I don't think the 5th gen will have T-tops, but a roof like this instead!

While I love my t-tops on my 94 Z28, I really doubt GM will offer t-tops on the next-gen Camaro. While many people did pay the extra $800+ for the t-top option (like myself) I think Gm will find another way to offer an pseudo-open top like the one on the new G6 - http://www.sub300.com/gm/g6roof.gif (animated pic from gminside news)

Originally posted by johnsocal
While I love my t-tops on my 94 Z28, I really doubt GM will offer t-tops on the next-gen Camaro. While many people did pay the extra $800+ for the t-top option (like myself) I think Gm will find another way to offer an pseudo-open top like the one on the new G6 - http://www.sub300.com/gm/g6roof.gif (animated pic from gminside news)

I sure hope not. The look of t-tops is much better. Plus the whole "side" is gone above the windows with t-tops which I think is necessary for a great open-air experience (being able to look at the scenery with nothing blocking your view). Only t-tops or targa top for me thanks.

Man, just thinking about this makes me wish for warmer weather so I can take the tops out again.

The G6's sunroof is a really innovative idea and should be much better than normal sunroofs (as long as it doesn't leak more - looks like it might but hopefully I'm wrong). But it's just that - a sunroof.

I wont argue that T-tops give a more open air feeling , but T-tops also tend to limit how the roof would be shaped. If the 5th gens l have a larger cabin to offer true 2+2 seating then I would suspect it will have a larger roof also.

Small roofs like those on the 4th gen Camaro and Vette look good with targa or t-tops but T-tops look lame on cars that have larger (more sedan sized) roofs.

Considering the next gen Camaro will not be a hatchback it would suck to have your trunk space shrunk with the t-tops sitting back their . If GM decided to build a fixed mounting system in the trunk for the t-tops it will take even more space too. People still think that T-tops are nothing but a bad leftover from the 70's when auto-makers were not making convertibles and the t-tops were your only alternative.

It looks like GM is heading towards larger automatic sunroofs like the ones on the G6 and Caddy SRX anyway.

Great -- as long as I can get mine with the fixed solid roof, without that ugly armadillo thing.

I would hope that the 5th Gen. top would be upgraded to a traga top, if the body style would permit it to do so. If not something like this new top may be in order.

Giving the how popular of an option T-Tops were on the 4th Gen. F-Bodies (over 65%) something should be in order on the 5th gen.

Hmm, didn't we see that in the 99 Nomad concept?

Originally posted by johnsocal
http://www.sub300.com/gm/g6roof.gif

Blah. That is not "open air" IMO. That is just a bigger, fancier sunroof. That's fine for a sporty but still commuter sedan. Gotta be T-tops or some kind of targa on a Camaro for me as well.

No way would I ever want to see just a sunroof or that terrible looking thing on a CAMARO. Come on. People have always loved T-Tops and anytime in the Camaro's history that they were available, usually more were equipped with them than not.

Like I've said before, if the Camaro becomes a sedan-like or GTO-like car, forget it.

Too many people paid $1000 for the T-Top option for GM to ignore it.

T-Tops are a must, and, the general feeling I get from my limited resources is that they will be...

Originally posted by johnsocal
Considering the next gen Camaro will not be a hatchback it would suck to have your trunk space shrunk with the t-tops sitting back their . If GM decided to build a fixed mounting system in the trunk for the t-tops it will take even more space too. People still think that T-tops are nothing but a bad leftover from the 70's when auto-makers were not making convertibles and the t-tops were your only alternative.

I really like how people will base things on supposed factual information that nobody knows outside of GM....:irk:

Well, I for one hope we get a T-top or Targa. I loved the ones on my V6 car and wish my V8 had them as well. Open air feeling without the sacrifices of a convertible.

Please God no!!! That thing is ugly! I wouldn't buy one with that.

I'll take mine in hardtop then!

:yuck:

You have to also remember that the added weight of such an option is an issue too. Not too many people will want that on any of the perfomance models. Also, you need a large roof area for something like that to work. Sunroofs are worthless and sould never be on a Camaro.

Originally posted by johnsocal
Small roofs like those on the 4th gen Camaro and Vette look good with targa or t-tops but T-tops look lame on cars that have larger (more sedan sized) roofs.

I never thought the G-bodies looked lame with T-tops. They have large sedan sized roofs. I think they look better with the tops.
They were plentiful on the '78-'87 models.
They were even available on the larger '76-'77 models.

