HOT POTATO THREAD! Open only if you're a grown up.

We've been kind of talking about this in a couple of threads lately. I was reminded of what a beautiful thing it was when SS and Z/28 had their own distinct personalities.....and how these distictions attracted more and more enthusiastic buyers.

Whithout getting into THE debate, and without arguing about "Top Dog" status, and specific horsepower......what key elements can Chevy use to differentate SS and Z/28 on a 5th gen?

For example:

Chrome wheels are, I believe, inappropriate for Z/28 but very appropriate for SS.

Let's hear what everyone thinks....

BUT.....

Watch yourselves.....if you have nothing constructive to contribute, please don't post.

:)

1) Make the Z-28 a coupe only option like the Z06 (and how it was originally) and offer T-tops and a Convertible on the SS.

2) Rims, trim and stripes should be different as well.

I'm all for coupe only Z/28's. Somehow Z/28 convertibles just don't seem right to me.

SS convertibles however, are a match made in heaven.

THE SS IS teh sux0r!!

just kidding. But to avoid the SS vs Z28 deal, why not talk about all the models?

As for the SS vs Z28, what if they were basicly equal, just it was more like a Odd Couple kinda thing? One is the neat freak luxury model, while the other is a rip snorting, leaving rubber everywhere kinda car. That would make for a great commercial!
I think the SS should keep going with the hood scoop and a lot more luxury items, much like the SS Silverado. I agree on the chrome rims, spinners optional :D. Things like OnStar, DVD navi, and other "luxury" items should be available.

The Z28 should have a slimmer looking appearance. No gfx, lower stance, and a minor wing in the back. I like the idea of a heat-extractor hood, its more race-ready looking to me. Have more "performance" options like larger brakes, different suspension, and maybe a little help from GMPP and a stainless cat back as a nice option?

I would also like to see a RS model with a supercharged 6 or a small V8 with DOD. If the RS gets a 5.3, the DOD will help out its milage and it will be more "fuel friendly" kind of camaro. Still offer performance, but it wont be loaded with as many items as the SS or Z28. Have the RS a more "daily" kinda of car. Things like XM radio, 6cd disk player, more gas-friendly rear end gears, traction conrol, and other things.

The Base model or SC would be a young guy or girls Camaro. Packed with a 250hp V6, have options to customize it. Start off with 16 inch wheels with an option on 17's. GFX kits and other things would be nice to offer.

I don't think a coupe only Z28 would be a good selling point in this day in age. People like to have an open cieling above them.

I still think SS should be the top dog, but should be more different from the Z28 than the 4th gen. had been. Chevrolet has SS as the top performance option of every model, why would they change with the Camaro? I think what your saying is that the SS should take the RS road and have more cosmetic options but still have a V8 and the Z28 should just be a straight racer.

With all the advancements in structural integrity, and considering Chevy alreaddy has a straight hard-top racer in the Z06, I think it would be smart to at least offer Ttops (or moon roof) on the Z28. Ttops alone counted for nearly 50% of 4th gen sales. You know a lot of the enthusiast Z28 buyers are going to want that option. If you want a hardtop, then get one, don't make others suffer without their 'verts and removable roofs ;)

Well Im only against the coupe only Z28, if I can get the same power package with an SS. Cause I want the most power, and performance, tranny/rear end thats avaliable. But god damnit I demand T-tops, I dont care about most of the other flash options, leather, onstar, etc. But I want T-tops, AC, and decent rims (like the 4th gen SS rims).

And is as stock 12 bolt too much to ask?;)

Maybe you guys need some inspiration.

Z/28:

http://www.1967z28.com/gallery/fullrace/jmoore/jmoore-main.htm

SS:

http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/67camaro.html

Originally posted by Z284ever
Maybe you guys need some inspiration.

Z/28:

http://www.1967z28.com/gallery/fullrace/jmoore/jmoore-main.htm

SS:

http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/67camaro.html You would've had to pick my two favorite Camaros of all. :lol:

Originally posted by Big Als Z
The Z28 should have a slimmer looking appearance. No gfx, lower stance, and a minor wing in the back. I like the idea of a heat-extractor hood, its more race-ready looking to me. Have more "performance" options like larger brakes, different suspension, and maybe a little help from GMPP and a stainless cat back as a nice option?
That would work for me... but make sure racing stripes are optional:alert:

Originally posted by Big Als Z


The Z28 should have a slimmer looking appearance. No gfx, lower stance, and a minor wing in the back. I like the idea of a heat-extractor hood, its more race-ready looking to me. Have more "performance" options like larger brakes, different suspension, and maybe a little help from GMPP and a stainless cat back as a nice option?



I think you're pretty close to the mark there.

Z/28 is about big brakes, apex carving suspension....and just generally a state of "tension".

SS is more about a sense of style. SS has a firm, yet boulevard ride. Plenty of power, but not edgy.

Z/28 is the former Delta Force mercenary, SS is the 007 gentleman.

I don't get why you folks keep saying that the Z should get bigger brakes? That is one option that should be standard down the line from the cheapest to the most expensive. If anything, do like the new Vette Z51 and make the same size brakes cross drilled.

I dont like the idea of cross drilled rotors. Maybe slotted with larger 3-4 pistion brakes. Have like 13 inchers stock, with 13.5 as an option with larger calipers. Brakes are very important and rounds out the total performance image of the Z28.

okay guys..here it is I have said before..

CHevy can have the SS model as thier top of the line products..it all fits into place..
base,RS,SS

now your saying where is Z28? well you know that little 1LE option you could get for racing from GM? was that not what the Z28 designation actually for, it was an option. You mark down the Z28 option and you got a stripped bad as$ version of the Camaro.

so change the 1LE option to Z28 ala the Z06 and you got your lineup still right but also offering the the best bang for the buck..

so it goes
far as price....
base
RS
Z28 <-- though second in line cus of the price, less trim more perf.
SS <-- still top dog..all the goodies but not all the performance a stripped down Z28 offers..what you lack in speed you get in style.

far as performance.
base
RS
SS
Z28

sounds about right..

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Chevrolet has SS as the top performance option of every model, why would they change with the Camaro?

Funny, I don't recall a Corvette SS ?!?! :confused:
But I do recall a Corvette Z06.
I also recall Z28's, Z24's, Z71's and oodles of other significant designations other than SS.

OK back to the main topic... I know it takes more development money, but it would sure be sweet to have a "new" version of the 302 available for Z/28 units. One that is specially packaged for light weight, high RPM, and easy tinkering/maintenance (at least compared to the regular electronic nightmares we have today).

Outside of the suspension mods, those special 302's are what really set the Z/28 and Boss 302 apart from any other cars in the world - and those engines are still the "heartbeat" of the lengends IMO.

I think offering upgraded brakes and suspension is almost a must for the car to be taken seriously and sell at expected levels (be they small or not), but I also think that many who buy the car will intend to race it, and if they do they will upgrade to aftermarket equipment anyways. So give an upgraded offering, but more importantly make the platform easily adaptable to Baer and Brembo type equipment - then you can't lose!
(and yes, I really do think folks will mod the cars... KNOWING the Cobra R would be a collectible likely to break $100k in the future, just look at how many guys popped $55k for a new one, and took it straight to a race shop to have it "tweaked". Everything from brakes, shocks, springs, to paint, decals, and aftermarket roll cages welded in. Would I do that? - NO. Some others - apparently.)

