Satun Ion Redline Disappoints...will the Cobalt SS be different?

http://www.redlineforums.com/showthread.php?p=452#post452

Made 197hp to the wheels, but only 169 ft/lbs. Not near enough to hang with an SRT-4. GM missed their mark with this car IMO....will the Cobalt SS be any different?

It does have some nice front seats.

Edit: What the hell are all the gauges doing in the center of the console?

*bump*

For the weekday crew :)

Surprise. GM should push for the tuner market for its own viability, but they certainly don't appear to be trying very hard. And I also agree that center dash guages are awful.

i dont think gm really had the tuner market in mind for this car. IMO they really shouldnt put much effort towards the tuner market anyway, it will start to die down soon. the v8 RWD cars are making a return and a 300hp neon wont mean crap in the next few years. IMO anyway.

Actually those #'s aren't that bad... 94.5

I always thought the EcoTecs would never be the SRT-4 killers many people thought they would be...

If they're anywhere near as modifiable as the supercharger 3800, they're gonna be handful!

Lets see what the smaller Cobalt does.

Must have serious traction problems. Similar 0-60 to a Grand Am GT but blows it away in trap speed.

Chip, blower pulley, full exhaust... maybe an LSD ;)

They claim that having guages in the center doesn't distract you as much while driving. I'd have to argue that one. As for the engine, the Ectotec has proven itself to handle high amounts of power, but I look for it to go the way of the Quad 4 HO. As for the SC, you can buy those over the counter for the 2.4 I4 that's in just about everything that GM sells. I KNOW that they could have made better power stock, but they are going to leave it to the after market which isn't all that bad. For example, you can buy polished housings for the 3800 SC that give you 20 extra hp with the stock pulley! And then a smaller pulley is another 20 hp with just the 3.4".
The seats are pretty cool though.

Who cares if it beats the SRT4 or not? 197whp for a car that light, around 2500-2700lbs or so, I'm thinking, is pretty good. I'll have to drive one.

The article claims it weighs over 2900

They should have made it turbo.

Originally posted by 87camracer
i dont think gm really had the tuner market in mind for this car. IMO they really shouldnt put much effort towards the tuner market anyway, it will start to die down soon. the v8 RWD cars are making a return and a 300hp neon wont mean crap in the next few years. IMO anyway.

Since when?

Half of the affordable V8 performance cars were KILLED 2 years ago while Japanese companies are getting more bold with their USDM offerings (Evo, STi, RX-8, 350Z, etc.).

Exactly how is this market dying and where is the great comeback?

Originally posted by Dan Oldham
Who cares if it beats the SRT4 or not? GM had better care, if they expect to sell any of them. It's supposed to be a direct competitor, and yet it gets mopped. GM dropped the ball, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Dan Oldham
197whp for a car that light, around 2500-2700lbs or so, I'm thinking, is pretty good. I'll have to drive one. It's nowhere near 2500-2700lbs. It's several hundred pounds heavier.

I'd much rather have the SRT-4. Of course that isn't saying a whole lot. But it counts for something.:p

WTF are these companies thinking when they put all the guages in the center of the dash?

Is it just me or does the Saturn Ion seem like the car equivalent to a disposable camera?:confused:

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/pramundo/43704_scc_redline_pg3.jpg

this is what it looks like with an engine fire :D


ummm... the seats are kinda cool. but the gauges? down and to the right is less distracting than down? say again over? maybe its supposed to be for giving the officer an excuse as to why you were speeding?


mmmmm molded plastic..... *drools*

I like the idea of a supercharger simply because you have a nice broad torque curve. Downside? Limited performance gains. A turbo is a lot easier to make power with than a supercharger. Don't get me wrong, I do like the supercharger, and I honestly think that they went with that simply for reliability purposes. I mean, if you can go to your dealer, buy a SC for your cavalier, and keep your warranty, speed isn't what they're concerned with.

Originally posted by MrBonus
They should have made it turbo.

Yup... they should have. I'm surprised that i4 could turn the supercharger.

Originally posted by Drive XR7
Yup... they should have. I'm surprised that i4 could turn the supercharger.

The Mini can be had with a blown 4 banger.

They obviously have some work to do still. The engine is hitting redline before it hits peak power, now that's just retarded :rolleyes: Considering the Cobalt has the exact same engine... it probably will also have the same problem, on top of that they're bleading off boost pressure at high rpm's. How do they expect to compete with a half baked set-up like that?
Sure the Cobalt will be lighter, and faster ( my Cav weighs in at a bit over 2500) but I really doubt it will be anywhere near the SRT-4.
I know there are a lot of people making very good power (as much as, if not more then the SRT-4) using Turbo'd ECO's in Cavaliers.... so it might actually be better to get the regular 2.2 ECO or maybe the 2.4 ECO and turbo it yourself... then to buy the 2.0SC

Originally posted by MrBonus
Since when?

Half of the affordable V8 performance cars were KILLED 2 years ago while Japanese companies are getting more bold with their USDM offerings (Evo, STi, RX-8, 350Z, etc.).

Exactly how is this market dying and where is the great comeback?

are we living in the past? they died 2 years ago but that doesnt mean there arent any coming out.

400hp GTO
400HP vette
500hp vette
625hp vette
400hp 5th gen
possible 500+hp 5th gen
500hp cobra
390hp cobra
500+hp lightning
500+hp ford GT
300+hp mustang

yup the v8 rwd performance market is dead. i personally feel the import craze will start dying off once these cars start hitting the streets and become affordable. personal opinion tho.

Originally posted by 87camracer
are we living in the past? they died 2 years ago but that doesnt mean there arent any coming out.

400hp GTO
400HP vette
500hp vette
625hp vette
400hp 5th gen
possible 500+hp 5th gen
500hp cobra
390hp cobra
500+hp lightning
500+hp ford GT
300+hp mustang

yup the v8 rwd performance market is dead. i personally feel the import craze will start dying off once these cars start hitting the streets and become affordable. personal opinion tho.

The only cars that normal people can afford that are ACTUALLY ON THE STREET on the last are the Cobra and the Z06.

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
GM had better care, if they expect to sell any of them. It's supposed to be a direct competitor, and yet it gets mopped. GM dropped the ball, plain and simple.

It's nowhere near 2500-2700lbs. It's several hundred pounds heavier.

Regardless of what GM did or didn't do, the car will sell. Even if it weighs 2900lbs, it's still a decent performing car for the money. The SRT4 will probably last about 40,000 miles before it starts falling apart.

Maybe the Saturn Red Line isn't as fast as the SRT4, but you can almost guarantee that it will be more reliable.

Originally posted by Dan Oldham
The SRT4 will probably last about 40,000 miles before it starts falling apart. Maybe the Saturn Red Line isn't as fast as the SRT4, but you can almost guarantee that it will be more reliable. What the hell are you smoking? The turbo 2.4 was deemed reliable enough for police use, and I can't think of anyone harder on vehicles than them.

Originally posted by 87camracer
are we living in the past? they died 2 years ago but that doesnt mean there arent any coming out.

400hp GTO
400HP vette
500hp vette
625hp vette
400hp 5th gen
possible 500+hp 5th gen
500hp cobra
390hp cobra
500+hp lightning
500+hp ford GT
300+hp mustang

yup the v8 rwd performance market is dead. i personally feel the import craze will start dying off once these cars start hitting the streets and become affordable. personal opinion tho.

Marauder will most likely get a blown 4.6 from 03/04 Cobra. Maybe the leftovers after 06 Cobra moves up to a S/c 5.4. Chrysler should have a Hemi powered Charger, Magnum, and 300C out within a year. There's also rumors that the cougar will come back on a Mustang platform and it might very well get the same v8 engines. There's also the possibility of us seeing some of Holden and Ford of Ausi's creations (other than GTO) here stateside too and i know this is being considered.

