GM is loosing a generation

The only two lines that the younger generation looks at are compacts and muscle cars. How did GM put itself in a situation were it doesn't have a serious product for either market. Now that the f-bodies are gone and the cavalier is a joke, what are new buyers supposed to see in GM?? Old faithful brand loyal customers will keep buying out of tradition, but this is going to really hurt chevy's brand image down the line. Right now, GM has NOTHING that appeals to the 15 through 20 something generation and It looks like its just going to get worse before it gets better

The Vibe, baby... it's all about The Vibe!!! :p :dead:

I wouldn't call Cavalier a joke. It's currently GM's biggest selling car, and I've seen quite a few hopped up pretty nicely out here.

As far as GM loosing a generation, best I can tell, it was lost well before Camaro & Firebird was discontinued. Most of the time, I see newer Camaros driven by people my age or older, yet newer Mustangs I see driven by people in their 20s with the only exception being the Cobras.

Originally posted by slt
The only two lines that the younger generation looks at are compacts and muscle cars. How did GM put itself in a situation were it doesn't have a serious product for either market. Now that the f-bodies are gone and the cavalier is a joke, what are new buyers supposed to see in GM?? Old faithful brand loyal customers will keep buying out of tradition, but this is going to really hurt chevy's brand image down the line. Right now, GM has NOTHING that appeals to the 15 through 20 something generation and It looks like its just going to get worse before it gets better

i agree with what is said..im 19 and the only thing that gm currently makes that i would want is the GTP and the caddy CT other than that i couldnt afford anything else (silverado ss and corvette) and im not a big fan of suvs..i hate parking next to them its a b*tch backing out :cry:

Loosing a generation? Read this:

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0209/17/a01-589344.htm

A few quotes:
Indeed, the trusty little entry-level car is even outselling the popular Ford Focus by about 17,000

"Young people took parents into dealers and said 'I'd like one of those please,' "

Younger buyers on a budget like the Cavalier for its price, but stylish extras are available. "You can also get a spoiler and CD player

"Cavaliers always sell well. There's never been a down period."

and, finally:
In August, sales for the Chevrolet Cavalier zoomed 90.4 percent over August 2001

Loosing a generation? Hah! :p

Being a 20 year old, I might be able to shed some insight on this.

I have some friends with Cavaliers, and some friends with other compacts.

Friend with Civic: Oh yeah, I have a Civic! I love it!

Friend with Corolla: My Corolla is awesome, I treat it like crap and it's never given me a problem.

Friend with Cavalier: *sigh* Yeah I have a ****ing Cavalier. It sucks, but I'm poor.



I don't know if selling people these cars is going to get a generation of buyers to Chevy. My friend with a KIA sounds happier with his car than most Cavalier owners I've spoken with.

Originally posted by guionM
Loosing a generation? Read this:

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0209/17/a01-589344.htm

A few quotes:
"Young people took parents into dealers and said 'I'd like one of those please,' "


HaHaHaHa, you are soo out of touch to believe this. Chevy has lost all street credibility with the the younger generation after the loss of the camaro. No one ever seriously respected the cavalier. People buy them b/c they are cheap and quickly learn they are POS's. Now even Neons are going to be pushing 200hp.

A camaro in 5 years is ridiculous. A whole generation will have passed by gm by then. Maybe the new GAGT will fill the hole.

Ive been saying this for a while.

Remember the commerical with the kids in the bedroom upstairs? Remember being like that when you were a kid? Although you probably couldnt afford an fbody at that point, they did fill quite a few kid's dreams at night, and now they're gone.

GM has the Vette to fill that void, but for some reason I always thought Camaros were cooler when I was a kid. When I went to car shows with my dad I remember looking at 1st gen Camaros, but there were never too many Vettes. I wanted a 4th gen so bad and my dad's friend got a 96 V6 in early, I thought he was the luckiest kid in the world.

....MY generation.......

Personally, with the new EcoTech (sp?) engines and other market positioning (i.e. performance parts division) I think GM is finally getting into position to cater to the younger generation quite nicely.

Who they seem to have forgotten all together.....are people my age (45), like me.....people who who wouldn't be caught dead driving an SUV, truck, Ford, DMC or foreign car.:mad:

Other than a used C5 / F4 (last I checked GM doesn't get a dime of this sale) what am I supposed to buy that has affordable performance??:confused: :think: :rolleyes:

It looks like I'll need to make do for at least five long years with a used car........:rolleyes: :death:

Shareholder driven companies (Like most US companies) only live for the next quarter. Well, in the next quarter, Trucks are where the money's at. Forget about cars. And for the next few quarters, they'll make lots of money. Then they will loose their ass. Right now, the Big 3 are scared to death because everybody's making trucks now, profits and sales are slowly evaporating, and they are being tromped by the koreans at the low end, the Japanese in the middle, and the Germans on the high end. How many "We are going to make some serious butt kicking cars in the next couple of years" articles have you read about the Big 3 lately?

Sample business planning meeting at a shareholder driven company:

Marketing: "We should redesign this car, it's stale and needs updating".

Bean Counters: "It has been in continuous production relatively unchanged since 1982. Most of the tooling has been paid off since 1985. We make lots of money on this car. If we redesigned it, it would cost 2 billion dollars and would require amortization of all new tooling, meaning we would make less money per car."

