Don't expect Horsepower to go much farther than today (plus new Lightning info)

Ford to lighten, tighten upcoming version of Lightning pickup By RICHARD TRUETT | Automotive News

DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. has no intention of letting the new 500-hp Dodge SRT-10 keep the title of world's fastest truck.

But John Coletti, director of Ford's Special Vehicle Team, acknowledges that automakers have hit a wall on how much horsepower they can give a vehicle. So the automaker will make the next-generation Ford F-150 Lightning pickup go faster by removing weight and improving handling.

"In the next generation, we've got to worry about efficiency, weight and better control," he says. "You can get great power-to-weight ratio without a fountain of horsepower."

Until the Ram SRT-10 pickup debuted this year, the Lightning had been the unchallenged leader in performance trucks for more than a decade.

But in February, the SRT-10 clocked a record speed of 154.587 mph.

Ford SVT engineers have experience in reducing weight with the 2002 Mustang Cobra R, a version for performance enthusiasts.

Strong, lightweight materials such as carbon fiber, magnesium, aluminum, ceramics and plastics can substitute for steel parts without major re-engineering.

Coletti says lighter parts and better-handling suspension systems might not come simultaneously.

"You'll start seeing it in incremental steps," he says. "Now that we have the engines where we want them, the question is what do you do with the rest of the car? Clearly you have to start looking at the weight aspect of it. If I could take 300 or 400 pounds out of the car, I wouldn't have to add any more horsepower. It would just be an incredibly faster, better handling, better braking car. All the attributes would improve."

Coletti believes automakers risk attracting attention from government regulators and the insurance industry by constantly increasing horsepower in their performance-oriented vehicles.

In the last two years, the number of vehicles with engines producing 400 hp to 500 hp and more has grown quickly.

"The focus now has to be better efficiency and weight reduction," Coletti says.

In the heyday of the American muscle car in the late 1960s, only a small number of limited-production vehicles made more than 400 hp.

The ratings of most Pontiac GTOs, Ford Mustangs, Dodge Chargers and Chevrolet Corvettes were in the 300-hp to 375-hp range.

Today, there are at least 14 cars and trucks with at least 400 hp.

Says Coletti: "We're hitting the limit."

Originally posted by guionM
Ford SVT engineers have experience in reducing weight with the 2002 Mustang Cobra R,
Boy would I like to get my hands on one of those 2002 Cobra Rs. ;)

Yea, you just know its not going to go on for too long. Glad I'm smack dab in the middle of it though :D

Is this a cross-the-board thing or just Ford? It seems that they are saying that the current powerplants that they(Ford) have can not make much more reliable HP and still comply to all regulations.

good stuff! :thumbsup:

I believe it when I see it. With the Camaro coming back and talk of RWD sedans coming from GM, I don't see Ford staying where they are for long. These are performance cars, not high quantity cars. If you come in last in hp, you don't sell cars. People won't buy a Cobra when you could possibly have a Camaro for the same price and have more power.

Edit: Also, I don't every see SVT, John Coletti, steping down to Chrysler and their SRT program. Apparently the two leaders of those camps are good friends and have personal grudges. So, if a Charger is faster then a Cobra or a Lighning is faster then the SRT-10 Ram, I don't see it being that way for long.

I doubt it was the intent, but the quote makes Ford sound pretty awkward.

Maybe they have hit a wall with THEIR engines.

Coletti just "discovered" power to weight? That's just too funny.:lol:

This is a gem!:

"You'll start seeing it in incremental steps," he says. "Now that we have the engines where we want them, the question is what do you do with the rest of the car? Clearly you have to start looking at the weight aspect of it. If I could take 300 or 400 pounds out of the car, I wouldn't have to add any more horsepower. It would just be an incredibly faster, better handling, better braking car. All the attributes would improve."

Gotta admit, he's got a grasp of the obvious. Yeah, do it incrementally...:eek: Wonder which will be first.. the attempt to make the SVT stuff handle or make it less portly?

Maybe before the new truck and Mustang platforms were done might have been a more appropriate time to make this "discovery".

Originally posted by 1fastdog
Coletti just "discovered" power to weight? That's just too funny.:lol:

yeah..:rolleyes: must be a die hard racer then huh?
"wait...you can make a car faster by taking weight off the car? Why didnt we think of this before?"

Originally posted by Big Als Z
yeah..:rolleyes: must be a die hard racer then huh?
"wait...you can make a car faster by taking weight off the car? Why didnt we think of this before?"

Glad I'm not the only one that finds this funny in a big, big way.

Originally posted by 1fastdog
Glad I'm not the only one that finds this funny in a big, big way.

Its very funny considering everyone here drools over SVT and thinks its the shiz. Either hes covering for SVT's lack of power making, which that statement would make him sound like a fool that doesnt know jack, or he really didnt know about the power to weight deal. Either way, SVT must die.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Either way, SVT must die.

Why? Will that bring you better performing GM cars?

