Engine Masters Challenge

What engines will prove the suprises and what kind of hp #s do you think we will see?

To make this more Adv., is there an advantage to using a solid flat cam over a hydro roller? I have noticed that with the small block version those were the two choices that people made. Wouldn't the best be a solid roller? Also, how streetable are these engines? I see them using huge duration #s on the bb engines. I always thought that you want to use the best flowing heads with the best cam to make the best power. It looks like some of the guys are using the biggest cam they can find.

I think you might see something surprising from the oldsmobile team this year.

Originally posted by mastrdrver
What engines will prove the suprises and what kind of hp #s do you think we will see?

To make this more Adv., is there an advantage to using a solid flat cam over a hydro roller? I have noticed that with the small block version those were the two choices that people made. Wouldn't the best be a solid roller? Also, how streetable are these engines? I see them using huge duration #s on the bb engines. I always thought that you want to use the best flowing heads with the best cam to make the best power. It looks like some of the guys are using the biggest cam they can find.

Thoughts:

EM 2002, the original 366 cube small block competition allowed hydraulic rollers, but outlawed solid rollers. I don't think any entrant used flat lifters.

EM 2003, the 470 cube big block one, outlawed all roller cams. Large duration is about the only way to get high lifts (and area under the lift curve) with flat lifters, especially with the small Chevy diameter lifter. I believe all entrants use solid flats.

EM 2004, the 410 cube small blocks, flats, hydraulic and solid rollers are allowed. My prediction is lots of soild rollers and again no flats.

EM scoring is average torque plus average hp (or area under the curves) from 2500 to 6500 rpm. IMO, the flat lifter BBC rule made that difficult to get a flat torque curve, and placed more emphasis on the higher rpm numbers. (BBC ran 3000-6500 because dynos had trouble holding the torque at 2500).

Some of the EM 2002 366 cube small blocks were very streetable. I saw 900 rpm idles with no lope, and tremendous torque from 2500 to the 5000 torque peaks in the low/mid 500s. There were also others that would barely sustain WOT at 2500, probably due to too much overlap and or too much carb.

As far as estimating max hp for 2004 (remembering that average is how it's scored, not max) just getting the same hp/cube on the 410s as Joe Sherman did on his 366 (603 hp) would give 675 hp. With solid rollers allowed, I think that's possible. You might even see 600 ft-lb of torque.

I'd like to see an Olds do well. The diesel block is allowed, and there are some fairly good heads now available.

Now if you are really interested in predicting, there will also be a Virtual EM contest, where anyone can use special Dyno Sim software and submit an entry. The Virtual entry that comes closest to matching the real winner will get a big prize. $10Gs, if I remember correctly. Now that should be fun! Look for it in Pop Rod. It was a go as of PRI show earlier this month.

Bottom line is that you have to match everything in the system to get the most torque and power in the rpm range you plan to operate. This of course applies to any racing engine design, but to the extreme in an Engine Masters competition.

My $.02

Originally posted by OldSStroker
Now if you are really interested in predicting, there will also be a Virtual EM contest, where anyone can use special Dyno Sim software and submit an entry. The Virtual entry that comes closest to matching the real winner will get a big prize. $10Gs, if I remember correctly. Now that should be fun! Look for it in Pop Rod. It was a go as of PRI show earlier this month.


The sad thing is that all of the builders will be entered in the virtual competiton too so we are probably going to be close on that, well at least I know Old SStroker is going to be close on my motor.


BTW, I don't advertise here but I am looking for a home for the old 365 and a sponsor/owner for the new 409 SBC. If anyone is interested in being part of the build up and getting a sweat deal on a 700hp streetable SBC for their car then shoot me a e-mail. By sweet deal I mean big cost savings on the parts and all of our work for free, plus it's going to be dyno tuned to within a inch of it's life. My guess on the motor is around $15K, but considering it's going to be on par with Jimlabs motor in the HP department and he spent $35K that's not a bad deal.

Bret

heh...

You guys better hope Andy Miller doesn't decide to enter a DX oldsmobile with the new heads he's been working with. ;)

That's what they said about the Caddy Bulldog heads last year. Didn't see a Caddy in the top ten. The Buicks, Olds and Pontiacs did slightly better than I thought they would do but still didn't take home any money.

Not knocking the heads, but they have to be legal for the contest before anyone can even worry about them.

