16v conversion (usually race only)

Does anyone have any info on a 16v conversion on a 4th gen Z?

What if any components are needed besides the new alternator and battery ?

If anyone can point me in the right direction, it would be much appreciated ! Thanks !

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

You keep asking this question on different forums, and people keep telling you there are better ways to solve your system charging problems than to attempt to convert the entire electrical system to 16V operation. There are tens of thousands of stock and very high performance vehicles that run just fine with 12V systems. Yes, there can be benefits in running the fuel pump or ignition system at higher voltage, but to convert the entire electrical system in a relatively stock vehicle is of questionable value, and may even have negative impact on things like the PCM, lighting system and audio system.

You have been told several times to have your alternator and battery load tested to determine where the problem is with your system.... have you done that yet?

------------------
Fred
94 Formula A3: 381/TH400/N2O
Detailed Mod's List (http://members.aol.com/InjuneerZZ/Mod.htm)
11.513@115.59 on motor; 11.162@127.67, 1.643 60' on a 125-shot. Going with a 275-shot this year

Damn fred,
U usually seemed like a pretty cool guy, but anyways, it is a seperate question from the fact that my battery and/or alternator may be messed up.

Why is it a seperate issue ? Because this is the subject of wether or not to convert to a 16v battery and alternator with a potentimeter to set my voltage higher.

If I am ending up replacing my battery, which im pretty certain now is part of the problem, I would like to know if I am gonna end up getting a 16V one.

I am not talking about a 3-post setup, charging a 16V battery off of a stock alternator, but a complete swap of BOTH.

The lack of answers tell me not only do some people not think it is a benefit, but MOSTLY that most people have no idea or input. Basically, I will end up doing more research on it, and how it might impact the ignition/wires/lighting etc... I am 90 % certain that lighting will be positively affected similar to high output mode..

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pu12en12g:
Damn fred,
U usually seemed like a pretty cool guy, but anyways, </font>

Not sure why it makes me "uncool" in your eyes because I am doing my job as a moderator. As stated in the original post, appears your question was basically incomplete..... you didn't give all the facts. I assumed it was just another version of the question you have asked on other forums, and which I along with many other people personally took time to answer, only to find you blew off our answers.

Fred

Modern Muscle car used to make a Volt Blaster(?) that would bump up your voltage during WOT. It seemes to work good for a few people I know. Just an option that seems more reasonable...

-Geo

I will agree with Fred on this.

While I agree its possible I doubt if its worth the problems. Turbo start is the only company that I know of that deals in a system. I do not know if their alternator will bolt on your car. You will need a twin positive post (12 and 16 volt) battery. The PCM, gages, sensors etc will be negatively effected if you run them on 16 volts. The twin positive post battery will alow you to run the starter and what ever else you want to run on 16 volts. I know the Tilton starters will handle 16 volts. I do not know if the factory GM starter will take it for long, maybe, maybe not.

If you have relocated your battery (?) the cable may not be large enough. I'm using 00 welding cable.

Hope this helps your decision.

One thing to keep in mind is that the system voltage on a "16V" battery/alternator/regulator is going to be well above 16V when the system is recharging the battery after a hard start. Just as a 12V system might see 16V for 15 minutes immediately following startup, the 16V system is going to operate near 20V at times. Driving accessories, computer, injectors, lighting, audio systems, etc more than 50% in excess of its rated voltage can't be good for it.

Fred

Fred, I agree that is why the voltage sensative stuff needs to be attached to the 12 volt terminal on the 16 volt battery. Connect the starter to the 16 volt terminal.
My big question is will the 16 volt alternator bolt on the stock alternator brackets. The next thing is the charging system wiring. I "think" the 16 volt alternator is a one wire. You will not be able to use the stock wiring.

i think it would all work like normal on the 12v section of the battery, (accessories,stereo,ect)
im guessing the 16/12v battery is a (11?) cell battery with an extra post tapped into the 8th cell so there is 12v there. u will need a 16v alternator and that will go to the 16v post on the battery, as will the starter feed cable. the rest of the car's electronics can just go to that 12v post, same as any battery.
when running, the alternator will charge the whole battery, but the 12v post will still be a typical 12v or so... sorta like a voltage divider.
is it worth all this trouble/money? no. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif
jeremy

