Best handling stock ride height set up?

I currently have Eibach "Pro Line" springs with stock shocks and swaybars and I like the way the car handles. None the less, I want to go back to a stock ride height suspension. What is the best handling combo of springs, shocks, and sway bars with a stock ride height? Ride quality is secondary, though somewhat of a consideration. The most important thing is high speed stability. I don't often drive very fast, but sometimes I do and I don't want any control issues at 150+mph!

Guys: if this has been discussed here before, please don't be too mad at me for asking again. But a search wasn't too revealing. From what I know, the 1LE components may be a good choice. But I have been unable to find out the proper part numbers (I have a '95). A lot of posts on this point to a site that has part numbers, but these are clearly inaccurate as they don't even have the right number of digits to be GM pn#. So if you have the correct numbers, please post them.

BTW: I want to be able to fit a 28" tall drag slick, that's the reason for wanting a higher ride height. But the car is mostly street driven so I don't want a true drag race type setup.

Thanks.

Rich Krause

Probably the 1LE or SLP Level 2/3 stuff I would think Rich. Gary has a nice setup on his car that is *near* stock ride height (just slightly lower) consisting of SLP/Bilstein/1LE stuff.

Let me know if you want to unload your 26" ET Streets/stock rims since you are going to the 28s. I would be interested in buying them since I just landed a 12 bolt.

Thanks, Jason

Originally posted by Jason Short
Probably the 1LE or SLP Level 2/3 stuff I would think Rich. Gary has a nice setup on his car that is *near* stock ride height (just slightly lower) consisting of SLP/Bilstein/1LE stuff.

Let me know if you want to unload your 26" ET Streets/stock rims since you are going to the 28s. I would be interested in buying them since I just landed a 12 bolt.

Thanks, Jason

Jason: the 1LE seems like a good choice, but I am having trouble finding out the (correct) part numbers. As soon as I make a definite decision I guess my 26" ET Streets will have found a good home! Maybe we can meet 1/2 way and exchange the block and wheels ;)

Rich Krause

Rich:

I have p/n 22132887 for the front 1LE spring and p/n 22132889 for the rear. The front spring p/n checks out ok on gmpartsdirect.com but it also says the rear has been replaced by p/n 10305134.

If you need any other 1LE p/n's try this site:

http://tech.firebirdv6.com/1le.html

Rich: As Jason said, I have the SLP level 1 kit.......If you want near stock height, this may be the way to go (Lowers car 3/4" over stock) and your car will handle like on rails:D . You may also want to consider talking to Sam Strano, has good info on what works WWW. Stranoparts.com I am using the level 1 kit with bigger sway bars front and rear, and I am pretty happy with the set up. My $02 Gary

Hey guys: thanks! That gives me a place to start.

Rich Krause

Depends on how radical or to what extent you want it to "handle better" Also some things that will make handle better may compramise high speed stability. A lot of neg camber for instance.
Lets say you were after the best handling possible without staying within rules of some sort.
Koni SA or revalved Bilsteins. Ground control coil overs with spring rate of your choice. 35mm sway bar. Global West upper control arms.
In the rear GC setup with a rod end PHR and LCA and Bilstein type shocks with a stock or 21mm swaybar.
About the only noticeable disadvantage to having stock ride height is the lack of neg camber. with the GW arms this is not a concern.

Originally posted by Soma07
Rich:

I have p/n 22132887 for the front 1LE spring and p/n 22132889 for the rear. The front spring p/n checks out ok on gmpartsdirect.com but it also says the rear has been replaced by p/n 10305134.

If you need any other 1LE p/n's try this site:

http://tech.firebirdv6.com/1le.html

Hey Jason: thanks, those ARE the right pn's! Is my assumption correct: the 1LE setup is stock ride height?

Rich Krause

Hey Rich, yeah the 1LE is *basically* the stock ride height. Within 1/4" if not exactly the stock height.

