From a Camaro perspective.....

Today has been a day of automotive sensory overload. The info is coming in so fast it's hard to process it all.

Curiously, after seeing many of the production cars and concepts unveiled today...the question in my mind has been "How does this affect Camaro?"

MUSTANG

This one is easy. Camaro and Mustang have had the "bullseye" on each other since seemingly the beginning of time.

Today, we've officially seen Mustang's bread and butter models...the V6 coupe and the GT coupe. Maybe everyone here doesn't love them...but let me assure you...if you cruise the Ford sites, Mustang is a home run. Camaro will have to impress US as much as Mustang impresses it's faithful. I think Mustang will be a big hit.......and the best models are yet to come. Camaro will hopefully not stumble.

KAPPA

I'm actually alittle surprised by the level of sophistication of Kappa's components. I certainly wasn't expecting it's front suspension to be an SLA design with coil overs and aluminum control arms. We'll see how it actually performs...but it looks impressive.

If a $19+K car can have a chassis like that.....I will not accept "COST" as the reason that the 5th gen Camaro might need to have front McPherson struts.

CORVETTE

Lot's here. But shouldn't a 5th gen Z/28 perform at least as well as a C6 Z51 coupe...maybe even better?

SELBY COBRA

This sort of re-aligns the performance automotive landscape. It throws a kink into alot of our forecasting. Can a $100,000, 650 hp Corvette, really compete with a $60-$70,000 650 hp Shelby Cobra. And what of a $60,000 Z06....where does it fall in all this? Will it compete with a 500+ hp $40,000 SVT Cobra? Wouldn't the Z06 be a more natural competitor to the Shelby Cobra?

Where does Camaro fit in here......will Camaro need to confront SVT Mustang?


What do you guys think?

Originally posted by Z284ever
MUSTANG

Today, we've officially seen Mustang's bread and butter models...the V6 coupe and the GT coupe. Maybe everyone here doesn't love them...but let me assure you...if you cruise the Ford sites, Mustang is a home run. Camaro will have to impress US as much as Mustang impresses it's faithful. I think Mustang will be a big hit.......and the best models are yet to come. Camaro will hopefully not stumble.

Mustang will be a big hit, that's for sure.The stang faithfuls love it. As far as the general public, we'll have to wait and see but i get the feeling that it'll remain popular.

Originally posted by Z284ever
KAPPA

I'm actually alittle surprised by the level of sophistication of Kappa's components. I certainly wasn't expecting it's front suspension to be an SLA design with coil overs and aluminum control arms. We'll see how it actually performs...but it looks impressive.If a $19+K car can have a chassis like that.....I will not accept "COST" as the reason that the 5th gen Camaro might need to have front McPherson struts.

I agree. From the pics i've seen, they've packed a lot into this little car. Very impressive. I expect that and more in a $25+k camaro.

Originally posted by Z284ever
CORVETTE

Lot's here. But shouldn't a 5th gen Z/28 perform at least as well as a C6 Z51 coupe...maybe even better?

I don't know about that. That's asking a lot don't you think???? That is assuming the c6 Z51 will perform as well as the 2004 z06. We don't even know if z28 will become the "top performance model" or whether that privilage will belong to the SS. Having said that, i don't expect a 5th gen Z28 to perform as well as a C6 Z51 or in comparison to something already in production..a 2004 z06. A heavy car like the z28 would need atleast 450+, not to mention a really good suspension, etc..

Originally posted by Z284ever
SELBY COBRA

This sort of re-aligns to performance automotive landscape. Can a 100,000 dollar 650 hp Corvette compete with a $60-$70,000 650 hp Shelby Cobra. And what of a $60,000 Z06....where does it fall. Will it compete with a 500+ hp $40,000 SVT Cobra? Where does Camaro fit in here?


Where'd you get the 60-70k figure for the Shelby Cobra???

As far as the SVT Cobra having 500hp, i expect a camaro model (be it z28, ss, or special limited edition ZL1) to bring 500+hp or whatever it takes to the game. Fall short of that, and you've just handed the performance crown over to Ford.

SVT plans to take the Cobra upscale in terms of craftsmanship, performance, etc.... Will GM follow suite with the top camaro?

I'm not sure what this all means from a Camaro perspective but I know if the Shelby car is built for around $70,000 they better re-think the $100,000 pricetag for the Blue Devil.

If the Shelby Cobra actually has 650 hp then I think the real question is, what does that mean for the Ford GT? Who the hell is going to pay almost 150k for this car that doesn't perform nearly as well as the Shelby(if it does make it to production)? I think to speculate on the Shelby model at this point, and how it will compete, is a bit premature. I frankly just don't see Ford doing something better than the Corvette for the price..............I just don't know if it can be done.

