What impact did PHR's 5th Gen proposal have on Camaro's future?

With all the buzz created lately by everyones e-mails to GM, I began to wonder something else.
I posted my question in the "Camaro Name" thread with no response, and as I mentioned if this is a re-post sorry.
When Kris Horton did his rendition of a 5th gen Camaro Popular Hot Rodding took all the drawings and positive e-mails and presented them to GM in a portfolio at SEMA 2003.
My question, what effect did this have on Camaro's future? Was this a significant factor in bringing back our favorite car? :confused:

Thanks:)

The design of the car intended as the next Camaro has been pretty much done since last year, so Kris Horton's design has had zero impact on the car since it was (mostly) done already.

A car design is pretty much finalized 2-3 years before production at the absolute latest. There may be last minute changes to deal with engineering & production issues, but the look and setup of the car is done pretty early. The Mustang that's coming out late this summer had it's design finalized summer before last.

The 2006 Solstice was rammed through GM, yet it debuted at the auto show back in 2002. SSR took a little longer. GM design chief Ed Welburn freely admits his design team is working on 2008 & 2009 vehicles.



Sorry you missed my post a couple of weeks ago. It explained why the Camaro name is on hiatus, and why bringing the name back (the car isn't the issue since it's headed for production) is problematic at best.

The only issue is (and seemingly always was) the name. Someone's belated drawings, no matter how good, didn't have an impact.

One of the resident insiders over at cheersandgears.com has been dropping some pretty serious hints that the 5th gen will be heavy on 1st gen cues. My Skunkworks associate,Crispey 2k is trying to interpret the clues with sketches . He has great talent and it is looking pretty good so far,if a bit retro.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13557

That's a pretty cool concept. Maybe a little too 05 stang in direction though.

http://www.strike9.com/file.ashx?path=%5ccrispey2k5%5cfullsize%5cevoks-camaro-2.jpg

It's certainly interesting comparing it to this:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/3f8f4fde_25cc/bc/GEN5_CAMAROSTUFF/__sr_/SS1_gongos.jpg?


Who the heck is this evoc guy?

Sorry you missed my post a couple of weeks ago. It explained why the Camaro name is on hiatus, and why bringing the name back (the car isn't the issue since it's headed for production) is problematic at best.

Actually I did catch it, very informative post!! (Glad I got to see it before it got zapped! :eek: )
Was the PHR presentation part of the recent wave of enththusiast related badgering that's helping GM to realize the importance of the Camaro name?
I't seems that many factors have come together in favor of bringing the name back. :D

The design of the car intended as the next Camaro has been pretty much done since last year

God, I would LOVE to see what it looks like!

Evok has been a reliable source of inside info at C&G for a long time. We try not to ask too many questions about who he is. Nature of the beast,can't bite the hand that feeds.

How does everyone feel if they just call it Chevrolet Z28? :D

It seems that we are getting pretty close to what the next camaro will look like if evoc is correct. I love it, a few touches here and there to modernize it a bit, but overall, I would hit that.

I don't consider the PHR articles as proposals for a 5th Gen really. I think what the editor and I had in mind was more along the lines of gaining feedback to show how hungry enthusiasts were to see the Camaro make a comeback and to get it in writing. The design itself was how I would like to see the Camaro portrayed and not something I was trying to pitch to GM (I had known about the non-GM concept rule for a long time.) I figured that GM had plans of their own already anyway. I was unaware of the fact that the next generation's design was already locked down. I was under the impression that it was still a bit of a pet project at this point.

I'm kind of hoping that when the Camaro is brought back that some people will say "I wish it could have been more like Kris's concept" but at the same time I hope that it will be so incredible that even I forget about my concept. We'll see. :)

Kris

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
That's a pretty cool concept. Maybe a little too 05 stang in direction though.

http://www.strike9.com/file.ashx?path=%5ccrispey2k5%5cfullsize%5cevoks-camaro-2.jpg

It's certainly interesting comparing it to this:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/3f8f4fde_25cc/bc/GEN5_CAMAROSTUFF/__sr_/SS1_gongos.jpg?




I get a page not found error on the yahoo link and a blank page on the other. Anybody else? Did anybody save these and if so would you email them to me please.:D

The first one is from a link posted on this thread...

http://www.cheersandgears.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13557

The second is from a link posted on a thread on this site. Search for Gongos survey. It's a few posts down on the first page.

I originally clicked the strike9 link from the CnGs website. I still get the blank page.:confused:

Yeah, link no work... dang! I knew I should have saved that last night! Anybody else get it?

I remember "evok" over at thecarconnection.com when I first got into surfing the internet back in '98. He was one of the insiders that jumped ship when trolls and morons overran their future vehicles site, and let me know where everyone's new home was (C&G).

