Why I feel the 5th gen should step up to the Cobra

(forgive me, I feel like arguing about this)

lets see...

Cobra is in the vette territory and srt-4 is dangerously close to camaro territory from the factory:alert::alert::alert:

So while everyone else (ford and dodge) is breaking boundaries... chevy is (well probably will be) living in the past. The vette needs to raise the bar a bit and get out of mustang/cobra territory, and the camaro needs to do the same and get out of NEON territory. I could list more reasons, but that should be enough in itself.

The 5th gens z28/SS may or may not best the Cobra model (we don't know yet), but it'll be more than competitive against the other more common mustangs imo. That is what really matters. If it shows its tail to Machs and GT's, why sweat over a couple of limited production high dollar Cobra's?

Thing is, If Ford takes the Cobra into the 40k range, what can chevy do to compete with it? It is in a whole different price bracket.

Another thing, Ford is talking of further seperating Cobra from the rest of the mustang lineup in terms of price, refinement, looks, hardware, technology, and performance. Is GM willing to put that much seperation between the 5th gen top dog and the lower 5th gen models?

And don't even worry about the SRT-4. They aren't even as quick as the late 4th gen Ls-1 models.

Ford has no Corvette, and unless the Cobra begins to perform like a Ford GT, they don't have to worry about product overlap or producing a lower priced vehicle that performs as well as or better than their higher priced version.

Many people don't realize that Chevrolet is in a very odd position. They are perhaps the only carmaker on the planet besides Nissan that has 2 very high performance vehicles in their showroom that share space in the performance car segment (Nissan had the Skyline & Fairlady Z both as high performance cars.... Fairlady Z is what Nissan calls their "Z" car in Japan).

With Corvette-Cobra-Camaro, you have an endless game of the dog chasing it's tail:

1. Corvette makes a benchmark in performance.
2. Ford has no Corvette, so Cobra moves up to match Corvette as much as a 4 passenger car can.
3. If Camaro moves up to Cobra levels, it makes the Corvette become irrelevent unless it also moves up.
4. The whole process happens over & over again.

Problems with this situation:

1. Corvette will always be the 1st to hit the performance benchmark.
2. Cobra will always move up to Corvette levels the following year.
3. Camaro will always either be a year behind Cobra or at the very best, match Cobra each year it's performance is upgraded. Camaro will never have the same performance as the Corvette till the Corvette moves up a level, while Cobra will never be more than a year behind, therefore a year ahead of the Camaro.

The only way to rectify this situation is:

1. Quit yer whining, and realize that a $25,000 Camaro only has to out perform a $25,000 (or even $30,000) Mustang, and not a $40-45,000 Cobra. :p :)

2. Kill off the Corvette leaving Camaro the top performing Chevy (if you actually think this is going to happen, you may now remove your head from your posterior and get some much needed air).

3. Ford turns Cobra into a 2 passenger Corvette-like sports car (like, yeah, right!).

4. Camaro is killed off permanently, Pontiac brings back the Firebird, and since Firebird doesn't have to share showroom space with the Corvette, and the GTO is a totally different market altogether, it can become the "Cobra-hunter" some of you are craving.


So, if you want an F-body that kills Cobras without having to force the money making Corvette to justify it's existence, write GM in favor of killing the Camaro in favor of the Firebird.

Otherwise, you are just wasting your time and whatever electricity it's taking to run your computer because you are making zero business sense.

I like that last idea of yours ;) . I'm not sure Pontiac has the room for a Firebird anymore though. You've got the Solstice on one side, and the goat on the other. While the Goat is not similar on the outside, or inside for that matter, what's under the hood is. I'm not sure Pontiac wants two cars with a Corvette engine. Maybe if they ditched one of their sedans and turned it into the Firebird (they'd just have to lighten the load to make it move with the smaller engine).

The next-gen GTO will become the 4-seat Vette (same engine and similar performance) that will crush the Mustang Cobra.

Originally posted by johnsocal
The next-gen GTO will become the 4-seat Vette (same engine and similar performance) that will crush the Mustang Cobra.

The next Cobra will be pushing 500 horsepower.

That's an awful lot of crushing. :)

That kind of stinks for the Vette. It gets a brand-new 400hp engine and the Mustang comes along a year later with a 500hp engine.

Originally posted by Ramune
That kind of stinks for the Vette. It gets a brand-new 400hp engine and the Mustang comes along a year later with a 500hp engine.
Thats why im saying vette needs to kick it up a notch along with the camaro... but gunion's comment about the dog chasing its tail makes sense. Except Id rather see chevy be the tail a little more and let ford and dodge do more chasing... its the other way around right now.

Originally posted by Ramune
That kind of stinks for the Vette. It gets a brand-new 400hp engine and the Mustang comes along a year later with a 500hp engine.

Um, the Z06 will likely have around 500hp to compete with the Cobra. The current Z06 is the direct competitor to the Cobra, not the base vette....so why would you expect it to change?

yeah it might have 500 hp, but in the end it is still a Mustang. And I'm not talking bad about stangs, but compare it to a Lambo, or Ferrari, or even a Corvette. Big deal, its 500 hp, but it lacks the quality, and presence that the other cars do. How much farther can the bar go up without topping out? The old cars back in the 60's had 400+ hp from the factory. Well now we are finally back to that state of production. Only with allot more efficiency. I just think that we are at the top of the hp game now, or pretty darn close. Any higher and you get in to exotic range, or race car range. JMHO

It might be "just a mustang" but you get a hell of a lot for your $$. The vette should be more refined and be of better quality for the premium you pay over the stang.

I'd say the mustang isn't doing half bad for itself. Plus, most mustang fans aren't expecting a BMW/Mercedes quality interior.

posted by RobertoZ28
yeah it might have 500 hp, but in the end it is still a Mustang. And I'm not talking bad about stangs, but compare it to a Lambo, or Ferrari, or even a Corvette. Big deal, its 500 hp, but it lacks the quality, and presence that the other cars do. And F-bodies were just F-bodies, sold not only as $18k 6-cylinder slugs, but $35k SLP offerings. To accomlish this task, and keep the base MSRP at levels that will continue to draw buyers, concessions have to be made.
In any case, the quality of the completely redesigned and re-engineered Mustang is supposed to be substantially improved. So I'd hedge any quality judgements until you're comparing a 2005 Mustang against a 2005/2006 GTO or Corvette. Obviously, a Mustang (even a Cobra) wasn't meant to be compared to a Lambo or Ferrari...the very thought is ridiculous.

Ford hasn't released any pricing info on the '07 'bra. Right now there is so much speculation over major features of the car that I don't think anybody can make the prediction that it'll be "$40-45,000". '05 GT pricing is going to be very close to the current cars, what additions over and above the current Cobra hardware upgrades could possibly push the MSRP $5-10k higher? I think it's more likely we'll see an '07 Cobra that has increased in price more in line with slightly over the rate of inflation from '04-'06...maybe $37-38k base with a few available options like chrome wheels, etc..
S.

Here's my .02 ...

It would tickle me plum purple if the next V8 Camaro was faster than the Mustang GT off the showroom floor. I have no issue with it whatsoever.
What's different about that versus what we had in 2002?

I sense the position of many in this thread is that you want the Camaro to be the fastest, or the Vette to be the fastest, or the Cobra to be the fastest, or whatever.
Know what... here's a
NEWSFLASH!!!
The fastest car doesn't guarantee sales, i.e. success!

It's purely for bragging rights - well, big deal.
Who brags on sales flops?!?!

OK, so you don't jump on a new Z28 Camaro in your 2008 Mustang GT on the street --- unless you have mods. ;)
Truth is - you shouldn't race on the street ANYWAYS.
And that's "the rest of the story" as Paul says.
As an educated pony car fan, I'd rather see the basic V8 and even elevated V8 cars remain powerful, but docile, well-mannered, and price-conscious. But give me a workable platform, and the aftermarket to make it what I want it to be after I get it home! An autoX star - great, I'll drop some cash on the suspension and brakes, and leave the engine basically stock. A drag car - ok, I'll go gears, wheels/tires, engine mods like a blower or juice-bottle, and hardly touch the front-end suspension. Maybe a hybrid of both. As long as I can get into the car cheap, and build on it - I'm happy.
And NO Dorothy, fast does NOT come cheap from the factory.

Price DOES matter. Look at our talk about the 300C and how it has affected the car market. I know folks were dropping $33k or more for SS and WS6 cars, and they still do for Cobras, but those are the ones that were willing - what about those that weren't willing, or didn't have that much to drop? I see LOTS more GTs, LX's, and Z28's on the road with heavy mods than I do the Cobras and SS's on a daily basis.

My point is, for the same $33 or so, I could have a NICE Mustang GT new, and throw in a blower, gears, and exhaust system easily. Might even have enough left over to install some suspension upgrades or wheels/tires. So for the same $33k, I now have a car that is unique to me, the way I want it, and makes me stand out from the other "showroom models".

For those who don't want the DIY approach, there's always Roush, Saleen, and the others. They'll put together your rocketship for you - for a fee. Meanwhile, Ford is still churning out the econo-Mustang for the masses, keeping the car alive, cheap, well, and PROFITABLE for Ford.

SO in closing...
May your Camaro be the fastest thing on the street from the showroom - if that's what you want!;)
But think about it - is that REALLY what you want... again?:confused:

I'd rather let the tuners produce the warrior cars, and let the OEM carmaker deliver a sound platform based on quality and price values. JMO. :bow:

Originally posted by ProudPony
NEWSFLASH!!!
The fastest car doesn't guarantee sales, i.e. success!

