I haven't been commenting on much since most of the comments were pretty civil. I like most of the people on here whether they have a GM/Dodge/Ford preference. There are a few bad apples, but you'll find them anywhere. I have started to ignore them (literally since I'm putting them on my ignore list, lol). I'd like to point out that I'll correct a Ford person just as quickly as a GM person if they're wrong. I like this forum much better than many of the others out there whether they be Ford or Dodge or GM. I think we all know the reason for that. Cheers guys and have a nice day.

guionM

07-14-2004, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by 1fastdog
Corvette vs. Mustang? In a drag racer framework this might be a valid comparison. The Corvette is not aimed a drag racers, though a 'vette can hold it's own in straighline performance. It's aimed at all around performance and it's strong point show themselves on a roadcourse. You pay for the package.

The 'vette isn't aimed at a customer that doesn't value exceptional handling as an important virtue.

Very well put.

But, Ford's Mustang Cobra isn't aimed at Drag racers either, and is also aimed for road courses.

The IRS on the car adsorbs alot of thrust. The made-for-drag-racing Mustang Mach 1 is only a couple of ticks behind the Cobra in acceleration, despite a cavernous disadvantage in power output.

1fastdog

07-15-2004, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by guionM
Very well put.

But, Ford's Mustang Cobra isn't aimed at Drag racers either, and is also aimed for road courses.

The IRS on the car adsorbs alot of thrust. The made-for-drag-racing Mustang Mach 1 is only a couple of ticks behind the Cobra in acceleration, despite a cavernous disadvantage in power output.

True enough Guy, and in that context that Ford went for more aggressive roadholding as you say, the Mustang comes up way short in a comparison against Z51 C5's. It's far worse a differential if it's a Z06 comparison.

The Corvette certainly isn't cheap when viewing the sticker as a standalone item. However, the Corvette and partucularly the Z06 are exceptional values and definate bang for the buck standouts.

guionM

07-15-2004, 10:08 AM

Not taking away anything from the Corvette. It's a car that can keep up with (and sometimes out manuver and out accelerate) exotics costing twice or thrice the price, yet pretty much anyone can afford one, new or used.

But the idea of a 4 passenger coupe with the abilities the Cobra has for the price the Cobra is pretty astounding.

The last Cobra couldn't beat a Z06 on the track, but it was close enough to force the Z06 driver not to make any slight mistakes whatsoever, and it was pretty much no contest with a standard Corvette.

SNEAKY NEIL

07-15-2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by guionM
Not taking away anything from the Corvette. It's a car that can keep up with (and sometimes out manuver and out accelerate) exotics costing twice or thrice the price, yet pretty much anyone can afford one, new or used.

But the idea of a 4 passenger coupe with the abilities the Cobra has for the price the Cobra is pretty astounding.

The last Cobra couldn't beat a Z06 on the track, but it was close enough to force the Z06 driver not to make any slight mistakes whatsoever, and it was pretty much no contest with a standard Corvette.

I don't know about that. I would say a ZO6 is about 6-7 mph faster than a Cobra..............easy. So, you could probably miss a gear and still be fine. Also, a base Vette is right there with the Cobra. That one is a drivers race. Don't forget, we are not talking about a 97' C5, the current ones are much faster.

muckz

07-15-2004, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by IZ28
Sure I'm a GM/Camaro crazy guy

More like 3rd Gen Guy :D

Originally posted by IZ28
I'll tell you who you really gotta watch out for: MOPAR guys. Alot of them are real touchy, you gotta be careful with what you say to them as they seem to think that they have the top everything when it comes to their cars. :rolleyes: Some Mopars are definetly cool though.

A good way to settle the differences between enemies - find a new, common enemy and attack them. :cool:

muckz

07-15-2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Z284ever

The Cobra R (or whatever it's called), will get a version of this motor....with all the requisite accoutrements to support this power. In interviews...Ford has already pegged this car at $60,000.

Will this car beat the Z06? Probably not.

