Yet another reason to love Ford's SVT

The story of how Mitsubishi "mysteriously" finds out who has been racing their cars has been beaten pretty well.

It's also no secret that although other makers also void your warranty for racing, they actually seem to wait till the part fails till they look into whether you were racing or not.

But buried in this latest story on the subject is this little blurb:

One rare exception is track day events organized, sponsored and sanctioned by the national Ford SVT Owners’ Association and local Ford/SVT dealers. Owners bring their cars, and the association and participating dealers agree to cover any mechanical failures brought on by normal track use.

“Owners can participate in the instructional days without automatically voiding their warranties,” says Ford Performance Vehicles spokesman Alan Hall. “Obviously if they abuse it [the car] on the track, or there’s a part that breaks due to aggressive driving, that will not be covered under warranty. But your warranty will not be voided across the board by just participating in that event. We don’t automatically void a warranty unless above-normal abuse is shown on a vehicle.”
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02612566

Add to that, front of the line service at the Ford SVT dealer, direct contact lines to SVT's top guys, hand built engines, and a professional Hot Rodder running the thing, and that's a winning enthusiasts combination.

Regardless as to whether you hate Fords or not, you can't argue that their SVT organization is 1st rate! :thumb:

Dodge does the same thing at their sponsored events.

Untill they close up shop, I could care less about SVT.
Does John Colleti race at all? How about Speed TV's GT racing series? Wait...I know who does... John Hienricy, GM's director of performance. He came in 3rd behind the 2 audi's in his seperate, specialy tuned CTS-V.

I really hope that GMPD becomes more like SVT. SVT runs a pretty tight ship.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Untill they close up shop, I could care less about SVT.

So SVT going away would make you happy? Interesting concept. See "GM apologist" comment in previous threads. Personally, I'd like to see GM and Chrysler with something similar to SVT (SLP sort of organization?). Competition is good, and improves the breed of all.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Does John Colleti race at all? How about Speed TV's GT racing series? Wait...I know who does... John Hienricy, GM's director of performance. He came in 3rd behind the 2 audi's in his seperate, specialy tuned CTS-V.
Couldn't tell ya. However, I can tell you that Ford ponies up $6000-$10000 to win the Modular class at all 13 FFW events, and a brand new Mustang GT for the season points winner.

What does GM do for their grass-roots drag racers?

GM does need an "in house" tuner deal like ford has with SVT and chrysler... I mean, Holden has had HSV for how long? I'm not sure but it's been a while, if we want a 440horse supercharged ls1 from the factory with a warranty the only option we have is to move to Australia.

GM seems to just dump the cars off at street legal performance and say "make a firehawk..."

:bow: SVT :bow: Maybe this will inspire GM to do something similar.

I'm not all that impressed about the warranty protection. It's still quite simple for SVT/Ford to void a warranty due to mods. Really, what's the likelihood of something big failing on a stock vehicle during track use?

Actually a far bigger issue to me when I go to the track, is having no insurance coverage.

"Obviously if they abuse it [the car] on the track, or there’s a part that breaks due to aggressive driving, that will not be covered under warranty."

so if you do aggressively driving on a track, say staying at 4000+ rpms the whole time, and redlining it on every shift coming down the straight... and you cook your power steering pump and rack seals, spin a bearing from oil starvation at high rpm's and g's around turns, and burn out a hub from the extreme heat.. its that abuse and not covered?


EDIT: oh i get it.. some plcaes would just automatically void your warantee if they find out you were at an event. Ford will take a look into it, then decide if they will not cover the repairs..

I'm still not completely clear how they can make determinations of abuse after a track session.

Sounds like a flashy pander-to-the-enthusiast scheme to me.

posted by Big Alz Z
Untill they close up shop, I could care less about SVT.And I'm sure they could care less about you. :rolleyes: Unable to appreciate anything with a blue oval on it, you're apparently under the misguided impression that the unlikely failure of SVT would somehow benefit GM fans. Stupid theory.
You should be hoping SVT sells as many cars are they can instead of whining because you don't like Ford. Why do you think PVO exists? What would spur GM to create such a division if SVT were to fail? Put your Ford-hating mantra aside and think about it. :rolleyes:
Does John Colleti race at all? How about Speed TV's GT racing series?Who gives a sh*t if he races or not. He's empowered SVT to build kick @ss cars and trucks. Does Lutz race? Wait...I don't race in the Speed TV GT racing series...I guess I'd better sell the Cobra, GT and Buick. I'm not worthy of owning them because I'm not a real enthusiast because I don't race in the Speed TV GT racing series. How about you? Do you race at all? :rolleyes:
S.

Originally posted by Snorman
And I'm sure they could care less about you. :rolleyes: Unable to appreciate anything with a blue oval on it, you're apparently under the misguided impression that the unlikely failure of SVT would somehow benefit GM fans. Stupid theory.
You should be hoping SVT sells as many cars are they can instead of whining because you don't like Ford. Why do you think PVO exists? What would spur GM to create such a division if SVT were to fail? Put your Ford-hating mantra aside and think about it. :rolleyes:
[/b]
No, if SVT failed, then GM will still have its performance division, as well as POV would still exisit. Ill keep my Ford-Hating mantra front and center.

Who gives a sh*t if he races or not. He's empowered SVT to build kick @ss cars and trucks. Does Lutz race? Wait...I don't race in the Speed TV GT racing series...I guess I'd better sell the Cobra, GT and Buick. I'm not worthy of owning them because I'm not a real enthusiast because I don't race in the Speed TV GT racing series. How about you? Do you race at all? :rolleyes:
S.

Not saying his HAS to, as you have taken my post way out of context, as usual. Lutz doesnt have to race as he is not in charge of GMPD, Hienricy is. It shows that he is a bit more dedicated to his product then Colleti is, at least IMO.
Go ahead and sell your cars, I could give a crap. Not saying you HAVE to race, but IMO, if you ran a "performance" group, it shows that you support your own team. Yeah, Colleti comes up with good cars. Any of them in racing? Does SVT ever go into any type of performace racing outside of Ford paying pennys to drag racing? Does SVT actualy enter any of there cars? Both GMPD and PVO do. Why not SVT if they are so good and awesome?

