Cars full second slower . . .need help

I need help , any ideas here . Im over a full second slower and my mph is down 4 - 5 on avarage. Im now trapping 103 . It was a ****ing embarassment at the track.

Top end feels flat . . .I guess Ill autotap it tomorow . . ..very disapointed :(

This years mods were the cam , valvetrain , headers and ewp. Wheres all my power gone ??

Sounds like you need a ford :P

It was a good night though

are times were the same!

WTF?!

the drive home was dope :bow:

I had traction control on after I shut it off too. Maybe that is why I got such a good launch when that mustang was around

i fxckin smoked that stang!

that was soooo much fun on the way home !! John man your car is dope !!

. . . .Im off to atotap my car . . . i ll never be able to sleep untill I find out whats going on :cry:

That sucks to hear Dave. I'm sure it's a tuning issue.

My car is really starting to come alive after all my header leaks are finally fixed. I dragged a 99-up vert with the typical flowmaster mod in Abby tonite. I got off the line with a nice bog and watched him gun it. I thought "why not" and realed him in sooo bad by third gear he was waay back. Lunch meat. Felt good because he chased me down and went first:D

have you tuned it for the new cam yet? thats prolly where your power went.

nice kill zedzag:)

I hope its just something dumb . . . I just tapped 3.96 degrese of knock in every gear 1 - 4 . It doesnt change from 3.96 degrese until i switch gears . . . . I wondr how much thats killing . Cant be real knock as its always 3.96 ?? :confused:

Efilive puts wot air fuel ratio at 11.7 at wot steady . . . I dont know how accurate that is. Timing drops to between 15 and 16 degrese wot.

I had about 12 trouble codes ranging from random misfires to knock sensor out of range and all the o2's out of range . . . Ill see if I can findm i saved em to clipboard but have no idea where that is. After i deleted them so far the light stayed off.

aww man no good thats crap....good luck wiht that

I pissed cause i got a ticket pulling out of the willowbrook mall parking lot tonight, for running a stop sign that i didnt even know was there. i thought there was just a yeild but i yeilded in front of to bike cops. he was a dick also

WHAT? dan thats bull**** man..bunch of clowns:mad: cra looks and sounds great btw

Damn, you car is a wreck. Sad thing is, even when it is running like it is, it is even with mine.

Mods, mods, and more mods.

I was good meeting you guys, have to do it again.

Maybe a tune will straighten it all out, the car could just be confused.

I was good meeting you guys, have to do it again.


Dude cruising back was awsome . . .your car is dead sexy !! It ripped my guts out not racing from those two lights :p !! I cant wait to hear chiss's play by play from the towtruck :D

Craig man did you come to the track ?? We saw perry and johnny there . . .

Originally posted by StreamlineZ28
I pissed cause i got a ticket pulling out of the willowbrook mall parking lot tonight, for running a stop sign that i didnt even know was there. i thought there was just a yeild but i yeilded in front of to bike cops. he was a dick also

ouch. .. how much $$ was it for ? how did two bike cops manage to stop you ?? You suppost to take off and clam they looked like crazies . . . :p

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch
I hope its just something dumb . . . I just tapped 3.96 degrese of knock in every gear 1 - 4 . It doesnt change from 3.96 degrese until i switch gears . . . . I wondr how much thats killing . Cant be real knock as its always 3.96 ?? :confused:

Efilive puts wot air fuel ratio at 11.7 at wot steady . . . I dont know how accurate that is. Timing drops to between 15 and 16 degrese wot.

I had about 12 trouble codes ranging from random misfires to knock sensor out of range and all the o2's out of range . . . Ill see if I can findm i saved em to clipboard but have no idea where that is. After i deleted them so far the light stayed off.

Ignore the air fuel that EFILive reports. That is just a target air fuel and has no relation to what your true AFR is.

also 15* timing is WAY too low. Without nitrous or FI you want to be around 28* total timing from 3k rpm on up on an LS1. Some guys get best results at 30* with a cam.

Were you engine trouble codes curren or historical? You might need to clear em out and see which ones come back.