The more news and pics that I see about all the other cars that GM is starting to put out is really boosting my confidence about the 5th gen. I am waiting to see the performance numbers on the C6 because I bet the 5th gen will only be a few ticks slower and maybe the "top dog" will even be faster than the base C6. Everyday, things seem to be brighter.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0



I don't know about that. That's asking a lot don't you think???? That is assuming the c6 Z51 will perform as well as the 2004 z06. We don't even know if z28 will become the "top performance model" or whether that privilage will belong to the SS. Having said that, i don't expect a 5th gen Z28 to perform as well as a C6 Z51 or in comparison to something already in production..a 2004 z06. A heavy car like the z28 would need atleast 450+, not to mention a really good suspension, etc..





Call it a hunch, a guess, premonition or just plain optimism.....

But I fully expect a 5th gen Z/28 to run with a C5 Z06 or C6 Z51.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Call it a hunch, a guess, premonition or just plain optimism.....

But I fully expect a 5th gen Z/28 to run with a C5 Z06 or C6 Z51.

I'm way on the otherside. I think that's damn near impossible. Not without some serious hp, and a host of go fast and turn quick goodies. I mean, i have serious doubts on whether a 2006 Cobra (assuming it has 500hp and a good modern suspension/chassis) will be good enough to run with a 2004 z06 too.

No easy task.

This sort of re-aligns the performance automotive landscape. It throws a kink into alot of our forecasting. Can a $100,000, 650 hp Corvette, really compete with a $60-$70,000 650 hp Shelby Cobra.

OMG. ROFLOL. A B S O L U T E L Y m u s t r e s i s t t h e u r g e t o c o m m e n t f u r t h e r

shutup, Robert


(Z284ever....not pointed at you at all. Thanks for posting. :) )

Anything the M*stang does, the Camaro has to do better. If a real limited ZL1 model is needed than so be it. I'd rather see a Z28 take care of it though. Let the Corvette handle everything else.

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
I'm way on the otherside. I think that's damn near impossible. Not without some serious hp, and a host of go fast and turn quick goodies. I mean, i have serious doubts on whether a 2006 Cobra (assuming it has 500hp and a good modern suspension/chassis) will be good enough to run with a 2004 z06 too.

No easy task.


Well if we're talking straight line acceleration, the current Cobra at 425hp is only about 3-4 tenths of a second behind the current Z06. Even assuming that a 500hp '06 Cobra is not underrated that's still a jump of 75hp which is plenty to overtake that gap.

Here's how I see the future performance ladder.

'05 Z06 > '06 Cobra > '05 C6 = current Z06 > current Cobra



Originally posted by Bob Cosby
OMG. ROFLOL. A B S O L U T E L Y m u s t r e s i s t t h e u r g e t o c o m m e n t f u r t h e r

shutup, Robert


(Z284ever....not pointed at you at all. Thanks for posting. :) )

What does smoked blue devil taste like?:D

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
If the Shelby Cobra actually has 650 hp then I think the real question is, what does that mean for the Ford GT? Who the hell is going to pay almost 150k for this car that doesn't perform nearly as well as the Shelby(if it does make it to production)?

Forget about what Chevy might do, this is the real issue that Ford needs to deal with.

Originally posted by hp_nut

Here's how I see the future performance ladder.

'05 Z06 > '06 Cobra > '05 C6 = current Z06 > current Cobra



And Camaro?

Originally posted by Chuck!
Forget about what Chevy might do, this is the real issue that Ford needs to deal with.

Assuming the GT will end production in 06 or 07, then that won't be an issue. The Cobra could probably carry on from there. By then, all the GT's would have been sold or spoken for. It'll only be made for what? 2 years with only a couple of thousand units?

The Shelby Cobra is not going to go for $70,000, especially with a $40,000 engine in its compartment. Hell, the Shelby GT with 320hp sold for over $150,000.

Now unless Shelby has one a bunch of his BS lawsuits, it will probably sell for $200,000.

Originally posted by Z284ever
And Camaro?

Believe me. I WISH there was no stupid corvette rule. I have no problem with 500+hp Z/28 Camaro going along with the Mustang Cobra right over the performance of the base C6.

Looks to me like the Z/28 gets the base 400hp LS2 which should put it in proper Mustang GT ass kicking mode.

Let's try this again

'05 Z06 > '06 Cobra > '06 C6 = current Z06 > '07 Z/28 = current Cobra > '05 Mustang GT = '05 GTO = Camaro 5.3 RS

I'll just reiterate the point that GM will never let the Camaro compete with the Corvette. They will put a bullet in their heads before you do that :)

I think the Mustang/Cobra issue should remain a "Camaro vs Mustang" battle, and the Corvette should "Evolve" to compete with more Exotic models like the "Viper GTS"'s, "Shelby's" etc. I think the Vette needs to go to a V10 / 4-valve OHC motor, or something similar, a little more Exotic...
And "hand-down" it's LS6(or equiv.) to its sibling, the Camaro...

