Open Diffy racing.... any tips?

Basicaly jsut competed in my first autcorss in about 9 months, missed it a bit, I forgot what it was like to race with an open diffy, my old camaro had LSD, and my current car does not and I am thinking I might try to stay in Stock classification.



What tips do you guys have for a bit of LSD racing?


Today in my driving, I noticed hard rights, were the hard turns, the inside right rear woudl lose traction, but the car woudl not rotate...

On my last run I came up with an idea, and ran high pressure in the left rear 35psi, and the car rotated a little better on hard rights...


Think I should aim to overinflate it some more?

Left turns are not so bad but not ideal.


Thanks for your your guys help!

V6 Camaros were available with an LSD, so you could get one and still run stock.

Stock doesn't allow update/backdate, though, so to use it you'll have to convert entirely to the model/package that used it.

In other words, if the LSD was only available in a "performance package" that also included different springs, brakes, "ground effects" or whatever, you need to install everything, not just the LSD. That isn't necessarily bad, just more time and money.

I don't remember what the V6 options were, so this is just a heads up. You need to research the available options before you buy.

Also, you can only upgrade to an LSD that was available in your model and year (or the model yopu convert to), so you can't use a T2R. You also can't use a T2 if the Auburn was the only available option for your year.

Originally posted by t.renz
V6 Camaros were available with an LSD, so you could get one and still run stock.

Basically what the guy above me mentioned...


The optin you are talking about is Y87

It offers
-4 wheel disc(doesn't apply to 98+ since they all had 4 wheel disc)
-3.42 for autos over 3.08s
-Lsd
-dual outlet muffler, I think its the same design as a Z28 muffler(I wouldn't mind putting one of these on
-and the one part I don't really feel like changing just yet, is the steering rack it has a tighter turning radius steering rack


Stuff I might do one day but not right away...

"The option you are talking about is Y87

It offers
-3.42 for autos over 3.08s
-Lsd
-dual outlet muffler, I think its the same design as a Z28 muffler(I wouldn't mind putting one of these on"

Is there an autocross club that cares what muffler you use?

"-and the one part I don't really feel like changing just yet, is the steering rack it has a tighter turning radius steering rack"

The rack just changes the steering ratio, not the turning radius. It means you have to turn the wheel less, which should be an advantage. I don't blame you for not wanting to change it, tho.

If it were me I'd be worrying more about accelerating off the corner than rotating the car. I'd run a soft rear for traction and live with the understeer by entering the corners a bit slower.

Well the plan is to stay in a "stock" class

rules in this club say must be factory stock or oem repalcemtn stock.

I don't really care about changing the muffler, but few hp would be nice...

But to be in stock, I have to do the entire upgrade package, which is still 3.23s for my 5-speed, but has lsd, better muffler, and the steering rack. like I said I could care less about the muffler, relatively easy, but the steering rack, bit of a bitch, but I woudl have to do it to stay stock. I might just stay stock for a bit then later move up ot prepared...

And accelerating out of corners is sort of the problem... I have a hard time doing it on hard rights... I am running stock rear sway with a 17mm, so the rear is pretty soft, I even kept jack and spare in hoping it will help weigh it down, but the right rear kept losing traction, I tired to compensate a little with featehring the clutch, and letting up on the gas.

left turns are not really a problem...


Maybe I should run NASCAR... and do all left turns :)

Eric,

I would try to get a 35mm front bar if I were you. Watching your car go around the course it looked like it had a ton of body roll. So much so I bet the bigger bar would help traction coming out of corners by keeping the inside rear planted better.

According to Chuck the front bar won't knock you out of stock either.

i thought the lsd was an option all by itself later on
can't remember but g80 or something sounds right as the rpo for just lsd
so couldnt you throw that in and still remain in stock class?

I fit was available on that year and model car and was an option all by itself, yes.

If you just run local events I'm sure no one is going to complain. I know with the SCCA the V6 F-Body's run G-Stock and are generally not too competitive in that class anyway. So it's not not like you're going to add the diff and run off and leave everyone. No offense intended, :D

I went back and looked, there was a V6 '99 Camaro that finished 6th at the nationals in 2002 abut none ran in 2003.

