Got pulled by Evo, and 2 350Z's get taken to walkedville!!

First race was me against a buddy of mine that has a new Lancer Evo. I really like the car, it handles good, pulls hard and looks nice in my opinion. Basically it does everything well. We have been talking about racing for a week or two now just out of curiousity. Well his previous best was 12.9 @107 and since has added a full turbo back exhaust with cat delete and maybe an AFC. But those are the only two mods he has currently. So we get on the interstate and do a 45 roll first, which is the bottom of second for me, and top of second for him. It was pretty ugly for the Z!! Next two were higher rolls like 55 and 65, and the faster the starting speed the better I fared. The last one from 65 he pulled some in third, and at the top of fourth we planed out, I'm really not sure what would have happened if we had kept going but I don't really feel comfortable racing well over 100 so I shut down with him ahead and holding.

Next few races I was riding in the Evo. We raced some 350Zs that belong to buddies of ours. One is a track edition, not sure of the other one but it has a bunch of bolt on stuff like intake, headers, intake plenum and a few other things I think. They did better than I thought they would against the Evo but it was still pretty bad. We probably hit it up about 5 times on the interstate with those guys.

Oh well, fun night of racing!!

I'm very surprised you didn't walk him from a roll...

I guess that turbo-back helped out ALOT.

Ok, here's the exact words of the Evo owner as for his mods "I have a catless 3" Buschur Racing O2-back exhaust, a Hallman MBC to restrict overboost and keep the car at 19psi, and an SAFC". I don't know too much about these cars, but maybe this will help some of you guys.

Sweet runs John.
Damn I didnt realize those things could be that fast.

Whew!!!! :eek:





Mike

Yea, they can be very fast. Hell they run almost 20 pounds of boost stock! Add to that really good gearing and although it has AWD it still accelerates hard on the interstate.

I certainly didn't want to race him from a stop with me on street tires, cause that would equal big embarrassment for me! However, you have to realize that a stalled automatic is not the best choice for a highway race. Good for consistency at the track but it gives up on the interstate. I also think my car is still running rich, so I will be ordering tunercat software next week and will be playing with it. The plan is to get a dead on tune, then look at getting a six speed swap this summer. Although the auto is fine now I don't know how much longer it will last. That and this setup is really for the dragstrip, and I have probably been to the track twice since the new setup. It's more important to me at this point to have a car that will do well from a roll on. Also with the six speed at some point I could do some chassis/suspension work and try some road race stuff.

Originally posted by FastZinTennessee
However, you have to realize that a stalled automatic is not the best choice for a highway race. Good for consistency at the track but it gives up on the interstate.

Why is a stalled automatic so much worse on the interstate than a 6-speed? A stock automatic is not much worse than a stock 6-speed on the interstate.

Well, from my experience a stock automatic is noticeably slower on the interstate than a six speed. You can see this by looking at trap speeds of stock vs. stock autos and manuals. Usually you'll see about a 2mph diference I think, maybe a little less.

I'm assuming you are not that familiar with how a stall converter works so I'll do my best to explain. A converter that is rated higher than stock allows the engine to spin up more off the line for drag racing. More RPM on the line=the engine being closer to it's power band. It's great because you can get a good launch. Now the reason a converter is not that good from a roll- to allow the engine to spin up some more, the converter has to slip more than the stock one. Torque converters, regardless of what stall they are rated at will slip, the stock ones do, the aftermarket ones do. It's essentially a fluid coupling, the only mechanical lock with a torque converter is when the lock up clutch engages, and that lockup will not happen at wide open throttle. Now, more slip from a higher stall torque converter helps me get off the line at the track, but what does that slip do when I'm already off the line and rolling? This is one of the reasons that six speeds are superior for highway racing, no slip! Oh well, there's my lesson for today, hope it's correct, but I believe it is.

Originally posted by FastZinTennessee
Well, from my experience a stock automatic is noticeably slower on the interstate than a six speed. You can see this by looking at trap speeds of stock vs. stock autos and manuals. Usually you'll see about a 2mph diference I think, maybe a little less.