Ill keep my Ford-Hating mantra front and center. Big surprise there. I could put a Chevy emblem on a turd and you'd worship it as the best thing on the road. :bow:
It shows that he is a bit more dedicated to his product then Colleti is, at least IMO. Yup...in your opinion. The truth is, you have no idea what level of dedication either man has to their product other than assumption and the fact that Heinricy races competitively and (presumably) Colleti does not. I doubt Ford or Chevy required applicants to be currently involved in competitive racing to qualify.
Go ahead and sell your cars, I could give a crap.Nah...I think I'll keep them. Then I can make informed statements about fast cars instead of guessing.
Yeah, Colleti comes up with good cars. Any of them in racing? Does SVT ever go into any type of performace racing outside of Ford paying pennys to drag racing? Does SVT actualy enter any of there cars? Both GMPD and PVO do. Why not SVT if they are so good and awesome?ROTFLMAO! Who cares?! SVT's products speak for themselves. GM sponsoring a C5R effort means little to me. Dodge fielding a Viper is nice, but it has little bearing on what I'm buying in the showroom.

I laugh at such blindly-biased brand-loyalty. Your hatred of Ford borderlines on fanatical, criticizing even non-biased folks such as guionM for making negative comments about GM and praising Ford for anything. :cry:
S.

Originally posted by Snorman
Yup...in your opinion. The truth is, you have no idea what level of dedication either man has to their product other than assumption and the fact that Heinricy races competitively and (presumably) Colleti does not. I doubt Ford or Chevy required applicants to be currently involved in competitive racing to qualify.
Ford nor GM require it...thats what makes me think that Heinricy is a bit more dedicated then Colleti is to the performance of there product.

ROTFLMAO! Who cares?! SVT's products speak for themselves. GM sponsoring a C5R effort means little to me. Dodge fielding a Viper is nice, but it has little bearing on what I'm buying in the showroom.

I laugh at such blindly-biased brand-loyalty. Your hatred of Ford borderlines on fanatical, criticizing even non-biased folks such as guionM for making negative comments about GM and praising Ford for anything. :cry:
S.

GM's sponsoring doesnt mean jack to you, but it does to someone or GM wouldnt be in it for too long. And GM wining year after year also shows that GM isnt just there for show. Im not biased...I just dont like Ford. :D

Jesus christ. You know you're not going to change his opinion and you guys still bicker. If you go into your options you can igore users, if his ford hate discourages you guys so much then just freakin block him, I've just done that for all three of you. Stop ruining good threads.

Sorry, I didn't see Jesus Christ post anywhere in this thread :confused: Anyway, I try to ignore Al as much as possible, one reason why I haven't responded much to him lately. He's just ignorant, biased beyond reason and likes to make stupid posts to make people mad. The only people that will agree with him are ones that are pretty much the same, even if they don't show it as much.

Now, back to topic. I'd like to see GM do something like SVT, but I don't think it'll happen for awhile (long while). Ford and GM just don't think a like in this arena. Dodge however, has seen the light and is following Ford down the trail of historic cars that will create legends (and myths). They are creating a fan base that will drive sales of all their products. Sponsoring events that will attract people and make them loyal regardless if their car is the best performing or not. Yes, there will even be people like Al in that group, but we can look past them.

Originally posted by PaperTarget
Sorry, I didn't see Jesus Christ post anywhere in this thread :confused: Anyway, I try to ignore Al as much as possible, one reason why I haven't responded much to him lately. He's just ignorant, biased beyond reason and likes to make stupid posts to make people mad. The only people that will agree with him are ones that are pretty much the same, even if they don't show it as much.

Now, back to topic. I'd like to see GM do something like SVT, but I don't think it'll happen for awhile (long while). Ford and GM just don't think a like in this arena. Dodge however, has seen the light and is following Ford down the trail of historic cars that will create legends (and myths). They are creating a fan base that will drive sales of all their products. Sponsoring events that will attract people and make them loyal regardless if their car is the best performing or not. Yes, there will even be people like Al in that group, but we can look past them.

Al's entitled to an opinion and so are you. I'd rather see a well constructed arguement instead of a few guys jumping down one gearhead's back. Come strong with facts without all the fluff and bad blood, fellas. At the end of the day, he's on our side.

Gotta throw my $.o2 in here.

I am a GM guy and hopefully will be if GM can build something with excitement that doesn't cost an absolute fortune... I don't really like the Fords all that much but honestly, I like what they are doing with their cars.

They are seeing the want/need for the performance cars, both RWD and FWD and its showing in the SVT products...

I do think they need a strong lesson on interior design (less the new F150's) but overall, they are at least producing some of the cars they promise.

Originally posted by NJSPEEDER24
Al's entitled to an opinion and so are you. I'd rather see a well constructed arguement instead of a few guys jumping down one gearhead's back. Come strong with facts without all the fluff and bad blood, fellas. At the end of the day, he's on our side.
I agree. Let's find the "well constructed arguements" and "facts without all the fluff" in the following quotes:

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Untill they close up shop, I could care less about SVT.
Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ill keep my Ford-Hating mantra front and center.
Originally posted by Big Als Z
Go ahead and sell your cars, I could give a crap.
Originally posted by Big Als Z
Im not biased...I just dont like Ford.
Constructive facts with no fluff. All from this thread.

Humble apologies for contributing to the ruining of this thread.

:rolleyes: Please, whenever someone bad mouths anything from Ford on this site, there is a royal beat down on anyone who speaks up. God forbid they have an opinion. But when Its Anti-GM, its a band wagon of fun.
I said my piece with out any attacts on anyone personaly. I stated my opinion, which in the United States, I am allowed to have. Having the head of the performance divison get out from behind his desk and drive a race-preped car that is 75% of what he worked on and built for production shows dedication that no one at Ford has shown. That is dedication to me. Not paying a few thousand to some guy at a race track.
Having performance engineers actualy RACE in a car they built was praised at one time, now its over-looked and who gives. GMPD has just started, so its name isnt as big as SVT, but the dedication of GM not only to put these cars in racing, but to have the head engineer drive one of them, that shows that GMPD is a bit more dedicated then SVT is.
If you want to keep your Ford-Biased opinion on this site, I get to keep my Anti-Ford opinions.

