FAST, E-Dist, Crank trigger, Cam sync... argh- what do I need?

Okay- I'm currently running a FAST bank/bank system with Bob's LTCC and the LS1 coils. I'm using the optispark as required for the LTCC.


I'm wondering what exactly is needed to run a conventional SBC and retain my FAST, but use an E-DIST and the LS1 coils?

I think I need to run a crank trigger for the 4X signal and the MSD distributor "plug" for the cam sync, but I'm not sure.

Anyone have any insight on what is actually needed for a "coil on plug" setup w/out the opti?

thanks!

AFAIK yer gonna need to send in your box to FAST HQ and get it changed over. Parts wise i think you're looking at the right stuff once the box is fixed....

Ya need to just put a damned Distributor in it and be done w/ it. :p No need to reinvent the wheel w/ this coil on plug crap, when theres a proven route. :p

JM $.03

If your going to run a conventional SBC then why bother with the coils, just use a distributor.

Your going to need an MSD crank trigger and a cam sync which I would use a hall effect which would mean sending in your F.A.S.T. box and getting it converted to hall effect.

if you want you can PM me and i can talk to you by phone if you'd like.

Why won't the MSD "stub shaft" give you the two sync signals you need?
Hay that e-mail on headers....
You'd have to have the car up here to go that route. I'd look into headman for bbc stuff to fit the body you talked about, they have a "box set". But Brady on the ltcc you have now why not use that with a couple of crank triggers to feed the sync signals to bobs box? You need to "TALK"/ e-mail bob.
You need a one pulse and a 4 pulse I belive if your into a little fab work.

This is also a common LS1 problem.

You need to have a crank signal that is 4x to go into the FAST.

In your case, you might just need a crank trigger.

LS1 FAST tuners like Kurt Urban at Wheel to Wheel or Brian Jeffries at Madman & Company mount an MSD crank trigger off the front of an LS1 oil pan. They add a ring to the backside of the (ATI) damper. This stuff all needs to be trued up too.

Hey Brady if your thinking of doing this I know a local guy that is selling all his coil conversion kit. It would include e-dis box, crank trigger, 8 coils with a custom harness, and the cam sesnsor. However I would use the hall effect, those cam sensors can be a pain. Let me know if your interested.

Why do they go thru the trouble of mounting the ring behind the ATI dampner when the ATI dampner has a raised face on the front that the MSD crank trigger wheel fits nicely over and bolts right to it.
Ive seen a crank trigger on the front of a Dampner on a LS1 before. Just seem like a lot of work to get it behind it.

Rob

In the mess that showed up with my engine, there was one thing that might help you. My SEFI-8LO CPU was packed in a bag with a card that read "Converted 30-116010 to 30-113010".

30-116010 is the LT1/LT4 bank/bank system with wide band 02 option that I originally bought. 30-113010 is listed as "Inductive pickup" on FAST's site, also with wide band 02 option, so it looks like that's the change necessary to allow the SEFI-8LO to fire the injectors using a crank trigger.

I also have the cam stub from the MSD Digital CPC system, but it was not installed, as expected. My MSD crank trigger kit consisted of a used wheel only, no bracket, no sensor, no hardware. And I received a harness of dubious condition (it was originally intended for a front cover mounted cam sensor and was possibly rewired) as well as 8 used LS1 coils, and an eDIST. In other words, I can't tell you if this configuration works, although in theory it should.

During the front cover cam sensor fiasco, my cover was apparently removed and sent with the timing set for modification, but when they weren't returned in a reasonable timeframe (several months), a new timing set and front cover were apparently installed. I say apparently because I haven't been able verify that the front cover ever came off my engine after the dyno session in April of '02 when we had problems with the Opti-spark.

Regardless, the Opti-spark hole in the cover is still open, and welding it closed would require pulling the balancer and pan, so I still have the option of trying to find an Opti-spark that won't spark scatter at high rpm (two were tried, including the brand new one I sent down, I was told) and/or use the LTCC kit, although how that would interface with the SEFI-8LO is a good question.