His information is dead on the money. I know at least 2 cars he's worked on directly which he gave me details on well before they came out, and things turned out precisely as he said. If he says a certain coupe is going to look a certain way and have certain things, his info is bankable. "AH-HA" is another direct insider, and there are at least 4 other people I know that actually work on future vehicles. 1 of them will soon stop posting, and that's going to be a big loss. :(

BTW: the link isn't working.

Originally posted by guionM
I remember "evok" over at thecarconnection.com when I first got into surfing the internet back in '98. He was one of the insiders that jumped ship when trolls and morons overran their future vehicles site, and let me know where everyone's new home was (C&G).

His information is dead on the money. I know at least 2 cars he's worked on directly which he gave me details on well before they came out, and things turned out precisely as he said. If he says a certain coupe is going to look a certain way and have certain things, his info is bankable. "AH-HA" is another direct insider, and there are at least 4 other people I know that actually work on future vehicles. 1 of them will soon stop posting, and that's going to be a big loss. :(

BTW: the link isn't working.

According to Evok's info... the new car will have heavy 1968 Camaro flavoring... especially the front.

I am confused by this... I thought the word was the car would not be retro-flavored like Mustang.

:confused:

Originally posted by Darth Xed
According to Evok's info... the new car will have heavy 1968 Camaro flavoring... especially the front.


I found this very confusing as well, especially since Red Planet has been beating into our heads the importance of an aerodynamic shape. I seem to remember him saying Kris Horton's Camaro would never be done simply because of the "snow plow" front end...which highly resembles a First Gen....:confused:

Don't worry about the missing pic,it was a first draft and I'm sure Crispey will post version 2.0 soon. SOP on the stuff we've worked on together.

Originally posted by jg95z28
How does everyone feel if they just call it Chevrolet Z28? :D
I would be [just] OK with that ONLY if it was an all out performance car, that means: no V6/base models.

Did anyone else notice this?

In evok's explanation the emphasis on the 1968 Camaro, and the 1998 Camaro... while the General theme of the vehicle should be the 1968?

Why not say 1967 Camaro or 2002 Camaro which are virtually the same cars from a style standpoint? Afterall 1967 was the first year of production and 2002 was the last year of production.

Is there more to this suggestion? Perhaps the number eight comes into play. As in the vehicle-we-dare-not-to-name will be deploying in MY 2008? :eek:

Riddle me this... if it comes out in 2007 as a 2008 model, would it still be ok to say 40th Anniversary? ;)

Originally posted by TA76
Yeah, link no work... dang! I knew I should have saved that last night! Anybody else get it?

I saved it. If anyone wants a copy, email me.

Here it is:

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

Originally posted by TA76
Here it is:

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg

not really feeling that myself...
i do though, think retro might be the way to go now
after seeing gone in 60 seconds last night, i was thinking, how sweet would it be to have another muscle car era with cars that look like genuine muscle cars, perform even better than their 30+ year old counterparts, and get about 20 mpg, in the city!
i was totally on the anti-retro wagon but since last night...i don't know
i think either way, the new camaro will surprise everybody

edit, looking again at the pic, it doesnt look half bad save the chrome bar and the fender flares (aren't those on the cobalt or the malibu or something, they sort of flare past the wheel well and on the rest ofthe body?)

hey, can someone photoshop the link ta76 posted without the fender flares going down the body, and sort of 'chop' them off at the wheel wells?

Originally posted by unvc92camarors
hey, can someone photoshop the link ta76 posted without the fender flares going down the body, and sort of 'chop' them off at the wheel wells? Why do that?

If you read evok's original post on cheersandgears.com he said:
Here is what I am proposing to be done and if one chooses to try it you can use any photos of the three vehicles that you can find. I just put those three links up as examples.

"""""Some of you might be wondering about why I am proposing this. hmmm You might be surprised what you come up with! """"""

1) Roof of the 1968
2) Front fenders of the 1998 where the fender line sweeps into the mirror,
3) Side of the 1999 Nomad.
4) Merge all three together to form the front end.I now see a front end that is closer to the 67 but updated in an 05 Mustang sort of way as is the rest of the car
5) Trunk of the 1968
6) General theme of the vehicle should be the 1968.
7) Windshield raked like the 1998 but the vehicle is more upright and coupe like as in the 1968.
8) More like the Essence of the 68 with a thinner c-pillar.
9) The 99 Nomad like wheel flares are a must.


This isn't about what "we" want to see. It's about what evok has seen in his crystal ball. ;)

and notice the red letters on certain parts of the post..hmmm..
now what I want to know is the sheetmetal totally new on what sigmalite? so this sheetmetal might be something totally diffrent to what we have thought..

hows this..the stance of the 3rd gen..the bold muscular look BUT with the 68 stylin fitted in,..makes you wonder..

Originally posted by jg95z28
Why do that?