Thats what i said a while back. the HP wars are coming to an end, but they will start to improve the handling and the "fun factor" (feel faster than it really is) :)

Well, regardless of what some people here want to read into Coletti's statements, SVT's (Ford) engines haven't hit any limitations. Even the 03/04 Cobras handle 600 HP without problems with the factory internals. The GT is going to make an advertised 550 HP. The Lightnings can handle well over 450 HP. Now, as someone mentioned, can they meet emissions? I think so. Even these 600 HP Cobras are meeting emissions tests here in Houston and other cities where they use probes to test your exhaust gases.

What I really think Coletti is saying is this: Before the government shuts us down, let's change our game plan. It's easy to make HP and today it's easy to do it reliably, but it's much harder to lose the weight. That's why many manufacturers (GM included) just add HP. Some of you laugh and call him a fool, but I don't see you in his position and making the products he does. Quite frankly you're just an ignorant ass. Now, that being said, have a nice day!

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Quite frankly you're just an ignorant ass. Now, that being said, have a nice day!

Really... this stuff is unneeded, especially in this forum.

Want to argue things? Fine. But don't start name calling. :no: This place it too valubale to turn into something like that. Heck, you can say he is "ignorant" if you feel that is the case, but you really don't need to make a peronal attack with the "ass" tacked on.


FWIW, my take on Colletti's statement is that perhaps they are taking a view of "When is enough, enough?" Sure, they coudl MAKE more horsepower, but at what point to the manufacturers draw the line on what should actually be on public roads?

Not saying I agree with that stance, but that is kind of the way I read it.

"Coletti believes automakers risk attracting attention from government regulators and the insurance industry by constantly increasing horsepower in their performance-oriented vehicles. "

I could not agree with Coletti more here.

its not a technological barrier, its a practical barrier. When you can go buy a 400hp car for $35K it begs the question, are enough fools going to kill themselves in these cars that legislators somewhere will introduce bills to limit hp? At some point it will happen, I'd rather the automakers call a truce at the currently incredible levels than risk crusing the second golden age of horsepower.

I am aware you can kill yourself in any car, but 600hp vipers wrapping around telephone poles gets more buzz/press/awareness than a 150 hp Grand Am getting wrapped around a telephone pole.

There is more than one way to interpret Coletti's statement. However, the implications that some make that he essentially doesn't have a clue is ignorance in action.

From www.dictionary.com: Ignorance; The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

Personally, I think the HP "wars" will start to be curtailed. Any number of issues, likely in combination, will start to have a big effect on that. These include, but are certainly not limited to, technology, fuel prices, insurance concerns, emissions, safety nazis, etc. Cars seem to get heavier as they get more power (GTO, 03 Cobra, etc), with a few noticeable exceptions (such as the Vette). It only makes sense that more R&D will be put into making things lighter vice adding HP. The benefits are many, including better mileage, better performance, better handling. There are also detractors, of course.

AHAHA I LOVE IT!!

Ok, ok, ok... So when SVT makes below-par performance cars, Coletti saying "enough is enough" so the Feds wont shut them down is "smart" and "wise" yet when GM brings out a car or truck short of par on the HP numbers, they are stupid, dumb, and lack the engineering of SVT to make hi-po cars...

Can we please change the colors tho this site to blue and the name to Stangnet?
Sorry, but he made himself look like a fool. You dont pride your company on performance and not understand the concept of Power to Weight ratio. Dont get upset because your God slipped up and sounded like a dumbass either wich way you look at it.

Chris 96 WS6....totally and completely agree. Common sense does prevail, on occasion.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
AHAHA I LOVE IT!!

Ok, ok, ok... So when SVT makes below-par performance cars, Coletti saying "enough is enough" so the Feds wont shut them down is "smart" and "wise" yet when GM brings out a car or truck short of par on the HP numbers, they are stupid, dumb, and lack the engineering of SVT to make hi-po cars...
I'm sorry, I didn't see where I or anybody else said anything of the sort. Could you please provide links/quotes to back up your assertions? Thanks.

Can we please change the colors tho this site to blue and the name to Stangnet?
I don't think Jason or Frez would be too keen on that idea, but I digress.

Sorry, but he made himself look like a fool.
As has been stated many times, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Be advised that I give your opinion all its due consideration.

You dont pride your company on performance and not understand the concept of Power to Weight ratio.
Please see "ignorance" definition above. Your silly idea that Coletti or any other true enthusiasts doesn't understand "Power to Weight ratio" is ludicrious enough to be quite funny. Thanks for the laugh.

Dont get upset because your God slipped up and sounded like a dumbass either wich way you look at it.
Wow - so we have more assumptions here. Coletti means very little to me. Sorry to burst your bubble. And as far as sounding like a "dumbass", one only needs to consider the source (you) in order to put that in proper context. In fact, if you thought him to be the worlds smartest man, I'd be worried.

There is no need for the personal attacts, as you seem to enjoy resorting to them. He must mean something to you if you are bringing me into this.

He said it, not I. Why else would he say that? If he does know about P/W ratio, then why would he say something like that to make him sound stupid? Ill leave you to answer that.

