Does Chevy risk irrelevancy?

You know....reading about the Chrysler 300C, really reminds me that Chevy needs a big, fast, glorious RWD V8 sedan.

The SRT-4 reminds me that Chevy needs a cheap, sizzling fast, FWD entry level car. ( OK, the Cobalt SS Supercharged.....but I'll bet it'll cost more and be way slower than the SRT-4).

The Ram and F-150 remind me that Chevy trucks have lost their edge.

And of course, Mustang reminds me that Chevy needs a totally a$$-kicking YOU-KNOW-WHAT.

OK, so we know that new products are in the pipeline, and trucks are ending their product cycle just when the others are beginning theirs.
But is Chevy so far behind that it risks irrelevancy?

I've thought about that same thing. GM has good stuff coming, we all know that, but if everyone else beats em to the punch, the public is gonna look at Chevy/GM as followers and not leaders. Either way, I can see GM playing major catchup in the sales catagory once these new products from other manufacturers start really taking off.

BTW, Chrysler's new 300 is ALL the reasons why GM (more specifically, Chevy) REALLY needs a full-size RWD sedan again. 300's have gotten nothing but rave reviews and with their starting price, they should sell like hotcakes. Zeta wont get here fast enough.......

Its image is plowing downward, certainly, at least as far as I'm concerned. And I'm the only demographic I care about.

- Malibu turned out just tacky looking in real life.
- Impala is aging and it shows. Actually, the Camry and Accord are in the same predicament (Camry especially so). Nissan really has the midsize market cornered stylewise.
- The Aveo does not convey a good image for Chevrolet, but looks better than the Malibu.
- The Colorado has a mild presence on the street, but looks too rugged for anyone to want to customize (big faced).
- The Chevy trucks are all extremely out of date, particularly interior-wise. Furthermore, WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO FIX THE ALWAYS BURNT-OUT RUNNING LIGHT?
- The Cobalt and the Journey/small SUV thing look the nicest out of all of them now. But I haven't actually seen a production Cobalt yet, or its option list.

It's not looking good for the bowtie today. Don't know what's coming, but today, forget it.

GM appears too big and fat to get things done in a timely fashion. It is plagued with disorganization and inflexibility. They really seem to be more of a holding or marketing company than a producer of automobiles these days. E.g. it's not their "core competency", or something.

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but I guess it's because of all the disappointment.

I guess we are still paying the price of the actions of GMs former management from back in the late 90s. But there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel, at least I hope.

I still think it was a big mistake ending the B-Bodies. I believe that line could have been continuely refined. And like with so many other GM programs it was getting on the right track when the plug was pulled.

Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I guess we are still paying the price of the actions of GMs former management from back in the late 90s. But there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel, at least I hope.

True, once Lutz's creations start hitting the streets it will be easy to openly be a GM enthusiast. Right now though, its pretty grim.

Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I still think it was a big mistake ending the B-Bodies. I believe that line could have been continuely refined. And like with so many other GM programs it was getting on the right track when the plug was pulled.

Imagine what they could've done with the B-bodies? LS1 and possibly future LS2 powered RWD Caprices and Impalas. :bow: Oh the possibilities.......

Originally posted by Z284ever
You know....reading about the Chrysler 300C, really reminds me that Chevy needs a big, fast, glorious RWD V8 sedan.

The SRT-4 reminds me that Chevy needs a cheap, sizzling fast, FWD entry level car. ( OK, the Cobalt SS Supercharged.....but I'll bet it'll cost more and be way slower than the SRT-4).

The Ram and F-150 remind me that Chevy trucks have lost their edge.

And of course, Mustang reminds me that Chevy needs a totally a$$-kicking YOU-KNOW-WHAT.

OK, so we know that new products are in the pipeline, and trucks are ending their product cycle just when the others are beginning theirs.
But is Chevy so far behind that it risks irrelevancy?

WHAT!! So Chryster makes a large RWD sedan, so should we? I dont get that?
As for the Cobalt, why would it cost more? The Ion comes in at under 20k, I suspect the Cobalt to be right next to it.
The Chevy truck sells more then the Dodge trucks... what, we dont have a hemi, so we cant compete? Lost what edge? The 5.3 makes plenty of power, and gets great gas milage?
As for the Mustang....I dont think that the Camaro is going to save the image of Chevy

Impalla sales are up, despite what you guys say. Ending the Bbodies was a bad idea? So keeping large land boats is a good idea?

I dont see this irrelevancy that you guys speak of. I see nothing but clear skys for not only Chevy, but all of GM. Sales keep going up, profits keep rolling in, and better and better product is hitting the floors. Behind? I dont call 10 new cars in 20 months behind. I dont call that "slow". I think you guys are looking at irrelevant points, like not having a Camaro will hurt Chevy's brand image or not having a 300hp FWD compact will destroy Chevy's name.
The Colorado is a great truck. Everyone is upset that the 3.5 V8 I-5 doesnt make as much power as Dodges 4.7 V8? The Colorado is a great truck, try driving one.
The Aveo is getting a lot of press, and everyone, including Car and Driver, liked the car.
Motor Trend PRAISED the Malibu for its value. They said," The Malibu's sticker price screams 'value' like an all you can eat buffet at the International House of Filet Mignon." Sales are also increasing monthly for the Malibu. The Maxx offers something that no one offers a cool little hatch back with great handling and power, with more room then you can shake a stick at.
I dont see a need or a massive demand for a RWD sedan. It think its a good idea, but the draw for one isnt THAT great.
I dont see any problems with Chevy and its future. Its present products are doing fantastic, and there are still more coming out. I dont think that Chevy is losing any ground. And on top of all of this, the Corvette is coming out to be the baddest Corvette ever made. Y

Agreed with you guys. Chevy needs to pick it up, and fast.

