This is why i hate gm HIGH TECH MAG

http://www.gmhightechperformance.co...0311htp_frugal/

ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE THEY HAD 10k TO PLAY WITH AND THEY COULD NOT GET THIS CAR OUT OF THE 14 TEENS.


DO YOU GUYS AGREE?
I think GM high tech likes to promote anything that they can get free or who pays to advertise.. (I understand they have to make money to survive as a magazine) but they just seem to publish mis-informed articles They don't write about the real word.. Because I know I can stretch a 10 k budget allot further then they can and have a car that performs allot better then what this article claims ... as always my .02



All this work and they only went
14.48 at 95mph for a 305.... hmmm if i had to do it all over again i would have just did a
cam headers/cat back and a 150 shot.

Ok here is jimmy's break down if give 10K to play with (If i had to get a 3rd gen 5.0)

1) $300 cam/springs
2) $457 headers
3) $167 cat back (hmmm I wonder where GM HIGH TECH got that price)
4) $ 600 NOS (with a msd timing retard ignition box)
5) $100 stall speed converter (s/10 converter from gm)
6) $ 120 control arms and polly tranny mount

with that you probably got 12's

hmmm how much did Jimmy spend ....... $1,324.01 + $ 3000 (for the car) total 4,324.01 ok ok ok i will add the slp rims tires 1799.99 (which i think are a total rip off when you consider that there are allot more choices for that price and they would be cheaper) for a grand total of $ 6124.00 and i still under cut their budget by $3876.00
know if i added back the rims and just bought tires from slp $99 per tire and use the stock 16x8 rims which equals $396,, and take out the nos 600. Then i would put a blower on there and call it a day ...... so if i put back 1799.99 - $400 for just tires... sooo lets say going back to my original price $4324.01- $600 = 3724.01 which leave me with $6275.90 ... buy a 7-9 pound inter cooled blower system (with a fuel pump injectors and programming) which is about $5000.00 this will still leave me with $ 1275.90... giving me the option to add the tokico suspension 498.80 which still leaves me with $777.90. So in anther words these guys don't know how to spends their money and for the poor sap who buys a third gen and wonders why they get blown by by a import after all there mods ....


but if you just gave me 10 k i would buy a good high mileage 4 gen six speed add a cam headers and a cat back with control arms you got a 12 second car .... (LOL)



all THIS WHILE ASUMING THAT THE CAR IS IN GOOD MECHANICAL SHAPE.... (nottttt with a 3rd gen because odd are any extra power they will toast the auto tranny which will add about anther 2-3 k so realistically (in the real word where these guy are not from )

going back the original plan

i would add a tranny rebuild ,,, get vortec heads and intake (for the tpi set up) which is about $1500+ 2200 for the tranny ...

) $300 cam/springs
2) $457 headers
3) $167 cat back
4) $ 600 NOS (with timing retard box )
5) $100 stall speed converter
6) $ 120 control arms and polly tranny mount
7) $2200 tranny (with converter)
8) $1500 vortec heads and intake
9) $498 for suspension springs
10) $396 tires
grand total of 9338.00 (which includes the car) which still leaves me with $662.00 (i can buy two rims and drag tires) (LOL)

and if you really think about it i bet i can get most of the stuff at 1/2 the price used.........



You should give me ten grand to see what I can do in the real world … because the stuff you guys are smoken must be some good stuff …

I know from my own experience with third gens all those bolts on are pretty much useless look at how much money you spend just to gain 20 hp.
I am sorry but these guys look like amateurs when they print stuff like this

he has a bit over 3g's left, isnt that enough for a used 350 block, a stealthram an agressive cam and a case of beer?

Originally posted by kevin 2.8
he has a bit over 3g's left, isnt that enough for a used 350 block, a stealthram an agressive cam and a case of beer?


lol yeah :D ;)

where can you get a catcabck system for 167 bucks ( manderel bent , etc )


....cause I reallllyyyyy need one


...BTW ...sen them that letter ...see what they say :D

I like the massive cam, springs, yes.

~$350

To do this you'd need new exhaust. Headers, etc.

~$400

~$250

But on the 305 i would do head porting and valve work rather than vortecs.

~$500

Don't know about the LB9 (i think that's the right code) heads, but if they're anything like L98 heads i'd do 1.6 roller rockers.

~$250

Assuming used and beat 305, we'll include the rebuild with cast alum or lightwieght forged internals, 'cuase i would never, EVER run nitrous or forced induction on a non-rebuilt stock 305.

~$3500

Now add a massive blower

~$2400

3.73 posi rear gears, PERHAPS (but unlikely) 4.10s

~$500

Now tires and wheels to hold traction with the deep 1st gear of the 700R4

~$1000

I'm not one to guess times, but i'll tell you right now it'd outrun 14 seconds, and i only spent $9,150, with almost everything on the high side of estimation. Now add in buying a beater 305 TPI motor car for $850 and you hit 10K.

wow 7 grand to play with after buying the car....i hate to think that for 7 grand you wouldnt be able to do heads, cam, intake, full exhaust and gears out back. Wait okay full exhaust including headers like 650, some nice afr heads for like a grand...cam is like another 350 for all the cam and springs etc. and like what 500 for an intake?....thats like thats like 3500?!?!? plus taxes itd go to like 4 grand???? you still have like 3 grand left plus youd be easily deep into the 13's......youd have enough left to buy a better tranny, a motown block for the 383 your building on the side, and MULTIPLE cases of beer. I was reading that article ago and was like wtf i dont know jack about cars compared to these guys but they really suck when it comes to spending money!!

Yes my thought exactly that’s why I was compelled to express my self on this board … I think it's a shame what is written in this magazine (because it could be so much more) most of the articles that I read is a bunch of bull and it does not representative the true hot rodder and most of the info is mis-leading. I see so many low budget cars that absolutely rock (including my own see my web site) It’s just picking the correct parts to work for your combo,, working smart and attention to detail. It is not necessary to spend a ton of money to have a fun and fast reliable car.

Anyone who knows the third gen f-body … knows that they need more then silly bolt-ons to make them run It is almost mandatory to upgrade the cam and heads to make any power (which is the biggest restriction) In the article they were going through the trouble to bolt on intake runners and hog out the intake plenum while still using the stock manifold (which is the biggest restriction of the whole system (I am sorry these guys are amateurs or they are just trying to push their sponsors products) to me that was a waste of time and money when a simple cheap cam swap would have yielded them about 35 hp (all that while using the stock intake system). It just amazes me how much junk they try to push though the magazine … I believe about 90% of their article are useless while a few articles yield some good knowledge.

Jim

Yes my thought exactly that’s why I was compelled to express my self on this board … I think it's a shame what is written in this magazine (because it could be so much more) most of the articles that I read is a bunch of bull and it does not representative the true hot rodder and most of the info is mis-leading.

A lot of the reason GMHTP started to sink was when John Hunkins became editor after Richard Lentinello. Hunkins seemed to be the champion of high-buck mods, in large part due to the fact he didn't have to pay for parts or services to his own project cars, nor did he seem to actually work on any of them himself. If you scan the pages of his articles back when he was editor, I think the only times I read where he did his own work was the time he spray painted a set of Fikse wheels with barbeque paint for that urban wasteland look. :rolleyes:

Hunkins is, however, a very good photographer; maybe the best in his field. He should stick to that, and leave the editor thing to those like new GMHTP editor Rick Jensen, who at least seems to have an understanding of the average readership in GMHTP, and (hopefully) will begin a new era of hands-on EFI tech the average Jack can do to his/her own IROC-Z or GTA.

Some articles in GMHTP are actually quite well done. The recent story on the Stealth Ram install a few issues back for example, and track testing compared to a fully modded TPI system, was very informative and interesting.

I will give credit to Primedia for continuing to offer GMHTP to the masses. The magazine does not have an over abundance of ad revenues and exists from issue to issue, due to the niche market of GM EFI vehicles. It's basically the only ongoing magazine that covers our cars in any detail, so in that regard, I'm happy to purchase each issue to support the magazine. I'm just glad Hunkins went to Popular Hotrodding (a magazine I don't buy anyhow) and Jensen is now at the helm. It will be interesting to see how he fares over the next year or so.

:cool:

Dirt Reynolds,

Well said. Yes some articles are good but this last one they posted on the web site really blew my mind ... it shows me they don't know what they are doing. How are they suppose to get loyal readers when they have junk like that ........ Yes i found that article about the Stealth ram pretty good but it just seems to me that they should be more in touch to what going on … I live in NJ where the magazine is based and I know the places they work on thier cars and these are rinky-ding shops that are doing the work. All they have to do is hit the local street or track seen and they will see a ton fast well build cars lurking around this tri-state area in the mid night hours looking for a race. And these are no 14 second $10,000 cars . Every time somebody mentions gm high tech or slp (which is also based in NJ… ) you will get a smack on the back of the end or they will just walk away because they know you stuff is slow :D ... sorry but you don't see any of the GM high /slp cars cars at the local tracks around here becasue they know they will be laugh at .... by the locals ....... i mean you got car like my friend Claudes car (383 15 psi etc check out the web site) http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/mootoota and he drive this car 120 miles a day back and forth to work ...... also i drive my car about the same ..... so our cars are no trailer queens (the only time his or my car on a trailer is when is is broken :D )

so i would like to see these car do some articles on real street driven home built cars like ours and see how they complare against those dopes :Owned:

I'm sorry to hear that you are so unhappy with our project car. Editor Jensen and I tried to go the low-buck route because GMHTP had been criticised in the past for going ultra high-buck. Yes we could have spent our budget differently, but the tech articles are to inform the readers of what's available as much as they are to make progress with the project. Since the LS1 came out, the aftermarket pretty much dropped the TPI cars like a bad habit, and the 305 has bigger problems of its own, but we've tried to make the best of a bad situation. It may look as though we are sucking up to our advertisers, and i suppose you could say we are to some extent, but the fact is that our advertisers (the few we have) are the only ones making parts for our niche market. And no matter what the outcome of the test, we always bring the reader the honest answer.

A used fourth gen would have been a good start, but the initial outlay for the car would have been well over the $3000 that we paid for our third gen, and the $10,000 budget was not a lump sum that we could play with, but it was thought of as a total that we would be willing to spend over a period of time. I think most third gen owners are like myself, in that we don't have the financial ability to go drop $3000 here and $4000 there. If i did, i probably wouldn't be driving a third gen. Also, portions of the budget were also spent on non-dragstrip components that we wanted for the car, but they usually performed in some other aspect whether it was appearance or handling.

If you've been following the project, then you know it has run a best of 14.22, and while that is not overly exceptional (My '90 L98 car went 14.02 with a fuel regulator and a muffler), it is much beter than the 14.90 we started witth and that's respectable progress. We've always thought this was a real world type of project and that's why we've kept on pursuing simple bolt-ons in order to make more power. The car is driven 108 miles each day, five days a week, rain, sleet snow whatever. Look for it cruising Jersey's pothole-infested section of Rt. 80 each day.

Yes we could have thrown the jug at it the first or second time out, but number one, it's my daily driver. Number two and three, it's not exactly a wise thing to do on a 164,000-mile engine with cast pistons. I'm sure had we sprayed the car and run the number only to blow it up in the next issue and have to rebuild it, that someone would have had a fit over that. People want to see how far you can take the stock engine first, so we've been trying bolt-on after bolt-on before we hit the heavy stuff. We may have only got five horsepower here or seven there, but we are making more (Up to 237 from the 190 we started with) and we've provided the reader with information to base their decision on. We still have a good chunk of the budget left and we're finally getting to the point where we are looking at nitrous, heads and camshafts.