Didn't the 2000 (or was it 2001) Cobra R hold its ground with "only" 385 HP with both the Corvette and the Viper? It cornered VERY WELL, @ 1.01 G's. Its top speed was around 175 mph. And it trapped 110 mph in the 1/4.

If the new Cobra R will be offered in a similar package (but with 500+ HP), I say that Z06 will get its heels stepped on. I will not even be surprised if this new R beats Z06 on some tests.

uluz28

07-15-2004, 12:31 PM

The Cobra R you are talking about also came without a warranty, a radio, and air conditioning. The 385HP Z06 still performed better, if I recall.

SNEAKY NEIL

07-15-2004, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by muckz
Didn't the 2000 (or was it 2001) Cobra R hold its ground with "only" 385 HP with both the Corvette and the Viper? It cornered VERY WELL, @ 1.01 G's. Its top speed was around 175 mph. And it trapped 110 mph in the 1/4.

If the new Cobra R will be offered in a similar package (but with 500+ HP), I say that Z06 will get its heels stepped on. I will not even be surprised if this new R beats Z06 on some tests.

Yes the ZO6 did perform better and it was cheaper too! I remember that the ZO6 beat the R in every test they had and the magazine editors were wondering why someone would buy that car for all the above reasons.................and it had a stripped interior to boot.

Forget about it even being near a Viper!

Evilfrog

07-15-2004, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Yes the ZO6 did perform better and it was cheaper too! I remember that the ZO6 beat the R in every test they had and the magazine editors were wondering why someone would buy that car for all the above reasons.................and it had a stripped interior to boot.

Forget about it even being near a Viper!

Cabra R....was a stripped car. And really shouldn't get campared to the Z06...

But the z06 did beat it across the board.(if i remember right)

PaperTarget

07-15-2004, 02:21 PM

Depends on which test you read. The 2000 Cobra R actually beat the Viper and 385 HP Vette in one magazine track test. They used professional drivers to boot. Now, I will say this, the drivers all chose the Vette for everyday drivability over the Mustang. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for in a car.

Big Als Z

07-15-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Depends on which test you read. The 2000 Cobra R actually beat the Viper and 385 HP Vette in one magazine track test. They used professional drivers to boot. Now, I will say this, the drivers all chose the Vette for everyday drivability over the Mustang. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for in a car.

I have said article, and no, the Cobra R didnt beat the Viper nor Z06.
2001 Car and Driver Annual Road Test Ultimate comparisons, they have the listed the following
1/4
Z06- 13.0@112
Viper GTS ACR- 12.6@114
Cobra R- 13.0@111

Braking (70-0)
Z06-152ft
Viper GTS ACR- 186ft (without ABS)
Cobra R- 169ft

road course/mph
Z06- 1:36.3/95.4
Viper GTS ACR- 1:34.9/96.7
Cobra R- 1:38.7/92.1

they say they were driven by profesional drivers.

detltu

07-15-2004, 05:33 PM

Anyway I just got PHR and the article is great. A must read.

IZ28

07-16-2004, 01:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by muckz
More like 3rd Gen Guy :D

A Third Gen guy mostly yes, but that's not all. ;)

A good way to settle the differences between enemies - find a new, common enemy and attack them. :cool:

Not really, I speak from experience. ;)

PacerX

07-16-2004, 05:47 PM

I been trapped in the outlands of Canada for a week, forgive my tardiness...

"Ford is now feilding the GT as their halo which, as I recall, not only a$$packed the Z06 embarassingly, but also the Ferrari, Lambo, and even the vaunted Porsche - most of the latter costing 2-3 times what (the pricey) GT costs. And it did it with the blown 5.4 we were talking about earlier, not some 600hp future wet dream. So let's doll out the a$$packings with some discretion, OK? "

Lessee here... by my math...

$137,000 (for argument's sake... seems the dealers may have other ideas...) minus $70,000 equals $67,000.

So, Chevrolet gives us a 300-400 lbs. lighter Corvette Z06 with 500hp whist Ford gives us a ~600hp GT FOR TWICE THE PRICE.

Now, let's do some more math...