Let's take the fight to the playground, shall we kiddies? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Big Als Z
:rolleyes: Please, whenever someone bad mouths anything from Ford on this site, there is a royal beat down on anyone who speaks up. God forbid they have an opinion. But when Its Anti-GM, its a band wagon of fun.
I said my piece with out any attacts on anyone personaly. I stated my opinion, which in the United States, I am allowed to have. Having the head of the performance divison get out from behind his desk and drive a race-preped car that is 75% of what he worked on and built for production shows dedication that no one at Ford has shown. That is dedication to me. Not paying a few thousand to some guy at a race track.
Having performance engineers actualy RACE in a car they built was praised at one time, now its over-looked and who gives. GMPD has just started, so its name isnt as big as SVT, but the dedication of GM not only to put these cars in racing, but to have the head engineer drive one of them, that shows that GMPD is a bit more dedicated then SVT is.
If you want to keep your Ford-Biased opinion on this site, I get to keep my Anti-Ford opinions.


Of course you are entitled to an opinion Al, but when you say that you wish SVT was gone, you must have some logical reason for saying that.

If you don't have a reason.....and you say that because you simply don't like Ford, that's ok too.

But know this, get rid of SVT, Ford, Mustang, DCX LX cars....and pretty much all other competition.......and you'll be driving a 68 hp, $40,000, Aveo SS.

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Let's take the fight to the playground, shall we kiddies? :rolleyes:
LOL. You are, of course, quite correct. Perhaps we can take this to a more appropriate Forum, such as the Lounge? That way I won't have to resist the urge to tear into his response line by line. Such fun. :)

Sorry - I'll drop it here.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
:rolleyes: Please, whenever someone bad mouths anything from Ford on this site, there is a royal beat down on anyone who speaks up. God forbid they have an opinion. But when Its Anti-GM, its a band wagon of fun.
I said my piece with out any attacts on anyone personaly. I stated my opinion, which in the United States, I am allowed to have. Having the head of the performance divison get out from behind his desk and drive a race-preped car that is 75% of what he worked on and built for production shows dedication that no one at Ford has shown. That is dedication to me. Not paying a few thousand to some guy at a race track.
Having performance engineers actualy RACE in a car they built was praised at one time, now its over-looked and who gives. GMPD has just started, so its name isnt as big as SVT, but the dedication of GM not only to put these cars in racing, but to have the head engineer drive one of them, that shows that GMPD is a bit more dedicated then SVT is.
If you want to keep your Ford-Biased opinion on this site, I get to keep my Anti-Ford opinions.



Just tell me what car GMPD and it's racing leader have produced for me to buy at the dealership?

Originally posted by hp_nut
Just tell me what car GMPD and it's racing leader have produced for me to buy at the dealership?

CTSv. I asked the same question a little while back and the response I got was that although GM does not put GMPD on the car or in its' title, they have their hands in the development in the hi-po version of cars. Id assume they were behind the Redline cars of Saturn and also the upcomming Cobalt SS S/C.

I am shocked with how little knowledge AL has about SVT. The "WHOLE" engineering staff drove the prototype Ford GT's. They do this with ALL of SVT's test bed's. Cobra,Lightning and Focus.
I would'nt call this forum "Ford Biased" (I am a TRUE Ford man myself! :bow: ) the people who post here are "CAR guys" which give respect where respect is due.... I for one love the C6 now, But hated it when I first saw it.;)

Now I could say the Corvette is the worst car EVER built because you can't carry more then 2 people, But that would be "biased"-But of the "anti-Chevy" variety. :D

Please, whenever someone bad mouths anything from Ford on this site, there is a royal beat down on anyone who speaks up. God forbid they have an opinion. But when Its Anti-GM, its a band wagon of fun.

AMEN to that. Having been at the receiving end of a few such beatings, I can attest to it :D

Last time I checked, members here were allowed to express their opinions and provide as much or as little justification as they want to. I don't feel the entire or majority membership is biased towards Ford... but there are definitely a few highly vocal Ford fans posting here who, while within their rights, seem to be on a mission to dispute and suppress anyone posting criticism of Ford and its products. There are also many others who IMHO are preoccupied with what I'll call 'auto enthusiast political correctness', a philosophy that all performance cars are supposed to be uniformly praised whether one likes them or not. I'm not surprised therefore, to see this kind of reaction when someone gripes about Ford... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bob Cosby
Couldn't tell ya. However, I can tell you that Ford ponies up $6000-$10000 to win the Modular class at all 13 FFW events, and a brand new Mustang GT for the season points winner.

What does GM do for their grass-roots drag racers?

You SHOULD be able to tell such things...

Congrats on winning Factory Stock at Bradenton this year!:thumb:
The 99 Cobra looks great!
Best of luck for a strong run this year.

I don't think there's a chance that Mopar or GM will ever have a single car that can spawn it's own racing league the way the NMRA has developed. But I sure think that the factory-sponsored events are the right way to get into the fray.

I was just looking at the Ford Racing catalog tonight for a crate engine to go in a '92 GT I recently scored (for $450 no less), and I was taken aback by the amount of support in the back of the catalog for everything from Whipple superchargers to APC Euro taillights - in the FRPP catalog!!!
My initial thought was, "Why do they put all this stuff in a catalog that FoMoCo prints and sell over the counter for $5?". But then I realized why... Cha-ching - another Mustang sold somewhere.

Times are changing in our automotive world, aren't they guys? :cool:

I'm not gonna bend this all up, but I want to QUICKLY throw out a few facts...

Coletti does not actively race in any series for points or championships that I am aware of. BUT HE DID.
He actually has quite the racing past - heavy in drag racing but fluent in road courses as well. I'm not searching/linking - if anyone here cares, ask Jeeves.

He concentrates on corporate politics and development nowadays, and is doing apretty d@mn good job if you ask me. He does show up at FFW events and Mustang shows from time to time, and yes, he can do a helluva one-handed burnout (drifting I guess was more like it) while grinning and whooping it up.

