Reality Check Needed!!

I've been working on a turbo setup and I'm looking for some type of reality check as to what my output horsepower might be. I'm sure what I'm expecting and what I get are going to be totally different. Or if you see any problems in the system please speak up. Here's what I've got.

60-1 HI-FI turbo .84 turbine housing
custom header with 1 5/8 primaries into a 3" pipe to the turbo
Stock Shorty header with a 2 1/4 crossover to the 3" pipe
No Catback as of yet, probably 3.5" if it'll fit
1 5/8 pipe to the DeltaGate
2 1/4 discharge pipe

393 ci Engine
ported heads
Accel dfi with tuning by me(this is gonna be fun)
ZZ-9 Cam 212/226 112LSa .526/.520

Intercooler: None, but I was going to run a small shot of N2O to help.

PSI: 6-8 for starters 15 for fun

I do want to get a bigger turbo and cam eventually, but this is what I've got for now. What do you guys think?

stick with what your sig says =396+juice

That turbo is VERY wrong for your setup.

Could you explain why, or what would happen if I did run this system??

That doesn't look like a turbo cam to me but this is coming from a more n/a oriented guy so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Who recommended that cam?

no one recommended the cam, it's the biggest cam I had lying around with the least amount of valve overlap. Once things are working I'll get a more adaquate cam, more intake less exhaust, and a bigger turbo to hit the efficency range better.

In the grand scheme of things, cams are cheap so you might just wanna put the right one in there off the bat ya know.

Just my 2 pennies.

Your going to NEED 2 of those dinky HiFi's for that motor. Check out Combination Motorsports for some turbo cam grinds!

Bill

Your cam needs less overlap, and the 60-1 will run out of breath around 450rwhp. To get that thing running good you need at least a T70-T76.

Jose

Jose, you think the cam needs LESS overlap? I'm at -5* with that cam, I wouldn't think any less would help.

And I do know I need a bigger turbo I'm just looking for what this setup will get me. My budget is maxed for this project so I've got what I've got. 450rwhp is the only number I've seen so far, anything about any problems with the way the system will act?

Wel if the cam has that overlap, then your ok. A 60-1 will get you 450rwhp, the thing is it will spool super quick and you'll probably hit the peak # at 4000-4500rpms, then the hp will drop off quickly. But it will do for a while until you can upgrade.

Jose

Seems like a lot of work for very little gain. Might as well just run a mild n2o setup and go way faster.

I know it's not a whole lot of gain right now, but if everything goes well I'll be getting a t-72 and slapping that on there. But I'm in the middle of finishing off my basement, fixing up my car, and a few othere things so the extra $1000 is kind of hard to come by right now. If All goes well I'll have one in another couple of months though.

450rwhp is still a 100rwhp gain so I'm thinking it's worth it.

Well its better then nothing I will say. As for 1000 dollars extra for a T72, I don't see why it would be that much. You could sell that 60-1 for 350-400 or so, and a T72 isn't that much. Just a thought. When you get ready to buy a turbo let me know, I can get you one at a pretty good price.

Jose

Ok guys, perhpas a new cam would be ok, I can spare $250 I guess. Lets say I went with a 221/218 114lsa .514 .526

over the ZZ-9 Cam 212/226 112LSa .526/.520

what would I be gaining hp wise with my current setup?


http://www.cmotorsports.com/engine/lt1-lt4-camshaft-design.html

Originally posted by mn_vette
Ok guys, perhpas a new cam would be ok, I can spare $250 I guess. Lets say I went with a 221/218 114lsa .514 .526

over the ZZ-9 Cam 212/226 112LSa .526/.520

what would I be gaining hp wise with my current setup?


http://www.cmotorsports.com/engine/lt1-lt4-camshaft-design.html

I while back you claimed you wanted to run with the big boyz. Your going to need more turbo then that to hang with the guys that run around here;)
I dont know how much space you have in your car but I would probably just throw a T88 on the car. You will not need any juice with this. If you decide to go with a T76 make sure you have room for an exhaust housing larger then a .96a/r. This goes for your 60-1 as well.

Hope to c-ya out there this year; sounds like there is going to be a lot of cars:)

I would go with the 230XL. I tend to see better results with dual pattern cams. At least on my GN it runs better. I went with a similar cam also.

Jose

Do you think that much valve overlap would be good for the engine? I'm worried about the back pressure from the pipes being really high. The turbo tubing is far from ideal and I don't want to have that hurt the engine.

First what size tubing are you using. Second with that A/R on the turbine and the physical size of the turbo itself your probably going to get some reversion yes. But you do plan to upgrade, so a 230/230 duration cam won't be bad. Now if you plan on sticking with that turbo for a long while, then I would use a reverse split duration cam just for that fact that it will keep the motor from getting exhaust gas back in the CC.