GM/GMPP shouldn't let the competition pull so far ahead, and this "Missing Production year" will just give the SVT guys a big jump!
GM! Let's get our "Skunk Works" on the front burner!!!

Originally posted by DarthIROC
I'll just reiterate the point that GM will never let the Camaro compete with the Corvette. They will put a bullet in their heads before you do that :)

No, the top Corvette will not be outperformed by a Camaro....that's for sure. But having a 3,000-3,100lbs, 500hp Z06 gives Camaro P_L_E_N_T_Y of head room to develop.

Lets look at the '06 Cobra for a minute.
We now know what a Mustang GT will weigh...3,425 lbs. Add the Cobra's heavier 5.4 block, heavier 4v heads, supercharger, intercooler, 20" wheels, heavier transmission and other driveline components....what are we up to?....a 3,700+ lbs Cobra? Even if Cobra's supercharged, supercooled 5.4 puts out 550hp....it won't match the lighter Z06's 500.

Now lets take the Z/28 formula. Content limited. Weight controlled. Let's say a Z/28 weighs in at the same weight as Mustang GT. We already suspect that the LS2 is underrated at 400 hp. What if, as part of a comprehensive performance package, Z/28 gets an LS2 with hotter cam and some other revisions...are we at an actual (not rated) 430-450 hp yet?

If Cobra doesn't get more than 500hp....this Z/28 will give it a run for it's money.......the Z06 will devour it.

Personally, I think the LSx engines continue to be the BEST mass-produced performance engines on the market today - bar none. So long as GM can continue to get great power and fuel economy out of them, and so long as they can continue to meet emissions requirements, why change to something more "exotic"? Some of their beauty is in their relative simplicity, and certainly some their appeal is their relatively small, lightweight packaging. I don't see the need to change....at least not yet.

And if the Vette does get something "high tech", and if that allowed the new Camaro to use the BEST of the LSx motors, then I suppose that's a good thing. Viva La LSx! :)

Another thing that will help the Corvette perform better is a better drag coefficient. The C6 is now a .28, down from a .29 in the C5. It's not much but every little bit helps.

Does anyone know what the current Mustang is or the GT? I hope the 5th gen has a decent drag coefficient so it is not a brick in the wind.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Another thing that will help the Corvette perform better is a better drag coefficient. The C6 is now a .28, down from a .29 in the C5. It's not much but every little bit helps.

Does anyone know what the current Mustang is or the GT? I hope the 5th gen has a decent drag coefficient so it is not a brick in the wind.

Something like a .34.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Now lets take the Z/28 formula. Content limited. Weight controlled. Let's say a Z/28 weighs in at the same weight as Mustang GT.

Does the current z28 even weigh less than 3425lbs? I believe its around there, but not less. It will have to weigh the same or less than the 4th gen z28's. Now assuming the next gen will get physically larger and come with IRS, i think it might gain a little.

If it shares platforms with a car like a GTO, can we assume 3500+lbs??? (GTO currently weighs as much as the current cobra).

Originally posted by Larnach
The Shelby Cobra is not going to go for $70,000, especially with a $40,000 engine in its compartment. Hell, the Shelby GT with 320hp sold for over $150,000.

Now unless Shelby has one a bunch of his BS lawsuits, it will probably sell for $200,000.

Could you cover for me how/where you derived $40k for this V10 engine?

Granted, Shelby has been able to dictate asking prices for his creations over the last 15 years, but I think he will have a "somewhat" calm and passive tone with this new SC-Cobra. He has the benefit of hindsight from his 260/289/427 Cobra days in the '60's, and he has a chance to do it over again... better this time.

I posted on this months ago...
Shelby has enterred into many deals with many folks to make this work out right. He inked a deal with AC Motorcars of Europe for his bodies, Ford is on-board with powertrain and engine development and production, there are financial backers and marketing firms involved to maximize publicity, etc. In short, these cars WON'T be the super-exotic, hand built, custom creations built in a small aircraft hanger at an abandoned LA airport. These cars are being given the attention and detail for PRODUCTION (albeit limited numbers and styles). It is my understanding that Shelby himself is not interested in building the cars anyways, but in having them done by Ford (or tuner companies), then putting his blessing on them.

In short, if this new SC-Cobra is offered at $70k or so, it will be because of Ford's (and maybe Shelby's) goofy policy of pricing what the market will bear... NOT what the CAR COSTS TO BUILD.