Originally posted by Soma07
Eric,

I would try to get a 35mm front bar if I were you. Watching your car go around the course it looked like it had a ton of body roll. So much so I bet the bigger bar would help traction coming out of corners by keeping the inside rear planted better.

According to Chuck the front bar won't knock you out of stock either.

I still find it odd going to a 355mm front woudl still be st0ock but I couldn't even remove my paper air filter... I woudl want ot look into it further...

And yeah I know body roll is bad on this car... I coudl feel it defineitly waaay over my old 94 with 1LEs, and bad shocks :)

hehe don't worry I know v6 f-bodies are not ideal for autocrossing :) But they are still manual RWD cars... shich helps a little...


The option code is G80 but I ma not sure if it coudl be a stand alone option in itself, I know 3.42s, coudl be and it was usually associated with the Y87 package but it was not on some y87 cars..

In the SCCA you can change the front bar and the air filter. You can even put a CAI on. AND you can change any part of the exhaust past the cat and still be stock. Oh yea, you can also run Hoosier's or Kumho's too!

Originally posted by bruecksteve
In the SCCA you can change the front bar and the air filter. You can even put a CAI on. AND you can change any part of the exhaust past the cat and still be stock. Oh yea, you can also run Hoosier's or Kumho's too!

Er, you can do the front bar, and a different filter, but you can't change the airbox, install a CAI or a lid. Sorry.

Originally posted by bruecksteve
I went back and looked, there was a V6 '99 Camaro that finished 6th at the nationals in 2002 abut none ran in 2003.

He also led a day @ Nationals, I think the year before...
I helped with setup work on that car.

FWIW, this is one car when prepped for stock that I would not use a 35mm bar on. Because you can't change the rear bar out, you end up with too much of a disparity. I use(d) solid 32's on the V-6 cars for GS, and that's what we had on Edwin's car (the one mentioned above).

I don't know every detail for the Y87 vs. the stock one. All the ones you listed are mostly correct, but there maybe some other small things that Y87's had that normal cars didn't, like maybe different springs. You have to convert the whole car to Y87 specs for it to remain SCCA stock-class legal. The exhaust doesn't matter, as mufflers are free. As far as I know the Y87's had 3.42's with the 5-speed and the diff. Diff's are cheap, if the car has 3.42's that's a done deal. You need only install a LSD, and check your springs and bushings are legal (I think they are). At that point you slap some good shocks on, a bigger front bar, race tires and you have yourself a Nationally competitive car.

Hmmm, I won't say who did that. ;)

SO you think 32mm woudl be best to go, darn gave one away with my old car thinking I was gonna upgrade to a 35mm... :)

I am about 75% sure that y87 5-speeds came with 3.23s and autos came with 3.42s...

I wouldn't mind 3.42s though I had them on my last v6'maro 5-speed, helped me alot...

Originally posted by MustangEater82
SO you think 32mm woudl be best to go, darn gave one away with my old car thinking I was gonna upgrade to a 35mm... :)

I am about 75% sure that y87 5-speeds came with 3.23s and autos came with 3.42s...

I wouldn't mind 3.42s though I had them on my last v6'maro 5-speed, helped me alot...

The 35 is a great bar, I love mine. But I also have a 19mm rear bar to help it out, you don't. You also don't have the torque and as much of a traction issue as the V-8 cars do either, which is a plus. I do use a solid 32mm bar, not a hollow. While pretty damn close in stiffness, if you are going to bother, you might as well go for the slightly stiffer one. IMHO

I think it's the other way around with the gears. At least that's how it's been from the time of the 3rd gen until production ended. Only '93's had 3.23's and a stick.

Facts I know abotu 4th gen v6s...

93-95.5(3.4Ls) all had GU5, 3.23s, manaul or auto.
95.5(3.8L california cars in 95)-97
-all manuals had 3.23s
-autos had 3.08s
-Y87 only had 3.42s, lsd, and other goodies if auto...
-Y87 manuals still retained 3.23s

98+
-autos had 3.08s
-manuals had 3.23s
-y87 had 3.42s
-around 00 or so, 3.42s were being put into non y87 cars, but still with an open diffy.