As for SVT feilding a race team - no they don't directly feild a team. they DO however have their stuff in just about every Ford out there from SCCA to Trans AM to NHRA. What SVT markets are RACE PARTS - the same ones in the race cars are the ones you can get at the local Ford dealer and KNOW they will fit your car and work right.

Lastly, many of the peices in FRPP catalogs and used on SVT Cobras and Lightnings are actually developed by race teams we all know well, including Jack Roush, Robert Yates, Dario Orlando, and others.
Yates racing heads for the 5.0 are Ford FRPP # M-6049-C35 $1195/set
Holman-Moody dual plane intake is Ford FRPP # C4HM-9425-SA $649
Steeda Q400R high perf heads are Ford FRPP # 6049-D46 $895/set
All of these parts are on race-winning cars. Popular cars.

So NO, SVT doesn't feild a race team - but they develop and distribute parts and cars to consumers. Personally, I'm glad they don't dump $-millions of their scarce budget into commercializing what they already have - I'd much rather they put the corporate dollars into developing better rides for me at great prices, and let the commercialization of race sponsorship go to the laundry detergent, oil, gas, and beer companies.

No flames, no foul, no harm to anyone...
Just gimme the parts and fast cars!:thumb:

Actually, if you all would think about this, it is the cheapest form of R&D a single company could do for their cars and products!!! what better way to see how your design works in real world environments, uncontrolled circumstances, different drivers, different style and ages, etc etc.. and see what happens. You also get all of your mkt research done in one spot. You see what people like and dislike in their cars, you can observe patterns and car behaviors on the race track, etc and in the end build a better and superior product.

SVT is first rate in their R&D sector, if something breaks, you bet they damn well want to know why and how. Sometimes if the issue is strange enough, they literally send the engineer(s) out to the shop that has the car to figure things out, do a report, and plan of action for future cars. SVT builds race cars, they set up races, they cannot void your whole warranty for racing, especially races they sanctioned. If parts break, they rip it apart, research it, determine if something was defective, and replace. SVT knows what defective and whats abused.

Just food for thought is all this is:cool:

Originally posted by Chuck!
CTSv. I asked the same question a little while back and the response I got was that although GM does not put GMPD on the car or in its' title, they have their hands in the development in the hi-po version of cars. Id assume they were behind the Redline cars of Saturn and also the upcomming Cobalt SS S/C.



OK

GMPD - CTSv, Redline, Cobalt SS
SVT - Cobra, Lightning, Focus

So who's doing a better job?

Originally posted by hp_nut
OK

GMPD - CTSv, Redline, Cobalt SS
SVT - Cobra, Lightning, Focus

So who's doing a better job?

Well, the SVT Focus is dead... and the Lightning and CObra are on hold for the new versions... so.... :think:

IMHO, the most exciting car in the group you listed is CTS-V.

Overall, though, the Fords, as a group, are more exciting.

Originally posted by hp_nut
OK

GMPD - CTSv, Redline, Cobalt SS
SVT - Cobra, Lightning, Focus

So who's doing a better job?

GMPD just started what , maybe 2 years ago and SVT has been around for how long? The CTS-V is a sweet machine while they took a crappy ION and actually made it decent. They've taken two of GM's compacts and have punted them near the top of the sport compact list, not too bad IMO. Sure the Cobra and Lightning are more exciting, because they're RWD supercharged v8 machines while GMPD has only worked with a handful of vehicles so far and majority have been FWD 4 bangers.

I'm sure we all will like GMPD's talent alot more once they start rolling out their versions of the Zeta vehicles and I'm sure they have a hand in on the Z06 and rumored "Blue Devil" and CTS Super V.

Originally posted by Chuck!
Jesus christ. You know you're not going to change his opinion and you guys still bicker. If you go into your options you can igore users, if his ford hate discourages you guys so much then just freakin block him, I've just done that for all three of you. Stop ruining good threads.

Good idea, all of these guys with "Big" in their name seem to be annoying fanboys. ;) IGNORED!

Suits me fine... maybe there will be less abuse of true GM enthusiasts here...

So SORRY I like GM cars more than other makes, NOT... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by MunchE
Good idea, all of these guys with "Big" in their name seem to be annoying fanboys. ;) IGNORED!

Whatever floats your boat big guy.

Originally posted by SFireGT98
GMPD just started what , maybe 2 years ago and SVT has been around for how long? The CTS-V is a sweet machine while they took a crappy ION and actually made it decent. They've taken two of GM's compacts and have punted them near the top of the sport compact list, not too bad IMO. Sure the Cobra and Lightning are more exciting, because they're RWD supercharged v8 machines while GMPD has only worked with a handful of vehicles so far and majority have been FWD 4 bangers.

I'm sure we all will like GMPD's talent alot more once they start rolling out their versions of the Zeta vehicles and I'm sure they have a hand in on the Z06 and rumored "Blue Devil" and CTS Super V.


Well the CTSv is a $52K car.

And as noted above the Focus got booted from SVT, definitely a good thing.

So for us 40hr a week working schmucks, we can go down to SVT and hop in a Cobra or Lightning or over to GMPD and test out a Redline Ion or Cobalt SS.

This brings up a point I made many moons ago. GM has left us working guys hanging out to dry. It's real nifty to point to $40K C5's, $52K CTSv's, $52K C5 Z06s. Even the GTO until recently was really a $38- $40K car with all the gouging going on. But most guys are never gonna really own one. Not any time soon. SVT is right there making a $30K asphalt burning Cobra and Lightning that I could go out and buy easily tomorrow. They're doing what I want out of a performance division. DCX is doing the same thing with the 300C and Magnum. The SRT-10 is expensive but it came out suprisingly cheaper than expectations. GM would've charged $60K for that truck and you know it. The SRT-4 is the $20K performance car. The new stang GT is cheap for the high performance.

Where's GM's affordable performance? Cobalt SS? Redline? Not good enough.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Well the CTSv is a $52K car.

And as noted above the Focus got booted from SVT, definitely a good thing.

So for us 40hr a week working schmucks, we can go down to SVT and hop in a Cobra or Lightning or over to GMPD and test out a Redline Ion or Cobalt SS.