Seriously, there is 50 years of development work in the 23 deg SBC head, and there are about 5 excellent choices for this contest.

SBF, SBM and SBC are really the motors to beat. The DX is a interesting setup and you can overbore the snot out of them, but it's really not at an advantage over those motors.

Either way there are going to be some in the contest so it will be good to see.

Bret

Not knocking the heads, but they have to be legal for the contest before anyone can even worry about them.

There has been a lot happeneing there, and there should be at LEAST two news heads out this year that will be legal for competition.

That guy I mentioned does like to use the DX block.

I recall he used to run a 3200 olds with a 400+ inch DX motor and BB heads.
He would twist that sucker to over 9000rpm and the car ran best times of 9.01 & 149mph.

If he decided to enter the competition with either the new Bulldogs, the Rocket Racing heads, or this other new "mystery" head I've been hearing about, you'd see some REAL interesting things at the challenge.

Originally posted by OldSStroker
EM 2002, the original 366 cube small block competition allowed hydraulic rollers, but outlawed solid rollers. I don't think any entrant used flat lifters.

Here (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0305PHR_EmFinals/), Tim Davis used a solid flat in his engine and made it in the top 5, unless it was a missprint, and I know that Sherman used a roller cam.

Originally posted by mastrdrver
Here (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0305PHR_EmFinals/), Tim Davis used a solid flat in his engine and made it in the top 5, unless it was a missprint, and I know that Sherman used a roller cam.

Oops! You are correct. I missed that.

I think Tim will be in EM 2004.

Do you think there is a reason that he used the solid flat over a roller cam? How do the ramp rates of a solid flat compare to a hydro roller?

Originally posted by mastrdrver
Do you think there is a reason that he used the solid flat over a roller cam? How do the ramp rates of a solid flat compare to a hydro roller?

Mostly because there are not any Hyd Roller lifters for the old school 360 blocks. Maybe one of the new Magnum 360 blocks would work, but then that screws everything else up.

Flat tappet lobes are much less aggressive vs roller lobes. For a given amount of duration the roller lobe will have more area than a flat lobe will.

Bret

Originally posted by SStrokerAce
Mostly because there are not any Hyd Roller lifters for the old school 360 blocks. Maybe one of the new Magnum 360 blocks would work, but then that screws everything else up.

Screws everything else up? What is that suppose to mean?:confused:

Not a Mopar guy here but I think that the Magnum block and parts is a lot like the SBC compared to the LT1. Same but different.

Bret

If Oldsmobile motors made any kind of power they would still be making them. The blocks and cranks weigh a ton and the heads breathe like a 90 year old coal miner. A bowtie will win hands down.

Originally posted by 94mikey
If Oldsmobile motors made any kind of power they would still be making them. The blocks and cranks weigh a ton and the heads breathe like a 90 year old coal miner. A bowtie will win hands down.

New in town, Sailor?

Don't hold back, tell us what you think. :)

You don't think the 23 degree valve angle will handicap the bowties compared to the other brands?

The Olds guys I know like being told their motors won't work...then they prove folks wrong.

Would any of the top-finishing engines be REALLY USABLE in a weekend fun car (that maybe sees some limited street duty) or are they compromised to the point they're really only good for a few dyno pulls? i.e. a purpose-built dyno queen engine?

I gotta admit that a REAL 600+HP 360ci N/A small block is a feat far beyond my capability. If I ever came into some money and wanted a real a$$-kicker the thought of placing a call to one of these shops has crossed my mind. But would I be getting the same thing that actually hits the dyno in competition or a watered-down "sanitized for your protection" version?

Originally posted by Damon
Would any of the top-finishing engines be REALLY USABLE in a weekend fun car (that maybe sees some limited street duty) or are they compromised to the point they're really only good for a few dyno pulls? i.e. a purpose-built dyno queen engine?

I gotta admit that a REAL 600+HP 360ci N/A small block is a feat far beyond my capability. If I ever came into some money and wanted a real a$$-kicker the thought of placing a call to one of these shops has crossed my mind. But would I be getting the same thing that actually hits the dyno in competition or a watered-down "sanitized for your protection" version?

I depends. The intent of the competition is to build a "street" engine which can be duplicated. That being said, the idea of each entrant is to WIN. IMO, that means taking advantage of all the rules. I'm pretty sure some folks might push static or dynamic CR's to the point that 92 octane barely is enough. You could just run better gas on the street.