Or I can try to make my mess work, or just buy the rest of the MSD Digital CPC system (crank trigger, harness, and coils are sold seperately, BTW) and try to interface that with the SEFI-8LO, if required. What a mess. :)

Originally posted by jimlab
Regardless, the Opti-spark hole in the cover is still open, and welding it closed would require pulling the balancer and pan, so I still have the option of trying to find an Opti-spark that won't spark scatter at high rpm (two were tried, including the brand new one I sent down, I was told) and/or use the LTCC kit, although how that would interface with the SEFI-8LO is a good question.

Jim, FYI, GM has a Cover specifically for this purpose, that covers the hole in the front of the timing cover for applications not using the Opti.

How is the clearance behind the engoine (firewall)? Does your sheetmetal intake have provision for distributor? This would simplify everything SOOOO much. I actually have a brand new MSD Small Diameter distributor w/ built in Cam Sync I'm trying to get rid of if you're interested.

Jimlab,

I just went and checked that part number 30-113010 with my F.A.S.T. bank to bank unit and thats the part number I have.

So I went and looked at 2 Sequential F.A.S.T systems I have here and they both have the part number 30-233311.

I think you have a bank to bank system not a sequential??

I'd also like to correct what I said in my first post, You do not need to send in your bank to bank system back to F.A.S.T to have it converted. The edist is what reads the cam sync not the ECU
only in a Sequential system to you need to send it back to F.A.S.T. to get it set up to read the cam sync.

The only thing you need to run the coils with your F.A.S.T. bank to bank system is a MSD crank trigger and an Edidt box and a hall effect sensor.
Inductive pick ups don't work.

Originally posted by KTamez
Jim, FYI, GM has a Cover specifically for this purpose, that covers the hole in the front of the timing cover for applications not using the Opti.Nice. Do you happen to know the part number, by any chance? :)

How is the clearance behind the engine (firewall)? Does your sheetmetal intake have provision for distributor? This would simplify everything SOOOO much. I actually have a brand new MSD Small Diameter distributor w/ built in Cam Sync I'm trying to get rid of if you're interested. Good clearance at the back of the engine for a small diameter distributor (if it came to that) or the cam sync stub.

http://home.gci.net/~jimlab/images/Cradle/P9140012.jpg

All Hogan's SBC-style intakes come with a rear distributor hole by default and it would have cost more than it was worth to have one built without it. :)

http://home.gci.net/~jimlab/images/Intake/PC050046.jpg

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
I think you have a bank to bank system not a sequential??Correct.

I'd also like to correct what I said in my first post, You do not need to send in your bank to bank system back to F.A.S.T to have it converted. The edist is what reads the cam sync not the ECU only in a Sequential system to you need to send it back to F.A.S.T. to get it set up to read the cam sync.Partially true... you do need to send a bank/bank unit back to FAST to have the ECU updated if you're going to drive your injectors off the low-res signal from a crank trigger instead of the Opti-spark.

The only thing you need to run the coils with your F.A.S.T. bank to bank system is a MSD crank trigger and an Edidt box and a hall effect sensor.
Inductive pick ups don't work.Again, partially true. The eDIST drives the coils off the hi-res cam sync, but the SEFI-8LO needs a low-res signal to drive the injectors in bank/bank and a hi-res signal for sequential. The LT1/LT4 SEFI-8LO bank/bank is set up to read the Opti-spark low-res by default and has to be changed to be able to use the crank trigger instead. For a sequential system, this might not be the case, but for the bank/bank units, it is according to FAST.

I have read the age old opti question about: "How do I rid of my whole opti?"

With out giving up to much info I want to offer a little hint to look into and this will not require you to drill the rear of your intake. Check into a front mounted distributor and Jessel belt drive. I know your going to say Jessel doesn't make a belt drive for the LT motor's and the main issue that people face is the cover but trust me when I say this, it is possible to do this setup and it will elimanate the front mounted opti all together. There are other peices required but I think most can figure it out from there.

I'm very sorry for not giving any more info about this setup but that is only because the person that built it asked me to not mention anything about it because he is looking to offer the conversion to the public very soon as the replacement for the opti.