------------------
'93 z28 m6 (Purple Pearl Metallic)
stock shortblock, 230/236 cam, mildly ported heads, hooker longtubes, csi waterpump, all the usual bolton stuff.....
7.98 @ 88.7mph 1.84 60' (1/8mi)

To update this post, I did go out and get a new battery, 12V for now. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif I appreciate all your answers on this, I am having a REALLY difficult time getting any response from techs on this.

Yes, the system I am looking at is a 16V battery and 16V alternator. Basically high output NHRA style.

Freds post above, talking about running the high voltage output during a hard start / cold start... is EXACTLY what I am after... the reason behind this is unfortunately, basically cosmetic:

- my car RUNS BETTER during that mode
- LIGHTING LOOKS ALOT BETTER
- Stereo hits alot harder

IF ANYONE KNOWS if it is possible to PUT my car in that high output mode, and keep it there with tunercat, or if anyone knows a work-around that will let me do this and NOT DAMAGE anything... PLEASE let me know. I know that almost anything that can be imagined can be done to a car, so I know this is possible.
I am not worried about things such as: Shorter bulb life, shorter spark plug life, or things such as that...
ALL I am after is keeping that alternator at high output mode to keep me at or around a true 16V constant !! Thanks guys ! !

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

Fred, this system comes with a potentiometer(sp) that lets me set the running voltage for the ACC to whatever I want it to be.. so it may very well be capable of 20V+ at the alternator or battery, but I would set it to maybe around 16. Because of this complications is why I posted in here. Thanks for not closing this post, I know it may not be the most advanced thing in the world, but so far opinions have been helpful.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Injuneer 94FormM6:
One thing to keep in mind is that the system voltage on a "16V" battery/alternator/regulator is going to be well above 16V when the system is recharging the battery after a hard start. Just as a 12V system might see 16V for 15 minutes immediately following startup, the 16V system is going to operate near 20V at times. Driving accessories, computer, injectors, lighting, audio systems, etc more than 50% in excess of its rated voltage can't be good for it.

Fred</font>



------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif
First of all!
Nothing in the car will be damaged by the 16V system.
Turbostart sells the batteries, but many companies sell an alt. for 16Volts.

I run a single 16V battery and it has never had a charging load of over 18.5 volts from the alt.
Gauges, lights and pcm's can handle near and maybe even over 22volts.

Tons of racers run even dual 16V batteries with many different brands of PCM, so quit trying to rationalize your negativity in that way.

Production cars pretty soon will be coming out with even 48 volt systems in the future. I even think Mercedes has one this year or coming out next year.

The only thing that might need to be modified is the alt. brackets on on LT1's and so on (mine is the older design GM Delco size and is mounted low on the drivers side).

Don't dis what you don't know. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Dave Brown
P.S. I even made 8 passes down the 1/8 mile last year without even having an alt. or a charge, just using one bat.! I now have the alt.
http://strokedta.vettextc.net/track/Dave-1.jpg

http://strokedta.vettextc.net/track/Dave-3.jpg


------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

Thanks Dave, this is relieving to know.

Does your setup let you adjust the voltage level for car vs. engine ? ?

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

That's what I'm trying to say.
You DON'T NEED to lower the voltage.
It's better for everything to have higher voltage.
So...No I can't adjust it. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Dave

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

Cool !

Thanks man, the system I am looking at comes with the voltage adjustment that allows me to change the set point of the voltage system while running.

The set point is the level that the unit sees as the goal, the perfect level of the electrical system. You adjust it by turning a small potentiometer on the back of the alternator to adjust the set point. The range is 13.5V - 18.5V, allowing one alternator to be used with 12V and 16V batteries - and anything in between....

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

[This message has been edited by pu12en12g (edited June 24, 2002).]