I'm assuming you are not that familiar with how a stall converter works so I'll do my best to explain. A converter that is rated higher than stock allows the engine to spin up more off the line for drag racing. More RPM on the line=the engine being closer to it's power band. It's great because you can get a good launch. Now the reason a converter is not that good from a roll- to allow the engine to spin up some more, the converter has to slip more than the stock one. Torque converters, regardless of what stall they are rated at will slip, the stock ones do, the aftermarket ones do. It's essentially a fluid coupling, the only mechanical lock with a torque converter is when the lock up clutch engages, and that lockup will not happen at wide open throttle. Now, more slip from a higher stall torque converter helps me get off the line at the track, but what does that slip do when I'm already off the line and rolling? This is one of the reasons that six speeds are superior for highway racing, no slip! Oh well, there's my lesson for today, hope it's correct, but I believe it is.

That makes sense! Thanks.

I think once John gets his tuning software, I'll be the one getting taken to walkedville. :( There are a couple of mods coming to try to improve my car, but if he does that 6 speed swap and keeps modding his car, my time of hanging with the Z will be over. Maybe I can bribe the UPS man to "lose" his tuning software package. :)

Well this tuning software is a crap shoot. How well it works depends on how far off my "mail order" tune is. The six speed swap will help more, but that's not gonna happen soon. Oh and the UPS man can't lose it, I get it sent via email:cool: You should come over and lend some tuning experience! I'm a new-b at this but have been reading up on it.

Oh yea, no one has said anything about the two 350Zs, but just for the hell of it here's some info:lol:

The track edition has a reworked intake plenum by Crawford Z car service, Crawford high flow catalytic converters, fujitsubo Y-pipe, Apex N1 exhaust.

The other one has Jim Wolfe popcharger intake w/ Injen upper tube, crawford plenum, headers and high flow cats.

The SAFC helped the EVO a lot. Instead of going for more boost (19psi stock is huge already) he can tune it properly, removing the extra fuel the factory calls for. Leaning it out some can make big gains. Leaning too far = kaboom :D

This improves peak power some but improves the power under the curve a lot more. That's where the real gains happen.

You've also got to keep in mind while tuning that a a/f mixture that's safe for a 1/4 mile blast may be too lean for top end runs over 120. An EGT gauge is a good addition to any modified turbo car to keep an eye on combustion temps. I've turned the knob a few clicks richer in the middle of runs before (an advantage of the old style AFC - just knobs) on my old DSMs.

This reminds me of a drivetrain hp loss poster I saw on the wall of the dyno shop I use. It said:

Manual tranny 15%
Auto Tranny 20%
Auto with aftermarket Tc 25%

If that's correct, then your looking at about around a 10% rwhp diff. between the manual and the stalled auto.

Jason

Originally posted by Steve Y
Why is a stalled automatic so much worse on the interstate than a 6-speed? A stock automatic is not much worse than a stock 6-speed on the interstate.

Z cars rule man !!!!!!!! The wheelz on tha track crapdition add mad power man. I bet u got OwNed fEwl. Hey next time you go z car spankin you better give your pal a call. Is the Evo the same person that had the Prelude ? I gave up on the alarm it's going in tomorrow. BOO HOO HOO !

Originally posted by FastZinTennessee
Torque converters, regardless of what stall they are rated at will slip, the stock ones do, the aftermarket ones do

i'm gonna go for a yank sy3500. the str is only 1.61:1 (great for launching on street tires and 3.73s) and its effeciency at max rpm is better than stock. i should be able to hold my own vs. the m6 cars with this one when i get my gears.

nice death/kill, btw.

Originally posted by SpeedzAdisease
Z cars rule man !!!!!!!! The wheelz on tha track crapdition add mad power man. I bet u got OwNed fEwl. Hey next time you go z car spankin you better give your pal a call. Is the Evo the same person that had the Prelude ?