Originally posted by mastrdrver
I believe it when I see it. With the Camaro coming back and talk of RWD sedans coming from GM, I don't see Ford staying where they are for long. These are performance cars, not high quantity cars. If you come in last in hp, you don't sell cars. People won't buy a Cobra when you could possibly have a Camaro for the same price and have more power.
If only ... :( Tell that to the 4th gen F-cars, which pretty much dominated the bang for the buck league, and offered more horsepower/performance for less money than the Mustang for basically its entire existence. Even the car magazines used to wonder aloud (or in print, rather) why people kept buying the Mustang. But the Mustang survived, and the F-car is gone (for now, at least) thanks to lackluster sales...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Really... this stuff is unneeded, especially in this forum.

Want to argue things? Fine. But don't start name calling. :no: This place it too valubale to turn into something like that. Heck, you can say he is "ignorant" if you feel that is the case, but you really don't need to make a peronal attack with the "ass" tacked on.


So it's ok for GM people like Al to start calling names??? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Big Als Z
There is no need for the personal attacts, as you seem to enjoy resorting to them. He must mean something to you if you are bringing me into this.

He said it, not I. Why else would he say that? If he does know about P/W ratio, then why would he say something like that to make him sound stupid? Ill leave you to answer that.

You attack anyone not foaming at the mouth with GM rhetoric and your arguement is usually child like. I hate coming down to your level, but I think it's the only thing you understand.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ok, ok, ok... So when SVT makes below-par performance cars, Coletti saying "enough is enough" so the Feds wont shut them down is "smart" and "wise" yet when GM brings out a car or truck short of par on the HP numbers, they are stupid, dumb, and lack the engineering of SVT to make hi-po cars...
They aren't making below par performance cars though. Isn't the next generation Lightning supposed to have 550-500HP anyway? And wouldn't that be in addition to weight reduction?

Any slight mention of Ford brings out all of the Blue Oval die-hards.

Like I said earlier, it looks like Ford has or will have difficulties in the future keeping up in a high HP war. That's what it seems like ole' Colletti is really saying, so he uses the HP/weight ratio to side step the horse power issue. If this isn't the case, then fine but I really don't think he would be doing this "for the good of the industry" and to keep insurace and government regulations away. Wasn't he the same guy who was running his mouth about how much power they are getting from thier cars?

My guess is that they are having difficulty with reliability and/or regulation issues.

By the way, you can't get upset for someone speaking out against Ford on a site like this, you have to just deal with it.

I agree with Darth, I think this is a first ;)

I hope SVT pushes the limits on the handling of the new Mustang so when we get our Camaro it will have to be at least as good or better. I have high hopes for Zeta's handling.

Although Im not so sure a HP war would stop between the Viper/GT/Vette if a blue devil shows up to the party.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
So it's ok for GM people like Al to start calling names??? :rolleyes:

No, it's not OK, but I don't see anywhere in this thread where Al personally attacked someone in the thread or on this board or called them a name directly. You did. That's the difference.

I might not agree with everything he's saying (ie. "SVT must die"), but I'm not going to attack personally.

This horsepower war is not going to last. Thats the fact, if anyone thinks it will go on and on and higher and higher your sadly mistaken. Sooner or later the feds and insurance companies will start making louder threats. Thats the truth of the matter. This is a great time for HP but it wont last so if Manufacturers can start to "hide" there HP with lighter weight and better handling characteristics the better it is!

I find it funny that such a very small segment of the automobile world is treated like this. He said that there are at least 14 cars and trucks that make at least 400hp that are available today...

ASTON MARTIN DB7 VANTAGE
ASTON MARTIN DB7 VANTAGE VOLANTE
ASTON MARTIN VANQUISH
AUDI RS6
BENTLEY ARNAGE
BENTLEY AZURE
BENTLEY CONTINENTAL
CADILLAC CTS-V
CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06
DODGE RAM SRT-10
DODGE VIPER SRT-10
FERRARI 360 MODENA
FERRARI 360 SPIDER
FERRARI 456M
FERRARI 575M MARANELLO
FERRARI 612 SCAGLIETTI
FERRARI ENZO
FORD GT
LAMBORGHINI GALLARDO
LAMBORGHINI MURCIÉLAGO
MASERATI SPYDER
MAYBACH 57
MAYBACH 62
MERCEDES-BENZ CL55 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ CL600
MERCEDES-BENZ CL65 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ E55 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ S55 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ S600
MERCEDES-BENZ S65 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ SL55 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ SL600
MERCEDES-BENZ SL65 AMG
MERCEDES-BENZ SLR MCLAREN
PORSCHE 911 TURBO
PORSCHE 911 GT2
PORSCHE CAYENNE TURBO
VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON W-12
VOLKSWAGEN TOUAREG W-12


And probably several more that Car and Driver didn't have on their website yet.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
No, it's not OK, but I don't see anywhere in this thread where Al personally attacked someone in the thread or on this board or called them a name directly. You did. That's the difference.

I might not agree with everything he's saying (ie. "SVT must die"), but I'm not going to attack personally.

