Building a Ricer Stomper. Any Ideas?

If this is not the correct location for this thread, please excuse me for I am a newbi here and feel free to forward this to the right location........

That said: I want to build an all out Import Killer (road racer style not drags) and I'm considering using a 4th generation Camaro. While I don't want to break the bank I am looking at a budget of around $40-50K.

Things that are of first concern are:
a) How light can you get an F-body chassis down to? I've heard of the Pro-Road racing teams acid dipping there tubs before they put the rollcages in. I plan on only running 2 seats and a sparse racing style interior. As an example: a tricked out Nissan 240SX can weigh as little as 2300 LBS while using a 500HP turbo engine.
b) I understand the last year cars suffered from chassis flex when you put in a big motor. Besides the obvious of putting a full gage in the tub, what other weight saving stiffening items would you recommend? FYI: I plan on having an all Aluminum 350ci-plus stroker motor built that will make over 500LBS of torque.
c) What kind of weight distribution do they have? If not 50% front/50% rear, is there room at the firewall to move the engine back a few inches? Is there any other ideas that would improve the front to rear weight issue?
d) Does anybody make Carbon Fiber/Light weight fenders/hoods/doors etc. for these cars?
e) You've all seen the "racing/German Touring Car Series" look of the Ricer cars. To beat them at their own game, I want that look as well, i.e., Pulled fenders, nose splitter, rear wing, rear defuser, etc., Any ideas who makes this kind of stuff?
f) I want this thing to have the basic look of a Trans-AM Series race car. What kind of Suspension mods would have to be done to get it down that low and still have a functional suspension travel?
g) I've thought of starting out with an Ex-Grand AM Cup or A-Sedan race car since a professionally built one should have a lot of the desirable mods already done. However the car obviously would have already had a very hard life..........

I know this is a lot of questions, but I've been "google searching" for days and I'm coming up with blanks. I would appriciate any and all help with any one or all of these questions. Thanks you for your time and or referal to other note worthy sites....

wow, big post, and its obvious your VERY new to the Fbody.

A) NEVER down to 2300 lbs, you can get it to about 2900 maybe the way your describe it... but then a cage you add some....

B) With a cage.. jsut get SFC (sub frame connectors, you'll want the double diamond ones)

C) You have never looked un the hood of one of these cars have you? theres hardly enough room to pass a fart between the firewall and engine.
but its almost kinda close, with lightwieght front parts, like tubular K member, upper and lower control arms (chome moly of course) you could get pretty close.

D) fenders weigh all of 5lbs as they are, the car is plastic and fiberglass, the only metal body is hood and rear fenders, you can get composit hoods that wieght about 40lbs ish is think.

E) Custom for the most part. front... well the camaro has a "splitter started, a good fiberglass man could do some real nice stuff with what he has, even though the bumper is plastic.
pulled fenders??? you mean a wide body? I dont really think you need that with an fbody.
rear wing... theres a couple, the SS spoiler works and still looks good, past that you're on your own
defuser... I guess you could use the vette one

F) eiback pro kit, and koni DA all around.

G) use this forums search button



for engine you say all auminum 350 stroked and gettign 500 ft lbs....
umm do some more searches, what your looking for is the LS1, and 500 ft lbs is childs play.
a 383 (stroked 350) with good heads and nice cam will make 600 and 600 easy, I would shoot for more like 700 and 700.
this eninge will take 20k of your budget easy.

for a road race car it will do very well, the bmw's and the like will only catch in corners.... maybe.
not to mention a rolling chaisis Fbody is like 1500 bucks or less.

Xride, You are awesome. Thanks for all the good info!

>>its obvious your VERY new to the Fbody
LOL, That's absolutly true. I new that you and others like you were out there at that you would help me see it straight. I just ran out of ideas where to look.