If you really wanted to spend the money frugally, you'd do what the majority of thirdgenners do. Rip off the TPI, throw on a carb and a big shot plate and spray it until you need a Turbo 350 and a 9-inch.The only problem with that is that there isn't anything really "High Tech" about retrofitting a carburetor to a fuel injected engine. We do frequent the tracks and shows quite often and that's what we normally find. That or TBI cars that are bracket racing because they can hit that 17.01 et every time. Fast and clean fuel-injected third gen cars are rare, otherwise you'd see more featured in the magazine.

I must say this is the first negative thing we've heard about the project. As far as project cars go, this one's been pretty well-received and we have over 50 emails of positive feedback, which is far more than most vehicles ever get. I solicited opinions and thoughts on the project in the last story and all have been positive towards the project.

Steve Baur
Associate Editor
GMHTP
steve.baur@primedia.com

Steve,

I understand the finical obligations of your sponsors, which reflect the articles you publish But, You got to be kidding with the stuff you are bolting on to your 164,000-mile car. You and I know that those slp runners are not worth the money they charge for the power gain they provide (this is a stock motor we are talking about) the restriction in the intake manifold not so much the runners … (to tell you the truth I would have spent the money on a intake base and then hogged out the plenum)
I bet most people who are giving you thumbs up are just happy to see a tpi 305 being worked on.
A few years ago I went through a very similar process with a third gen 305 (the only difference was it was a 5 speed) I too did the same approach bolting on anything that promised more power but in the end it really just took some planning and some good pieces to make the 305 run while still staying emissions friendly. I was also a sucker to buy the slp runners (which by the way did not do much and it was not worth the 399 price tag) ok enough with the intake. This is just one example where I feel you miss lead the readers because instead of messing around with slp intake and the adjustable fuel pressure regulator which 9 time out of 10 is not necessary with a proper tune and good injectors… if you were truly looking for the low budget approach with out breaking the car and which any good performance enthusiast knows with the 305 auto tpi is that the poor performance is the weenie cam …which really limits the amount of power they made … this in my opinion should have been the concern for the best bank for the buck. (Remember we are talking about a little 305 which needs to breath to make power it does not matter how big the intake is when it can not flow air through the restricted heads and small cam.)

I think the only reason the tpi market has fallen by the waste side is miss informed info like that article because if a person were to do exactly what you are saying they would be disappointed with the performance in the real would when they get their butt kick by a Honda civic … and at that point they would get rid of the car for a lt1 or ls1 or just jump to the import market. This is where I don’t agree with you and the articles that this magazine publishes. Then you wonder why the guy with the tpi cars are falling by the waste side. I see plenty of third gen in the NJ area who are pretty quick (MID 13’s while still running the stock runners) their power is made in the heads, cam and tuning….. I really don’t want to hear you whine about how you drive your car in NJ because I also do the same (I drive down route 1) both my 3rd and 4gen are out all year around (Sadly I had to sell the third gen to get the forth gen) .
If you are serious in publishing a good low buck article I would be willing to give you a list of tricks I used (cam specs to make those long runners useful) then publish my results I bet I could knock a full second off your 165,000 mile car while still able to meet NJ emissions with out breaking the bank… basically I am calling you guys out to prove me wrong that there is some good left in your magazine and that a car like this can be made up to be cheap affordable and still be able to run with the big boys (lt1 ls1 etc)

First off, the project car has a manual transmission. Secondly, we don't mislead readers. We test the parts in tech articles to see if they work. We publish the results and leave it up to the consumer to decide whether the performance per dollar is what they are looking for. It wouldn't be right for us to say that X amount is the performance per dollar ratio everyone should go by. Not everyone could afford to abide by it, so what are those people supposed to do?

If a reader's mechanical knowledge only extends to bolting on a set of runners, then that 5 or 10 horsepower that he will gain by using them may be worth the money to him. Bolting on runners may be quite an accomplishment for that reader and they may feel great after installing the item. In the article, we went on to say that we didn't expect much improvement on a 305 engine due to its size, but we wanted to see what, if anything at all, they were worth. That's not misleading, that's informing.

Adjustable fuel pressure regulators have been worth up to 20 horsepower as proven on a dynamometer.

I wasn't "whining" about driving my car, just stating that it is a "real world" project car. If you think your list of mods is magazine worthy, contact Rick Jensen with the story idea, maybe he'll take you up on it.

Bring these third gens you speak of to SLP Day this weekend, we'll be looking for feature material.

I had about $3K into my car and ran a 14.1@99mph with a 2.3 60' time.
It was an 86 Trans Am LG4 carbed 5 speed which I converted to an Edelbrock Carb/intake setup, then I converted to a SD TPI setup with a cam, headers, exhaust, intake, tb, msd, and some suspension mods.
Now it's got an LT1.

Sorry to get off topic guys, but kraftopia02: "3.73 posi rear gears, PERHAPS (but unlikely) 4.10s

~$500"

Have you ever drove a TPI car with deep gears??? 3.42 is the limit. I know, I am driving a 305 TPI with a 3.73 posi axle I set up with some spare used parts. The gears are too deep. I have also helped swapped a 3.42 axle in a buddies car, they complimented the engines powerband quite nicely. 4.10's would be really pathetic, quit passing off bad info, maybe you should read GMHTP more often.

TurboSteve, in your next segment you should inform people about rear gear selection, so many people want to overdo it with TPI cars.

On budget built fast fuel injected 3rd gens, my buddy has a '91 RS with a 350 TBI (yes throttle body) that runs a traction limited 14.0 (running of F41 16" rims with street tires). He took a 350 TBI engine from a Chevy truck (free), reringed it ($150), he home ported a set of L98 GTA heads for it, Comp XE276HR cam($240), used Edelbrock TBI intake($100), used Holley TBI ($100), used Edelbrock headers with homemade dump ($200). Freshened TH700R4 with higher stall ($250) bigger boost valeves, Corvette servo, etc. and 3.42.1 posi disc axle out of a 305 TPI T5 Formula. The hole set up cost him maybe $1,500 besides the cost of the car.

Martin

Sounds like you guys need to visit ThirdGen.Org more!! They woulda told you to go a different way with modding that car from the start.

TurboSteve,
As much as I usually enjoy your mag too, I hold mags like yours partially responsible for the disapearing TPI market. Lets face it nobody wants to spend 10 Grand and get beat by a Regal GS.
My cousin owned an '86 IROC TPI back in 1987 and it ran very-low 15's and an ocassional high 14 with FREE mods, NO bolt-ons..
If you want to test products and publish info, I'M ALL FOR IT! But you do send a message sometimes that "not even 10 grand can get a 5.0L TPI lower than the 14's...
Your mag should teach the "mechanically challenged" how to..mod a MAF sensor, port a plenum behind the blades, size injectors, tune an EFI car to its best, then get the bolt ons going. There is ALWAYS room for improvement, and MANY great products out there to help! We'll still need them! Just, to get into, say the low 13's or high 12's though...:D
Keep up the good work, Love the TR coverage and maybe you could pump up a couple more L98's and help us out a little.:bow:

Steve, dont let these detractors get you down. There's always a few bad apples in the crowd.
You guys really need to lighten up. GMHTP is doing a feature on OUR thirdgen f-bodies. So what if its not exactly like your car. Chevy High Performance did one last year on an 87 305 carb'd car. I didnt whine or complain that they were using an old and outdated carb setup instead of a "modern" fuel injected 350 engine. I was happy they chose a thirdgen to do their next story on. The same with this story in GMHTP. They had the mega-buck (which wasnt supposed to be) article Johnny H's 350 TPI Formula, and now a piece on a 305 5-speed car. Sure, low 14's arent the greatest ET's anymore, but look at what they've accomplished so far. Almost 3/4 of a second is great. I even sent Steve a few suggestions on what he can try next to get his car into the 13's.
Lighten up guys, and enjoy the good press our thirdgens are getting from GMHTP. Would you rather they ignore us altogether and concentrate on nothing but 11 second LS1's?

Come on Kevin, we just want a more realistic fair representaion, that's all. If these articles are aimed at 3rd Gen owners, then do what they, or we would do, plain and simple....you'll still sell parts and maybe a lot more mags....

TurboSteve :

86 camaro Iroc

350 TPI (not factory engine)

auto tranny

got another 10k? want a 350 TPI camaro for your next project? would be willing to lend mine :D

Originally posted by Kevin91Z
Steve, dont let these detractors get you down. There's always a few bad apples in the crowd.
You guys really need to lighten up. GMHTP is doing a feature on OUR thirdgen f-bodies. So what if its not exactly like your car. Chevy High Performance did one last year on an 87 305 carb'd car. I didnt whine or complain that they were using an old and outdated carb setup instead of a "modern" fuel injected 350 engine. I was happy they chose a thirdgen to do their next story on. The same with this story in GMHTP. They had the mega-buck (which wasnt supposed to be) article Johnny H's 350 TPI Formula, and now a piece on a 305 5-speed car. Sure, low 14's arent the greatest ET's anymore, but look at what they've accomplished so far. Almost 3/4 of a second is great. I even sent Steve a few suggestions on what he can try next to get his car into the 13's.
Lighten up guys, and enjoy the good press our thirdgens are getting from GMHTP. Would you rather they ignore us altogether and concentrate on nothing but 11 second LS1's?

Kevin,

I can not remember seeing a post of yours that I disagread with but come on!!! Kissing ass may help you get in good standing with the magazine but at this rate nobody on a third gen message board will care in a couple months.

To say that we should be happy with seeing one of our cars in GMHTP is rediculous. Our cars as the third generation took the same amount of GM production time as the LT1 and LS1 combined, not to even compare the build numbers!!!

The simple fact of the matter is that GMHTP showed us EXACTLY what not to do two times in a row with a third gen f-body. First they blew their unbelievably unlimited and ludicraus budget on Magnum TPI, only to rip off the same times a heads and cam lt1 and even worse, a simply cammed LS1 would run. We are talking an accel DFI Gen 7 powered 396 with fully CNC'D AFR heads that had to absolutely beg to get in to eleven seconds' door.

Your artical may have had some merit 10 years ago when your only option was to spend 4000 bucks to pick up under a second in the quarter, but if you want to keep us as readers and as customers, you had better get in touch with the real world and start building some serious performing budget cars. Even CHP is starting to cover your aces on third gen performance.

Please turn it around!!!!!!! :shame:

One thing about doing a supposed Budget build up
is that you want to spend the least amount of
money to FASTer and still maintain reliability.
That is something I feel the magazine did not accomplish (305
or no 305). Dont get me wrong, I like the Mag but did not
care for this article or articles like this. When most folks
look at my car or site (see sig), they think I have a lot
of money in the car, and they are right (to a point).
Eventhough I may have more money than the average
bolt on Lt1, I still saved a lot of money on my budget build up.
I did that by researching parts, asking questions and most
importantly, searching the forsale section of Forums like this one.
My motor, eventhough it was New, cost me just a little over 2 grand but would cost most folks closer to 5Gs when going to places like Nuteck Motors (I got the motor on the forsale section of this Forum). My supercharger and intercooler ran upto a
2500.00 price tag but new would be closer to 3500.00 thats because I was able to purchase the Supercharger new and purchase the intercooler used (I got the intercooler on the foresale section). My Long Tube headers, custom Y-pipe with dual random cats cost me 400 bucks used but new it would have cost ~$1200.00 (I got it on the forsale section of Z28.com...Are you noticing a pattern yet?) My Scanmaster was another item I was able to get used from the forsale section just to name a Few. I also got my car Street Tuned by Bryan at PCMforles for
only 150.00. My friend Maldo (who started this post) helped me with the install of the 383 and most of the stuff we did ourselves to save more money. I also made ~$650.00 from all the parts I sold from the old motor to reduce my cost. What I am trying to say is that if you are gonna do a budget buildup....Then Do a Budget Build up! There are plenty of folks on the board to get parts from cheap and still make Good Power and do it reliably. Going this route would have been more cost effective and probably would have made more power, not to mention you would have had your readers more interested (IMHO) and would also not look like you are sucking up to your advertisers.