Which leads me to my last point...
You guys wondering about the costs... what about the $139k GT40... what about a $50k SVT Cobra... and so on... listen to me,
Cost means NOTHING to the people who want this car.
I know it is a hard concept for us common guys to grasp, but there are MANY people in our country with more money than common sense. They don't care about 0-60 times, weight, top-speeds, Cd ratings, ride height, G-force capabilities, or the color of the volume knob on the radio... They see a car, it's rare, it looks cool, they think they will look awesome in it, so they buy it - PERIOD. Have you guys not heard that Bill Ford himself is getting correspondence and calls from "significant people" requesting that he build and reserve a GT40 for them?!?! Dealers were issued a form letter warning them about liability and suits with regards to taking orders for GT40's this early. Only 3000 will be built this year, and there are over 4000 Ford dealers - you do the math. The cars will be assigned to dealers in 3 lots, based on sales history and performance, dealers awarded the President's Award for sales and service excellence, and LOTTERY DRAWINGS.

TRUST ME - cost is not an issue when it comes to selling exclusive cars of this caliber. Jay Leno and Jerry Sinfeld just don't care if it's $150k.

There is certain indication that, while the Corvette rule applies, Camaro has a good possibility of running equal to 06 Cobra. Which means the Camaro will pack 500 HP. Which also means that it will kill base C6, but will be outrun by Z06 C6.

Hence, Corvette rule still applies, and there is a Camaro model to run with the Cobra. The question is, how much will such a Camaro cost? Will it be MORE than C6? Less than? Same?

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Does the current z28 even weigh less than 3425lbs? I believe its around there, but not less. It will have to weigh the same or less than the 4th gen z28's. Now assuming the next gen will get physically larger and come with IRS, i think it might gain a little.



I think that Camaro will get abit smaller...but weight, I'm not sure of. It'd be great if it lost weight...but that may be wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I think that Camaro will get abit smaller...but weight, I'm not sure of. It'd be great if it lost weight...but that may be wishful thinking.

I went to back to GiounM's recap on the 5th gen and he said something along the lines of "it will be taller and heavier". He also said it will "have less overhang", and so it might be physically smaller.

Just speculation, but there's that liklihood.

Originally posted by muckz
There is certain indication that, while the Corvette rule applies, Camaro has a good possibility of running equal to 06 Cobra. Which means the Camaro will pack 500 HP. Which also means that it will kill base C6, but will be outrun by Z06 C6.

Hence, Corvette rule still applies, and there is a Camaro model to run with the Cobra. The question is, how much will such a Camaro cost? Will it be MORE than C6? Less than? Same?


I just don't see it. The Corvette rule is that the Corvette is the fastest car from Chevy period. Seriously how would Chevy sell a single C6 that's substantially slower than a Z/28 with a 500+hp engine sitting on the showroom floor right next to it? They'd only sell Z/28s and Z06s then. The base C6 would sit and collect dust.

A Camaro that makes 500hp and outruns a C6 will have to cost more than the $45K C6. No doubt about it.

Who's going to shell out $45K+ for a Camaro Z/28?

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Does anyone know what the current Mustang is or the GT? I hope the 5th gen has a decent drag coefficient so it is not a brick in the wind.

Something like a .34.

I just looked it up...

V6 .33
GT/Mach1/Cobra .36

2002 Camaro .33-.34

Just for fun:
Probe .308 (GT .312)

Originally posted by ProudPony
Could you cover for me how/where you derived $40k for this V10 engine?


I'm using an edumacated:D guess.

The crate version of the V10, cast iron heads, cast iron block is around the $10,000 mark.

Combine this with an aluminum castings, custom rotating assembly, all prototype as well, it can easily get up there.

Hell look at a large displacement LS1, that is a mass produced engine with mass produced parts all available, the price tag is easily in the $20,000 range for one of those.

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
I just looked it up...

V6 .33
GT/Mach1/Cobra .36

2002 Camaro .33-.34

Just for fun:
Probe .308 (GT .312)

Holy crap, the Mustang really is bad. That is something I would like to avoid with the 5th gen.

Originally posted by hp_nut
I just don't see it. The Corvette rule is that the Corvette is the fastest car from Chevy period. Seriously how would Chevy sell a single C6 that's substantially slower than a Z/28 with a 500+hp engine sitting on the showroom floor right next to it? They'd only sell Z/28s and Z06s then. The base C6 would sit and collect dust.

A Camaro that makes 500hp and outruns a C6 will have to cost more than the $45K C6. No doubt about it.

Who's going to shell out $45K+ for a Camaro Z/28?

A couple of things.