So yeah, it is far from dead. If anything, v8's are making a comeback. But sport compacts are hot and will remain hot as well. How long? None knows, but they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
What the hell are you smoking? The turbo 2.4 was deemed reliable enough for police use, and I can't think of anyone harder on vehicles than them.


Yeah, some import mag said it was built like a tank. Supposed to be a really solid 4 banger.

But reliability is yet to be known though. The previous N/A neons didn't exactly have a reputation for reliability, but i think DC built this one right.

Several magazines have had their hands inside the 2.4 Hot Rod (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0309_srt/index.html) is one of them, as is Sport Compact Car (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0310scc_projneon/index.html).

The SRT-4 is one stout 4-banger. It may even be better built than the 4G63.

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
What the hell are you smoking? The turbo 2.4 was deemed reliable enough for police use, and I can't think of anyone harder on vehicles than them.

We'll see how well they hold up.

Originally posted by MrBonus
The SRT-4 is one stout 4-banger. It may even be better built than the 4G63.

Too bad they only rev to 5,500 :p

Originally posted by robvas
Too bad they only rev to 5,5000 :p

Wow. It must be REALLY well built to rev to 55 thousand RPMs. :p

Originally posted by robvas
Too bad they only rev to 5,500 :p The redline is 6 grand you pudiferous bitch!

of course, it doesn't make power above 5,500, so you're actually right

Actually, if the Cobalt weighs the same as the Cavalier, 200 to the ground is in the 13's..... :cool:
Doesn't the SRT-4 run 14's? (stock)?

Something is wrong here as the magazine article does get around to mentioning.

200hpo to the wheels for that weight and it should be faster.

I will have to reserve judgement until some more magazines get a car to test.

As far as not being as fast as the SRT-4 I will say this:

1. That car is damn fast. Nothing else in its class comes (or price range) comes close.

2. GM didn't setout to take on the SRT-4.
Now that might be a mistake but consider this.
Just becasue one car is slower then another doens't make it a bad car. Or an undesirable car. If you like the car and its fsast enough for YOU--then you'll probably buy.

The LS1 F-bodies stomped all over the Mustangs yet still sold less.
Moral of the story? Hp does not = sales. And GM wants sales.

Saying that, I hope they do manage to pump up the power.
Add a LSD and use a Blown (or turbo) 2.4L Eco-tec

I don't care who thinks the Ion Redline is a dissapointment, I would much rather have it than any other sport compact on the market right now. Looks cool, its fast (for what it is) and it makes a nice A to B car for a good price.

It is pretty disappointing, much like the Silverado SS. Im not quite sure of GM's too-little-too-late strategy aside from the Vette, but evidently there's a bean counter somewhere that thinks its a good idea. Hopefully that changes as the American Revolution continues.

I WISH GM WOULD STOP MAKING THESE POS CARS I just really hate 4 cyls, there dumping money into this car that is crap. it hits the red line before peak power how dumb is that. I don`t care how fast these little 4 bangers are I will never be imperessed by them I don`t care if it puts out 400hp it still a 4cyl.

They stop making the Camaros and Firebirds and we get this:rolleyes: GM stops making an american icon and builds a honda fighter. I`m a die hard GM fan but it`s getting harder everyday the Mopar camp is looking better and better:(

If GM built a 5th gen do you think it would hit the limiter before peak power.....NO do you think it would turn like a plow.....NO do you think it would eat all these damn 4 bangers alive YES!!!

The sad part is I`ll get flammed for this but here it goes I HATE THE SRT-4 and the SATURN RED LINE. god forbid I make fun of a crappy 4 banger on a Z28 board. I will aways be in the Z28 camp showin these so called fast 4 bangers how it`s done with a good old CHEVY V8:bow:

If there's a market for em, GM oughta go ahead and offer a 4-banger like this. However, I wish they actually competed at least with the other offerings. It's lame to come out with this Redline and Cobalt SS that will get dropkicked by the SRT-4. WTF. Same thing as someone else mentioned with the slowass Silverado SS that doesn't even compete with the Lightning or SRT10 Ram. Stupid GM...

Originally posted by Meccadeth
I don't care who thinks the Ion Redline is a dissapointment, I would much rather have it than any other sport compact on the market right now. Looks cool, its fast (for what it is) and it makes a nice A to B car for a good price.

:bow:

Originally posted by OP
Actually, if the Cobalt weighs the same as the Cavalier, 200 to the ground is in the 13's..... :cool:
Doesn't the SRT-4 run 14's? (stock)?

The ION runs a 15.something....gonna take a lot of weight to get to the 13's!!

Or some traction...

The Neon SRT4 runs 13.9-14.1 bone stock.

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28
I WISH GM WOULD STOP MAKING THESE POS CARS I just really hate 4 cyls, there dumping money into this car that is crap. it hits the red line before peak power how dumb is that. I don`t care how fast these little 4 bangers are I will never be imperessed by them I don`t care if it puts out 400hp it still a 4cyl.

They stop making the Camaros and Firebirds and we get this:rolleyes: GM stops making an american icon and builds a honda fighter. I`m a die hard GM fan but it`s getting harder everyday the Mopar camp is looking better and better:(

If GM built a 5th gen do you think it would hit the limiter before peak power.....NO do you think it would turn like a plow.....NO do you think it would eat all these damn 4 bangers alive YES!!!

The sad part is I`ll get flammed for this but here it goes I HATE THE SRT-4 and the SATURN RED LINE. god forbid I make fun of a crappy 4 banger on a Z28 board. I will aways be in the Z28 camp showin these so called fast 4 bangers how it`s done with a good old CHEVY V8:bow:


Now.....how do you feel about V6's? :D

I am guessing you have never driven a halway decent 4 cylinder.
Bet you that you'd be grining ear to ear after a ldrive in an SRT-4.

Hey, I like V8s too but I won't curse GM for making a 4 cylinder car.

GM cannot sit back and do nothing in such a popular market segment, and chastising them for participating is ridiculous.

This is more then a Z28 board and I think most people here support GMs effort to do new things.
I am pretty sure the Camaro will be back and then they will have
some fast cars to cover the market.

Originally posted by 87camracer
v8 RWD cars are making a return and a 300hp neon wont mean crap in the next few years. IMO anyway. nah, i don't see that happening for a number of reasons.

Originally posted by 305fan
This is more then a Z28 board and I think most people here support GMs effort to do new things.
I am pretty sure the Camaro will be back and then they will have
some fast cars to cover the market.

I'm all for some high powered forced induction 4's coming from GM. I think they should've put the S/C 3800 in the v6 camaros too.

I'd love for them to come out with some 4's with some serious potential for going fast.

I have no idea if this car will end up having REAL potential or not, but its interesting to say the least. It seemed to be making decent power all the way to redline and was still building.


Just an interesting thought. A stock DSM runs a 15 flat and makes less than 197hp to the wheels stock. :)


:bow:Jacki's brothers car (http://people.clemson.edu/~nanthon/gsx/videos/1177at120.mpg)

Originally posted by SaxRulez

Just an interesting thought. A stock DSM runs a 15 flat and makes less than 197hp to the wheels stock. :)


:bow:Jacki's brothers car (http://people.clemson.edu/~nanthon/gsx/videos/1177at120.mpg) I don't suppose AWD had anything to do with that, eh? :)

Originally posted by SaxRulez
I'm all for some high powered forced induction 4's coming from GM. I think they should've put the S/C 3800 in the v6 camaros too.

I'd love for them to come out with some 4's with some serious potential for going fast.


Just an interesting thought. A stock DSM runs a 15 flat and makes less than 197hp to the wheels stock. :)


:bow:Jacki's brothers car (http://people.clemson.edu/~nanthon/gsx/videos/1177at120.mpg)

Welllyou coudl put the internals form a GTP motor into a v6 f-body(been done) and run normal f-body supercharger instead of a roots style one(doesn't fit under cowl with ease) and have a supercharged f-body :)


Either way, this thing is not gonna compete with SRt-4... It runs 15s and wieghs 2900 lbs?