Marketing: "we won't be able to compete."

B/C: "That's okay, we'll make more money this quarter (or year) if we just keep making the old one. Plus we have trucks."

------repeat for next several quarters---

Years later:

Marketing: "we are a laughing stock in the auto market because we are so outdated. Sales have dropped 50% Avis won't even buy from us anymore"

B/C: "There is obviously no interest in this product or market. We will discontinue it."

Heck, I'm 37 and I don't see anything left that appeals to me either!

I've always been a Chevy loyalist. Other than the Vette (too expensive) and SS Pickup (that damn extended cab)... there's nothing for me to get excited about.

I'm seriously thinking of jumping over to Cadillac.

i'm 23 now and have had gm products for most of my life. most of my friends have fords. the main reason why?: because ford is putting out an affordable muscle car for my generation. i could barely afford to buy a three year old trans am let alone a new one. now given most of my friends would rather have the trans am, but its just not realistic. especially not if they can buy a new GT for the price of a two or three year old gm. my car is a '97 with 85k miles and is constantly falling apart or breaking and the maintenance is extremely costly. i just recently had to purchase a $400 fuel pump because there are no aftermarket ones. as a matter of fact, it seems for a while there that the only place you could get a replacement for anything on my car was from the dealer. i now have no arms or legs. just my two cents.

Originally posted by slt
HaHaHaHa, you are soo out of touch to believe this. Chevy has lost all street credibility with the the younger generation after the loss of the camaro. No one ever seriously respected the cavalier. People buy them b/c they are cheap and quickly learn they are POS's. Now even Neons are going to be pushing 200hp.

A camaro in 5 years is ridiculous. A whole generation will have passed by gm by then. Maybe the new GAGT will fill the hole.

Well well. :)

Being that Cavalier is now second only to the Civic in small car sales, and that it seems to be the only small car to increase sales (despite needing a rebody) while everyone else has decreased, I'd say Cavalier has all the credibility it needs right now.

Sure, it doesn't have street credibility, but I'd say the new Neon SR/T is an extreme case....the SR/T is LT1 quick! But off the top of my head, only the Civic & the SVT Focus are unquestionably faster. But young people buy only 2 types of cars: used or cheap . Only one matters in the sales wars, and I am glad to see that GM is being competitive in at least one area of affordable cars. Now, if only the aftermarket catches on. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by guionM
Well well. :)

Being that Cavalier is now second only to the Civic in small car sales, and that it seems to be the only small car to increase sales (despite needing a rebody) while everyone else has decreased, I'd say Cavalier has all the credibility it needs right now.

It is that exact thinking that is killing GM right now.

Originally posted by slt
It is that exact thinking that is killing GM right now.

How so? :confused:

Originally posted by slt
It is that exact thinking that is killing GM right now.

Definitely! I'm, in all honesty, not concerned about the 4-6 cylinder market. I want a reasonable priced performance car. (of course: wish in one hand, sh$t in the other...) i like gm performance, but not enough to have to settle for a riced out cavalier. if i wanted a compact, i'd be on another site looking for super spoilers and stick on hood scoops. it seems to me that gm is just suffering from a case of headupassa. i love my TA, but am still dissapointed in the GM performance department.

The whole "Look, Cavalier is selling great!" mentality is killing GM, I agree.

I don't know anyone who has a Cavalier that's actually happy with it, or proud of it. They'll sell one, but they sure as hell won't sell two...It's only selling because of price, right now.

I can only think of two different styles of Cavalier, ever...the car suffers from never being updated, like every GM car.

But the broke ass young people say hey, I can get this car dirt cheap and possibly get a rebate or cheap financing, and viola, a Cavalier is sold.

Selling people crap is going to kill the company's image to that person, and the Cavalier is crap. Is the average Cavalier owner going to upgrade to a Malibu or a Monte SS? I don't think so. The average young person would rather have a VW, Honda, or Toyota, and the Cavalier isn't the car to change their mind.

Lets see, GM offered a Z-28 at about a $23k starting price, and with special deals, tlking te dealer down, it is not hard to get one under $20k.HELLO a brand freakin new LS1 Z for that price, how much cheaper should they have gone??? The market IS NOT THERE!!!!!

Let me throw this out:

The (much improved) replacement Cavalier is about 2 years out. You just inherited a terrific mess at GM's automotive side, yet being a business, your job depends on sales volume &/or profit. The Cavalier is the best selling car, not just at one division, but the whole company. Your bosses (the board of directors & company chairmen) top goal is to gain market share before the new improved models come out. Beyound not having a Neon SR/T-fast car, and the lack of aftermarket support the way Honda does, what would you do differently, and why is seeing the Cavalier outselling everyone but Honda bad? :think:

Being that Cavalier's competition is no quicker as a group, costs up to $5000 more ($14K Cavalier base vs Honda's $19K), meanwhile outselling the $12,000 Focus, I really don't see where the problem is.

Mustang isn't better than Camaro, but more people wanted them, therefore, no Camaro. Cavalier isn't better than all of the competition (but far & away better then that Korean car mentioned earlier), but more people want one.