Z/28 doesn't need to have 500 hp or cost $45,000.
It doesn't need to be much....if at all...faster than a base C6. The C6 will easily do 12's...maybe mid-12's. 12's are good enough.

If someone is considering purchasing a base C6....I don't think they'd be put off by the fact that a Camaro exists with a focused performance package that might rival some Corvette models in performance...if they were, they'd buy a Z06.

Studies by GM for the C5 determined there is very little crossover on that point.

It also would certainly not be the first time that Z/28 outperformed "lower" models of the Corvette. In the early '70's for example....LT-1 was standard in Z/28...but an option on Corvette....the lower perf L-48 being the Vette's standard motor.

We have to also remember that the F-body was only ever-so-slightly slower than the base Vette as is so that is the starting point for the main V8 car since it will get the Vette's 6.0. If there will be a performance Camaro, it will be faster than a base C6 but it most certainly will not be faster than a ZO6 even if they have the same HP, as pointed out.

I also agree that there is little cross shopping between the 2 vehicles. I read something about that too. The person who buys the Vette is not just concerned about raw performance numbers, they are concerned with owning a Vette and distinguishing themselves over the "pedestrian" Camaro.

Originally posted by Z284ever
A couple of things.

Z/28 doesn't need to have 500 hp or cost $45,000.
It doesn't need to be much....if at all...faster than a base C6. The C6 will easily do 12's...maybe mid-12's. 12's are good enough.



No doubt about it. A C6 6spd is going to do about 12.3-12.4 @ 116+mph. The C6 will be a MONSTER.

Well I think that's exactly what you'll be getting with a 400hp LS2 Z/28. A slightly slower car than a base C6. I figure a mid-high 12s Camaro for around $35K, about what the current Cobra is doing.

Figure about a 12.6-12.8 @ 112 - 114 bonestock(faster than the average '03 Cobra because the Cobra IRS sucks). Is that good enough for the Z/28 fans?




If someone is considering purchasing a base C6....I don't think they'd be put off by the fact that a Camaro exists with a focused performance package that might rival some Corvette models in performance...if they were, they'd buy a Z06.

Studies by GM for the C5 determined there is very little crossover on that point.

It also would certainly not be the first time that Z/28 outperformed "lower" models of the Corvette. In the early '70's for example....LT-1 was standard in Z/28...but an option on Corvette....the lower perf L-48 being the Vette's standard motor.

I'm sure there are marketing studies that show that, but the day of renegade performance levels in various makes of cars died out over 30 years ago. It's all GM powertrain now, centralized, analyzed and controlled.

Really, there's NO logical reason for GM to do this. The price and power ratings all line up correctly with a $35K 400hp(underrated 375hp) Z/28, a $45K 400hp (rated 400hp) C6, and a $55K 500hp (rated 500hp) Z06.

There's no explaining to a confused customer why the C6 has 400hp and costs $10K more than this 450 or 500hp Z/28. You want fast, buy a Z/28. You want faster, buy a C6. You want the fastest, buy the Z06.

It's the M*stang that might make things change though. HP will just have to go up in the Corvette to give the Camaro more room to do what it has to.

I think 35k is too much for a Camaro and I frankly don't theink they will be that high. I think 30k is more like it. At 35k, it is too close in price to the C6. The base Camaro I think will start just under 20k and go to maybe 23-24k. There is no way that the V8 car will have about a 12k premium over the base. The key to this whole thing is affordability and at 35k for the V8 model, that is not affordable. The base V8(whatever it may be called) will be priced a little more than a Mustang GT just like it was unless they skip the eqivilent of a low optioned car(Z28) and do an SS type car with all the extra add ons that jack up the price. I don't think this would happen because that will be left to the higher performance version. That base V8 car has to be there and only then can you provide a higher model that costs more. I don't think GM will skip that step and offer a 35k base V8 Camaro.

I think a 30k 6.0 V8 Camaro is not out of the question at all. If we look back, we see that the LS1 Z28 was about 24k and that was the car that almost performed as well as the Vette. So the 5th gen equivilent will have the 6.0 base Vette motor and perform almost as well as the Vette and should not increase too much in price. The C5-C6 didn't so why would the 5th gen Camaro(I know the IRS will add some)?

Speculation:

With inflation, I can see a full-book, fully optioned SS going for over $35,000 in 2008 and packing 450hp and AWD - basically an LS2 with some upgrading.

Z28's will probably stay under $30,000 and in the 400hp range - a straight LS2 identical to that in the C6, regular Camaros will end up in the $23,000-$24,000 range with an HV V6.