They were historical , I saved them to a "clip board" in efilive before i deleted them but cant find that folder. There was ALOT but probably some or most were caused with the cam first installed.

Is there anyway I can get a decent air fuel reading off efilive ?? O2's voltage??

Also on my virtual dash board thing ( not the graph but the one that looks like a bunch of guages ) I noticed wot timing at around 12 degrese WOT wtf ?? How much power do you think having no timing is eating up ??

for N/A, I'd want to see stock O2's reading 880-910mv. That will ge tyou in the ballpark, but the only way to be sure is with a wideband of course. I have found that my O2's correlate fairly well to my wideband readings, but every set of O2's will read a bit differently for a given AFR.

As for your timing, the further you are from optimal, the more power you lose. For instance, if you drop timing 2* from optimal, you might only lose 1 hp. But if yo are already 10* from optimal and drop 2* more, you might lose 3 hp.

If you are really 18* away from optimal, I could see that costing you as much as 40 hp on the big end. Your air fuel readings might also be skewed by the timing being so far off.

What were your intake air temps right before you ran at the track? I bet they were ridiculously high, pulling 3* of timing right there (this wont show up as knock retard)

LS1's are Slow :p

Did any of you guys break the 14's :death: :Owned:

Perry's slow LS1 did a best of 13.5.....although some guy in a blue C5 there scanned Perry's car with that Predator thing. It showed that his car is adding 19% more fuel - long term....I guess the car is trying to adjust to the headers :confused:

Anyways you guys should do a GP on LS1 edit......cause when my car is back on the road in 2 weeks I am going to blow you all away :cool:

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch
Dude cruising back was awsome . . .your car is dead sexy !! It ripped my guts out not racing from those two lights :p !! I cant wait to hear chiss's play by play from the towtruck :D

Craig man did you come to the track ?? We saw perry and johnny there . . .


Yah, not racing sucked, but that is the only town I ever got a ticket in while living in Van. (I got two and never lived there). We did have a pretty good one where all three lined up though....I got out of the hole first :) and I didn't even see the other mustang.

I have to cut out that piece of carpet too, getting stuck at WOT in that car is not good, that is why my brakes were smoking. I had to brake while at WOT in 6th.

Thanks about the car, I still say yours looks better in the inside by a mile though, even outside, it just looks damn fast.

New codes . . . this may shed some light ;

these are from this morning to and from the bank so there current .

RED- P0327 Knock sensor 1 circut low
YELLOW- PO135 02 sensor heater circut
YELLOW- 02 sensor bank 2
YELLOW - PO300 random misfires
YELLOW - PO327 knock sensor circut one low
RED- PO135 02 bank 1
RED- P0155 02 bank 2
RED - PO300 random missfires
RED - PO327 knock sensor circut low


I hear when the knock sensors are unpluged you get a constant 4 degrese of retard . . . where are these little buggers maybe i unplugged em :confused:

I believe your knock sensors are on the top of the block under the intake manifold - you might want to try replacing them while you are in there.

JD you are correct, positive LTrims are normal after a header install. +19 at WOT indicates a VERY rich condition - you should be seeing zero'd LTrims for optimal power.

If those codes are all new.... damn that sucks! The only code I ever get is a random misfire, and thats due to my 228/228 cam barely idling.

Forget LS1 Edit, HPTuners is where it's at :). I'm hoping EFILive comes out with there tuning software soon to osince I already have their scan tool and expect a nice discount on their tuning product.

After the engine cools Im going to look around for anything unplugged . . . .both o2's looked ****ed too whats up with that ??

Originally posted by John1975

I was good meeting you guys, have to do it again.

Next time the car will be running
Originally posted by Amit

the drive home was dope :bow:
Shuttup:mad: Athough I did get a good view of the flyby from the tow truck.