Why did they design the supercharged 4 banger, and not just put a fwd v6 in there and run the same numbers?

ehh... hopefully a turbo kit isn't hard....


This thing better at least be cheap as hell like $16-18k.... well below the SRT-4

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
I don't suppose AWD had anything to do with that, eh? :)

It would but the FWD cars run the same 1/4, stock, just at a higher trap :p

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
I don't suppose AWD had anything to do with that, eh? :)

:lol: maybe a little something :lol:

he dynoed his car at 378whp. that was at 19psi and hes running 23 now. so ~400whp I'd say.

I'm kinda curious how I'm going to make out when I go to the track this spring. This FWD stuff is ridiculously hard to launch. I've got it down now on the street, but I know its going to be considerably different at a track.

197 to the wheels is pretty good considering its rated at 205 at the crank. I'll wait till I see one with a pully and exhaust run the 1/4 to decide.

Originally posted by MustangEater82
Welllyou coudl put the internals form a GTP motor into a v6 f-body(been done) and run normal f-body supercharger instead of a roots style one(doesn't fit under cowl with ease) and have a supercharged f-body :)


Centrifugal? (sp?)


Originally posted by MustangEater82
Why did they design the supercharged 4 banger, and not just put a fwd v6 in there and run the same numbers?

Gas mileage? Weight distribution? ;)

Originally posted by SaxRulez


I'm kinda curious how I'm going to make out when I go to the track this spring. This FWD stuff is ridiculously hard to launch. I've got it down now on the street, but I know its going to be considerably different at a track. It'll be interesting. I bet at least one of the times you launch you will wheelhop bad enough to turn on the windshield wipers. At least that's what I did on my first run at the track :D

Originally posted by robvas
Centrifugal? (sp?)




Gas mileage? Weight distribution? ;)

yep centrigugal... I should have also specified 4th gen f-bodies, you can easily stick a roots style blower on other gens...


WEight distribution maybe, but gas mileage... I have a fealing a 3400 v6 will get better gas mileage then a blown ecotec.

The ION runs a 15.something....gonna take a lot of weight to get to the 13's!!

Or some traction...

The Neon SRT4 runs 13.9-14.1 bone stock.


I was just toying around with this website... it was right on when I put in the numbers for my car, so I think its pretty accurate.
http://www.fbody.com/calc.htm
According to that the Cobalt should easily be into the 13's if it is the same weight as the Cavalier it's replacing.

Originally posted by MustangEater82
WEight distribution maybe, but gas mileage... I have a fealing a 3400 v6 will get better gas mileage then a blown ecotec.

My 3400 drank teh gasoline

Originally posted by 305fan
Now.....how do you feel about V6's? :D

I am guessing you have never driven a halway decent 4 cylinder.
Bet you that you'd be grining ear to ear after a ldrive in an SRT-4.

Hey, I like V8s too but I won't curse GM for making a 4 cylinder car.

GM cannot sit back and do nothing in such a popular market segment, and chastising them for participating is ridiculous.

This is more then a Z28 board and I think most people here support GMs effort to do new things.
I am pretty sure the Camaro will be back and then they will have
some fast cars to cover the market.

I don`t mind V6`s and a S/C 3800 would be cool in a F-body.

The thing is GM gave up on the F-bodys, and they ate most other cars alive. What I hate is GM is turning into rice. If we still had the F-body then I wouldn`t care if they built a 4 cyl S/C econo box. Do you really think we`d be talkin about a damn 4 banger if we had a 5th gen I doubt it. The F-bodys ruled I`m sure if we had a 03 Z28 or SS it would`ve killed the Cobra.

Look at what Mopar has the Viper, the new Magum and the Ram SRT-10 500 hp in a TRUCK :bow:

Ford has the Cobra the new mustang look really cool (and thats big comin from me since I hate rustangs) and the new GT 500 and there bringin a new Shellby Cobra out

Chevy we have the Corvette thats it everything else sucks, Pontiac has the GTO thats cool but under powered. and we have to wait for the new 500hp Z06 till next year. GM was the leader in performance then bam there pussyfied and now that GM can`t make a car if there life depended on it (exept the Vette) ford and Dodge have takin the performance market and running away with it. Maybe GM`s performance died because John Moss retired.

So GM PLEASE BRING THE F-BODYS BACK!!!! . GM has proved they CAN`T buld a performance FWD 4 cyl. What do I say about that THANK GOD. So they NEED to go back to what they do best BIG V8`s in RWD platforms with 6 spd`s. AKA the F-BODY.

stock dsm will not put 197 out at the wheels.

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
It'll be interesting. I bet at least one of the times you launch you will wheelhop bad enough to turn on the windshield wipers. At least that's what I did on my first run at the track :D

pshhhht! I've done it on the street! :lol: managed it 2x now. These tires seem to grip really well. Still a pain to launch though. I'm going to get motormounts/window weld or something before I take it, wheelhop scares me :shame:

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28
I don`t mind V6`s and a S/C 3800 would be cool in a F-body.

The thing is GM gave up on the F-bodys, and they ate most other cars alive. What I hate is GM is turning into rice. If we still had the F-body then I wouldn`t care if they built a 4 cyl S/C econo box. Do you really think we`d be talkin about a damn 4 banger if we had a 5th gen I doubt it. The F-bodys ruled I`m sure if we had a 03 Z28 or SS it would`ve killed the Cobra.

Look at what Mopar has the Viper, the new Magum and the Ram SRT-10 500 hp in a TRUCK :bow:

Ford has the Cobra the new mustang look really cool (and thats big comin from me since I hate rustangs) and the new GT 500 and there bringin a new Shellby Cobra out

Chevy we have the Corvette thats it everything else sucks, Pontiac has the GTO thats cool but under powered. and we have to wait for the new 500hp Z06 till next year. GM was the leader in performance then bam there pussyfied and now that GM can`t make a car if there life depended on it (exept the Vette) ford and Dodge have takin the performance market and running away with it. Maybe GM`s performance died because John Moss retired.

So GM PLEASE BRING THE F-BODYS BACK!!!! . GM has proved they CAN`T buld a performance FWD 4 cyl. What do I say about that THANK GOD. So they NEED to go back to what they do best BIG V8`s in RWD platforms with 6 spd`s. AKA the F-BODY.

I see better now where you are coming from.

I still think the rush to judgement on the Redline should be delayed until we get more reviews and numbers. NOt sure how much I trust Sport compact.

If its 197hp to the wheels it shoud be in the 14's. Someone mentioned that the times were close to a Grand Am GT---and they are (off by 0.5sec or so) and the Grand Am weighs a few hundred pounds heavier, is an auto and makes only 175hp crank.

Given these facts it is hard to imagine why the Redline is in the 15's :confused:

Thing about GM is they are still very much of a conservative company. I believe they are doing better then Dodge and Ford.

Which is part of the reason why Dodge and Ford put out some pretty wild cars. They are desperate to draw attention to themselves. (and sales)

The GM performance division is still pretty young, so I wouldn't write them off just yet.

The Cavalier was so old it had to be replaced so its not like they had to build a whole new car when doing the SS Supercharged--just treak it up a few nothces. :confused:

Originally posted by 305fan
I still think the rush to judgement on the Redline should be delayed until we get more reviews and numbers. NOt sure how much I trust Sport compact. They were spot-on with the SRT-4. Even named it car of the year, so I see no reason not to trust them.

Originally posted by 305fan
NOt sure how much I trust Sport compact.