OK, I've seen the Alt.
If you're thinking of running that now and then turning it up later for a 16v battery, then that sounds like a plan. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Good luck,
Dave Brown

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by strokedTA:
You DON'T NEED to lower the voltage.
It's better for everything to have higher voltage.
</font>

If you say so - I wouldn't know anything, I'm just a lowly automotive electrical engineer.



------------------
1996 Impala SS - LT4 396, T56
1996 GMC K2500
1992 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon

OK, ERIC,
Where couldn't you use higher voltage?
What would be hurt by it?
Why will we be seeing most manufacturers switching to 48+ volt systems in the REAL near future?
More efficient!

If you have something to add, then add it.
Don't quote me with a smarta$$ tone! http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

Dave

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

[This message has been edited by strokedTA (edited June 26, 2002).]

If and when you have problems with your car's drivability, whether it be PCM, sensor, or ignition related, who will be able to correctly diagnose the problem?

Mechanics have a hard enough time figuring out what's wrong with our cars with the stock electrical system, let alone a modified one.

You won't know if your problems are related to your 16 volt conversion or a genuine stock part problem.

------------------
'93 Camaro Z28 Automatic with a ZL1 hood.
No bottle.
No blower.
383 cubic inch serving of horsepower...hold the rice please.
Thats all you need to know.
ICQ: 23984221
Gripenfelter's Homepage (http://pages.sprint.ca/Gripenfelter)

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily supported or indicative of the Government of Canada or any other Federal Employee.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by strokedTA:
OK, ERIC,
Where couldn't you use higher voltage?
What would be hurt by it?
Why will we be seeing most manufacturers switching to 48+ volt systems in the REAL near future?
More efficient!
</font>

Dave.....

Let me try and explain why the "engineers" cringe when they see something like this.... not saying "we're right, you're wrong".... only trying to explain why someone with specific "technical" knowledge might not have the same view as someone (and I am making an assumption here... maybe you are one of "us" for all I know.... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif ) with "practical" knowledge.

First, the fact that future systems may operate at 48V is really not relevant. When 48V systems are implemented, each component within the vehicle will be designed to operate at the appropriate voltage. When a system is required to power electric steering pumps and valve acutators which draw significant power, it will indeed be more efficient to raise the voltage and reduce the current levels and accompanying power losses and weight penalties from heavy conductors. It is very efficient to transmit power cross-country at levels in excess of 500KV, but that isn't relevant.

A few of us (apparently not too many) remember the change in 1956 from 6V to 12V operating systems, and the difficulties of transplanting parts from one vehicle to another.... a 6V part from a 1955 Chevy shoebox was not very happy in the environment of a 12V 1956 shoebox.

As far as individual components go, I have no doubt that they will "work" at higher voltage.... but will they work correctly, or will they have the same life span? In general, things like bulbs will not last as long at higher voltage. Many kinds of motors (but not all) will see a reduced life at higher voltages. These are the easy ones to "see"..... may not be important to some people that they have to replace their bulbs in 4 years rather than 6 years..... but can anyone say with certainty that the fuel pump that failed didn't fail a lot sooner because it ran constantly at 16V, rather then temporarily when needed, using a VoltBlaster? I honestly can not quantify the shortening of the life of these components, I can not tell you whether the shortening will be of any significance to the intended use of the vehicle, I can only tell you with certainty that these components will have a shorter life span.

Then there are the unknowns. Look at the injectors.... supplied with full system voltage, and shorted to ground via the drivers in the PCM to operate. How close to the edge is the driver in the stock PCM? Is it rugged enough to drive the injectors with a 33% current increase? Did GM engineer that much fat into the component.... again, I freely admit I don't know the answer to the question. I know my MoTeC is quite happy with levels up to 22V, but did GM build the stock PCM like a MoTeC component?

What about the effect of higher voltage on the offsets for those same injectors... do they open and close faster? Does this affect the tune? Is this why pu12en12g's car runs better at 16V than it does at 12V? Is the reduced offset enough to mask the effects of improper calculated pulse widths, because some other sensor is providing faulty info? I don't know.