3400lbs./600hp = 5.6667 lbs./hp
3000lbs./500hp = 6 lbs./hp

Hmmm... that's not a whole lotta pounds per horsepower for $67,000 more...

And, while the the spirit has me, I would be remiss to point out that the Z06 will have 400 or so less pounds to stop in braking or fight with going around corners.

Now, the real question is this:

If Hill is sandbagging about the horsepower number, which I had a VLE at GM tell me was 500hp TWICE, then the GT is in SERIOUS DANGER of being embarrassed. One would think that a VLE isn't going to tell little old me a number that could come back to haunt Mr. Hill, would one?

So, for a little more math...

3000 lbs./5.6667hp per lbs. = 529hp at the flywheel.

30 horsepower. 30.

All it takes is 30hp for GM to ram one deep into Ford's rear flank.

"The issue isn't what the Mustang has to be worried about. Mustangs make money and they have the huge economy of scale of Ford behind them.

So what's our point? "

OVER 2,000,000 trucks and cars will share the major bits of that powertrain (engine and transmission architecture). NOBODY on the planet can do that except for GM.

"So what you're saying is that if Ford was to build a 5.4 for it's truck line, then it could share some of the parts with a blown 5.4 identical to the one used in the GT? OK, great, I'll get right on it! Oh wait, they already do, don't they? In fact, they have been offering blown 5.4's for some time now in L's and Harley-Davidson models. Oh well, HARDLY EVER see one of those on the road eh, much less an F150 or Expedition with an N/A Triton 5.4 - you know, the BEST-SELLING TRUCK IN THE WORLD at nearly 1-million/year with a few hundred thousand more SuperDutys, Vans, Navigators and Expeditions thrown in for good measure."

The number is in EXCESS of 2,000,000.

Nearly all of the GMT-900 volume (1,800,000) PLUS the Zetas, PLUS a substantia chunk of the GMT-360 + GMT-370 platforms, PLUS CTSv, PLUS the Holdens, PLUS some measure of the W platforms (if the 5.3 liter makes it's way in, as hoped), PLUS the SSR, PLUS... errr.... nah, that oughta just about do it.

Seems to me that multiplication factor is roughly 2, if I'm being generous to Ford.

Valve locks... rocker bolts... valve covers... coil packs... coil pack brackets... coils... coil pack studs... timing chains... timing gears... head bolts... throttle body actuators... accelerator pedal position sensors... valve cover gaskets... oil pumps... spark plugs... valley covers... valley cover seals... valley cover bolts... intake manifold bolts... throttle position sensors... oil filters... main bearings... rod bearings... piston pins... water pumps... water pump seals... water pump bolts... water temp sensors... knock sensors... crank triggers... crank bolts... oil pan gaskets... oil pan bolts... powertrain control modules...

I wonder how much it costs to tool up a water pump... I'd guess the tooling exceeds $1,000,000. So, if I amoritize over a year only, Corvette (or Camaro) only pay $.50 to tool it, while Mustang pays $1.00.

That's just tooling for the water pump... I didn't figure in capital...

That's on a SINGLE part. My list up there is nowhere near comprehensive...

Chris 96 WS6

07-16-2004, 11:28 PM

PacerX, good post! :bow:

Big Als Z

07-16-2004, 11:31 PM

Pacer, awesome post man, but your also forgot, unless I missed it, that the OHC engine of the 4.6/5.4 is much more expensive over all to build compared to the OHV engines of the 5.3/6.0.

1fastdog

07-17-2004, 06:31 AM

Righto Pacerx!

For the sake of a hypothetical, what's the equation look like if the weight were 2900 and the power 515HP?;)

The LS2 is strong and "undercammed" @ .525 lift for idle considerations. No airpump required to meet feds, which is a power and weight plus.

Point is, there's room for a power between LS2 and LS7 if you cam the LS2 @.550 and use it for a car enthusiasts that will tolerate a bit more agressive idle.