Amit you car is too quiet

your tow truck was even quieter.
:Owned:

Ok after alot of reading I think the problems with the o2's are directly related to a problem further up stream . My coill packs are on the wrong ****ing side so Ill loook into that right now :o

Originally posted by Amit
your tow truck was even quieter.
:Owned:

:Owned:
:Owned:
:Owned:
:Owned:
:Owned:
:Owned:
:Owned:

Originally posted by Amit
your tow truck was even quieter.
:Owned:

:bow: SWEET :bow:

ya dave me and the girl showed up for a bit but i had to ead back home after being there only for like 45 min...stupid sister was hammered out in surrey somewhere and i had to pick her up lol..

should have sent me to go pick her up ;)

ha ha ha i'll keep that in mind man....i was chaoked never got to see you guys...you figureout whats wrong with the bird yet?

Some of the guys on ls1tech think its a wiring problem because of how many sensors are all ****ed up at once . Everything looks tight and I know its dod to dot . . . maybe its the ewp ground or power wire .

Coil packs are good

Exhaust is tight

O2's all look good

Process of illimination I guess . . . :cry:

Originally posted by Amit
your tow truck was even quieter.
:Owned:
I think I'll go cry now:cry: :cry: :cry: :dead:

Originally posted by StreamlineZ28
I pissed cause i got a ticket pulling out of the willowbrook mall parking lot tonight. he was a dick also

I felt so bad when I saw the cops come after you. I had just enough time to slow down and watch them pull you over. That sucks dude, just dispute it and hope the cop doesnt show. Sorry man.

Twitch, your timing is way too low. Your KR is probably killing 10-15 horses, in my opinion. Not too severe, but not too good either. (Note: I just read Craig's thread and I agree - definitely likes more timing with a cam, especially one in the 220-224 range like yours). Your timing maybe be misisng becuz of the KR though.

If you have any atap readings, I'll be glad to look at them. Any help I can offer.

Also, can I race you while you suck like this???? :)

So sorry I missed that night - work was too long for me on friday and I didn't get home till 9.

What are your O2 readings? How do the O2s look physically? Misfires could be the cam. The DTCs for the O2s may just be the fact that they are now further from the heads so aren't heating as fast and not switching properly. Please post all the details you can. If you want, we can meet up sometime too.

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
Twitch, your timing is way too low. Your KR is probably killing 10-15 horses,

i think its killing much more power then this..

we raced from a roll and i walked him.

:D

I have much bigger problems than the KR .

I think i damaged the knock sensor wire harness when I was prying at that metal bracket to get the vent tube back in the valve cover. At the time I didnt see it there . . . . which makes sence . When you lose a knock sensor the pcm defaults 4 degrese of retard.

My o2's are up to 14 points different from bank to bank . . . on average about 9 points different. With these readings I dont see how the pcm can tune itself. Im going to pull them and check em tomorrow.

Timing can go from 15 degrees at light throttle cruise to 40 degrees for no real reason . . . no idea on this one.

The cars getting worse, im not driving it again until its fixed. I betcha its dropped another **** load of power. When it was first on the road the top end felt awsome . . . . now its flat like parris hilton . . . . now I dont care about hp as much as making sure I dont fry my motor :cry:

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
Twitch, your timing is way too low. Your KR is probably killing 10-15 horses, in my opinion. Not too severe, but not too good either. (Note: I just read Craig's thread and I agree - definitely likes more timing with a cam, especially one in the 220-224 range like yours). Your timing maybe be misisng becuz of the KR though.

If you have any atap readings, I'll be glad to look at them. Any help I can offer.

Also, can I race you while you suck like this???? :)

So sorry I missed that night - work was too long for me on friday and I didn't get home till 9.

What are your O2 readings? How do the O2s look physically? Misfires could be the cam. The DTCs for the O2s may just be the fact that they are now further from the heads so aren't heating as fast and not switching properly. Please post all the details you can. If you want, we can meet up sometime too.



Everyone wants to race me while its all gimped !! :D

Yeah man can I email you the file's. I have a good one in V6 just cruising around and one in v5 where I go wot through 1 - 4 . I would love to tap your brain on this one . :bow:

Originally posted by Draco
for N/A, I'd want to see stock O2's reading 880-910mv. That will ge tyou in the ballpark, but the only way to be sure is with a wideband of course. I have found that my O2's correlate fairly well to my wideband readings, but every set of O2's will read a bit differently for a given AFR.