Also, on the positive side, it's probably difficult to fully load an EM engine on a street car at 2500 and only allow it to accelerate at 300 rpm per second, except maybe in top gear, which you probably wouldn't do anyway. On the negative side, EM engines are designed for 6500 max rpm, with a few hundred rpm overrun. Most pull so strongly @ 6500, and may have a fairly flat power peak that you would very likely try to wind it to 7+. That might require more spring pressure than the engine was built with and that could cause problems. Winning EM engines don't have any more of anything, except maybe component strength without compromising weight, than they need. IMO, top rpm might be the biggest problem.

The other thing is cost. You could buy an ex-EM engine for maybe $15,000, but to duplicate a winning or placing one, with all the coatings, etc. might easily top $20,000. Even then, the builder would probably suggest changes (like valve springs) to help it live on the street. Some of the little, but perhaps costly things could be eliminated with only a few percent power loss. Of course, that fraction of a % won the 2002 contest!


Bottom line: IMO any high end race engine, dyno or track, would not be optimum for use in a very different enviornment, like a weekend fun car. EM engines might be close, however if you kept within their design rev range.

There are a few for sale, if you fall into that $.

A few for sale, lol well you know one that is.

Our old 365 with 570hp and 535 ft lbs would be an awesome driver. A 214/224 cam is not very crazy and it's one change in the distributor to get the timign curve street gas friendly. That ones for sale for about 1/2 of what it would cost to build from scratch.

As the old man said, if you want a watered down version you can get one, if you want the exact copy or one of the ones from the contest you can get one of those too.

IMHO my goal is always to win, but with that anything I would build for the contest would be a good street car engine on top of it all. Not something grandma would drive but something you could drive on the street without problems. Building a motor to run in the 2500-6500 rpm range is really what street cars do, most times I build motors that have a much narrower and less street friendly range than that and they are street cars.

Bret

Thanks to both of the SStrokers here for responding.

Good point about the valve springs and compression ratio.

My main concern when I posted was probably more about compression ratio and component strength. Having built a few street motors, my experience is that you can get away with some very high compression ratios FOR A SHORT TIME. Once you put some hours on them (not many, in fact- 6 hours is plenty on the street idling, tooling around town) carbon and such builds up in the chambers and piston faces and the motor goes bang, especially if it's built with lightweight components. 11:1 is not someplace I go often for that reason, unless I've got a fairly large cam in it.

Originally posted by Damon


My main concern when I posted was probably more about compression ratio and component strength. Having built a few street motors, my experience is that you can get away with some very high compression ratios FOR A SHORT TIME. Once you put some hours on them (not many, in fact- 6 hours is plenty on the street idling, tooling around town) carbon and such builds up in the chambers and piston faces and the motor goes bang, especially if it's built with lightweight components. 11:1 is not someplace I go often for that reason, unless I've got a fairly large cam in it.

FWIW, on Bret's EM 365, static CR was over 11.5, with a very high dynamic. That sounds like a recipe for disaster with 92 octane, but on WOT dyno pulls from 2500, and advance for best power, a knock sensor only sensed minor knock just about 3000, for less than one second a pull. When the engine was torn down there was absolutely no signs of any problems. Chamber, piston crown and squish were all pretty well designed, and he ran it a tad rich. Not pig rich, maybe just piglet rich. :)

The 92 octane gas provided by the EM contest had a .735 SG, and seemed at least as knock resistant as Sunoco 94. Of course there is octane and there is octane. The pump number is an average of Research and Motor octane numbers. One favors part throttle and one favors WOT. I guess you could mix a batch of 92 that favored the WOT performance and still legally call it 92. No one fessed up to doing that, but the 11+:1 engines seemed to do wellon it.

By bringing the timing in a few hundred rpm later, the knock disappeared, but the under 3500 rpm torque was off a few lb-ft. I think that's what Bret suggests for running that engine on the street.

As far as component strength, I am familiar with Bret's engine. The parts were more than strong enough. His idea was to do it right, but keep the rotating parts reasonably light. For example, he used a GMPP CNC bowtie block with 8620 main caps. Even the front and rear caps are CNCd from 8620 and all have 4 bolts/studs. It's rated for a 4.16 bore: his was 4.075. 570-600 hp @6500 isn't even making that block work up a sweat.

Not saying that everyone went that way, but some did.