It's purely for bragging rights - well, big deal.
Who brags on sales flops?!?!
What do car magazines like Car & Driver look for? Outstanding cars. Chevy only makes econoboxes these days excluding the vette and the SSR. Ground-breaking cars may not sell in large volumes, but they DO get publicity. Imagine how many young kids read magazines and drool over the cobra. When the time comes to buy a car, they quickly realize the car they want is out of their reach. So what do they do? buy the next best thing: probably a mustang GT or some other variation of the mustang. Same with SRT-10. Notice how much attention that gets at the auto show? Most of those people probably cant afford one, but are impressed by it, so they are tempted by the next best thing: a hemi ram.

FYI the vette and certainly not the SSR are not going to be on the cover of C&D every month. Imports are probably so successful because theres 6 new (and exciting) cars every month... unlike chevy which has the vette, the vette, the vette, the vette, the SSR, and all the econoboxes no one cares about. Makes you wonder why those magazines rarely have anything good to say about American cars. But, even with that reputation... have you noticed how much attention the stang has got from them?

I agree that the Corvette needs to move way up in performance and give the Camaro room, especially to best the M*stang itself. If the GTO has the same power as the Camaro it'll still be heavier and slower so I don't see it going after the top M*stang.

Originally posted by IZ28
I agree that the Corvette needs to move way up in performance and give the Camaro room, especially to best the M*stang itself. If the GTO has the same power as the Camaro it'll still be heavier and slower so I don't see it going after the top M*stang.
Well if our cobra killer must be a GTO, so be it. I just dont like the fact that we need our top car to compete with fords pony car:rolleyes:

I think all of this talk of a Cobra killer is kinda crazy. I find it really hard to imagine any car other than Z06 getting the necessary 500 hp to wax the Cobras ass. Any thoughts of a 500 hp 5th gen is simply a pipe dream. The 5th gen and next gen GTO will be inline to compete with the Mustang GT's and Mach's. Some people on here just need to accept the reality that Z06 is the only GM car that is going to be able to "put the Cobra in it's place." You guys have to remember that the Cobra is FoMoCo's Corvette.

A Cobra-killer GTO?
ROTFLMAO!
Yeah...sure. Keep dreaming people. :p
S.

quote:
-----------------------------------------------
A Cobra-killer GTO?
ROTFLMAO!
Yeah...sure. Keep dreaming people.
-----------------------------------------------


Amen Brotha!

Originally posted by Snorman
A Cobra-killer GTO?
ROTFLMAO!
Yeah...sure. Keep dreaming people. :p
S.

why not? There is absolutly no reason not to think it would? The Cobra is in the same price braket as the GTO is now, why couldnt the GTO, the flagship of Pontiac in the future, go head to head with the Cobra? I dont see whats so funny? Maybe not the present GTO, but in the near future, yes. I dont get why this is so funny?

Just taking a guess here, but it might be that doing this is and always has been the CAMARO's job?! :think:

Could also be that the Camaro is the M*stang's direct class competitor and that the GTO isn't?! :think:

i also believe the GTO should go after the Cobra, all it needs is to match it in power to weight ratio, and a more agressive appearance (quad tailpipes, scoops, a supercharger if need be.), and im not just saying match it "advertised HP" but match it in potential HP, and ease of getting there.

call it the judge, why not, and price it just below 40k.

posted by Big Als Z
why not? There is absolutly no reason not to think it would? The Cobra is in the same price braket as the GTO is now, why couldnt the GTO, the flagship of Pontiac in the future, go head to head with the Cobra? I dont see whats so funny? Maybe not the present GTO, but in the near future, yes. I dont get why this is so funny?It's funny because you are apparently under the misguided impression that Ford is going to sit around and wait for GM to build a GTO that'll take out Cobra. In case you're not aware, Ford is releasing a completely redesigned Mustang in a few months that's packing another 50+ hp, improved chassis and structure and interior. GTO is already several steps behind Cobra. Cobra outbrakes, outhandles and (significantly) out accelerates GTO (but GTO does have nice interior). Next year, GTO might be able hang with the current Cobra if it gets the LS2. I'd be more inclined to believe it'll have its hands full with the 315+hp, 300-350lb. lighter GT (not to mention any other special edition Mach-I type offerings Ford brings to the table).
So yeah...it's funny. To think that Ford is going to sit around and wait for GM to build a Cobra-killer GTO is silly. With the F-bodies dead Ford built a 425hp '03/'04 Cobra, completely redesigned the '05, is planning a very serious '06 L and an equally impressive '07 Cobra. Obviously it's not funny to you because you're a Mustang/Ford-hating GM loyalist. :D
S.

Originally posted by Snorman
It's funny because you are apparently under the misguided impression that Ford is going to sit around and wait for GM to build a GTO that'll take out Cobra. In case you're not aware, Ford is releasing a completely redesigned Mustang in a few months that's packing another 50+ hp, improved chassis and structure and interior. GTO is already several steps behind Cobra. Cobra outbrakes, outhandles and (significantly) out accelerates GTO (but GTO does have nice interior). Next year, GTO might be able hang with the current Cobra if it gets the LS2. I'd be more inclined to believe it'll have its hands full with the 315+hp, 300-350lb. lighter GT (not to mention any other special edition Mach-I type offerings Ford brings to the table).
So yeah...it's funny. To think that Ford is going to sit around and wait for GM to build a Cobra-killer GTO is silly. With the F-bodies dead Ford built a 425hp '03/'04 Cobra, completely redesigned the '05, is planning a very serious '06 L and an equally impressive '07 Cobra. Obviously it's not funny to you because you're a Mustang/Ford-hating GM loyalist. :D
S. [/B]

...as much as you are a Ford loving fan boy :rolleyes:

What makes you think GM will sit around and let things roll by as well? Do you not think that special editions of GTO and other performance vehicles are in the works at GM?

we can get blown too (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260748)

uluz28
...as much as you are a Ford loving fan boy Considering I have a turbo Buick and also a new Z71 Suburban sitting in my garage, this comment has little merit. :rolleyes:
What makes you think GM will sit around and let things roll by as well? Do you not think that special editions of GTO and other performance vehicles are in the works at GM?You mean like the tepid performing SSR and Silverado SS? Or GTO? Wake me when they arrive. ;) I think the C6 is a great machine. Unlike many, I absolutely love the redesign, and a 6.0 400hp LS2 is icing on the cake. At $53k, the CTS-v is also attractive in that demographic. But what else has GM offered? I heard two years ago about the Cobra-killing GTO, the 12-second SSR, the Lightning-stomping Silverado SS were coming...where are they?
S.

Originally posted by Snorman
Next year, GTO might be able hang with the current Cobra if it gets the LS2. I'd be more inclined to believe it'll have its hands full with the 315+hp, 300-350lb. lighter GT

Did I miss something? The new Mustang won't be 350 pounds lighter than the current one...similar weight yes...but 300-350 pounds would put the 2005 Mustang GT at or near C6 weight....:no:

Sorry...meant 300-350lbs. lighter than the near-3800lb. GTO.
S.

well, i see what you mean, sorta. i know most of you won't like this, but do you think that these cars are getting unreasonable fast?
with the chasing in performance going back and forth, everyone wants a 12 second car that costs 25k
my thinking is that the next generation of camaro/vette won't have that much of a hp difference. i'm guess that the engineers will realize what is happening and invest more in suspension. They will design a car that feels fast. after all, the average consumer doesn't do research to know what it runs in the 1/4. they test drive it and will take it if it feels fast (if thats what their looking for). the better suspension will make it a bit faster, as far as launching might go. :confused: but they will also be building and setting new standards in the cars handling ability and skidpad. skidpad is probably the most underrated benchmark out there. will the next camaro be fast? yes, but you get what you pay for. will it handle better? i'm betting alot better.:) :D

Who said anyone was waiting to do anything? The Cobra doesnt arrive for another year, putting the GTO as the PRIME performance car when it gets the LS2 this year. The Mustang will be lagging, despite a weight advantage.
Your not getting my point. Who said Pontiac is gunna wait for the Mustang? What if HSV gets involved in the development of the future GTO? Yeah, the Mustang Cobra will be out first, but what would stop Pontiac from making a GTO to top the Cobra? Then the battle starts again, the Mustang tried to top the GTO.. etc etc untill someone has a hissy about HP and we go back to civic land again. No one knows what the future will hold for both the GTO or Cobra. I say that since the Cobra will be up in GTO price range, why not go after it? I still dont get whats so funny about it all? I forsee a great battle between the HSV backed GTO and the Cobra.

Originally posted by Snorman
A Cobra-killer GTO?
ROTFLMAO!
Yeah...sure. Keep dreaming people. :p
S.
:lol::blah:

I honestly dont think GM is gonna sit back and take 3rd place forever.

A 3300-3400lbs. Camaro with the LS2 would smoke the Cobra. It is very important to keep the next Camaro light. The '05 Mustang went up about 50lbs. in weight.

A 3300-3400lbs. Camaro with the LS2 would smoke the Cobra.

I agree that a 3300-3400 pound Camaro with an LS2 would handle the CURRENT Cobra. But the thing you are failing to mention is the fact that by the time the new Camaro gets back, the Cobra is going to be 500 hp. Yes, I think that the next Camaro will outperform all other Mustangs as it did during the 4th gen. But to think that a 400 hp 5th gen has got a chance against the upcoming Cobra is crazy. Chevy better throw more than an LS2 under the hood if it hopes to hang with the Cobra.