Originally posted by AdioSS
I don't get why you folks keep saying that the Z should get bigger brakes? That is one option that should be standard down the line from the cheapest to the most expensive. If anything, do like the new Vette Z51 and make the same size brakes cross drilled.

Anyway you look at it, the 400+ hp version will need better brakes than the 240 hp version.

Think about the CTS. Less expensive Delco on the base models, Brembo on the CTSv. The CTSv needs those Brembos, but they would be a needless expense on the other models.

If I was in marketing, here's how I'd seperate them:

I'd have the Z28 (without the slash please) be the 'racer' of the family. This would be what was included in the old 1LE, and then some. I'd purposely make these the low option cars, or 'readily ordered' cars.

The new Z28 to me would mirror what the old Mustang 5.0 and formula were, basic lighter weight versions of the top models. The Z28 would be targeted at autocrossers and raod racers, BUT still be very streetable (let's face it, there's a fair amount of posers out there that we should be very willing to take money from).

Coupe only? I could live with that. The covertable would them make much more sense on the V6 ans SS. I thik both V8 cars hould have the biggest brakes available, butthe differences should be the adjustable shocks, bigger bars, a strut tower barace, and stronger bushings in the Z28.

And seats that will accept a racing harness.

I wouldn't mind a ground effects option that's done right.

Originally posted by Z284ever
The CTSv needs those Brembos, but they would be a needless expense on the other models.

Exactly right.

Why pay 5x as much for high-temp brake fluid if you NEVER heat your brakes to the point of needing it?

Why pay 3x as much for exotic pads?

Why pay 5x as much for multi-piston calipers? Rotors? etc...

The whole brakes/suspension thing is DIRECTLY related to the use of the car. For everyday driving, the requirements are FAR less demanding, so "good" but economically priced equipment suffices. And as far as suspension goes, not even the most hardcore enthusiast will want a rock-hard ride on the pot-hole ridden roads of Anytown USA on a daily basis. It would be like the most inhumane kidneystone treatment imagineable. But that unforgiving suspension set-up is what you need to be aggressive on a road course.

But for a dedicated track car that sees occasional street duty, the circumstances are far different. That's where a Z/28 would set itself apart from the average street car - SS or otherwise. This car should be available for the guy who wants to do lots of track duty on the weekends, and maybe drive the car to/from the track - NOT as a daily work-ride/grocery-getter. Sure, you're going to pay the premium price for the rarity and low volume, but I really think the market is out here for justsuch a unit.

We always come to the same general conclusion on this topic. The SS being the "top dog" Camaro is evidently the way Chevrolet wants to go w/ most vehicles in their line, and thats fine. But the RPO Z28 we're talking about (all the over the top performance and handling stuff) as a limited production option package (ala Z06) is the way to go. I say limited because I think if they build the Z28 the way WE want it, they won't sell a whole lot to Joe Public, same as the 1LE's didn't. But thats fine, so long as GM can make it financially feasable considering the small build numbers.

So lets keep the lineup like has been posted, base, RS, SS...all in a nice 21st century package, SS can have niceties like DVD NAV, heated/cooled seats, ect if they deem a market is there for it, along w/ a pretty stout performance package. But RPO Z28 can have all the stuff thats basically aftermarket purchases now. Whether the RPO should include EVERTHING in one package, or have a set of upgrades along w/ other optional upgrades (like the SLP SS option list that you only could get if you were getting the SS, like the power package, Bilstein suspension, ect), I don't know.

So MY lineup would be base, RS, SS....w/ a Z28 option on the RS that would turn it into a ZL1 Camaro type car, hopefully for less than what the ZL1 cost :D .

I don't think you can build from the factory a car for occasional street duty. I think everything will have to be developed as a daily driver. But that doesn't mean performance will suffer.

I think the Z06 makes a great cse for ultimate performance and everyday driveability.

Z28 = the Camaro version of the Z06.

Price it like a full load convertible but provide real performance goodies instead.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
And seats that will accept a racing harness.

and provide real lateral support.

I'd like to see the price below a fully loaded convertable.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I'd like to see the price below a fully loaded convertable.

Yeah, me too.

But if it were priced like a fully loaded convertible, I like to see some value there.

For that price I expect....

Brembo brakes
Strong yet super lightweight wheels
Specific aluminum and titanium bits for weight savings
Maybe a dry sump oil system


What else....?

I would like to point out that the C6 Z51 actually DOES have bigger front rotors...same calipers, but the rotors are 13.3" vs 12.8" on the standard car.

Its real simple here guys....I am all for the SS= powerful, stylish boulevard bruiser, a saturday night car....

The Z28 should be the Camaro equivalent of the Z06. Nothing on the car that is not purposeful..no scoops if they don't work, no wings if they don't work, unique wheels, bigger rotors up front, more HP, Manual transmission ONLY and hardtop only.

Why no t's? If you want to look good go buy an SS. The Z06 is hard top only and they are running 25% of total Vette production. Nobody's out there complaining they can't get a targa on a Z06.

The SS needs to be a top of class car, but the Z28 needs to be at a whole new level. Just a mere switching places in their 4th gen roles isn't going to cut it.

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6


Why no t's? If you want to look good go buy an SS. The Z06 is hard top only and they are running 25% of total Vette production. Nobody's out there complaining they can't get a targa on a Z06.



I appreciate the comparison, but there are a lot of people who have clammored for the LS6 to be in the coupe, and even the vert Corvettes...

I don't see why, especially if the rooflines are the same, that the 'ultra performance' Camaro should not be offered with T-Tops...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I don't see why, especially if the rooflines are the same, that the 'ultra performance' Camaro should not be offered with T-Tops...

Stiffness, chassis tuning, weight, safety.

I agree with Darth Xed. I personally am going to want the top performer, but would also like T-tops, atleast as an option. I can understand the argument against it but i dont know. If the engines are the same then maybe id just go with the SS, but if they are different (which i would rather them be) i would want the Z28... with T-Tops and power windows/locks (atleast as an option). I got to think about this some more

Originally posted by poSSum
Stiffness, chassis tuning, weight, safety.

Ya, I see the points here.

I guess I'm not saying it is really wrong to do it that way... just that people want choices and like options, and are willing ot pay for them.

You could still offer the car in the "stripped, no nonsense" fashion you describe, but offer the options.

Fact of the matter is, when a performance car is offered with equal performance numbers, people will almost always take the one with more features/options.

The 4th Gen Z28 proves it, as did just about every other performance car.

Noone orders/buys the 'stripper' cars.

The 25% of production Z06 is an eyebrow raiser, but, I say if the LS6 were available in the Corvette Coupe as well as the Harttop, the Harttop sales would be in the tank........ just like they were when the Harttop debuted with the LS1 in 1999 and 2000. The Harttop was a failure, and GM "saved face" by only offering the LS6 in the hardtop, thereby making it unique and gave people a reason to buy that body style.... because they were forced into it if they wanted the hotter motor.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Funny, I don't recall a Corvette SS
There was a Corvette SS. It was the 1957 racecar that competed at Sebring. This was the first time Chevrolet had ever applied the SS designation to anything.