I could see not trusting them with review a RWD V8 pony car....but man, they are reviewing a compact sports car, i hope they know what they are talking about there.

geeze you guys are trusting! Want to buy some ocean front property in the desert??:D

I like a concensus and view Sport Compact as a rather extremist and biased (towards imports) car magazine.

but hey.....whatever;)

------
What the hell are you smoking? The turbo 2.4 was deemed reliable enough for police use, and I can't think of anyone harder on vehicles than them.
------

They also had a bunch of police Taurus's with the 3.8 in it. Those motors are junk.:o

Originally posted by 305fan

I like a concensus and view Sport Compact as a rather extremist and biased (towards imports) car magazine.

...but they still named the SRT-4, an American car as car of the year :confused:

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28
I WISH GM WOULD STOP MAKING THESE POS CARS I just really hate 4 cyls, there dumping money into this car that is crap. it hits the red line before peak power how dumb is that. I don`t care how fast these little 4 bangers are I will never be imperessed by them I don`t care if it puts out 400hp it still a 4cyl.

They stop making the Camaros and Firebirds and we get this:rolleyes: GM stops making an american icon and builds a honda fighter. I`m a die hard GM fan but it`s getting harder everyday the Mopar camp is looking better and better:(

If GM built a 5th gen do you think it would hit the limiter before peak power.....NO do you think it would turn like a plow.....NO do you think it would eat all these damn 4 bangers alive YES!!!

The sad part is I`ll get flammed for this but here it goes I HATE THE SRT-4 and the SATURN RED LINE. god forbid I make fun of a crappy 4 banger on a Z28 board. I will aways be in the Z28 camp showin these so called fast 4 bangers how it`s done with a good old CHEVY V8:bow:

first off as a non flame, if your gonna bash a car for how slow it is, you for damn sure need to have a car thats atleast as fast as the cars you are bashing.

now POS cars? how many people are dying to get a LG4 3rd gen? o yeah, none. how many people were dying to buy a 4th gen? 20k. 20 thousand. thats between TWO different makes, and EIGHT models! they could only sell 20 THOUSAND!!! obviously these cars didnt sell for a reason.

whats that reason? GM focused too much on performance. sure it fits our needs and thats why we own them. i would KILL to have a better interior, better rear end, better transmission. i would KILL to have a car that the paint doesnt look like i sand blasted the car. i would KILL to have a car thats slightly slower yet is higher quality. why? because i paid for something and didnt get my moneys worth thats why. GM has to make these "POS" cars because they sell well. if they didnt have these then there would be no vette, no gto, no future 385hp silverado ss. there wouldnt be performance. these are the bread and butter cars. these are the cars gm relies on to be money makers so they CAN appeal to the enthusiasts.

you may not ever be impressed by a 400hp 4 cylinder but other less close minded people are. hell im liking the new acuras that are making LT1 numbers with 2 less cylinders, worlds no GALAXIES better interiors and overall quality. what about 4 cylinders running with the hallowed 4th gen cars? dont even look at what these new "POS" cars would do to a 3rd gen in a straight line or even in the corners. cuz it wouldnt be pretty. and they have a warranty and good gas mileage as well as better reliability to boot.

whats wrong with GM joining a car market that is VERY VERY VERY popular? the sport compact market is BOOMING.the 2+2 V8 powered RWD market however was not. its starting to come back but not very fast. GM stopped producing the fbody because it had to. if you do a search in the 5th gen forum you will get PLENTY of answers to why it was stopped and when its coming back as well as how it will look.

so you keep "showin those 4 bangers how its done" with your mighty LG4. then wait till the day they actually race WITH you or you run across an import thats actually a performance model and not a parked econobox. :)

Given these facts it is hard to imagine why the Redline is in the 15's
It's not! I know they got it to run a 15.1 and blamed it on the gearing ( could very well be) BUT Cavaliers running naturally aspirated ECO's are running 15's... this car is deffinetly in the 14 second range atleast.

so you keep "showin those 4 bangers how its done" with your mighty LG4. then wait till the day they actually race WITH you or you run across an import thats actually a performance model and not a parked econobox.


__________________


You know whats funny? this guy goes around preching about close-minedness, the thowsa fit everytime someone says they don't like 4-cycl's or imports. Two things man,one its a free country and people have the right to say what they want with out you herasing them about it. Two if you don't like the anti-import sentemit ontheboard then leave. I don't go to a honda site, and start talking trash the complain when they don't agree with me. As for the lg4 a.ka 305 I run imports all day long, and bury them. Now the ralley cars ie: wrx's evloutions stuff like that, well to be truthful I bat about .500. Other than that I'm pretty happy with my 305, alot more than others:) So don't rag on the 305, it just the 350 little bro, thats all.

Originally posted by Shockley35
so you keep "showin those 4 bangers how its done" with your mighty LG4. then wait till the day they actually race WITH you or you run across an import thats actually a performance model and not a parked econobox.


__________________


You know whats funny? this guy goes around preching about close-minedness, the thowsa fit everytime someone says they don't like 4-cycl's or imports. Two things man,one its a free country and people have the right to say what they want with out you herasing them about it. Two if you don't like the anti-import sentemit ontheboard then leave. I don't go to a honda site, and start talking trash the complain when they don't agree with me. As for the lg4 a.ka 305 I run imports all day long, and bury them. Now the ralley cars ie: wrx's evloutions stuff like that, well to be truthful I bat about .500. Other than that I'm pretty happy with my 305, alot more than others:) So don't rag on the 305, it just the 350 little bro, thats all.
He was just pointing out how hilarious it is that a person who owns a car that runs a blistering 16 second quarter mile stock is bashing on 4 cylinders that would eat it alive.

A 305 lover and 4 cyl import lover battleing it out over which is better.. Kind of ironic. . :p

Originally posted by 87camracer
first off as a non flame, if your gonna bash a car for how slow it is, you for damn sure need to have a car thats atleast as fast as the cars you are bashing.

now POS cars? how many people are dying to get a LG4 3rd gen? o yeah, none. how many people were dying to buy a 4th gen? 20k. 20 thousand. thats between TWO different makes, and EIGHT models! they could only sell 20 THOUSAND!!! obviously these cars didnt sell for a reason.

whats that reason? GM focused too much on performance. sure it fits our needs and thats why we own them. i would KILL to have a better interior, better rear end, better transmission. i would KILL to have a car that the paint doesnt look like i sand blasted the car. i would KILL to have a car thats slightly slower yet is higher quality. why? because i paid for something and didnt get my moneys worth thats why. GM has to make these "POS" cars because they sell well. if they didnt have these then there would be no vette, no gto, no future 385hp silverado ss. there wouldnt be performance. these are the bread and butter cars. these are the cars gm relies on to be money makers so they CAN appeal to the enthusiasts.

you may not ever be impressed by a 400hp 4 cylinder but other less close minded people are. hell im liking the new acuras that are making LT1 numbers with 2 less cylinders, worlds no GALAXIES better interiors and overall quality. what about 4 cylinders running with the hallowed 4th gen cars? dont even look at what these new "POS" cars would do to a 3rd gen in a straight line or even in the corners. cuz it wouldnt be pretty. and they have a warranty and good gas mileage as well as better reliability to boot.

whats wrong with GM joining a car market that is VERY VERY VERY popular? the sport compact market is BOOMING.the 2+2 V8 powered RWD market however was not. its starting to come back but not very fast. GM stopped producing the fbody because it had to. if you do a search in the 5th gen forum you will get PLENTY of answers to why it was stopped and when its coming back as well as how it will look.

so you keep "showin those 4 bangers how its done" with your mighty LG4. then wait till the day they actually race WITH you or you run across an import thats actually a performance model and not a parked econobox. :)

I have too reply to this.

Well lets see I have takin a Acura RSX V-tech I put buses on that car.

Just to let you see where my Zed is in the power range I took out a 85 or so noch back Mustang 5L 5 spd.