Originally posted by JoeliusZ28
:lol::blah:

I honestly dont think GM is gonna sit back and take 3rd place forever.
3rd? Who came in 2nd?

Al, I think the thing you are forgetting about in your "GTO will smoke the upcoming Cobra" scenerio is that GM will never allow Pontiac to have the Z06 engine. NEVER.

That they are allowing Cadillac to use the Vette platform is amazing. However, even Cadillac is only getting "old" Vette engine technology. I would be amazed if GM let Cadillac get ahold of the upcoming Z06 engine............... much less Pontiac.

Just as the current GTO "only" has the outgoing Vette base engine. Thus, the upcoming Z06 engine would have to be on the way out of the Vette before GM would ever let another division use it.

As the current GTO is heavier than the current Cobra, it will need all of the Z06's upcoming engine to be able to run with the new Cobra (assuming the weight issues stay the same).

Originally posted by Big Als Z
3rd? Who came in 2nd?
I believe both the ford GT and the Dodge viper are ahead of the ZO6.

The mustang/cobra is ahead of the camaro and GTO... and a charger/srt-8 IS in the works as far as I know, so im assuming the srt8 will be dodges way of jumping in the game.

That would put GM in 3rd place of the high end performance, and eventually the lower step performace.

Originally posted by 94LightningGal
Al, I think the thing you are forgetting about in your "GTO will smoke the upcoming Cobra" scenerio is that GM will never allow Pontiac to have the Z06 engine. NEVER.

That they are allowing Cadillac to use the Vette platform is amazing. However, even Cadillac is only getting "old" Vette engine technology. I would be amazed if GM let Cadillac get ahold of the upcoming Z06 engine............... much less Pontiac.

Just as the current GTO "only" has the outgoing Vette base engine. Thus, the upcoming Z06 engine would have to be on the way out of the Vette before GM would ever let another division use it.

As the current GTO is heavier than the current Cobra, it will need all of the Z06's upcoming engine to be able to run with the new Cobra (assuming the weight issues stay the same).

who said that GM wont let Pontiac have it? And really, this whole section is based off what "might" happen. The Camaro "might" come back. Its probably designed and halfway to the floors of NAIAS, but what will happen from now and then could be a lot. Aslo, the Cobra "might" get 500hp. No one has come out and said it yet. Coletti said that more cars will share the GT's motor, but thats a $$$ motor, but he never said "The next cobra will have 500 or more hp." Not trying to dowplay the Cobra, but like I said, its all "maybe" right now. Nothing is in stone just yet. Im sure there will be a hi-po Cobra, but who knows what power?
Maybe the Z06 will get 500+hp. We have plenty of insider info, but things change.
Point is, no one really knows what is going to happen. Im sure that if the GTO continues to be Pontiacs halo car, im sure it will get some sort of a mega hp engine. It would be silly not to think that. And it would be silly if you think that Pontiac would let the Mustang Cobra slide past them if they are gunna play in the same price range. We see that the GTO will be getting the LS2 the same year as the C6 is. Who says that GM's attitude about engines and power hasnt changed? I tend to think that we downplay a lot of things GM does. Has GM pulled a 180? Not at all, but its probably at 160*. With the hopeful success of the Mustang, GM will be forced, once again, to aim for the Mustang. Im sure that Pontiac doesnt want to be behind in the HP either. Who says that GM will use the Z06 engine? No one knows it all. We all tend to get carried away with things that might happen.

I don't see the GTO getting Z06 stuff either. I see the GTO being a little slower than the next Gen "real" Z28.

posted by Big Als Z
Im sure that if the GTO continues to be Pontiacs halo car, im sure it will get some sort of a mega hp engine. It would be silly not to think that. And it would be silly if you think that Pontiac would let the Mustang Cobra slide past them if they are gunna play in the same price range. We see that the GTO will be getting the LS2 the same year as the C6 is.Unless GTO starts putting up some impressive sales figures, what's to prompt GM to put this "mega hp engine" in it? The LS2 is a nice upgrade, but it's still not going to be a Cobra-killer (or even equal). Dyno tests have proven beyond argument that GTO is not underrated, as the LS1 F-bodies were. It's 350hp rating translates to ~300rwhp in M6 cars and ~290rwhp in A4 cars. The LS2 will be rated at...what...390hp? They'll probably dyno ~330-340rwhp, which is anywhere between 30-50rwhp off a bone stock '03/'04 Cobra (BTW...the shop that dyno'd my car had just done a bone stock '04 Cobra 'vert. It made 410rwhp...bone stock :eek: ). The GTO will still be ~150lbs. heavier. So the LS2 still isn't going to put it on equal footing with the current Cobra, much less whatever shows up in '06.
GTO is a nice car, but it's not gonna' be a Cobra-killer IMO.
S.

Originally posted by 94LightningGal
Al, I think the thing you are forgetting about in your "GTO will smoke the upcoming Cobra" scenerio is that GM will never allow Pontiac to have the Z06 engine. NEVER.

That they are allowing Cadillac to use the Vette platform is amazing. However, even Cadillac is only getting "old" Vette engine technology. I would be amazed if GM let Cadillac get ahold of the upcoming Z06 engine............... much less Pontiac.

Just as the current GTO "only" has the outgoing Vette base engine. Thus, the upcoming Z06 engine would have to be on the way out of the Vette before GM would ever let another division use it.

As the current GTO is heavier than the current Cobra, it will need all of the Z06's upcoming engine to be able to run with the new Cobra (assuming the weight issues stay the same).


Cadillac getting "old" engine technology? Give me a break! The LS2 is basically the 6.0 truck engine with LS6 heads! :lol:

As far as being amazed about Cadillac getting the next Z06 engine, it has the current Z06 engine, so what's there to be amazed at?? I also don't understand why you feel the CTS should have an LS2 engine. Is Cadillac suppose to have an engine in January 2004 that won't even be out for another 6 months? Cadillac will share the new LS7 engine when it comes out in the next Z06 next year for 2006.

As for the GTO, I don't remember if it was Lynn Myers from Pontiac or Bob Lutz who stated that GTO would evolve each year, and each edition would have upgraded performance. We know the LS2 is coming next year, and there is evidence that the 2006 will either be supercharged or have the LS7, so it's going to be quicker still.

As for the GTO's weight, yes it's heavier than the Cobra...by just 70 pounds! Therefore, the LS2 powered GTO should easily accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra. As for the future Mustang Cobra, it's not due till model year 2006! GTO gets another power upgrade that year which should put it on par with the Cobra.



As for the other discussions as to if Cobra & GTO are in the same market, of course they are. There is less than a 100 pound difference between GTO & Cobra. GTO is also running around $32K to Cobra's $35K. Both cars are roughly the same length, width, and height. Both cars seat 4 people in a somewhat upright fashion. Neither car is aimed towards budget conscious enthusiasts and both cars are marketed to people who want something a little exclusive & special. Where the cars differ is that GTO has the better interior & handling feel, Cobra is a rocket that has SVT's outstanding four star service & support.

So you are telling me that the GTO "may" get a supercharged version of the LS2 engine???

While this engine probably would not have the same power as the Z06 engine (I could see a rating of 450hp), I really don't see GM allowing the GTO to have significantly more power than the standard Corvette engine.

What I meant by "old" engine technology is this. The GTO has gotten the outgoing standard Corvette engine. Meaning that for 1 model year it is running the same engine as the base Corvette. If it gets the LS2 engine for the '06 model year, it would again be running the same engine as the base Corvette.

Pontiac is not a prestige brand, as Cadillac is. While GM may have loosened their tie a bit by allowing Cadillac to use some "outgoing" Corvette Z06 engine, I really don't see them allowing any lowly Pontiac that same freedom. Also, I would find it odd that they would allow any Pontiac to have more power than the CTSV.

This is not a slam of GM by any means. I just base this off of what GM has done for years in regards to Vette technology. Yes they have gotten a bit more open about it. However, I can't see them letting one of their lower divisions like Pontiac the same freedom that their premium division aka Cadillac has.

Of course, they may prove me wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong............ and won't be the last.

posted by guionM
As for the GTO's weight, yes it's heavier than the Cobra...by just 70 pounds! Therefore, the LS2 powered GTO should easily accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra. As for the future Mustang Cobra, it's not due till model year 2006! GTO gets another power upgrade that year which should put it on par with the Cobra.Cobra is listed at 3,665. GTO is listed at 3,761 for M6 cars and 3,774 for A4's. So it's actually more like 100-120lbs. difference.
And how is it going to "easily" accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra? I seriously doubt they'll make the 380-390rwhp needed to do it. Add in the skinny 245/45-17's and IRS and GTO's don't launch any better than '03/'04 Cobras. They suffer from wheelhop just as frequently as Cobras. Going from a 350hp LS1 to a 390hp LS2 isn't going to close the gap enough.
As for the future Mustang Cobra, it's not due till model year 2006!It's due in '06 as MY'07. Lightning is due in '05 as MY'06. Ford has a promotional "Powerlease" program structured around these dates for current Cobras and L's.
We know the LS2 is coming next year, and there is evidence that the 2006 will either be supercharged or have the LS7, so it's going to be quicker still.Well...you're predicting two powertrains into the future. I'd wait to see how it fairs with the LS2 before reading into Lutz's past comments about the following offerings.
The '07 Cobra is going to be a bad b*tch. GTO will need to step it up significantly to keep pace.
I say...bring 'em on! ;)
S.