As a matter of fact, the G-bodies with T-tops are the most desireable models.

Too many people paid $1000 for the T-Top option for GM to ignore it.

We just didn't get a choice. In '01 I searched for a hardtop Formula with an M6, there were none within 1500 miles. I ended up buying an '01 WS6 T/A, T-tops were standard and there was no longer a T-top delete option. When I was trying to get a hardtop each salesman would mention that most preferred T-tops but they would get requests all the time for hardtop Firebirds. They just weren't able to get hardtops on V8 models without special ordering one.

I hate T-tops but I do want them around for other's that enjoy them. But I don't want models offered where t-tops are shoved down my throat.

NO Targa...NO Convertable...No Hardtop.

Make mine with T-Tops and a V8 with RWD, what more could you want?

How about a TWO-piece Targa top. Each side comes off independently, to make removal and storgage easy, but when both are removed, completely open like a targa.

When installed. all you'd notice would be a rubber seal in the middle, maybe about 2 inches wide, compared to the curent 6inch wide center post.

I might go for that, although the chassis will be as flimsy as the convertable.


I'd still prefer a sunroof, better view when installed than a t-top. I rarely remove my t-tops, and the view out is lousy when installed. For me the t-tops let some light through, give me more headroom, and gives the interior a more open feeling. Rarely a need to remove them.

Plus, sunroofs are more stucturally rigid than a t-top, no need to add reinforcment (weight).

T-Tops are way better than a roof spoiler.

Originally posted by HuJass
I never thought the G-bodies looked lame with T-tops. They have large sedan sized roofs. I think they look better with the tops.
They were plentiful on the '78-'87 models.
They were even available on the larger '76-'77 models.

As a matter of fact, the G-bodies with T-tops are the most desireable models.

Anytime I have seen a car with a larger (more sedan like) roof with T-tops (either OEM or aftermarket) I think it looks awful. I would put it in the same catagory as a bad 1970 Van conversion.

Again I must state that I love my T-tops but I really doubt GM will bring them back and especially "if" the next-gen Camaro is NOT a hatchback.

Originally posted by PGR
How about a TWO-piece Targa top. Each side comes off independently, to make removal and storgage easy, but when both are removed, completely open like a targa.

When installed. all you'd notice would be a rubber seal in the middle, maybe about 2 inches wide, compared to the curent 6inch wide center post.

I might go for that, although the chassis will be as flimsy as the convertable.


This is a really good idea. Are you listening GM?
This eliminates the bar between the tops.
It eliminates the issue of where to stow a huge targa.
It gives a great open air experience.
You could stack the tops when stored so that they take up less real estate than a targa.

Structural integrity can be retained if the structure is built correctly.

The only issue would be sealing out the elements.
But I KNOW the engineers could figure that out.

This is the best idea so far.

Originally posted by johnsocal
Again I must state that I love my T-tops but I really doubt GM will bring them back and especially "if" the next-gen Camaro is NOT a hatchback.

2nd Gens weren't hatch's. ;) GM does want T-Tops on the 5th Gen, all you gotta do is listen.

The 5th gen absolutley needs t-tops. I love mine. 2 piece targa sounds like a nice idea too. As long as theres something like that, all is well. I hate convertibles and definitely dont want a hardtop. Hopefully the 5th gen WILL have a hatch, it would be better than a useless trunk.

A targa top is almost enough reason for me to buy a Camaro alone... I'd love one.

I agree, make the frame rigid and open the top! A 2-pc Targa would be easy to remove or install, and store in the trunk.(key word "trunk":) )

Originally posted by WERM
A targa top is almost enough reason for me to buy a Camaro alone... I'd love one.

A targa over t-tops makes too much sense to pass up.

I’ve been saying it for over a year!

No more T-tops, Give me a true

Targa!

Ok GM listen to this idea!

And for storage I like the 2 piece idea. What if in the trunk you could slide the panels into locking devices like on the 4th gen T-tops storage but on the top part of the trunk. Did that make sense? Basically so you could still store objects on the floor of the trunk while the panels would hang bolted in above.