The only down fall is cost of this conversion but then again just about every individual screen name in hear that I have seen post on this one thread doesn't seem to be worried to much about money.

Jim


You guy's check into this little bit and you will see what to do.

I've got a picture of an LT1 with a belt drive conversion somewhere in my archives. :)

Here's what I did on mine...

Mounted the crank trigger on top of the ATI
http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL5/758497/2439102/31580432.jpg

And for the cam sync I'm going to mount it on the belt drive
http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL5/758497/2439102/35081164.jpg

The Crank trigger will plug into the CPS on the Fast harness (green wire on the MSD goes to the red wire on the Fast). And the cam sync will plug into the cam position harness on teh fast. It will aslo be green to red I believe. The Edist will then send signal to the 8 individual coil packs.

Good luck
Later
Chuck

Thanks Chuck! :)

Not a problem. What's new with your motor Jim?

Later
Chuck

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170946&perpage=15&pagenumber=6

:)

Man, what's the deal with all that crap? I thought Mark seemed to be an ok guy to deal with? Do you feel you have been screwed, or is he taking care of all that stuff?

What did the motor make on the dyno after they got the ignition issues resolved? And are you running the cam sync wet or dry? MSD doesn't like them run wet, which is why I went to the belt drive...

Later
Chuck

Originally posted by chucks97ss
Man, what's the deal with all that crap? I thought Mark seemed to be an ok guy to deal with? Do you feel you have been screwed, or is he taking care of all that stuff?The $4,000 payment I sent last December should have covered the outstanding labor bill at B&B (according to Brian the owner, who should know), all the ignition parts (especially since I didn't get everything I apparently paid for), and the shipping. Instead, Mark said that money had been used up, quoted me a new labor bill (with no invoice), plus shipping, and stuck me for a $2,500 "consultation fee" last minute because he didn't feel he was appreciated enough after doing almost nothing for a year. If I didn't pay, he said he'd auction off my engine and deduct $12,100 for his time.

Then after I paid to get him to release control of the engine with B&B, it took him a month and a half to get the parts that weren't at the shop over to them to put in the crate with the engine, which only benefitted him. Not only that, but I didn't receive all the new ignition parts I paid for, didn't even get back all the stuff I'd sent down, and he even swapped a steel flywheel Street Twin for my aluminum version...

Yeah, I got screwed. And it appears that several other people have also.

What did the motor make on the dyno after they got the ignition issues resolved?They never were resolved. Brian said recently that he thought it was only an issue with the Opti-spark. Mark wanted to go coil per cylinder, according to Brian, and sold me on the idea... except that it never got completed, and Mark just kept stringing me along for several months with promises that it was almost done and would be back in the dyno cell soon.

The engine as it arrived is almost untouched from the point at which it was in the dyno cell in April of '02. Except for accumulating a few parts, Mark accomplished almost nothing with it in over a year, and Brian says he was only in twice during that time.

And are you running the cam sync wet or dry? MSD doesn't like them run wet, which is why I went to the belt drive...The cam sync I have is their Digital CPC stub which installs in the distributor hole, so it's wet and intended to be run wet. :)

I'm sure that could be a problem with a sensor mounted in the stock front cover, but that never got completed either. That's probably why Marc (can't remember his alias) isn't using that setup any longer either.

Wow, that totally sucks. So what are you stuck with to figure out? Let me know if I can be of any service....

Later
Chuck

Originally posted by chucks97ss
Wow, that totally sucks. So what are you stuck with to figure out? Let me know if I can be of any service....Thanks Chuck. I got an MSD Digital CPC stub, which wasn't installed. I only got a wheel for an MSD crank trigger (no sensor, no bracket, etc.), so I'll have to buy the complete kit if I'm going that route, which at this point makes sense because my SEFI-8LO was updated. I got an eDist module, and a harness in an unknown state. There is some documentation, but I haven't looked through it to see what it goes to. I'm pretty sure I didn't get my SEFI-8LO manual back, and I don't think the documentation goes with the eDist either.