By the way, eventhough my car is not a 3rd Gen 305, I drive my car in NJ too. I average 600 Miles WEEKLY, I will drive my car Rain or Shine or if there is less than 2 inches of snow on the ground. I do enjoy your magazine but articles like this one does loose my interest with a quickness!

Thx,
Claude

i think the basic fact that they dropped 7 grand into a motor and only ran 14's is horribly depressing.....especially considering you could buy a 400 hp motor with that kind of money....

i repeat theres still 3 grand left in budget, if he does it right he can pull through with that case of beer. and make the car fast too.

3 grand went to the purchasing of the car but i bet we could find somewhere in the 7 GRAND they dropped into the motor for a case of beer or two....

Getting a little hot in here as i expected. I forgot to mention that the $167 exhaust from Dynomax was the real deal. No special prices, just a mild steel performance exhaust that produced good results.

If i dropped 7K into a motor and only ran 14's, i'd be horribly depressed too. So far we've only spent $1,543.39 (Check the budget) on the engine and have knocked 7 tenths off our elapsed times. Nitrous oxide would have cost just a third of that and shaved off a second of e.t., but i don't think the engine would have survived a season of merciless beatings at the track and more dyno runs than i care to recall.

Chances are we could have put together a cheap 350, reconditioned the stock heads and stuffed a cam in it for the money we have already spent, but we really wanted to see exactly what was possible with a naturally aspirated 305 and many readers agreed and applauded the fact that we didn't just run for the cubic inches. That's not to say it's not a good idea, just one we didn't want to pursue at the time.

There's certainly a good argument for buying used parts and doing a story on that. It sounds actually like a good way to write a car feature, or a shootout like the Grassroots $2K deal. The only problem i see is that everyone may not be able to negotiate the same deals. Someone will eventually get on the internet and call foul saying there's no way someone could score G.I. Joe with the kung fu grip for that kind of coin.

I think we mentioned the fact that we had 13-second power (MPH), but weren't willing to sacrifice the rear axle in order to get the 1.8-1.9-second 60-foot time needed to obtain it. I promise the car will run better than 14.22 without any investment in the engine or rear. Plus the project isn't over yet. I still have a couple of grand to mess with. I think only a third of the total budget is actualy going towards the motor. We had no intention of spending all 10K on an engine just to make an old high-mileage third gen run fast. I've got a thing for corners too. Big FIA WRC and Formula One fan. Once i have an engine that i don't have to worry about grenading on the backstretch at the Glen, maybe we'll get some road course coverage. That's one place where F-bodies have always excelled over Mustangs.

On another note, i don't think GMHTP in particular could be blamed for the downfall of the TPI aftermarket. The TPI was long gone and replaced by a much more powerful engine by the time the magazine actually came to print. The Mustang aftermarket explosion had more to do with the average Joe going fast and not the magazines. Blame GM for pricing their cars a few thousand more than an LX Mustang too.

When we started this project, we did solicit advice/ideas from thirdgen.org and such places and have done about half of what they asked. A few stories we just couldn't do, had covered in previous issues or had a freelancer do on their own car, but we still plan to check a few more off the list. If we were monthly this would be more evident, but having to wait every other month to do or see something takes twice as long.

TurboSteve:)

i like that answer....wasnt sure about the 7k comment but the link to the aritcle wasnt working and i couldnt easily find it so i just commented and waited. From the sounds of it you guys didnt do too badly although with the obvious restriction being the tpi system i dont see why youd bother modding that. For the same money you spent as pointed out a couple times you probably could have gotten a stealth ram, cam, and exhaust. I think people just get all wrapped up in their ego's and when they go hey i could have done that a bit better they jump all over you. I think the important thing for people to remember is to take everything with a grain of salt because maybe it could have been done differently, but based on what they did you do get a good reflection of what those products they put on will achieve. Even if youre not happy with the results then you know to stay away from doing it the way they did. Its all good information so remember to take it for what its worth and when it comes right down to building our own cars were all going to do something a little different so it doesnt really matter anyways.

I like the "Touring Car" approach, it's generally where I'm eventially headed.:D
"a much more powerful engine",now... Steve:rolleyes:
(lets not go there again.....)
Give that 'lil 305 HE!!....
BTW My 90 Iroc has over 180K and other than replacing the valve seals, runs great w/no noises. I'm starting to think it's indestructible...
BTW, I'm not singling out GMHTP, it just seems like that the TPI's NEVER got the MAG coverage afforded the LT1's and LS1's. By the time good EFI Mags came out they skipped us.....And when I see coverage of one spending Thousands of dollars on one and still lagging behind a stock LT1, I get a little aggitated.....
Do you spend a lot of time or money on V6 or other low powered 4th Gens??
The first mod I would've done is a GM crate motor, basic and stripped down cheap.(under 2K)
But for a Laid off, father of 3, I must pursue the Most-Bang-For-very-few-Bucks path.
My current set up goes like this:
Homade Ram Air from the bottoms of the cut-out air boxes to the fog light location(8"furnace duct elbows). K&N filters, relocated IAT in the filter box lid, TPIS T/B Air Foil, ported plenum inlet, T/B coolant bypassed(summer,blades stick in winter),stock runners, stock bottom end ,ported#083 heads, ported base intake(gasket matched), new distributor w/Accel Cap, rotor and Module, Adjustable Fuel Pressure REG,255lhp fuel pump, Flowtech "Shorty"headers, Custom true-dual exhaust(side-by-side pipes following factory path split after the axle.), SLP2500 stall converter, B&M shift kit, 3.73 gears, Zexel Torsen posi, KYB-GR2 Shocks and struts,Lakewood LCA's and Panhard rod, Urethane bushings, Goodyear GSC tires.

Originally posted by TurboSteve

There's certainly a good argument for buying used parts and doing a story on that. It sounds actually like a good way to write a car feature, or a shootout like the Grassroots $2K deal. The only problem i see is that everyone may not be able to negotiate the same deals. Someone will eventually get on the internet and call foul saying there's no way someone could score G.I. Joe with the kung fu grip for that kind of coin.
TurboSteve:)

If you guys are serious, please let me know...
I have the names of most people that I bought the parts from (Prominent Board Members, Kevin Green aka 2MCHPSI)
and some reciepts too. And The intercooer, Long Tubes and other things including the members name that I bought it from so I know they can vouch for it.
I also have a Ton of Digitial pictures (that are not on my webpage) from the actual rebuild and how we (mostly Maldo) pulled the motor from the bottom.
The only problem is that I dont have any track or Dyno times yet but that could be fixed :D Like I said before, I like the magazine but some articles like the one mentioned above, I could care less for...just being honest.

Thx,
Claude

I don't think he's questioning the deals you got Claude, he's merely pointing out the fact that not everyone will be able to score the same deal on the same part if they're buying through private parties.....unless those guys you mentioned all have dozens of the same parts sitting around that they're willing to sell for the same deal you got.

Imagine if a guy like Nine Ball wrote a story called, "Buy an LS1 for less than $100!" and then went on to write about the killer deal he got on a car, which he parted out until the engine had all but paid for itself. I've already offered to pay him twice what he paid for his LS1 if he could get one for me :D

Well I must admit there is one thing that REALY sticks out from this post

3rd gen guys whine as much as 4th gen LT1 owners do;)

I have owned all gens and I miss my 88 IROC 5.0. Then again you do not see me whining about how bad the LS1 kicks my ass either.

Step up and play...I did!

Originally posted by doug791
i like that answer....wasnt sure about the 7k comment but the link to the aritcle wasnt working and i couldnt easily find it so i just commented and waited. From the sounds of it you guys didnt do too badly although with the obvious restriction being the tpi system i dont see why youd bother modding that. For the same money you spent as pointed out a couple times you probably could have gotten a stealth ram, cam, and exhaust. I think people just get all wrapped up in their ego's and when they go hey i could have done that a bit better they jump all over you. I think the important thing for people to remember is to take everything with a grain of salt because maybe it could have been done differently, but based on what they did you do get a good reflection of what those products they put on will achieve. Even if youre not happy with the results then you know to stay away from doing it the way they did. Its all good information so remember to take it for what its worth and when it comes right down to building our own cars were all going to do something a little different so it doesnt really matter anyways.


Hi sorry here is the link to the article ..

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0311htp_frugal/

wow i thought that was a different article (i read a slightly similar one before) but looking through that now i dont see why people have a problem with that....The only questionable part was the runners but as far as basic bolt ons thats what you would tell anyone to do.....pulleys, cold air, filter, exhaust....then its mainly suspension, tires and cost of the car....what in there do you have a problem with exactly? And the fact that some of that stuff cost as much as it did oh well thats how much things cost....building cars is not cheap thats why you have to pay 100 grand to get a car the runs low 12's from the factory.

Originally posted by Blownyellow
Kevin,

I can not remember seeing a post of yours that I disagread with but come on!!! Kissing ass may help you get in good standing with the magazine but at this rate nobody on a third gen message board will care in a couple months.

To say that we should be happy with seeing one of our cars in GMHTP is rediculous. Our cars as the third generation took the same amount of GM production time as the LT1 and LS1 combined, not to even compare the build numbers!!!



I wasnt kissing ass, just making a point. What would you have done differently? As the post above this one says, they added all the usual bolt-on mods, and that's the ET they've accomplished. I have spent a bunch of money on three different setups to run the time in my sig, so I'm not innocent of over-spending either. Not everyone can afford the time or money to rip out the 305 and drop in a 350. And dont even bother with a "cheap 350" crate engine. It'll be a non-roller block with a 2-piece seal that isnt compatible with the setup you have now. Spend the extra coin and get a good later model roller block. Its very much worth it.

Steve, again I say you do not have to worry about your 9-bolt 3.45 rear end at this power level. Slap on those drag radials and go have fun. Its the T5 you have to worry about. Mine didnt break until I used ET Streets and got my 60 foot times in the 1.8x range.

shhhhhhhhit dude for 7 grand you could build a 10 second beast. cam, heads,manifold, headers, exhaust total rebuild on your 305 and then throw a turbo on theier will a shot of nos you have a 10 second car but it wont last past 5,000 miles i actually started following him i bought the pulleys and exhaust and didnt really get far im a second and 3 10ths behind him do headers make that much power or could he be bluffing

"shhhhhhhhit dude for 7 grand you could build a 10 second beast. cam, heads,manifold, headers, exhaust total rebuild on your 305 and then throw a turbo on theier will a shot of nos you have a 10 second car but it wont last past 5,000 miles"

Wow Lordmetal, that would be a real good magazine story. I think this TurboSteve should just give over the reigns of the magazine to you. What was he thinking???

Martin

was that meant to be sarcastic.

lol i think so.....the article is okay, little bit of wasted money but overall they followed the basic bolt ons.....

How about this:

3 Gs for the car
plus
3,909.95 for a GMPP 383 Crate
plus
~$400 for a decent th350 tranny
plus
~$700 for a CC306, some 1.6 rockers and springs or a LT4 hot cam kit, gaskets and machine work
plus
$500 for a 150 shot N20 system
plus
$900 for some halfway decent rims and tires
plus
$500 for an exhaust system, uncoated headers/y pipe and catback

10 Gs and easy 11's with some traction and a prayer or two.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

I'd like to see them be "fun" for once with a Thirdgen project...

For that amount of money (7-10K), they could have bought a used 305, swap a car/intake, headers on it and spend a grand for a good nitrous kit and go mid 12's in a safe manner roughly and then crank it up and see what it'll do while under a little heat:D Maybe 11's? :) But no...Spend insane cash on a 305 or 396 buildup and be dissapointed with the results.