Originally posted by 94LightningGal
So you are telling me that the GTO "may" get a supercharged version of the LS2 engine???

While this engine probably would not have the same power as the Z06 engine (I could see a rating of 450hp), I really don't see GM allowing the GTO to have significantly more power than the standard Corvette engine.

What I meant by "old" engine technology is this. The GTO has gotten the outgoing standard Corvette engine. Meaning that for 1 model year it is running the same engine as the base Corvette. If it gets the LS2 engine for the '06 model year, it would again be running the same engine as the base Corvette.

Pontiac is not a prestige brand, as Cadillac is. While GM may have loosened their tie a bit by allowing Cadillac to use some "outgoing" Corvette Z06 engine, I really don't see them allowing any lowly Pontiac that same freedom. Also, I would find it odd that they would allow any Pontiac to have more power than the CTSV.

This is not a slam of GM by any means. I just base this off of what GM has done for years in regards to Vette technology. Yes they have gotten a bit more open about it. However, I can't see them letting one of their lower divisions like Pontiac the same freedom that their premium division aka Cadillac has.

Of course, they may prove me wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong............ and won't be the last.

1. The LS1 is GM's only current automotive V8 that was configured for rear wheel drive till they pumped money converting Cadillac XLR's Northstar engine. The higher cost LS6 resides in the higher cost Z06 Corvette and the higher cost CTSv. The same will go for the LS7. If there is a more expensive version of the GTO in the future, it's not at all a far reach to expect it to have the same engine, or at the least similar horsepower.

2. I suspect you have fallen victum to that "Urban Legend" that nothing has more power than the Corvette. That legend stops at the Chevrolet showroom door, because other GM divisions have frequently had cars that put out as much power (and in a few instances more) than the Corvette. Nothing can be faster (or have more horsepower) than Corvettes inside Chevrolet's showrooms. As for other GM divisions, it's up to their general managers, the direction they want their division to go, the chassis available, the profit & image potential, and finally convincing GM's product managers.

BTW: these cars were either quicker or packed more horsepower than same year Corvettes:

1987 Buick GNX (way quicker than that years Corvette, even the later ZR1!)
1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am (quicker than that year's Corvette)
1985-1987 Buick Grand Nationals (carried the same horspower ratings as Corvettes of that time)
1977-1979 Pontiac Trans Am T/A 6.6 (same horsepower figures as L82 Corvettes, and typically matched Corvettes acceleration each year).

Prior to the 70s, other GM divisions had engines that match or exceeded Corvette's power output, and since the 80s, the only vehicles capable of having engines that matched Corvettes were B-bodies & F-bodies. Both carried Corvette LT1s (altered for more low end torque and in B-bodies, quieter exhaust systems), and future Camaros carried Corvette's LS1 with lower power ratings because of nothing more than the inability to fit as free an exhaust as Corvette had. LS1 F-bodies still had more torque available at lower RPM ranges though.

Corvettes are quicker simply because they're lighter.

The LS6 was developed especially for Corvette, since there was nothing else to put it in. The LS7 won't be a Corvette only engine after the 1st year. ;)

Originally posted by Snorman
Cobra is listed at 3,665. GTO is listed at 3,761 for M6 cars and 3,774 for A4's. So it's actually more like 100-120lbs. difference.
And how is it going to "easily" accelerate as quickly as the current Cobra? I seriously doubt they'll make the 380-390rwhp needed to do it. Add in the skinny 245/45-17's and IRS and GTO's don't launch any better than '03/'04 Cobras. They suffer from wheelhop just as frequently as Cobras. Going from a 350hp LS1 to a 390hp LS2 isn't going to close the gap enough. [/B]

I read the GTO was 3725lbs. Either way they are pretty damn close. Cobras a dynoing about 405-420HP at the crank, many expect the LS2 to be underrated from about 430HP, if that is the case than it should be a good fight, the only thing keeping the GTO slower will be the 245 all season tires.

Of course the LS2 in the GTO is going to be significantly underrated...this is z28.com! ;)
Until one is on a dyno, I won't buy the rumors and expectations that the LS2 will be underrated in GTO. Any number of sources will verify the weights I posted.
And "405-420" is (not surprisingly) low. At 364rwhp, my car is making ~428hp at the crank. My dyno numbers are about average for an '03, and lower than '04 cars...which are usually in the ~380rwhp range. This is thought to be due to a leaner calibration in the EEC on the '04 cars, while the '03's are pig-rich from ~4500rpm up.
Despite all the guesses, predictions and prognostications, the current GTO is a mid to high-13 second car in the manual version and a high-13 to low-14 second car with an A4. Most barely touch 104mph, and many barely crack 100mph through the traps.
If some think the LS2 is now going to magically put in on equal footing with Cobra, I say...bring it. :D :p
S.

if GM makes the GTO as powerful as the cobra, it will be the better car, thats my opinion.

its up to GM to do it.

Just a word on the LS7. It's going to be a verrry expensive motor. GM spent the bucks to create the "magical" 427 ci displacement for Corvette. Looks like Caddy will have it's fingers on it also, for the next gen CTSv.

By the time we see the next gen Zeta GTO/Camaro, that platform will have an engine available (other than LS7), beyond LS2. Beyond LS2 in performance and displacement.

I guess anything is possible....but the 4th gen had a better chance of getting the LS6, than the GTO will have of getting the LS7.

Any word on the next Camaro getting the 427 LS7 at some time?? :D

Originally posted by Snorman
Of course the LS2 in the GTO is going to be significantly underrated...this is z28.com! ;)
Until one is on a dyno, I won't buy the rumors and expectations that the LS2 will be underrated in GTO. Any number of sources will verify the weights I posted.
And "405-420" is (not surprisingly) low. At 364rwhp, my car is making ~428hp at the crank. My dyno numbers are about average for an '03, and lower than '04 cars...which are usually in the ~380rwhp range. This is thought to be due to a leaner calibration in the EEC on the '04 cars, while the '03's are pig-rich from ~4500rpm up.
Despite all the guesses, predictions and prognostications, the current GTO is a mid to high-13 second car in the manual version and a high-13 to low-14 second car with an A4. Most barely touch 104mph, and many barely crack 100mph through the traps.
If some think the LS2 is now going to magically put in on equal footing with Cobra, I say...bring it. :D :p
S.

Ok, as for the rumors, think of it this way. Better flowing intake/heads/exhaust, larger displacement, higher compression ratio along with, I belive, a bigger cam, then the LS6, and it is somehow making 5hp less then the LS6? I understand your speculation, but really, think about it. Not to mention that the LS2 was first put in the SS concept rated at 420hp.
And the GTo might have run 14 sec in Car and Driver, but there are many GTO's running in the 13.1-13.4 range with autos hitting mid 13's. Now, thats pretty good. Only thing really holding it back are thoes wussy tires. Id love to see at least 255's with a 275 option.
Im sure that with the upcoming GTO getting more performance revisions now that they have more time to develop it, it will be a good 12 sec car, probably on par with the 03/04 Cobras

And its very possible that Pontiac will use the LS7 or something like it for the GTO. Pontiac is going twards a more performance-tuned line up, so expect less cladding, and more hp.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ok, as for the rumors, think of it this way. Better flowing intake/heads/exhaust, larger displacement, higher compression ratio along with, I belive, a bigger cam, then the LS6, and it is somehow making 5hp less then the LS6? I understand your speculation, but really, think about it. Not to mention that the LS2 was first put in the SS concept rated at 420hp.


The LS2 for the '05 Corvette is a sweet motor. The low end torque is much better than the LS1. The cam is not bigger than the LS6. Lift is .525 primarily for idle quality. '02 and up LS6 is .551 intake, .547 exhaust.

Now, for an LS2 powered vehicle where the customer expectation is not "docile" idle? Maybe you catch the drift...

LS2 has the same rev limit as LS6.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ok, as for the rumors, think of it this way. Better flowing intake/heads/exhaust, larger displacement, higher compression ratio along with, I belive, a bigger cam, then the LS6, and it is somehow making 5hp less then the LS6? I understand your speculation, but really, think about it. Not to mention that the LS2 was first put in the SS concept rated at 420hp.
And the GTo might have run 14 sec in Car and Driver, but there are many GTO's running in the 13.1-13.4 range with autos hitting mid 13's. Now, thats pretty good. Only thing really holding it back are thoes wussy tires. Id love to see at least 255's with a 275 option.
Im sure that with the upcoming GTO getting more performance revisions now that they have more time to develop it, it will be a good 12 sec car, probably on par with the 03/04 Cobras


Actually the SS concept was 430HP and 430tq, What many beleive the true LS2 #'s to be.