I need to figure out what the status of the harness is, if possible, and see if it can be used. I don't know what was done to it or if it's even in a useable configuration. The rest of the stuff needs to be installed, after I get a crank trigger kit. BTW, do you know offhand which part number I need to work with my ATI balancer? It seems like my balancer is sticking out pretty far from the front cover. I'm not even sure if it was even bolted on or if it's just stuck on the snout of the crank, to be perfectly honest.

Sorry, new baby in the house (born Tuesday) and things have been a little hectic even without all the problems with my engine. :)

Originally posted by jimlab

Sorry, new baby in the house (born Tuesday) and things have been a little hectic even without all the problems with my engine. :)

hehe, congrats :)

Originally posted by jimlab

Thanks Chuck. I got an MSD Digital CPC stub, which wasn't installed. I only got a wheel for an MSD crank trigger (no sensor, no bracket, etc.), so I'll have to buy the complete kit if I'm going that route, which at this point makes sense because my SEFI-8LO was updated. I got an eDist module, and a harness in an unknown state. There is some documentation, but I haven't looked through it to see what it goes to. I'm pretty sure I didn't get my SEFI-8LO manual back, and I don't think the documentation goes with the eDist either.

I thought the stub was missing though? Just answer this, do you have any form of cam sync installed on the motor currently? If not installed, do you have what you need (ie, the distributor stub)? If you wanted to go the belt drive route I could help you out with that.

Originally posted by jimlab

I need to figure out what the status of the harness is, if possible, and see if it can be used. I don't know what was done to it or if it's even in a useable configuration. The rest of the stuff needs to be installed, after I get a crank trigger kit.

Which harness is missing? There is a harness that comes with the Fast (that does work on an LT1, you just have to change the plugs for the TPS and IAT), and then there is all the wiring that comes with the Edist. What exactly is missing?

]Originally posted by jimlab

BTW, do you know offhand which part number I need to work with my ATI balancer? It seems like my balancer is sticking out pretty far from the front cover. I'm not even sure if it was even bolted on or if it's just stuck on the snout of the crank, to be perfectly honest.

Yeah, just measure to see what size your balancer is, then order the crank trigger kit that is a step larger than your balancer. I believe mine is a 7 or 7.500" balancer with an 8" crank trigger wheel.

As for the ATI sticking out... yes, that is the first thing we noticed with mine after installing it. I believe they stick out to clear the opti spark. You obviously want to check and make sure everything is properly torqued, but be assured it does stick out a little bit.


How about you ship that thing to Houston and I whip it into shape for you? I'm busy for the next month trying to get my car, and assist with getting 3 other cars ready for the Thunder shootout, but once that is over I should have the time to get everything straightend out on yours, put it on the dyno, and get it to where you can finally put it into the FD3 :) Let me know if that is of any interest to you.

Later
Chuck

Originally posted by chucks97ss
hehe, congrats :)Thanks! :)

I thought the stub was missing though? Just answer this, do you have any form of cam sync installed on the motor currently? If not installed, do you have what you need (ie, the distributor stub)? If you wanted to go the belt drive route I could help you out with that.I have a new MSD Digital CPC cam stub, not installed on the engine, but I'm always open to suggestions.

Which harness is missing? There is a harness that comes with the Fast (that does work on an LT1, you just have to change the plugs for the TPS and IAT), and then there is all the wiring that comes with the Edist. What exactly is missing?I have the SEFI-8LO harness which doesn't seem to have been touched from what I could tell, and I have an eDist harness that came from NE Dyno that Mark said was wired incorrectly. I don't know if Mark "rewired" it as he said he was going to, or if it's still in the same state as delivered, or if either state works. :)

Yeah, just measure to see what size your balancer is, then order the crank trigger kit that is a step larger than your balancer. I believe mine is a 7 or 7.500" balancer with an 8" crank trigger wheel.Thanks, guess that should have been pretty easy to figure out. :)