I'd like a targa top on a Camaro. Maybe they could do the next gen Camaro like they are doing the current Corvettes. Targa and convertable available on the base model and Z28. And a mandatory hardtop on the SS. That would be pretty cool.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

I've had a full targe in my 95 Corvette, and T-Tops in my 99 Z28 (and 89 RS, but the 4th Gen T-Tops are light years ahead of the 3rd Gen tops, but anyway...)

A targa top is a PAIN for one person to remove and stowe. T-Tops are simple, especially when they lock in placee like the 4th Gen did.

Now, in all fairness, I had not removed a C5 targa top, so they very well may have improved the system (and I expect that they did), but from what I've dealt with so far, I'd take T-Tops over a targa.

Darth,
What about the 2 piece targa?
The 2 pieces would be much more manageable than 1 big top.
There's another plus to this idea.

The passenger one would go in first, with the driver one interlocking into the passenger one for a tight weather proof seal.

This would also allow the driver's side top to be taken out quickly if the driver just wants his out.

Not that you couldn't have just the passenger side out. It would just be a little more work. You'd have to take out the driver's first, then the passenger's, and then reinstall the driver's.

Originally posted by HuJass
Darth,
What about the 2 piece targa?
The 2 pieces would be much more manageable than 1 big top.
There's another plus to this idea.

The passenger one would go in first, with the driver one interlocking into the passenger one for a tight weather proof seal.

This would also allow the driver's side top to be taken out quickly if the driver just wants his out.

Not that you couldn't have just the passenger side out. It would just be a little more work. You'd have to take out the driver's first, then the passenger's, and then reinstall the driver's.


The 2-piece targa idea could work...

It would depends on some things though:

1) Now leaks! I would think it would be harder to get a good seal down the middle with this set up than wth the traditional T-Bar.

2) It has to look at least as clean as the T-Tops do installed, which personally, I do not feel is that bad.

3) Would we sacrifice some stiffness with the panels out since we would no longer have the T-Bar? Corvette seems to accomplish this, so I will assume yes.

4) Most importantly... keep it simple... you dont want to scare people away from them because they are confusing to install and remove.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
(and 89 RS, but the 4th Gen T-Tops are light years ahead of the 3rd Gen tops, but anyway...)

A targa top is a PAIN for one person to remove and stowe. T-Tops are simple, especially when they lock in placee like the 4th Gen did.

Now, in all fairness, I had not removed a C5 targa top, so they very well may have improved the system (and I expect that they did), but from what I've dealt with so far, I'd take T-Tops over a targa.

Third Gen tops look better though. ;) And I actually like the bag for the T-Tops better because it doesn't make that space in the trunk unuseful if you need it, although the locking thing was a good idea.

I like the 2 piece targa idea, but they can't beat the look and coolness of T-Tops.

Ok here's my 2¢...

a.) Hardtop - as long as it has better headroom that the 4th gens did, I have no problem with a traditional hard top for the base model with options for a t-top/sunroof or convertible. The only reason I passed on a hardtop when I went 4th gen Z28 shopping was because my head hit the ceiling. :p

b.) T-tops - Because of the tradition, of course. Although I'd like to see lighter weight and a better fit next time if I'm going to consider them. Even though I live in sunny California, mine are rarely off... mainly because its a hastle, they're heavy and if they aren't in correctly... they leak. If I had to do it over again, I would have optioned for the convertible.

c.) Sunroof - Just a standard flip top sunroof. No fancy sliding moon roof here, just something that pops up to add in a little light and fresh air. However, something that GM has never offered as an option on an F-body in the past. (Unless I'm missing something. :p )

d.) Sliding moon roof - No thanks, it just doesn't say Camaro to me... but then neither does option c.) very much although conversions have been done on 1st and early 2nd gens.

e.) Targa top - Are we really trying to be a Corvette that bad... after all does the C6 not have a targa? The big problem with this is where are you going to store the top, and how are you going to get it off, especially if the 5th gen isn't a hatchback, like many are suggesting. Furthermore its now practically a convertible with no structural support whatsoever. Two piece targa? Ok, so basically you're suggesting T-tops without the bar, correct? First of all, they would need to be super thick and heavy to be able support themselves at the seam to prevent sagging and most important add some structural integrity. I just don't see how it can work, but if someone wants to prove to me that it can with a little engineering, I'm all ears. Secondly, its just added disco fluff imo. :D

f.) Convertible - Definitley a convertible needs to be offered. Afterall Camaro convertibles sell. But here's something. What about an optional hard top? It wouldn't be retractible like the SSR, but a latch-down lightweight hard top ala the early Corvettes. And to make it really interesting... you could even do it as a two piece for the targa lovers. Heck make it an option on the base convertible.