Big Al - great post. I don't see why it's panic time for Chevy. You've got an "old-school" truck line that still outsells it's competition, an Impala that doesn't strike a cord with enthusiasts but does with a couple hundred thousand others every year (it's not always about us is it???) a Cobalt that should be so vastly superior to Cavalier it is sickening and will be the nicest small car on the market IMO....so the supercharged SS won't be quite as fast as the SRT-4, big deal....how many SRT-4 Neons are sold each year? The SS will outsell the SRT because it's a better car in all the other areas that people look at in a compact car. In short, if Chevy can keep the sales momentum going through these times now, just wait till they get to "the good stuff".

Tend to agree with Al & Wilson here.....I think you guys are using the wrong measuring stick....and some off the reasoning is actually pretty silly.:rolleyes:

I've seen nothing but winners coming out in the "Revolution"....and there's more to come!:D

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
In short, if Chevy can keep the sales momentum going through these times now, just wait till they get to "the good stuff".

All of that, DESPITE the fact that the deep-pocketed GM is basically paying US to buy a Chevy...:rolleyes:
Let's not forget about the rebates and financing issues.
GM is still king of the hill in that arena, whereas everyone else is selling more-or-less "ad-hoc", and exceeding expected profits (at least Ford did in Q1).

Right now Chevy is selling more cars than any other brand, I'd say that's not too bad.............and there is still more good stuff to come. Don't for get about the new C6 and Equinox and Cobalt comming out in the very short term, all of whih are key vehicles and look to be very promising. As far as the rebates, the prices are jacked up to compensate for this so I don't think that is really an issue. I'd say, Chevy is in a pretty good spot as long as they keep things moving, and I think they will.

Another point on the trucks:

Colorado destroys, um... Ranger. (Read: DINOSAUR! lol), and the Dakota's styling, IMO will be awkward if it follows the new Durango's styling.

The Silverado line is 'old' looking, because Dodge and Ford have recently re-done their full size lines.... Remember when Silverado debuted in 99, it was the fresh face, and WAS the freshest face alll the way until the new Ram came out, and then the F150.

Heck, Silverado even got a mild face lift (like it ot not, still got it) while the old Ram and F150 ran their whole life cycles basically unchanges visually.

I actually give CREDIT to GM for trucks and the way they've handled it to this point...

Purley bread and butter cars is all Chevy is maing right now. (excpet for the Corvette)
The words bland and boring come to mind. Too many powertrains with automatics only as well. Not drivers cars.

I do like the full size trucks and the Colorado seemed nice.
And of course the Cobalt looks like a winner but otherwise I would spend my money elsewhere.

But for the ignorant masses, Chevy is a possibility.

Originally posted by 305fan
Purley bread and butter cars is all Chevy is maing right now. (excpet for the Corvette)
The words bland and boring come to mind. Too many powertrains with automatics only as well. Not drivers cars.

I do like the full size trucks and the Colorado seemed nice.
And of course the Cobalt looks like a winner but otherwise I would spend my money elsewhere.

But for the ignorant masses, Chevy is a possibility.

That's exactly the point was making.

Al & Z28Wilson IMHO have it right. Chevy's doing very very well. It's just they aren't making the cars WE want.

Pretty much everything in Chevy's lineup is selling well. That's because of that ugly truth we tend to forget: 90% of car buyers aren't out to buy cheap fast reardrive roadburners.

The bulk of all buyers are after a practical vehicle that serves their purpose, that has the most stuff loaded on at the cheapest price possible. If that's nothing else, that's Chevrolet.

Impala is GM's best selling car. Till last summer, the Cavalier was GM's best selling car. Chevy trucks outsell Dodge. Next to Mustang, Monte Carlo is either the best selling coupe, or in the top 3. Malibu may not be attractive, but it is loaded with features at a relatively low price. Corvette can be viewed as the world's cheapest supercar.

Chevy's very much in the game right now. It's just that they are playing in someone else's park.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
WHAT!! So Chryster makes a large RWD sedan, so should we? I dont get that?

Well....Yeah! I've got some news for you, the LX cars are going to change the automotive landscape in NA. There is an incredible "buzz" around these cars and they are selling like crazy. Sure the Impala is doing well...but the LX cars (current and future), will change peoples' expectations for this segment. And I'm not just talking enthusiasts either.


As for the Cobalt, why would it cost more? The Ion comes in at under 20k, I suspect the Cobalt to be right next to it.

We'll see. It will certainly be slower than SRT-4, and I've heard Cobalt SS Supercharged will go for substantiantially north of $23K.

As for the Mustang....I dont think that the Camaro is going to save the image of Chevy

I think that a properly executed Camaro will be a HUGE image enhancing device for Chevrolet. I can't believe that you don't think so!