This brings up a point I made many moons ago. GM has left us working guys hanging out to dry. It's real nifty to point to $40K C5's, $52K CTSv's, $52K C5 Z06s. Even the GTO until recently was really a $38- $40K car with all the gouging going on. But most guys are never gonna really own one. Not any time soon. SVT is right there making a $30K asphalt burning Cobra and Lightning that I could go out and buy easily tomorrow. They're doing what I want out of a performance division. DCX is doing the same thing with the 300C and Magnum. The SRT-10 is expensive but it came out suprisingly cheaper than expectations. GM would've charged $60K for that truck and you know it. The SRT-4 is the $20K performance car. The new stang GT is cheap for the high performance.

Where's GM's affordable performance? Cobalt SS? Redline? Not good enough.

All good points. Alot of GM's performance vehicles are out of reach right now. That my friend is the void that was left by the Camaro. Four years ago, affordable GM performance had two names, Camaro and Firebird. Once the 5th gen returns, GM will have an affordable, working man's sports car, along with many other affordable performance cars.

Right now, Ford and DCX are living it up. GM is gonna be a little late to the party, but I can wait. Guys like you can go out and buy some decent 30k performance cars. But me and others on this board will be finishing up college right around the time GM rolls out its bread and butter performance vehicles. Then I'll be there, cash in hand. :cool:

One thing that is nice right now is the fact that we can finally argue about REAL performance cars coming from the Big 3 again! Ford, Chrysler, and GM are distancing themselves from the import wave performance wise. We're talking 400, 500, and 600hp here coming from the Big 3 and the old rivalries are heating back up. Kudos to all the Big 3 for cranking up the heat and churning out good ole fashion Detroit muscle again! :thumb:

Remind me how 30k is "affordable"?
People looking at the 20k Cobalt SS and Redline arent looking at 35k Cobras and L's.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Remind me how 30k is "affordable"?
People looking at the 20k Cobalt SS and Redline arent looking at 35k Cobras and L's.

Good point. And which folks are looking at the $52K caddy's that you are having wet dreams about in another post?

Maybe we could all slow down for just a minute or two.

There are folks here that are strictly in the Blue Oval camp, some diehard GM fans. Some couldn't care less what it is as long as it suits them and they can afford it.

When you talk about performance on the internet, you are usually talking drag racing. At least it's been my experience and I read a lot of forums as small part of what I do for a living. Drag racing is not what all performance minded folks want out of a vehicle. GM has almost always shot for a power AND handling approach in hi-perf cars over a straightline only stormer, particularly in the last couple of decades.

GM Performance Division is a fairly recent approach but it's manned by some long experienced folks, many that were previously Corvette/Camaro or Racing, or a combo of both. That which is forthcoming remains to be seen. The CTSV is a strong handling car and for it to lose any sign of wheelhop would be to dial out road handling. The CTS-V isn't aimed at bracket racers.

As for grassroots racing?? That's a somewhat interesting deal on it's own. I local/regional bracket racing I see far more old school Chevy SB's, or way more old school Chevy Rat motors than Ford powered stuff. What I'm speaking of is the regional weekend warrior types that run in a Gas or Super Gas, Comp or Super Comp folks running electronics. Drag racing is an predominantly North American soprt, with some interest elsewhere. It's otherwise off the radar for most of the world's motorsports enthusiasts.

The utmost high end of drag racing has no correlation at all to car sales. Perhaps DCX is making some collateral hay from the "Hemi" deal but let's face it...they dropped out of roadracing to be involved in NASCAR. I find the whole "hemi" thing rather amusing. A Hemi, in my mind. is a 7 liter, hard to tune for the street but a yehaw monster in race tune legend. Not a LS1 wannabe as I see the latest "Hemi". < Sorry, I digress. >

The recent Cobras are performance cars, as are others. I'm doubtful that the 300c can be seen as a drag candidate as it way short on power considering it's weight. Handling is what you think it is, in some respects. I found the 300c to be a brick and becmes even moreso the harder you drive it.

Maybe "value" is a good word to use in a hi-perf vehicle context.

The Cobra is a value to the buyer who has an interest in the easy modability of the powertrain, with the exception of the differential. Nonetheless, SVT is down for a year. We'll see what they have coming.

GMPD has some things in the pipe and we'll see if anyone finds them to be a good value.

There's a distinct difference between "affordable" and "value" when it come to cars, in as much as affordable has to to with what's in your budget, and value is what's in your heart. When the two meet you have a car sale.

For everyone that has a positive experience with a Ford SVT dealership, I'm sure there are just as many with negative experiences. I am one of those people. After three out of three "bad experiences" with the same dealer, I finally gave up and found a privateer that has much better service and works with me to make sure I am satisfied. I had figured that a Ford SVT dealer, especially one with Rousch Super Mustangs in its showroom, would be the perfect place to take my son's supercharged Mustang GT... obviously that just isn't the case.

The irony in all this? The automotive group that owns the Ford dealer also owns the Chevy dealer where I take three of my five Chevies. I've had nothing short of exceptional service from the Chevy dealer.

Go figure. :p

Originally posted by Bob Cosby
Good point. And which folks are looking at the $52K caddy's that you are having wet dreams about in another post?

I dunno, but they seem to be selling. My Caddy dealership gets 6 a month and they are usualy gone before the next shippment. They are a large Caddy dealership, but outiside of the XLR, the CTS-V is hard to get some seat time in at my dealer.

Cool - and my point went right over your head.

Have a good evening.

posted by jg95z28
For everyone that has a positive experience with a Ford SVT dealership, I'm sure there are just as many with negative experiences. I am one of those people. After three out of three "bad experiences" with the same dealer, I finally gave up and found a privateer that has much better service and works with me to make sure I am satisfied. I had figured that a Ford SVT dealer, especially one with Rousch Super Mustangs in its showroom, would be the perfect place to take my son's supercharged Mustang GT... obviously that just isn't the case.Maybe I'm missing something, but...
a.) What does the service of a dealer servicing a non-SVT vehicle have to do with SVT, or the elevated level of service that Ford commits to SVT owners?
b.) Why would anybody rely on a dealer to service a somewhat highly modified car? I'm perhaps mistakenly drawing the conclusion that you're getting more done than a brake job and alignment...maybe I'm wrong.
c.) Why would the owner of such a vehicle expect an SVT dealer to be more well trained or experienced with an aftermarket modified vehicle than a private shop? Again...perhaps making the incorrect assumption that we're talking more than the basics.