While I'm sure it would be a joy to search the web archives, I'll leave that to you. He does do it, whether he chooses not to use the word ass or not. I didn't see you jumping to my aide when I was called an ass hat earlier this year for making a valid point and wanting the other side to prove theirs (they never did). You can stand by him if you like, but most people here see what he is. Regardless, that's the last I have to say about it.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
While I'm sure it would be a joy to search the web archives, I'll leave that to you. He does do it, whether he chooses not to use the word ass or not. I didn't see you jumping to my aide when I was called an ass hat earlier this year for making a valid point and wanting the other side to prove theirs (they never did). You can stand by him if you like, but most people here see what he is. Regardless, that's the last I have to say about it.

I don't recall someone calling you an "ass hat", if I had, I'd have said something about that too.

Regardless, you responding to him (or anyone) like that makes you look as bad or worse.

This isn't the place for personal attacks.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
He said it, not I. Why else would he say that? If he does know about P/W ratio, then why would he say something like that to make him sound stupid? Ill leave you to answer that.

Nothing personal, but do you not see the ludicrousy in your post? You're feelings towards SVT/Ford's so twisted, that you'll go as far as to misinterpret and twist around their words to your liking;). So he brings up the hp to weight ratio, and you assume he (director of SVT who's experience and knowledge with cars and vehicle dynamics “probably” goes beyond that of almost all here) doesn't know of this simple concept. He points out how the hp race has escalated greatly and how the ratings will probably plateau (probably due to increased regulations), and you assume he meant that Ford powertrain has reached their limit and aren't capable of competing.

Colleti isn't a god, or some genius but he 1) seems to know his s*it when it comes to cars (he must be or else he wouldn't be heading SVT) and 2) He is not afraid of competition, and seems to be quite a competitive man himself (personal grudge matches with PVO director, etc... are a classic examples).

The way i see it, i agree with him on both accounts. Most cars (especially the cheaper ones) improve performance by simply bumping up hp to balance off the increase in weight. Camaro's, Mustangs, etc.... have only gotten heavier throughout the last 2 decades. While hp has gone up, so has weight. So it seems this simple concept has eluded both Ford and GM since both the camaro and mustang haven't gotten any lighter. As far as hp increase, the pace will slow down. It'll have to. Next year, Ford alone will have two vehicles with 500+hp, probably three vehicles if the Cobra or Cobra-R gets the GT's blown 5.4 as well. Same with Dodge. We're already knocking on 600hp. Obviously, the pace will slow down, because we are near the limit as far as streetability, ideal fuel economy, etc.... Either the industry will slow down the pace, or regulations will.

Back to the topic at hand:

My interpretation of what he is saying is that they're going to focus more on weight. Up to this point to go faster everyone has just kept adding HP (and weight). As fast as the 4th gens were, they were still unforgivably fat, they shouldn't have gone over 3200lbs.

I am actually surprised at how high the HP #s have gone, before long either the industry or outside sources will impose discipline. I'd rather that GM, DCX and Ford do that, giving them the ability to leave the door open for us to take the cars farther. If discipline is imposed by regulation it would probably MUCH harder for enthusiasts(sp?) to make more Hp.

Anyway, here's hoping HP stays where its at (not regulated down) and our cars go on the Atkins plan :)!!

ill betcha automakers are already getting heat from gov't agencies/ private groups.....and are worried about lawsuits

this is a huge busniess- if a company knows there is a market to support theier cars to- they will produce them

- I sure they could care less if they are 'indangering' people on public roads- its all about the $$


damn lawyers!/crazy moms against ______ physco groups!:mad:

I think another thing to consider is the price of these cars. You're not going to get many people south of the age of 40 buying any of the above 400+ hp cars, and then the people who do have the money to buy them can generally be considered responsible or they probably wouldnt have that much extra money to toss around. Granted there are exceptions to the rule (well off parents, etc) but thats why I dont think there has been much of a public out cry thus far. If this starts showing up in sub $30,000 cars then we'll start to have problems.

Here the funny thing about this thread. Colleti, who just figured out hp/weight and is afraid of a hp war, made the following:

The '03 Cobra which outruns the lightweight C5 hardtop.
The Lightning which will smoke any GM truck.
The Boss Mustang to go up against Jon Moss's BBC 572 Camaro and destroyed it in head to head at the track.

Ford is in the middle of giving GM a major whupping in the performance war and they're going to give up? And Colleti's dishing out this education using a motor designed for FWD.

Now what's poor ol Colleti gonna do when he gets the new 6.2 OHC motor to work with?

I think thats a pretty good idea to start worrying about weight now instead of hp for awhile. 500-600hp is plenty, but it also stinks when that power is towing around a mid-3000lb vehicle. Thats another reason I admire the Corvette team. They shaved pounds off of the C5 coupe for the Z06 model and experimented with a production carbon fiber hood on the '04 Commemorative Edition Z06. Then they go along and make the C6 lighter. Now I'm sure we'll see an even lighter C6 Z06 and possibly a leader in the power/weight ratio class with the rumored "Blue Devil" Corvette. A close to 600hp car with all carbon fiber body panels, oh yeah :thumb:

So while I applaud SVT and Colleti for wanting to do this, it seems as if the Corvette team has already been embarking down this path for a few years now. Not slamming SVT here, just stating a point that they're not the first of the big 3 to look into weight savings on their performance cars. ;)

Originally posted by hp_nut
[B]

The '03 Cobra which outruns the lightweight C5 hardtop.
B]

Nope, it sure doesn't. Close but not close enough.