Just because it isn't one's particular taste doesn't mean Cavalier is a bad car, just a cheap, dependable, unexciting one. I can't name one current competitor beyound the new Civic or upcomming SR/T Neon that has "street credibility" without having to resort to the aftermarket, but then we start talking about used cars and a different group of people (no one is going to buy a car, then go void the warranty by adding aftermarket parts on the engine).

So as far as Cavalier's 90% sales increase I say: :D :D :metal: !

I agree with the others. When a car like that is your best seller, that should be enough right there to tell you things ain't right.

They are actually helping people get into those types of cars rather than musclecars and making the market for other cars bigger in that buyer age. The Camaro has to be affordable for people in their like mid 20's that want to buy a new car like that and make them faster or go to the track and whatever. That is suppossed to be their thing and their scene, thats what should start it off for lots more years of fun with real cars. What they had and have now doesn't do any of that. Of course there is many that like previous Gen's or cars from way back and only want the used 1's they don't make anymore, but still. Make it affordable and interesting and you'll get the sales, and we all know a Camaro can be that.

Lets see, GM offered a Z-28 at about a $23k starting price and with special deals, tlking te dealer down, it is not hard to get one under $20k.HELLO a brand freakin new LS1 Z for that price, how much cheaper should they have gone??? The market IS NOT THERE!!!!!

hrrmm....a base z, no, as in zero options, started at 23xxx in 02. that is assuming you found a zero optioned z sitting on a dealer lot, so you would have a chance to talk him down. $3k in discounts, not uncommon toward the end of the model year...once again if you find a base model which has been sitting for a bit The odds of that happening are not that good... i'd like to see a show of hands of people who bought 02 z's for under 20 g's...:rolleyes:

The market is not there???? mustang ring a bell? GTO, 350z, g35, possible upcoming supra, rx8, possible rx7... no market?

i know that gm has alienated me.... i have no desire to own any current gm vehicle other than a vette... why? i always answer that question with the redundent answer of "its a vette" <insert cheez d*ck statement like 'nuff said here> but what college kid has $45g's to drop on a new one...i'll give 'em props for their current truck line, but what the hell do i need w/ a truck? caddy, finally a gm division who has boldy gone where no other divison has gone before, CTS, Escalade(bling bling), Evoq, etc...hrrm...i'd rather have a bimmer tho. buick? nah, i still have a pulse. pontiac? it seems their current selling strategy is force-feeding...blah blah blah

imo, buyers my age(teens-20something) want performance and more importantly, they want it cheap. and quite frankly, gm has nothing to offer potential buyers of that segment. and to top it off, other than full size trucks and the vette, the competition always has something better(IMO)

bleh, im done, i good you bid evening:metal:

The cavi may sell allot, but what does it say about performance or image? it has "NONE". Other then the Vibe (a toyota basically), what other performance sport compact is GM offering? Just look at the below list. While i'm not a big fan of sport compacts, i respect everyone of the cars listed below. Unlike the cavi, these other manufacturers actually offer high performance versions of their sport compacts. By high performance, i don't mean the 10hp difference between the z24 and the cavalier Ls. That is something GM needs to do. The least they could do is offer a S/c version of the ecotec 2.2 as an option. I don't see how that'd hurt sales. If anything, it'll increase sales and possibly pull in Gm faithfuls who'd have gone over to Ford/chrysler/Import for their sporty sport compact. The current 2.4L z24 is just weak.

Vw GTi 1.8T/vr6
Neon SRT-4
Turbo PT cruiser
Lancer Evo
Svt focus (possible turbo version)
WRX and WRX Sti
Civic Si (Type R offered in other countries)
RSX & RSX-S
Sentra Spec-V
Mazda Protege Turbo
Celica and celica GT
Tibourne GT(sp??)
and the list goes on......

Gm/chevy needs to learn to capitalize on current market trends.

Cavalier (and this whole market) isn't about performance, it's about basic transportation. Of course, at a site named CamaroZ28.com we are inclined to desire affordable cars with a little more juice. At this moment, that means Monte Carlo SS. :rolleyes:

Focus I feel is no better than Cavalier. It has cool styling. But with the recalls that car has had, and Ford's recent record in quality, I wouldn't say it's a well made car. Neon isn't exactly the top dog quality or performance-wise either. Korean cars? Fergitaboutit. Japaneese cars, high in quality, but you're going to pay for it.

All the mystique in competing small cars involves either a specialty division (ie: SVO or Chysler's PVO) or the used car/after market areas. If GM did a performance version of Cavalier that ran with Neons SR/T, I KNOW you same people who are complaining about Cavalier would do a flip-flop, and suddenly Cavalier would be the greatest FWD car on earth, and that's my point.

Cavalier is doing what it's supposed to be doing in a market it's supposed to be doing it in. It's not a bad car, and for the price & what you get, it really is a steal compared to the cars it's competing against. But at the same time, GM desparately needs to create a performance version (I think the coupe is the best looking in this segment), and they shouldn't wait till the next version to do it.

I think a performance Cavalier coupe would have a greater impact than a turbo Impala SS would.