This would be like saying SVT's service philosophy sucks because you're not happy with the the service you received on the Focus you bought from another used car lot.
In my experience, the individual dealer's customer service philosophy has more bearing on the level of quality care that customers receive than whether or not it's an SVT shop.
S.

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Suits me fine... maybe there will be less abuse of true GM enthusiasts here...

So SORRY I like GM cars more than other makes, NOT... :rolleyes:

It's fine to like GM cars more than others, but even the Ford-haters must admit that right now Ford is much farther ahead in the realm of performance vehicles than GM is (with the exception of the C6).

Add to the fact that Ford is offering quite a bit more exciting vehicles than GM, and I would tend to think GM better produce some sort of "blue devil", 5th Gen, or some kind of exciting car besides the C6 fairly soon. I can get a CTSv? Please. I'd rather not shell out $50,000+ for a modded version of the
same car my Grandma takes to church on Sundays. I'd rather get the Mercury Marauder.

People will call me a GM-hater, and that's fine. But take a look at the car in my sig, I love that car and I hate GM. I paid for my car at the dealer, spent a lot of money on aftermarket parts and even joined a GM enthusiast website. I've done quite a bit to add to the hype of GM, but I recognize that GM is not offering us the same options as it once did.

What can I say?

SVT :bow:

Hopefully GM follows suit.

Originally posted by jg95z28
For everyone that has a positive experience with a Ford SVT dealership, I'm sure there are just as many with negative experiences. I am one of those people. After three out of three "bad experiences" with the same dealer, I finally gave up and found a privateer that has much better service and works with me to make sure I am satisfied. I had figured that a Ford SVT dealer, especially one with Rousch Super Mustangs in its showroom, would be the perfect place to take my son's supercharged Mustang GT... obviously that just isn't the case.

The irony in all this? The automotive group that owns the Ford dealer also owns the Chevy dealer where I take three of my five Chevies. I've had nothing short of exceptional service from the Chevy dealer.

Go figure. :p

Hmmm, if I'm not mistaken, if a Ford SVT dealer is not doing their job, or their service on the SVT end is very poor, you could complain to SVT directly and they could opt to pull their liscense as a SVT dealership. It's a priveledge to be a SVT dealer, not a right. Just like in sucky NJ, its a priveledge to drive, not a right, bastards...

Originally posted by Pentatonic
I'd rather not shell out $50,000+ for a modded version of the
same car my Grandma takes to church on Sundays. I'd rather get the Mercury Marauder.
Now that is funny. I haven't seen too many old people in CTS's, but it looks like you have to show your ARP membership to buy a Grand Marquis or Crown Victoria.

Originally posted by Snorman
Maybe I'm missing something, but...
a.) What does the service of a dealer servicing a non-SVT vehicle have to do with SVT, or the elevated level of service that Ford commits to SVT owners?
b.) Why would anybody rely on a dealer to service a somewhat highly modified car? I'm perhaps mistakenly drawing the conclusion that you're getting more done than a brake job and alignment...maybe I'm wrong.
c.) Why would the owner of such a vehicle expect an SVT dealer to be more well trained or experienced with an aftermarket modified vehicle than a private shop? Again...perhaps making the incorrect assumption that we're talking more than the basics.

This would be like saying SVT's service philosophy sucks because you're not happy with the the service you received on the Focus you bought from another used car lot.
In my experience, the individual dealer's customer service philosophy has more bearing on the level of quality care that customers receive than whether or not it's an SVT shop.
S. In all three case, my car came back with more things wrong than when it entered the shop, and in one case the paint on the trunk was damaged and they tried to claim that it came in that way. The shop manager even went through this BS demonstration of why it happened, which he claimed was because the trunk lid was replaced at one time and it was a crappy paint job. That's funny because he missed the OEM VIN sticker that still resides on the inside of the trunk lid.

Also in two of the three cases, I had to diagnose what the problem most likely was for them. My point was that with a dealer that is given the privledge of being an SVT dealer, one would expect their customer service and quality of repair service to be top notch. This isn't the case with this dealer. In fact it was other local SVT and Mustang owners that directed me to the place where I now get my Mustang serviced because they had similar problems with this dealer. As far as servicing modified vehicles, the guy sells supercharged Rousch Mustangs, therefore, I assumed he could handle a 96 GT with a Vortech and modified exhaust. If he can't, then what does he do for the Rousches he sells... farm them out to other shops???

I'm not knocking Ford's or all Ford dealers. Just this one. :rolleyes:

So for us 40hr a week working schmucks, we can go down to SVT and hop in a Cobra or Lightning or over to GMPD and test out a Redline Ion or Cobalt SS.

This brings up a point I made many moons ago. GM has left us working guys hanging out to dry. It's real nifty to point to $40K C5's, $52K CTSv's, $52K C5 Z06s. Even the GTO until recently was really a $38- $40K car with all the gouging going on. But most guys are never gonna really own one. Not any time soon. SVT is right there making a $30K asphalt burning Cobra and Lightning that I could go out and buy easily tomorrow. They're doing what I want out of a performance division. DCX is doing the same thing with the 300C and Magnum. The SRT-10 is expensive but it came out suprisingly cheaper than expectations. GM would've charged $60K for that truck and you know it. The SRT-4 is the $20K performance car. The new stang GT is cheap for the high performance.

Your anti-GM bias shows in sharp relief here. At least I've stated my preferences explicitly :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, your numbers are off. Go to edmunds.com when you are ready for a dose of reality. The wunnerful 04 Cobra? Street price $35k, ancient styling/structure, tiny back seat. The Lightning? $32k, also ancient, ZERO back seat. For $32k you can instead get a a fresh, roomy 350hp GTO. How is that so different? A working schmuck as you mentioned is likely to have a kid or two... where do you suppose they should be stashed - in the tiny Mustang back seat, or the truck bed of the L? Don't even get me started on the excellent performance value offered by the Pontiac CompG GTP, a product for which there is NO Ford counterpart with similar features and street price, or the the upcoming TrailBlazer SS...