Originally posted by Chuck!
I think another thing to consider is the price of these cars. You're not going to get many people south of the age of 40 buying any of the above 400+ hp cars, and then the people who do have the money to buy them can generally be considered responsible or they probably wouldnt have that much extra money to toss around. Granted there are exceptions to the rule (well off parents, etc) but thats why I dont think there has been much of a public out cry thus far. If this starts showing up in sub $30,000 cars then we'll start to have problems.

Well thought out and essentially correct. The big bad wolf for the folks that are anti "buy what you want" are the SUV's and light duty trucks. High performance cars are off their radar other than them being lumped in that we all shoud be driving something solar powered or, better still, riding in solar powered public transportation...:(

The serious legislation, at present, is aimed at street racing or displays of speed on highways. Many states have made it clear they will stamp it out, unfortunately they have gone with vague definitions of what constitutes "racing".

Many insurance companies have opted to go a different route than trying to price insuring hi-perf vehicle out of reach. < Perhaps because the actuarial info makes it difficult as aftermarket hopped up imports are an issue rather than showroom stormers >

Some companies are inserting language into policies that not only exclude track incidents as being racing, but many exclude coverage if an incident happens as a result of "competition" on a public highway. IOW, some are essentially "turning off" the insurance for a car or truck that's driving fast with another car driving fast in the immediate vicinity. This has happened without much noise at all...probably because folks don't read their policy until it's a bit late...

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Nope, it sure doesn't. Close but not close enough.


Yup it sure does.:eek:

12.9-second quarter-mile at 111 mph from C&D. None of the Big3 car rags ever ran a vette that fast. Not to mention many owners running 12.5-12.7 @ ~113 bone stock. No vette owner is stupid enough to even claim running that fast stock.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=1881&page_number=2

This is at least the third time I've posted this same stuff. I know I'll have to do it again in a few months.

It's nice that you can quote the fastest time posted by a mag for the Cobra. I remember a comparison between a Cobra and a base Vette and guess who was faster? Yes, the Corvette, not by much but it was faster. I have been to the track many times and have yet to see a STOCK 03'+ Cobra break out of the 13's or get higher than 110 mph. This can go back and forth, but just because you claim Cobra's run mid 12's does not make it so.

By the way, I have seen stock Vettes go that fast. Remember, a 97' C5 is not even close to an 04' C5 at the track.

So a Cobra runs faster in one mag than another. Which one do you take? Why of course the slower. It couldn't have anything to do with the driver or track conditions. Isn't obvious the best run minimizes driver error or bad conditions and best shows what the car is capable of?

That's why I challenge you or anyone to find a vette run faster than 12.9@111 in any big car rag at any time.

So YOU havn't seen a stock Cobra break into the 12s or over 110, but you've seen STOCK vettes do it.... RIGHT.

Well I know a fella down here in Htown who bought an '03 this spring and took it down to the track and ran a 12.3@116 bone stock down to the paper filter.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Yup it sure does.:eek:

12.9-second quarter-mile at 111 mph from C&D. None of the Big3 car rags ever ran a vette that fast. Not to mention many owners running 12.5-12.7 @ ~113 bone stock. No vette owner is stupid enough to even claim running that fast stock.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=1881&page_number=2

This is at least the third time I've posted this same stuff. I know I'll have to do it again in a few months.

Don't want a pissing contest, but no it doesn't. You stated that the Cobra outperformed the lightweight C5 HARDTOP. From 2001 on that would be a Z06.

I'm not trying to state that a present gen Cobra isn't a good performing and easy/cheap to mod drag car. Let's avoid stating the obvious, and avoid making Coletti's mistake.

Speaking from a off the showroom floor context, the Cobra's come up short on the strip, and very short on a roadcourse.

As an attempt to stay on topic...My earlier take on Coletti's quote made it clear that he probably would have approached his statement differently had he givin it more thought. Coletti is brash, but not stupid.

Someone previously alluded that Coletti knows more about vehicles than anyone on this site... thing is you never know what folks on this site know or do for a living unless they tell you.

Johm Coletti threw down the gauntlet not that long ago. Made quite a big deal out of it as I recall... His intent was to hand a big can of whoopass to GM and DCX in particular. Particularly in truck offerings. The thing is, at the present, the SVT Ford truck comes up short against the Dodge... not a guess or subjective opinion...just the facts.

His statement in Autonews is an admission of this and he trys to make the best of it while justifying it too. Sometimes when you backpedal you do "damage control". Damage control statements are usually awkward in context. This is an example, IMO, of such a deal.

On another note, a good pal of mine just did a cross country in the '05 GTO. I think the LS2 will provide big smiles all around for fans.

His statement in Autonews is an admission of this and he trys to make the best of it while justifying it too. Sometimes when you backpedal you do "damage control". Damage control statements are usually awkward in context. This is an example, IMO, of such a deal.

exactly.