There is no reason the GTO with an equally powered engine can't be as fast as the Cobra. Weight is so close it shouldn't be a big issue, tires will be the only thing holding the GTO back, maybe they will mod the body so 275s fit.

posted by Big Als Z
but there are many GTO's running in the 13.1-13.4 range with autos hitting mid 13's.Many?!? ROTFLMAO! How about posting links.
There have been two claims of '04 GTO's running quicker than a 13.4 bone stock. Two. One is NikiVee's car...which I personally am still extremely skeptical about. A 1.91 short time on a KDW with 20psi? The other was the SLP car. The 13.1 claim was met by skepticism by everybody. Most M6 GTO's are in the high-13's, but I'll give them to benefit of the doubt. And A4's hitting mid-13's? Find me one, just one bone stock A4 running mid-13's. This is a bogus claim.
Better flowing intake/heads/exhaust, larger displacement, higher compression ratio along with, I belive, a bigger cam, then the LS6, and it is somehow making 5hp less then the LS6? How about counting your chickens after they hatch. This whole discussion is akin to the ones that took place over a year ago, when the '04 GTO was guaranteed to be a GTO killer. Now it's a year later...:D
Im sure that with the upcoming GTO getting more performance revisions now that they have more time to develop it, it will be a good 12 sec car, probably on par with the 03/04 CobrasUh huh. Remember you said this when the LS2 powered '05 M6 is running low-mid 13's at 107-108mph, which is where I think it'll be based on the current car's performance. In general, M6 cars are running 103-105mph. I'd expect them to pick up 3-4mph with the LS2.
And its very possible that Pontiac will use the LS7 or something like it for the GTO. Pontiac is going twards a more performance-tuned line up, so expect less cladding, and more hp.Several people on this forum are saying GTO won't get the LS7, but I guess wishful thinking doesn't hurt.
And there is no cladding on the current car, that's one thing I like. If anything Pontiac might want to make them a bit more aggressive, as most seem to dislike the understated look. Conversely, I think Cobra looks aggressive and ominous.
S.

posted by Z28x
There is no reason the GTO with an equally powered engine can't be as fast as the Cobra. Weight is so close it shouldn't be a big issue, tires will be the only thing holding the GTO back, maybe they will mod the body so 275s fit.I agree. Point being..."with an equally powered engine".
The question is whether GTO will get a 430+hp LS2, which is at least what it would need to be on equal footing with an '03/'04 Cobra (two years later!).
S.

Originally posted by Big Als Z

And its very possible that Pontiac will use the LS7 or something like it for the GTO. Pontiac is going twards a more performance-tuned line up, so expect less cladding, and more hp.

Just out of curiosity....how much would you be willing to pay for a theoretical LS7 GTO?

Originally posted by Snorman
I agree. Point being..."with an equally powered engine".
The question is whether GTO will get a 430+hp LS2, which is at least what it would need to be on equal footing with an '03/'04 Cobra.
S. [/B]

All the info out there is pointing to a LS2 GTO for 2005.

Originally posted by Snorman
...This whole discussion is akin to the ones that took place over a year ago, when the '04 GTO was guaranteed to be a GTO killer. Now it's a year later...:D
,

Uh.... the new GTOs actually do out accelerate the old ones in stock form. ;)

Originally posted by Snorman
I agree. Point being..."with an equally powered engine".
The question is whether GTO will get a 430+hp LS2, which is at least what it would need to be on equal footing with an '03/'04 Cobra (two years later!).
S. [/B]

A Fard boy talking about being late to the horsepower game

:lol: :lol:

posted by guionM
Uh.... the new GTOs actually do out accelerate the old ones in stock form. Oops...meant to say "Cobra-killer". ;)
New GTO does trounce the old ones, even the tri-power 389 cars. :bow:
S.

posted by uluz28
A Fard boy talking about being late to the horsepower game Yeah...but who has been late for the last few years? Hint...it hasn't been Ford. :lol: :cry:
S.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Just out of curiosity....how much would you be willing to pay for a theoretical LS7 GTO?

Ok, I figure that the current GTO sells at 33k, and I dont expect for the car to climb over 20k more, so mid 40's. The GTO is pretty loaded now, and say the 6spd is standard, sounds about right.

Originally posted by Snorman
Yeah...but who has been late for the last few years? Hint...it hasn't been Ford. :lol: :cry:
S. [/B]

Ford finally caught up only when the competition went away. (SVT boys must have been thanking god when they found out that GM wasn't going to build any LS6 Camaros).

Now that competition is coming back in the form of LS2 GTOs and 6.1L Hemi Chargers, Ford making their top of the line 2005 Mustang 300HP :lol:

Speaking of LS6 Camaros, do the ZL1 phase I Camaros outrun 03-04 Cobras?

Id say due to the weight difference, that phase 1 ZL1's could probably stay neck and neck with the Cobras.

Originally posted by Z28x
Ford finally caught up only when the competition went away. (SVT boys must have been thanking god when they found out that GM wasn't going to build any LS6 Camaros).

Now that competition is coming back in the form of LS2 GTOs and 6.1L Hemi Chargers, Ford making their top of the line 2005 Mustang 300HP :lol:

I like your style and most of what you post - regardless of car/model, but dude, you should REALLY go back and read this post again... :no:
Your beloved LS1 F-car was having it's lunch stolen by a Ford pickup well before it went on hiatus.:o

I've said it before, and I'll say it ONE MORE TIME...
If having the fastest production car means it's going to DIE a few years later, then knock yourself out!
I'd MUCH rather that Ford keep the Mustang civil and cheap for the masses, than make it into a compromized land rocket for the sake of a magazine ad that says "It's the fastest from the factory". BIG-DEAL.:blah:
Did you a lot of good once the cars is DEAD, huh?

Design a great platform, onto which the owner can add goodies, mod to his desire, and not need a mortgage to do so. Give it good styling, decent power, and a great basic price - then let the fun (and sales) begin.

I've read this whole thread as it has rolled along, each time thinking "does it matter?" Well honestly, I don't think it does. Just give the public a nice car they can "toy" with and see what goes, hmmm? :)

Originally posted by ProudPony

Your beloved LS1 F-car was having it's lunch stolen by a Ford pickup well before it went on hiatus.:o



It was :confused:

Originally posted by uluz28
It was :confused:

Yup, it was.
That was in reference to "the SVT boys giving thanks" to the deities above for the F-car demise, the L was boasting way over posted LS1 hp before 2002. 385hp in 2002 alone.

Oh, it was clobbering the basic Mustang GT and the 2002 Cobras too. Just don't think I'm picking on the F-cars here. My point was that the SVT boys weren't praying to anybody for anything, except maybe more play money.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Yup, it was.
That was in reference to "the SVT boys giving thanks" to the deities above for the F-car demise, the L was boasting way over posted LS1 hp before 2002. 385hp in 2002 alone.

Oh, it was clobbering the basic Mustang GT and the 2002 Cobras too. Just don't think I'm picking on the F-cars here. My point was that the SVT boys weren't praying to anybody for anything, except maybe more play money.


A stock L will not clobber an LS1 F-body, no matter what you read. With a few mods maybe, but not the way it came from the factory.

Also...there was no 2002 Cobra ;)

Originally posted by ProudPony
Yup, it was.
That was in reference to "the SVT boys giving thanks" to the deities above for the F-car demise, the L was boasting way over posted LS1 hp before 2002. 385hp in 2002 alone.

Oh, it was clobbering the basic Mustang GT and the 2002 Cobras too. Just don't think I'm picking on the F-cars here. My point was that the SVT boys weren't praying to anybody for anything, except maybe more play money.

Ok, are you just talking in terms of HP, or in actual performance specs such as acceleration, 1/4 times etc.? I know the L is one bad-a$$ machine, and does have gobs of power, but I was under the impression that all LS1 F-bodies out accelerated an L based on the L's curb weight and aerodynamics of a brick? If an L does outperform an LS1 F-body, then I'm even more impressed with it.

A stock L will not clober an ls-1 f-car. Maybe give an A4 Ls-1 car a good race (neck and neck), but not clober or beat a well driven 6spd. A buddy of mine has run consistant 13.5's with his, which is badass for a 5,000lb truck.

Ford finally caught up only when the competition went away. (SVT boys must have been thanking god when they found out that GM wasn't going to build any LS6 Camaros).

SVT/Colleti was never afraid to compete. But they were working with one arm tied behind their back throughout most of the last decade. Now that Bill Ford is back in control, he has given SVT a bigger budget and some much needed working room to build the cars they want. This is why we're seeing more powerful cars coming from SVT.

That and i don't think SVT has anything to fear from an Ls-6 camaro. We already know the stock and modified potential of the blown 4.6. As great as the Ls-6 is, i don't think it takes anything away from SVT or the 2003/04 Cobra's;).

Now that competition is coming back in the form of LS2 GTOs and 6.1L Hemi Chargers, Ford making their top of the line 2005 Mustang 300HP

That's the mustang GT, the base performance version. YOU know that. With Ford coming out and saying "they're will be 9 variations of the mustang" i don't see how anyone can think of the GT as "top of the line" or a model that can be compared to the likes of the Ls2 GTO and 6.1L Hemi charger. At best, the GT is an intermediate, even when the top of the line model is on a hiatus. That and i don't think excluding special models and convertibles from production the first year is anything new. Where's the 2005 z06? the 2003/04 Viper GTS coupe?

Somehow, you're trying to make it sound like Ford is trying to shy away from competition just because their special performance models won't be available for another model year:confused:. Pretty far-fetched notion.

Man... some guys just don't get it. :no:

I'm not the one who compared "LS2 GTOs and 6.1L Hemi Chargers" to a "Ford making their top of the line 2005 Mustang 300hp".