Other than the Vette and trucks, there are no cars that Chevrolet makes that people 12-25 want/desire. Cobalt SS is a big step in the right direction, it doesn't need to beat the SRT-4 as long as it comes close and is cheaper/same price.

Actualy, I think Chevy is making cars that young kids want. The Aveo, the Colorado, the Cobalt, and as they get higher in the band, the Malibu Maxx, and Equinox. Look at these cars, and they arent as boring or dull as the last ones. The Aveo's list of options will attract young kids looking for a gas sipping cool little go kart. It has an MP3 player along with XM etc etc... and for around 10k?
The Colorado, that thing is shooting right at young males. Just look at the commercials! I think they should push the sport model more, because all I see is the Z71. At NYIAS, there were a lot of kids hanging around the Colorado Xtreem concept.
The Cobalt will be a fantastic foot stomp into the compact market. The ecotec engine is building up an awesome rep with sport compact buyers. They acutaly did an Ion on that Tuner Transformation, and he was talking about the popularity of the ecotec 2.2.
The Maxx, I know I love that car. I took a test drive, and I was amazed at the scoot in that car, and the room. Seriously, you would have to be near 7ft to start to feel cramped. Its a perfect little car, and it undercuts the Camry. I think its a great car for people looking for a SUV room, but wants a car.
And the Equinox, out of the 10 or so I have seen, 80% of them were in there mid 20's, and they were male. That SUV is the best looking mid sized SUV out there IMO. The Escape is downright fugly when you put it next to the Nox.

and the best part, all of them felt great quality wise(outside of the Cobalt that I didnt sit in) and they didnt look like rubbermaid crap on the inside.

Chevy has eased up on its rebates, and cars are still selling. They are getting better review in car rags so this might be the start of change in the publics opinion. Chevy is making the cars, people just need to realize that Toyotas and Hondas arent that amazing. I think we tend to look back to the "old" way of how GM did things. I see it all the time.

and GM did post a larger profit then what analysts were predicting, and there sales are on the up. Cant say that much for Ford. :rolleyes:

This is funny. In reality, how far away is Chevy from being everything the enthusiasts want it to be (within reason)?

2 CARS.

Me thinks a new Camaro combined with a RWD sedan would cure just about all that ails guys like you Z284Ever. :) Sheesh, Chevy is a lot closer than you think...I saw a Middle East Chevy Lumina zipping around Chicago last summer...wonder why that was? :think: When those two products become reality, along with perhaps even a new El Camino courtesy of Holden, Chevy is right where we'd like it to be!

Irrelevant? I like to think Chevrolet is a few years away from being THE standard in many segments!

I would like to think that the Camaro would the the icing on the cake. After Chevy takes up massive chunks of the large, midsized, and small car market, has a few sweet halo cars, the Corvette is owning many supercars, then on top of all this greatness.... They give us the Camaro. Think of it like a Christmas when you were a kid, where the presents keep getting better and better, and just when you think all your presents were over, you dad tells you to come into the garage and gives you a POWER WHEELS!! YEAAAAAAAAH!

:D

Originally posted by Z28Wilson


Me thinks a new Camaro combined with a RWD sedan would cure just about all that ails guys like you Z284Ever. :)


That would sure be a great start and would make threads like THIS irrelevant.


Until then though...................

Originally posted by Big Als Z
And GM did post a larger profit then what analysts were predicting, and there sales are on the up.
Cant say that much for Ford. :rolleyes:

You can't say much for Ford anytime...
That's why I AM HERE! :D ;)

Quote "Ford posted nearly $2 billion in earnings in the first quarter, more than twice what analysts and Ford itself anticipated. "
From thisUSA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2004-04-21-ford_x.htm) article.

Or you could have read thisReutter's Newswire (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&e=4&u=/nm/autos_ford_earns_dc) story about the same thing.

Or...
You could have actually read THIS thread in THIS forum (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252922&highlight=ford+profits), in which GuionM pointed you straight to it.

OMG... these rose-colored glasses are so hard to pry off sometimes.:no:

Originally posted by Z284ever
That would sure be a great start and would make threads like THIS irrelevant.


Until then though...................

Z284ever, I agree with Wilson and some of the other guys... it's definitely not terminal, it just stinks at the moment. There are some cool units coming down the pipe, and some cool ones already here. I am impressed with several offerings myself... namely SSR and the Colorado.

The only thing I want to point out is that the folks that keep saying "They are coming, just wait."...
You guys have got to understand that all of GM's competition is not standing still while GM is developing new models. They are developing too.
And speaking from experience, it's often a lot easier to refine and smooth out the bumps on a model that's already in production, than to execute a flawless and troublefree launch from scratch.

Good example of that... the Mustang and Camaro.
The 05 Mustang will be 2 years into it's new life, and looking for a reskin and freshening when the Maro comes out new. Sure the Maro will have the new "appeal" that Mustang is having this summer, but the liklihood of Mustang having any recalls or troubles in 2007 are much reduced due to 2 years of production.

All I'm saying here is that the market won't "wait" for Chevy to put out new models, the market is moving too. It makes catching up harder to do than running with the pack.