Can someone PM me if they evere got that 396 running good with the SuperRam, etc,etc...I know the Yellow Thunderchicken ran 11.90's with it's 396 and 6 speed but last I seen the 396 Thirdgen was in the 12's and I mean BARELY...For a while also it was pulling mid 13's(trans problems rings a bell however)..

Yes I do agree .. i am not sure what they are doing over there when you compare them with the rest of the hot rod type of magazines or the real world . What i mean is that they have spend tons of time and money on these project cars and always seem to come up short in overall performance..
I guess what I am trying to say is that these guys don’t offer value per dollar vs. performance most hard working guys are looking for. After reading their articles I always say to myself “ they spent how much for those results!!!” Just wish they would open their eye’s and put together something without the sponsor add popping junk they always seem to do.. Don’t get me wrong I understand that they need to make money from this sponsors but enough is enough with all of the junk you are trying to push that does not make the hp these manufactures claim.

*smashes head on desk* okay remember theyve only used like half of their budget and that half includes the price of the car....i have a funny feeling none of you even took the time to read the article...they did pulleys, exhaust, and a CAI, the rest of the money was all in suspension mods, and new wheels and tires. What of those things would you object to? Id say those are the first mods any person should be doing. The only really questionable thing they did was the intake runners. So all of you get off your high horse and figure out wtf youre talking about before you post. Everyone is talking a lot but youre not saying anything. If you object to the mods they did say which ones and why. Saying "i could have done better" means horse **** what could you have done better? And dont say an engine swap because for many of us that is a larger undertaking then we could deal with. The point of this article was to make the car/engine they do have better.

Originally posted by doug791
*smashes head on desk* okay remember theyve only used like half of their budget and that half includes the price of the car....i have a funny feeling none of you even took the time to read the article...they did pulleys, exhaust, and a CAI, the rest of the money was all in suspension mods, and new wheels and tires. What of those things would you object to? Id say those are the first mods any person should be doing. The only really questionable thing they did was the intake runners. So all of you get off your high horse and figure out wtf youre talking about before you post. Everyone is talking a lot but youre not saying anything. If you object to the mods they did say which ones and why. Saying "i could have done better" means horse **** what could you have done better? And dont say an engine swap because for many of us that is a larger undertaking then we could deal with. The point of this article was to make the car/engine they do have better.




Hey Jerky boy yes I did read the article my problem is that they wasted almost 700 bucks for stupid stuff

399.95 SLP runners runner (they are not worth the price tag)
129.99 For jet pulleys (worthless all this does is make the car heat up and not charge properly, Try using the a/c head lights and run a stereo system you will be singing a different tune when the battery is dead)
89.99 Adjustable fuel regulator (you don’t need to bump up fuel if you have a good tune (that’s a Band-Aid approach for tuning.

But they have no problem spending 1799.99 for the firehawk wheels and tires (to tell you the truth there are allot more tire and rim selection out these days which would make the car look better and be cheaper at the same time but, we all know they got those rims and tires for free or allot less then what they say to plug the SLP Name). (Look at tire rack .com and you will see for yourself )
They should have bought just tires … to save on the budget so that a large chunk on the money can go into the mechanical stuff as need for this high mileage car. I would have not said anything about the rims and tires if the car was in better mechanical shape but to waste money those expensive rims is a waste to me when that money can be put to better use.

A simple cam swap would have netted about 30 hp without breaking a sweat for about a fraction of the 700 price tag a describe from above

Maybe you should take a closer look at the article before you run your mouth.

Yes I do agree with you about spending the money first on the suspension first (that’s a no brainier) but you are still missing my point how they miss lead people just to plug manufacture names.

Oh and that whole thing about grinding the intake plenum is worthless on a stock 305 using a stock intake manifold. I bet most of the horsepower they gained was from freeing up the exhaust system (headers and cat back system) and the cold air kit…

Originally posted by Maldo
Hey Jerky boy yes I did read the article my problem is that they wasted almost 700 bucks for stupid stuff

399.95 SLP runners runner (they are not worth the price tag)
129.99 For jet pulleys (worthless all this does is make the car heat up and not charge properly, Try using the a/c head lights and run a stereo system you will be singing a different tune when the battery is dead)
89.99 Adjustable fuel regulator (you don’t need to bump up fuel if you have a good tune (that’s a Band-Aid approach for tuning.

But they have no problem spending 1799.99 for the firehawk wheels and tires (to tell you the truth there are allot more tire and rim selection out these days which would make the car look better and be cheaper at the same time but, we all know they got those rims and tires for free or allot less then what they say to plug the SLP Name). (Look at tire rack .com and you will see for yourself )
They should have bought just tires … to save on the budget so that a large chunk on the money can go into the mechanical stuff as need for this high mileage car. I would have not said anything about the rims and tires if the car was in better mechanical shape but to waste money those expensive rims is a waste to me when that money can be put to better use.

A simple cam swap would have netted about 30 hp without breaking a sweat for about a fraction of the 700 price tag a describe from above

Maybe you should take a closer look at the article before you run your mouth.

Yes I do agree with you about spending the money first on the suspension first (that’s a no brainier) but you are still missing my point how they miss lead people just to plug manufacture names.

Oh and that whole thing about grinding the intake plenum is worthless on a stock 305 using a stock intake manifold. I bet most of the horsepower they gained was from freeing up the exhaust system (headers and cat back system) and the cold air kit…

I do agree with you on the SLP runners,,, which is definite over kill on a stock 305 TPI (heads and cam).

However, I'm betting based on your statements regarding the 30hp cam swap, comments on grinding on the plenum, the AFPR, and how much gain you think there is in the exhaust system for a stock 305 TPI,,, that you've never actually modified or tuned on one - a 305TPI that is,,,, or 350 TPI car. If I'm wrong,, please share with everyone the cam that you believe will make 30 rwhp in a 305 TPI without grinding on the plenum or adding an AFPR.

I do take issue with you saying GMHTP is misleading the readers. This article that you seem to have trouble with should prove they're not misleading anyone. So what if they are "plugging" the part as you say. They're installing the part, dynoing it, and reporting the results. How in hell is that misleading? Now,,,, if they claimed to have made 30 rwhp from a cam swap and didn't report the actually before and after dyno results,,, or even worse,,,, never even swapped the cam,,,, NOW THAT WOULD BE MISLEADING,,, huh?

I've kinda been checkin' in on this thread for a while. I'm a regular thirdgen.org guy, but this is interesting, so I'm gonna jump in. ...and I have read the article.

First off, I love GMHTP.

Secondly, I think that both sides of this are correct, and not listening to the other.

To the TPI faithful (like myself) who are complaining about this article in GMHTP: As someone already stated, alot of the money has not been spent, and for that matter, most has not even been spent on the engine. I'm hoping that there are good things to come.

To GMHTP: I think the main problem is not a piece by piece argument over using this or that, but more of the overall picture being drawn. I can say that as a TPI guy who is still learning, I cringe when I read this article. The best example of this is the runners. Now lets forget the price. Let's say that they were $125, NO, they were FREE. YOU said they were worth up to 20 HP. Again, let's not fuss over numbers, we'll all assume that you gained 20 HP on the dyno. ( I thinkyou actually did if I remember correctly). You can ask ANYONE making any kind of power with a TPI that runners are a bad initail investment. Here's where this debate is getting stuck. GMHTP is defending that the the goal was to see what bolt on HP was available. That's a noble effort, and I applaud that effort, and I think you succeded. Problem is that it should NOT be one of the first upgrades when looking for HP on a 305. The facts/numbers don't tell the whole story. All of us who know TPI's know exactly how your/our mill responds to the parts you put on. I actually am interested to see some of them, but I'll tell ya this. Any kid who's looking to run with all the imports, who drops the money for runners and goes looking to race, AIN'T COMIN' BACK TO SLP!!! And to TPI's for that matter. That's the injustice, that's the issue, and that's what your story leads to. Heck, WE all know what's gonna happen, but it's the newbies that need our guidance. Telling them that runners add 20 HP is the truth, but it's not the best advice. It's like a lie of omission, only more like misleading by omission of a better way to start.

Did that make sence?
I'd be happy with a paragraph ending in:

"We were happy with our SLP runners, but remember that the engine is more than the sum of all of its parts, and many parts including the SLP runners really start to come into there own when working with other high flow components such as an aftermarket camshaft or even aftermarket heads. However, 20 RWHP is nothing to scoff at for starters, and with some future modifications, 13's shouldn't be too far off. "

I think the article did mention the future value of the hi-flow runners early on, but a newbie is only coming out of that article with ONE THING....20RWHP. He needs to be thinking, "first step", not "SPEED RACER".:thumb:

BTW, I realize there is more to this than just the runners, but I was using them as an example.

Well, I just read it again, and I agree about them "jumpin the gun" on stuff like the AFPR, Runners etc. That's mostly my point, UNTIL you squeeze every last Pony out of the "stock-Free-Modded" set up, don't go "bigger is better"....You end up spending BIG $$$ and get disapointing results. And from what GMHTP has given us in the past, I expected more.....

And it was the COMBO of the Runners & Pulleys that netted the 20HP, everyone KNOWS you can't get those numbers on a stock car with just runners. Pulleys DO add HP. I found out when my drive belt shredded from a locked up tensioner. I even raced a tricked out truck on the way home, and my car was a BEAST in 2nd gear!!!The seat of the pants-O-meter went off the scale!!!

I guess I would've done something like this:
1)Set the TPS to get .54v @ idle AND 4.50v at WOT, this involves ovaling the mounting screw holes and playing with the ecentric positioning of it.
2)Set the minimum air bleed
3)Do a "quality Tune Up, "Spiral Core wires, brass inserted cap&rotor, More than $2 plugs, set timing up 4*-6*,K&N or Equiv air filter, FULL Synthetic oil w/GOOD filter, flushed and filled coolant with distilled water and 60/40antifreeze.
4)Removed the MAF screens(not keen on porting it)
5)ported the Plenum's front opening
6)relocated the IAT sensor
7)T/B coolant bypass
8)installed at least a 180* T-Stat
9)good cat-back with at least 2.5" tubing and mandrel bends.
10)get a soft rubber compounded set of tires on the rear, like a 35K mile tire vs a 70K mile tire...play with pressures.
11)removed at least the sway bar end links(maybe just at track, even)
12) Removed the Spare Tire & junk for weight reduction.
Well, something like this anyways, maybe freshed the clutch in their case...
Then went to the "Market"...still conservitively, like a chip, module, coil, low temp fan switch, etc........

i only read the first few post, but...

1991 Trans Am 305 5-speed, 110,000 miles, bone stock, $4200, almost pristine shape;)

Used headers: $100
Used cat-back: $200
BFG Drag Radials w/spare rims: $300

Went 14.45@95.25 w/2.1 60'

Somebody give me the other $5200 I havent spent yet and see how fast I can make a 305 go:D

Well, if you didn't read the whole post...

...they haven't spent all the money yet, and a lot of it went to rims and tires.

I'm not against the money issue, and as a fellow TPI guy, I am a little interested in what they can do, but I think the problem that some of have is that the impression a newbie may get is that this is the way someone should build up a 305 TPI. NO, they didn't actually say this is the what should be done, but that's the impression I think a lot of us got.