Sounds good on the ET's...just let me know when you are ready to unload them. Also, if you are going to be at the track this sunday, I will plan on it too since the weather is looking GREAT! High only looking like 60 degrees that do so far! If you trailer your car, I will bring the block.

THanks Rich
Jason

Rich: A worthwhile consideration would be using Hal Shocks with some stiff springs. Personally, I would have the shocks valved "harder" than they came, and would run a 5-600# linear spring over the drag springs. You can set your ride height wherever.

I plan on having mine revalved and swapping in a heavier spring sometime.


Ryan

I have owned a '98 1LE Z28, and my current 2001 Trans Am has the SLP Level 1 kit. The 1LE is superior at higher speeds, like on a road course. It rides a little stiffer than the SLP, and it is very predictable.

The SLP kit rides better, is lower, and is a little better at lower (<60 mph) quick maneuvering, like autocross. The 1LE rear springs are a little too stiff for autox, and the 1LE fronts could be a little stiffer. The SLP Bilstein shocks are too soft for real serious road racing, but are a good compromise for a street car. Either will satisfy all but the most hardcore track racer.

Thanks for all the help guys :)

Here's what I am going to try. Keep in mind my contradictory goals of combining good performance on the drag strip with good high performance street handling and high speed stability. The rear definitely needs to be softer for strip use. And I want stock ride height back as I am tired of scraping and a lowered car is difficult to load on a trailer.

stock springs
1LE sway bars and bushings front and rear
shocks: adjustable so I can tailor street v. strip use.

Are HAL the best adjustable shock for my purpose?

Rich Krause

Rich: I am very happy with my Hals. At the time, I was recommended them by many, but for what its worth Brett @ BMR told me flat out: The Hals are the best shocks out for the 4th gen F-body.

Here's my opinion: Right now I am running the front drag spring/Hal shocks, and stock springs/Hals in the rear. A stock ride setup would setting the Hals at ~7 & ~3 (front/rear), by my butt-o-meter. Since I don't see very much strip duty I wish I had went with a stiffer spring, and had the shocks valved a hair "tighter." I ride with the front set at 12 (max) and the rear @ 5 for daily use. This setup coupled with a STB puts a stock WS6 to shame. (Tested them back to back).

I'm not sure about how many options there are, but I believe there is a brand called Afco that is more tailored to drag racing, but I'm not positive! Besides that, there are the Bilsteins, but I think they are more autox oriented.

Bottom line: If I was in your shoes right now I would buy the HAls again.

HTH,
Ryan

I have a buddy with Hals on his Firehawk, and it is very fast on the road course. I don't think you would go wrong with them.

You guys came through, as usual :)

Thanks, I will buy the HAL shocks.

Rich Krause

Best handling stock height setup?
I very much like my stock springs, with Koni fronts, Bilstein rears and a 35mm front sway bar.

At least it was good enough to win the SCCA ProSolo champioship in F Stock this year (and the car finished 2nd @ solo2 Nat's too, I loaned it to a friend). :D

Nice to know stock springs aren't a huge impediment to handling. That's impressive 01 FS Z28!

Anyone care to comment on Koni vs. HAL (remembering that I am interested in the best compromise between high performance street and drag strip use)?

Rich Krause

Like I said earlier the only big disadvantage to stock ride height is lack of neg camber. If not trying to stay withing a set of rules this is no big deal. Just pick up a set of new upper arms.
Hals the best shock for a 4th gen? I VERY highly doubt it. Not only are they a very low pressure gas shock but will react to shaft movements much slower providing sloppy control characteristics. They look Jazzy and I am sure they do perform great under drag race situations. But the best. To me the best shock is what controls the spring movements the best-Koni or Bilsteins.
Plus the Hals are not what I consider an adjustable shock. An adjustable shock has the ability to change valving characteristics. The Hals dont. Both rebound AND compression are adjusted at the same time. If I wanted a drag shock that was OK for street use I might go with Hal.
I think you are putting too much into the shocks effects on drage race launches. If you think I am crazy and that it does make a difference test them yourself. IN THEORY Koni and Bilstein will hurt drag weight transfer because they will not let the front wheels un-weight themselves as much or as quickly. But they will control spring movements much better, provide a better than stock ride and provide Desireable handling characteristics.
With that said I went with revalved Bilsteins on my car. Handles great and rides pretty darn good despite telling Sam I didnt care about ride quality. Would it launch well? Nope. But it has a big heavy front sway bar stiffer than stock springs and is lowered 2" Killing anti-squat char.

Point to all this. The advantages gained by properly valved Bilsteins or Konis FAR OUTWEIGH the disadvantages.

Originally posted by lons94z
Like I said earlier the only big disadvantage to stock ride height is lack of neg camber. If not trying to stay withing a set of rules this is no big deal. Just pick up a set of new upper arms.
Hals the best shock for a 4th gen? I VERY highly doubt it. Not only are they a very low pressure gas shock but will react to shaft movements much slower providing sloppy control characteristics. They look Jazzy and I am sure they do perform great under drag race situations. But the best. To me the best shock is what controls the spring movements the best-Koni or Bilsteins.
Plus the Hals are not what I consider an adjustable shock. An adjustable shock has the ability to change valving characteristics. The Hals dont. Both rebound AND compression are adjusted at the same time. If I wanted a drag shock that was OK for street use I might go with Hal.
I think you are putting too much into the shocks effects on drage race launches. If you think I am crazy and that it does make a difference test them yourself. IN THEORY Koni and Bilstein will hurt drag weight transfer because they will not let the front wheels un-weight themselves as much or as quickly. But they will control spring movements much better, provide a better than stock ride and provide Desireable handling characteristics.
With that said I went with revalved Bilsteins on my car. Handles great and rides pretty darn good despite telling Sam I didnt care about ride quality. Would it launch well? Nope. But it has a big heavy front sway bar stiffer than stock springs and is lowered 2" Killing anti-squat char.

Point to all this. The advantages gained by properly valved Bilsteins or Konis FAR OUTWEIGH the disadvantages.

Which of these (Koni or Bilstein) are double adjustable?

Rich Krause

Rich, I am going to sell my rear Hal's if you would be interested in them. Mabye we can work something out on them and the ET's you have. The only reason I am changing them out is because I am going to get more involved in road course and will be going to a different setup. My Hal's only have ~5500 miles on them.

Jason

Chances are you and alot of people are not going to arrive at the best set-up with double adjustables. I think you need to have a very good understanding of what changes in rebound and compression will do to the balance of the car.
Most commonly used adjustable shock for F bods that is performance handling oriented is the Koni single adjustable.
Bilstein shocks are not ajustable but isnt really a concern as they must be valved to the spring.
Double adjustable is the Koni DA.
I am a fan of the Bilstein shock but for your application you may want Koni shocks for the adjustable rebound. The rebound should be the only thing that will affect your launch. Give Sam (01 FS Z/28) a call and he will set you up.

Rich: I will be upgrading my brakes weekend after next. After thinking carefully about what I wanted to do, I have decided to install the stock springs back on with the Hal shocks (removing the HAL Drag springs) since I will be removing the spindles regardless. I will let you know my opinion as soon as I get some seat time. Thought you might like to know...


Ryan

btw...thanks for the idea :)

I installed 1LE suspension and found the rear ride heigth increased by 3/4 to 1 inch:cool:

At this point I have puchased the 1LE front and rear sway bars and the 1LE springs. The only question is the shocks. The Koni double adjustable sound like the best bet. But at ~$1,300 I am not so sure.

Any further opinions? Remeber, I want to come as close to the "best of both worlds" as I can with a stock ride height. Assuming the DA Koni's are "best", what's "second best"?

Rich Krause

Originally posted by rskrause
At this point I have puchased the 1LE front and rear sway bars and the 1LE springs. The only question is the shocks. The Koni double adjustable sound like the best bet. But at ~$1,300 I am not so sure.