Originally posted by Z28x
Other than the Vette and trucks, there are no cars that Chevrolet makes that people 12-25 want/desire. Cobalt SS is a big step in the right direction, it doesn't need to beat the SRT-4 as long as it comes close and is cheaper/same price.

Cars that 12-25's want & desire?

Well, 12-16s can't own cars because for the most part, the aren't allowed to drive.

17 year olds don't can't own car because they aren't even legal adults.

18-20 year olds don't buy new cars. Something to the tune of 90% plus or so buy used cars.

21-25 year olds are the ones who are just starting off, and unless they are landing into high paying jobs right out of school, they are buying low priced economy cars, with a few spilling over to Mustangs. However, once again, this is an age group that buy used cars.

Mitsubishi had a finance program that was made to attract more young kids to their brand by addressing the thing that keeps young kids from buying new cars: Credit history.

Today, Mitsubishi USA is a financial basket case, and the top reason: all that effort to finance "kids".

Young males want a Skyline GT-R just like in they wanted Mitsubishi 3000 GTs, Toyota Superas, and RX7s 10 years ago. The Skyline is way over $50,000 and all the other cars died because no one was buying them (way too expensive).

At 18, you're going to school or just starting off in the world, so you most certainly aren't wasting money. By 21, you're finished with school, or have moved up enough in your trade where you can get a cheap new car if you want or a really good used car. By 25, you have established good credit, your insurence premiums drop, and you are pretty settled in your job and have a little extra money.

Point is that catering cars to kids is a great way to quickly hang an out of business sign on your window. Most people get their 1st new car at 25 or older (to those who got one earlier, consider yourself the small & lucky minority), so it only makes sense to cater to that age group.

You can't argue or debate with success, and Chevrolet is still one of the top automakers. Toyota (hardly a maker of kids cars) is also making a fortune producing run of the mill, boring cars that appeal to budget & value hunters and older people.

17yearolds can't own a car? I bought mine at 16:confused:

Originally posted by 305fan
17yearolds can't own a car? I bought mine at 16:confused:


You're in Canada, that's different. ;)


Most states here won't even issue you a learner's permit till you're 15 (15 1/2 in California). There are exceptions (ie: Farming areas or areas where school is reachable only by automobile) but it's few & far between.

Also, here in the US, contracts aren't binding till the person's 18 years old, including any sales contracts.

That's the US for you. I believe we are the only country on earth that allows 18-21 year olds to buy a house and to risk getting blown apart in wars or seeing others getting blown apart, but don't allow them to have a beer when they get home.

Pretty much everything in Chevy's lineup is selling well. That's because of that ugly truth we tend to forget: 90% of car buyers aren't out to buy cheap fast reardrive roadburners.

I'm not sure I agree with this premise. My wife currently owns an Impala, and as much as we're both Chevy people she can't stomach the Malibu (style, is there any?). Since our next car will be a station wagon to drive around kids that are coming, the Maxx just doesn't stack up to the Dodge Magnum. So even though 200 front whp is enough for her, the Magnum will be the replacement. For styling/safety reasons, not because its rwd. I think the new Chrysler/Dodge rwd vehicles will appeal to people for reasons besides rwd or in spite of rwd.

i am 24......:p

Originally posted by ProudPony
You can't say much for Ford anytime...
That's why I AM HERE! :D ;)

Quote "Ford posted nearly $2 billion in earnings in the first quarter, more than twice what analysts and Ford itself anticipated. "
From thisUSA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2004-04-21-ford_x.htm) article.

Or you could have read thisReutter's Newswire (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&e=4&u=/nm/autos_ford_earns_dc) story about the same thing.

Or...
You could have actually read THIS thread in THIS forum (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252922&highlight=ford+profits), in which GuionM pointed you straight to it.

OMG... these rose-colored glasses are so hard to pry off sometimes.:no:

yeah, profits were good, but what about sales?..

DETROIT (AP) -- Americans' appetites for gas-slurping pickups and sport utility vehicles boosted business for several automakers last month, even as high fuel prices helped contribute to record sales for gas-electric hybrid cars.

Ford Motor Co.'s overall sales for April were below expectations, the company said Monday, while DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group performed slightly better than expected. A computer glitch forced General Motors Corp., the world's largest automaker, to postpone its April sales report until Tuesday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040503/auto_sales_43.html

or this one
DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. said Tuesday that sales were down 3.2 percent in February in what has been a sluggish new year for U.S. automakers.

The country’s second-largest automaker saw its biggest decrease in car sales, which fell 15.2 percent from February 2003. Truck sales for the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands were up 3.3 percent, buoyed by the continued success of F-series pickups.

The company said it was cutting second-quarter production at its North American assembly plants by 5 percent from last year, slashing car production by 21 percent and increasing truck production by 2 percent.

First-quarter production will be slightly less -- 1.5 percent -- than previously announced, Ford said.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/02/autos-80200.htm

ford's numbers are dropping every month.

Originally posted by ProudPony
All I'm saying here is that the market won't "wait" for Chevy to put out new models, the market is moving too. It makes catching up harder to do than running with the pack.

Proud, you have precisely verbalized what I am trying to say.

The market is moving forward....and rapidly! When we talk about the 300 and 300C, it's not enough when someone says..."just wait 5 years, when Chevy gets it's car". What Chevy has now is the Impala. It's a competent piece alright, and it's an unmitigated sales success.