I'm hoping for an SS with 400HP and all the options at about $34,000 at the most. If it has the LS2 from the base Corvette not only will it move, but it will be slower than the base C6 by default because it will weigh more and have all the features. This would almost likely be the sales leader for the Camaro unless Base and RS's are popular and done nicely too.

Then I'm hoping for a Z28 with less options, less weight, and with 450HP or more which should take care of the top M*stang and base C6 because of the extra power, reduced weight, and better less compliant suspension. It would be all-out performance at around $40,000. Lets be real, a Corvette buyer is going to a dealer to buy a Corvette, which is a different car with more advantages over the Camaro even if it wasn't as fast. The top Camaro still won't be as fast as the top Corvette.

Then for some fun, why not a really limited ZL1 that puts an exclaimation on it. :D I don't even want to list a price for this car.

Let's keep in mind boring models and setup like 4th Gens equals destruction for the F-Body once again. Placing each model accurately to their history and making each really distinctively mean something is a necessity for this new Gen. (as is true dual exhaust ;))

Originally posted by hp_nut





I'm sure there are marketing studies that show that, but the day of renegade performance levels in various makes of cars died out over 30 years ago. It's all GM powertrain now, centralized, analyzed and controlled.



Hard to disagree with that. And how convenient for GM, if all they had to worry about was carving up this segment in a vacuum, based soley on Camaro and Corvette.

But of course, they don't have that luxury. In addition to the myriad of current and future competitors.....there is that Mustang bogey:

300 hp- mid to high $20K
350-400hp (Specialty models), high$20's to low $30's
500hp - high $30's to $40K.

Camaro must show it's presence here. It might not compete horsepower for horsepower and dollar for dollar with SVT Cobra....but it at least needs a model that can destroy the "Specialty" models--- performance wise....and hopefully at the very least approach SVT.

In addition to not offending Corvette...Camaro must impress Mustang.

I think that even in the Land of the Corvette, there are still people who's main concerns are;
1) It's a "Corvette"...Crazy Good Looks!.."Look at ME!..)
2) It needs to get some "decent" milage..(practical),but perform decently too...at least be faster than average..

So, I think it would leave plenty of room for a top-line "SS" to out-power a base model Vette...And the "ZO6" which is still a Vette, would still be "King of the Hill"!..

Stanadard Camaro(Z costing just under $30K) vs standard Vette = Vette faster..(slightly)(prices are @ decently equipped)

(Optional "SS" vs standard Vette = "SS" faster)("SS" costing just under $35K)

Optional "SS" vs Vette ZO6 = Vette ZO6 faster..(stock :D )

And maybe a "Skunk Works" ZL1 (BBC?@Low $45K) = everything slower..:D

The Corvette needs to raise its sights above the Cobra's, more towards the "Shelby's", Euro Muscle Cars, Vipers....:cool: The other cars that people with "Money" buy..:D

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I think 35k is too much for a Camaro and I frankly don't theink they will be that high. I think 30k is more like it. At 35k, it is too close in price to the C6. The base Camaro I think will start just under 20k and go to maybe 23-24k. There is no way that the V8 car will have about a 12k premium over the base. The key to this whole thing is affordability and at 35k for the V8 model, that is not affordable. The base V8(whatever it may be called) will be priced a little more than a Mustang GT just like it was unless they skip the eqivilent of a low optioned car(Z28) and do an SS type car with all the extra add ons that jack up the price. I don't think this would happen because that will be left to the higher performance version. That base V8 car has to be there and only then can you provide a higher model that costs more. I don't think GM will skip that step and offer a 35k base V8 Camaro.

I think a 30k 6.0 V8 Camaro is not out of the question at all. If we look back, we see that the LS1 Z28 was about 24k and that was the car that almost performed as well as the Vette. So the 5th gen equivilent will have the 6.0 base Vette motor and perform almost as well as the Vette and should not increase too much in price. The C5-C6 didn't so why would the 5th gen Camaro(I know the IRS will add some)?


I agree. The Z/28 or SS shouldn't be the base V8. There ought to be a 300hp 5.3L RS model for around $25K to match up head to head with the Mustang GT.

I'll go along with a $30K 6.0 Z/28.



Originally posted by Z284ever
Hard to disagree with that. And how convenient for GM, if all they had to worry about was carving up this segment in a vacuum, based soley on Camaro and Corvette.

But of course, they don't have that luxury. In addition to the myriad of current and future competitors.....there is that Mustang bogey:

300 hp- mid to high $20K
350-400hp (Specialty models), high$20's to low $30's
500hp - high $30's to $40K.

Camaro must show it's presence here. It might not compete horsepower for horsepower and dollar for dollar with SVT Cobra....but it at least needs a model that can destroy the "Specialty" models--- performance wise....and hopefully at the very least approach SVT.