I'm the one trying to point out how misaligned it was to think this way. My point was that a truck has more HP stock than the top pony car from the competition. I then said it had more than Ford's competition too. Then I said that SVT guys aren't thanking god for anything GM-given, in fact they just want more play money. So now I'm getting blitzed by vehicle weights and 1/4-mile timeslips... :confused:

If you didn't understand my first post, just forget it.:(

Thanks RiceEating5.0 for the attempt at clarification.
I didn't think all that typing was gonna be necessary or I'd have done it in the first post. NO, actually, if I thought nobody would understand it I wouldn't have posted at all.

man, whatamonday. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by uluz28
Also...there was no 2002 Cobra ;)

Yes, you are right.
Typo.
I've severed my 3rd finger from my right hand in memorial of this event - so it will never happen again!:p

Originally posted by ProudPony
Your beloved LS1 F-car was having it's lunch stolen by a Ford pickup well before it went on hiatus.:o


I wasn't aware that "having your lunch stolen" merely meant another car has more HP than yours on paper.

I assumed, apparently naively (please fogive my ignorance) that the phrase meant you got beat in some sort of performance measure such as a drag race.

(theoretical conversation between me and a Hyabusa owner)
me: Hey, my car can steal your bike's lunch
bike guy: no way, I can blow you off the road
me: No, I only meant I have more rated HP than you.
bike guy: Oh ok, yeah, you're right, your car really "steals my lunch".

Point being, you said it, you were called on it. Revise your statement to more accurately reflect what you meant rather than getting all pissy like people are coming down on you for no good reason.

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
I wasn't aware that "having your lunch stolen" merely meant another car has more HP than yours on paper.

I assumed, apparently niavely (please fogive my ignorance) that the phrase meant you got beat in some sort of performance measure such as a drag race.

(theoretical conversation between me and a Hyabusa owner)
me: Hey, my car can steal your bike's lunch
bike guy: no way, I can blow you off the road
me: No, I only meant I have more rated HP than you.
bike guy: Oh ok, yeah, you're right, your car really "steals my lunch".

Point being, you said it, you were called on it. Revise your statement to more accurately reflect what you meant rather than getting all pissy like people are coming down on you for no good reason.

My interpretation of his statement as well...

Originally posted by uluz28
My interpretation of his statement as well...

Yup, my interpretation as well. That's why I asked in what terms he was speaking about. Hey, if a stock L could clobber an LS1 F-body, then that's a pretty impressive feat considering it's weight and aerodynamics disadavantages. But my post was meant for clarification, and apparently everybody is coming down on him so he gets all pissy.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by ProudPony
I like your style and most of what you post - regardless of car/model, but dude, you should REALLY go back and read this post again... :no:
Your beloved LS1 F-car was having it's lunch stolen by a Ford pickup well before it went on hiatus.:o

I've said it before, and I'll say it ONE MORE TIME...
If having the fastest production car means it's going to DIE a few years later, then knock yourself out!
I'd MUCH rather that Ford keep the Mustang civil and cheap for the masses, than make it into a compromized land rocket for the sake of a magazine ad that says "It's the fastest from the factory". BIG-DEAL.:blah:
Did you a lot of good once the cars is DEAD, huh?

Design a great platform, onto which the owner can add goodies, mod to his desire, and not need a mortgage to do so. Give it good styling, decent power, and a great basic price - then let the fun (and sales) begin.

I've read this whole thread as it has rolled along, each time thinking "does it matter?" Well honestly, I don't think it does. Just give the public a nice car they can "toy" with and see what goes, hmmm? :)


Proud- I usually like what you have to say, but I really have to
disagree with you on this fact. The F-cars did not die because they outperformed the Mustang. Following your logic, the Mustang should have died back in the mid 80s when it outperformed the F-cars. Chevy and Pontiac have always made these cars good performers and that is part of the reason I love them so much. I would much rather start modding a 320hp car
than a 280hp car because I am already 40hp ahead!!

Everybody on this board should know by now that the F-bodies did not die due to sales at all...it was all internal positioning to ditch a pricey, ancient plant.

Originally posted by 3TAS4ME
Proud- I usually like what you have to say, but I really have to
disagree with you on this fact. The F-cars did not die because they outperformed the Mustang. Following your logic, the Mustang should have died back in the mid 80s when it outperformed the F-cars. Chevy and Pontiac have always made these cars good performers and that is part of the reason I love them so much. I would much rather start modding a 320hp car
than a 280hp car because I am already 40hp ahead!!

About the 40hp advantage - I agree 100%. We are both enthusiasts that want all we can get, so the more hp the merrier... at least for you and me. And as an engineer, I am always wanting the manufacturers to deliver "better", be it handling, power, ride, or whatever. So you guys don't read me wrong thinking I want power levels to stagnate - that's not it at all. I just think there's more to a car (and should be recognized as such) than "horsepower".

But again, everyone seems to see the tree in front of them, not the forrest. The HP is just a part of the whole picture here. In addressing your comment, the F4 body itself was VERY MUCH modified to make it sleek, aerodynamic, and great-handling. IMO, some of these characteristics that made the car such a great performer also contributed to it's slower sales because it just wasn't as easy to drive/live with on a daily basis for grocery-getting or kid-hauling.

Your statement above re: "The F-cars did not die because they outperformed the Mustang." is absolutely true, but you have to admit that the F-cars were DEFINITELY designed more with performance in mind and that these compromises affected sales to the "non-enthusiastic" buyer. The engines and 0-60 times probably had little if anything to do with it. But the raked windshield, aerodynamic overhangs, reclined seating, and 4" ground clearance - all things that helped the car outperform the Mustang - definitely did.

When the Mustang was faster than the F-car (marginally at that) back in the '80's, it wasn't giving up daily liveability issues to achieve that speed. It was still a very upright seating, good visibility, easily modded and maintained car - as was the F3, at least more so than the LSx version F4's.


Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
Everybody on this board should know by now that the F-bodies did not die due to sales at all...it was all internal positioning to ditch a pricey, ancient plant.
Right on the money. Not only were there price and salary issues, but the utilization of the plant was way below break-even as I recall. It is definitely a well-known fact that the car was singled out to be killed due to political reasons we may never fully understand - and it was decided years before it happened, so the car was neglected terribly by GM. My comment above was not intended to mean that "performance was the single cause of it's demise", not by any stretch of the imagination. But one has to beleive that sales would have been a little better (despite the neglect) if the cars were more liveable in daily use for the average mom/dad with one kid and a job.

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
I wasn't aware that "having your lunch stolen" merely meant another car has more HP than yours on paper.

I assumed, apparently naively (please fogive my ignorance) that the phrase meant you got beat in some sort of performance measure such as a drag race.
No facetiousness intended here, but you're comment is exactly correct. You assumed what I meant based on your interpretation.

The conversation ongoing was about HORSEPOWER. Look at the next few posts up, and even the one I included in my reply...
"posted by Z28x
Top of the line 2005 Mustang 300HP :lol: "

"posted by uluz28
A Fard boy talking about being late to the horsepower game "

So my response was specifically intended to reflect on HP numbers, not weights, 0-60 times, 1/4-mile times, tire sizes, or anything else. If it had, I would have said so. In my opinion 385 horses is a good bit more than 340, or 325. In the same "humorous" mode as the previous posts, I said the lunch was stolen.



(theoretical conversation between me and a Hyabusa owner)
me: Hey, my car can steal your bike's lunch
bike guy: no way, I can blow you off the road
me: No, I only meant I have more rated HP than you.
bike guy: Oh ok, yeah, you're right, your car really "steals my lunch".
A fair conversation when "blowing one off the road" is the topic or the goal.
If they are going to a dyno... different story.


Point being, you said it, you were called on it. Revise your statement to more accurately reflect what you meant rather than getting all pissy like people are coming down on you for no good reason.
Actually, if you all thought I was refering to 1/4-mile performance, I hate that I was THAT unclear in my wording. If anything, maybe I should have inserted a smiley or two in my post to convey more humor.

But I don't feel like I'm being "called" on anything, and I don't think I need to revise any statements. I don't beleive I was incorrect in stating that the L has more HP than the F-cars.
I hope this serves as "accurately reflecting what I meant".

Pissy? :shock: Me? :o
:D :D :D <--- :indicating MUCH HUMOR, for clarity:

No question sales would have been better if they were more ergonomic and useful.

But, even in their last year, well after advertising had been pulled, they sold a combined 70,000 units. YOu could say that's 35,000 units per car but with SO MUCH similarity its not the same as building two different cars.....the cost structure was probably quite a bit more like selling 70K of 1 car.

For example,that was more than Monte Carlo sales that year...quite a bit more IIRC.

In their heyday, the 4th gens sold over 150K combined units for about 3 years in a row. One can argue that was not during the height of the SUV craze, but still, we can assume that in the last years if ads had not been yanked in order to purposefully kill the car we may have seen 90-110K units/year combined for a platform that was still no more "livable" than when it was selling well.

Here's my tired old take.

The Camaro is boxed in by the vette. Meaning it get's a 400-something HP LS2 max. Not even close to the '06 Cobra. As far as Ford being glad that there was no '03 LS6 Camaro. Who are we kidding? They would have paid money to have an '03 Camaro LS6 to stomp in all the big car rags.

The GTO with LS2 same story. Not even close.

So the question is will the GTO get an LS7? Sure. Why not? Pontiac can easily have a $50K+ showroom car without stepping on anybody's toes.

I hope they do it and fix that trunk problem along the way and step up the styling.

Now back to the thread topic... P L E A S E.