Yea I'll call you! This was a spur of the moment type thing. The guy with the Evo is Seth who used to have a prelude.

Originally posted by jthomas
i'm gonna go for a yank sy3500. the str is only 1.61:1 (great for launching on street tires and 3.73s) and its effeciency at max rpm is better than stock. i should be able to hold my own vs. the m6 cars with this one when i get my gears.

nice death/kill, btw.

Thanks!

A few things about your torque converter..... Who told you the efficiency at max RPM is better than stock, and what is max RPM? If they are using stock redline I find it very hard to believe that a converter that is rated at 3500 RPM will catch up with and surpass the efficiency of the stock one by 5800 RPM.

Let's assume for the moment that you get this sy3500 in, and it is indeed more efficient than the stock one at max RPM. What about gearing? Being an auto you have four gears to the manuals six. All things equal and if the other guy can drive he will still be in a better RPM range throughout the race.

Also why get a 1.6 STR? The whole point of a converter is to really bust it out of the hole! I would never buy a converter with a low STR just because it will work well with street tires. Do like I did, get a 2.5 STR, if you're on street tires baby the throttle, and if you're at the track on stickys try to kick a hole in the floorboard when the light turns green!!

I'm really not trying to sound critical at all, it's just that in my opinion someone has given you the wrong ideas here. If you want to go drag racing put a stall converter in your auto and go to the strip. If you want to highway race the six speed will always be a better choice no matter what.

Originally posted by SpeedzAdisease
Is the Evo the same person that had the Prelude ?

Josh freaking Kerby.. Where you been, son?

-Seth

Hey Seth you cracker. he he he !!! Hey every time everyone stops talkin we all show back up with faster rides. I got rid of the bike and got a 98 z-28 6-speed. It runs real strong. John is out running me but I can hold my own, He gave me props. A few bolt ons and my mAd shifting skillz and I'll be in the running. he he ! Hey 14.9 in the 1/4 in a civic si with only a cat back and intake is mAd shifting. The LS1 scratches a little when I shift it real hard into 4th but it goes right in : ) I need to see your new shat box and I'll show you mine. Get my number from John so I don't have to post it. Nikki says HI !

Good runs :cool:

FWIW, Mindgame made 568rwhp on the dyno.... he also had his engine put on an engine dyno before it was put in the car and said the losses were only 12% between the engine dyno and when it was dyno'd with the 6-speed. Nothing was changed on the engine between dynos.

I think he also had a 9" rear end at the time, so the M6 might only lose 10% or so when coupled with our peasy 7.5".

Another reason the M6 will do better on the hwy than the A4 is that the engine doesn't have to spin that heavy TC AND the trans itself.... which means less mass to spin (polar moment of inertia) and less friction due to much fewer parts. The more MOI an object has, the harder it is to accelerate it. And the faster the parts are moving, the amount of force required to further accelerate them increases exponentially. Combine this with the "loose" properties of a fluid coupling and it's easy to see why direct-gear drive has smaller parasidic losses than it's auto-driven cousin.

Originally posted by FastZinTennessee


Thanks!

A few things about your torque converter.....

i agree that for all out drag racing with sticky tires, this 'verter is not the correct solution. however, i am trying to set my car up to launch well on street tires on the street. no drag radials, so no 2.5 str. more importantly, i want a strong midrange and superior top end for racing from a roll, and that is what the sy3500 delivers.

edit: go here (http://www.converter.cc/super_yank_3500_dyno.htm) to see a dyno of the sy3500 vs stock.

Originally posted by jthomas


edit: go here (http://www.converter.cc/super_yank_3500_dyno.htm) to see a dyno of the sy3500 vs stock.

Well, as you can see from the graph the biggest gains shown from the yank converter are well below redline. When the yank is outpowering the stock convert is at about 3000 RPM, which is what you would expect because of converter flash and torque multiplication. Then as you follow the graph up the two horsepower curves(stock vs. yank) even up and go parallel.

However I'm not buying that by simply putting in a yank converter in place of a stock one you will gain 12.1 rwhp at peak. The only thing that could possibly make the converter more efficient than stock is a smaller housing resulting in less mass for the motor to turn, but this would be offset by the actual internal design of the converter that allows more slip and therefore a higher stall rating.

Everyone that I have talked to agrees that higher stall converters cause more driveline power loss than stock ones. What we have here is a dyno graph produced by a company that is trying to sell torque converters. How can we tell that they didn't dyno tune the car between runs?

I'm not going to argue the point here with you because obviously your mind is made up. But if you think that just by throwing this converter in you'll be running with six speeds on the interstate you're going to be disappointed.

actually, i think most of the power gains in the upper rpms comes from the fact that the stock 'verter weighs 52 lbs and this one weighs 29 lbs. that is a huge amount. and let's not forget that it has a low str, which as it was explained to me, allows for the high effeciency (low slip) up top. i don't want to argue either, but give the guys at yank a call. they were able to explain it to me better than i would be able to explain it to you. how tc's go about doing what they do is fairly complex when all the variables are considered.

all things being equal, an auto won't roll with a 6 spd simply because of the 3rd gear ratios, of course. i am just trying to minimize my disadvantage. i don't think it will be all that bad with this tc and 3.73s. and i like the fact that the sy3500 gives me good torque multiplication well past 4000 rpm for a stout midrange without an str and stall speed that will melt my tires in first gear at anything over half throttle or cornhole me on the top. tc's are all about compromises, unfortunately.

Here's a post that should clear up some of the drivetrain loss issues:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216909

Notice Injuneer's post... right on par with what Mindgame found during his build up

Originally posted by Fast Caddie
Here's a post that should clear up some of the drivetrain loss issues:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216909

Notice Injuneer's post... right on par with what Mindgame found during his build up

fwiw, a th400 is gonna consume more power than a 4l60e. just like a 12-bolt will eat more power than a 7.5" 10-bolt.

Agreed, i was more-or-less trying to emphasize the T56 losses. With that in mind, the 4L60(E) is probably hovering around 15-17%

I'm dead even with my buddys 98 trans am with about the similar mods that i got
but he has long tubes and a 3700 stall
from a high roll ...but he runs a 12.6 at the track to my 13.1

I have an A4, in my 94 Z and I have spent hours researching M6's and 4l60E's and such. I go to the track only to check how much my mods improve my time. Gone once since I bought it in July 03. I do quite a bit of highway driving since my g/f lives in Cleveland about and hour and half away. I dont care about drag ET's other than to show progress. I have heard that the M6 is easier on the engine and milage b/c of the way it is geared. I am thinking about doing a swap, and I have the tools to do it. Is it worth it and what are the pros and cons of these tranny's? This is what I know, are these right?

T56- stronger built, can handle more power unaltered(something to the tune of 400hp and 450ft/lbs, more dependable, good for stock 7.5" as long as you dont lauch hard. better gas milage b/c of extra O.D. gears, better for highway racing, almost bulletproof, more fun!

4l60e- better for launching and track. not as good gas milage. cant support as much HP/TQ without race build or TC. not as reliable, not as strong, more problems invloved. (debatable) faster with TC and programming.

Can anyone give me a thorough run down on this?

My car has only 36k (stored every ohio winter and babied by a 52 year old) so I'd like to keep it, i.e. the swap. Car goes in for winters (so far) I have GMMG and plan on headers/CAI this summer and cam/heads next summer. (if i dont do the swap) I'll only do a straight up one with someone who wants a 4l60e. Unless the tranny is cheaper than dirt, which it usually isnt.

Should I post this in Tranny and LT1 tech? I have searched but I want an evaluation of my situation.

Thanks

-Dustin-

Originally posted by Bersaglieri


Can anyone give me a thorough run down on this?



Thanks

-Dustin-

Sent you a PM.

"walkedville" lol