In addition to not offending Corvette...Camaro must impress Mustang.

Oh a 400hp LS2 Camaro should be plenty to handle the Machs and Boss specialty stangs that Ford is going to crank out. Chevy will get the IRS right to handle the power correctly unlike the current Cobra. That car weighing in at 3600lbs should run around 12.8 @ 112-114 easily.




Originally posted by 90rocz
I think that even in the Land of the Corvette, there are still people who's main concerns are;
1) It's a "Corvette"...Crazy Good Looks!.."Look at ME!..)
2) It needs to get some "decent" milage..(practical),but perform decently too...at least be faster than average..

So, I think it would leave plenty of room for a top-line "SS" to out-power a base model Vette...And the "ZO6" which is still a Vette, would still be "King of the Hill"!..

Stanadard Camaro(Z costing just under $30K) vs standard Vette = Vette faster..(slightly)(prices are @ decently equipped)

(Optional "SS" vs standard Vette = "SS" faster)("SS" costing just under $35K)

Optional "SS" vs Vette ZO6 = Vette ZO6 faster..(stock :D )

And maybe a "Skunk Works" ZL1 (BBC?@Low $45K) = everything slower..:D

The Corvette needs to raise its sights above the Cobra's, more towards the "Shelby's", Euro Muscle Cars, Vipers....:cool: The other cars that people with "Money" buy..:D

We like to think to think vette buyers are all about image. But they'll raise a stink when Camaros are outrunning them. Chevy values their opinion.

A BB ZL1 Camaro for $45K?

Originally posted by hp_nut





Oh a 400hp LS2 Camaro should be plenty to handle the Machs and Boss specialty stangs that Ford is going to crank out. Chevy will get the IRS right to handle the power correctly unlike the current Cobra. That car weighing in at 3600lbs should run around 12.8 @ 112-114 easily.



What if......

A 500 hp SVT Mustang beats a 400+ hp Z/28 in the 1/4 mile......but a 400+(;) ) hp Z/28 beats a 500 hp SVT around Nurburing?

Originally posted by Z284ever
What if......

A 500 hp SVT Mustang beats a 400+ hp Z/28 in the 1/4 mile......but a 400+(;) ) hp Z/28 beats a 500 hp SVT around Nurburing?

Yeah that wouldn't make Ford too happy. But hey that's what Kenny Brown's for.

Plus a 400hp 6.0 will make only 400 because Chevy put a round cam in it. It's a GMPP LS7 Cam kit away from making the 500hp the Z06 will have. I hope that Chevy does not make a different head for the LS7 vs the LS2. That was the main cost in making LT1s into LT4s and LS1s into LS6s. If the heads are the same, Z/28 owners are $185 away from 500hp.

I can't imagine Ford being too happy about that, either.

Around Nurburgring (for example)....Cobra's Supercooler wouldn't be going all the time. I think it's good for 12-15 sec blasts...and then it needs to regenerate for awhile.

That Cobra 500 hp motor....becomes a 450 hp motor for most of our hypothetical lap around Nurburgring.

Z/28's 400 hp motor ......is actually, oh say, 430.....and hopefully Z/28 wieghs a couple of hundred pounds less than Cobra.


Hey....it could happen!

Originally posted by Z284ever
I can't imagine Ford being too happy about that, either.

Around Nurburgring (for example)....Cobra's Supercooler wouldn't be going all the time. I think it's good for 12-15 sec blasts...and then it needs to regenerate for awhile.

That Cobra 500 hp motor....becomes a 450 hp motor for most of our hypothetical lap around Nurburgring.

Z/28's 400 hp motor ......is actually, oh say, 430.....and hopefully Z/28 wieghs a couple of hundred pounds less than Cobra.


Hey....it could happen!


The Chevy end could happen. The vette will probably receive hp upgrades by 2007 to around 430-435.

But the Ford figures are physically impossible. A 5.4L SC mod motor will make well over 500 without a supercooler.

Here's why. The current 4.6 Cobra makes 425 average with an inefficient Roots charger. There is no possible way that a 17% displacement increase coupled with a vastly more efficient Lysholm screwcharger will yield a mere 25hp. Cobra boys simply upgrading to the KB screwcharger at the same boost level are making 80+hp gains. Then they start turning the boost up.

The '06 Cobra will most probably make a true ~525hp for a 100hp gain over the current model.

Originally posted by hp_nut


The '06 Cobra will most probably make a true ~525hp for a 100hp gain over the current model.

Now you are saying it will be 525 now? I'm sure you would wish that but I wouldn't hold my breath. So what is the GT "supposed" to have if the Cobra equals or eclipses the 500hp figure?