Originally posted by hp_nut
That's why I challenge you or anyone to find a vette run faster than 12.9@111 in any big car rag at any time.
Is GM High Tech performance a big enough magazine for you? Probably not, but they got a Vette to run 12.66. IIRC that was a FRC powered by the LS1, but I could be wrong there.

Originally posted by AdioSS
Is GM High Tech performance a big enough magazine for you? Probably not, but they got a Vette to run 12.66. IIRC that was a FRC powered by the LS1, but I could be wrong there.

At the risk of being accused of "magazine racing".....the same folks that test for GMHTP also test for MM&FF. Those folks got a 12.4x out of stock 03 Cobra. I don't remember the issue. I have them all, so if someone has a REALLY hard time with that, I'll go dig it up and scan it.

I'd like to say once again that I really don't like magazine racing. :)

Personally, I think they're pretty damn close, and of course, the Z06 is significantly quicker.

I also realize we're talking straight-line only.

Originally posted by hp_nut

The Boss Mustang to go up against Jon Moss's BBC 572 Camaro and destroyed it in head to head at the track.

I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.

Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.

Fords whupping who?

Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.

Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.

Fords whupping who?

If it didnt break down, then it wouldnt have been a Ford. :D
ZING!!

Coming from someone who owns the symbol of quality...a 305 IROC!
:D
S.

Originally posted by mastrdrver
I believe it when I see it. With the Camaro coming back and talk of RWD sedans coming from GM, I don't see Ford staying where they are for long. These are performance cars, not high quantity cars. If you come in last in hp, you don't sell cars. People won't buy a Cobra when you could possibly have a Camaro for the same price and have more power.


Um, the Camaro had more horsepower than the Mustang from like 1993 until present, and it wasn't outselling the Mustang. not even close.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Really... this stuff is unneeded, especially in this forum.

Want to argue things? Fine. But don't start name calling. :no: This place it too valubale to turn into something like that. Heck, you can say he is "ignorant" if you feel that is the case, but you really don't need to make a peronal attack with the "ass" tacked on.


It's pretty hard to keep patience with a few of the really intelligent guys posting around here lately. Eh, that's what an ignore list is for I guess. :)

No one seems to get, when you see a 700hp Mustang plow through a light and demolish a minivan, you don't think something's gonna give and we're all gonna be assed out? They're saying that adding more horsepower is becoming something that will attract too much negative attention from legislation so they'll make the cars faster in other ways. Why is this difficult or hard for people to understand?

Oh, and here's the most useful link I think I've posted here in a while:
Add Big Al's Z To Your Ignore List!! (http://web.camaross.com/forums/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=44711)

Originally posted by 1fastdog
Don't want a pissing contest, but no it doesn't. You stated that the Cobra outperformed the lightweight C5 HARDTOP. From 2001 on that would be a Z06.

I'm not trying to state that a present gen Cobra isn't a good performing and easy/cheap to mod drag car. Let's avoid stating the obvious, and avoid making Coletti's mistake.

Speaking from a off the showroom floor context, the Cobra's come up short on the strip, and very short on a roadcourse.

As an attempt to stay on topic...My earlier take on Coletti's quote made it clear that he probably would have approached his statement differently had he givin it more thought. Coletti is brash, but not stupid.

Someone previously alluded that Coletti knows more about vehicles than anyone on this site... thing is you never know what folks on this site know or do for a living unless they tell you.

Johm Coletti threw down the gauntlet not that long ago. Made quite a big deal out of it as I recall... His intent was to hand a big can of whoopass to GM and DCX in particular. Particularly in truck offerings. The thing is, at the present, the SVT Ford truck comes up short against the Dodge... not a guess or subjective opinion...just the facts.

His statement in Autonews is an admission of this and he trys to make the best of it while justifying it too. Sometimes when you backpedal you do "damage control". Damage control statements are usually awkward in context. This is an example, IMO, of such a deal.

On another note, a good pal of mine just did a cross country in the '05 GTO. I think the LS2 will provide big smiles all around for fans.


I think I've posted many times the Z06 outruns a stock Cobra. If there are no hardtop non-Z06s in '03/'04, the comparison tilts even further in the stock Cobra's favor. So if outrunning a C5 in the quarter is coming up short at the strip, well you're entitled to that opinion.

The Lightning at $15K less and unchanged since '99 gets beat by a 2004 truck specifically designed to beat it. WOW.

Explain to me how you're backing down in the hp war when you're bringing out a 500+hp blown 5.4 Lightning next year that will tear the SRT-10 a new one? I think if DCX comes back in few years with a 700hp 8.3 Hemi V-10, yeah sure then it's time to consider backing down. You can try to spin Colleti's words to make you feel better, but Ford's upcoming Lightning, Cobra, and NA 5.4 stangs don't show any backing down.

The LS2 will let the GTO avoid being embarrassed by a $25K Mustang GT. That's a good thing.




Originally posted by AdioSS
Is GM High Tech performance a big enough magazine for you? Probably not, but they got a Vette to run 12.66. IIRC that was a FRC powered by the LS1, but I could be wrong there.