So, in summary... three models..... base hardtop, base t-top, base convertible with an optional lightweight hardtop.

:rolleyes:

How about t-tops with a removable T-bar?

Originally posted by jg95z28
e.) Targa top - Are we really trying to be a Corvette that bad... after all does the C6 not have a targa? The big problem with this is where are you going to store the top, and how are you going to get it off, especially if the 5th gen isn't a hatchback, like many are suggesting. Furthermore its now practically a convertible with no structural support whatsoever. Two piece targa? Ok, so basically you're suggesting T-tops without the bar, correct? First of all, they would need to be super thick and heavy to be able support themselves at the seam to prevent sagging and most important add some structural integrity. I just don't see how it can work, but if someone wants to prove to me that it can with a little engineering, I'm all ears. Secondly, its just added disco fluff imo. :D

It's not that we want to have a Corvette that bad (although I'd take one). It's one thing I really like about the NSX-T, some Ferraris, etc. :P

[/B]
f.) Convertible - Definitley a convertible needs to be offered. Afterall Camaro convertibles sell. But here's something. What about an optional hard top? It wouldn't be retractible like the SSR, but a latch-down lightweight hard top ala the early Corvettes. And to make it really interesting... you could even do it as a two piece for the targa lovers. Heck make it an option on the base convertible.

So, in summary... three models..... base hardtop, base t-top, base convertible with an optional lightweight hardtop.

:rolleyes: [/B]

As for the the power retractable top, that'd be awesome but from what I understand they are cost prohibitive. That's why you only see them in the SSR and the XLR as far as GMs are concerned - not cheap vehicles. Plus I believe they add a lot of extra weight.

I really expected a less favorable response to my two-piece targa idea.

A T-top gets its structural integrity from the center post. The latching pins do nothing other than secure the t-tops. The glass provides no structural integrity whatsoever. Also, the panels do not need to be "super thick and heavy to prevent sagging" Glass is very rigind to begin with.

Now, it they added a pair of latches at the middle of the two-piece t-top, that would lock onto the targa bar and windshield frame, it could add back some integrity.

Looking at what GM has done with the Avalanche and Envoy, I believe they are capable of coming up with decent system for a two-piece t-top. But why doesn't the C6 have it? It would be the perfect application, considering they sell so many targa vettes.

Originally posted by IZ28
Third Gen tops look better though. ;) And I actually like the bag for the T-Tops better because it doesn't make that space in the trunk unuseful if you need it, although the locking thing was a good idea.




You ARE kidding... right?

How do 3rd Gen tops 'look better' than 4th Gen tops? About the only thing better about the 3rd Gen tops were that they were slightly bigger, which gave more open space... on the down side, they were more cumbersome, and heavier to handle.

The T-Top bag was better?!?!? C'Mon! That thing was HORRIBLE! The interlock system is a million times better. No more fumbling around trying to get them into the bag, then trying to get that cloth layer in between them to sit properly.... and then hoping they dont 'slide' out of position while you go run to get the seocnd T-Top.... then trying to line everything up while you pull the zippers around!!! NO WAY!!

As for the trunk space loss... I suppose you have a point... but is having a little more usable trunk space with the tops out really that important?!? I doubt most people are going to pick up a new stereo at Best Buy for their home and want drive it home with the tops out and already stowed. To get the item into the usable trunk space in the third Gen, with the top in the bag, you'd still have to disconnect the straps and play around with trying to get them in there....

Originally posted by jg95z28
Two piece targa? Ok, so basically you're suggesting T-tops without the bar, correct? First of all, they would need to be super thick and heavy to be able support themselves at the seam to prevent sagging and most important add some structural integrity. I just don't see how it can work, but if someone wants to prove to me that it can with a little engineering, I'm all ears.

Why do you say they'd have to be super thick and heavy?

Glass is rigid. It would not sag. Furthermore, the tops would probably have a lightweight aluminum frame around them that would add more rigidity and stiffness to the tops while still staying relatively light weight.
If you're worried about stiffness, the inside side of the top could have a little wider aluminum frame there.
And if the tops interlock in the center, that will add stiffness and rigidity. And this solves the sealing issue.