Anyway, I think that most people think of drag racing and muscle cars when they hear the SS label. Therefore I believe, as many others on here do, that the best way to differentiate the Z28 and the SS is to make the SS the more expensive and possibly more powerful street cruiser, while the Z28 becomes more of a refined road racer that is focused more on a balance of handling and power.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
The 25% of production Z06 is an eyebrow raiser, but, I say if the LS6 were available in the Corvette Coupe as well as the Harttop, the Harttop sales would be in the tank........ just like they were when the Harttop debuted with the LS1 in 1999 and 2000. The Harttop was a failure, and GM "saved face" by only offering the LS6 in the hardtop, thereby making it unique and gave people a reason to buy that body style.... because they were forced into it if they wanted the hotter motor.
I don't think this is exactly accurate. Back in 1997 there were rumors of a hardtop Vette that was to be realised in 99 or so with at least a 375HP motor. It wasn't that the hardtop didn't sell and htat is why they decided to turn it into a Z06. The motor wasn't ready when most of the chassis work was, and they thought they could make some extra bucks by offering the extra body style. Look at the 2001 Z06, why does it "only" have 385HP? I remember reading an article about the 2002 and some GM engineer said that they didn't have time to develop the right cam in time for the 2001 release.

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
I don't think this is exactly accurate. Back in 1997 there were rumors of a hardtop Vette that was to be realised in 99 or so with at least a 375HP motor. It wasn't that the hardtop didn't sell and htat is why they decided to turn it into a Z06. The motor wasn't ready when most of the chassis work was, and they thought they could make some extra bucks by offering the extra body style. Look at the 2001 Z06, why does it "only" have 385HP? I remember reading an article about the 2002 and some GM engineer said that they didn't have time to develop the right cam in time for the 2001 release.


By most accounts, the 1999 HardTop Corvette was to be the "poorman's Corvette".

It was to be the long rumored, no frills, cloth seats, roll up window stripper car that you had been hearing about before the C5 even came out. The base price was supposed to be as much at $6,000 to $10,000 cheaper than the standard coupe. In the end, they missed that mark by a mile, and the HardTop was only $1000 cheaper, and you couldn't get most of the optional goodies that people wanted that were available on the Coupe.

Once they were into the HardTop project, they realized that volume of sales would not justify building the unique parts needed for things like the cloth seats, and roll up windows, so the "stripper Corvette" ended up getting the very things it was supposed to save cost on by eliminating, because just producing the other parts would have actually cost GM more money in the long run, than to just leave the more 'upscale' standard pieces in place.

I stand by the notion that the LS6 was purposfully placed in the HardTop alone to "save face" on on of the biggest failure's in Corvette History: the LS1 HartTop from 1999 and 2000.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Yeah, me too.

But if it were priced like a fully loaded convertible, I like to see some value there.

For that price I expect....

Brembo brakes
Strong yet super lightweight wheels
Specific aluminum and titanium bits for weight savings
Maybe a dry sump oil system


What else....?

Double adjustable shocks front and rear
Any sort of shade tree alignment capability (similar to camber/caster plates for struts)
power steering cooler
high capasity power steering pump
short throw shifter
16 inch wheel option (for road race and autocross application. 16 inch autocross tires are much more affordable than 17 inchers, plus there might be an larger advantage in weight savings that in a shorter, stiffer sidewall. I guess that's one for the engineering dept/'s water cooler.) Non have to come from the factory with 16's, but make it an option to 'skirt' the rules.

Be interesting if Red Planet chimed in on the C5 hardtop and Billy Bob model. As I recall they needed the Billy Bob to make the business plan work in a tough economy. By the time the car hit the market the economy was strong enough to not need the stripper to hit desired sales volumes.


Originally posted by dream '94 Z28

16 inch wheel option (for road race and autocross application.

Might have a problem fitting the brakes we want into 16's. :)

Yeah, it was originally designed as sort of an entry level car (which I would have gone for in 2001), but in the end, they realized that they could sell ever model that they could build, so there was no need to offer the stripped down car. In the end, the $1000 price difference wasn't enough to offset the lack of options that most buyers wanted. But when you add the Z06 package, it transformed the car into the street legal racer type car, the image car so to speak. The hardtop model never sold very well at all w/ the LS1, but is about 25% total sales in Z06 guise.

Regarding this t-top Z28 thing, what if there are no t-tops? Wasn't it discussed at some point that it may just be coupe, vert, and maybe an optional sunroof? I know it depends on what platform it gets built on, but if the structure couldn't support the t-top, what would you guys think then? A sunroofed Z06 type Z28 doesn't seem right to me, besides, if you want the ultimate performer car, you'd have to ditch the flexible t-top platform and go w/ the rigid coupe model, plus there would be a little weight savings as well, which is in line w/ the type of car we're talking about here.

Look at all the stuff the Z06 leaves out in search of weight savings...lighter wheels, lightweight body, no targa, titanium exhaust, heck it even got a thinner windshield! If you're gonna do a balls out Z28, you shouldn't load it down w/ stuff that doesn't make it perform better. My imagined version of the Z28 is similar to the 2002 ZL1 cars, albiet w/out the worked engines.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
By most accounts, the 1999 HardTop Corvette was to be the "poorman's Corvette"....

I stand by the notion that the LS6 was purposfully placed in the HardTop alone to "save face" on on of the biggest failure's in Corvette History: the LS1 HartTop from 1999 and 2000.
All right, guess that all makes sense. Is the next Z06 going to be a different body style, or will it save weight in other ways?

Originally posted by CLEAN
Look at all the stuff the Z06 leaves out in search of weight savings...lighter wheels, lightweight body, no targa, titanium exhaust, heck it even got a thinner windshield! If you're gonna do a balls out Z28, you shouldn't load it down w/ stuff that doesn't make it perform better. My imagined version of the Z28 is similar to the 2002 ZL1 cars, albiet w/out the worked engines.

I know we seem to be in minority on this subject, but I'm also for a hardtop only, lighter Z28. Obviously you can get it with all the options u like, Z06's can come loaded to the gills, but I say Z28's should return to what they were born for. Hardtop only, lighter, suspension tuned for handling prowess over comfort, etc. I've always wanted to see the Z28 to the Camaro what the Z06 is to the Corvette. Let the SS be kinda like what the Z28/SS models are now. Quick cars with good handling outta the box. Give the Z28 model the hardcore refined suspension to make it a real corner carver.

Originally posted by Darth Xed


I guess I'm not saying it is really wrong to do it that way... just that people want choices and like options, and are willing ot pay for them.

A perfect case for a well differentiated SS and Z/28.


The 25% of production Z06 is an eyebrow raiser, but, I say if the LS6 were available in the Corvette Coupe as well as the Harttop, the Harttop sales would be in the tank........ just like they were when the Harttop debuted with the LS1 in 1999 and 2000. The Harttop was a failure, and GM "saved face" by only offering the LS6 in the hardtop, thereby making it unique and gave people a reason to buy that body style.... because they were forced into it if they wanted the hotter motor.

Don't think that GM is much in the business of "saving face"...they'll drop something in a heartbeat if it's not selling for them.

The hardtop is used for the Z06 because it is the lightest, most rigid body in the Corvette line up. If they offered the LS6 in the other body styles....would it sell? I betcha it would.....but it wouldn't be a Z06.

Heavier, less rigid models would require a suspension re-tune. Do you create three different suspension settings (one per body style), or more likely just use the most mild one for all of them? Gone will be the Z06's handling response.
Should the LS6 be available with an auto ? If it were, you could probably kiss off 30 or 40 hp. Certifying LS6 with an auto would probably require a smaller cam and less compression. Look at the M5 and A4 Mach 1...same motor right? Wrong. To pass emissions and drivability, the A4 motor get's less compression, smaller cams, 35 less horsepower and a one second longer trip down the quarter mile.