By the way, Ford still hasn't made any announcement stating that the GT will have more than 500 hp so is that still comming or a dead issue?

Originally posted by hp_nut

The '06 Cobra will most probably make a true ~525hp for a 100hp gain over the current model.

I have no doubt that, that's the potential. It's going to be interesting to see how things ultimately pan out.

Mustang was once Ford's Camaro and Corvette. Up until now...there have not been any artificially imposed performance limits.

With the Ford GT and possibly Shelby Cobra.....I wonder if Mustang is about to hit a performance glass ceiling.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Now you are saying it will be 525 now? I'm sure you would wish that but I wouldn't hold my breath. So what is the GT "supposed" to have if the Cobra equals or eclipses the 500hp figure?

By the way, Ford still hasn't made any announcement stating that the GT will have more than 500 hp so is that still comming or a dead issue?


A dead issue. Because we already know the GT makes 600hp based on C&D's 128mph trap speed on a crap run. I'm sure ol' Bob Cosby woulda ripped off a mid 10 at 130+.

I've always typed 500+hp for the Cobra. And there's plenty of good reason for it.

1) Colletti has already stated the GT motor was too expensive to develop just to use in a limited supercar. It's going into other Fords. Even a 525hp 3700lb Cobra is no threat to the GT. It would still be a high 11 car @ 118 or so. Plus since Ford is into underrating stuff so wildly now they'll just call it 475.

2) The Cobra's acknowledged target is the C6. And not to just equal it but beat it. It'll need 500+ to do the job right.

3) The current Cobra is already making 425. All of SVT is going upscale in price and performance. And the Cobra from most rumors is headed into the low 40s. What hp increase do you forsee for a 8-10K price increase?

I have no doubt GM will do something to mess F*rd up with the Camaro and Corvette. :)

Originally posted by IZ28
I have no doubt GM will do something to mess F*rd up with the Camaro and Corvette. :)

Like I said before...it's going to be interesting to see.

GM seems to be in a "total performance" phase....rather than just purely horsepower.

For example:

-The Z06 is reportedly faster around a road course than a much higher horsepower Viper.

-The Ion Redline, with about 20% less power than SRT-4, was handily outlapping it, last year, at Nurburgring.

We'll see......

wow... everyone is getting their panties in a bunch over this ....

lets not forget a couple things

'03 Cobra .... 395HP SUPERCHARGED

'03 Z06 .... 405HP N/A :bow:

The '06 (whatever) cobra will be supercharged as well as ford's little forget me not GT40.

Until Ford whips out a current 400+ N/A engine, and keep it under the gas guzzler tax, im not going to lose sleep over it

Originally posted by IZ28
I have no doubt GM will do something to mess F*rd up with the Camaro and Corvette. :)


The Z06 will outperform the next Cobra. And probably everything this side of the GT, for $55-60K. How much more messed up do you want?:D




Originally posted by cerealtool228
wow... everyone is getting their panties in a bunch over this ....

lets not forget a couple things

'03 Cobra .... 395HP SUPERCHARGED

'03 Z06 .... 405HP N/A :bow:

The '06 (whatever) cobra will be supercharged as well as ford's little forget me not GT40.

Until Ford whips out a current 400+ N/A engine, and keep it under the gas guzzler tax, im not going to lose sleep over it


WRONG.

'03 Cobra .... 370rwhp/.85 = 435 crank SUPERCHARGED

'03 Z06 .... 345 rwhp/.85 = 405 crank N/A

Who cares how it's done? And factory boosted cars make big hp for cheaper.

Originally posted by muckz

Hence, Corvette rule still applies, and there is a Camaro model to run with the Cobra. The question is, how much will such a Camaro cost? Will it be MORE than C6? Less than? Same?

How much will it cost? Now there's a good question.

If Cobra goes for low $40's.....should Camaro chase it? I don't know. SVT is gunning for Corvette with that car. Should Camaro go there?.......I'm torn.

How about a Camaro just as exciting as SVT Cobra (even if it doesn't match it in power), for 5 or 6 thousand dollars less?

Originally posted by ProudPony
It is my understanding that Shelby himself is not interested in building the cars anyways, but in having them done by Ford (or tuner companies), then putting his blessing on them.



That's my understanding also, Proud. This "new" Shelby is a Ford effort, with Shelby merely allowing his name to be used.

And if you read between the lines of all the interviews of Ford executives....it appears that this car is probably headed for production.

Just thinking back...
The "T-Bird" started out life as Ford's "Vette", until slow sales forced them to add a back seat, more weight etc...
Why don't they put more into their "New T-Bird", now a 2 seater again, and restore the competition??
I mean heck, they stuck a V8 in a Taurus...right?
Or mass produce the GT40...