If you read evok's original post on cheersandgears.com he said:


This isn't about what "we" want to see. It's about what evok has seen in his crystal ball. ;)

thanks for pointing that out jg
but i must say :barf: to the flares
nowhere in camaro history have we had flares like that and i personally don't want it to start now
but then again, that is what i "want" to see, not what evok said:o
i fear evok might be right:blah:

Originally posted by unvc92camarors
thanks for pointing that out jg
but i must say :barf: to the flares
nowhere in camaro history have we had flares like that and i personally don't want it to start now...Actually they're a more defined version of the same wheel skirts that came on all Camaros produced in 1969. :D

Let me say this......

You COULD do a front end that has the 'look' of the first gen...but it doesn't have to be a 'plow' in the front.

Think about it....the grille on the first gens were upright......at 90 degrees to the road surface. That's not aerodynamic.

now.....think about taking that 'look' and raking it..........



;)


as to styling....still changes being made......but oh, if you could only see what's hanging on the walls as the designers continue their work!

(think in terms of old photographs over the past 35 years......true inspiration)


one final comment. For those of you who really know me, (I mean REALLY know me......the kinda 'let's talk about the car at 2 am over a cup of coffee......) you'll know that I have very high standards as to what the next car has to be. And I'm happy.

'nuff said.

Interesting RP. I have to say that many times I've looked at the front of a 1st Gen and said, you know, I bet the front of that car would look cool if it were "raked."

But, to be completely honest, I really don't wanna see a retro 68 even if that's my favorite year for 1st Gens. I'd like to see maybe a 68 mixed with an IROC-Z, but not an all retro car like this: http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg even though I like most of it. Put some Third Gen lines in the 5th and just stay true to the Camaro in every aspect possible and hopefully it'll be good. ;)

Originally posted by TA76
Here it is:

http://www.wyattcon.net/images/F5Camaro.jpg



That is freakin awesome. Definitely a worthy competitor to the new stang.


The car had to go back to its first gen roots, ie. more upright stance and NOT vette-lite.

This will work.

BTW, any body intergration like 4th Gens is not cool. As in the mirrors and anything else. Crisp and clean designs are always better. And no all-out retro designs are even better. :) (same goes for chrome bars in grills) Can't say that enough. ;)

Ah!:)

I want this to turn out well, I am hoping this car won't be branded with a "they copied the idea" type stigma right out of the gates by being too retro like.

I think I'll be happy with just no chrome bar though. Please, please, PLEASE, no chrome bars.


no chrome bars

Originally posted by Red Planet
Let me say this......

You COULD do a front end that has the 'look' of the first gen...but it doesn't have to be a 'plow' in the front.

Think about it....the grille on the first gens were upright......at 90 degrees to the road surface. That's not aerodynamic.

now.....think about taking that 'look' and raking it..........



;)


as to styling....still changes being made......but oh, if you could only see what's hanging on the walls as the designers continue their work!

(think in terms of old photographs over the past 35 years......true inspiration)


one final comment. For those of you who really know me, (I mean REALLY know me......the kinda 'let's talk about the car at 2 am over a cup of coffee......) you'll know that I have very high standards as to what the next car has to be. And I'm happy.

'nuff said. :metal: Keeping hope alive! :metal:

Here's an oldy but goody....

http://www.5thgencamaro.com/

Notice raked 1st gen'ish grill.

saw this posted over at CnGs. Looks kind of like the sketch, minus the fender flares.

http://www.ls1camaro.net/freehosting/07camaro2.jpg

i think that sketch looks rather decent. i even like the wheel arches. it looks powerful, muscular, clean, mean, NICE.

i don't get why some of you who argue against retro insist that the car must conform to old styling cues like "there has never been a camaro with wheel arches THAT big." isn't the point to go forward and refine the design of the car to look more and more agressive and with the times or whatever? how do you expect that to happen if you want the designer's hands to be tied to the previous generations of the car? indeed, how would car design every change at all?

don't make it retro, but make sure to follow history. okeee.

Originally posted by Red Planet
Let me say this......

You COULD do a front end that has the 'look' of the first gen...but it doesn't have to be a 'plow' in the front.

Think about it....the grille on the first gens were upright......at 90 degrees to the road surface. That's not aerodynamic.

now.....think about taking that 'look' and raking it..........



;)


as to styling....still changes being made......but oh, if you could only see what's hanging on the walls as the designers continue their work!

(think in terms of old photographs over the past 35 years......true inspiration)


one final comment. For those of you who really know me, (I mean REALLY know me......the kinda 'let's talk about the car at 2 am over a cup of coffee......) you'll know that I have very high standards as to what the next car has to be. And I'm happy.

'nuff said.