I'm not saying that chevy should turn the cavalier into some hotrod. I'm just saying they should follow suit and do what the other manufacturers have been doing. That being offering some high performance variant of their economy car. Keep the base models the same to bolster sales but offer a high performance model for the enthusiasts (cavi owners can be enthusiasts too). Something like a S/c option on the z24 would do wonders for the cars image as a potential performance sport compact. The upcoming neon Srt-4 has completely changed my image and thoughts on the neon. From pos (imo) to a legitimate contender. From not getting any respect to getting plenty. The car sounds like it'll "almost" hang with Lt-1's.

These little hot economy based cars are to the current generation what the the mustang/camaro were to the previous generations. Their popularity has soared tremendously. I just think it's odd that chevy isn't really taking advantage of this. Every other manufacturer is.

And do something about the styling PLEASE. Have you guys seen the upcoming versions (BARF).

I am glad to see Cavalier sales up. Why wouldn't you be? They help GM's CAFE averages, which could have a huge impact on whether the F-body comes back with a V8 (or at all for that matter). Are you in the market to buy a car such as the Cavi? If not, why do you care?? The car serves its purpose very well in my opinion. It is drastically boosting GM's market share, which at the moment is GM's 2nd highest goal (behind making $$$). So IMHO some of you guys need to calm down and stop letting out your F-body frustrations on the poor little pathetic Cavi.

Today's youth are tomarrows buyers. With that said, it's not a good idea to instill the "POS but cheap" image in their head for General Motors products. Give a kid a Cavalier and he will definatly develop that negative image of Chevy. He will envy his friends who drive more expensive, but much nicer, honda's, acuras, VW, toyotas, ect. Right now, chevy has nothing that the younger generation envys. They develop an image of chevy as the POS brand that they wouldn't ever buy if they had the money. GM needs to come out with something (preferrably a cheap muscle car) even if its just a upscale cavalier that sells very poorly but has the halo effect over the rest of the brand. If not, this generation will grow up never giving GM a second look.

Originally posted by guionM
Focus I feel is no better than Cavalier. It has cool styling. But with the recalls that car has had, and Ford's recent record in quality, I wouldn't say it's a well made car. Neon isn't exactly the top dog quality or performance-wise either. Korean cars? Fergitaboutit. Japaneese cars, high in quality, but you're going to pay for it.

"Japanese cars, high in quality, but you're going to pay for it."

Honda Civic BASE MSRP $12,810.00.

Cavalier Coupe Starting at $14,590.

Even if the Honda cost more, I would much rather pay the difference. Why? you might ask. Reputation. Quality. Reliability.

I would much rather invest $14k in a $14k car than $14k in a $7k car.

If gm would really like to impress me, put out a cavalier w/ a 10yr/100k mile warranty. Impractical? Why? Because after the 36k miles and stuff starts falling apart, gm would lose profits for after warranty repairs? Not impractical to me. Simply because if gm is backing their car with a 10yr/100k mile warranty, I tend to believe that they are putting out a quality product. And if its not... theyll fix it for free. They would make up the profit in new and returned customers.

Ive had a '97 TransAm for two years now. I paid $17k (keep in mind that brand new, they ran for roughly $30k) for that car. Obviously I'm going to take care of that car the best I can. Was it run hard? Sometimes. Its a Trans Am. But by no means was it ever ragged out. It has almost 80k miles on it. With a four year loan, I've paid more money in repairs alone for that car than I have actually paid on the loan itself. Possibly a lemon? Who knows? I love the car. Its just that I would definitely like to see a little more reliability in a $30k car.

You want sales? Put out a reasonable priced performance car that is quality! My TWO cents.
dave

Originally posted by slt
Today's youth are tomarrows buyers. With that said, it's not a good idea to instill the "POS but cheap" image in their head for General Motors products. Give a kid a Cavalier and he will definatly develop that negative image of Chevy. He will envy his friends who drive more expensive, but much nicer, honda's, acuras, VW, toyotas, ect. Right now, chevy has nothing that the younger generation envys. They develop an image of chevy as the POS brand that they wouldn't ever buy if they had the money. GM needs to come out with something (preferrably a cheap muscle car) even if its just a upscale cavalier that sells very poorly but has the halo effect over the rest of the brand. If not, this generation will grow up never giving GM a second look.

I really don't understand the point you are making. "Give a kid a Cavalier & he will definantly develop that negative image of Chevy"?? This isn't a case of mom & pop buying (or forcing feeding) a 16 year old boy a car here. If mom & dad have the cash to buy teenagers brand new cars, I suspect they are spoiled enough to get the type of cars they want, not what they don't want. They tend to buy a used car for a kid in that case, usually what he wants (within the confines of insuring it).

This group includes young people, early to mid-20s, (and some older) on a budget who don't want to take a risk buying a used car, but want a car that's cheap, has a warranty, has a lot of standard equipment on it, any they can trade in on something else when they move up. Acuras aren't in this class, and all the others can't keep up with Cavalier in sales. Obviously they chose this car over the others. Regardless as to our opinion of them, it's what's selling. As they say, you can't argue with success. :p

Silverbullet, you are right about the price differences, I mistakenly went off the Civic Si ($19 grand). But consider that with Cavalier you get Air Conditioning, anti theft AM/FM stereo
with a CD player and tachometer which costs extra on Honda. You also get ABS on Cavalier which isn't even available on Honda, so it's a tradeoff.