As for your timing, the further you are from optimal, the more power you lose. For instance, if you drop timing 2* from optimal, you might only lose 1 hp. But if yo are already 10* from optimal and drop 2* more, you might lose 3 hp.

If you are really 18* away from optimal, I could see that costing you as much as 40 hp on the big end. Your air fuel readings might also be skewed by the timing being so far off.

What were your intake air temps right before you ran at the track? I bet they were ridiculously high, pulling 3* of timing right there (this wont show up as knock retard)

I completely missed this post . The car felt hot and flat at the track but I didnt tap it while I was there. I have the dummie temp guage that always reads 100 degrees unless its really cold or really hot .

Like I say it showed as low as 12 degrees of timing at some points wot which is horrible.

Is it possible I partialy fried my pcm when I installed my ewp and saudered the ignition wire in the fuse box ??

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch
Is it possible I partialy fried my pcm when I installed my ewp and saudered the ignition wire in the fuse box ??

I dont think so Dave. I would pull the intake and replace or somehow verify the knock sensors are working properly. If one of those two sensors is fu*ked, Im sure that would put your timing way off.

Good luck man, I cant imagine the frustration your going through.

JD you are correct, positive LTrims are normal after a header install. +19 at WOT indicates a VERY rich condition - you should be seeing zero'd LTrims for optimal power.


Im getting conflicting info . . . .(+) numbers are rich and (-) are lean ?? I was told the opposite :confused:

My cars 0.0 at wot but +15 -to + 20 at cruise. . . I thought I was hella lean . Exhaust smells clean and plugs are a bit red . .. . Id be happier if it was rich . . .

Are all your fuses checking out OK? only thing I would think of that would set off that many codes is a fuse.

I checked all the engine bay fuses and there ok . . . I was screwing around in there when I wired the ewp though .

You would hard core hear a hreder leek right ?? Would tick n **** ??

Yes, you would really here a header leak, and I don't think it would cause this much of a problem.

BTW, can you send me those files again Dave? I had my virus settings too high and they stripped the attachments off... dumbass me. :cry:

I would look at the files If I had EFILive :) I guess its free for download, send them my way we'll whats in there.

Here are some screen shots . . . maybe something will stick out .

This is an open throtle run . 1- 4 from after mission ( friday night )

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/efia.jpg

Same run just highlighted a differen part of the timeline to show timing etc.

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/efib.jpg

Heres a cruise shot from sat morning to show how difference between the ltft's from bank 1 and 2. Those little buggers are almost always different

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/eficruise.jpg

What are you O2s in mV when at WOT? They should often differ between bank 1 and 2 by about 10 points, so that sounds normal. When not at WOT, you should see the O2s switch from high to low (~.1 mV then .83 mv, then .05, then .65, etc... some pattern like that where it is high-low-high).

Timing part throttle can range from 14-41, depending on the conditions. Its really the WOT we need. It has to be 24-28 or so, maybe a tad higher.

Originally posted by bunker
I would look at the files If I had EFILive :) I guess its free for download, send them my way we'll whats in there.

Awsome !! Ill email them now :bow: :bow:

Im not sure about the Mv at WOT . LTFT's went to 0.0 but does it even use those ??

I haven't used EFIlive before, so could you just explain what it is showing there? I think I know, but how do you read the axis?

Is the bottom rpm or time? And are these WOT bursts (and for how long)? Sorry, I'm just more familiar with ATAP!

On first inspection, I don't think those snap shots look bad, but I thinbk we need to see more. The O2s are switching, but the timing to low at WOT.

I forgot you had atap and sent you the efilive files last night :p

The axis , that line that goes verticaly through everything pinpoints ( freezes ) the readings and displays them in that point in time.

This run is zoomed out ( the first one ) and is gear 1 - 4 full throttle ( about 20 - 180 kmph ) to about 5700 rpm in each gear . It shows 4 degrees of knock across each gear . Because it was recorded in V5 and played back in V6 some info is missing but I was running on laptop battery and I couldnt get v6 configured that night.

The second ne is the same run just with the axis in a different place to show different readings.

The second box down on the left is the STFT's o2's .