But......

If someone said, here's 30 grand , go buy yourself an Impala SS or 300C....there should be very little doubt on which car I would purchase. In this scenerio, the Chevy choice is irrelevant.

http://cobaltSS.net









:D

Originally posted by Z284ever
Proud, you have precisely verbalized what I am trying to say.

The market is moving forward....and rapidly! When we talk about the 300 and 300C, it's not enough when someone says..."just wait 5 years, when Chevy gets it's car". What Chevy has now is the Impala. It's a competent piece alright, and it's an unmitigated sales success.

But......

If someone said, here's 30 grand , go buy yourself an Impala SS or 300C....there should be very little doubt on which car I would purchase. In this scenerio, the Chevy choice is irrelevant.

I don't know what to say friend.

The cold-hard truth is that GM (read that as CHEVY) may be on track to provide exceptional "appliances" to compete head-on with Toyota, Honda, and the likes. Maybe it's hugely profitable, and the best thing for the company to do in response to sherholders and bean counters - but it sure does leave the enthusiast out in the cold.

I think Chevy will continue to put out sporty or "hopped-up" versions of their mainstays, but will those be sufficient to satisfy the enthusiasts?
I guess my concern along those lines is just what you named the thread... if those efforts don't satisfy the enthusiasts to the point of prying open their wallets, then the programs are destined to fail, and the Limited Eds and SuperSport versions will cease to come, leaving Chevrolet synonimous with Appliance Central.

Honestly, that would really break my heart too. Too much heritage there to flush it all down the chitter, especially during a musclecar-loaded time like we are in now. :no:

Originally posted by ProudPony


I think Chevy will continue to put out sporty or "hopped-up" versions of their mainstays, but will those be sufficient to satisfy the enthusiasts?


So does the Corvette, SSR LS2, Trail Blazer SS 385hp, Cobalt SS 210hp+ count? I think what you and everyone else is refering to is the absense of the Camaro. Well, all you can say about that is it's comming and I think it will definatly perform and satisfy enthusiasts at that time, not a few years earlier. Just mark the times of the new C6 to gauge performance of the Camaro. I'm just worried about the styling.

Another thing to remember is that GM has many brands and many options to place performace vehicles between thier brands. They are not going to have every Chevy car try to grab the performance enthusiast. They can have these cars from Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn, Cadillac(if you want to count them), and even Buick. Some will be cars like the Malibu where they are after a certain market and are not too concerned about the small performance segment. Anyway, it seems to me that the better these "bread and butter" cars do, the more options GM will have for specializing these vehicles.

Ok, I think we are looking at chevy as if it was making performance cars for the past 30 years. OUTSIDE of the corvette and camaro, what else did it have from 74 to now that was sporty? Chevy never was a performance brand, Pontiac is. Pontiac will have more "sport" then Chevy. Chevy is a bread and butter company. But they offer more "sporty" cars now then they have before. Do they all need 500hp superchaged V12's to be considered sporty?
I think our idea of "fast" is scewed because of the cars we drive and love. I see comparisions to modded fbodies to the GTO. "Well, my car can run 11 sec in the 1/4, why cant the GTO?"
In the day of 400hp Corvettes and Mustangs and 500hp pick ups, if anything steps out onto the street that is slower then 12 sec, its considered slow and worthless.
Chevy can keep making money on trucks and then toss it to the program.
I have ZERO doubt that when the Camaro returns, it will take the crown back of bang for the buck.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
Ok, I think we are looking at chevy as if it was making performance cars for the past 30 years. OUTSIDE of the corvette and camaro, what else did it have from 74 to now that was sporty?

Don't have much time, but just off the top of my head:

*Monte Carlo SS (G-body)
*Impala SS (B-body)
*Beretta GTZ
*Z24 (V6)
*Laguna S3
*Various Nova models
*Citation X11
*Cosworth Vega/ Vega GT
*Monza Mirage/Spyder
*Turbo Monte Carlo
*Malibu/ElCamino (Malibu could be ordered with 305 4 speed/ Elky with 350 4 speed).

Gotta go...I'll think of more later.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Another thing to remember is that GM has many brands and many options to place performace vehicles between thier brands.

EXACTLY! Chevy is not going to get ALL the goodies like the Ford brand does because GM still has the Pontiac "excitement" division. Besides the Marauder (good concept, poor execution = failure) no one looks to Mercury for performance. Even though Chevy and Ford are traditional rivals I think, at least right now, their missions are quite different. I think we'll start to see Chevy turn back into the "everything for everybody" division soon with the better SS trucks, LS2 SSR, C6,....*fingers crossed* new Camaro.....

Yup, Chevy had more performance models that any division of GM. People try to say Poniac is the performance division but to people GM performance, or sometimes even performance in general, is spelled C-h-e-v-r-o-l-e-t. Pontiac had what in all these years? GTO and Firebird?! And where'd the Firebird really come from?! Who had all the cars Z284 listed? Who had ZL1 Camaros, (the fastest and highest powered musclecar ever) Z28 Trans Am racing Camaro's, SS454 Chevelle's, Nova SS's, Impala SS's, MC SS's, Corvettes, and so on? Who has cars like that that were modded buy guys like Yenko? Which division is named after a racecar driver and has the bigger following in performance? I'll tell you who, not Pontiac. They might have came up with the first muclecar, but they are not famous for performance like Chevy has become.