Z28Wilson

07-17-2004, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by 1fastdog
For the sake of a hypothetical, what's the equation look like if the weight were 2900 and the power 515HP?;)

:think:

ProudPony

07-19-2004, 07:55 AM

I been trapped in the outlands of Canada for a week, forgive my tardiness...
Congrats on the retreat. I see it did your creative juices some good!

Dude, you are awesome, no doubt about it!
I have just a couple points to make with you...

What WAS the last MSRP of a Z06? link (http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/#z06)
What WAS the last price of an SVT Cobra?link (http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/glance/index.asp#Mustang_SVT_Cobra)
What WAS the last price of a Mustang GT?link (http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/glance/index.asp#Mustang_GT_Coupe)

NOW, if you are going to pit a Z06 in the mid-$50's against a base GT in the mid $20s, or even a Cobra in the Mid $30s - (maybe not TWICE the price, but $35k ain't exaclty close to $53k in my book), then I feel perfectly justified in comparing the Z06 to the GT. And like I said clearly in my post - these are both HALO CARS for each company, so what is essentially on the table is "best-to-offer v best-to-offer" from the OEMs, not tuners, not mod-shops, but OEMs. As I said, dole out the @$$packing with some discretion.

Another thing... I'm comparing cars that are actually being produced... yup, on the street, with stone chips and bugs on the windshield. You are still grabbing at promises and spec sheets that are yet to make production. If we're gonna race ideas... well, we're all gonna win, aren't we?

Truth hurts. I should know, GM has held top spot for a looong time (in Ford v GM battle, otherwise Dodge has had it), and I was always the one to admit it. Ford had nothing to run with LS1 cars or the Vette from the showroom. But you know what - things change. I have no doubt GM will be on top again sometime soon. The tides must flow, but they can't flow one way forever. If you don't grasp that, then I can't help you by typing anything more in this post.

As for the accounting lesson... man, how long did you sit and type all that stuff anyways?!?! Even making it all up, that had to take time!

Here's the deal... I NEVER said Ford made more vehicles than GM. That's NOT what the debate here is about. You can claim 5-million trucks if you want to, but that doesn't necessarily mean your cost for a water pump is 1/5th the cost of Ford's water pump. Linear extrapolation is not a dead-nuts science. :rolleyes:

My point was (and still IS) that "economy of scale" is just that - SCALE. It is dependent on many things, most of which are non-linear in nature and subscribe to laws of diminishing returns or excessive demand. Simply put, 2:1 production does NOT mean one unit costs 1/2 of the other. I'm not an econ professor, but I DO make a living doing machine design and justifications of those designs based on anticipated production, volumes, and amortization/depreciation of the asset over it's production life.

Here's a quick test... You get a paper cup for .01 - your company makes them by the zillions. Your paper cup gets you 10 trips to the water fountain before the seams start to get weak, leak a tad, and you need another cup. My cup is a plastic cup that costs me .02 . I get 20 trips to the water cooler before my cup starts to fail. Tooling costs were identical for the two cups (yeah, I know it's a stretch but just go with me here), and production rates are the same. Which cup is the BETTER value? (One of them is clearly better than the other!)

And as a parting salvo...
Though GM may make 2-million trucks, they still won't enjoy a 2:1 favor in cost or even production.
Through June 2004...
F-series - 432,969
Expedition - 77,484
Excursion - 10,281
Econoline - 92,118
Navigator - 16,268
-------------------
Total full-size units = 629,120 so far on 2004.
(All of these are capable of having 5.4 or 4.6 modular engines)

That does not include the cars and mid-sized units capable of carrying the 4.6 modular, or any off-shore production. We all know Australia is using Ford's same 4.6/5.4 platform down there, as is Europe.

So NO Ford will not sell more units than GM. I think Guy did a nice job of showing how Ford (and DCM and several others in fact) are not looking so much at market share by volume as they are looking to capitalize on PROFITABILITY (by fewer units no less). But then again, I'm sitting here trying to explain to you why a 2:1 unit gain doesn't directly equate to a 1/2-cost part... :confused:

NEVERMIND. Enjoy the bliss! :D