Heres a link to the free download for anybody that wants a copy of my files.

http://efilive.com/downloads/index.html

Amit if you download this ( version 6 ) I can email you your own taps after we scan it and you can review them / save them .

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch
Heres a link to the free download for anybody that wants a copy of my files.

http://efilive.com/downloads/index.html

Amit if you download this ( version 6 ) I can email you your own taps after we scan it and you can review them / save them .

coooooool

Your O2 readings are very very messed up, especially the light blue one. I dont care if people think the stock O2s aren't readable.... I think they are really trying to tell you something here.

You should see them pegged at around .900mV. Even the yellow O2 line is reading too low and the blue one starts out way too low and then jumps up later on.

I think your timing might have been dropped to the Low Octane table due to masive knock (maybe due to running way too lean as shown by the O2s?). You should log your knock count as well to see if the sensors are getting triggered like mad like I think they might be.

Craig , im thinking lean too. . . . theres no smell . . . no soot and plugs look a little red .

What do you think its trying to tell me ?? Any guesses ?? Thats bank II passenger side correct ??

do the O2 sensor switch first... its still possible you have a bad sensor and its the easiest thing. run your tank to near empty and put some fresh 94 octane in there and see if that helps. log your knock count to see if the sensors are picking up crazy knock

Let's do those easy thigns first then go from there.

Ok kewl ,

I just pulled the pass side valve cover , plugs etc and gave it a really really close look over . . . everything looks great . The headers look tight as hell . . . . I cant see any sign of air getting in pre 02.

My passenger side header is 1/8 inch away from the k member but desnt look marked up like its been making contact. Ive had my eye on it since it was instaled but figured the motor would torque it towards the pass side right ??


Ill throw it back together and switch the o2's from side to side next . Does anybody know a way to check these with a volt meter ??

I still thing those two po327 knock sensor circut low codes are saying my knock sensors have left the building. I know i was prying back there at that huge metal clamp. . . .Can I check the wire harness with a volt meter err something ?? I may have inadvertantly (sp) put enough pressure on this little harness to seperate the wires inside. Three things are pointing me there . . It was dark and i was grumpy when I encountered that bracket and I didnt see any wires behind it , the code indicated the knock sensor is MIA and by default I now have exactly 4 degrees of knock at all times wot which is default when they are disconected. I dont think the sensors themselves are bad . . .but i dont think ill be able to log knock with any acuracy until i can determine if the harness is ****ed.

little bastard knock harness pic

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/wire.jpg[/img]

ok here is the deal. Apparently if you have bad knock sensors (throwing codes), you will be running in the low octane timing table. This is what is killing your timing.

Fix those knock sensors and see what happens!

K I just got in there and removed the wire loom from the knock harness wires. There is a noticeable kink in them so it does look like I used em to pry agaised lol

Anyways I managed to get the blue cap off and stuff the wires back into the connector quite aways and ill see how that does. . . .

I also went over the intake tract via matts advice and tightened everything up after I reinstalled the stock maf ends. If anythings helping a lean condition its those I guess . . .

Off I go to tap it again ;)

Off I go to tap it again


how is it now? any change?

Some progress . . .

-Ltrims are down closer to 0.0 and much tighter together.

-light blue ( bank 2 ) o2 STFT's are way messed still. Im still gettng the knock sensor codes and both left and right bank "02 sensors not switching" codes.

-At WOT Im getting 9.5 - 10.5 degrees of timing .


Next Im going to run my EWP through a reley off the battery instead of straight off the ignition wire and see if that cleens anything up and switch the o2's side to side.

I have a new huge atap that really shows how ****ed the 02's are reading . . . .any takers ??

Send me the atap for sure. I want something to do tonite. I'll spend some time helping, looking at your earlier files too. I just got busy yesterday.

SEND NOW!!! :)

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch

My passenger side header is 1/8 inch away from the k member but desnt look marked up like its been making contact. Ive had my eye on it since it was instaled but figured the motor would torque it towards the pass side right ??




Btw, I had to grind part of my K on the drivers side cuz it rubbed. You can't miss it if it is doing it.