And I would not worry about the stiffness and rigidity of the whole vehicle. If they can do it on the 'Vette, then they can do it on the F-body.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darth Xed
You ARE kidding... right?

How do 3rd Gen tops 'look better' than 4th Gen tops? About the only thing better about the 3rd Gen tops were that they were slightly bigger, which gave more open space... on the down side, they were more cumbersome, and heavier to handle.

Nope. They were bigger, shaped nicer, and didn't have a thin cheap looking grainy piece of plastic looking thing for a molding on the outside over the door. I didn't like the width of the 4th Gens center bar either. Third Gen tops were the nicest, then comes the 2nds.

The T-Top bag was better?!?!? C'Mon! That thing was HORRIBLE! The interlock system is a million times better. No more fumbling around trying to get them into the bag, then trying to get that cloth layer in between them to sit properly.... and then hoping they dont 'slide' out of position while you go run to get the seocnd T-Top.... then trying to line everything up while you pull the zippers around!!! NO WAY!!

As for the trunk space loss... I suppose you have a point... but is having a little more usable trunk space with the tops out really that important?!? I doubt most people are going to pick up a new stereo at Best Buy for their home and want drive it home with the tops out and already stowed. To get the item into the usable trunk space in the third Gen, with the top in the bag, you'd still have to disconnect the straps and play around with trying to get them in there....

I don't have the zippers. Although the locking system is easier and more convienient, it's never been a problem for me and you can still put whatever you want in that space where they'd be in a 4th Gen, which make that place useless with the locking system.

MO.

Originally posted by IZ28


Nope. They were bigger, shaped nicer, and didn't have a thin cheap looking grainy piece of plastic looking thing for a molding on the outside over the door. I didn't like the width of the 4th Gens center bar either. Third Gen tops were the nicest, then comes the 2nds.




Yes, the 3rd Gen, peeling off rubber strip was a much better look on the outside of the T-Top than the molded, nicely formed 4th Gen edge....

How do you feel about the improved water sealing too? The 4th Gens rarely leaked... the 3rd Gens always leaked, unless, of course, your magical 3rd Gen never leaks, which I am sure is what you will say. :blah:



I don't have the zippers. Although the locking system is easier and more convienient, it's never been a problem for me and you can still put whatever you want in that space where they'd be in a 4th Gen, which make that place useless with the locking system.

MO.

If you dont have zippers, how does you T-Top bag close? (I honestly don't know this, if there is a different system used on years other than 1989)

As for the bag vs the lock in... line up 1 million people, and I am rather confident you would be the only person to pick the bag.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darth Xed
Yes, the 3rd Gen, peeling off rubber strip was a much better look on the outside of the T-Top than the molded, nicely formed 4th Gen edge....

The 4ths edge looked cheap/wierd. And any waterstrip will peel if you don't take care of it. ;)

How do you feel about the improved water sealing too? The 4th Gens rarely leaked... the 3rd Gens always leaked, unless, of course, your magical 3rd Gen never leaks, which I am sure is what you will say.

My T-Tops don't leak (newer seals) and I've seen plenty other that also don't leak, even with the originals. I've seen tight and leaky T-Top Thirds and 4ths. You notice this kinda stuff when you detail various cars and of course spray water all over them. (purposely overspraying the top and around the windows just to see helps also)

If you dont have zippers, how does you T-Top bag close? (I honestly don't know this, if there is a different system used on years other than 1989)

Velcro. In the early years all you had to do was flip the piece up and you were done. My bag is from an 84 Z28. I like it alot better than the other.

As for the bag vs the lock in... line up 1 million people, and I am rather confident you would be the only person to pick the bag.

Not if they like having some space. ;) If they need it that is.

Originally posted by IZ28
The 4ths edge looked cheap/wierd. And any waterstrip will peel if you don't take care of it. ;)

Man you've dragged me into this 3rd Gen-4th Gen argument again. D*mn you! ;)

Why is your explanation always "if you take care of it?" Personally I spent three times more time on my '86 trying to keep it looking nice than I do on my 4th Gen (this is not an exaggeration I can promise you) and it still had the usual problems...cracking dash...rattling, well, everything, T-tops that leaked and seals that peel....I just couldn't win. Perhaps your car was the only one to roll off the assembly line that day or something because the Van Nuys guys must've been paying extra-special attention to yours. :p Heck Z284ever has only 10,000 miles on his IROC and even he admits it's a rattle trap with a poor interior. Are you not taking care of your car Mr. 4ever??? ;)

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
:p Heck Z284ever has only 10,000 miles on his IROC and even he admits it's a rattle trap with a poor interior. Are you not taking care of your car Mr. 4ever??? ;)

Let me tell you.....that car gets treated better than the Queen of Shiba. When it was new....I would chase down every last rattle. No car of mine is going to rattle!...was my battle cry. But no matter how much you tighten, re-position or lube...the rattles always come back on a 3rd gen.