I did.:p

Combination is everything on our cars, I mean you can throw on a good piece of hardware, but w/o its supporting pieces or mods you've wasted your money. Certain conditions must be met to before you see gains of advertised proportions.
Example; an Air Foil, by itself its worthless to a stock motor...maybe 5 or 6hp..maybe. But say it's an addition to heads, cam and headers, now it's worth over 15+HP!
To test products by themselves, isn't fair to the car or Manufacturer, unless you compare say...cfm's on a bench.
It's not just GMHTP, it's all over the industry...
I'd say GMHTP does it the least maybe, but we have even bigger hopes in them being an EFI industry leader by listening to "us" as a thinktank. And taking our knowledge combined with what the aftermarket is doing to push the envelope in performance!
That's why some of us are especially hard on them....;)

I "super-tuned" (mainly free mods and a free not so free - mainly labor) to a number of 350 TPIs and few 305TPIs. These cars were basically new some with less than 3,000 miles on them. So the engines, transmissions, electronics, and sensors were all original, new, and in good operating condition. While there were variances of .3 - .4 seconds when they arrived in totally stock condition, I was able to get the ones with the exact same mods and gears to run almost identical times.

One good friend bought a 305 TPI - 5speed with 3.42 gears. I did no more than add a 160 degree thermostat, TPS and timing adjustments, remove the splash guards in the air box (not gutting it or running a ram air set up), and add K&N filters. NOTHING MORE. Before these changes the car ran a low 15.0 on the Vericom on the street tires with him driving it. After the changes the best he could do was 14.7s. I jumped in the car and on my first time driving it ran a low 14.3. I told him how I was driving it,, and he ran a high 14.2s on street tires on his first pass. That was Friday night and when we took it to the track Saturday night, it ran two high 13.9s and a number of 14.0s on 26x8.5 slicks before the clutch left him. Now,,, the dude spent about $55 in parts and borrowed a set of slicks mounted on steel rims to get himself a couple 13 second time slips (the replacement clutch was covered under warrenty,,,, ONCE - lol)

The point being two fold - 1) you can get a wide variance in ets just in how hard you're willing to push the 5-speeds. 2) I doubt these time could be easily duplicated on a 12 year old car. When working on factory fresh or freshly built engines, you can consistently duplicate results. Throw in the wear and tear of 12 plus years and how well a car is maintained,, or not maintained (regardless of the miles), then you have no real basis to judge how fast you're able to make YOUR car run compared to how fast someone with equal knowledge and driving skill can make THEIR near identical (or what appears to be near identical) run. Folks that have worked on a large number of vehicles in various stage of deterioration understand this.

Again,,, the addition of the runners at the stage of the game that they added them probably wasn't what I would have personally done. However,,,,,,,, Steve said in the article "While the runners are better suited to the L98 350 engines, I was interested to see what they could offer,," Then the article reports the results of a before and after runner pull,,,, 5 peak HP and 6 peak lb/ft TQ. How is that misleading???? To me it's not a bad thing that they added the runners - if someone reads that and can't come to their own conclusion that the runners were not really worth the money involved (at this stage of the build),,,, then I feel sorry for them.

I just went back and reread a bunch of this post. I can't believe they spent 1700 dollars on a set of rims and tires for a car that costs 3000 dollars. Reminds me of the 1988 K car with 20 inch rims on it. How much did they spend on those rims they put on Magnum TPI? The ROH ZS rims I think is what they are. Those look much better on a 3rd gen than the SLP rims. Or put a set of Telstars on the thing like they put on the grape of wrath. 16x8 all around. I'm all for looking nice, but they could have done a paint job and a set of rims and tires for what they put into those. I just don't see many people putting almost 2 G's worth of rolling stock onto a 3 thousand dollar car. I'll be doing a set of 15's or 16's on my Twin Turbo GTA when/if it's ever finished. Oh well, something to think on. :cool:

BadRocZ, my point exactly. First, he said it has been their goal to keep the project inexpensive while getting good gains($428+for 20hp??). And second, he admitted it was against his better judgement, but put the runners on anyways.
I don't have a problem with them trying stuff, but the overall implications were either, "this car is a turd that don't perform even with good parts, or it's going to take a LOT MORE $$ to get some decent numbers from this thing"...
Hell, I've got the same runners on my L98 as they do on their 305, they didn't re-disign runners for the L98's. So with 50 more cubic inches and much more power, I'm still not convinced of them being that big of a restriction on my car, yet. I'm more concerned with the base intake, but even that when ported only gives up a very few ponies to ones costing $300-$500. Still NOT worth it either to me...
Being a mag like GMHTP and approaching this project like a 3rd Gen newbie didnn't set well with most. Most wanted to see them show people what combinations in what order needed to be done to bring out the beast in these cars. On a budget. So newbies don't spend BIG bucks, get disapointed and frustrated and decide to go buy a Honda...And our piers(sp) don't think 3rd Gens are totally inferior......

I have to be honest, I really like this thread. :)

I still cant believe for the money, they just didnt buy a set of heads, a cam, and carb the sucker to put her into at least the low 12's. lol.

S.

Originally posted by 90rocz

Being a mag like GMHTP and approaching this project like a 3rd Gen newbie didnn't set well with most. Most wanted to see them show people what combinations in what order needed to be done to bring out the beast in these cars. On a budget. I think this is probably the best point of all. I cant fault them for putting on pulleys, fuel regulator, runners and then posting hey well this cost a couple hundred bucks and only got 5 horsepower. The way they did it is a fair honest and while understandable they could have done it much better. They took the newbish approach to our cars and went hey i wonder what will happen when we do this. If they had taken the time to do any real research they would have know hey maybe pulleys arent the most important thing to a third gen 5.0 and the runners arent a good idea either. That way they could have gone okay for this money spent this is one of the best power combos you can get, instead of we tried this and it didnt work. Doing some research and getting the best bang for your buck to point new guys in the right direction. Then the sponsorship issue comes up because they basically slapped whatever tpi parts on the car that were handed to them.....

I guess the point I am trying to make with my thread is that to the avenger Joe who is looking for performance at a value this article or article like this really don’t tell the whole story and I think it gives false hopes or makes the tpi 305/350 look like a lost cause. people may turn away form cars or set ups like this when they read this junk . (I feel like these guys are just throwing parts on to see if things work and not taking the time to really research and do things right way to set a good example of what can be done for the average Joe bolt-ons (are you guys feeling my point and why I had to post about this article?). I have been looking around at the import seen for years and these guys are pulling great numbers out of these little pocket rockets and it just seems like this Magazine is not taking it to the next level.
To me they are bolting on junk that’s been out there forever and tested over and over again and they are just trying to fill sponsor space to drum up business for companies like SLP. (I have seen and been to their place in NJ and they are a bumbling idiot’s in my book repackaging parts from other manufactures and passing it off as there own stuff is not good business practice)
It’s funny how they cry wolf when they say there is no performance market for these cars well articles like this puts the nail into the coffin for a would be buyer who would look to buy a older third gen to hop it up look the other way.
I am sorry 20 hp for 700 bucks is not a good value to the average joe….. I can understand if you are trying to pull every last drop of power to go to the extreme… for a full out race car but, I have seen completely stock 350/305 tpi ‘s pull 12’s with just a simple nos set up (I am not saying that this article should go in that direction but using that statement as an example as a bang for the buck)
When I see articles like this it’s no wonder why look the other way from buying cars like this etc and run to the imports etc …. Or take the tpi system off and replace it with a carb etc . There is allot of potential in a stock tpi system (well at least for up to 400 hp N/A)

i think a lot of you are missing the point with gmhtp and magazine articles in general.

first, i don't think the best way to use them is as a blueprint for what to do. rather, i think they make good thoughtstarters.

i agree that project magnum should have been faster for what it was, but i enjoyed reading it nevertheless and got some good ideas ... both of what i want to do and what i DON'T want to do.

yeah, you can pretty much take any car, drop in a crate motor, bolt on the nitrous and run fast, but where's the process?

life's a journey ... enjoy the ride. for me, half the fun of playing with my car is making small changes and measuring their effect.

you think making tpi fast is a bitch, try tbi! after months of searching, the best info i've found from a magazine is a project hot rod did .... in 1989!

but that's the fun of it. figuring out how to do it.

i've enjoyed project blue thunder, and have again gotten some thoughtstarters, both in what i want to do and what i don't.

blue thunder is taking a similar approach to mine. i know the heads and cam are the big restrictions on my l03, but i want to see what i can get it to do before i make that swap. i make a change, dyno the car, take it to the track, then change something else.

when you take that approach, you sometimes make changes that you know won't show their full benefit till later in the process. for example, i'm in the process of doing headers and exhaust. my ultimate goal is to put a 400 or 383 in the car, so i put a set of slp (gasp! the dreaded slp!!) 1 3/4" headers into dual random technology cats into a 3" random technology cat back. i know full well that i've overdone the exhaust for my near-stock 305. i may even see a drop intorque in the short term, but i only want to do the exhaust once. that could very well be the case with blue thunder's slp runners.

if you look at it without emotion, however, those runners aren't that bad of an investment. 400 bucks for 20 hp is steep, but only a little. you'll put that much into headers and exhaust for about the same gain. a set of power pulleys runs about 100.00 and yields about 7 - 10 hp.

and as far as comparing third gens to 4th gens, that's apples and oranges. anyone with any sense understands lt1 and ls1 are vastly superior designs that make much better power. the point is, if tpi or even tbi is what you've got, then the dollars spent and gains made are only relative to similarly equipped vehicles.

i'm glad gmhtp exists. they give more attention to our cars than any other magazine i've seen. i may not awlays like what they do or agree with the way they do it, but at least they're doing it.

and as far as magazines failing at projects, how can you criticize blue thunder when chevy high performance's my generation camaro is such a turtle? a freshly rebuilt 305 with ported and polished s/r torquer 305 heads, cam, pro built carb, etc that ran a best of 15.39? oh, wait, there was a headwind! i've never seen so many excuses, lies and alibis in my life.

and what do they do? bolt on the slicks and nitrous, get a 13.82 out of the pig and get the hell on. what b.s.

at least gmhtp takes an honest approach and sticks to the rules they lay out in the beginning.

just my 2 cents worth

Originally posted by seanof30306
i agree that project magnum should have been faster for what it was, but i enjoyed reading it nevertheless and got some good ideas ... both of what i want to do and what i DON'T want to do.
This is the part that people have a problem with. They did some things (most likely due to sponshorship issues) that anyone who knows anything about a third gen would tell you not to do. These cars have been around for over a decade now and if you do any research or just ask questions on a message board you will find out pretty quickly what not to do. An article telling you best bang for your buck at this point in the game is what most people are looking for, and really if this many people are upset GMHP is doing a ****ty job because their sole job is to give the readers insite into the things they want to know, none of us are interested in what doesnt work we already know the majority of wont work and anyone could have told them that the runners were a bad idea....this is where the problem lies.

My main beef with GMHTP is the approach. You don't take a test without studying ... and expect to do well. You don't build a house without first talking it over with the architect and contractors. AND - you don't build a thirdgen without talking to those who have done this before and know exactly how to spend the money the best.

... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. First and foremost - go to thirdgen.org. There's a reason the site has the name thirdgen.org .... it's all about thirdgens. Next - hang out there and get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. Don't immediately post questions asking opinions because all the "stupid Joes" will reply with dumb advice. Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

With 10k to spend you can get a reliable thirdgen in the 12's ... with better braking AND better cornering ability. Very easy to do.

Tim

Originally posted by TRAXION
My main beef with GMHTP is the approach. You don't take a test without studying ... and expect to do well. You don't build a house without first talking it over with the architect and contractors. AND - you don't build a thirdgen without talking to those who have done this before and know exactly how to spend the money the best.

... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. First and foremost - go to thirdgen.org. There's a reason the site has the name thirdgen.org .... it's all about thirdgens. Next - hang out there and get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. Don't immediately post questions asking opinions because all the "stupid Joes" will reply with dumb advice. Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

With 10k to spend you can get a reliable thirdgen in the 12's ... with better braking AND better cornering ability. Very easy to do.