If my frame wasn`t broke at the time I almost beat a 87+ 5L 5spd I had to let off because thre was traffic but I was catching him fast

I beat a 86 Z28 like he was standing still 305 auto

So your Damn str8 I`m gonna make fun of the SRT-4 why because I will ALWAYS stand behind the CHEVY V8

Oh and if you want to give me the $5000 I need to finish my 450hp 383 then we`ll see how much balls a SRT-4 has

I will keep showin the 4 bangers how it`s done with my lil LG4

Sorry but headers and a mild cam does not equal enough perfromance to beat the cars you have listed.

A stock LG4 is pretty bad (1982 with the 4 speed were a joke)--the 5 speed and 3.23s helps but not enough to take a lighter, 225hp Mustang.

Good luck with the 383 swap--that will do wonders.

Just noticed you are from Welland. Nice place. I was out at a car show there in Oct. Met up with a guy who had a black Formula 350 (orginal owner, 70K, a few mods, sweet car)

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28
Oh and if you want to give me the $5000 I need to finish my 450hp 383 then we`ll see how much balls a SRT-4 has

:lol: :lol: :lol: Wow your car is so fast 5 thousand dollars in the future! :bow:

Oh and that RSX wasn't racing, those are high 14 second cars bone stock.

Who remembers the little GM(Oldsmobile) Quad 4 naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine that made over 200 HP? Man, that was over 15 years ago! GM was the original 4-cylinder hot rod long before Hondas were being modded.

Put a turbo on THAT.

Greg

i have an 88 cutlass calais (olds/GM) with the 2.3L quad 4 supposedly it only makes 150hp that is underrated =D

not so bad for a 100$ beater ;):lol:

Highest rated Quad 4 was the in the 442 Calias W41. It has
190hp and redline of 7400rpm.

Regular HO Qaud 4s were (5spd only) were 175-180hp depending upon year.

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28

Oh and if you want to give me the $5000 I need to finish my 450hp 383 then we`ll see how much balls a SRT-4 has

I will keep showin the 4 bangers how it`s done with my lil LG4

Give myself or Big Red Jim $5000 with our 4-bangers and I can guarantee your 383 would be nothing more than an afterthought.

...And anytime you want to "show me how it's done," feel free. I'll show you what clear taillights and a big wing looks like at 6 car lengths back by 100.

Originally posted by 305fan
Sorry but headers and a mild cam does not equal enough perfromance to beat the cars you have listed.

A stock LG4 is pretty bad (1982 with the 4 speed were a joke)--the 5 speed and 3.23s helps but not enough to take a lighter, 225hp Mustang.

Good luck with the 383 swap--that will do wonders.

Just noticed you are from Welland. Nice place. I was out at a car show there in Oct. Met up with a guy who had a black Formula 350 (orginal owner, 70K, a few mods, sweet car)

Hey which show was it? You should come down to the Camaro Nats in St.catherines this summer it`s an AWSOME show it`s 3 days long

As for the Cars I Beat I have no reson to lie about it. And I`m telling you it was pathetic just how badly I beat the RSX. I wasn`t even gonna race him I was just passing him then he launch it and he got the jump on me. we want though the east main tunnel. and I killed that little Acura. the look on his face when he caught back up to me was PRICLESS.

The 1st stang gave me a run my 140km/h speedo was pinned on the trip button I`m guessin we hit around 110mph. I had a car and 1/2 on him and I couldn`t pull on him anymore.

The most pathetic win I have is when I blow away the 86 Z28. The light turn green and I launched it but I put the tires up in smoke and went sidways:eek: . Then I hooked and passed him like he was standin still. at the next light I wanted to wave him over to the side of the road to talk to him and he wouldn`t even look at me.

I took a board member out for a run once and I impressed him with it. He told me his friends 5L stang with a 5spd dosen`t pull as hard in 3rd as my Z28 does. And 3rd is where I beat the 1st stang. The CZ28 member also owned a 96 Black Z28 with a 6spd wow those LT1`s pull hard :bow:

So there you have it. if you still don`t belive me I don`t know what to tell ya.

Oh and my 383 will be done next summer I CAN`T WAIT to meet a SRT-4 by the time my 383 6spd Z28 is done with it. It will be 4 tires and a turbo laying on the side of the road:cool:

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28


Oh and my 383 will be done next summer I CAN`T WAIT to meet a SRT-4 by the time my 383 6spd Z28 is done with it. It will be 4 tires and a turbo laying on the side of the road:cool:

So you're assembling a heavily modified V8 so that you can beat a stock Neon? :D

Sorry to get back on topic guys....

But do we know for sure if the Cobalt is going to have the SC 2.2? And not something like a turbocharged 2.0 Ecotec?(2.4.....or something...)

i don't really know if they "missed" their mark, but i think they might of had a different target. next year toyota will be releasing a corolla, i think its called a xrs, it will have around 170-180hp with a 6-speed, but the car weighs 2500lbs. the sad thing is, the corolla isn't supercharged, never thought id see the day when an american company had to get supercharged to keep up and the corolla has a bit smaller engine, by like 100cc's or something,
you can get a supercharger for it through trd which gets by the warrantee, and that will probably put in in srt-4 range
i'm asuming that thats who this car is aimed at, cause if it the srt-4 they were hoping to kick, well its definitely a short fall:) how do i know this, cause i have a corolla, haha:) :cool:

The XRS has a 170hp 4 cly--they detuned the 180hp version a bit for more torque. In the press releases I saw Toyota was claiming a 7.8-8.0 0-60mph.

I don't think it will be any sort of match against a Supercharged SS. The 2.4L Ecotec should be able to beat it as well.

Originally posted by MrBonus
So you're assembling a heavily modified V8 so that you can beat a stock Neon? :D

lol no I`m not. I`m building a heavily moded V8 because I want to and to go after bigger much bigger game then a SRT-4. When I`m done I`m planing on mid/high 11s N/A.

I saw in another thread that there building it on a different platform and not a Neon, Maybe then I`ll respect it alittle more. But my mom has a 98 neon that is one SLOW car and horribly built my S-10 would beat it lol.

I want to drive one of those things and I still can't and I work for a saturn dealer. We are still waiting for our first one. I will let everyone know how they run. I drove the redline vue and it surprised me and had me thinking this is a saturn? The redline has a 2.0 saab motor in it from one of their turbo models. The techs that were trained on it said the motor is supposed to be pretty stout shortblock-wise. Has for the gauges in the middle I hate them too. But after driving one for a while it makes a great deal of sense. It makes seeing ahead so much easier. I would buy one at my discount but they are only making 5K this yearand I think that a couple are spoken for at the dealership. It would make a pretty good back and forth to work car.

Originally posted by 305fan
The XRS has a 170hp 4 cly--they detuned the 180hp version a bit for more torque. In the press releases I saw Toyota was claiming a 7.8-8.0 0-60mph.

I don't think it will be any sort of match against a Supercharged SS. The 2.4L Ecotec should be able to beat it as well.
i wasn't speaking of a SS supercharged, i was talking about the saturn being super charged

FWD blows for many reasons.
1 No power slides or crazy burnouts
2 Torque steer, my 91 buick with 170 hp torque steered, I like my cars accelerating in a straight line thank you very much.
3 Too much weight on the front wheels makes excessive understeer.
4 Tires will wear much quicker on a normally driven FWD than a normally driven RWD.
5 Always have a little engine with a FWD car.

For an A to B car FWD is fine, but for peformence it absoluetly sucks.

Originally posted by number77
next year toyota will be releasing a corolla, i think its called a xrs, it will have around 170-180hp with a 6-speed, but the car weighs 2500lbs.

The Celica GTS was 180hp. They quit making it.

Header+exhaust, intake, they're getting low 14's and high 90's out of them

WOW!! 6 pages, I must have signed up late for this site.