Nevertheless it is fanatically detailed, inside and out....underneath and on top...... and where ever I go...it blows people away. It wins trophies too.

Anyone know how hard it is for a black 3rd gen with no decals to win awards?

It has these things going against it at Camaro shows..

1) It's a 3rd gen.
2) It's NOT a 1st gen.
3) It's NOT a red 1st gen.
4) It's NOT a red 1st gen convertible.


PS

No T-Tops.

They rattle, (like 4ths don't, :rolleyes: however we got to rattles I'll never know) because Thirds can use SFC's right from the factory. Taking care of the seals is by putting silicone on them. My seals on the actual tops are perfect and the car was never garaged before I had it. This is not even a completely mint car I'm talking about, just a daily driver RS with more than 130,000 on it that gets driven hard. My dash was also mint until I hit it way too hard one day by mistake. And if you wanna talk rattles and how every Third has them, take a ride in my friends L98 92 Z28 with 34,000. He'll drive however hard you want and you won't hear a rattle. Same went for his modified 84, but it had some great and extremely strong $500 custom built SFCs. There's a few others around too, mostly all low mileage. That stuff is common on F-Bodies, M*stangs, and uni-body cars in general sometimes. There are many easy ways to fix certain rattles and window leaks on Thirds, check out the Tech Articles and boards on ThirdGen.org. I hope any complaints on all F-Bodies are fixed in the 5th Gen.

LOL @ Z284's complaint of the 1st Gen bias at car shows. You have it even more difficult with the DX3 delete.

Originally posted by SuperDave479
As for the the power retractable top, that'd be awesome but from what I understand they are cost prohibitive. That's why you only see them in the SSR and the XLR as far as GMs are concerned - not cheap vehicles. Plus I believe they add a lot of extra weight. I never said POWER RETRACTABLE TOP. I said lightweight removable top like the early Corvettes. I agree a power top would be way too heavy.

What I'm talking about is a top that the convertible owners could buy as an option that could be latched on rather than raising their canvas top. I would expect it to not require removing the regular convertible top to install.

Originally posted by HuJass
Why do you say they'd have to be super thick and heavy?

Glass is rigid. It would not sag. Furthermore, the tops would probably have a lightweight aluminum frame around them that would add more rigidity and stiffness to the tops while still staying relatively light weight.
If you're worried about stiffness, the inside side of the top could have a little wider aluminum frame there.
And if the tops interlock in the center, that will add stiffness and rigidity. And this solves the sealing issue.

And I would not worry about the stiffness and rigidity of the whole vehicle. If they can do it on the 'Vette, then they can do it on the F-body. I'm saying it would have to be think and heavy to have any kind of stability and structural integrity. Aluminum? Do you realise how expensive you just made this option. Center-interlock? Ok, great idea... now design it so that a) it still allows structural strength; b) isn't so "thick" that it impacts headroom; c) doesn't detract from the look and style of the car. I'm not saying it can't be done for a one-off show car or custom conversion. However I am saying that for a production car that will also be a daily driver, its not practical.

Everyone talks a great deal on how easy it is to do... however I haven't seen any practical ideas on how it would work and how it wouldn't drive the overall price through the roof.

I actually think my idea of a removeable lightweight hardtop option for the convertible model can work, and that can be a two piece design for those looking for that targa look.

This way you have the best of both worlds. :D

jg95z28,
Aluminum in small amounts is not all that expensive. The use of it in mainstream cars is going up considerably.

I'm sorry that I cannot tell you EXACTLY one could make it work cost effectively. I don't have access to a lot of info that I would need. Nor do I have the time and money to conduct project feasibility studies, preliminary designs, research, and basic development.

But I can say this. If anybody can do this, GM can. If they can design an engine with displacement on demand or 3 valve design heads with an in-block cam, then they can do anything.