Ok, if I upgrade turbos then my exhaust backpressure will go down? Now I thought the T series turbos used the same turbine housing as the T4's did. Or are you just talking about going to a higher a/r .96 maybe, higher?

Well its a little of both. The A/R needs to be at least a .96 on that 60-1 first of all. As far as the turbine wheels on the T4's well they vary in size greatly which also effect backpressure greatly. For instance a 60-1 is flowing through a 2.4" wheel, vs the 76 flows through a 3" wheel.

Jose

Originally posted by mn_vette
Ok, if I upgrade turbos then my exhaust backpressure will go down? Now I thought the T series turbos used the same turbine housing as the T4's did. Or are you just talking about going to a higher a/r .96 maybe, higher?

A .96 with that size motor you will never make it past 12psi. My T76 had a .96 a/r and my back pressure was like 1-3 ratio. The most boost I got was 11psi because of it.

Sleeper, I think your problem was mostly the header setup. The turbotech kit just couldn't flow anymore air. Jordan had a 76 Qtrim with a .96 and he was easily able to go over 11psi. Also Jim was running a GT80 with a .96 I think for a while and 1.30 and he didn't see much of a difference even at 18-19psi.

Jose

SleeperZ,

Could you give a little more explination as to why you couldn't make more than 11psi with a .96 a/r? This isn't making sense to me. But lets make it short not one of those what spins a turbo conversations. I know we don't need to turn this into one of those threads.

Thanks


Don't you just love a bunch of guys that don't keep busy at work and talk cars all day :D

mine would go over 11psi easily, but there was some SERIOUS backpressure.. never measured tho.

At 11psi manifold presure, my exhaust presure was 35psi. Thus the turbine could not spin any faster. No more boost for me=bunk turbo tech kit=2 pist off seasons...

I hate to think what mine was at 18psi :eek: No wonder why the heads kept leaking coolant!

I understand that there was alot of back pressure but what's the fizix behind limiting the boost? Can it not flow emough air at that pressure to get the turbine to spin? If that's the case I'm not sure now lesser back pressure would help. Does it start leaking from somewhere else causing less air to go through the turbo? There's something I'm missing about this 3:1 ratio that isn't making sense to me.

How much HP was your car making on 11psi??

Fixing the back pressure issue with turbo tech would be:

A. Getting larger manifold tubing
B. Get a much larger turbine housing (it comes with a .68 A/R 60-1 HiFi turbo) I looked into this with turbonetics and your pretty limited with the on-center housings. You could step up to a 1.30 they told me!
C. Add another, or get a bigger Wastegate
D. $hitcan the turbo tech kit and do a tubular setup

Originally posted by SMOKNZ
Fixing the back pressure issue with turbo tech would be:

A. Getting larger manifold tubing
B. Get a much larger turbine housing (it comes with a .68 A/R 60-1 HiFi turbo) I looked into this with turbonetics and your pretty limited with the on-center housings. You could step up to a 1.30 they told me!
C. Add another, or get a bigger Wastegate
D. $hitcan the turbo tech kit and do a tubular setup

I've been thinking about the whole backpressure issue on the turbotech kit. If the backpressure were so bad with the TurboTech kit wouldn't you see massive amounts of boost creep?

I did! Had to upgrade the downpipe and wastegate to solve it.

Bill

So if you experienced boost creep then why was sleeperZ limited to 11psi with his huge packpressure??

From an earlier part of the discussion. I did put three of the cams through Desktop Dyno to get some results. I don't have the exact numbers with me but they are at home and I'm at work.

Cam 1: 212/226 112lsa
Cam 2: 221/221 114lsa all cams have about a .54 lift
Cam 3: 230/231 112lsa

Cam 1 and cam 2 gave very similar outputs through the whole range and Cam 3 gave 50 some more horsepower in certain areas of the curve (high rpm 6500+). But as the valve overlap would be too much for my setup Cam 3 is out and I already own Cam 1. So I guess that's it for my cam decision.

I can imagine desktop dyno even being remotely accurate for a turbo aplication.. as others have noted, very few people understand turbo cam selection, and even those(major companies even) I dont think REALLY know what is going on.

I would try calling up cam motion to see what they suggest. I have bought a few cams from them. I have been happy thus far.

Cam Motion gave me this as a suggestion:


RECOMMENDATION
Grind Number X2182-2201-15+4
Duration (intake/exaust) 221/218
Lift (intake/exaust) 540 (1.6)/515 (1.52)
Lobe Center Separation 115
Intake Centerline 111

Comments Price is 290.00+shipping


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