As for the ATI sticking out... yes, that is the first thing we noticed with mine after installing it. I believe they stick out to clear the opti spark. You obviously want to check and make sure everything is properly torqued, but be assured it does stick out a little bit.OK, that makes sense and it may just look odd without the Opti in place. Here's a picture...
http://www.rx7club.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=2207471

How about you ship that thing to Houston and I whip it into shape for you? I'm busy for the next month trying to get my car, and assist with getting 3 other cars ready for the Thunder shootout, but once that is over I should have the time to get everything straightend out on yours, put it on the dyno, and get it to where you can finally put it into the FD3 :) Let me know if that is of any interest to you.Sounds interesting, especially since I still have the crate here. Send me an e-mail, if you would, and let's discuss it further. :)

Thanks!

K, sent ya mail...

BTW. Your ATI looks about like what mine looks like. So I wouldn't worry about it.

Later
Chuck

Boy do I need to talk to you guys!

I'm in the process of installing an MSD crank trigger and a sequential Speed Pro unit. This cam sensor thing is the only thing I am still wandering about, what did ya'll end up doing about this?
I too am going to run the individual coilpack setup, so I guess that means I need the E Dist too?

Its cool to see some of you are from Houston too, maybe we can get together sometime!

thanks,
Randy

What about using the Accel Dual-sync distributor. Does anyone know if that will fit under the cowl area????

--Sean

Cam sensors that mount in the front of the timing chain cover have proven to be nothing but a head ache. I would call up msd and get the sensor that mounts in the rear of the motor(halo-effect).
If you need a edis box, coils, or harness for everything I have a buddy that is selling all his stuff. drop me an email
sleeperz@hotmail.com

I have a used edist box, and 8 coils only 600 miles of use for sale if anyone is interested.

The accell dual sync distributor will fit under the cowl and it will work, but you need to be runing a FAST or DFI system.

Rob
www.nedyno.com
www.dynotune.org

I'm looking for a deal on an EDist box if it's been used carefully...

FAST is coming out with a plug'n play crank relay that I will use when it comes out in March.

prostockjohn@hotmail.com

Call MADMAN I can give you all the wire colors and schematic. Plus the tricks in syncing the distributor.

A couple questions...

I didn't see anyone answer the question about why the MSD stub can't provide both signals required (hi-res for the eDist, low-res for the crank signal to the ECU). Anyone know?

Second question... my coil brackets and harnesses just showed up, and I assumed that the bolts which hold the coils on screw into the brackets themselves, but the holes aren't tapped with threads. The one bolt that I bought ($2.47!) to make sure I knew what size was required is M6 x 1.0 - 20mm. I can just thread the holes with an M6 x 1.0 tap, but it seems a shame to ruin the coating. Anyone know what the deal is here? I would have assumed these things would come ready to install... :rolleyes:

The bolts are to self tap into the hole.
Kind of sucks but thats how they made them.

Rob

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
The bolts are to self tap into the hole.
Kind of sucks but thats how they made them.Tell me about it. :)

I think I'll just run a tap through them anyway. I'm going to use my own 18-8 stainless fasteners and I don't want to eat up the threads on a bunch of them trying to screw them in.

I was reading through the DFI Gen7 directiosn online and came across the LT1 section. They had a little * on it and said that "Can be run in sequential with adapter box" .. So, I called DFI to see how this would work. They told me you need to have yoru optispark modified to send a cam and crank signal and there is a company doing it in california called Blood Motorsports .. Anyone ever hear of them? I did a search on google and came up blank..

--Sean

reviving

[QUOTE=Sean94Z]I was reading through the DFI Gen7 directiosn online and came across the LT1 section. They had a little * on it and said that "Can be run in sequential with adapter box" .. So, I called DFI to see how this would work. They told me you need to have yoru optispark modified to send a cam and crank signal and there is a company doing it in california called Blood Motorsports .. Anyone ever hear of them? I did a search on google and came up blank..

--Sean[/QUOTE


I talked with them about doing mine. Seem like good people,but wasn't going to pay $500.00 to have it done. Tad spendy in my book.
I have their number here somewhere if you need it,finding it is another story.