But Honda Civic is still #1 (just ahead of Cavalier) in this automotive class. What's the other competetor's excuses? :D

Excuse the grammer & spelling lapses, I've been up since 3 this morning. :(

Today's youth are tomarrows buyers. With that said, it's not a good idea to instill the "POS but cheap" image in their head for General Motors products. Give a kid a Cavalier and he will definatly develop that negative image of Chevy. He will envy his friends who drive more expensive, but much nicer, honda's, acuras, VW, toyotas, ect. Right now, chevy has nothing that the younger generation envys. They develop an image of chevy as the POS brand that they wouldn't ever buy if they had the money. GM needs to come out with something (preferrably a cheap muscle car) even if its just a upscale cavalier that sells very poorly but has the halo effect over the rest of the brand. If not, this generation will grow up never giving GM a second look.



I agree with that statement. Parents often don't give their kids a choice when they buy them a new vehicle. All parents care about is cheap, reliable, safe transportation - which the Cavi certainly is.

They (parents) don't give a crap whether the vehicle is "cool" or appeals to the younger generation. It is simply a tool to get their little Johnny or Sally from point A to point B. That said, its easy to see why teens don't aspire to own GM vehicles. After owning a plain Cavi that you beat on for years in your teens, and with nothing really exiting on the upscale side (reasonably priced) to move up to, why would they give GM a second look?

Originally posted by guionM
I really don't understand the point you are making. "Give a kid a Cavalier & he will definantly develop that negative image of Chevy"?? This isn't a case of mom & pop buying (or forcing feeding) a 16 year old boy a car here.

16 year olds just want a car, they don't really car too much what it is, as long as it is a car. They have no experience with them and either get what their parents buy or give them, or whatever they can afford. For whatever reason, alot of them do end up in a cavalier. Ask any cavalier owner what they think about their car. They soon learn that it sucks. Hell, I drove a Ford Tempo when I turned 16. Do you think I'm going to do that again?? ;) It's going to take alot to get them to by GM again after that experience.

Acuras aren't in this class

The acura RSX/Integra is one of, if not the, top car in the younger generations mind. It is well built, holds value, and has developed quite the reputation due to its class leading quality and driving dynamics, especially with the halo effect from the type-S and type-R. This generation is going to grow up and buy acuras/hondas, not Impala SS's

Regardless as to our opinion of them, it's what's selling. As they say, you can't argue with success. :p

You are operating under the false premise that just b/c Its selling well right now, that it is a good car. That thought is a pitfall for any company, and GM is one of them. People buy cavaliers b/c they don't know any better. It's like all those retards that bought geo metros. Go and ask any of these people what they think of their cars. They learn quickly as it begins to fall apart or when they try to sell it and get some money out of it. I would be interested to see the number of repeat buyers for the cavalier.

But consider that with Cavalier you get Air Conditioning, anti theft AM/FM stereo with a CD player and tachometer which costs extra on Honda. You also get ABS on Cavalier which isn't even available on Honda, so it's a tradeoff.

My dad used to think these things sold cars. This generation will put in their own stereos and could care less about ABS. Honda's also dont come standard with ridiculously cheap plastic interiors or poor build quality, or even crappy driving dynamics.

With all due respect, guionM, the cavalier DOES SUCK. You can make the arguement that this is just my opinion, buy there are far more people out there that consider this a fact. It doesn't matter how many of these turds they sell, it's still a turd.

But this isn't even my point. GM has NO/ZERO entry level cars that appeal to the younger crowd. The best one is the GA and it still suffers from the "cheap GM" curse.

Bottom line: GM sells sh*tty cars and then wonders why toyota just passed them up as number one in the U.S. in car sales. GM sells lots of small cars but not very many midsize ones. So here is the golden question; where are all of these cavalier owners going after they sell their cars and upgrade????

Originally posted by slt
So here is the golden question; where are all of these cavalier owners going after they sell their cars and upgrade????

Malibu!:metal:

GM, late to the ball trying to enter the sport compact market, is trying to pitch the Cavalier as the vehicle to have is just plain wrong in my view.

They need some kind of new, entry-level car to do the job. Cavalier has no heritage other than being a basic, inexpensive, entry level GM car.

I'm a Camaro guy, so the import scene sometimes doesn't make sense to me. However, it seems reasonable that the General should to come to market with a new vehicle, with a new name to make a fresh start.

Trying to take an existing product with a generally poor reputation in your "target market" (best selling car or not) will take a tremendous amount of marketing to make it fly.

Just my $.02

slt, a couple of points I feel you missed.

First, Cavalier isn't bought by parents for kids. I cannot think of one 16 year old who had their parents buy a brand new car for them. Second, buyers under 21 are a small portion of new car sales. Less than 5% of total new car sales last I checked (it was actually closer to 2%, but I'll give the benefit of doubt here). When you start with $500+ monthly car payments & $200 or so in monthly car insurence till 21 or 25 years old, it's easy to see why. It's the used car market where this age group goes and this includes the $19K Acura.

