adj. panhard rod recommendations?

need to recenter my rear end after lowering. i don't do any auto-xing. but i do want a good quality APHR. what are your recommendations?

thanks.

I like BMR products and have one on my car.

hotchkis

and on more of a budget the ones like tbyrne's remarked ones are fine too.

http://www.tbyrnemotorsports.com/lt1catalog.html


(yes I like tbyrne, and have had two great experiances with them)

I'd trust this more than the above. http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/PHR/

I use the Lakewood adjustable bar, no problems thus far.

Originally posted by Shempy
I'd trust this more than the above. http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/PHR/

why? casue its has solid rod ends? they can all come like that. and if your running a street car they arent the nicest all the time.

I've never seen a stock panhard break even, so saying BMR or anyone else is "untrust worthy" just begs the question why?

I had a poly end BMR PHB break and it wasn't pretty. A lot of damage to tires. Fortunately, I was only going about 40mph at the time.

When I posted up my experience, I was hammered ... till others began posting similar results, with both poly and rod end BMR parts.

One guy posted that he had snapped set of "extremes" while turning into a Wendy's parking lot.

BMR is good for making a nifty signature on the internet. Other than that ...

Also, ask the vendor what size ends they use. The cheaper one use a 5/8" thread. The more expensive ones use a 3/4" thread. A lot more strength at the most vulnerable spot.

JMHO ... YVMV

Originally posted by mitchntx
I had a poly end BMR PHB break and it wasn't pretty. A lot of damage to tires. Fortunately, I was only going about 40mph at the time.


please share this experiance with me. where did it break?
the welds on mine look awsome. and cant see anywhere else breaking?

Agreed, share.

The only place I could think of is the threads being yanked out? I would think that would happen before the end welds would give. BMR is known for their welding prowess, and all my BMR parts are good so far. As mentioned already my PHR is lakewood, I don't know off hand what size the end (thread) is.

Originally posted by Bone Daddy
Agreed, share.

The only place I could think of is the threads being yanked out? I would think that would happen before the end welds would give. BMR is known for their welding prowess, and all my BMR parts are good so far. As mentioned already my PHR is lakewood, I don't know off hand what size the end (thread) is.

ya thats what I was thinking, the threads look pretty beefy on mine...

but now I'm worried about mine...

i believe mitch is referring to this:

click here (http://69.56.235.42/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374871)

forgive me for being so bold, but i don't see how a handful of auto-xers breaking this piece qualifies all BMR stuff as crap. i have yet to hear of a non-auto-xer having the same failure. and that guy in the impala turning into a Wendy's, i believe what he broke was a lower control arm, not the PHR. click here to read about the impala breaking the lower control arm (http://www.impalassforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002643)

how many BMR PHR's are out there, installed on cars? i'd imagine quite a few. and from 3 or 4 auto-xers having the piece fail......

sorry mitch, not trying to downplay your experience, but i don't follow the logic of proclaiming BMR parts garbage.

BTW, thanks for all the input. i'm actually leaning towards the BMR piece right now for budget constraints. plus, the BMR gets some pretty solid reviews from most people. what about slotcarracing stuff? they have some pretty good prices, but is their stuff any good?

Well I read the whole thread, and half the other threads, and several linking threads.
From what I can tell is lots of people the beat on there cars very hard have been having a problem with a bushing wearing out from abuse, and of couse LG was fine, but is that only cause no one has poly bushings unless its on a BMR product...???


All I came out from it is I for some reason want rod ends on my PHB and LCAs now.... ??? and an odd desire for pancakes...???

Originally posted by camaro322hp

how many BMR PHR's are out there, installed on cars? i'd imagine quite a few. and from 3 or 4 auto-xers having the piece fail......

Incidentally, I believe most were more oriented toward open track driving. Either way, if a piece has had issues under real stress, I wouldn't want it on my car. While the odds are it won't break, why buy it when there are other options?

The Unbalanced Engineering unit is actually $5 cheaper than BMR for the dual rod end version and just $25 from BMR's poly version. Is $25 that much for a better PHR? Further, the UE piece adjusts at the ends. There are others who question the sense of having a rod that's adjustable in the middle like the BMR. While I've not seen proof that this is indeed a negative, I still think I'd prefer the solid tube there rather than the adjustable portion since the bar would flex in the middle the most.

Just my opinion.

I appreciate all of your points of view. And the decisions we all make are based upon information we have at hand.

2 points ... don't be fooled into thinking that AX or OT duty is that much harder on parts. Typically, there aren't potholes, curbs, gutters or debris to hit on a course.

And, F-Stock cars HAVE to run STOCK components like LCAs and PHBs. I've never heard of a stock unit disintegrating like the BMR stuff did. I've seen them bend, but never just break. One would think the aftermarket would be at least as strong as stock, wouldn't you?

Again ... JMHO ... YVMV

There still are other things we dont know, like conditions inside the bushings, care for the part, etc.

I personally wont put rod end LCA's or a Panhard onto my car. I just use it for more daily use, and a worn Rod End makes a horrible racket. With the dirt on NY roads I just dont want to have to clean those things on a regular basis. If you dont clean rod ends they will degrade rather quickly, teflon or not...

Rod ends are great. They really are. But if you look at the way the stock suspension was designed to work, adding the ability to rotate fully was not part of the equation. Technically if you look at a set of Rod End LCA's, then you took the shocks and springs off, dropped the axle 6" with the car jacked up - and then pushed very hard on the driver's side forward while lifting on the passenger side, it would would go. The lower control arms are not meant to pivot laterally. They are designed to absorb the force of the axle attempting to rotate straight into the chassis and nothing else.