I still would rather see a great basic platform that can be tuned to the owner's desire, with some limited ed's to fill niche markets, rather than see another entire body design slanted too far towards top-end performance at the sacrifice of daily comfort and usefullness.

I'd say the same about Mustang if it were the one under scrutiny. In fact, if the Cobra (or other Mustang version) were going to cause the basic Mustang to suffer in ANY WAY to allow the Cobra to remain "fastest ponycar" from the factory, I'd say let the Cobra take a back seat.

Volume, basic everyday comfort and ease of use are paramount to a car's success these days, and I feel they should get first dibs when dealing with American Legends like Camaro and Mustang. If the carmaker wants a unique low-volume rocket, do it with another body and name that can be killed when the interest dies.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Now back to the thread topic... P L E A S E.

I still would rather see a great basic platform that can be tuned to the owner's desire, with some limited ed's to fill niche markets, rather than see another entire body design slanted too far towards top-end performance at the sacrifice of daily comfort and usefullness.

I'd say the same about Mustang if it were the one under scrutiny. In fact, if the Cobra (or other Mustang version) were going to cause the basic Mustang to suffer in ANY WAY to allow the Cobra to remain "fastest ponycar" from the factory, I'd say let the Cobra take a back seat.

Volume, basic everyday comfort and ease of use are paramount to a car's success these days, and I feel they should get first dibs when dealing with American Legends like Camaro and Mustang. If the carmaker wants a unique low-volume rocket, do it with another body and name that can be killed when the interest dies.

Oh I agree with you on future direction, I'd rather see a car that tries to be a bit more of all-things to all-people than to have an all out HP assault weapon that is doomed to failure because of (perceived?) impracticality.

However, your logic has one flaw.....YOu assume that GM can't pull off a car that is both a hot no-compromises performer AND practical to a degree.

These goals are not one or the other, they exist on a spectrum...its just a matter of where you set the dial to.

Have the actual numbers for the 2006 Cobra been released?

Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
because of (perceived?) impracticality.

However, your logic has one flaw.....YOu assume that GM can't pull off a car that is both a hot no-compromises performer AND practical to a degree.

Perceived impracticality is right. Seriously, 3rd's might have been a little more practical than 4th's, but it's not like 4th's are setup like some kind of exotic. The windshield might be too raked but come on. People really need to get off of that. The hatch alone makes it an easier car to carry more stuff in if people would just take 2 seconds to fold down the seats. And there's really not much more room in a M*stang back seat than a Camaro, if any.

Originally posted by IZ28
Perceived impracticality is right. Seriously, 3rd's might have been a little more practical than 4th's

I know I'm asking for it, and I'll probably regret it, but I have to ask....how? :confused:

Originally posted by ProudPony
I like your style and most of what you post - regardless of car/model, but dude, you should REALLY go back and read this post again... :no:
Your beloved LS1 F-car was having it's lunch stolen by a Ford pickup well before it went on hiatus.:o

I've said it before, and I'll say it ONE MORE TIME...
If having the fastest production car means it's going to DIE a few years later, then knock yourself out!
I'd MUCH rather that Ford keep the Mustang civil and cheap for the masses, than make it into a compromized land rocket for the sake of a magazine ad that says "It's the fastest from the factory". BIG-DEAL.:blah:
Did you a lot of good once the cars is DEAD, huh?

Design a great platform, onto which the owner can add goodies, mod to his desire, and not need a mortgage to do so. Give it good styling, decent power, and a great basic price - then let the fun (and sales) begin.

I've read this whole thread as it has rolled along, each time thinking "does it matter?" Well honestly, I don't think it does. Just give the public a nice car they can "toy" with and see what goes, hmmm? :)

1st) - The F-body didn't die because it had too much HP, remember with both the Camaro and the Mustang, V6 makes up the bulk of the sales.

2nd) - In its last year, after many years of no advertising and almost no upgrades, the F-body still out sold every coupe on the market except the Mustang, It even sold better than the Nissan Titan is doing now and a large number of car that are currently on the road.

3rd) - Yes the lightning did have more HP than the Camaro SS but even though it was the fastest vehical at Ford, it was still slower than the Camaro SS and WS6. I was originally comparing cars vs. cars. (excluding the Vette)

Originally posted by hp_nut
As far as Ford being glad that there was no '03 LS6 Camaro. Who are we kidding? They would have paid money to have an '03 Camaro LS6 to stomp in all the big car rags.

Power to weight...... the Camaro has a 200lbs.+ advantage on the Cobra so even after adding a supercharger the Cobra would have still been behind the equally powered LS6 Camaro. Adding a supercharger and still not being able to beat the Camaro in the 1/4mi., that would have been very embarrassing for Ford.

Originally posted by Schismblade
Speaking of LS6 Camaros, do the ZL1 phase I Camaros outrun 03-04 Cobras?

yes, ZL1 phase 1 is quicker, not only because of the it is lighter, but also due to the 4.11 gears.

True Z28x. :cool:

I know I'm asking for it, and I'll probably regret it, but I have to ask....how?

Too much windshield rake, slightly less room in the front, seat not over the converter thing as much, can't see the hood, etc. Their actual seating position feels lower to me, but that could be just me. The only way 3rd's are more compromised than 4th's is that they're lower overall. (4th's are also bigger and heavier but I don't think that's a compromise, sorta)

Originally posted by IZ28
Too much windshield rake, slightly less room in the front, seat not over the converter thing as much, can't see the hood, etc. Their actual seating position feels lower to me, but that could be just me. The only way 3rd's are more compromised than 4th's is that they're lower overall. (4th's are also bigger and heavier but I don't think that's a compromise)

Well when I think of "practicality" neither the 3rd or 4th Gen really comes to mind...practicality is measured in storage/hauling capacity, number of passengers, gas milage, repair/maintanence costs, things of that nature. *If* the 4th Gen lacks that extra inch or two of leg room in the back seat it really doesn't matter too much does it?...and windsheild rake is not a matter of "practicality" as it is maybe "ergonomics"....but whatever. Continue on.....

Let's also not forget everyone's favorite........engine in the dash. ;)

Did 4th's ever come with an optional rear-axle like 3rd's had with the 9-bolt? (usually with G92) I just wanna know.

Could practicality also come from the lack of headache inducing squeaks and rattles inherent in a 3rd gen? :p

You mean the ones that also show up in 4th Gen's, 2nd Gen's, 1st Gen's, and M*stang's too?! :think: (and many other cars) Not every example of the cars listed do that stuff, but some do. I've been in 3rd's and 4th's without any at all. I've also been in a 1st Gen and current Gen M*stang that definetly did have them. ;) They can be stopped in them all IMO, people just have to track them down, add SFC's, etc.

Originally posted by ProudPony
Now back to the thread topic... P L E A S E.

I still would rather see a great basic platform that can be tuned to the owner's desire, with some limited ed's to fill niche markets, rather than see another entire body design slanted too far towards top-end performance at the sacrifice of daily comfort and usefullness.

I'd say the same about Mustang if it were the one under scrutiny. In fact, if the Cobra (or other Mustang version) were going to cause the basic Mustang to suffer in ANY WAY to allow the Cobra to remain "fastest ponycar" from the factory, I'd say let the Cobra take a back seat.

Volume, basic everyday comfort and ease of use are paramount to a car's success these days, and I feel they should get first dibs when dealing with American Legends like Camaro and Mustang. If the carmaker wants a unique low-volume rocket, do it with another body and name that can be killed when the interest dies.

Pony,
I would not agree here at all with your thoughts. A friendly different idea.....

Lets look closer over the years....

Mustang
1. Mainstream passenger car that is a key part of Ford's line up.
2. Volume is key
3. Everyday coupe with good style.
4. Ford's main convertable
5. Ford's main performance car, filled by GT and up.

Camaro
1. 4 person GT coupe
2. Style and performance are its goals, high performance from Z28
3. One of several performance cars offered by GM (not of late however) but the typically best under the Vette.

While the Mustang and Camaro cross paths in the performance arena, thats about it. The Camaro was never asked to be a key piece in the passenger car lineup. It took the sport coupe slot.

GM has used a wide range of cars to fill the Mustang's slot as a passenger car (read sporty coupe); lets list a few...
1. Grand Ams / Aleros
2. Grand Prix coupes and the Monte Carlo
3. Berettas (sp?)
4. Older novas
5. Monzas

To me, I dont see the Mustang formula as what the Camaro needs....cause it wouldnt be a Camaro then (Pre-70 cars excluded). I'd actually say that GM needs a bowtie coupe in between the Colbalt and the New f-car. THAT car would be the Mustang cross-shopper/sales battle...the Mach1s and the Z28s can go at it on the track.

Wow, really interesting (and true) post. Although I don't know if you could really exclude 1st Gens. Were they not wider, longer, lower, (cowl too?) more raked, and smoother cars than the M*stang? :think:

In what you say a Nova SS would actually be Chevy's real F*rd competitor, but I think the idea was to go against the M*stang with an even more performance designed car instead of just a regular sporty coupe. They made a "sports coupe" instead. Kind of a "real" performance car by design, not a regular car with some performance added.

Originally posted by Eric 98z
GM has used a wide range of cars to fill the Mustang's slot as a passenger car (read sporty coupe); lets list a few...
1. Grand Ams / Aleros
2. Grand Prix coupes and the Monte Carlo
3. Berettas (sp?)
4. Older novas
5. Monzas



What about Falcon, Pinto, Probe, Cougar, Capri, ZX2 and T-Bird coupes?