Also, car buyers are not a bunch of bumpkins who buy whatever they are told. If that were the case, Yougos would still be around & Oldsmobile wouldn't be on life support. No one is kidnapped, told to buy a Cavalier & commits to 4 or 5 years of payments unless it's a car they want. They base their purchases on what their priorities are. It could be price & what you get for the money, it could how it's put together, it could be something to get from point A to B till that raise or promotion comes up. Just because you may not agree with their reasons doesn't mean they are stupid & buy whatever they are told. :)

The reason Cavaliers are selling is because Chevy put together a package that people want . Regardless as to if it's because of rebates, value, style, coupons, looks, or a combination or even all those reasons. You think they suck, and you are entitled to that opinion. I wouldn't buy one because I don't want FWD and they are way too slow for my tastes. Yet, my sister liked her's (her 1st new car), and after owning a Mustang for a few years, she copied me & bought a Camaro.

90% of car buyers are not brand loyal. They get what suits them at the moment. I bought my 1st 5.0 Mustang because it was cheap & fast (Z28's cost a bit more than Mustangs in the 80s). I bought a Thunderbird S/C because GM had nothing I wanted (let alone anything like it) at the time. I bought my Z28 because Ford seemed to be going backwards with Mustang. When I am ready to buy a car again, I'll see what's available & fits my priorities. Everyone does it, just different priorities. If a car falls apart, word gets out, & you have Yugo's ending. But Cavalier has been around almost as long as dirt ('82... same difference). If they were truly bad cars, word would have gotten around a few hundred times by now. :think:

As far as quality, Cavalier is about where Camaros & other GM cars are. In my opinion, Cavalier is weak in the powertrain area (economy vs horsepower), sex appeal area (they need a performance version more than Saddam needs a bomb shelter), and they have gone a really long time without a restyle, but as far as basic transportation for the masses, it's not bad.

Besides, the more they sell, the more money & CAFE credits for future V8 Monte Carlos & Camaros! :) :)

No. Not really. GM loses money on every one they sell. I'd be willing to bet the enormous sum of one dollar that Honda makes a profit on every civic they sell (except the hybrid). Same for toyota and the Corolla.

Not very many people WANT cavaliers. That's why they always have rebates out the ass and their resale value drops like a rock (with no air drag slowing it down).

Where's the variable valve timing?
Where's the rear disk brakes?
Is that still a beam axle out back?
How about the cheap interior materials?
How about the crummy fit and finish?
How about the sub par driving dynamics?
Where are the magazine awards?
How many red dots has consumer reports given it?
How about the structural ridgidity of that 1982 platform?

But at a cut rate price, they sure sell a lot of them - at the expense of GM's reputation. Does that make them a success story? I don't think so.

I again say the market is not there,you can say mustang, z, etc, just proves my point, there is too much competition and the market is not there. The market is there for the mustang, but it is not there for the f-body.

As for a Z under $20k, there is such a thing as ordering a car with no options, there were factory rebates all year not just at model end, and there was a $1000 special f-body rebate. I think you grossly missed my point, while everyone is getting excited over a $34k mustang and Nissan Z, you could have gotten a nicely equipped Z for $24k...10k cheaper, and sales still sucked!!!! people just do not want this car bad enough.

Originally posted by WERM
they sure sell a lot of them - at the expense of GM's reputation.

Exactly, then people go on to by hondas and toyotas when they move up. Isn't this the hole Hyundai is trying to dig themselves out of?

Originally posted by WERM
No. Not really. GM loses money on every one they sell. I'd be willing to bet the enormous sum of one dollar that Honda makes a profit on every civic they sell (except the hybrid). Same for toyota and the Corolla. [B]

:eek: If that's true, it's really pathetic! GM has one car that's doing very well, & they loose money on it. That seems extremely odd for a car whose chassis dates to 1982, and the body is over 5 years old.


[B]Not very many people WANT cavaliers. That's why they always have rebates out the ass and their resale value drops like a rock (with no air drag slowing it down).

Where's the variable valve timing?
Where's the rear disk brakes?
Is that still a beam axle out back?
How about the cheap interior materials?
How about the crummy fit and finish?
How about the sub par driving dynamics?
Where are the magazine awards?
How many red dots has consumer reports given it?
How about the structural ridgidity of that 1982 platform?

But at a cut rate price, they sure sell a lot of them - at the expense of GM's reputation. Does that make them a success story? I don't think so.

I am under no curcumstances trying to say that Cavalier is the best, most desireable car on the market. But all the points you made about Cavalier's shortcommings can be said about all f-bodies as well (except subpar driving dynamics) expecially when compared to imported sports cars (Camaro & Cavalier both depriciate about the same percentage over the first few years according to prices in Kelley's bluebook).

My point (under the.....false?..... assumption that GM made a profit on Cavalier) was that high Cavalier sales are good, people want it for whatever the reason (Yugos, Huyndais, & Dawoos are cheaper, Mitsubishi is better made, and Focus is more "cool", but Cavalier still outsells them), and it helps with CAFE numbers, meaning more room to bring back more performance in other models. I still believe they are decent cars because of the experences of my sister & other owners I know (though they aren't exciting enough for me). I also confess that I think the coupe is the only small FWD car that actually looks good :eek: .