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
Btw, I had to grind part of my K on the drivers side cuz it rubbed. You can't miss it if it is doing it. I agree. My headers were touchig at WOT and it felt like I had solid mounts...you could feel vibration throuout the whole car.

Kewl you just saved me some time grinding . Im definatly not smacking it if its something you can hear / feel inside the car. I just had another look at it and here isnt anr rub marks or fine scratches that would indicate contact. . . .

I just swapped the o2's from bank to bank and Ill se what that does.

ChriSS , sending now thanks man !! :bow:

Couple pics of my messed up o2's

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/techa.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/techb.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/techc.jpg

And my messed up timing

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/wot.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/wotb.jpg

those o2 shots are fine cuz at cruise or idle TPS you expect them to fluctuate from 100 to 900 like that. They wont read the same either. You can only compare O2s at WOT and see if they are close together, and even that is pushing it given their inaccuracy.

You should fix your timing issues first then worry about your air fuel. Your timing at WOT is probably ****ing up your AFR as read by the O2s anyway.

remember, your knock sensor codes are what is killing your timing by dropping you down to the low octane timing table. Fix your knock sensors and go from there.

Hey Craig,

Im working the knock sensor thing I just want to make sure Im getting 100% of the picture . . . I found this when looking into the knock sensor codes . .

In my case, the pcm was the cause of the codes, and when I logged runs, I had very low maf air flow readings which weren't making sense. Since replacing the pcm, the codes disappeared, and maf air flow is reporting normal. Also, I had a burnt pin #51 that actually fell off when I touched it.

I seem to remember Bunker mentioning the low maf readings when he looked at my taps . . . . kinda raised my interest a bit so i did some more digging and found alot more info on the pcm . . . .its easier to check so Ill poke around.

Ill proably end up ordering a new sensor from gm . . .. maybe I should try for warranty ;)

your readings do look low now that you mention it.... you didnt wreck the MAF with a big dry shot did you? :)

Not sure how that explains knock sensor codes tho...

If you need to try a new MAF i have a stock one you can try out.

Thats a thought , just how low is it reading compared to normal ?? . . . . . . I checked the pcm and it all "looks" ok ( no burnt pins like noticed by others )

Thanks Chriss I may have to take you up on that. . . . what maf are you running now ??

If the maf itself was really screwie wouldnt I see a code ?

for a cam/headers car I'd expect to see 300 grams/sec at WOT at 6k+ rpm. Thats roughly what I get on my car.

BTW your O2 and MAF grams/sec readings look pretty good on the last 2 screenshots - maybe even a bit rich runnin .900+. Your light blue O2 is reading consistently higher then the other bank... swap em around and see if that changes (or did you swap already and notice a shift?).

Fix your knock sensors/timing and you should be good to go.

I hope so Craig . . . Im hoping the top end power shows up when this is all figured out. There is ZERO power above 5500 rpm right now which is no good or a 116lsa cam . I was told she'd yank you back till 6700 ( rev limiter permiting )

You edited your post ;)

I just swapped the o2's today and havent had a chance to drop her down and check it out . . . they looked ok . . . like 02 sensors . . . . and they sound like 02 sensors when you shakem :p

K im pretty close to 300 grams here . I notice I shift really early with the way its running . This ones at about 5800 rpm's.

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a74501/maf.jpg

I have a Granatelli unit I use currently. I'll likely go back to my stock one in the future with a blower, but right now its just sitting in my cupboard.

I just read over your 1+ hour logs. I see nothing wrong with O2s. You're rich, but the exact same readings as me, and bang on for LTs in my opinion. High 11 AFR I think. Not a serious issue.

Your KR issue is interesting. I saw five WOT runs (did I miss some?), and in your first run you had 4 degrees for the short run you did - consistently. Then the next two runs there was no KR at all (well, maybe 0.6 for a split second, but thats ok). Then the last two runs, back to 4 degrees bang on and steady through the gear shift. That is weird enough to suggest a bad knock sensor, or damage to the harness. The fact that it comes and goes, and stays right on 4 degrees is very suspicious. So focus there.

Your timing was slightly better on the runs w/o KR. Actually, almost normal, starting at ~23 degrees (slightly low still), but oddly enough tapering off as the rpms climbed when no KR. I find that weird. Completely expected though is the sensors are pulling timing as the rpms climb.