But I have followed the question for many weeks in other forumns, and I know that the reason for asking the question is to overcome perceived problems when the car operates at a "normal" voltage level... and perhaps even below "normal" as a result of what appeared to be a problem with the alternator, battery, voltage regulator or some combination of all....

Again... I am not saying you are wrong.... only trying to point out that although something "works" at 16V levels, within the parameters that you set as acceptable, it doesn't mean that there are absolutley no negatives associated with the change. I think it can be stated with certainty that there are negatives, if only shortened bulb life (big woop!).... only quantifying those negatives is a problem.

I think that everyone who wants to pitch in deserves the right to be heard without ridicule or hostility. If pu12en12g reads the posts, and decides that the "anti" side has not made as strong a case as the "pro" side, he is free to make his own decisions, but hopefully it will be an informed decision.

Again...I am NOT saying "I am right, you are wrong".... I am simply trying to share my technical knowledge in the hope that the subject will be more fully discussed. And to help you understand why some people may have a different view than you.

Peace.

Fred

Man Fred! Chew my a$$! LOL http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

I know what you are trying to say. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

As you might know my car? Bulbs are the least of my worries.

I don't see the use of a 16 volt system as a band-aid either, but as an upgrade.

As far as injectors go, mine are just fine with 16volts and would probably be fine with 480Volts (since I have a Dominator http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif ) too. LOL

All the racers I see at the heads up races and a lot of the NHRA races are running 16 volt systems and a lot of them are running EFI (stock PCMs and aftermarket). If there was an injector tuning problem someone probably would have come forward with it by now. Maybe they have?

Dave
P.S. Fred, you can write so much here, but when I email you to find out about your DS you can't mail me back.? http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by strokedTA:
P.S. Fred, you can write so much here, but when I email you to find out about your DS you can't mail me back.? http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

</font>

The following e-mail was sent to you on 6/26, at 3:39pm......

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
From: Forsythe, Fredrick KJBB (fredrick.forsythe@-------.com)

To: "Wheels Up Racing" (dlbjr@------.net)

Subject: RE: Driveshaft?

=====================================

Dave:

DS is 49.5" long, from the very front of the slip yoke splined tube, to the centerline of the rear u-joint. Front yoke is MW part # 39004, DS is part # 39800.

I had it installed with a Strange 12-bolt, with a 1350 pinion yoke. The Strange yoke position it identical to the factory 10-bolt u-joint position.

Fred
</font>

If you didn't get it, let me know.... I sent it from work, and e-mail is actually routed through a server in Norway.... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.

PS: It was not my intent to chew anyones a$$.... not sure why it came across that way....

[This message has been edited by Injuneer 94FormM6 (edited June 27, 2002).]

I never got it.

Well I'd have to measure mine, then. It's like 44" from u-joint center to center.

Email me again and I'll try to reply to that, with my measurement. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Dave

Hey thanks guys ! for posting your views on this. I think both sides have a valid argument. Mainly, when I upgrade this, I should be prepared to upgrade more stuff later as things fail.

Well, such is the situation with any modded F-Body it seems. I think that the high output alternator alone will be an upgrade, and the battery setup will be a bonus, with future mods in mind. It looks like it will run me nearly $400 for the entire setup, but I think in the long run it will be worth it.

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, BMR APHR, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

Cool !

Thanks man, the system I am looking at comes with the voltage adjustment that allows me to change the set point of the voltage system while running.

The set point is the level that the unit sees as the goal, the perfect level of the electrical system. You adjust it by turning a small potentiometer on the back of the alternator to adjust the set point. The range is 13.5V - 18.5V, allowing one alternator to be used with 12V and 16V batteries - and anything in between....

------------------
~ Black 95 Z A4 Convert~
P t ' s w e b p a g e (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~boatm005/)
Custom PCM, ASR PCM mod, 1st gear mod, short shifter, 3" CUTOUT, TB Bypass, ported/polished MAF, Vortech/K&N CAI, LT4KM, JET IAT, BMR STB, BMR SB, BMR SFC's, TPIS Fuel Pump (SS HOOD, Ground-Control/Eibach ERS, 160 stat, Ignition Booster waiting to be installed !)