Tim

but can't you say the same thing about chevy high performance's my generation camaro? why single gmhtp out when all the car mags do essentially the same thing?

also, i'm not entirely in agreement about going to the boards for expertise. i have gotten an incredible amount of information from thirdgen.org, but some of the accepted "basics" there are just wrong. for example, all you hear about on the tbi board is the "ultimate tbi mods". i took a spare throttle body, did the mods, used the same injector pod on both and got the exact same dyno and 1/4 mile results. no change whatsoever, yet it's an article of faith on there that the ultimate tbi mod is a cornerstone of tbi performance.

new things are discovered by people who try things that others don't; who break the mold and walk a different path. when you do that, you're going to fail more often than not, but when you don't fail, you break new ground. if they went to thirdgen.org and did what everyone recommended, how could they have any chance whatsoever of learning something new?

as a newbie and after reading a bit about tpi, i came to the conclusion that the biggest problem with it is the long runners which limited the engine's ability to breathe at higher rpm. i found seeing a dyno test on those runners interesting. if i had a tpi, that test would make me think twice about buying those runners, just as the posts on thirdgen.org about the poor fit and quality of them would have. i would've concluded there were better and cheaper ways to get 20 hp. what i'd really like to see would be a comparison between the slp, arizona speed and marine and edelbrock runners, but no magazine is going to do that, and you can't blame them.

subscriptions and newsstand sales don't even begin to make a magazine profitable. they NEED advertisers. comparing advertiser's products head-to-head guarantees someone's going to walk away a loser. they can't afford to lose those advertisers and no one can blame them. yeah, the choice of those runners may have been dictated by client pressure. welcome to the real world.

i work in radio as a program director. there isn't a week that goes by that i don't have to consider a slew of promotions from advertisers who won't spend their money with us unless we provide them with "added value". in an ideal world i'd tell them all to go to hell. i'd be unemployed in an ideal world. instead, i make sure every promotion we do has real benefit to our target audience and i make sure the prizes are real and comensurate with the effort required to win them. that's the best i can do. i didn't find their review of the slp runners' performance to be biased, so what's the beef?

all magazines accept submissions from editors at large. if someone has a better way, all they need do is pull out the camera, sit at the computer and write away.

but can't you say the same thing about chevy high performance's my generation camaro? why single gmhtp out when all the car mags do essentially the same thing?

... because there is a difference between CHP which covers all years of Chevrolet vehicles and GMHTP which covers HIGH TECH performance - which means EFI cars. That's the reason.

also, i'm not entirely in agreement about going to the boards for expertise. i have gotten an incredible amount of information from thirdgen.org, but some of the accepted "basics" there are just wrong.

I'll state what I said before ...
... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. ... get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. ... Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

Get it?

new things are discovered by people who try things that others don't; who break the mold and walk a different path.

Again I return to what I said above. The people in the know try new things all the time. Take me for example. When I joined the boards back in the mid-90's it was a 'no-no' to use long tube headers, big cams, and high stall converters. Guess what? I have long tubes, a 3600 stall converter, and a cam that you would use in a carbed application. I'm always treading new ground. I pulled 364rwhp on the STOCK L98 shortblock and expect to pull 380rwhp with the new cam (which is the fourth cam I have installed in this stock shortblock -- did anyone say anything about trying new things?).

as a newbie and after reading a bit about tpi, i came to the conclusion that the biggest problem with it is the long runners which limited the engine's ability to breathe at higher rpm. i found seeing a dyno test on those runners interesting. if i had a tpi, that test would make me think twice about buying those runners, just as the posts on thirdgen.org about the poor fit and quality of them would have. i would've concluded there were better and cheaper ways to get 20 hp. what i'd really like to see would be a comparison between the slp, arizona speed and marine and edelbrock runners, but no magazine is going to do that, and you can't blame them.

Exactly - no magazine is going to do that. And you know what? THEY COULD. Between myself and my personal friends we have all the intakes covered ... MiniRam, SuperRam, StealthRam, Single Plane EFI, LTRs, and SS-LTRs. We talked to Jim McIlvaine and discussed this subject at the Indy '03 gathering at IRP. We would all be willing to lend our intakes for a shootout .... we even have various cubic inch motors with cams from mild to wild to try out different things. Guess what? Shrugged off. Yet this is exactly what thirdgenners want to see. I posted about this several times in response to posts MADE BY GMHTP for what their readers want to see. Everytime I have suggested it everyone chimes in and says "YES!" but it is consistently shrugged off ... probably due to sponsors. But, C'Mon. Be honest with your readers.

yeah, the choice of those runners may have been dictated by client pressure. welcome to the real world.

This is an excuse. Nothing more - nothing less. There's always ways to get your sponsorship. If you show that a good part doesn't perform well in one application then you can turn around and show that it does perform well in another. A great example is the intake comparison. All will shine in their own right.

Tim

Originally posted by TRAXION
Exactly - no magazine is going to do that. And you know what? THEY COULD. Between myself and my personal friends we have all the intakes covered ... MiniRam, SuperRam, StealthRam, Single Plane EFI, LTRs, and SS-LTRs. We talked to Jim McIlvaine and discussed this subject at the Indy '03 gathering at IRP. We would all be willing to lend our intakes for a shootout .... we even have various cubic inch motors with cams from mild to wild to try out different things. Guess what? Shrugged off. Yet this is exactly what thirdgenners want to see. I posted about this several times in response to posts MADE BY GMHTP for what their readers want to see. Everytime I have suggested it everyone chimes in and says "YES!" but it is consistently shrugged off ... probably due to sponsors. But, C'Mon. Be honest with your readers.



This is an excuse. Nothing more - nothing less. There's always ways to get your sponsorship. If you show that a good part doesn't perform well in one application then you can turn around and show that it does perform well in another. A great example is the intake comparison. All will shine in their own right.

Tim

Thanks for being generous with your interpretation of our conversation Tim. Usually when I don't tell readers exactly what they want to hear, their opinions of me are much harsher :) While it may have appeared that I shrugged off your suggestions, I do forward feedback to Rick and every time he asks me what I think people would like to see in the magazine, I always bring up product comparisons.

I think Rick will be doing comparisons in the future, as we have talked about specific parts. One of the toughest aspects of a product comparison is making sure the parts we test are not "ringers" and the procedure we use to test the parts is not biased and does not appear biased. I think Brian Reese is as honest and knowledgeable as the day is long, but if we test headers on his engine dyno and SLP's products come out on top, readers will scream bloody murder, regardless of the controls an parameters we have put in place for the testing. I have also talked with Jim Hall about coming up with a testing procedure to compare suspension parts (specifically torque arms). When he gets back to me, I'll forward that onto Rick as well. I know this is getting off the subject somewhat, but if anyone here can come up with a good procedure to compare torque arms, please forward your idea to Rick Jensen, which brings me to my final thought-

Here is my suggestion to you Tim. Since your test budget is equal to mine, please read Rick's editorial in our current issue (January 2004) and follow through with it. I would also like to suggest that all the great minds in the 3rd Gen world do the same thing. You can still dispense all of your knowledge on this board and others for free, but GMHTP will pay you to share it with our readers.

Originally posted by Jim@GMHTP
Thanks for being generous with your interpretation of our conversation Tim. Usually when I don't tell readers exactly what they want to hear, their opinions of me are much harsher :)

I by no means have a harsh opinion of you Jim. I want to make that VERY clear. Rather, my opinion is a 180d turn on the other side. If I implied that then I am sorry. That was NOT my intention. I will make my point clear right now - My intention was that certain topics are taboo ... no matter WHO is involved (even someone who is obviously a great addition to the team as you). My opinion of you is very positive - 'specially after all the free suntan lotion. Trust me Jim - If I had a bad opinion of you then I would speak my mind. I don't hide things or talk in mystery or stab people in the back. I am up front and clear. I had a great time at Indy - and I appreciate your work, the talk we had, ... and the ride in the road course on your car.

Here is my suggestion to you Tim. ... please read Rick's editorial in our current issue (January 2004) and follow through with it.

Understood. I recently moved and don't have the latest issue. Sometimes I should shutup until I have the latest information. Point taken and I'll read Rick's editorial.

Tim

Originally posted by TRAXION
... because there is a difference between CHP which covers all years of Chevrolet vehicles and GMHTP which covers HIGH TECH performance - which means EFI cars. That's the reason.

I'll state what I said before ...
... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. ... get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. ... Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

Get it?

Again I return to what I said above. The people in the know try new things all the time. Take me for example. When I joined the boards back in the mid-90's it was a 'no-no' to use long tube headers, big cams, and high stall converters. Guess what? I have long tubes, a 3600 stall converter, and a cam that you would use in a carbed application. I'm always treading new ground. I pulled 364rwhp on the STOCK L98 shortblock and expect to pull 380rwhp with the new cam (which is the fourth cam I have installed in this stock shortblock -- did anyone say anything about trying new things?).

Exactly - no magazine is going to do that. And you know what? THEY COULD. Between myself and my personal friends we have all the intakes covered ... MiniRam, SuperRam, StealthRam, Single Plane EFI, LTRs, and SS-LTRs. We talked to Jim McIlvaine and discussed this subject at the Indy '03 gathering at IRP. We would all be willing to lend our intakes for a shootout .... we even have various cubic inch motors with cams from mild to wild to try out different things. Guess what? Shrugged off. Yet this is exactly what thirdgenners want to see. I posted about this several times in response to posts MADE BY GMHTP for what their readers want to see. Everytime I have suggested it everyone chimes in and says "YES!" but it is consistently shrugged off ... probably due to sponsors. But, C'Mon. Be honest with your readers.

This is an excuse. Nothing more - nothing less. There's always ways to get your sponsorship. If you show that a good part doesn't perform well in one application then you can turn around and show that it does perform well in another. A great example is the intake comparison. All will shine in their own right.

Tim

tim,

this will be my final word on the subject. i don't think you're going to change your mind and i'm not going to change mine, so further back and forth is fruitless.

there aren't other ways of getting around sponsorship that will fulfill the mission statement of the magazine.

the goal of the people who own that magazing is to make as big a profit as possible. they do that by selling advertising. period.

the editirial direction of the magazine and all of it's editorial content exist for the sole purpose of attracting a readership which they can then market to potential advertisers. the more readers they attract, the more they can charge advertisers. it's that simple, and it's the same formula applied to all other magazines, television shows, radio stations, etc. it's the cornerstone of modern media marketing. you create a product which will attract users. you charge advertisers for getting their message across to those users.

in order to be able to draw from the largest advertiser base possible, the magazine must appear as neutral as possible, which is why you almost never see head to head comparisons of competing products. i'm with you on this, i'd love to see them, but it's just not going to happen.

haven't you ever wondered why there are so many similar buildups repeated over and over in magazines? that's where you find your comparisons. in july they may do a sbc buildup using one intake, cam, set of heads, etc. several months later, they'll do an almost identical buildup with a different intake, cam, or set of heads, etc. this allows them to showcase both products, and it causes readers to collect and compare the articles. they win both ways.

the reason your mini ram, super ram, stealth ram, etc. shootout fell on deaf ears is because they cannot risk alienating their advertisers by doing direct comparisons. they want ALL of them to buy ads. that's just the way things work.

going back to my radio analogy, coke and pepsi are two of our biggest clients. one of the things we offer both of them is product sampling, where we take coke or pepsi products out to our events and give them away free. it benefits us because we can offer our listeners free, cold drinks and it benefits coke or pepsi because it keeps their brand out there and allows people to sample it.

you can bet your bottom dollar, though, that we never take BOTH products out to an event. it's always either one or the other, and it makes perfect sense. they're providing the product free of charge, in return, they get exclusivity for that event.