I assume this is not the same tank of gas you've been using, correct? You've added 94 and made logs similar to this with a fresh take?

Can you with EFILive disable the Knock sensors when running? If the sensor is bad, you will get a beter reading this way. I know I can do it with edit, but not sure of EFI... :think:

i think the whole problem here is that its a ls1, you need to yank it for a lt1:D

I think you caught some stuff I missed . I havent seen a wot blast without the 4 degrees of knock . Where abouts was it located in the timeline. If it was early enough it may be because I deleted the codes right before I left :confused: . From what Ive come across so far, it appears when the pcm gets the knock sensor code it automaticaly defaults into the low timing tables and retards 4 degrees ( ontop of the low tables )

This is awsome news on the o2's. I looked over taps from Amits car that I had and his switch so much more "crisp" and follow a distinct pattern. My 02's look slightly drunk . . . infact the light blue one looked like it was right smashed :p

Awsome !! I never even thought of that . . . I may be able to disable the knock sensor with the bi directional controls . . . . although if the code is present it may still try to default to the low tables and 4 degrees retard ?

Thanks for looking these over . . . I really appreciate the input and the chance to bounce ideas back and forth with you guys it helps ALOT !! :bow:

I think Ill call GM tomorow and order up a new knock sensor . . . . really didnt want to pull the intake :irk:

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
I have a Granatelli unit I use currently. I'll likely go back to my stock one in the future with a blower, but right now its just sitting in my cupboard.

I just read over your 1+ hour logs. I see nothing wrong with O2s. You're rich, but the exact same readings as me, and bang on for LTs in my opinion. High 11 AFR I think. Not a serious issue.

Your KR issue is interesting. I saw five WOT runs (did I miss some?), and in your first run you had 4 degrees for the short run you did - consistently. Then the next two runs there was no KR at all (well, maybe 0.6 for a split second, but thats ok). Then the last two runs, back to 4 degrees bang on and steady through the gear shift. That is weird enough to suggest a bad knock sensor, or damage to the harness. The fact that it comes and goes, and stays right on 4 degrees is very suspicious. So focus there.

Your timing was slightly better on the runs w/o KR. Actually, almost normal, starting at ~23 degrees (slightly low still), but oddly enough tapering off as the rpms climbed when no KR. I find that weird. Completely expected though is the sensors are pulling timing as the rpms climb.

I assume this is not the same tank of gas you've been using, correct? You've added 94 and made logs similar to this with a fresh take?

Can you with EFILive disable the Knock sensors when running? If the sensor is bad, you will get a beter reading this way. I know I can do it with edit, but not sure of EFI... :think:

Originally posted by 93formula
i think the whole problem here is that its a ls1, you need to yank it for a lt1:D

Your not allowed to post anymore in my threads Roy :p

dont be mad cause its true:p

Just ordered up a couple new knock sensors from an ls1tech member . . . . pulling the intake is going to be hell.

I applied for the beta test version of EFILIVEV7 Flashscan through my company . . . . I wonder if I could completely disable the knock sensors ?? Bad idea ??

I wouldn't want to completely disable them for the long run. Only to eliminate the issue of a bad sensor, or if you havefalse KR from a header banging, etc... Interesting to note that even when my headers and y-pipe were banging in 4 places so bad it would freak the HELL out of you, I never got any knock from that.

The 2 WOT runs I saw with no KR were in the first half to middle area. I'm not at home yet, but I'll check when I get back. Its not unusual to have KR in the first run of the day, but it should dissapear after... so thats one thing I was looking for. I don't think deleting the DTCs affect the presence of the KR in those two cases... I may be wrong, but I suspect it doesn't work that way.

Did you ever solve Amit's KR issue?

I think the O2 pattern changes slightly only becuz they end up sitting 10 inches or so further back from the heads than with the stock manifolds. No biggie. :)

Btw, I did the intake manifold last year myself. Its a bee with an itch, especially at the back. Follow a guide for sure to be certain that you do not damage a sensor or wire back there becuz you have to do most of it by feel (cuz you can't see back there). It would help to have somoen help you too. Hard to wiggle out.