[This message has been edited by pu12en12g (edited June 24, 2002).]


What did you end up getting? I need a new alternator and I'm interested in this variable one. Can you post some details?

Tia,

Dave

The plan to convert to 16 volt batteries may be complicated by the fact that Turbo Start has reportedly gone out of business. I'm sure there are other units available but Turbo Start was the most commonly seen 16 volt battery and external charging system seen at the track.

c.

A 16 volt bat and alt and everything else 12v isn't a good idea on a driver. Trailer queen no problem. Ya will be sorry when ya are driving down a lonely part of I-40 and it just shuts down and it cost 200 for a tow to the next town and ya don't have the 5-600 dollars to make it run again and the mechanic says they won't guarantee ANY part installed untill ya change the bat and alt.It happens used to put 8v bat in a 6v system and ya would go broke putting light bulbs in it.
If ya got a trailer queen,OK but for a driver I would fix whatever is wrong with the exsisting system.There are thousands running the stock system with NO problem.

its a bandaid, because things should work properly at 12 Volts.. Pumping 16 volts on a stock electrical system to make it work properly, means you are compensating for some sort of other problem... perhaps its as simple as an internally corroded battery cable..


Also, remember, whats good for a race car, is not necessarily good for a street car. Drag cars are only intrested in surviving 1/4 mile blasts at a time.. then they are shut down to be checked. Your street car will be on hours at at time. Thats why, even in your post's title, its usually race only.


Pumping more volts than the standard spec will decrease the life of your components.. IC, wires, caps, regulators, etc How much, depends on how things were designed and manufactured.. Is there a seperate power regulator for in our cars to clean the power feed to the PCM/injectors/sensors?


So IMO, I'd rather get the existing system working with the proper voltage.. Then if something else does blow, you know you can rely on a OEM speced part for a reliable replacement..

Else you are hopping on to a 16V power system, thats automatically puts all your stock electrical components to question. Debugging electrical problems will be a bit more intresting. If you ever have to sell the car, imagine trying to explain that to a potential buyer.




Man Fred! Chew my a$$! LOL http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

I know what you are trying to say. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

As you might know my car? Bulbs are the least of my worries.

I don't see the use of a 16 volt system as a band-aid either, but as an upgrade.

As far as injectors go, mine are just fine with 16volts and would probably be fine with 480Volts (since I have a Dominator http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif ) too. LOL

All the racers I see at the heads up races and a lot of the NHRA races are running 16 volt systems and a lot of them are running EFI (stock PCMs and aftermarket). If there was an injector tuning problem someone probably would have come forward with it by now. Maybe they have?

Dave
P.S. Fred, you can write so much here, but when I email you to find out about your DS you can't mail me back.? http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

------------------
If a little's good,
More is better,
And too much is just right!!!

The AGM Turbo Start batteries are no longer available (for now). These batteries looked like the Optima and were not available in a 3 post.

The wet cell batteries are still available and are available in 3 post. The 16v chargers are not available at this time and were made by Schumacher (in china I believe). Moroso sells a 16v charger for race cars. The 16v alternator is available from Powermaster. The adjustable version is called XS volt with the variable regulator.

If you want generic compatability info I suggest a hard core stereo shop that participates in competitions. They often run the competition systems on 48v for spl contests. (with compatible equipment) This will probably be your best source for information other than a late model NHRA stock-eliminator racer than runs 16v as their cars must be complete and functional. System voltage with a 16v battery is 18-19 volts. There are many accessories that are not rated to withstand this voltage.

What you are not understanding about injector offset is that a fuel injectors opening time varies with voltage. So increasing your injectors voltage 30% will change its operating characteristics causing your tune to richen up as the injector is open longer.

The cummutator and brushes on your fuel pump will wear faster and the pump will make more noise as it will be spinning faster. The pump will also make more volume- 30% or more possibly leading to heat related issues in your fuel system. But hey, your power widows and a/c should really get after it.