It might not put down SRT numbers, but it deffinatly didnt miss anything! Its raited at 205hp, and put down 197!! And if the GM website was telling me the truth, the crank rods and pistons are forged so there is going to be tons of fun in the future!
197x15% drivetrain loss=227hp. Thats very underrated, over 20hp. I dont see how this missed he spot. When everyone else is making 170hp top model cars, except for the SRT4, a 220-230hp car is very possible. I didnt read the whole first post, but did they even break the car in? This could be more like 230-240hp with a break in. Really guys, it didnt miss the spot at all.

Originally posted by Big Als Z
WOW!! 6 pages, I must have signed up late for this site.

It might not put down SRT numbers, but it deffinatly didnt miss anything! Its raited at 205hp, and put down 197!! And if the GM website was telling me the truth, the crank rods and pistons are forged so there is going to be tons of fun in the future!
197x15% drivetrain loss=227hp. Thats very underrated, over 20hp. I dont see how this missed he spot. When everyone else is making 170hp top model cars, except for the SRT4, a 220-230hp car is very possible. I didnt read the whole first post, but did they even break the car in? This could be more like 230-240hp with a break in. Really guys, it didnt miss the spot at all.

Great way to sum itup Al. I think alot of people missed those points. The first test done by a car magazine is hardly gospel.
I, too don't think it was a representational test for many of the reasons you outline.

AronZ28--fwd cars will always suffer from torque steer but some mangae it much better then others. Yes your points are true but
Fwd power and performance has been around for awhile--so saying it sucks isn't gonna make it go away.

If GM is stuck with making such a high percentage of fwd cars----may as well make them interesting to drive!;)

Originally posted by MrBonus
Give myself or Big Red Jim $5000 with our 4-bangers and I can guarantee your 383 would be nothing more than an afterthought.

...And anytime you want to "show me how it's done," feel free. I'll show you what clear taillights and a big wing looks like at 6 car lengths back by 100.

Come to papa, numbnuts.

And I'm only a 346.

Wow, this thread has spiraled out of control! :lol: I dont think the Ion was made to be an SRT-4 fighter. For what it is, its a nice package. Cheap, sporty, decent hp numbers, and probably highly modifiable.

Originally posted by Scream And Fly
Who remembers the little GM(Oldsmobile) Quad 4 naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine that made over 200 HP? Man, that was over 15 years ago! GM was the original 4-cylinder hot rod long before Hondas were being modded.

Actually that award goes to Chrysler. With help from Shelby, back in the mid 80's, they made Shelby Chargers and Omni GLH's and GLHS's. Light ass cars (like 2000lbs) with turbo 4's. The scary part was when Shelby started the program his target car was the Shelby GT500 Mustang :eek: . Crazy quick little cars. So its kinda fitting that Dodge is getting back hardcore into the turbo thing.

Originally posted by PacerX
Come to papa, numbnuts.

And I'm only a 346.

While I wasn't directly challenging you, I'm game.

I hope you've got a power adder or heads/cam.

Originally posted by MrBonus
While I wasn't directly challenging you, I'm game.

I hope you've got a power adder or heads/cam.

Ohhh Game on!!!

I would like to simply throw my imput on this pile called a thread.

The Gm cars don't have to beat the SRT-4 in the 1/4 or around a race track. Although I am sure the Redline ION and Cobalt SS will put the SRT in its place on the Ring. All they have to do is beat it in sales. Because quite frankly that is all that matters.

Now quit complaining the more money them make off these little boogers the more that goes into the 2007-2008 Chevy sports coupe.

Resume flame war.:D

Originally posted by Big Red Jim
http://www.redlineforums.com/showthread.php?p=452#post452

Made 197hp to the wheels, but only 169 ft/lbs. Not near enough to hang with an SRT-4. GM missed their mark with this car IMO....will the Cobalt SS be any different?


Well I gotta admit that I was at the top of the list o people that thought the General would TOTALLY F*CK UP on the import tuner segment with the Ion Redline and Cobalt SS, but they actually did a pretty good job on the Ion's motor.

197rwhp is pretty damn good for a 2.0. Like the article says the rev limiter and the tranny keep the car from being a mid 14 sec car. Those should be corrected by next year.

Even if the Cobalt comes with the same engine, they oughta get the gearing right and the rev limiter/valvetrain right to make it a puncher. The 2.2 would be great.

Course they came nowhere close to the benchmark, the SRT-4, but it was a damn good try.

Originally posted by MrBonus
While I wasn't directly challenging you, I'm game.

I hope you've got a power adder or heads/cam.

Try both.

Originally posted by PacerX
Try both.

Congrats. Why exactly do you want to race me?

oh no...sounds like someone is on a vteck power trip :D

anyway, to add to my last post, I dont think that GM dropped the ball on the Ion in the power department. I think that any kick to the junk of the import dominated sport compact world is fantastic when it comes from a domestic car. The SRT4, Ion RL, and Cobalt SS are just the first of probably many SC cars to do battle with the slow-to-catch-up imports...now they have to realize that the imports are behind and keep them there. They cant be like they were in the 80's and totaly dismiss the imports. If the Mazda gets 200hp, we need to keep 5 steps ahead.
Now for some negitive stuff. I think GM dropped the ball not on the Ion, but on the selection of power adder. Turbo 4's to the SC culture is like the big blocks and hemis to the muscle car generation 35-40 years ago. I think they should have used the turbo 2.0 from the Saab.

Originally posted by MrBonus
Congrats. Why exactly do you want to race me?

Wasn't it you that wanted to race in the first place?

Really, the numbers aren't bad and are what I expected (I didn't anticipate SRT-4 range). When you consider the $20k price, it's ahead of RSX Type-S and Celica GTS while being just as good a performer. And while not glamourous, I'd wager the interior bits are a bit nicer than the SRT-4s.

You've gotta be glad GM is at least making an attempt at this market!

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Wasn't it you that wanted to race in the first place?

Not him. I was just responding to the guy that said "Give me $5,000 blah blah blah 4-bangers slow blah..."

Originally posted by Chris`s85Z28
I don`t mind V6`s and a S/C 3800 would be cool in a F-body.

The thing is GM gave up on the F-bodys, and they ate most other cars alive. What I hate is GM is turning into rice. If we still had the F-body then I wouldn`t care if they built a 4 cyl S/C econo box. Do you really think we`d be talkin about a damn 4 banger if we had a 5th gen I doubt it. The F-bodys ruled I`m sure if we had a 03 Z28 or SS it would`ve killed the Cobra.

Look at what Mopar has the Viper, the new Magum and the Ram SRT-10 500 hp in a TRUCK :bow:

Ford has the Cobra the new mustang look really cool (and thats big comin from me since I hate rustangs) and the new GT 500 and there bringin a new Shellby Cobra out

Chevy we have the Corvette thats it everything else sucks, Pontiac has the GTO thats cool but under powered. and we have to wait for the new 500hp Z06 till next year. GM was the leader in performance then bam there pussyfied and now that GM can`t make a car if there life depended on it (exept the Vette) ford and Dodge have takin the performance market and running away with it. Maybe GM`s performance died because John Moss retired.

So GM PLEASE BRING THE F-BODYS BACK!!!! . GM has proved they CAN`T buld a performance FWD 4 cyl. What do I say about that THANK GOD. So they NEED to go back to what they do best BIG V8`s in RWD platforms with 6 spd`s. AKA the F-BODY.

As an ’04 GTO owner, I have to call you out on this.