If the formula is diluted...it will no longer be the same formula.

Z28? Rename the 1LE package Z28. Include the top engine with the package, and make the automatic transmission not available.

SS can continue as it was in the 4th gen. A expensive (very overpriced IMHO) "Look-at-me" package.

Ya know, the Z28 option was available the RS, the regular Camaros, and the LT (in 1974). Maybe it could be a performance option for the SS as well.

(Just thinking out loud on the last one.) :)

Having cut my teeth in, in a Corvette Bronze '68 SS/396/325 hard top, Muncie 4spd my Dad owned and raced, I believe the SS wasn't meant to be the Light-weight corner-carving, buisness only, TA race circuit car.
But a liveable, competent handling, in-your-face!, power-house, that was available with the "highest" output power-plant offered in the model, period. And brakes should be Horsepower & weight specific, not model specific...let's not throw logic out a window..And all of the options and conveniences available on more luxurious cars...like A/C, high-powered stereo, interior trim & materials.
Styling Q's should be easily distinguishable from the Z28 model, as in the beginning...let's end the confusion of 2 decades of models...so when someone sees or races one(Z or SS) they'll know quite clearly what to expect!...(See 1st Gen for references)
I think having the 1LE becoming a new Z28 is what a Z28 was really meant to be, a car that can go from the show-room to the race track with a few minor upgrades!...A Pro-touring car..of sorts...Low mean & lean!..With a suspension/wheel/tire package to walk-the-walk!...if it doesn't enhance performance, don't put it on the car...

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
All right, guess that all makes sense. Is the next Z06 going to be a different body style, or will it save weight in other ways?


The best I've heard is that it will be "noticably different" than the standard Corvette Coupe...

I'm sure something will be popping up soon in spy photos, really...

Originally posted by Z284ever


A perfect case for a well differentiated SS and Z/28.



Don't think that GM is much in the business of "saving face"...they'll drop something in a heartbeat if it's not selling for them.

The hardtop is used for the Z06 because it is the lightest, most rigid body in the Corvette line up. If they offered the LS6 in the other body styles....would it sell? I betcha it would.....but it wouldn't be a Z06.

Heavier, less rigid models would require a suspension re-tune. Do you create three different suspension settings (one per body style), or more likely just use the most mild one for all of them? Gone will be the Z06's handling response.
Should the LS6 be available with an auto ? If it were, you could probably kiss off 30 or 40 hp. Certifying LS6 with an auto would probably require a smaller cam and less compression. Look at the M5 and A4 Mach 1...same motor right? Wrong. To pass emissions and drivability, the A4 motor get's less compression, smaller cams, 35 less horsepower and a one second longer trip down the quarter mile.

If the formula is diluted...it will no longer be the same formula.




Aztek is still around, so I wouldn't say GM is "quick" to kill problem areas all the time.......... their big solutioon was to paint more of the black plastic cladding to try to hide it.

The main point is... if I (and, frankly, the majority of buyers) want the LS6 in the Coupe or Vert, I should be able to get it. I should not be forced into a de-optioned, de-contented HardTop to get the powertrain I want.

Most people don't care so much that the HardTop is a percentage point stuffer than the already excellent Coupe. Most people dropping fifty grand want the bells and whistles.

Eh, I could list a MILLION reasons here, but there will be people that say "well, then it's not a Z06"... my answer: I don't care... and neither do a lot of other who would liked to have had a chance to order an LS6 coupe or convertible.

Maybe we should take a REALLY old school approach to the new Z28? By the way some people describe how they want it, it would have: Radio Delete, Heater Delete, roll up windows, hardtop, no power locks, no cruise, heck, let's get rid of the back seat... weight savings, you know. Dump the carpeting.

Bottom line is the ONLY WAY the car some of you are describing can succeed is if it has a unique, more powerful powertrain, and that is a huge CRUTCH to support your arguement on... offer that powertrain with the optional equipment and you car will never sell. History has shown this over and over again.

In the end, offer the best powertrain with all the options on the menu, dont waste money developing parts that noone wants (roll up windows? Pu-leeze) and sell more cars.

Originally posted by poSSum

Might have a problem fitting the brakes we want into 16's. :)

Yeah I thought about that after I posted. It'd be an interesting engineering discussion.

One more point is I'd like to see the Z28 sit about an inch lower if it's going to be the competition model.

Originally posted by Darth Xed


Maybe we should take a REALLY old school approach to the new Z28? By the way some people describe how they want it, it would have: Radio Delete, Heater Delete, roll up windows, hardtop, no power locks, no cruise, heck, let's get rid of the back seat... weight savings, you know. Dump the carpeting.



Come on Darth. Stop peeing in our Kool-aid. :p

We're saying "coupe only" for some very specific and logical reasons . We still want a radio, (maybe with FM even ;)), back seat and carpeting. There will be no such thing as a "stripped" Camaro. Sounds like you don't like the whole concept behind the Z06 or our concept for a Z/28.....and that's ok.

Really, I don't understand what the problem is here. This thread is about differentiation. So let's differentiate. If you're looking for a fast car with auto, convertible or t-tops, and maybe a softer suspension....why not buy a Camaro SS?


Darth, how would you differentiate these cars?

Originally posted by Z284ever



Darth, how would you differentiate these cars?

Same way you would... hotter powertain in one. I'm fine with that being Z28.

But, don't limit me in what options I can get and don't de-content the standard equipment.

I've also suggested that AWD be a very good way to differentiate two models in the past...

Originally posted by guionM
Z28? Rename the 1LE package Z28. Include the top engine with the package, and make the automatic transmission not available.

SS can continue as it was in the 4th gen. A expensive (very overpriced IMHO) "Look-at-me" package. I can live with that. :D

Originally posted by jg95z28
I can live with that. :D

I can too. I think one thing that most everyone agrees on, is that all that is 1LE, should be folded into a more comprehensive Z/28 package.

Yup, 1LE evolved out of the need for a competition package during a time the Z28 actually didn't even exist. We were in the IROC-Z era then. And when Z28 did come back as the top model, there was still a need for 1LE as a not-so-option packed racer.

If Z28 returns to what its roots are, then clearly the 1LE is obsolete and redundant and in the way of what we want to do with the Camaro.

I just want the fastest, best handling, no-nonsense Camaro without all the look-at-me-now crap.

I like sleepers. That's probably why I still have the stock salad-shooters on my Z-28. Sure a set of nice rims and stripes would make it look a little more agressive. But would they make it any faster? :D

Originally posted by jg95z28
I just want the fastest, best handling, no-nonsense Camaro without all the look-at-me-now crap.

I like sleepers. That's probably why I still have the stock salad-shooters on my Z-28. Sure a set of nice rims and stripes would make it look a little more agressive. But would they make it any faster? :D

Here's a quote from your own car website:

"My current daily ride, a sub 50K mile 1995 Z-28. Fully loaded with every option available in 1995 (pre-SS) and DEAD STOCK! (Except for tires.)"

Not trying to single you out as an 'example', but here, again, stripper don't sell.

You give the impression on being a 'no-nonsense' fan, yet your car has leather, and "every" option availble! ;)

Would you all be willing to wait 4 weeks to order a Z28. I think it's common knowledge that the practice is to load the majority of cars up with options because that's where the profit is AND that's what most people want. How about waling into the dealer and saying, "I want a Z28, but add the monsoon system, delay wipers and cruise".