Originally posted by IZ28
Did 4th's ever come with an optional rear-axle like 3rd's had with the 9-bolt? (usually with G92) I just wanna know.

The Auburn differential was an option on the V8 cars.

Ah OK, I thought I recalled something like that. Was there much of a difference?

Originally posted by IZ28
And there's really not much more room in a M*stang back seat than a Camaro, if any.

Which brings up my biggest concern about the new 05 Mustang...

Has anybody looked at the room between the front of the back seat and the back of the front seat?

At BEST, I've seen no more than 6" so far in any of the cars I 've had in front of me. Not good IMO :no:

Camaros and Mustangs both have always sacrificed those in the rear, but at least make it tolerable back there for a quick run out to lunch or to a local store. 5th gen Camaro could throw a leg-up on the Mustang in this area if done properly - no doubt.

Originally posted by Eric 98z
Pony,
I would not agree here at all with your thoughts. A friendly different idea.....

Lets look closer over the years....

Mustang
1. Mainstream passenger car that is a key part of Ford's line up.
2. Volume is key
3. Everyday coupe with good style.
4. Ford's main convertable
5. Ford's main performance car, filled by GT and up.

Camaro
1. 4 person GT coupe
2. Style and performance are its goals, high performance from Z28
3. One of several performance cars offered by GM (not of late however) but the typically best under the Vette.

While the Mustang and Camaro cross paths in the performance arena, thats about it. The Camaro was never asked to be a key piece in the passenger car lineup. It took the sport coupe slot.

GM has used a wide range of cars to fill the Mustang's slot as a passenger car (read sporty coupe); lets list a few...
1. Grand Ams / Aleros
2. Grand Prix coupes and the Monte Carlo
3. Berettas (sp?)
4. Older novas
5. Monzas

To me, I dont see the Mustang formula as what the Camaro needs....cause it wouldnt be a Camaro then (Pre-70 cars excluded). I'd actually say that GM needs a bowtie coupe in between the Colbalt and the New f-car. THAT car would be the Mustang cross-shopper/sales battle...the Mach1s and the Z28s can go at it on the track.

Your position is respectfully accepted! :thumb:
Opinions are subjective - nice job of stating yours with meaning and support.

On my side of the fence, I see the Camaro purely as Mustang's stablemate. They have been aimed at each other since the Camaro's inception in 1967. That's a 35-year kinship that survived many a threat and outlived all other ponycars. I don't see how we can stand here now and say - "One formula doesn't apply to the other."

To millions of people, Camaro and Mustang go together like hot dogs and fries, or steak and potato. The formulas are not only there, they are now etched in stone... 2-door, sporty, low-cost, basic no-frills cars, with optional V8's and elevated performance. That epitomizes Camaro and Mustang.

The only difference in the two is the way they have been managed by their companies. Through the years, Mustang has been more economical and passive on average - at least IMO. It offered more I6, I4, and V6 engines than Camaro, and sold more sub-V8 units too. In '74, there wasn't even a V8 offered. So it has "averaged" a less-performing position overall, but it has offered some real super-performing versions along the way. Camaro on the other hand has always offered a more aggressive package on average - even the base cars, imo. During many years, the Camaro didn't offer anything BUT V8's, right? And even the 6's were fairly stout - especially the 3.8 F4-versions. So where was the basic bean-counting transportation buyer going to go?

I maintain Ford took one on the chin in the '80's by going with their unique plan to offer a good basic V8, and encourage the buyer to mod. Ford didn't want to offer the Mustang as the king of the hill in stock trim, but give you the means to get there if it meant that much to you. It was a hard pill of humility to swallow for Ford's loyal crowd, who wanted to say "Mustang is fastest!", but the taste of the pill was enough to spur many to do just what Ford wanted... buy aftermarket parts. The result is a car on the lot for a low price that attracts many more buyers, a car that has a HUGE aftermarket that allows endless performance, personalization, and uniqueness, and a cult-like following. So taking one on the chin ultimately led to the car's vibrant health today - a good trade looking back on it.

Likewise, I think the same business model is alive and thriving today. Just look at the time and money spent modifying cars... from rice to ponycars and even trucks and SUVs. The secret to a successful car is giving it options, and supporting the aftermarket for it. I say Camaro could come right back in with a "Mustang formula" and sell a boat-load well into the future, if executed correctly, with the buyers as active designers, factory-supported aftermarket, and related activities.

So, I respectfully submit to you that in my opinion, the Mustang and Camaro have been stablemates since the Camaro was introduced, and despite having their own unique variations through the years, they should remain so.

If the next "Camaro" is not a competitor to the Mustang at the basic levels, then it shouldn't be called a Camaro IMO. DEFINITELY build the car, but please call it something else. Don't drag the Camaro name out of history and "stick it" on a different car like they did the GTO recently.

Who's to say that the base Camaro can't compete with the base Mustang sales-wise, let the SS compete with the GT, and remove all Camaro nameplates from the top dog version and give it Z/28 badging like the Ford does to the Cobra - kind of it's own "little" low-volume model. Come out with unique designations like SS/RT or SS350 for an occasional limited-edition car to peak interest and go after Mach 1-type cars with.
I think it CAN be done, and I'd d@mn-sure rather see it done by Chevy with a Camaro than by some new "Chevy something", a Dodge Charger (maybe not so bad) or worse yet Nissan with a 350Z, or a G35, or an Eclipse... :no:

Originally posted by IZ28
In what you say a Nova SS would actually be Chevy's real F*rd competitor, but I think the idea was to go against the M*stang with an even more performance designed car instead of just a regular sporty coupe. They made a "sports coupe" instead. Kind of a "real" performance car by design, not a regular car with some performance added.

There is some wisdom in what you state. Performance minded folks exclude the big picture, which is fine. I think if you were to see what folks shop against what would suprise you.

Consider this.

See a Ford domestic line dealer and shop a car you can choose Focus, Mustang, Crown Vic, Thunderbird, Town Car, Sable, Grand Marquis. The Mustang HAS to cover a wide range of tastes to contribute to market share for the parent company.

A visit to a GM domestic line dealer would be Cavalier, Monte Carlo, Impala, Malibu, Corvette, Alero, Sunfire, GrandAM, GTO, Grand Prix, Bonneville, Century, Regal, LaSabre, Park Avenue, CTS, Deville, Seville, XLR.

My understanding is Bill Ford wants SVT to move upmarket. This may well mean "Up"money... at least it usually does. Higher horsepower can bring punitive premiums to customers, especially if the actuarial evidence point to the kind of folks that go for a kind of vehicle are likely to be involved in more claims. Corvettes, for instance, can be cheaper to insure than lesser priced performance cars due to the likelyhood of claims. Insurance issue do figure into car sales. A buyer stretching to make the payment is blown out of the market if the insurance premium makes the purchase unaffordable. Some insurance companies are putting disclaimers into policies now which exclude coverage for "spontaneous" competitive events.... translated to mean "street racing". Most folks know a track incident is an "on your own" deal. Most folks should actually read their policy to know where else they may be "on their own".

Insurance prices were a big issue in the last era of muscle... don't think for a moment that the party can last forever unnoticed when money is involved. Thank goodness that the anti-SUV rhetoric is keeping the heat off high performance. We'll see how long it lasts. Hopefully forever.

We shall see what Ford does when SVT comes back into the Mustang. Where it will be powerwise, and how affordable it might be for wide sales and what demographic it will try to capture.

What is required is the car that delivers more performance, not the highest HP number. Power to weight, not merely power.

Originally posted by ProudPony


So, I respectfully submit to you that in my opinion, the Mustang and Camaro have been stablemates since the Camaro was introduced, and despite having their own unique variations through the years, they should remain so.



I'm with you on that Proud.
Certainly, the Camaro and Mustang compete with other cars....other than themselves. But Camaro's competitive center of mass is Mustang. It was, in September 1966...when the first Camaro rolled off the assembly line, and it will be when the next gen car comes too.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I'm with you on that Proud.
Certainly, the Camaro and Mustang compete with other cars....other than themselves. But Camaro's competitive center of mass is Mustang. It was, in September 1966...when the first Camaro rolled off the assembly line, and it will be when the next gen car comes too.

A V8 powered sport coupe at Chevy should compete with the mid-high performance end of the Mustang, not the lower end. A less compromised car would be the result and one might be able to concentrate on power to weight and handling dynamics.

YTD car sales for GM are @ 609,753. Ford, IOW LM and the rest are @ 367,599 for the same period. Niche vehicles don't have to be everything for everyone deals. Just good business cases.

Perhaps fill the gaps in product that exist. Value priced rear wheel drive V-8 performance between $25K-$35K...

Originally posted by ProudPony

On my side of the fence, I see the Camaro purely as Mustang's stablemate. They have been aimed at each other since the Camaro's inception in 1967. That's a 35-year kinship that survived many a threat and outlived all other ponycars. I don't see how we can stand here now and say - "One formula doesn't apply to the other."




I guess you're saying these two are brothers...I am kinda saying they are more like cousins, maybe even 2nd cousins. :)

A better analogy would be that a Mustang is a swiss army knife, capible of many things. The GM response is(has been) more of a series of more specialized tools vs the all in one.

Also, I find it somewhat ironic that the new mustang seems to be moving toward a more specialized mission...while our new camaro may be more general it it's.

I've owned both BTW and liked both but it is a different flavor for each car......I doubt many share this line of thinking so thanks for listening.