So why should every car now be boring? And when they do try to add some power, it's never enough to be competitive anymore. Chevy has always been F*rd's direct competitior and it's about time they act like it again model for model. Chevy used to outsell everyone all by itself, you can't do that with just plain cars and stepped up interiors.

Originally posted by IZ28


Chevy has always been F*rd's direct competitior and it's about time they act like it again model for model.

Yeah, but you could say the same for Ford. What do they have beside the Mustang? They have the Taurus, Crown Vic, Focus and none of them have any performance variants...............If Chevy isn't competing, then Ford definatly is not.

IMO the way things are going, chevy is becoming the s*** division of GM, except for the corvette.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Yeah, but you could say the same for Ford. What do they have beside the Mustang? They have the Taurus, Crown Vic, Focus and none of them have any performance variants...............If Chevy isn't competing, then Ford definatly is not.


Well, I think the Crown Vic LX Sport is pretty neat. As far as Focus goes...we still have SVT Focus and Focus ZTS for '04. In '05 we'll get the first North American ST....the Focus ST.

You got me on Taurus.....nothing since the SHO.

wow...the way some of you think, things should never change. I think GM as a whole is moving in the right direction.

Originally posted by uluz28
wow...the way some of you think, things should never change. I think GM as a whole is moving in the right direction.

You are correct... As an engineer, I am often the person ASKING for changes or improvements, but there are also the right places to do it and not. I guess it's just my personal opinion, but it saddens me to see the 6-decade-long rivalry of Ford and Chevy turning into a "Battle of the Appliances".

I really don't find 13 cupholders to be a sizzling sales point, at least not like dual exhausts and a V8. But like others are pointing out - and I admit - I am an enthusiast and so my tastes and spending habits are different from the common Joe.

Even though change is inevitable, that doesn't always mean it's a good thing for everyone. :no:

I agree with you whole heartedly. However, my opinion is that there will always be cars for enthusiasts. Chevy has not and will not give up on enthusiasts IMHO...

Originally posted by uluz28
I agree with you whole heartedly. However, my opinion is that there will always be cars for enthusiasts. Chevy has not and will not give up on enthusiasts IMHO...
you mean they wont give up on the corvette enthusiastists?

I think the ford vs. chevy thing no longer exists... pontiac is becoming the performance division, and GMC is getting the better trucks... that leaves chevy with the plain-jane econo-cars and the vette... Unless you consider the SSR a performance vehicle:o

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Yeah, but you could say the same for Ford. What do they have beside the Mustang? They have the Taurus, Crown Vic, Focus and none of them have any performance variants...............If Chevy isn't competing, then Ford definatly is not.

exactly. Crown Vic sport? It still has the same 4.6 found in every other CV right? Nothing added to its performance? Its doesnt have a DOHC motor right? So thats not really sport.
The SVT Focus... the SVT Focus, aka the performance focus, puts out as much power as the mid level Cobalt.
And as for Taurus... my family owns 3 (yeah, I own a Taurus, hence the Ford hate), there hasnt been much since the SHO.

You might not find 13 cup holders a big selling point, but someone does. Like you said, enthusiasts realy could give a crap about "comfort" items out side of the drivers seat and placement of the shifter and wheel.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
exactly. Crown Vic sport? It still has the same 4.6 found in every other CV right? Nothing added to its performance? Its doesnt have a DOHC motor right? So thats not really sport.

There is some added performance. True, you don't get the DOHC motor. But you get 15 more HP and 12 more lbs/ft torque. You also get a suspension package and a specific 17" wheel/tire combo. I think it's a nice little package for the money.
The SVT Focus... the SVT Focus, aka the performance focus, puts out as much power as the mid level Cobalt.

What mid level Cobalt? You talk about it like Cobalt has been available at your local Chevy dealer for years. As you know, the SVT Focus is going away after this year. Most of it's parts are going into the cheaper '05 Focus ST.

But it would have been interesting to compare SVT Focus to the UPCOMING Cobalt SS. Or, what would have been the 220HP SVT Turbo Focus to the Cobalt SS Supercharged.

Who says a turbo Focus is out of the picture :cool: BTW, I also own a SVT Focus (bought it for wife's daily beater). Power wasn't the goal on that car. Get in and drive it and you forget about HP. You keep looking for another turn. A faster turn. Eventually you find yourself taking all the highway mix-masters as fast as you can, scoping out new twisty streets and maybe even doing slalom in the grocery store parking lot :p The car handles and handles well. If I wasn't 6'3" with size 15 shoes, I'd have one as my daily beater instead of my WRX. Even flogging the SVT Focus my wife nor I can get LESS than 25 MPG IN THE CITY! There's a lot of fun to be had in small cars like that.