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
The 2 WOT runs I saw with no KR were in the first half to middle area. I'm not at home yet, but I'll check when I get back. Its not unusual to have KR in the first run of the day, but it should dissapear after... so thats one thing I was looking for. I don't think deleting the DTCs affect the presence of the KR in those two cases... I may be wrong, but I suspect it doesn't work that way.

Did you ever solve Amit's KR issue?

I think the O2 pattern changes slightly only becuz they end up sitting 10 inches or so further back from the heads than with the stock manifolds. No biggie. :)

Ah you right Chris I missed that. . . now Im confused all over again. The knock code should register 4 degrees all the time . . . not just here and there ?

Did you notice how the wiring harness for the knock sensors works when you were in there ?? I know its a two wire plug that I was messing with . . . does it split one wire into each sensor ? This is kinda pointing me back towards a short .

Originally posted by Camaro ChriSS
Btw, I did the intake manifold last year myself. Its a bee with an itch, especially at the back. Follow a guide for sure to be certain that you do not damage a sensor or wire back there becuz you have to do most of it by feel (cuz you can't see back there). It would help to have somoen help you too. Hard to wiggle out.

Hah !! I was just telling Amit what a bitch I heard this job was going to be ( ls1 to ls6 swap ) and now look . In anticipation I fabbed up some block off plates and pulled my air system today. . . . theres alot more room in there to poke around muhahaha !!

Looks like 1 wire to each knock sensor ( green is #1 P0327 )

http://ls1howto.com/howto/geniii/ls6pcv/new_cover_installed.jpg

Jeez... that's an ugly spot to put a knock sensor! :yuck:
Not that they are supposed to go bad that often though. :think:

Originally posted by Tw!tchb!tch
Looks like 1 wire to each knock sensor ( green is #1 P0327 )

http://ls1howto.com/howto/geniii/ls6pcv/new_cover_installed.jpg

Yep, those are the critters.

Hey twitchie, I wonder if your problem could be a temperature sensor? Who knows?

Now that you have switched the O2 sensor, why not run it up first and see if the problem has changed sides? Maybe it is just an O2 sensor, remember , one thing at a time.

Hey, thanks for the tool box, and it was really good meeting you.

Dude your ride is badass !! I cant wait to see you rip **** up on the weekend in that beast !! :bow:

I have a new issue . . . I was pulling the intake to get at the pos knock sensor . . . the inside of my Tb , intake etc is covered in gas . . . a good layer . Is this also caused by the piss poor timing and missfiring ?? When I took it apart and insprcted it over the winter it was dry and clean .

gas????? do you mean oil or some other sludgey/carbony deposits?

Definatly gas . . . . like dont lite a match . . .

how the hell does gas get into the tb?? does it think its a carb??:D :confused:

Thats odd. Oil I might expect in small quantities. How much is on the bottom of the intake floor? You sure it didn't get in AFTER the manifold came off? Is there a bad fuel rail? I assume you just lifted the entire fuel rail and injectors out as one whole unit and set it aside in the engine without disconnecting any fuel lines? Fuel loines ok?

This COULD possibly happen by mistake while removing the intake manifold if something happened to a fuel line...:think:

I did a ****ty job of describing it . . . its not dripping wet but "damp" in there and reeks of gas. I wasnt expecting it. Its not dripping or puddled just like it was getting fuel vapor in there err something that built up. There is now oil in the intake that wasnt there over the winter , its no longer dry. . . . Im not so worried about that its pretty comon . . . .would be nice to know why all of a sudden shes sucking it back though. . .

Im still working on the intake . . . its loose and up on "blocks" so I have access to the knock sensors without yanking it completely out or disconnecting any of the crap ot back. What a PITA job !!

The front knock sensor is all oily . . . not sitting in a puddle but slippy all over and pretty well coated. Ill check the back one too . . . . I wonder if thats gm anti corrosion protection for the rusty knock sensor tsb :rolleyes:

Ill do the tsb tests on the system / sensor / wires and replace it if I have to . . . I want it back up and running for friday :)