Or, the dealer installs it to a lot car and you wait a week for those specific options you want?

Just thinkin' of options.

Here it is in pictures....albiet using the 4th gen. My idea of the next Z28 package should look something like this...

http://www.gmmginc.net/html/zl1_camaro.html

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Here's a quote from your own car website:

"My current daily ride, a sub 50K mile 1995 Z-28. Fully loaded with every option available in 1995 (pre-SS) and DEAD STOCK! (Except for tires.)"

Not trying to single you out as an 'example', but here, again, stripper don't sell.

You give the impression on being a 'no-nonsense' fan, yet your car has leather, and "every" option availble! ;) I was 29 years old when I bought the car. THAT WAS ALMOST 9 YEARS AGO. Don't you think its possible that my tastes have changed and I've matured since then? :irk:

i want a z28 to have t-tops if (and only IF) the ss doesnt offer the same kind of performance options. for example if the ss comes with 30-40 less hp than the z28 then im not going to want the ss. yet i want t-tops, so my ONLY option is to buy a slower ss? if thats the case i will be taking my business elsewhere.

now if the ss can be had with the z28 brake setup, the z28 engine and tranny combo ect but without the "no frills" attitude of the z28 then i will be perfectly content. as will alot of other people im sure. most opting for the v8 will want it for performance because they damn sure wont be wanting the fuel mileage it gets. (in comparison to the v6) they will be wanting v8 performance.

Originally posted by jg95z28
I was 29 years old when I bought the car. THAT WAS ALMOST 9 YEARS AGO. Don't you think its possible that my tastes have changed and I've matured since then? :irk:

You still have the car... you have several cars as shown on your website, so I'll assume you have the means to buy a new car if you wanted to.

You chose not to go out and buy a new stripper Z28... so your tastes must not have changed enough to back it up with the wallet...

I'm not bashing you at all... just pointing out that what people say they want and what they buy or own are not always the same thing.

Fact still remains... few people buy stripper cars. People want options. People want nice things... yes, these people even want power and handling too.


Also, what does "maturing since then" have to do at all with claiming to want a de-contented car?!

The Z06 is not what I'd call a stripper. I think its "nicely equipped", LOL.

But it also has Exclusive Content.

Actually I did buy a new car... a bright red 2002 Tahoe... which went to my wife. :p But, you're right though, unless GM brings back vinyl, I probably will go with leather in my next purchase.

I actually can't afford to buy a new car now (I finally got around to paying off the Z-28 last July), and I probably won't be able to afford a new Camaro in 2007-8 because I'll have one kid in college and another in law school. Not to mention a house payment that eats up half my annual salary. However, I already told my wife I'm buying one and somehow I'll make it work out.

When did I ever say I wanted a stripper car anyway? I believe I said I didn't want stripes and a lot of look at me now add ons that do nothing for performance or comfort. A/C, power windows and locks, leather seats, t-tops... those are all comfort features that make my Z-28 more enjoyable. Stripes, scoops, fancy rims, etc... only add attention to the vehicle and don't really add anything performancewise.

I don't know about you, but I personally enjoy not sticking out in the crowd... especially for law enforcement. ;) The '67s just plain stick out because of they're classics. Stripes or no-stripes, they always turn heads. :D

Originally posted by Darth Xed

Fact still remains... few people buy stripper cars. People want options. People want nice things... yes, these people even want power and handling too.




Just to clarify.....

NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A STRIPPER!

Just because we want a coupe only (for rigidity, weight, specific suspension tuning, etc.) and a six speed only, doesn't mean a stripper. The Z06 has carpeting, radio, AC, PW , leather, etc,.......BUT IT IS A SPECIFIC package. And BTW, it sells pretty darned well.

What's wrong with ONE Camaro model having that sort of focus?

Originally posted by Z284ever
Just to clarify.....

NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A STRIPPER!

Just because we want a coupe only (for rigidity, weight, specific suspension tuning, etc.) and a six speed only, doesn't mean a stripper. The Z06 has carpeting, radio, AC, PW , leather, etc,.......BUT IT IS A SPECIFIC package. And BTW, it sells pretty darned well.

What's wrong with ONE Camaro model having that sort of focus? THANK YOU!

That is exactly what I want. A Camaro done up in the style of the Z06. :bow:

OK, maybe I am going to far by saying a stripper, though I think some people have implied it. I'll take a step back on that.

Still, why keep someone from ordering the top powertrain without T-Tops (assuming they are offered in the Camaro line)?

If the car has the same roofline, which it most certainly will, and the T-Tops are sitting there on the factory shelves, why would GM not offer them, especially when they make a nice profit on them, and 85% or so of past Camaro buyers opted for them?

It doesn't make any sense. You are pushing away profit and customers.

That's my point with asking would you wait for ordering extra options.

I think most of us here want the Z28 (no slash) to be Z06 like. Not a stripper, but low(er) optioned for price, weight, simplicity.

If I were GM I'd have no problem giving that 1% or so the ability to get a Z28 with a special roof package or power seats. But seeing that's the minority, that might mean waiting a few weeks for your build order if the dealer can't install it.

Give 'em what they want and they will buy it.

a point i forgot to mention in my post was this. all 4 cars ive ever owned have been hardtops. im making it a point for my next car to have t-tops. i briefly looked at getting a used z06 and could even afford to do so, but the lack of open roof turned me away from performance i could get from other means. then i looked at a targa c5 and realised how expensive the aftermarket is. i could afford everything about the car except the mods.

thats one of the things i LOVE about the LS1 4th gens. it isnt like my 91 L98 car, where you couldnt get t-tops. you can have the fastest engine in the line up with whatever options you wanted. i want the same to hold true with the 5th gen.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
That's my point with asking would you wait for ordering extra options.

I think most of us here want the Z28 (no slash) to be Z06 like. Not a stripper, but low(er) optioned for price, weight, simplicity.

If I were GM I'd have no problem giving that 1% or so the ability to get a Z28 with a special roof package or power seats. But seeing that's the minority, that might mean waiting a few weeks for your build order if the dealer can't install it.

Give 'em what they want and they will buy it.

But, I think you have the scenario backwards.

Most people will want the options, and the T-Tops... history proves that.

So... the question really should be... Will you be willing to wait to order a Z28 without T-Tops?

And, again, the answer historically has been a resounding "NO!" as 85% of coupe production has T-Tops.

Well, maybe I do have it backwards. If you want all that why not go for the SS model?

As I've been following the thread it's sounded like the proposed line up would be the V6 and SS cars having options gallor(sp?) and the Z28 being more basic racer.

So being in business, if it sounds like most people want low option Z28s, that's what I'll give them IN ADDITION to being able to specially order option on Z28s, but the option cars would more than likely be special order cars. Perhaps dealers would stock 3-4 option Z28s, but I think mainly it'd be mostly V6s and SS with a minority of Z28s that are really performance oriented.

Originally posted by Darth Xed

And, again, the answer historically has been a resounding "NO!" as 85% of coupe production has T-Tops.

That's only if you apply 4th gen rules to the 5th gen.

There was no 4th gen equivalent to what we are describing. Maybe a 1LE six speed Z/28 had some of the flavor....but we're describing a much more focused and comprehensive package.

The Z06 is the closest thing Chevy has done in modern times to what we describe...and as we said, it accounts for 25%-30% of production. Pretty successful, if you ask me.