Evan Smith could drive a Honda Civic to a 14 flat.

Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.

Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.

Fords whupping who?


I think you're wrong on who blew up at the track. The Ford stayed together. The Chevy spilled it's guts all over the asphalt.

And you got the part about who won right.

And left out that the Ford was down by about 72ci in displacement.

And you left out the the first 2 examples of Cobra beating vette and Lightning vs nothing.

Yeah I'd say Ford's laying a pretty good one on GM right now.

Originally posted by hp_nut


Yeah I'd say Ford's laying a pretty good one on GM right now.

Because GM is taking their time bringing their beasts to market. Ford is doing well right now, while GM is loading its guns for retaliation. Ford has spent the last decade behind GM, its about time for them to take the point for awhile. ;)

You have things mixed up

That Boss Mustang was a "604", I even think Coletti didn't want to give the exact displacement. Basicly a 10L motor and bigger than the Chevy.

I know both cars had problems but I don't remember what broke on each.

Just from memory.....

I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.

The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.

Originally posted by hp_nut
So if outrunning a C5 in the quarter is coming up short at the strip, well you're entitled to that opinion.

The Lightning at $15K less and unchanged since '99 gets beat by a 2004 truck specifically designed to beat it. WOW.

Explain to me how you're backing down in the hp war when you're bringing out a 500+hp blown 5.4 Lightning next year that will tear the SRT-10 a new one? I think if DCX comes back in few years with a 700hp 8.3 Hemi V-10, yeah sure then it's time to consider backing down. You can try to spin Colleti's words to make you feel better, but Ford's upcoming Lightning, Cobra, and NA 5.4 stangs don't show any backing down.

A Z06 is a C5...

As for backing down, that's Coletti's statement and not mine. Regardless of drag prowess, high performance pick-ups don't really do it for me. They do have a following, just not at my house.

We shall see when the SVT offerings make their reappearance what Coletti meant to say or didn't mean to say.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Just from memory.....

I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.

The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.

from Car and Driver.

Meantime, we hear that the Boss is wounded. The cup end of an exhaust pushrod has shattered, leaving the stub free to do a million jabs at the billet rocker arm. The Camaro leads now by the slimmest of margins, 0.01 second. The Ford crew is working four cell phones--"Anybody have a 1.7 exhaust rocker for a Boss 9?"

that was from the drag race

The Ford camp expected more, a lot more, and they go into a huddle as Chevy pilot Kurt Urban works with the five-speed Camaro. His first pass is an 11.05 at 131.45 mph. But the engine misfires on the next run, and drops 6 mph.
From the pits, we hear the Boss wasn't getting full throttle: "carpet balled up under the gas pedal." And the Camaro has closed the gap on two spark plugs: "weren't indexed right so the pistons whacked 'em."

twisties.
Round Two, GingerMan Raceway: Staffer and ardent road racer Tony Swan will be our designated driver today on this 1.9-mile ribbon of blacktop draped over the gentle contours of western Michigan farm country.

Moss's test driver reports that the Camaro's oil pressure drops to zero in right turns, which is most of them. To save the motor, Swan will drive in fifth gear, using fourth only to exit crucial turns.
The black car flashes in the sun, visible most of the way around the circuit, as the big three-inch exhausts play fortissimo, then pianissimo, at the direction of maestro Swan's right foot. We hear mild axle hop under hard braking--something we've found in the street Camaros, too--but the laps are otherwise uneventful.

As the Boss rumbles out of the pits, it seems the bettor's choice to sweep the match. With its solid horsepower advantage, viewed against the Camaro's handicap of fading oil pressure, it has Moss in the Rolaids mode today. Lap one looks good, quicker than the Camaro's first. Uh-oh, the sound went soft. Something wrong. From behind a crest the red Ford emerges, limping toward the pits.
Swan unbuckles. "Oil pressure's gone," he reports. The mechanics look at one another, remembering those fragments of steel they couldn't retrieve yesterday.

Ford vs. Chevy ends in a stalemate.

Hmmmm, maybe its just me, but I'm still trying to figure out what a race between 2 vehicles that have next to nothing familiar with anything in production from their respective manufacturers has to do with what Colletti said, meant, or what the next Lightning will be like.

I guess I'm just not able to read between the lines like some of you.

We all have a pretty good idea on what the next Lightning will offer............. those of us who currently own one maybe a bit more (due to the survey that Ford had us take on them).

Beyond that, not alot is known about anything. To sit here and say one company is better than the other based on vehicles that noone knows much about is pretty silly.

However, in the spirit of the discussion............. I think the 2026 Cobra will inhialate any GM product made, so Ford is the best. :rolleyes:

Some of the GM diehards here have a hard time reading what GuionM has to say, because he does not spend his entire posting time gushing praise on anything and everything GM. In other words, he is not a cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.