A few people think that G80 was a factory option withouty87 but not sure people still researching...

But no one has ever heard of 3.42s, on a manual form factory, in fact they bashed somoene that said he ran a good time "stock style" becuase he added 3.42s, and other y87 stuff to a 5-speed.

Actualy 1st gear is alot of gear in 4th gen t-5s, 3.42s would actually make it kind harder to drive, so I can see it never being a factory option...

As for not enough torque for a bigger bar...

my car has slowed, entered a corner, then accelrated out, been fine for a bit but towards the end started to push...

not sure if its me still being too aggressive or a car thing?

Alright found some facts about my car and Y87...

2000 had...

Auburn Limited Slip Differential (G80)
P235/55R16 Goodyear Eagle (QCB)
Dual Exhaust
Sport Steering (14.4:1 ratio – same as V8 cars)
4-wheel disc brakes but that was standard 98+


here is Y87 info for al year 4th gen v6s...
http://tech.firebirdv6.com/y87.html

Still working on if lsd was an option...

"FWIW, this is one car when prepped for stock that I would not use a 35mm bar on. Because you can't change the rear bar out, you end up with too much of a disparity. "

Sam (if you're around), a question.

I understand your point about the disparity. But, with no LSD, might that be less important than the combination of improved camber control and keeping more weight on the inside rear with the bigger front bar?

Originally posted by MustangEater82
As for not enough torque for a bigger bar...

my car has slowed, entered a corner, then accelrated out, been fine for a bit but towards the end started to push...

not sure if its me still being too aggressive or a car thing?

Hard to say, could be a lot of factors. Alignment, tires, pressures, shocks, diff, etc. can all play in. 99% of the time 98% of the push is driver induced.... :D

Generally RWD cars with decent power and weak, worn-out or NO LSD's are power on oversteering types. Now if you try and just turn and slam on the go pedal you can make anything push too. I've seen two co-drivers make the same car act completely differently just because they drove it differently.

If it enters well, it's a sign you are not too fast in, which is good. Trick is; when do you start to accelerate? If it's immediately after turn-in, it's likely too soon most of the time, which will get you in an understeer.

Originally posted by V6Bob
"FWIW, this is one car when prepped for stock that I would not use a 35mm bar on. Because you can't change the rear bar out, you end up with too much of a disparity. "

Sam (if you're around), a question.

I understand your point about the disparity. But, with no LSD, might that be less important than the combination of improved camber control and keeping more weight on the inside rear with the bigger front bar?

A bar is only going to help get power down so well. No LSD is always going to send all the power to the tire with the least amount of traction. A 3" bar will not cure a car with any kind of torque and a solid axle in that case. A smaller rear bar would help more, but it isn't stock legal and most don't want to make the rear softer, though it will work with the right shocks and springs. Still not legal, but faster. :)

Well I am finding my rear sway may be 15mm, not even 17mm... SO it is a pretty small rear bar....


which would be better for the front though, 35mm, or 32mm?

IF you rear bar is that small, you wouldn't want to go larger than a 32mm in the front. IF you don't mind running in some class other than stock, change BOTH the front and rear, in which case you could go 35mm/19mm or maybe even 21mm OR 25mm.

15mm huh? I bet that's another difference with a Y87 car, the rear bar being 17mm...... I think 32 is still workable with a 15mm bar, or you could now go 30mm off a Z28 or Firebird Formula. I bet you only have a 28mm front bar. the Y87 is the fastest in the end. The LSD is only going to help, it'll allow a little more rear bar which means you can run more front bar to help the camber curve too.

"15mm huh? I bet that's another difference with a Y87 car, the rear bar being 17mm"

Nope. Y87 is just LSD, steering ratio, muffler, and 235/55-16 tires.

In 98 GM made the springs stiffer and the bars softer on all V6s.

Originally posted by 01 FS Z28
... 99% of the time 98% of the push is driver induced.... :D...