And as for the new DAIMLERCX hemi cars... too bad they're not up to GM's quality standards:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/business-3/108853014750700.xml

GM was the only one of the domestic automakers to score better than the industry average of 269 problems per 100 vehicles, but Ford and DaimlerChrysler AG made significant headway.

It's fine to like GM cars more than others, but even the Ford-haters must admit that right now Ford is much farther ahead in the realm of performance vehicles than GM is (with the exception of the C6).

I'm not a Ford-hater, but I'd be hard-pressed to "admit" the above, since it is not valid. Why should I make an exception for the C6, or for that matter any year Corvette? In fact (aside from the quirky Cobra R) the Ford GT is the first Ford car in many years that can hang with the top production Vette.

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
I'm not a Ford-hater, but I'd be hard-pressed to "admit" the above, since it is not valid. Why should I make an exception for the C6, or for that matter any year Corvette? In fact (aside from the quirky Cobra R) the Ford GT is the first Ford car in many years that can hang with the top production Vette.

Agreed. Why must I praise Ford for making a Mustang GT have as much hp as the Camaro did back in 98? There is nothing new that this Mustang is bringing to the table. The Ford GT, yeah but no one here has the cash, at least I think, to touch one.
Why do I have to praise Ford for making a car that they would be stupid to let go? Do you praise GM for keeping the Corvette?
How about praise GM for bringing the GTO from one side of the world to the other?
How about praise GM for getting into the luxury sports car segment and hit it hard?
How about praise GM for getting into the sport compact market with factory installed power adders?
How about praise GM for releasing a crap load of cars that at this point, none of the other 2 have matched yet?

Agreed. Why must I praise Ford for making a Mustang GT have as much hp as the Camaro did back in 98? There is nothing new that this Mustang is bringing to the table. The Ford GT, yeah but no one here has the cash, at least I think, to touch one.
Why do I have to praise Ford for making a car that they would be stupid to let go? Do you praise GM for keeping the Corvette?
How about praise GM for bringing the GTO from one side of the world to the other?
How about praise GM for getting into the luxury sports car segment and hit it hard?
How about praise GM for getting into the sport compact market with factory installed power adders?
How about praise GM for releasing a crap load of cars that at this point, none of the other 2 have matched yet?

aMEN to that! An example - the Saturn Vue Redline. Along with the upcoming TrailBlazer SS, it's giving GM nearly exclusive rights to the performance SUV niche. But that's nothing new... anyone remember the Typhoon...

How does Ford have more performance and more "exciting" vehicles over GM? They have the Mustang and Lighting and that is it. What else does Ford Have?

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
How does Ford have more performance and more "exciting" vehicles over GM? They have the Mustang and Lighting and that is it. What else does Ford Have?

By exciting cars, i think they mean cars "they'd" be personally interested in. I don't think they mean sheer numbers if i understood correct, because GM's got the sheer numbers and size. For some here, the only GM car they express interest in is the Camaro, and we won't see that for atleast another 2 more years. I don't know. So maybe they meant "performance cars they'd actually want to buy" or something along those lines.

GM does have a lot to offer, and they'll be rolling off more products in the years to come. Same with Ford and DC.

Btw: Ford Motor Co has more than just lightning, GT, and Mustang;). Seems you're only concentrating on the Ford brand alone, which wouldn't compare evenly with GM as a corporation and as a whole. In the end, niether is short in options.

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
Now that is funny. I haven't seen too many old people in CTS's, but it looks like you have to show your ARP membership to buy a Grand Marquis or Crown Victoria.

There are a ton of old people around here in CTS's, just like there are a ton of old people who drive in Grand Marquis. But considering a modified old man's car, I'd take the Mercury Marauder any day. Why? The Marauder looks cooler. It doesn't look like some sort of giant elongated diamond with 4 doors. A diamond is a symbol of high society, but driving around in the automotive equivalent of a diamond doesn't quite have the same cultural significance.

I'd say that all 3 car companies are gonna be looking good in 2 years or so.

Originally posted by Pentatonic
There are a ton of old people around here in CTS's, just like there are a ton of old people who drive in Grand Marquis. But considering a modified old man's car, I'd take the Mercury Marauder any day. Why? The Marauder looks cooler. It doesn't look like some sort of giant elongated diamond with 4 doors. A diamond is a symbol of high society, but driving around in the automotive equivalent of a diamond doesn't quite have the same cultural significance.


BWAAHAHAHAHAH!!

Your telling me you rather take the hunk of crap, 35 year old chassis'ed Marauder with a underpowered engine and power-zapping trans over a true luxury sports sedan? And people call me biased!! HA!

I have yet to see an old person drive or even like the new CTS design, but I see more people in there mid to late 30's to 50's driving them.

To each his own I guess, but if you were giving me a free choice between a Marauder and a CTS-V, I would consider myself brain-dead to pick the Marauder. For pure sport driving there is no decision to make. 400 HP with a suspension tuned at Nurburing vs. 300 HP and a suspension tuned at a marshmellow factory. :D

Consider that the car mags didn't even prefer the Marauder to the old B-body Impala SS from 8 years ago....:o

I forget the exact figure, but since CTS's debut, Cadillac's average buyer age dropped significantly...

Ya, there are some old folks driving CTS's, but I see old folks driving Vibe's, Grand Ams, Camaros, Corvettes, BMW's, just about anything...


On the other hand, you don't see too many young people driving around in Grand Marquis'...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I forget the exact figure, but since CTS's debut, Cadillac's average buyer age dropped significantly...

Ya, there are some old folks driving CTS's, but I see old folks driving Vibe's, Grand Ams, Camaros, Corvettes, BMW's, just about anything...


On the other hand, you don't see too many young people driving around in Grand Marquis'...

There was a GREAT article in Mustang Times (rag of the MCA) by the president of the MCA. In that article, he cited several sources that showed recent trends in Muscle/ponycar buyers. Unlike before, age is HUGE with this market now.