The Focus ST should continue this fun rather nicely. Once the Euro Focus reaches us, I hear it'll be even better!

i think alot of people are very jaded thanks to the 3rd and 4th gens. it was always about performance. and now thats part of why they are dead. in todays world not a whole lot of people want performance if it sacrifices reliability, comfort, safety, or other things like that. people want what gets the job done primarily. people want whats cheap but not too cheap. people want things like the current impala. why? because it gets the job done.

i work in a chain of small retail stores. the owner of the chain owns a new impala (not even SS) and just bought himself a brand new Avalanche. he didnt get the high performance SS Implan or the high performance SS SIlverado because he would be buying something that he doesnt need. hell right now i own a 91 trans am and a 92 blazer. im about ready to upgrade to an LS1 car but keep the 92 blazer. its slow enough (4.3 non vortec v6) that i have to take most highwya entrance ramps at damn near WOT. that doesnt bother me because i didnt buy the truck for its performance. i bought it for its usability and reliability. within the next couple of years i may upgrade to a canyon. those are pretty nice and look pretty sweet too. i doubt i get the performance edition unless cost is about the same because i dont need 2 high performance vehicles.

thats why bread and butter cars are successful. because they are good at what they are designed for. people on here get bent out of shape when a high performance edition isnt made or is made but with less performance than they deem ness. why? because we are enthusiasts. thats what we like. but this isnt the 60s anymore. most stay at home moms dont drive a 400hp v8 to get groceries.

87camracer:

You make some good points. The majority of consumers are looking for reliable cheap transportation. They need nothing more than androgenous, vanilla appliances. And Chevy...to it's credit ..has the androgenous vanilla appliance sector covered. Even beyond that...they have androgenous vanilla appliances available with heavy rebates too. Many people can be happy with that.

But not me. Maybe I don't represent the majority of consumers...but I need something to light a spark before I buy. Even for my daily driver. Even for my wife's family hauler. No, it doesn't need 400hp, or even 300hp....but it does need some thing. Maybe just a sporty suspension and manual trans....maybe some styling element that makes me pay attention. Maybe a new platform (as in DC's LX), that changes all my paradigms. Whatever it is......it's something that Chevy doesn't have presently, and that makes me sad :( .

One last thing.....

Even for those who are looking for no more than "vanilla", alittle something extra special wouldn't hurt.....in fact, it may be a pleasant surprise to them. It certainly wouldn't stop them from buying....who knows, maybe even for a lower rebate.

Originally posted by Z284ever
87camracer:

You make some good points. The majority of consumers are looking for reliable cheap transportation. They need nothing more than androgenous, vanilla appliances. And Chevy...to it's credit ..has the androgenous vanilla appliance sector covered. Even beyond that...they have androgenous vanilla appliances available with heavy rebates too. Many people can be happy with that.

But not me. Maybe I don't represent the majority of consumers...but I need something to light a spark before I buy. Even for my daily driver. Even for my wife's family hauler. No, it doesn't need 400hp, or even 300hp....but it does need some thing. Maybe just a sporty suspension and manual trans....maybe some styling element that makes me pay attention. Maybe a new platform (as in DC's LX), that changes all my paradigms. Whatever it is......it's something that Chevy doesn't have presently, and that makes me sad :( .

One last thing.....

Even for those who are looking for no more than "vanilla", alittle something extra special wouldn't hurt.....in fact, it may be a pleasant surprise to them. It certainly wouldn't stop them from buying....who knows, maybe even for a lower rebate.

i agree than people are buying very bland cars. but GM isnt the only one making boring cars. Fords only cars that look decent and not boring are the stangs and the gt. and i think those are both hideous pieces of animal feces. but we wont get into that here.

for the past couple of years GMs cars ahve lost their spark. now they are just cars that fit in with the other relatively bland cars. i like where Acura is going at the present time. i LOVE the new TL. the headlights on that car really set off the front end and give the car an in your face look that at the same time is not over bearing. cars today are so bland and flat. they dont have lines that entail mystique. take the 4th gen for example. it is a decent looking car and has some very nice models. but compare that to a nice third gen and you will see what im talking about. the 3rd gen has lines that really added something extra to the car.

i dont think buyers can be won or bought by horsepower these days. unless its a person looking for that like you or I. others look for a car that looks halfway decent, does what they want them to do, and does it for cheap. special editions add flavor to these lines but come with a higher price tag. and usually these special edition cars have no more than a sticker package added on. maybe wheels and exhaust but come on. make it something that is truely different. to me a special edition is something like the Acura RSX Type S A-Spec. nothing too outragous in terms of styling, has new wheels, and a reworked suspension. i think cars need things like that.

i will disagree with your last point tho, buyers most certainly can be turned off by more horsepower. look at v6 4th gen buyers. they prolly bought the car for 1 of 3 reasons:

1. price
2. insurance
3. performance

fact is, not everyone that owns an fbody bought it for its racing abilities. i know alot of the locals around here didnt buy a z28 because its something they dont need. or in the case of price the high performance models add on to the price. maybe insurance was a concern because higher insurance premiums seem to go hand in hand with high performance.

im waiting on the Cobalt to be released but i personally think gm is on to something there. several different levels of performance. the go fast enthusiast can pop for the most expensive Supercharged SS or the budge minded could pop for the standard SS and be just as happy. and yet even still a budget minded person looking to go fast without the insurance rates could pop for the regular cobalt and finance in a factory supercharger and if available maybe exhaust work. i really believe that the cobalt is gonna be a hit. it offers something for everybody.

My biggest gripe about Chevy right now is the lack of a big RWD sedan and the lack of a Camaro. I think its just disheartening finally seeing other automakers bringing their cars out and waiting for the goods to come from GM, even if we know they're coming.