here's how i'll bet things happened with blue thunder.

the account exec handling the slp account came to the editorial staff and said: "slp's opening a new dyno facility and would like to showcase it. can we do a story on it? there a buy for $XXXXXX on the line."

the editorial staff said: "sure, our readers are fascinated by dyno tests, and they're right near us, so it's really convenient for us, too. we have project blue thunder here, we need to test it, so we'll do the story around it."

the account exec talked to slp, then came back and said: "hey, slp markets a lot of parts for those tpi third gens, they'll not only do the dyno testing, but they'll handle the installation and provide the runners as well!".

now, the editorial department, knowing how things work, already knew there was no way they were going to be able to test as&m or edelbrock runners on slp's dyno, as they're in competition with slp for runner sales, so they agreed, even though they'd probably originally planned on waiting till later to swap the runners.

but, you can also bet that somewhere in the gmhtp archives, there's an article where they bolted on a set of as&m or edelbrock runners and posted the dyno results. a smart reader could read all three articles, compare the relative gains and have some basis to make a choice between them.

the fact is, almost all of the major parts you see on project cars are donated by the manufacturers in return for showcasing the parts. sometimes it'll be a parts warehouse that does it. a few months ago, one of the magazines did a story on a buildup with all the parts coming from p.a.w., i believe. you can bet that if p.a.w. didn't sell the part, it didn't get on that engine.

super chevy now has speed-o-motive (i believe) doing all the work and dyno testing on danger mouse. you can bet they won't be having one of their competitors doing any work on it.

there's a red and silver 67 chevelle on the cover of the september issue of hot rod. i ran across the car and the guy who built it at year one. he and his father build a lot of cars you see in magazines, including the white and orange 69 camaro convertible you've seen all over magazines for the past year.

i saw he was using the holley commander setup and asked him why he'd chosen it over gen vii dfi or f.a.s.t.. he said he's used it because holley had donated all the induction, heads, headers, ignition, etc. just to have them showcased on the car.

there's nothing unethical or sleazy about any of this. they're not lying about the results. you don't see anyone saying these parts are any better than anyone elses. they use the parts and post the results. the reader is free to make their own conclusions. the reader can also stash that article and compare it to other articles covering similar buildups using different parts combinations.

i have a detailed plan for the buildup of my tbi firebird. i developed that plan by reading everything i could get my hands on, including car mags and thirdgen.org. as i've learned more, i've adjusted the plan, whether it was a new article in a magazine or an old thread i dug up on thirdgen.org.

i'll bet there's very few people out there who will be using the exact same setup i am, as i'm not copying anyone's. i'm taking a little from here, a little from there and doing my own thing. that's the value of any magazine article. it'll either help me decide on parts to use, or it'll help me decide on parts not to use.

the one thing i'm suprised you haven't brought up, especially considering the board you moderate on thirdgen.org, is the total lack of articles in any magazine on chip burning. there are a ton of cars using those computers, but no organized aftermarket for parts and equipment to tune them. i believe that's why we don't see it. hypertech and jet sell chips (albeit bad ones) and they advertise. no advertiser's marketing a diy chip burning kit, so they won't do how to articles on chip burning and risk losing hypertech and jet chip's business. it sucks, but i understand why. bet on this. the day a potential advertiser DOES begin to market a diy chip burning kit and is willing to spend money on ads for it, you'll see all the magazines doing articles on it.

ok, carpal tunnel has set in now. i'm outa here.

seanof30306,

Great response. I think I actually agree with everything you just said :D I haven't brought up chip burning because of exactly what you said. I suggested it to Johnny a long time ago and it was blown off. Maybe I should try again?

Hey GMHTP! Here's what I wrote...
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml

lol. I know. I gotta suggest it formally via the postal service.

Tim

Tim, I just don't want people to think their suggestions are falling on deaf ears, as Sean has already insinuated in his most recent post. I want people to know we always encourage feedback and suggestions, even if we don't act on them right away.

Comparison tests are typically among the most common requests and as I mentioned earlier, I think Rick may have something in the works for a future issue. Unfortunately, good/accurate comparison testing is not as easy as four guys showing up at a chassis dyno with four different intakes and swapping them on and off the same car to see what happens.

The idea would be to minimize all the variables in both the testing procedure and the parts themselves. We wouldn't want manufacturers to send us "ringer" parts, nor would we want someone to port their intake, just so they look like they know more than the other guys.

Rick has sent an open invitation to anyone interested in contributing to the magazine and you guys have managed to fill up four pages discussing this subject. Will any of you send him a tech story with good photographs about how you were able to get better results for less money?

Originally posted by Jim@GMHTP
Tim, I just don't want people to think their suggestions are falling on deaf ears, as Sean has already insinuated in his most recent post. I want people to know we always encourage feedback and suggestions, even if we don't act on them right away.

Comparison tests are typically among the most common requests and as I mentioned earlier, I think Rick may have something in the works for a future issue. Unfortunately, good/accurate comparison testing is not as easy as four guys showing up at a chassis dyno with four different intakes and swapping them on and off the same car to see what happens.

The idea would be to minimize all the variables in both the testing procedure and the parts themselves. We wouldn't want manufacturers to send us "ringer" parts, nor would we want someone to port their intake, just so they look like they know more than the other guys.

Rick has sent an open invitation to anyone interested in contributing to the magazine and you guys have managed to fill up four pages discussing this subject. Will any of you send him a tech story with good photographs about how you were able to get better results for less money?

jim,

whoa ... as i "insinuated?"

i could swear i was defending you guys, but also acknowledged reality, something you don't appear to be doing.

if comparisons aren't verboten, it's really easy for you to do them.

get a stock 350 tpi camaro, dyno it, then blindly buy the other induction setups you want to test. don't call the manufacturer, call jeg's or summit as joe schmoe, buy the parts off the shelf just like we have to and bolt them on as delivered.

there's no fairer way to compare them, and that knowledge is so basic it's insulting for you to act as though you don't know that. don't throw me under the bus by suggesting otherwise. a fraternity brother of mine sells for one of the magazines in your group, i know how things work, as do you.

i admired you guys for getting on these boards and duking it out with your detractors, but laying down this load of b.s. is crap.

please point out ONE side by side comparison you've printed of competing parts.

Sean, I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, but Tim's initial comments were that I "shrugged off" his suggestion. I remember our conversation at NFME and I didn't want anyone reading this thead to get the impression that suggestions made to me or any other magazine editor would "fall on deaf ears," which I believe are the exact words you used (not insinuated, I stand corrected) in the previous post that I cited. I'm just trying to clarify the fact that we openly encourage feedback and take it very seriously and I don't want the context of that conversation to be misconstrued here or anywhere else. I'm not trying to lay down any b.s., I just want people to understand they're not wasting their breath or time by giving us feedback, good or bad.

As for the comparison, I'm in total agreement with you as to how parts should be acquired for a comparison test and was merely elaborating on the reality of why doing a shootout with the intakes from Tim's buddy's cars isn't a good idea. Keep in mind, an ideal testing scenario wouldn't end with just buying parts off the shelf. Where do you test them? If you go to a shop that sells brand X, but not brand Y, will that affiliation come back to haunt you if brand X is deemed superior? If you really want accurate testing on intakes, will you limit your testing to just a chassis dyno, or will you use an engine dyno, flow bench and dragstrip? As for testing a TPI, I currently own two LS1s and a TBI. While I like third gens, I'm not willing to buy a TPI and four intakes just to write a comparison test that might pay $500 (before paying for the proper testing facilities). That's one reason why I don't write too many tech stories :)

My collection of GMHTP dates back to the HTP days and I don't know if any of them have side-by-side comparisons, but that doesn't mean it won't happen under Rick Jensen's leadership. As I mentioned previously in this thread, Rick and I have had discussions regarding comparison testing, so keep an eye on future issues and you may see it.

Originally posted by Jim@GMHTP
Sean, I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, but Tim's initial comments were that I "shrugged off" his suggestion. I remember our conversation at NFME and I didn't want anyone reading this thead to get the impression that suggestions made to me or any other magazine editor would "fall on deaf ears," which I believe are the exact words you used (not insinuated, I stand corrected) in the previous post that I cited. I'm just trying to clarify the fact that we openly encourage feedback and take it very seriously and I don't want the context of that conversation to be misconstrued here or anywhere else. I'm not trying to lay down any b.s., I just want people to understand they're not wasting their breath or time by giving us feedback, good or bad.

As for the comparison, I'm in total agreement with you as to how parts should be acquired for a comparison test and was merely elaborating on the reality of why doing a shootout with the intakes from Tim's buddy's cars isn't a good idea. Keep in mind, an ideal testing scenario wouldn't end with just buying parts off the shelf. Where do you test them? If you go to a shop that sells brand X, but not brand Y, will that affiliation come back to haunt you if brand X is deemed superior? If you really want accurate testing on intakes, will you limit your testing to just a chassis dyno, or will you use an engine dyno, flow bench and dragstrip? As for testing a TPI, I currently own two LS1s and a TBI. While I like third gens, I'm not willing to buy a TPI and four intakes just to write a comparison test that might pay $500 (before paying for the proper testing facilities). That's one reason why I don't write too many tech stories :)

My collection of GMHTP dates back to the HTP days and I don't know if any of them have side-by-side comparisons, but that doesn't mean it won't happen under Rick Jensen's leadership. As I mentioned previously in this thread, Rick and I have had discussions regarding comparison testing, so keep an eye on future issues and you may see it.

tim's point was that he felt there was little interest and no action when he proposed the "shootout". i simply told him why i felt that was the case. the fact that there has been no interest expressed or action taken validates the "shrugged off/fell on deaf ears" analogy. paying the "i hear what you're saying" lip service doesn't constitute taking reader input seriously.

the shockingly simple answer to how to avoid shops that sell brand x or brand y is to go to a shop that sells none. i know of at least three completely independent chassis dynos in the atlanta area, you can't tell me there aren't some in jersey. but you do bring up a good point. using slp's dyno virtually guarantee's suspicion when you use slp parts. read the last 4 pages.

you could easily find a non-affiliated shop with a flow bench that would be glad to compare your intakes for the mentions.

as far as engine dyno testing, you could easily take a 350 "mule", bolt it on the engine dyno and have at it. you could test numerous induction systems in a short time. it's not a new idea. danger mouse. look into it.

as far as track testing, i'd love it, but you'd be looking at at least a week between each test, as there's no way you could swap out and tune that many setups in a single day. then there'd be the temp differential/altitude correction/headwind/tailwind woulda, coulda, shoulda crap that's so infuriating about so many track tests of project cars.

your mentioning the article's paying only 500.00 and not being worth the investment leads me to believe you're freelance or at least an "editor at large". you're right, it wouldn't be cost effective for someone in that position to do that, but it would be for a salaried staff writer expensing the parts.

now, i don't know anything about rick jensen except that i enjoy his writing, but i can guarantee you if the heads-up comparisons aren't killed by sales and management as soon as he proposes them, they absolutely will be the moment the sales manager takes the call from the manufacturer of product "y" cancelling their advertising after you print that product "x" outperformed them.

we both know full well that call will happen.

Originally posted by seanof30306
tim's point was that he felt there was little interest and no action when he proposed the "shootout". i simply told him why i felt that was the case. the fact that there has been no interest expressed or action taken validates the "shrugged off/fell on deaf ears" analogy. paying the "i hear what you're saying" lip service doesn't constitute taking reader input seriously.



If you don't factor in magazine lead-time, then yes, it would be valid analogy. The fact of the matter is, GMHTP hasn't even run the event coverage from the NFME yet and that's where the entire conversation took place. If we didn't take an interest in reader feedback, we wouldn't bother to post on message boards and just because a suggestion doesn't show up in the very next issue, doesn't mean something isn't planned for the future. Rick barely has three issues under his editorial belt, so I would suggest giving him a little more time to get things rolling.