1) The reason the F-Body died was due to it’s poor sales. It’s poor sales were a function of marketing but more importantly, aside from the great LS1 and it’s drivetrain/chassis (despite the notorious 7 & 5/8ths inch in a 10 bolt) the rest of the car is a P.O.S. I own one before you jump all over me, a built LS1 as a matter of fact in my ’98. The car is great for what it does, GO FAST! But it is short on comfort for myself and passengers, has slow power windows (that like to blow their motors), virtually non-existent power hatch release, warping rotors, Catalytic converter hump, cheap plasticy elongated dash and center console that look on par quality wise with my 1983 S-10 Blazer, and numerous other defieciencies. It howls, whines, belches, farts, etc, etc. No one wanted them except for the few gearheads like us.
2) The sport/compact is the hottest market right now aside from trucks/SUV’s. Period, nada end of story. Ford is laughing all the way to the bank with the Focus. Dodge the same with the Neon SRT-4. Basically, GM got caught with their pants down and their cheese out in the wind. They are foolish to NOT compete in this market whether you like it or not.

One point of contention I do have to make is your comment about the GTO being underpowered. Here is a comparison between my Camaro and my GTO.

Stock Camaro: 283 rwhp
Stock GTO: 314rwhp

Stock Camaro: 312lbs-ft of torque
Stock GTO: 334lbs-ft of torque

Camaro weight: 3,460lbs
GTO Weight: 3,780lbs

Stock ¼ mile time Camaro: 13.7 @ 101mph
Stock ¼ mile time GTO: don’t know yet, tracks are closed. But it is noticably quicker than my Camaro was.

So yes, I do pay a weight penalty, but no more than a fully decked out WS6 or convertible F-Body owner does. My GTO, stock for stock, feels infinitely quicker than my Camaro, and for a few bucks more than the same fully decked WS6 or Convertible F-Body, I have a car the is infinitely better in terms of quality and still has V8 power and RWD performance. I liken it this way. It has the balls and performance of my Camaro with the polish, quality, and refinement of my Aurora.

It seems like every car forum I visit I have to listen to idiots arguing back and forth bashing imports or bashing domestics.

Chris`s85Z28, the SRT-4 may not be your kind of car and I can accept that as personal opinion, but for someone to call an easily modified $20,000 car that can run 14 flat in the quarter a "POS",... well, I just don't think you're a real car enthusiast if you can't get over the SRT-4's econocar roots to see that it's a bargain for new-car performance. Who cares how many cylinders it has if it delivers the goods?

Also, if the price trend on new V8 performance cars continues ($33K for a GTO, $30K for the new Dodge Magnum SRT-8, $30K+ for the last Camaro SS) I can see compact 4-cylinder performance sticking around for a long time.

Originally posted by CMNTMXR57
My GTO, stock for stock, feels infinitely quicker than my Camaro, and for a few bucks more than the same fully decked WS6 or Convertible F-Body, I have a car the is infinitely better in terms of quality and still has V8 power and RWD performance. I liken it this way. It has the balls and performance of my Camaro with the polish, quality, and refinement of my Aurora.

I agree nearly 100% with what you said, except for the part with a GTO and Camaro running similar times. The Camaro is going to be quicker.

Lighter, better rear end for launching (if it doesn't explode), VERY similar power (SS's would routinely hit 310-315 rwhp).

If you're running against an SS, you then have a significant tire disadvantage to deal with as the SS's all came with 275's, and could have to contend with a lid, suspension and exhaust upgrade also.

The top Camaro was quicker than a GTO is.

That being said, the GTO has a radically different mission. RWD, fast, comfy, 2 door Aurora is a great way to describe it.

I'm a former Aurora owner also, and loved the car.

damn holden for not making thew wheel wells larger. I would have liked to seen 275's on the GTO stock. 315's should be able to fit under the car with no rubbing.

GM, if you are reading, Make sure 315's can fit with no rubbing. :D

Originally posted by MrBonus
Not him. I was just responding to the guy that said "Give me $5,000 blah blah blah 4-bangers slow blah..."


Put yer times in your sig. That'll help your end of the debate.

You have times right?

Originally posted by PacerX
I agree nearly 100% with what you said, except for the part with a GTO and Camaro running similar times. The Camaro is going to be quicker.

Lighter, better rear end for launching (if it doesn't explode), VERY similar power (SS's would routinely hit 310-315 rwhp).

If you're running against an SS, you then have a significant tire disadvantage to deal with as the SS's all came with 275's, and could have to contend with a lid, suspension and exhaust upgrade also.

The top Camaro was quicker than a GTO is.

That being said, the GTO has a radically different mission. RWD, fast, comfy, 2 door Aurora is a great way to describe it.

I'm a former Aurora owner also, and loved the car.

Ahhh, a fellow Aurora owner, NICE! :D

I know what I ran with my Z when it was stock. Unfortunately, due to the seasons, I have not yet been able to obtain times on the GTO yet. That will be soon enough though.

However, I remember when the Z28 was stock. It never felt as strong as my particular GTO. Now against a later '01/'02 F-Body, that may be different. But having both cars sitting in the driveway next to one another, I can say stock for stock, the GTO is quicker and I bet the E.T. when I run it will show it.

I also have tangled with a modded '01 SS one morning on the way to work. He and I pulled over after running and chatted for a little while. Anyway, the race was a stalemate, door to door, up to about 125 when we shut down. I also raced two later model Z28's and split them 50/50. One was a stalemate, the other beat me by about a fender or so.

I will admit though, that I've been drag racing for years and know how to drive a little more than most too. I admit that even though the SS and I knew we were gonna go for it, I took him hard off the line.

All in all, I would hardly call it a slouch or underpowered. It is a solid mid 13 second car. To me, despite it's heft, added comfort, and superior quality, would classify it as underpowered as per Chris's85Z28. So far, against some pretty formidable competition, it's held it's own.

Originally posted by hp_nut
Put yer times in your sig. That'll help your end of the debate.

You have times right?

Nope. The stock clutch wouldn't last one pass with my current power output.

What exactly is the debate I'm engaged in?

Originally posted by stangitr

Oh and that RSX wasn't racing, those are high 14 second cars bone stock.

RSX runs 16's/high 15's. Type-S runs low 15's. Integra Type-R ran 14's, but with much less weight. RSX gained a few pounds.

Originally posted by MrBonus
Nope. The stock clutch wouldn't last one pass with my current power output.

What exactly is the debate I'm engaged in?


I believe you believe that tuner 4 cylinder FI cars can run with the big V8 crowd.

I happen to agree.

Originally posted by hp_nut
I believe you believe that tuner 4 cylinder FI cars can run with the big V8 crowd.

I happen to agree.

The car will be run and I promise you times eventually. The car made 305 AWHP with a faulty boost controller on pump gas. I was pegging anywhere from 19.1-20.6 PSI without any steady boost.

The old boost controller is getting torn out and a set of 264 HKS cams are going in. I'm aiming for 340 WHP @ 21.5 PSI on pump and 370+ @ 24 PSI on C16.

I'm going to let the stock clutch go on its own and will run it when I get the aftermarket unit in.

I am not a hardcore racer like you guys but I wold like to know one thing. When is it enough? I can't see having a car with over 500+ hp being ok in most situations. For one the mods seem pretty expensive and also doesn't the premium gas make you want to shy away from Giant Cams and Monster Boost? I am just curious to when is a car fast enough. At what speed will you be satisfied. I have a slow car by most definitions here, a mid 15 stock 97 monte carlo. Yet everytime I hit the gas and take it up to 7K RPM I am perfectly pleased with the fun to be had there. I guess I am just clueless, wouldn't be the 1st time.

:confused: <==me

Originally posted by hp_nut
I believe you believe that tuner 4 cylinder FI cars can run with the big V8 crowd.

I happen to agree.

I happen to disagree. Anything someone can do to a midget motor, I can do to a big one - AND get more return for it.

Blowers? Heh.

Turbos? Ask Meany.

Nitrous? How big a shot would you like?

He's in roughly a 170rwhp hole naturally aspirated. With the shot I DOUBLE his hp at the wheels.