Hhhhhmmmmmmm.......makes me think I might like it too....:D

Remember this thread?
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221284

I know it's cartoonish, but there's allot of the same ques in this one....
http://www.5thgencamaro.com/othersconcepts/017.jpg

And this one....
http://www.5thgencamaro.com/othersconcepts/042.jpg

Originally posted by SageofKnight

I want this to turn out well, I am hoping this car won't be branded with a "they copied the idea" type stigma right out of the gates by being too retro like.



This is exactly what a lot of poeple are going to think if Camaro is blatantly retro ljust ike Mustang....

Originally posted by Red Planet


one final comment. For those of you who really know me, (I mean REALLY know me......the kinda 'let's talk about the car at 2 am over a cup of coffee......) you'll know that I have very high standards as to what the next car has to be. And I'm happy.

'nuff said.

I don't know that I'd say I really know you... we've only had the oppourtunity to chat a few times, and it was with a fairly large groups , and I know it must be difficult to spread yourself around to everyone at any given event... but... from what I gathered about you in that short time.... that (the above quote) is good enough for me. I do not think there is a person on this planet with more passion for Camaro that you.

I know I am going to have issues if the nose is blatently retro... but I am also glad you say it is a work in progress... and changes are still being made.

I am hoping the designers end up with a final product that is obviously a Camaro and has feature Camaro's must have to actually be a Camaro, yet is fresh and new.

Originally posted by Doug Harden

I know it's cartoonish, but there's allot of the same ques in this one....
http://www.5thgencamaro.com/othersconcepts/017.jpg



Doug, Thom Taylor drew that one purely on my input, on what I thought a new Camaro would look like afew years ago. Basically, I talked and he drew.

Although that drawing had some neat aspects to it...I can't say that I was really happy with it. I thought it required lots more tweaking....especially to reduce the cartoonish flavor, ( the 35 inch wheels don't help either).

But a deadline is a deadline...and we needed the illustrations to go with my story.....so we used them.

I wish I had more time to fine tune them further with Thom.

Is it just me, or is this thing starting to "sound" an awful lot like camarokid128's winning entry on gminsidenews.com? It had most of the elements that evok and RP said to include... side skirks, 1st gen influence, raked 1st gen grill, etc.

Anyway, I looked hard at crispey's sketch and to me it needed some tweaking to have more of a 68 feel as evok suggests. Furthermore evok said the skirts and 4th gen fenders/mirrors also need to be there, and IMO the roof needed flattening and the rear deck to look more like a 1st gen Camaro (again as suggested by evok... I also tweaked the C-pillar). Then it needed more of a rake to the 1st gen inspired grill, and 35 years of influence as suggested by RP. So after a little pen and ink tweaking, I came up with this first draft:

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/GenV_rev1.jpg

No this is not an original design I am claiming as my own. It is a refinement of evok's preminition as drawn by crispey with influence from suggestions by RP and a strong influence on camarokid128's design from last year. Yeah its got the bar that nobody seems to want (except for a few of us ;) ) but to me it more accurately portrays what evok and RP are suggesting and that is 35 years of Camaros evolved into one.

Flame away.

Nice job! I made the same suggestion about the roof over at C&G. I think we'll see Crispey's version 2.0 before too long. Looks like we're creeping up on the real thing.

I still hope one of the styling revisions RP says are still happening dumps the fender/mirror thing.

Originally posted by CaminoLS6
I still hope one of the styling revisions RP says are still happening dumps the fender/mirror thing. Thanks.

I kind of like the fender/mirror thing though... just as I like the crossbar idea. :D

You know when I first looked at the SAAB 9-x front end. I always thought it would be a nice rendition of the first gen front end with the lights etc.

Now that RP mentions a "rake" how about something like this to be drafted on the concept. I need to post this at C&G for Crispey as well


http://www.mcarsweb.com/saab/9x.jpg

Anyone else see a resemblance.??

If the grille wasn't separate from the lights, I could see some 1st gen RS cues.

Ignore the crudness... I'm limitted to MSPaint here at the office. :p

http://home.comcast.net/~blackwoodgarcia/69camfan/9xmodgrill.jpg

see what I was trying to get at.. I think if you remove that entire front end, bottom bumper, fogs and all and place it on a coupe it would really work.
Right??


PS can you play with the headlights a little? perhaps make them a little wider and add projectors maybe. Thanks

Speaking of headlights, how about hide-away's? Something similiar to the first gen cars....I think that would be really neat. BTW I don't mind a retro Camaro.
:p (Running for cover!!!)

I don't understand why people would want an open grill car like that in these times though, it's not the 60's. I wouldn't wanna be seen in a car trying to look just like a 68 if it wasn't one. The Camaro went the direction of Ferrari/Lamborghini/Corvette muscle/sports car design and looks as early as the 2nd Gen and was visable in the Third and some in the 4ths. Why go back?! That's not the car's personality, even the 1sts were low and sporty looking cars for their times, not sedan-like.

Let 1st's keep their own identity and continue on with what the Camaro has progressed to be.