However in my first post I wasnt preaching "All is Lost", I think all the Chevy division of GM needs is the big RWD sedan cause there is a HUGE market for this from fleet to emergency services to consumers and of course our Camaro back. The sporty part of Chevy is complete with Corvette AND Camaro. Corvette is high end and v6 Camaros cover the extreme low end and mid v8 and high end v8 Camaros cover the in between. IMO thats ALL that Chevy needs to complete its portfolio right now. Save the roadsters, mid-engine, and AWD beasts for Pontiac.

Originally posted by 87camracer
i dont think buyers can be won or bought by horsepower these days. unless its a person looking for that like you or I. others look for a car that looks halfway decent, does what they want them to do, and does it for cheap. special editions add flavor to these lines but come with a higher price tag. and usually these special edition cars have no more than a sticker package added on. maybe wheels and exhaust but come on. make it something that is truely different. to me a special edition is something like the Acura RSX Type S A-Spec. nothing too outragous in terms of styling, has new wheels, and a reworked suspension. i think cars need things like that.

i will disagree with your last point tho, buyers most certainly can be turned off by more horsepower. look at v6 4th gen buyers. they prolly bought the car for 1 of 3 reasons:

1. price
2. insurance
3. performance




I wasn't at all talking about horsepower there.....simply cranking up the power is not enough. The 4th gen proved that .
I was referring to having some sence of style or appeal. What's wrong with having that? Look at the Malibu for example.
Would it have have been so wrong if it weren't so homely? In fact the SS model will only be available on the Maxx, because the regular Malibu is so vanilla, that the SS version bombed in consumer clinics.

What if the Malibu were more attractive, maybe more like it's Opel Vectra platform mate? What if it were available with some nice wheels? What if the 3.5 or 3.9 were available with a 5 or 6 speed manual? Horsepower is the last thing I'm talking about here....sure, I like power, but I'm not one of these "just add more power...that's all we need" guys.

I'm just concerned that Chevy has become the "appliance" division, maybe that's a good business plan for them.....but that makes them irrelevant to me.

Originally posted by Z284ever


There is some added performance. True, you don't get the DOHC motor. But you get 15 more HP and 12 more lbs/ft torque. You also get a suspension package and a specific 17" wheel/tire combo. I think it's a nice little package for the money. [/B]

Don't forget dual exhaust and a 3.55 "perfromance" axle ratio

Originally posted by Z284ever
Even for those who are looking for no more than "vanilla", alittle something extra special wouldn't hurt.....in fact, it may be a pleasant surprise to them. It certainly wouldn't stop them from buying....who knows, maybe even for a lower rebate.

Funny you should use that term... it brings to mind another paradigm that was tested years ago.

We "old dudes" recall the days of Chevelle SS396 cars, 454 big blocks, tire-smoking El Caminos, Impy and Nova SS cars - especially the early Novas from the 60's, man I love those cars! We rehash the old Monte Carlo SS from the mid '80's (man, did I run my share of those things in my 5.0 T-bird!). All that performance, and I haven't even BEGUN to mention the Camaros yet!:eek:

OK, let's think about Coca-Cola now...
A "performance" beverage. Fizzy, racy, peps you up on caffene and sugar. Been selling it basically unchanged for 100 years. There's the classic logo, the bottle, and even the tagline "It's the REAL thing". These are mainstays of the BRAND. You see a Coke bottle, you don't think Tab, or Snapple... you think COKE.

Maybe some of you younger whipper-snappers don't recall back in the 80's when Coke invested bazillion$ of dollars in a new image, a new version of Coke. It was a new flavor. The company really risked a lot by changing their basic recipe too. Well, it was a TOTAL FLOP. Coke had to back pedal and do MAJOR damage control. They went so far as to repackage the old original recipe in cans that said "ORIGINAL Coca-Cola", because people were picking up cans of the new stuff thinking "Coke is Coke", then getting grossly disappointed when they took a swig.

Nowadays, when Coke or Pepsi introduce a new drink like Pepsi Clear, Pepsi Blue, or Vanilla Coke, they are VERY CAUTIOUS about not associating the new with the original beverage, and they CERTAINLY don't try to replace the original baverage the way Coke did in the '80's. And you know what's more, none of the new drinks seem to ever reach the success levels that the original drinks did, nor do they ever "redefine" the company.

My point, when we buy a Coke, we expect Coke to be in the can. We always have. And when Coke wasn't in the can, many felt betrayed and bought something else (Pepsi mostly).
The same scenario applies to Chevrolet IMHO.
I expect Chevy to provide me Chevy cars and trucks - like they always have. From good basic transportation to performance cars to pony cars - you name it. Camaro is Chevy. Impala is Chevy. C/K is Chevy. Monte Carlo is Chevy.
Like Coke learned, if Chevy changes it's chemistry to become only a "basic transportation" vehicle provider, they may or may not be successful, but they will certainly lose enthusiastic supporters.

The "new Coke" was still wet, quenched your thirst, and really didn't taste bad at all - so it DID a job. But it wasn't Coke anymore, and people rebuked.
Likewise, if Chevy isn't Chevy anymore... well... Vanilla Chevy anyone?:no: