Buying the Hotchkis hollow FRONT sway bar separate from kit...

... it ain't gonna happen. :(

After talking with Sam I'm pretty much sold on the Suspension Techniques 35mm solid bar, but I cringe at the idea of 20+ pounds extra weight up front. Not a BIG deal I know, but I thought I'd give Hotchkis a call and see if they would be willing to sell their 36.5mm hollow front bar separately from the kit (#2204). This isn't unheard of, since they sell a rear bar (#2203R) separate from the matched set (#2203) for the 3rd gen guys with the recommendation that it only be used with the factory 35mm option.

Here's what they said:

Steve,

From what we have found thru testing the combination of the front and rear bar the car functions very neutral in the corners. The problem with this in an autocross situation is you want the car to whip the rear end around due to the tight corners that are typical in an autocross course. We do not have any plans on selling the bars as a separate unit.

Wes

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve
To: Wesley Nielsen <wnielsen@hotchkis.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Hotchkis front sway bar for 4th gen Fbodies

Hi Wesley,
I have a question that's been buggin me for a while so I thought I'd hunt down someone who could give me some feedback.

The issue I'm having is with the "Performance Sway Bar Set" (Part# 2204) for 4th gen F-bodies (1993-2002). I can understand the concept of offering a matched set of bars for those looking to get into lapping days and road racing events. The problem however is that the 4th gen uni-body design seems to be quite finicky about body angle up front. As a result, many auto-crossers and daily-drivers have found that a larger front sway bar is useful in slowing transitions and under gentle cornering, limiting roll as the front sway bar seems to supplement the front coilovers.

The situation is so severe, that a Hotchkis STB I bought a few weeks after having my car made a very noticeable increase in even light cornering (I have a convertible and went a set further with sub-frame connectors as a result). I guess this is where the ides to "increase" the front sway bar along came from, as it seems go against traditional ideas for a car that already under-steers. With everyone trying different combinations, eventually auto-crossers found the best set up for them (and daily drivers) are to use a 1 3/8" (35 mm) solid sway bar. The bar originally touted as the "best suspension upgrade available" is manufactured by Suspension Techniques and typically runs about $150.

Now here's the kicker... it weighs nearly 30 lbs! While the performance of this item can not be denied (checkout the Autocross forums on CamaroZ28.com or LS1.com for repeated success stories), occasionally people complain about the size/weight of the bar. The story typically goes like this:

A: "I want to upgrade my suspension for a daily driver and occasional auto-cross car"
B: "No problem. Get shocks [...] and one of those killer 35mm sway bars".

A: "Sounds good... but doesn't a solid 35mm bar weigh a lot? Are there any other options?"
B: "Well... there is the Hotchkiss 36.5mm hollow bar that weighs a ton less and works exactly the same (even better with the weight loss), but you can only get it as part of the $500 set."

A: "Well... 15 lbs is a good savings, but I can't justify $350 more to do it. Guess I'll get the solid one"

I know it sounds stupid, but I've actually watched this exact conversation happen over a dozen times, and don't know how many OTHER people watched the same thing and didn't even post it.

I know your product is superior by its very design, and I know that its not unheard of to sell a single Hotchkis sway bar instead of the matched set (3rd gens can buy your rear bar, the 2203R, separate from the 2203 set, due to the factory's 35mm option they had available to them). It's common to see autocross racers with 1LE 4th gens ditch the 1LE's 21mm rear bar for the base model's 19mm bar because the rear bar is nearly ideal for slower
speeds (0-80 mph). Soooo...

Is there any chance Hotchkis would offer a 2204F in addition to the full-race 2204 set? If not in a "formalized" way, is it possible to get a price from you so I can organize a Group-Purchase on the front bar?

I *KNOW* for a fact that there would be MANY racers and daily-drivers looking for this bar if it was available as a single unit. Considering that the item is already made, and that the packaging alone is causing your company to lose sales to inferior competition, I just don't see a down side to offering the item as a single piece... even at $200 to $250 this would take a big chuck of sales away from ST's solid 35mm option.

Please let me know if there's any way I could pick up a front bar for my daily driver, and whether I could put some more people in touch with you that would like one as well.

Thank you for your time,

Just thought I'd give it shot with what limited knowledge I have with autocross (just what I've read and talked to guys about).

Anyway, if you want to as Wes and show some interest I guess it wouldn't hurt. But personally I'm taking this as a sign that the ST bar (through Sam of course ;)) is the best I'll get my hands on when I budget the money for it. :)

Anyone looking for a REAR Hotchkiss sway bar? <rolleyes>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33592&item=2454292103

25.4 mm doesn't sound like too much? I guess that helps "PREVENT" the rear from "whiping around". :p

oh well...

I guess business is not important to them... Think of the sales they're missing out on.

Tell me about it... I even gave him Sam's contact info in case he wants to "compare notes" or needs someone with enough pull to give a proper roll-out/launch.

I dunno... the only angle I can see is that they either have a VERY high opinion of their testing, or they feel that offering the bars separately would cut into the sales of their matched sets (which I doubt it'd be even CLOSE to the sales GAIN they'd see in the front bar only).

That's what I was thinking. Price the hollow bar anywhere close to the solid 35 and they wouldn't be able to keep up with demand.

Is that a hollow 25.4??

Just so you feel a little better. I just put the ST 35mm bar on about a month ago and it only adds 15 lbs.

The stock bar is 11 lbs and the ST bar is 26 lbs. Yes, I weighed them.

Dan

I sent this thread to Wes.

exact combo I had.. Hotchkis front, 1LE rear. worked grrrreat!

I would buy a big hollow front bar if it were standalone.

I like the 35mm ST bar, but it is heavy.

If I could get something as stiff or stiffer than the solid 35mm bar for less than $225, I'd get it.

...does this make sense? If its better to have a stiffer rear sway bar for drag racing and its better to have a stiffer front sway bar for road racing. Why doesn't a road racer just get together with a drag racer and split the Hotchkis kit? Bill...

It ought to make sense to Hotchkis... :)

Or, buy the Hotchkiss kit, make the rear bar adjustable with the kits out there, and use the UE lowered panhard mount for a lower rear roll center. That combination is starting to look very attractive to me.

http://mtfba.org/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=151&

Bruecksteve, what I meant was, seeing as how Hotchkis doesn't see it that way, why don't the road racing folks on this board just get with the drag racing folks on the board & split a kit??? Bill....

Ahhhhh.... I'm a little slow :)

That is a good idea. Someone would have to manage the splitting, selling, shipping of the bars and handle the money. Of course, maybe a way for someone to make some money. You wouldn't have a problem selling the front bar but you might get stuck holding on to a few of the rear bars.

...."stuck holding a few bars" as in 'Your wife & kids get rear sway bars for Christmas'? ... just kidding ;) Bill...

FYI, I got my hollow 35mm bar in on Friday. Haven't had a chance to test fit it yet, but hopefully this week sometime. If it fits and everything is okay they would be available in a about a month or so. Also, I had a 22m rear bar made hollow as well. According to my scale it's about 4 lighter than a stock 19mm bar, which is solid, so it's save even more vs. a 21. And it's all unsprung weight too.

Sam, what's the wall thickness on the hollow front bar? I figured you'd go a little larger, like 36mm, when going with a hollow bar to make sure you got the same torsional stiffness as the ST 35mm solid bar. Did you stay with 35mm because of bushing availability?

Originally posted by 94bird
Sam, what's the wall thickness on the hollow front bar? I figured you'd go a little larger, like 36mm, when going with a hollow bar to make sure you got the same torsional stiffness as the ST 35mm solid bar. Did you stay with 35mm because of bushing availability?

The front bar is 6mm tubing. The rear is 3.5mm (but also 22mm, not 21).

A hollow 35 makes sense for me to have made. It's a little tiny softer than a solid 35, which appeases the track guys a bit. Even though others have finally figured out you can make a solid 35 work, there is still a stigma to it despite my best efforts. Bushings are much more common for a 35mm bar too, altough 36's can be made without huge effort. However it makes it tougher for you to get replacements if you need them.

I'll be your first customer once you get it worked out.

I tried to call you today but we didn't reach each other. I talked to Arlyn for a few minutes. I think you tried to call back when I was out getting some more kerosene to help me stay warm in the garage. It's too dang cold outside.