As much as many here may not want to admit is, Ford and SVT proved to the rest of the large manufacturing community that it was possible to make low production niche vehicles.......... and make money doing so. Up to that point, noone had had much success (remembering that the Syclone/Typhoon and Silverado 454SS were discontinued due to poor sales). One thing that many like to forget, is that SVT division was never about all out speed to the detriment of everything else. It has always been about balance. Balancing speed, handling, ride, comfort and amenities at a price that a large amount of the populace can stomache.

PVO is doing it a bit different. The main criteria is speed, with little effort given to ride comfort, and short of the SRT-4, little concern over accessibility (read some of the available information about the harsh ride of the Ram SRT-10 to understand what I mean). Not everyone can afford $45-50K+ vehicles, however the pool of people who can swing a $30-35K vehicle is much larger. While the next generation Lightning is expected to come in above $35K, do not expect it to be north of $40K.

Hopefully GM's performance division will try to make vehicles more in the vein of SVT. In other words, "relatively" affordable vehicles that are easy to live with on a daily basis.

We will just have to see.

Originally posted by MunchE
Oh, and here's the most useful link I think I've posted here in a while:
Add Big Al's Z To Your Ignore List!! (http://web.camaross.com/forums/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=44711)

Dude! Thanks man!

Originally posted by 94LightningGal
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.


What an INCREDIBLY insightful set of comments. :bow:
This concept alone sets the true "car-nut" apart from the brand-loyalist.
I think as we age, we see this more prevalently too.
It takes all kinds to make the system go, ya know?
'Nuf said.

As for Coletti's comments - he's spot on.
They can make 1000hp monsters, but by the time the government and insurance companies get through with you, you won't be able to afford driving it AFTER you buy it - so what's the point?

Personally, I keep harping on the secret to Mustang's success for the past 20 years, and "best HP in class" AIN'T what did it. :no: I'll hand over the max HP trophy to GM, DCX, or anybody else in a heartbeat, as long as the common Mustang keeps itself easy to mod and customize in the trade. Sure it's nice to have the hp right from the OEM, but that should be the exclusion, not the rule for a ponycar IMO.

And on another aspect, heck, I much more enjoy having people think I drive a plain ol' 225hp 5.0 when they decide to jump on me at a light! ;) It's MUCH harder to play with folks when they KNOW you are in a 400hp car.

Just my .02 . :cool:

Considering this is a GM board, er, A Camaro Board, I would say that most people's expectations here beyond horespower are very low. I like my camaro because I think it looks great, and has power....Would I pay sticker for a new 02? Heck no, why, when I can buy a 93 for 1/5th of hte price and get the same thing.

GM Is being smacked around by every car company out there. Besides the Vette, there is nothing exciting around the 30k mark. And a GTO is not a gto, its a friggin 2 door grand prix with a bigger motor and blander looks. =)

I admire what Ford is doing, they win customers over and they keep them. They know how to market their cars to a wide variety of customers as well.

But just a little note....There is MORE to car ownership than horsepower and alot of people here especially put too much emphasis on it. With that said....there is nothing Exciting about GM south of 40k. While over at any other car company, you can get alot more for less.

Originally posted by ProudPony
What an INCREDIBLY insightful set of comments. :bow:
This concept alone sets the true "car-nut" apart from the brand-loyalist.
I think as we age, we see this more prevalently too.
It takes all kinds to make the system go, ya know?
'Nuf said.

As for Coletti's comments - he's spot on.
They can make 1000hp monsters, but by the time the government and insurance companies get through with you, you won't be able to afford driving it AFTER you buy it - so what's the point?

Personally, I keep harping on the secret to Mustang's success for the past 20 years, and "best HP in class" AIN'T what did it. :no: I'll hand over the max HP trophy to GM, DCX, or anybody else in a heartbeat, as long as the common Mustang keeps itself easy to mod and customize in the trade. Sure it's nice to have the hp right from the OEM, but that should be the exclusion, not the rule for a ponycar IMO.

And on another aspect, heck, I much more enjoy having people think I drive a plain ol' 225hp 5.0 when they decide to jump on me at a light! ;) It's MUCH harder to play with folks when they KNOW you are in a 400hp car.

Just my .02 . :cool:



This makes no sense. What EXACTLY is easier to mod on a 4.6 OHC stang than the pushrod LS1 Camaro? I keep hearing this all the time, "Ford makes it easy to mod." BS What, do they keep your warranty going or something? Ford's the one voiding warranties left and right in a penny pinching madness gone overboard not GM.

BTW there are 10x as many heads and cam LS1s running around as 4.6 stangs. Modability has nothing to do with why the stang is still around.

It's simply a more usable everyday car than a Camaro. Women love V6 stangs.

And the Mustang has the MOST HP. It's called a 425hp Cobra and it needs every last one to get its fat ass past the quarter mile in front of the vette.

Let's not create myths about stangs not being about HP and performance. What it really was about is people compromising on factory performance for the greater utility of the stang. But that game don't work no more in 2004. Not when you have the GTO, 300C, Magnum and SRT-4, etc. Everyone on the stang boards is drooling over the "reports" of the '05 being WAY underrated. Lemme tell you. The first dyno that shows it really only makes 300hp and is only running high 13s to 14 flat is when the stang fans are going run away in disappointment.