>>A) NEVER down to 2300 lbs, you can get it to about 2900 maybe the way your describe it...
I was afraid of that. Success for this project will have a lot to do with how light I can get this car. Any tubing I add will be of chrome moly or other light metal. Back when I was autocrossing, there was a guy that ran a Lotus Elan with an all aluminum gage in it. Obviously he used it as a chassis stiffener more than a "roll bar", but he only autocrossed it and it was very effective. I'm thinking of maybe doing something similar since I can't see much chance of this thing get'n on its lid.........

>>B) With a cage.. jsut get SFC (sub frame connectors, you'll want the double diamond ones)
Not familiar with "double diamond ones". Can you refer me to a manufacturer for example?

>>C) Never looked under the hood of one of these cars? theres hardly room to pass a fart between the firewall and engine.
True. I've yet to buy a tub. If I'm going to rid the car of unnecessary creature comforts, perhaps I can partially re-fabricate the firewall to move the motor back. BUT, before all of that, remembering that I would only go through that much trouble if I absolutely had to help get the 50/50 weight distribution, is it at all necessary. What is a stock car's distribution?

>>E) Custom for the most part. front... well the camaro has a "splitter started, a good fiberglass man could do some real nice stuff with what he has, even though the bumper is plastic.
pulled fenders??? you mean a wide body? I dont really think you need that with an fbody.
The "look" I'm wanting is more like the "over the top, Trans-AM Racing Series Camaro". I want to use a semi-stock unibody, but from the outside I want it to look more like a full blown road race car. The splitter I'm picturing is similar to what you see on the European Touring Cars. I want people to be scared when they see this thing roll up........

>>for engine you say all auminum 350 stroked and gettign 500 ft lbs....
umm do some more searches, what your looking for is the LS1, and 500 ft lbs is childs play.
a 383 (stroked 350) with good heads and nice cam will make 600 and 600 easy, I would shoot for more like 700 and 700.
this eninge will take 20k of your budget easy.
The engine will be the easiest part of this project. Anything in the range that you mentioned will be enough. I want it stone-reliable so I will use all the best parts and I've got an awesome motor-man. The reason I'm looking at the F-body is because I knew I could get the motor to make big enough numbers to wearout the turbo-4&6cyl. crowd. And I figured this is the best handling "late model American sedan" available. Wouldn't you agree?

>>for a road race car it will do very well, the bmw's and the like will only catch in corners.... maybe.
I actually considered a 3-series BMW. However, I'd prefer an American car and I want massive (naturally aspirated) torque to get up off the corners. I've driven a few Vipers and I'd really like to be able to hang with my buddies "Competition Coupe" coming off the bottom and yet still have a light nimble enough car to battle the Ricers on entry and corner speed...........

>>not to mention a rolling chaisis Fbody is like 1500 bucks or less.
Even for the latest body style? AutoTrader or salvage yard? What about the existing A-Sedan route?

BTW,
Does anybody know where I can find out what the Wheelbase and tread width of a stock chassis is.

Thanks again!

Originally posted by DV19

Does anybody know where I can find out what the Wheelbase and tread width of a stock chassis is.

Thanks again!

wheelbase is 101.1"
tread width depends on the model, but 275 40R 17 came on the SS's and WS6, and others.
overall width is 74.1" though.




I've got a 1LE SS, so its one of hte lighter stock ones, and it weighs in at 3300 and weight distribution is 1850 and rear 1450
I think thats what it was.
That said the rear stay planted unless I dont want it to. and not many cars will follow into the corners.


these are double diamond SFC's
http://www.fasttoys.net/kbsfc.jpg

I like the SLP ones more, but dont have a picture of htem.

The splitter you want will be custom, or a modified one from another car.

add weight to the rear to get the 50/50 ;) you should be able to get it pretty close.

The engine will alow you to explode out of hte corners. so even if your entrance speed isnt as high your exit is much faster.