Then we have the panhard rod in the lateral direction. These components were designed to take on forces in one direction only. Not multiples. If you loaded one end of the axle farther forward then the other somehow by fluke and it was enough to push the axle farther out and around on one side of the car, you'd be asking for huge problems. With all these rod bearings in your components, you'd now be adding lateral stress to not only all your components, but to the mounts for your suspension and your LCA's! They arent horrible, and are infact a great idea. But there's a reason some of BMR's parts are "race only". They dont have potholes on a Road Course - and a pothole dropping a wheel and getting it shoved to the side and hard instantly is a lot of force to have to absorb at 75mph... I'd prefer that each part of the suspension does it's part the way it was meant to. Engineers designed your suspension the way they wanted it to work, and then it was tested to perform like it should.

Also look at the stock piece. It's stamped steel. It'll bend easy. That's what it was designed to be able to do.

Look at some of the BMR components. They are strong. VERY strong. Look at the material strengths. But also dont forget that some of the components are then Chromoly. It's very very strong, but also more brittle. That's why you'd see them BREAK as opposed to just bending in half.

But ask yourself, would you rather your panhard rod bend in half after a retardly heavy launch, or have your panhard rod break? Either way you're in a lot of trouble and a lot of damage.

And our certified professional welders where I work took a look at all my BMR products when they came in... They found the parts to be very well built and welds that were of amazing quality and consistency. These are the sort of welders that are making $40/hr or more - and they think the welds are good.

And the rule always says - the more you f*ck with, the more that gets f*cked up. You mod your car and drive it very hard - stuff WILL break. If you cant accept that- dont mod your car.

A 93' Camaro Z28 was never meant to have more then 275hp and run faster then maybe 13.00 in the 1/4 mile from the factory. There are guys pushing 9's in 600+HP. The car and every component on it was not meant to be able to do that, and just because the car doesnt bend in half when you make that pass says something impressive.

maybe i'll just leave my rear off-center....:D

Geoff, interesting read. I see your points about offset loading of the parts and the mounts. And, I agree 100%.

Consider this for a moment ...

Lateral or offset loading of the LCAs can't occur if the PHB is properly attached and located. Likewise, lateral or offset loading of the PHB can't occur if the LCAs are properly attached and located. Each of the 3 components work as a unit.

The only variant is, during up and down motion of the diff, the design of the PHB has the PHB outer locating mount (on the diff) moving in a slight arc, rotating around the inner PHB mount (on the chassis). This will cause some lateral movement of the diff, about a 1/4" over a 3" suspension load from static. A lowered car would be less because the PHB is more parallel to the diff than a non-lowered car.

In theory, though, the only way lateral loading in either case could occur is if the locating part breaks or bushings deflect. I hope we can both agree that rod ends will allow zero deflection.

I also understand your fear of rod ends and their required maintenance and potential wear. For a daily driver, I would highly recommend staying with the stock parts. I have close to 20K miles on my LGM rod end LCAs. They certainly outlived the BMR poly ends. And I'm very meticulous about maintenance. Nothing scares me more than having a maintenance related failure occur at 130mph on the front stretch at Texas World Speedway. And after my failure, welds are now inspected on loaded parts.

Your example of chassis articulation is a valid one. However, a sherical bearing will allow the end to rotate close to 30* on each end before the bearing housing contacts the chassis mount. Obviously a bushing cannot do that without significant bind. So, with a rod end, there is no twist of the LCA until that point, which is way beyond the travel limits of the rear suspension.

As far as the "quality" of the welds, I certainly hope that my experiences with BMR products, and those who posted in the links referenced above, made BMR step up their weld QC. Almost all of the BMR parts I've seen broken are at a weld.

Good thread ....

JMHO ... YVMV

Your points are also valid, and yes we can easily agree that the Rod Ends suffer from no deflection. I did some looking around online after my last reply and took a gander at the rod-end parts for sale. I notice none of them seem to have a boot available for a rod end part. That would be a nice addition for a few bucks- I think anyone can agree.

And yes the lower control arms, axle, panhard rod, shocks, springs etc. All do work together as a unit, and infact very well as we all know. I am not using stock components in numerous places - I'm even using a BMR K-member and matching upper and lower A-arms. I know they bend and break. Infact, if that happens I honestly wont be that suprised. I also avoid potholes and city streets like a madman. If I cant find a decent adjustable panhard rod that I like (as I too have a slight issue with BMR's center adjustment panhard, just for my own sake) I might be forced into Rod Ends - but I will certainly boot those buggers as best I can.

On the track, rod ends can and will perform much better. When properly adjusted, the suspension will work much better with them. However that is still track use. I will agree that the bind on the bushing is rather annoying across the board, and I will agree a Rod End has more movement before contact. However the Rod End in some form of "failure" or "improper adjustment" will allow the suspension to move freely. The bind on the bushing will resist movement. Bend/break your panhard rod and then just move the whole axle side to side. If you have bushings, the bushings will bind and resist lateral movement.

When I move to VA where the weather is warmer, the women less covered, and the roads in better shape, you can bet the Rod Ends will go on in a heartbeat. But till that day the bushings will suffice, the parts will be stressed, and the women will be cold and well covered. ;)

Something else everyone should remember is that poly bushed parts will bind the suspension up once they reach the limits of their travel so over time either the poly bushing will wear out or you get the breakage people have been expirencing.
That's why I choose spherical bearing parts when I can afford them because the won't bind the suspension up. So there's nothing wrong with BMR or any other products if you understand the limitations and design parameters of the parts you choose.
If i were autoxing I'd have all spherical suspension components to allow the suspension to work properly.

LG Motorsports adjustable panhard rod, I had it on my 93Z28, it was great, never had a problem with it...

I'm buying one for my 01SS, it's in the mail.