But, I'll concede that I probally have the minority opinion on this subject. I respect your opinions Werm, slt, and everyone else on this subject. I agree to disagree with ya. :) :cool:

"(Yugos, Huyndais, & Dawoos are cheaper, Mitsubishi is better made, and Focus is more "cool", but Cavalier still outsells them)"

No, they haven't made Yugos in years. Point was they were sold at firesale prices & they still couldn't sell for more than a year before people stopped buying them because of poor quality.

Originally posted by guionM :eek: If that's true, it's really pathetic! GM has one car that's doing very well, & they loose money on it. That seems extremely odd for a car whose chassis dates to 1982, and the body is over 5 years old.

Hard to believe, yet true. They lose more than $2,000 on every one they sell. Multiply that by how many they sell... :eek:

http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/GM-Goal-More-SUVs.htm


They may be decent cars, but decent doesn't cut it anymore in today's market. "Good" is the cost of entry into todays car market. And as far as Camaro, you could easily make an argument that the market perception of this car (poorly built, poor handling dinosaur, unreliable, gas guzzler, etc.) hurt GM as much as it helped. GM wasn't willing to pump up sales by incentiv-izing the hell out of them (or redesigning them - those batards! :mad: ), so they were discontinued. Most people here know the truth about the cars, but market perception is another story.

GM lost a generation years ago, and it's still happening. GM's continuing refusal to connect with youthfull buyers by building budget performance cars, both traditional RWD, and FWD has come to an all time low. ford continues to evolve the mustang and can't build them fast enouph. The focus successfully captured an entire gen. of young buyers. ford continues to build high performance trucks while GM has none. Today you can't dig up a teenager driving a GM product, i wonder why.


2000 Ram Air T/A
92 Firebird
79 Z/28

Everyone is picking on the Cavalier, and although I agree with a lot of points about it (DESPERATLY needs a new platform and interior) the quality issue as it relates to bringing in new buyers could be applied to the Focus as well. The Focus hasn't exactly been the zenith of quality since it was introduced, but I guess since it has the "coolness" advantage and SVT version it will attract and hold those young buyers to Ford products(?) That doesn't make much sense to me.

Read that article Werm. Seems alot of what's in there is obsolete. Just 2 examples: Zarella saying that GM wouldn't push for 30% of the market anymore, and that they were going to decrease production of Cavalier.

But I also see a sort of twisted logic that still seems to be playing out. It seems that GM is working on their vehicles via trickle down method. It seems they are working on their most profitable vehicles first, & working down the line from there:

1. Trucks
2. Cadillac & Corvette
3. Buick & Pontiac
4. Chevrolet
5. Specialty cars, like Camaro & Monte Carlo (& GTO?)..

:think:

[i]Originally posted by guionM
Read that article Werm. Seems alot of what's in there is obsolete. Just 2 examples: Zarella saying that GM wouldn't push for 30% of the market anymore, and that they were going to decrease production of Cavalier.


True it is dated, but I my point was that they lose money on the cars. I bet they aren't making any more money on them now, with increased rebates and 0% financing. :think:
:eek:

First, Cavalier isn't bought by parents for kids. I cannot think of one 16 year old who had their parents buy a brand new car for them.



:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, its becoming the norm in affluent suburbia.

I live next to a high school. The student parking lot is absolutely filled with new Sunfires, Cavis, etc.

actuall,y i read on detnews.com that the cavilier this year with some tweaks is selling pretty good..

Originally posted by Silverhawk
:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, its becoming the norm in affluent suburbia.

I live next to a high school. The student parking lot is absolutely filled with new Sunfires, Cavis, etc.

I'm the only one who drives a 4th gen in my school! Its filled with Neons, Cavaliers, Sunfire, Civics, Mustangs and rusty cars.
Even my friend drives a 2002 Neon. I don't get those people.. I'd rather drive a $2000 Camaro than a brand new 4 banger...

GM will never capture the sport compact market. The whole ghastly trend was started by freaks whose budget or parents required them to buy Hondas. A Honda was the obvious choice at the time because of superior reliability compared to early 90's GM's. Then these goofballs wanted a little more speed. Where things went awry is when these guys started thinking that their Civics were fast now. It also helped that Japanese engines had different specs, which sounds exotic to the less intelligent. So people started changing to Japanese spec parts and all of the sudden: WOW super exotic! Unfortunately, the new generation of sissified young American sheeple jumped on the bandwagon, sneering at all American cars. Especially the mighty General Motors. So Honda became the standard. Not Toyota, not Nissan. Certainly not GM or Ford. Imagine how we would sneer if Honda built a half a**ed rwd V8 car. Same thing as the Z24. As far as the F - body, when I was in high school a few years ago Mustangs were all the rage. It seems people don't like to be different, so everyone wanted a GT or Cobra. Mustangs are cheaper by far, which doesn't help matters. What GM needs to do for a 5th gen is improve body design so that a driver can halfway see the corners of the car, update features ( man those power windows are slow ) , and ADVERTISE! They need to leave sport compacts to the crowd that thinks rock and roll sucks and pants hanging off the arse are cool. GM needs to fire a whole lot of idiot designers and engineers, basically.