The brakes will be an other area that will be upgraded, but I'm sure you were going to do that anyways.

the 4th gen fbody (93+) is pretty cheap, if you watch the forsale here there are rolling chasis' for sale every now and then, usually 500 to 1500, depending on how much of the suspention is there and overall condition. you could also get a non runner from the auto trader or something, or even a running car for about 5k, jsut look the forsale forum here.
I dont know about an exisisting A sedan car... I have no idea.



to show how good the Fbody is, http://moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2003/stockc.html
you can see that hte SS and WS6 are in the B stock..... and htey are stock, they jsut have the "more" performance suspension, but even that leaves alot to desire.

If you're actually going to race this car, an aluminum cage isn't going to be legal for anything that I know of. If you're looking for a cheap jump-start here, I'd buy an already-built f-body race car (I've got a good lead if you want it) and start there. Get out on the track and see how you do against all these imports, if you're a good driver I bet you'll realize you're already in front of all the ones you're concerned about. :)

Dave

Yes I might be interested in a tub that's already had some things done to it as long as it's the lastest body style. Please -mail me the info and specs if you know them.

Thanks

this was probably obvious, but just in case: your definetly going to want a strut tower brace to go along with your subframe connectors.

JoeliusZ28: Yes I had that on the list Thanks!

BTW, Taking into consideration of the pre-mentioned posts. What year/model would be the best cantidate, besides any 4th gen w/manual trans? Remember engine, brakes and suspension will all be upgraded in some way. Are any of the tubs lighter/stiffer or is that part all the same? Xride mentioned his 1LE SS is pretty light. Is that "the lightest" tub? would it matter if I started with a 6-cyl car? it would probably be cheaper to buy to begin with?

Thanks

the 1LE cars are lighter due to having the fewest options... i don't think there is anything lighter about the frame or body. since you are planning on stripping the car and upgrading all the susp and brakes..the 1LE wouldn't really gain you much.

kindda like buying a car for it's color...just so you can strip it and repaint it another color.


and i would think you may as well start with a V8 car....that way you already have the t56 trans, a block and all the mounting hardware

<<and i would think you may as well start with a V8 car....that way you already have the t56 trans, a block and all the mounting hardware

teke184:

Thanks for the thoughts. Should this deal come together I would upgrade the tranny to a racing style (Jerico or T101). That way not only would it be stronger, quicker shifting and then I have an infinite choice in gear ratios available.
As for the block I'll use an aluminum-race version for the weight savings and the oiling system. The mounting hardware might be useful however, I'd probably change the mounts to try and improve the chassis weight distribution (see above posts).

I'd say a "rolling chassis" (but of the right model) will be the best way to go. No sence in spending $$$ for things you don't need.......... I just don't know enough about these cars to know which model to go searching for. Hence the questions......

Originally posted by DV19

I'd say a "rolling chassis" (but of the right model) will be the best way to go. No sence in spending $$$ for things you don't need.......... I just don't know enough about these cars to know which model to go searching for. Hence the questions......

any rolling chasis will work, seems like thats all thats not going ot be replaced.

but any 4th gen Fbody, with V8 if you want.

Great. Thanks for the tip............

About the model years... you should be fine with any year. However I would avoid 93s... weaker and different ratio tranny, and bunch of other stuff under the hood I cant remember.

Originally posted by JoeliusZ28
About the model years... you should be fine with any year. However I would avoid 93s... weaker and different ratio tranny, and bunch of other stuff under the hood I cant remember.

hes not using anything stock pretty much.

Originally posted by Xride
hes not using anything stock pretty much.

Xride is correct. My main needs are as current body style as possible, lightest weight and Manual trans (for the pedals & clutch assembly)

Thanks

You could just get a '93 rolling chassis and get the 98+ fascia/hood/taillights etc and have a good LS1 body for about $2500-$3000. That's the route I'd go.

A good Jericho or G-Force transmission will work real well. Might want to take a look @ Tremac's T56 too. I looked at one this weekend @ World Ford Challenge and it's pretty stout. :D

With the weight question, I think if you REALLY tried, you could get these cars down to 2700 w/o driver. You'd have to spend a LOT of $$$ to do it. Chromoly cage, chromoly (aluminum where an option) suspension components, stripped interior, aluminum block/heads (either LSx or aftermarket), fabricated 9", Lexan glass, etc. If it's a track car, you can pull the door supports & crash protection stuff in the front/back of the car too.

As for lightweight body panels, all but the hood and rear quarter on these cars is urethane. The hood is easily fixed, but the rear quarters should stay metal to retain structural integrity. There's a reason why they were made in steel. :)

I would talk to LG Motorsports and Unbalanced Engineering about your plans since both are big into road racing/autoX. For body panels & hood, I would get ahold of VFN Fiberglass up by Chicago. I know they've done carbon fiber work before and may be able to do some one-off parts for you.

Best of luck.

As for springs, I would go with Ground Control with ERS (Eibach Race Springs) straight rate springs. The Pro-Kit springs are not the best to go with in this department.

17x11 wheels can be used all the way around on these cars with no to very minimal modifications, such as rolling the inner rear lip on the fender, and banging back a small metal lip in the front wheel well. ZR1/Grand Sport wheels are very commonly used for racing due to their availability/cost/bolt right on. Tire sizes used are usually 315/35 R17 or 335/35 R17 in rear.

The 94-97 M6 was a Borg-Warner T56 transmission, and is supposed to be the strongest from the 4th gen F-body. The 98-02 M6 is also a T56, but is a Tremec transmission, and is supposedly a little weaker. However, there are a few places that can really beef these transmissions up even further to handle the power you need if you choose to go that route.

Also if you go the LS1/LS6 route, you can stroke it out to I believe a 428 ci motor using the C5R block and 4.125 sleeves. That would make your reliability and power goal even easier.

I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I feel as though the LT1 body style F-bodies (93-97) seem to have a more aerodynamic front end to them than the LS1 style (98-02). However if you use a LSx motor with the LT1 style front, you would need a taller hood to clear the motor, also easily done.

I would check out www.frrax.com/rrforum/ for the best road race info on these cars. There are a lot of experienced road racers on there and is probably your best source of info into this venture.

Good luck!

Are you serious...? YOu could accomplish this goal with the installment of only a K&N filter...

mongse_1:
Thanks for the tips..... I did talk to a freind the other night who races a Firebird in AI. He said the weakest link in his car is the T56. Not sure which model. He claims to always have syncro problems....... I'm not sure he all that good of a down-shifter though......... ;) He also agreed with you on the weight issue.... Unfortunatly, I guess they're just a "big car".........

kgkern01:
Thanks for the frrax lead and the other good info.

I would check out www.frrax.com/rrforum/ for the best road race info on these cars. There are a lot of experienced road racers on there and is probably your best source of info into this venture.


This is a good site for info. It's not real busy though...... Guess the guys are to busy build'n instead of type'n like I've been lately......... Thanks again

you might want to check out some IROC series cars(the TA's), you will get some good info on weight, suspension, and aero mods from them:thumb:

Originally posted by LT1Squirrel
you might want to check out some IROC series cars(the TA's), you will get some good info on weight, suspension, and aero mods from them:thumb:

Thanks for the thought, but the IROC cars are "Stock Cars" (like Tony Stewart drives) that are only designed to turn left.....

My suggestion is go buy one already built. You don't want to attempt a project like this with no clue what to do. You'll be getting in way over your head. There are plenty of already setup race cars for sell. I'm looking at a bunch of them in the last couple of issues of SportsCar from the SCCA.

And yes, our forum is VERY busy...

Originally posted by bruecksteve
My suggestion is go buy one already built. There are plenty of already setup race cars for sell. I'm looking at a bunch of them in the last couple of issues of SportsCar from the SCCA.

Are there any of them on the web you can send me to?

Good News: Just sold one of my vehicles so now it's time to find something to buy. If anybody's got a lead on one, please hook me up. From reading this post, you've got a good idea of the kind of car I'm looking for......

Thanks for the help