The point is, that Z/28 doesn't need to be...or should be...all things to all people. Really, that IS the whole point.

For variety, the SS will cover those segments. No problem.

But for many of us, the Z/28....the REAL Z/28 described here...will be the choice preferred. It's not for everyone....but it's for us.

Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
Well, maybe I do have it backwards. If you want all that why not go for the SS model?

If the powertrains were the same from SS and Z28, I probably would, but then, what would be the point of having the two models? It's be like the 4th Gen again, with little difference between the two.

Originally posted by Z284ever
That's only if you apply 4th gen rules to the 5th gen.

What was the T-Top percentage for 3rd Gens? It's gotta be pretty high too.


There was no 4th gen equivalent to what we are describing. Maybe a 1LE six speed Z/28 had some of the flavor....but we're describing a much more focused and comprehensive package.

The Z06 is the closest thing Chevy has done in modern times to what we describe...and as we said, it accounts for 25%-30% of production. Pretty successful, if you ask me.



We're going in circles here, but I strongly believe that (hardtop) Z06 sales would be MUCH lower if the drivetrain was offered in the Coupe and Convertible. The Z06 exists as a way of bailing out the failed hardtop and giving it a purpose.



The point is, that Z/28 doesn't need to be...or should be...all things to all people. Really, that IS the whole point.

For variety, the SS will cover those segments. No problem.

But for many of us, the Z/28....the REAL Z/28 described here...will be the choice preferred. It's not for everyone....but it's for us.

That's all fine and dandy... just don't restrict me from getting the hottest powertrain setup with all the options and features offered throughout the line. If it says "SS" on it, that's fine by me.

But wait.... that's pretty much what the 4th Gen did, and you bash that to the end.

Interesting. I've been under the assumption that the SS and Z28 would have equally hot powertrains, but the SS would be high option cars with the Z28 being low(er) option cars with different suspention tuning.

Same powertrains, but different driving personalities between the cars.

Originally posted by CLEAN
Here it is in pictures....albiet using the 4th gen. My idea of the next Z28 package should look something like this...

http://www.gmmginc.net/html/zl1_camaro.html

Looks more along the lines of an SS to me. ;)

Originally posted by Darth Xed




We're going in circles here, but I strongly believe that (hardtop) Z06 sales would be MUCH lower if the drivetrain was offered in the Coupe and Convertible. The Z06 exists as a way of bailing out the failed hardtop and giving it a purpose.

We are going in circles. The hardtop exists because it's light and stiff and makes the Z06 possible. A convertible Z06 would be heavier, slower, have a softer suspension, handle with less precision....and generally complicate, add cost and subtract performance from the whole Z06 program. Would the convertible be a real Z06?
I don't know how else to communicate that. That's why Dave Hill refuses to make the LS6 available on other models. It also may be that they've got a pretty good formula in the undiluted hardtop package, that consistently surpasses sales projections.




That's all fine and dandy... just don't restrict me from getting the hottest powertrain setup with all the options and features offered throughout the line. If it says "SS" on it, that's fine by me.



Well, there you go....everyone's happy.:)

Originally posted by Z284ever
We are going in circles. The hardtop exists because it's light and stiff and makes the Z06 possible. A convertible Z06 would be heavier, slower, have a softer suspension, handle with less precision....and generally complicate, add cost and subtract performance from the whole Z06 program. Would the convertible be a real Z06?
I don't know how else to communicate that. That's why Dave Hill refuses to make the LS6 available on other models. It also may be that they've got a pretty good formula in the undiluted hardtop package, that consistently surpasses sales projections.




Well, of course no one from GM is going to come out and say "We are only putting the better powertrain in the HardTop only, because it's the only way we can get the money back out of it."

They are putting a spin on it to make it sound better.

If the coupe and convertible can't handle it, I guess we are in for a world of trouble with the 2005 Corvette and the LS2 which is at least as powerful as the LS6.


Again to think that anyone is buying the hardtop for anything other than the powertrain is crazy. The LS1 hardtop did not sell... and it was even brand spanking new then too... by the time the Z06 came out, the hardtop was 3 years old! It proves the point...

Originally posted by Darth Xed
If the coupe and convertible can't handle it, I guess we are in for a world of trouble with the 2005 Corvette and the LS2 which is at least as powerful as the LS6.




The Z51 package is only on the coupe.:p

Originally posted by Z284ever
The Z51 package is only on the coupe.:p


No... actually ... it's available on both the coupe and the convertible! :)

Originally posted by Darth Xed
No... actually ... it's available on both the coupe and the convertible! :)

By golly Darth, you're right!

I agree with Darth here. If you read ACAR, it was a GM exec's vision to have a "Billy Bob" Corvette (his words, not mine) which would be a fixed roof car and would be priced thousands less than the Targa/Vert models. There was a big problem with the Billy Bob. The FRC car somehow was never priced a lot cheaper than the other models to make living with a hardtop Corvette worth it. What is the motivation to buy a hardtop that costs about as much as the targa coupe and has the same drivetrain? I can't think of one and apparently no one else could either. As Darth said, from '97-2000 hardtop sales were in the tank. The Z06 package came along to give Corvette that real performance package but if Chevy people were being completely honest I have to believe they'd admit that it was a great way to get hardtops rolling out of the showrooms at the same time.

I guess it's the chicken-or-the-egg debate as to which came about first, or why.

Darth, the problem with ttops and all these other options being on the theoretical Z28 is simply what will differentiate it from the SS if they both have the same engine, same options and everthing.

It'll be back to how the 4th gens were. You'll have a visually bland Z28 that is a bit cheaper than the equally performing SS, yet the SS will have the head-turner factor.

I want a Z28 that offers something the SS does not, and that is a more race-bred package w/o as many frilly, weight adding options, with a unique head-turning look of its own that is less flashy but still aggressive (vs the 4th gen z28 which was visually indistinguisable from a V6 except for badging).

Yes people want cars loaded with options, I will grant you that, but if you have a Z28 and an SS side by side and they have all the same options but one looks a little different...what's the point in having the two cars at all?

Originally posted by Darth Xed
We're going in circles here, but I strongly believe that (hardtop) Z06 sales would be MUCH lower if the drivetrain was offered in the Coupe and Convertible. The Z06 exists as a way of bailing out the failed hardtop and giving it a purpose.
[/B]

I think that's a wayyy oversimplification. Yes you can say that the ONLY reason Z06 exists is to prop up the failed hardtop car. YOu can also make the case listening to Dave Hill that the Z06 is what they wanted to do with the hardtop from the beginning but just couldn't get it all done in '99.

If I recall correctly, the hardtop initially only came with a Z51 and six speed.....and Corvette team kept telling us, from the beginning, that this is just a preview of things to come.

It was indeed, which wasn't a bad thing for me personally. But given the fact that you also got stuck w/ an ugly body, black only interior, no sport seats, no HUD, no auto A/C as I recall, no targa...all for a savings of a whole $1000 over the coupe, most people decided that it wasn't worth it and just got a coupe.

Back to this Camaro thing, assuming 3 engines, base, optional, and top dog, it's safe to assume that the SS and the Z28 would both have the top dog as part of the deal. Can we agree that the SS would be the cruiser and the Z28 the bruiser? I doubt the new car will be available at all w/ manual windows or locks so it wouldn't be a stripper in the traditional sense. But here it is...if you want leather, DVD, t-tops/sunroof, top end stereo (DVD Nav integrated), automatic?, vert...get the SS. If you want gears, big brakes, big wheels, suspension that jars your fillings loose but pulls 1g, lighter weight for better acceleration...get a Z.