Any further opinions? Remeber, I want to come as close to the "best of both worlds" as I can with a stock ride height. Assuming the DA Koni's are "best", what's "second best"?



First off, Double adj. Koni's are less than $1300 a set. But you shouldn't assume that they are the "best" just because they are the most expensive. They are great shocks, but in 99% of the cases DA's are complete and utter overkill and SA's are all that are required (and plenty of shock too). They are just over $700 a set. Big difference, especially when you consider that the rebound range is the same as a DA, the bump is the same as the DA's soft setting (and bump in those is meant for a race-track, it's not meant to do much on the street, and it only makes it ride harder for no reason).

Shocks are a lot more complicated than they appear. What you would want to run depends GREATLY on what is done to the car and what you do with the car. For handling use, either Koni's or revalved Bilstein's are the what you want to stick with. Nothing else readily available compares.

I installed the sinlge Koni's per "Sam Strano". I have not been able to adjust the fronts, maybe they were installed wrong. I assume the fronts were set on soft like the rears. The overall ride is harsh but very stable on the road and
Thunderhill Raceway track.

The cheapest I have seen the DA Koni's is Tire Rack, which has them for $337 for the fronts and $280 for the rears. Total is $1,234 so they aren't quite $1,300, I'll admit. In any case, I will pay that if it's "worth it". But I really don't understand much about shocks. Do you (01 FS Z28) mean that when you adjust the SA shocks that all you are changing in rebound?

Help! I'm confused.

Rich Krause

Originally posted by rskrause
The cheapest I have seen the DA Koni's is Tire Rack, which has them for $337 for the fronts and $280 for the rears. Total is $1,234 so they aren't quite $1,300, I'll admit. In any case, I will pay that if it's "worth it". But I really don't understand much about shocks. Do you (01 FS Z28) mean that when you adjust the SA shocks that all you are changing in rebound?



I sell them for the same price FWIW.

It's not worth it, *especially* if you really don't understand much about shocks. ;) Sure some instances warranty DA's, but they are rare, and they will require a race track and high speeds. BTW, DA's aren't warrantied like SA's are. Race parts and all.....

Yes, SA's are rebound only adjustable (about 3 times the rebound vs. bump in shocks). The rebound is the critical aspect of the dampers.

Originally posted by 01 FS Z28
I sell them for the same price FWIW.

It's not worth it, *especially* if you really don't understand much about shocks. ;) Sure some instances warranty DA's, but they are rare, and they will require a race track and high speeds. BTW, DA's aren't warrantied like SA's are. Race parts and all.....

Yes, SA's are rebound only adjustable (about 3 times the rebound vs. bump in shocks). The rebound is the critical aspect of the dampers.

Sam: do you sell the SA? I would like to support a board member and am leaning in that direction. What do you think of the proposed setup (1LE springs and sway bars, Koni SA shocks) keeping mind that my goal is have a good handling stock ride height suspension?

Rich Krause

If you're going to go with Koni's, use the DA for the front, and the SA for the rear.

The front DA bump is actually useful for the car since it simulates more spring in the front. If you're willing to go 1LE soft...
The DA is bad for the back.. it is valved too stiff, well the bump at least.

Overall rebound is the important element, bump is more an adjustment for the track.. depending on the surface.

Steve

Firstly, I disagree that DA's are needed on the front, let alone a "must have". Compression damping is not the same as spring rate, further the Koni's adjsutable compression range is all mid to high piston speed. Meaning it's only useful over road imperfections, and it's only meant help.... NOT substitute as stiffer springs. More compression doesn't limit roll or dive, only slows it down. The basic mechanics of the suspension is still dictated by the springs/bars. The compression adjustment is there simply for this reason: Say you have springs you like on a track, but there is one dip or curbing that the car moves downward a little too much. A little extra compression "supports" the downward motion of the car and for that brief second could keep the car off the bumpstops. That's a DA's job vs. a SA. FWIW, notice that the idea is to support the car with a optimal spring, which is always as soft as workable. You obviously don't need a lot of bump with a really stiff spring....... Also, the bump range is many times smaller in range than the rebound range, because it take only a little to make a BIG change, and rebound it the essential key to the damper (bump is important, but let the experts mess with that).