SEEYALATERBYE.

Displacement is your friend.

Originally posted by 91_z28_4me
I am not a hardcore racer like you guys but I wold like to know one thing. When is it enough? I can't see having a car with over 500+ hp being ok in most situations. For one the mods seem pretty expensive and also doesn't the premium gas make you want to shy away from Giant Cams and Monster Boost? I am just curious to when is a car fast enough. At what speed will you be satisfied. I have a slow car by most definitions here, a mid 15 stock 97 monte carlo. Yet everytime I hit the gas and take it up to 7K RPM I am perfectly pleased with the fun to be had there. I guess I am just clueless, wouldn't be the 1st time.

:confused: <==me

Welp, race the thing at a track and your perspective may change.

Speed is relative anyway. I have a Buell motorcycle now (XB12R), which isn't anywhere near as fast as the liter-class rice rockets, but it's fast enough for me. Meanwhile, I want 9's out of my car.

Go figure.

Originally posted by PacerX
Welp, race the thing at a track and your perspective may change.

Speed is relative anyway. I have a Buell motorcycle now (XB12R), which isn't anywhere near as fast as the liter-class rice rockets, but it's fast enough for me. Meanwhile, I want 9's out of my car.

Go figure.

On an unrelated note, how do you like your Buell?

I really want a Lightning XB9S.

Originally posted by PacerX
I happen to disagree. Anything someone can do to a midget motor, I can do to a big one - AND get more return for it.

Blowers? Heh.

Turbos? Ask Meany.

Nitrous? How big a shot would you like?

He's in roughly a 170rwhp hole naturally aspirated. With the shot I DOUBLE his hp at the wheels.

SEEYALATERBYE.

Displacement is your friend.

My car suits my needs perfectly. I should be able to throw some race gas in the car, take it to the track, trap at nearly 120 MPH and make some high 11-second passes on street tires. These cars take much less WHP to trap high due to their gearing and moderate weight. An inexpensive 50 trim T04E setup will net me in the 425WHP range and net me 3-4 MPH more in trap speed.

If I want a whole lot more, I'm driving the wrong car. I'd own an LS1 or an '03/'04 Cobra. Or an older fox body. Or a GN. etc.

Displacement is always king but that doesn't mean I won't be faster than 99% of the other cars on the road (Not that I condone nor do I engage in street racing).

Originally posted by MrBonus
On an unrelated note, how do you like your Buell?

I really want a Lightning XB9S.

Terrific bike - razor sharp handling. Perfect for all kinds of hooligan antics if you swing that way (stoppies, wheelies, burn-outs, etc...) - but I'm too conservative on a bike for that stuff. It'll brake your eyeballs out with one finger on the lever.

I put Lightning pegs on mine since they're 1" lower and I'm kind of a big guy. Might get the 1" higher handlebars later.

I'd consider getting the XB12S if I were you. The 1200cc motor is yummy. You might regret it later if you don't.

Wifey has a Buell Blast. Believe it or not, it's a nifty machine too - terrific commuter or begineer bike. You just think "lean left" and it's already there.

Originally posted by PacerX
Terrific bike - razor sharp handling. Perfect for all kinds of hooligan antics if you swing that way (stoppies, wheelies, burn-outs, etc...) - but I'm too conservative on a bike for that stuff. It'll brake your eyeballs out with one finger on the lever.

I put Lightning pegs on mine since they're 1" lower and I'm kind of a big guy. Might get the 1" higher handlebars later.

I'd consider getting the XB12S if I were you. The 1200cc motor is yummy. You might regret it later if you don't.

Wifey has a Buell Blast. Believe it or not, it's a nifty machine too - terrific commuter or begineer bike. You just think "lean left" and it's already there.

I'm a beginner and I want something to cruise in (If I want to drive fast, I'll stick with cars :p). My only real experience is with a few dirt bikes and 3-wheelers as a youth.

I've always had a love for the styling of the Buells and the big V-Twins but wasn't interested in owning a Harley.

Thanks for the endorsement. Maybe I'll look into one and just take it really easy (And be prepared to drop it a few times).

Originally posted by PacerX
I happen to disagree. Anything someone can do to a midget motor, I can do to a big one - AND get more return for it.

Blowers? Heh.

Turbos? Ask Meany.

Nitrous? How big a shot would you like?

He's in roughly a 170rwhp hole naturally aspirated. With the shot I DOUBLE his hp at the wheels.

SEEYALATERBYE.

Displacement is your friend.


You're gonna need a $6K iron truck shortblock before you go dumping any serious boost or N2O on that LS1. Otherwise it's engine go boom time at the track.

There's an economical factor to factory engineered boosted motors. Compression ratio, forged rotating assembly, over-engineered block, fuel system, computer tunability...

Nope, you can't just do whatever the SRT or Evo or Cobra owner does, because you gotta throw 3x money at it.

Originally posted by hp_nut
You're gonna need a $6K iron truck shortblock before you go dumping any serious boost or N2O on that LS1. Otherwise it's engine go boom time at the track.

There's an economical factor to factory engineered boosted motors. Compression ratio, forged rotating assembly, over-engineered block, fuel system, computer tunability...

Nope, you can't just do whatever the SRT or Evo or Cobra owner does, because you gotta throw 3x money at it.

8 seconds fast enough on the aluminum block?

The Cobra is the only motor that has a prayer of reaching that time with anything resembling equivalent money - and a big displacement, forced induction small block will waste it.

Sorry, Chevrolet wins the power to dollar contest every time, unless you're burning nitromethane.

who said anything about power adders? You can do just fine with an NA H/C 500rwhp alum block LS1. :D

Sorry kinda off topic but I agree with Pacer. Its two different worlds. Some people like pumping lots of power into little 4 cylinders and some people like big v8's. Whatever floats your boat. But with the same mods, the v8 is gonna win everytime. MrBonus still has a point, his car will be faster than mostly all cars he encounters, but Pacer's argument is still correct.

Originally posted by PacerX
8 seconds fast enough on the aluminum block?

The Cobra is the only motor that has a prayer of reaching that time with anything resembling equivalent money - and a big displacement, forced induction small block will waste it.

Sorry, Chevrolet wins the power to dollar contest every time, unless you're burning nitromethane.


Yup a $20K solid roller race motor LS1 with cam bigger than the hoover dam, 4000stall converter TH-400, stripped 2900lb Camaro. Sounds like heaven on the street. A boosted, daily drivable 9 sec Camaro will have an iron LS 6.0 forged short block costing roughly $6-7K minimum.

Cobras are already in the 9s on the stock longblock. They'll be in the 8s this year with less than $5K in the motor(blower, injectors,tune) at FULL WEIGHT and ACCESSORIES, idling and putting around the street like a stocker. I've seen 1200hp twin turbo small blocks, the Cobra 4.6 is already doing 1000hp with a turbo setup on the stock longblock. 4V DOHC makes up for the 1.1L disadvantage.

The facts simply show that a factory boosted motor wins the dollars to hp contest every time. Everyone likes to think they can just strap a blower on and make big hp. It never happens.

Everytime I hear that, hp_nut, I dream of my next prospective project:

A turbocharged Competition Orange '04 Cobra 'Vert. Let it make a quick 600+WHP, throw in a solid rear and some drag radials, and no one would know what hit them.

Yeah, turbo cars respond well to mods, but I would never buy one. If something breaks on your exotic TT 300ZX TT Supra, TT RX-7, EVO, or STI, it will be ridiciusly expensive to fix because these are low volume, exotic machines. I have heard horror stories with turbocharged cars blowing up. Unless you have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on these cars, I'd say forget it.
If you want to go fast for real cheap, just buy a crapped out 3rd Gen Camaro for $500. Put about $20,000 in a blown big block, trans, rear-end, and watch out:D