Same engine, but 2 flavors, cruiser and bruiser.

Originally posted by CLEAN
Back to this Camaro thing, assuming 3 engines, base, optional, and top dog, it's safe to assume that the SS and the Z28 would both have the top dog as part of the deal. Can we agree that the SS would be the cruiser and the Z28 the bruiser? I doubt the new car will be available at all w/ manual windows or locks so it wouldn't be a stripper in the traditional sense. But here it is...if you want leather, DVD, t-tops/sunroof, top end stereo (DVD Nav integrated), automatic?, vert...get the SS. If you want gears, big brakes, big wheels, suspension that jars your fillings loose but pulls 1g, lighter weight for better acceleration...get a Z.

Same engine, but 2 flavors, cruiser and bruiser.

Exactly! :bow:

If you want the T-tops or convertable and the top motor, opt for the SS. If you want an exclusive all out performance Camaro with the top motor, get the Z28. Performance as in awesome acceleration, top speed, handling like no other, and body rigidity and stiffness that only a hardtop car can provide.

agreed, but if the Camaro is designed based on whatever info we have, it doesnt look like its gunna get ttops. I think there should be some options that transfer from one end to the other.
I do like the "Odd Couple" set up of the Z28 and SS. Let them share the basic set up with the same engine, but different standard options. The Z comes with more basic options like cloth seats while the SS get the leather. That would leave people wanting a luxury cruser to get the SS, and people looking for a "stripper" car(or with less options) as the Z28.

but why make people who want some creature comforts get the ss name?
i personally like the z28 name but i know some people would like some options on it
i don't favor the ss because it sounds so generic and can be grouped into a lot of other chevys where as z28, is just z28, enough said

Originally posted by unvc92camarors
but why make people who want some creature comforts get the ss name?
i personally like the z28 name but i know some people would like some options on it
i don't favor the ss because it sounds so generic and can be grouped into a lot of other chevys where as z28, is just z28, enough said

yeah, I think that the ability of leather, electronics, and other things should be an option on the Z.

So what would have happened to the sales of the Formula if it had a more track ready suspension than the Trans Am? Or is the consensus that the Z28 sales figures shouldn't matter at all. The reason I bring this up is that there was no Formula convertible after the update in MY1998, and a Formula with a better suspension seems like the kind of car you guys want the Z28 to become.

I agree with most of this, as far as the "cruiser/bruiser theory. I have no problem with that. However, IF T-tops are avaliable I think they should be an option on both models. Yes I think the Z28 should have less avaliable options, and be more of the hardcore performance enthusiast car. But T-tops is ONE option it should have avaliable to it. Not only because I want a no frills balls to the wall car yet with T-tops myself. But based on past sales as has been beaten into the ground in this thread. We KNOW T-tops sell so if even cutting out most of the options to the Z28 model that should be one taht is avaliable.

I'd also like to say that most of the push for a quote "stripper" Z28 IMO is to be able to keep COST down. Weight is over-rated, no F-bodys are really what I would call light. And while they neednt make it a pig, its alot easier to swallow a little extra poundage that can ussually be stripped out pretty cheaply, than it is to swallow a 29k starting Z28 price compared to a 23-24k price.

And thats what needs to be concentrated on, so it can be an extreme high performance yet near entry level sports car, so the people who would be really interested in having one. Could afford it. Im talking 22-28 year olds.

If the plan is to keep the "Z" a standard shift only, true sports car, then why would anyone want to weight it down with things like : leather, power seats, electric mirrors etc???
Heck, you might as well throw in an Auto-Tranny option as well...

I say if you want a true "Z" , a modestly equipped, full on-buisness sports car buy a Z28...still NOT a stripper..
But if you want the power(spirit) of the "Z" with more creature comforts and flashier(?) looks, the buy an "SS"...
(Like the LX and the GT were to the Stang..)

And about T-Tops, if built on the new zeta platform, will body flex still be an issue??? Doesn't it have a full hydraformed frame??
And with the smaller roof area, wouldn't a Targa top be more feasable??(That is if, it there is NO flex issues..)

Originally posted by DarthIROC

And thats what needs to be concentrated on, so it can be an extreme high performance yet near entry level sports car, so the people who would be really interested in having one. Could afford it. Im talking 22-28 year olds.

I think that demographic is more inline with Cobalt SS or the base Camaro...or perhaps if Chevy makes a RWD 5.3 SS.

The target demographic for the top Camaro SS and Z/28 will for a higher age group.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
yeah, I think that the ability of leather, electronics, and other things should be an option on the Z.

If they did that, they wouldn't need an SS.

And the Z28 wouldn't be "de-contented", it would have options appropirate for the car. Instead of leather it would have Brembos. Instead of DVD Nav/stereo, it would have gears, a Ripper, and a decent but not top end stereo (most people replace it anyway). Instead of t-tops, it would have Eibachs and Koni's...ect.

Keep in mind that this RPOZ28, i.m.o., would sell at a pretty small volume, as Joe Public would want the luxuries and gadgets over the raw performance. The original Z28 never sold that well compared to the SS. But that shouldn't be considered a sales failure, it's just an option that didn't appeal to the mainstream. A few other options that didn't sell well were ZL-1, LT-1, and a few vettes had L-88's, L-89's, ZR-1's (the original one), and ZR-2's. Granted these were all engines, but they still transformed the nature of the car, much like RPOZ28 would.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I think that demographic is more inline with Cobalt SS or the base Camaro...or perhaps if Chevy makes a RWD 5.3 SS.

The target demographic for the top Camaro SS and Z/28 will for a higher age group.

OK that wont work. I mean your right thats the age group targeted with the cobalt SS, but it only targets a certain percentage of that age demographic. I dont want a FWD 4 banger, nothing against the cobalt I think GM going in the right direction with it but I want RWD V8 power. At the least a supercharged V6, but we already discussed this would be more expensive than an 8.

Now I supose I could live with taking a 5.3 Camaro if necessary, if it had decent enough power, and all the upgrades for the 6.0 would bolt to either. However I would be bitter about giving up over a half liter. Now I realize me being bitter, wont make GM give me the 6.0 just because Im not happy, but I think that they should make an option that comes with al the performance options AND avaliable T-or Targa top for only a couple thousand more. And then have your fully optioned out lots of flare panels for your 30-40k price.

Honestly Im not opposed to an LS2, and T-56 being avalible in a base camaro with no Z or SS name at all.

No one will prevent a 22 yo from buying a 400+ hp car...if he has the means.

But forget about getting one for low to mid $20's. And forget about GM targeting this segment with such a car.

Originally posted by Z284ever
No one will prevent a 22 yo from buying a 400+ hp car...if he has the means.

But forget about getting one for low to mid $20's. And forget about GM targeting this segment with such a car.

Ok, and like I said I can understand, that "if" GM offers the 5.3 for around the price of the Supercharged Cobalt. Becuase now you have your base covered with the 20-25 year olds (the import type "tuner" ;) crowd,and V8 enthusiasts), and most above that age who want the 6.0 liter car can afford it.

However, I think you could get the LS1 Z28 for aruond 24-25 k couldnt you? So I think its reasonable to be able to get the LS2 for 26-27 if you keep it in check with luxury, and looks options. At the least one should be avaliable for just under 30k.