I have DA's on my autox car, I NEVER use the bump adjuster, it simply makes the front end more prone to skittering across the surface. That's on a F-stock car with soft springs. It only gets worse with heavier springs.

If you want to run them, knock yourself out...... I'm just here telling you how a DA works and what it's for, and I wouldn't waste my money. However, I'm sure most people who sell shocks would happily put you on a set. And why not, they make more money (as I would) because they are more expensive, and they have no warranty hassles (because there isn't one). That's simply smart business. I, on the other hand, ain't always smart....:rolleyes: Just trying to be honest.

There is a local (and experienced) AutoX/Road/Open Road racer who runs singles in front, and doubles in back with coil overs. If singles were good enough for him in front (with 800# springs) they must not be that much of a compromise.

If he only has that setup by accident of good internet deals, I don't happen to know that.

FYI: The HAL 'drag' springs are rated "a little under 300#s" according to the tech at QA1. This makes it silly to replace them with the stock springs because there would be little improvement. I had thought these HAL springs were 'looser.'

However...

The brown truck man just showed up with some 600# beasts :cool:. I am throwing them on as we speak and should have a flavor of them soon.

I don't know very much about shocks/anything, but what keeps bringing me back to the HALS is that you can run a wider variety of springs to meet your needs and still get the ride height your want. Unless I'm wrong, you are limited to the 1LE/SLP stuff for a 'near-stock/stock' ride height. While this logic is probably offensive to the big dogs, my car is a street car (aka "a compromise") so I have to make due.

On the other hand...swapping out springs isn't like changing tires!

Ryan

Originally posted by 96-speed

I don't know very much about shocks/anything, but what keeps bringing me back to the HALS is that you can run a wider variety of springs to meet your needs and still get the ride height your want. Unless I'm wrong, you are limited to the 1LE/SLP stuff for a 'near-stock/stock' ride height. While this logic is probably offensive to the big dogs, my car is a street car (aka "a compromise") so I have to make due.


Well with a Ground control coilover kit + some Koni shocks you could have the same features with a better shock. Probably for about the same money too :D

Trust me. If you are after improved handling, and I think you are, get other shocks.
The Hals I am sure are OK for drag racing but you will be much happier with a Koni or Bilstein shock. And you can get a Ground Control kit and run spring rate of your choice at stock height. And with that set up you can change springs in less than five minutes. Once the assemblies are off the car.


Check out my first post.:)

Originally posted by Soma07
Well with a Ground control coilover kit + some Koni shocks you could have the same features with a better shock. Probably for about the same money too :D

Ryan = :Owned: :D

Forgot about the GC kit! :o

Well, I'm learning a lot here. Sam seems to make a lot of sense, and I will be calling him when I get around to it in a couple of days. I must say that I noticed a big improvement in stability and turn in when I switched to Eibach "Pro" springs, even with stock shocks. I'd be happy with the same handling and the stock ride height. The point of going back to stock ride height is to allow a bigger (taller) rear tire at the drag strip. It seems to me that the most practical option in stock ride height springs was the 1LE parts, which I bought. I know these won't help launching at the strip, but my car is primarily a fast street car anyway.

At this point, I still need shocks and it looks like the Koni SA are the best choice.

Rich Krause

Rich, you can run a 28" tire and still use the Eibachs......talk to Jordon about that...he does.

Jason

Originally posted by Jason Short
Rich, you can run a 28" tire and still use the Eibachs......talk to Jordon about that...he does.

Jason

Hey Jason: thanks! I will email Jordan. I really don't see how though, hmmm.............


Rich Krause