I wouldn't fire any designers or engineers. Someone tells them what to do and that's where the problem is. The designers want to express themselves & the engineers would make vehicles depenable as tanks if costs weren't a consideration. But you had the lowest common denominator mentality at GM for some time. The cheapest to produce vehicle, assembled in the fastest way possible, that offends as few people as it can. That's the recipie for dull, low quality cars which was GM. And because of it's massive size, things don't change easily.

The view that American cars are inferior didn't start with the early 90's Honda, but in the late 70's, and continues to this day. Parents wanted to buy a cheap, reliable used car for their kids, and Hondas were all the above and dirt cheap to insure. As for the fox Mustangs, there were seemingly millions of them, so anyone with a part time job could find one cheap.

Then there's the aftermarket. F-Bodies are good, but there are literally dozens of enthusiast magazines for Hondas, Mustangs, and small imports of almost any brand, advertizing a ton of aftermarket companies. That's what being young and having a car was always about, getting one cheap, and customzing it to your taste.

There is probally alot more tuned imports out here than elswhere, and though it isn't what I'd have, I like what some of the kids have done to their cars. They brag too much (which at times bugs me), but then again, we all had the kids who did the same when we were in high school.

The facelifted 2003 Cavalier is what I would call an "Ugly American." The 2002 model certainly racked up a decent sales tally, but if you take away the heavy incentivization and the CAFE offsets, this loss leader would have dissappeared in a heartbeat.

The Honda Civic is the entry level car to beat, hands down. The twentysomething buyers that are making that first buying decision are drawn towards the Civic, and rightly so. These cars are mechanically bullet proof, have good resale values, and even a credible image.

Guess what? The Civic doesn't need huge buyer incentives. People actually want these cars, unlike the Cavalier, which is often forced upon customers by the omnipresent "Special Finance Manager." People typically drive away in a new Cavalier because of financial and credit circumstances - compare that with your average Honda buying experience.

Originally posted by redzed
The facelifted 2003 Cavalier is what I would call an "Ugly American." The 2002 model certainly racked up a decent sales tally, but if you take away the heavy incentivization and the CAFE offsets, this loss leader would have dissappeared in a heartbeat.

The Honda Civic is the entry level car to beat, hands down. The twentysomething buyers that are making that first buying decision are drawn towards the Civic, and rightly so. These cars are mechanically bullet proof, have good resale values, and even a credible image.

Guess what? The Civic doesn't need huge buyer incentives. People actually want these cars, unlike the Cavalier, which is often forced upon customers by the omnipresent "Special Finance Manager." People typically drive away in a new Cavalier because of financial and credit circumstances - compare that with your average Honda buying experience.

Who needs huge buyer incentives when you have a good image & crappy transmissions?

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2002/september/20020923_dai_warrenty.xml

Hondas are overrated nowadays. Their quality, dealer service, and now their transmissions leave more than a little to be desired. ;) :P

Besides that ugly restyled front end & a lack of real power, I'd say Cavalier isn't too much of a loosing proposition (unless you are a GM accountant). :D

Originally posted by guionM
Who needs huge buyer incentives when you have a good image & crappy transmissions?

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2002/september/20020923_dai_warrenty.xml

Hondas are overrated nowadays. Their quality, dealer service, and now their transmissions leave more than a little to be desired. ;) :P

Besides that ugly restyled front end & a lack of real power, I'd say Cavalier isn't too much of a loosing proposition (unless you are a GM accountant). :D


http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirg21_20020921.htm

Honda finished second to Toyota Motor Corp. in the most recent J.D. Power & Associates study of initial quality, an auto industry benchmark. Between 1990 and 2000, the most recent year for which full statistics are available, Honda had 32 safety recalls, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. General Motors Corp., the largest automaker, had 334 in that period , the agency said.

Originally posted by WERM

http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirg21_20020921.htm

Honda finished second to Toyota Motor Corp. in the most recent J.D. Power & Associates study of initial quality, an auto industry benchmark. Between 1990 and 2000, the most recent year for which full statistics are available, Honda had 32 safety recalls, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. General Motors Corp., the largest automaker, had 334 in that period , the agency said.

I've come across alot of people who were unhappy with the way they were treated at Honda dealers. The common theme seemed to be to the effect of the dealers acted like they were doing the customer a favor. Maybe that's just in Cali.

At any rate, while I was makeing my lame defense of Cavalier, it seems Saturn is the one to really watch: http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01341292 .

A 200hp Saturn coupe is just what GM needs to get into the tuner market!

Originally posted by WERM

http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirg21_20020921.htm

Honda finished second to Toyota Motor Corp. in the most recent J.D. Power & Associates study of initial quality, an auto industry benchmark. Between 1990 and 2000, the most recent year for which full statistics are available, Honda had 32 safety recalls, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. General Motors Corp., the largest automaker, had 334 in that period , the agency said.

I've come across alot of people who were unhappy with the way they were treated at Honda dealers. The common theme seemed to be to the effect of the dealers acted like they were doing the customer a favor. Maybe that's just in Cali.

At any rate, while I was makeing my lame defense of Cavalier, it seems Saturn is the one to really watch: http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01341292 .

A 200hp Saturn coupe is just what GM needs to get into the tuner market!

Whoo Hooo!! :rolleyes: Tuners, LOL, whatever. :D