I think he hit it on the head there Eric. You seem to tend to be a bit aggressive. I know that doesn't sound right coming from me. lol But as far as this LSD rear goes... I would just put it on and forget about it. If you start attending more regularly, your driving will get better too. But nobody is gonna protest you. If you start beating people then you might find it feasible to do the other upgrades. But by then I predict that you'll be wanting to do other stuff and move to Prepared class anyway. I know that isn't the right thing to do. And it's definately against the rules. But MSCC is a laid back club. Our priority is having a good time. When we start getting the "national" guys like Ian Stewart running their mouths eyes start to roll on most peoples' faces. If you were contending for Tiger points or a class championship I'd worry about it. Otherwise. just do it and have fun.

BTW guys - Martin Sports Car Club follows the SCCA model pretty closely. But we feel it's better to have a "stock class" where the only mods allowed are the front swaybar and airfilter. You have to run street tires too. I don't see the LSD as making that huge of a difference with Eric though. In fact I think he saves more time by spinning the inside tire. He used to spin both of them in the old car and loop around. lol :D

Maybe you should save up the money for the LSD and spend it on a day at the Evolution driving school on 2/7. It looks like almost the entire MSCC FBody crew is planning on being there. Looks like Sam might be coming to town. Any word yet Sam?

Chuck

Gang, I talked to the boss and it looks like I'm officially nuts. I'm coming to Orlando for the 2/7 Evo. school. I'm only doing it because many of you are my customers and I'd like to meet you. :D

I must be nuts. I get to drive to FL, back to Atlanta, back to Orlando, then to Fort Myers and back to PA on this trip. Only and extra 900 miles, just so I can instruct y'all! ;)

I must be insane. :cry:

Maybe you'll be worn out for the Pro Solo and I'll get REAL lucky... :D

Any word yet on the re-classification??

Originally posted by bruecksteve
Maybe you'll be worn out for the Pro Solo and I'll get REAL lucky... :D

Any word yet on the re-classification??

Nah, I'm staying @ Tommy's.... Nice and quiet, plenty of rest. I hope like hell the T2R's get here soon so you guys can run 'em. I almost feel bad that I have two of them. Actually, I don't. :D

No word yet. I'm not going to push it, probably wouldn't do our case much good. :)

Originally posted by 01 FS Z28
I hope like hell the T2R's get here soon so you guys can run 'em. I almost feel bad that I have two of them. Actually, I don't. :D

:eek: :cry:

Just buy a take-off posi from SLP, and throw it in. They will never know the difference.

Originally posted by 01 FS Z28
Gang, I talked to the boss and it looks like I'm officially nuts. I'm coming to Orlando for the 2/7 Evo. school. I'm only doing it because many of you are my customers and I'd like to meet you. :D

I must be nuts. I get to drive to FL, back to Atlanta, back to Orlando, then to Fort Myers and back to PA on this trip. Only and extra 900 miles, just so I can instruct y'all! ;)

I must be insane. :cry:

Well if you could possibly stay in town till Sunday afternoon, I'd like to officially invite you to be our distinguished guest at the Martin Sports Car Club February event that will be held at the same location as the driving school. That would be too cool.

Hmmm. You don't run in FP do you? Oops. Maybe I don't want you to. j/k I'm sure all the guys I slapped around last year would love to see me get my a$$ handed to me big time. :D

I could probably get you classed in Novice. lol

Yeha I know what you are saying chuck...

Driver is my most important mod... at the moment...

I just did not want ot do something that might, screw me over for later in. Also one of my plans was to stay out fo GP for a bit, focus on driving, since I jsut got slaughtered by the guys on race tires... Also last ime I was out there, kept getting put up agianst Ian and some of his friends ain a 96 MAxima, that pulled awesome times... Figured I could avoid some of that staying in stock then he shows up in some Girls Celica, with some barealy streetable front tires, and slaughters up GS, at least he later moved to GP that day, and won that.

As for EVo school, as much as I woudl love to attend not sure I could afford that...

I am gonna dump some money into tires(still on factory with 36,000 miles with me driving on them :eek: ), need to start saving for my next insurance payment, also planning a cruise...

Plus looking at a QTP cutout in the future... as much as I enjoy autocrossing, I seem to be more competitive in the v6 drag racing world :)



hehe and I have thought of running 35 fornt solid and a 19mm rear with LSD, maybe a ls1 driveshaft, shifter, tranny mount, maybe some LCAs and pass off as stock ;)