I'd have to go home and scan the article (acces is for members only at website), but from a jagged memory, something like 60% of the muscular ponycars (like Mustang GT's, Mach 1, Cobras, and the like) are bought by folks over 55! The guy goes through the generations and the appeal for each, and how their buying habbits play into the economics of car buying.

As it turns out, baby-boomers drove the intial musclecar and ponycar markets in the sixties - they were in their 20's, had a little money, economy was alive, and the cars were right. Millions of Mustangs, Cougars, Camaros, Firebirds, Cudas, and the like were sold in just a few years. The next generation of kids (the Gen X crowd) was born during this same musclecar era. 18-22 years later, these kids do it again, Mustang 5.0's, Irocs, Daytonas, etc. Ironically, their moms and dads that owned an original '66 Mustang decided to not only show their '66, but buy a new one to tool around in (since the '66 is concours restored now) - adding even more demand in the segment. We are now seeing TRIPLE generation influx into the SAME MARKET. The internet generation is now at driving/wage-earning age and are buying V6 Mustangs and GT's, their mom and dad are restoring the '86 Fox body 5.0 for show duty, and buying a new Mach 1 to drive, and even grandma and grandpa are retiring the '66 from show duty and buying Mach 1's and Bullitt cars. It does make sense.

I'll say this much, at the last show I was in, EVERYONE around my car was in their 50s to mid 70's, and I was surrounded by a '96 mystic Cobra, a 2004 Mach 1, a '93 teal Cobra, and a '68 Convertible. I see FAR more gray-heads driving mach 1s and Cobras than I would have ever thought. But heck, I hope I am one of those "cool old farts" too in a few more decades!:thumb:

My point is, I think OEM's need to keep the basic cars appealing to everyone from 16 up, but have no problem including the more affluential and senior buyers in the top-line models like Cobras or (new) Z/28s that may demand a buyers premium ($35k or up).
Just don't start [i]gouging[i/] because you think they are all old and wealthy... VALUE is still a priority to any ponycar. Z06, Viper, or GT - well the sky's the limit there.

Around here, I see more 40-somethings in CTS, LS, and 300 cars, and see more gray-heads in Mustangs and Camaros. a "second" mid-life crisis I suppose!

Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Your anti-GM bias shows in sharp relief here. At least I've stated my preferences explicitly :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, your numbers are off. Go to edmunds.com when you are ready for a dose of reality. The wunnerful 04 Cobra? Street price $35k, ancient styling/structure, tiny back seat. The Lightning? $32k, also ancient, ZERO back seat. For $32k you can instead get a a fresh, roomy 350hp GTO. How is that so different? A working schmuck as you mentioned is likely to have a kid or two... where do you suppose they should be stashed - in the tiny Mustang back seat, or the truck bed of the L? Don't even get me started on the excellent performance value offered by the Pontiac CompG GTP, a product for which there is NO Ford counterpart with similar features and street price, or the the upcoming TrailBlazer SS...

And as for the new DAIMLERCX hemi cars... too bad they're not up to GM's quality standards:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/business-3/108853014750700.xml


Well you're right on the prices. The '04 is $34300 with rebate and Lightning is $32K. But we all know the GTO was until a month or 2 ago a $38K car. So yes today, the GTO is an affordable option. With no trunk. Small back seats or no usable trunk is a wash in my book. The Cobra will smoke the GTO six ways to Sunday for about the same price. And of course, you conveniently leave out the '05 stang GT, which is going to outrun a GTO with no compromises in utility or chassis refinement for about $7K less.

PLEASE stop with the 3800 FWD stuff as a viable performance option. It's not. I don't care whether Ford ever has an answer to the question that no one is asking.

Trailblazer SS .... Hmmm what's that gonna be? Based on the Silverado SS experience I would say a stock 5.3 with striping package. MEANWHILE, Ford is mulling a SC Expedition with the current Lightning motor.

As far as the DC quality, it's better to get the car out there and steal the market and worry about the loose ends afterwards. GM or Ford have no answer for the 300C and Magnum. This is why I never buy first year models anyway.

Ummm....I like the new 2005 Mustang GT, but its going to have its hands full with the 2004 350 HP GTO, to say nothing of the 2005 400 HP GTO.

Can't say anything for sure, as the 05 GT isn't here yet, nor is the 05 GTO....but I wouldn't be making the sort of statements in your post.

Originally posted by Bob Cosby
Ummm....I like the new 2005 Mustang GT, but its going to have its hands full with the 2004 350 HP GTO, to say nothing of the 2005 400 HP GTO.

Can't say anything for sure, as the 05 GT isn't here yet, nor is the 05 GTO....but I wouldn't be making the sort of statements in your post.


Well of course I'm counting the chickens based on "reports" heard around the web that the 300hp is grossly underrated and driving impressions by testers who say it pulls at least as hard as the current Mach1.

If the GT comes in at only 300hp and is modestly faster than the current GT, well then there's going to be a boatload of ex-Ford fans looking for something else.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Well of course I'm counting the chickens based on "reports" heard around the web that the 300hp is grossly underrated and driving impressions by testers who say it pulls at least as hard as the current Mach1.

If the GT comes in at only 300hp and is modestly faster than the current GT, well then there's going to be a boatload of ex-Ford fans looking for something else.

Isn't the current Mach 1 rated at 305hp? So it stands to reason that it would pull about as hard as the Mach 1

Originally posted by MunchE
Isn't the current Mach 1 rated at 305hp? So it stands to reason that it would pull about as hard as the Mach 1


Which is about 20hp underrated. They dyno from 270-280 at the rear wheels which figures out to about 320-330 flywheel. All is well and good if Ford continues its latest run of underrating hp in the Cobra, Lightning, and Mach1.

Supposedly, '05 mules are dynoing ~290rwhp at Roush and such. :eek:

Originally posted by hp_nut
Which is about 20hp underrated. They dyno from 270-280 at the rear wheels which figures out to about 320-330 flywheel. All is well and good if Ford continues its latest run of underrating hp in the Cobra, Lightning, and Mach1.

Supposedly, '05 mules are dynoing ~290rwhp at Roush and such. :eek:

Sounds reasonable, Ford has been underrating their higher hp cars a lot, especially since that whole 99 Cobra scandal. Plus, look at how much good press GM got for the underrated LS1s