However like I said, for this plan to work the 5.3 needs to be mod freindly. And as I understand it wont anything that would bolt onto the bigger motor bolt onto the 5.3? Arent they basically the same?

Originally posted by DarthIROC
However like I said, for this plan to work the 5.3 needs to be mod freindly.


I have a feeling that the 5.3 will be extremely mod friendly. ;)

Originally posted by DarthIROC
Ok, and like I said I can understand, that "if" GM offers the 5.3 for around the price of the Supercharged Cobalt. Becuase now you have your base covered with the 20-25 year olds (the import type "tuner" ;) crowd,and V8 enthusiasts), and most above that age who want the 6.0 liter car can afford it.

However, I think you could get the LS1 Z28 for aruond 24-25 k couldnt you? So I think its reasonable to be able to get the LS2 for 26-27 if you keep it in check with luxury, and looks options. At the least one should be avaliable for just under 30k.

However like I said, for this plan to work the 5.3 needs to be mod freindly. And as I understand it wont anything that would bolt onto the bigger motor bolt onto the 5.3? Arent they basically the same?

I dont think that the 5.3 V8 will be available for around 20k. Probably more like 23-25k. Id say the 3.9 V6 will be more around the Cobalt SS's price.

I think that the Z28 should start at 26-27k and option it out with performance, and the SS should start around maybe upwards of 27-28 with leather and the optional stereo in the Z as standard in the SS.
I think that the Z28 doesnt have to be an all out racecar, just racecar-like. Yeah, cloth seats should come standard, but leather should be an option. Im sure people are gunna want options as far as an optional stereo, leather, and even an automatic. Perhaps the 6spd that Zeta is designed for can be converted to some sweet paddel shifters! NOW thats hot! Even in an autostick feature.
I dont think that the Z28 should be deprived from all comfort items, but things like 550watt stereo will be a SS item, not a Z28, got me? I also think that the SS doesnt have to be an all out luxury pig. Offer the Z28 suspension as an option, as the stock will be not so wound up.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
I dont think that the 5.3 V8 will be available for around 20k. Probably more like 23-25k. Id say the 3.9 V6 will be more around the Cobalt SS's price.

I think that the Z28 should start at 26-27k and option it out with performance, and the SS should start around maybe upwards of 27-28 with leather and the optional stereo in the Z as standard in the SS.
I think that the Z28 doesnt have to be an all out racecar, just racecar-like. Yeah, cloth seats should come standard, but leather should be an option. Im sure people are gunna want options as far as an optional stereo, leather, and even an automatic. Perhaps the 6spd that Zeta is designed for can be converted to some sweet paddel shifters! NOW thats hot! Even in an autostick feature.
I dont think that the Z28 should be deprived from all comfort items, but things like 550watt stereo will be a SS item, not a Z28, got me? I also think that the SS doesnt have to be an all out luxury pig. Offer the Z28 suspension as an option, as the stock will be not so wound up.

Well actually thats about what I was thinking anyway. But I thought the supercharged Cobalt was gonna be like 23-24. So we are on the same page I guess I jsut had prices mixed up. So me and you ar eright about the same page as far as pricing. Although I'd like to see a limited production $38k IROC-Z avaliable to slay cobra's ;)

But with what you were tlakin about with the options, your almost to the point of whats the point having two models again. I agree that you should be able to get the same powertains optional in both, but alot of the perfoamce options of the Z28 (suspension, tougher rear end, gears, brakes) shoudlnt be avalible for both and I think leather, nice stero, body flares, paddle shift auto (if avaliable) 18" wheels should be only for the SS.

However I still stand firm that either a targa or T-Top, whichever may be put into the line-up should be avalible on both cars.

I think some drag racers (such as myself to an extent) would be upset to not have an Auto tranny avalible with the all out performance Z28. But honestly most people that concerned with making their car a hardcore drag racer have the cash flow to do an auto swap anyway.

I understand about the options, and yes the Z28 will still get more performance options, but why cant it get a few other comfrot items? And on the other aspect, why cant the SS get some sporty options? Personaly, I dont want leather in my Z. I would like Ttops though, along with power seats and XM. I dont want to have to be forced to get the SS. You shouldnt be forced into one car or another. People will want a Camaro, and they want choices. I dont want to be forced into the SS when I want a Z28. That was the problem with GM, they made cars that they want you to drive. I want a car that I want to drive, and they should offer some options that overlap the 2 top models.

And if the Camaro still raced in IROC, I could see it. Bringing back the name when they have no tie with the series wouldnt mean much.

Originally posted by Big Als Z

And if the Camaro still raced in IROC, I could see it. Bringing back the name when they have no tie with the series wouldnt mean much.

It would mean I could have a NEW IROC! :mad: No other explanation needed :p Honestly though I think it would sell. Even if they only released it two years Im sure it would sell, think of how many guys would bie it just for nostalgic purposes, cause they had one brand new in the 80s. And in conjusntion with Camaro IROC may be teh most recognized name there is. ANd hey they could make it and re-enter the IROC races.

And yes I do know Im pissing in the wind on that subject, but my point remains valid.

I can see the Z getting a COUPLE luxury options. But honestly most people who want the al out performnce model are "modish" people anyway. So they wouldnt mind terribly pulling seats from an SS and swapping them if they wanted leather. And on a seat note, this jsut came to me. The SS should get touring type leather seats, and the Z28 should get some cool cloth recaro seats or something like that. And other than perhaps gear sets I dont think the SS should get any of the performance optiosn teh Z gets. However I do agree teh Z28 should have an XM option.

Im not saying that the Z gets a LOT of luxury items, or am I saying that the SS get a LOT of performance options. I think what comes standard on the Z should be a "sport" option, and what comes standard on the SS should be the "luxury" option package for the Z.
The standard Z28 suspension should be an option on the SS, not any type of Z28 optional suspension. And the base leather, stereo, and other minor things can be an option package for the Z, not the DVD nav and other things. Just a tiny overlap of the 2, but not a total overlap.

Originally posted by CLEAN
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Keep in mind that this RPOZ28, i.m.o., would sell at a pretty small volume, as Joe Public would want the luxuries and gadgets over the raw performance.

Well, you never know CLEAN.

Certainly, it needs to be designed with a relatively narrow focus, in order to get the desired effect. But that's EXACTLY what was done with the Z06....and look what happened....it has always sold at 250%-300% of initial sales projections.


No, a real Z/28 won't sell like a Camry......but I definitely believe that there is market for such a car.

....how can GM possibly make a car that every camaro enthuisits likes? think of the GTO, everyone was bitching for a new RWD v-8 performance car, along come the new GTO and everyone keeps bitchin....

....anyways, the cars will be simular no matter what, GM is all about making money, huge variations in the cars would not be as cost effective as rebadging the same car and using the name (heritage /nostalgia) to sell it (ohh forgot to mention that hood scoop;) )....the days of real unique muscle cars is way behind us

I think you may be missing the point a little.

First off, what people bitch about as far as the GTO is concerned is it's un-Pontiac bland styling.

As far as model differentiation, it is possible to get different personalities out of the different models. Consider when the SS came out in '96 its suspension was noticably firmer than the Z28 (which was itself firmed up in '98).

Will the differentiation be as great as in '69 when we had a few front ends to choose from? No, probably not, but I think it is possible, even through economies of scale, to give the Z28 a different flavor than the SS.