I am a freelancer and I don't live in New Jersey, I live in Janesville, Wisconsin, which is not exactly the epicenter of the horsepower universe. We do have some independent shops with dynos out here, but their idea of a controlled testing environment may be nothing more than a box fan in front of the radiator. I've followed Danger Mouse and read the long source box at the end of each installment, have you? If Westech were five minutes from my house, I'd probably give them a call.

Rick Jensen is the salaried staff writer and technically, the only full-time employee of the magazine. He gets to share some staff with other magazines, but otherwise, it's a one man show, which is why he's always looking for good freelancers. Car & Driver and maybe even Hot Rod can go out and "expense" an engine here or a slew of parts there, but if you take a good look at GMHTP's project cars, you'll see that they are typically owned by the people writing the stories, purchased not with a corporate expense account, but with their own money. Hunkins tried to give some insight on the operations of GMHTP in his March 2003 editorial, but ended up getting bashed for it by people who felt he was just making up excuses for why he won't run certain stories.

You may be right about the fallout from future comparison testing. It's happened before and it could happen again. Since Rick is new, maybe he'll be given some leeway or be allowed to make a few "mistakes." It would help his cause greatly if readers responded to such a comparison by filling his mailbox with letters and buying up lots of parts from the company that came out on top. Who knows, lost revenue from one advertiser could be made up by a bigger ad from another.

Let me ask you this- Is it better to do compromised comparison testing or single product testing? What if we don't have a 350 mule sitting in the corner of our garage? What if the closest independent shop with an engine dyno or flow bench doesn't feel like testing parts all day in exchange for a postage stamp-sized mention in a bi-monthly magazine they've never heard of? What compromises can you guys live with in product comparisons? Which ones will ruin the credibility of the story?

Originally posted by Jim@GMHTP
If you don't factor in magazine lead-time, then yes, it would be valid analogy. The fact of the matter is, GMHTP hasn't even run the event coverage from the NFME yet and that's where the entire conversation took place. If we didn't take an interest in reader feedback, we wouldn't bother to post on message boards and just because a suggestion doesn't show up in the very next issue, doesn't mean something isn't planned for the future. Rick barely has three issues under his editorial belt, so I would suggest giving him a little more time to get things rolling.

I am a freelancer and I don't live in New Jersey, I live in Janesville, Wisconsin, which is not exactly the epicenter of the horsepower universe. We do have some independent shops with dynos out here, but their idea of a controlled testing environment may be nothing more than a box fan in front of the radiator. I've followed Danger Mouse and read the long source box at the end of each installment, have you? If Westech were five minutes from my house, I'd probably give them a call.

Rick Jensen is the salaried staff writer and technically, the only full-time employee of the magazine. He gets to share some staff with other magazines, but otherwise, it's a one man show, which is why he's always looking for good freelancers. Car & Driver and maybe even Hot Rod can go out and "expense" an engine here or a slew of parts there, but if you take a good look at GMHTP's project cars, you'll see that they are typically owned by the people writing the stories, purchased not with a corporate expense account, but with their own money. Hunkins tried to give some insight on the operations of GMHTP in his March 2003 editorial, but ended up getting bashed for it by people who felt he was just making up excuses for why he won't run certain stories.

You may be right about the fallout from future comparison testing. It's happened before and it could happen again. Since Rick is new, maybe he'll be given some leeway or be allowed to make a few "mistakes." It would help his cause greatly if readers responded to such a comparison by filling his mailbox with letters and buying up lots of parts from the company that came out on top. Who knows, lost revenue from one advertiser could be made up by a bigger ad from another.

Let me ask you this- Is it better to do compromised comparison testing or single product testing? What if we don't have a 350 mule sitting in the corner of our garage? What if the closest independent shop with an engine dyno or flow bench doesn't feel like testing parts all day in exchange for a postage stamp-sized mention in a bi-monthly magazine they've never heard of? What compromises can you guys live with in product comparisons? Which ones will ruin the credibility of the story?

first, if you actually go back and read what i've written, you'll clearly see that my posts weren't directed at you, or even gmhtp specifically. rather, they were directed at the industry in general. NO ONE does product comparisons.

you'll also see that i wasn't faulting the industry for that. i was trying to explain the realities the industry operates under.

the fact is, maybe a guy living in janesville wisconsisn isn't the one to write those comparison stories. please understand this isn't a reflection on you or your abilities, but merely an acknowledgement of your admitted lack of access to resources.

while i understand that gmhtp is a "little guy" operation (and i admire that), that's not a valid excuse for not doing specific types of content. there's an expectation of performance to get in the game, and not being near facilities or having the financial resources of bigger magazines doesn't matter to readers whose expectations aren't being met. if a stripper insists on wearing boxer shorts because she can't afford a g-string, she can't complain because she doesn't make a lot of tips.

remember, i'm a fan of gmhtp. but your last post makes me think you guys could use some focus. define your niche and make sure every article fits it. if your financial resources are limited, if you're a bunch of freelancers living in wisconsin or louisianna, then specialize in low-buck projects that can be duplicated by everyday joes who don't live next door to year one or random technology. the truth is, that "little guy" position would have a lot of appeal to many of us in this hobby if it manifested itself in editorial content more directed at us little guys.

project magnum, for example, was a high buck project ... not something for a little guy. that shortblock is probably strong enough to withstand a grenade being stuffed in a cylinder, but what regular guy could afford to build that engine for his daily driver?

go to thirdgen.org and do a search on "mike crews" there's an amazing thread on there detailing the progress of his 383, vortec-headed, 3.23 geared, daily-driven tpi camaro. he drives to the track on street tires, leaves the mufflers up, sticks it in "d" and runs low, low 12s on a very modest, but very well thought out setup. i'm not pointing that out to suggest you copy his setup, but he's a little guy in aiken, sc who does a lot of research, asks a lot of questions and sweats every detail. a guy in janesville wisconsin (i used to live in rockford, il, by the way) could definitely do that.... and write about it. i'd read stories like that all day, as i can relate to that much more readily than i can a super high buck project like project magnum. again, i enjoyed project magnum, but it didn't light me up like the hsr project you guys did this summer. or even blue thunder. i LIKE seeing a real street car making incremental gains over time.

maybe that's what's annoying people. little guys don't go and bolt 400 bucks worth of intake runners onto an essentially stock 305. i'm not saying runners wouldn't be on the list of upgrades, but it'd probably have made more sense and been more interesting to see other, less expensive mods first. now, those runners skew the results of every other mod made. being a tbi guy, i blew right past the runners, but the power pulleys really grabbed my attention.

and as far as getting a mule goes? get on the internet, search engine remanufacturers and make some calls. i'd bet my bottom dollar you could find someone willing to donate an l98 for mentions. are you really going to tell me there's not a chance of gm performance parts or scroggins dickey giving you a goodwrench shortblock for mentions? come on! do you really think chevy high performance paid for their mule in the goodwrench quest? don't you think there's a gmpp dealer in the country who wouldn't like people to know there's somewhere else to buy gm engines from besides sdpc?

you might have a hard time finding shops in a smaller town like janesville willing to donate their time for mentions. there's not a large enough population base there to warrant it. come to someplace like atlanta, however, and they'll be lining up. i know, i've talked to a couple of shops here that have been featured in magazine articles. their phones light up like christmas trees. if they're assured of being showcased, they gladly donate their labor.

and as far as the controlled testing environment goes? as long as it's the same box fan in front of the radiator in all the tests, it doesn't matter. i bought a g-tech awhile back. i don't care if it gives me the same results i get at the track or on the dyno (it's actually pretty darn close). all i care about is that it's consistent to itself so i can accurately judge the effect of the modifications i make to my car. the actual time or horsepower doesn't matter. i want to know if it's faster or slower ... more or less powerful.

you know, the more i think about it, the more i think i agree with tim, at least on one point. if you're going to specialize in a segment of a market, you should know that market intimately. while you guys do a lot more 4th gen than third gen content (not arguing that fact, there are a lot more 4th gens being hot rodded than 3rd gens), when you do write about third gens, it shouldn't make everyone knowledgable about third gens gnash their teeth and pull their hair.

ok, i'm going to go pull my hair now.

Sean, I know your posts regarding product testing weren't directed at me and you didn't fault the industry for why things are the way they are. All I'm saying is, be patient with Rick, see what he can do.

The guys that write our third gen tech are very familiar with thirdgen.org. In fact, that may be were Hunkins found Kevin Gray. You seem to have the answers on how to do this and the resources in the Atlanta area. Perhaps you should contact Rick directly and pitch him a story idea.

I've got an idea, take it for what it's worth. Why not feature a "Real World Build-Ups" tech article, or page, whatever...
Give a voice and picture every issue to someone who puts hard work and wrench-time in their ride, that performs well. And not like the reader rides where you have to break out the magnifying glass to read it. A working man's project, by that I mean something that's not a bzillion dollar build up, or isn't a daily driver...

BTW, if I didn't like GMHTP or others like CHP, I wouln't bust your chops, I'd just write you off and move on...
I enjoy tech articles like the one on the " Getting to know Optispark" or "Perfect Timing" etc.etc...And variety like Impala and TR articles too, as I see them all of the time at the local track and talk to their drivers.
Could I do it cheaper?, probably...If I get back from this Mass Lay Off soon, I will buy one of the $1500-$2500 305 TPI Z's in my area and find out.(documenting everything..)Right now, my engine is still apart waitiing the funding to finish, hopefully by Springtime.
But every time I see any Mag throw money and parts at a project "seemingly" blindly, giving off all of the wrong impressions. I'll RED FLAG ya!...with all do respect.

Originally posted by 90rocz
I've got an idea, take it for what it's worth. Why not feature a "Real World Build-Ups" tech article, or page, whatever...
Give a voice and picture every issue to someone who puts hard work and wrench-time in their ride, that performs well. And not like the reader rides where you have to break out the magnifying glass to read it. A working man's project, by that I mean something that's not a bzillion dollar build up, or isn't a daily driver...

BTW, if I didn't like GMHTP or others like CHP, I wouln't bust your chops, I'd just write you off and move on...
I enjoy tech articles like the one on the " Getting to know Optispark" or "Perfect Timing" etc.etc...And variety like Impala and TR articles too, as I see them all of the time at the local track and talk to their drivers.
Could I do it cheaper?, probably...If I get back from this Mass Lay Off soon, I will buy one of the $1500-$2500 305 TPI Z's in my area and find out.(documenting everything..)Right now, my engine is still apart waitiing the funding to finish, hopefully by Springtime.
But every time I see any Mag throw money and parts at a project "seemingly" blindly, giving off all of the wrong impressions. I'll RED FLAG ya!...with all do respect.


That's a badass idea. Have an article like "Real World Build Ups" every month. Eventhough I have lost interest in GMHTP and don't subscribe anymore I will occasionally buy one every 3 months or so. I didn't read most of the posts made in this thread but I heard someone mention product comparisons. GOOD IDEA :D

That is an excellent idea and one that Tom DeMauro has been trying to implement at High Performance Pontiac Magazine for several years now. The problem is that apparently, none of his readers are interested. I can understand why someone may not get too motivated to send in a picture that isn't going to run much bigger than a postage stamp, but DeMauro is offering to pay readers to write 500 words on their car, plus up to four color pictures and he gets very few takers.

Rick and I have discussed revamping the Street Heat page, as fourth gen F-bodies dominate the mailbox to the point where we begin to wonder if our readers own anything else. I'm sure he'd be open to such a format, if it can be sustained, but DeMauro is lucky to run Grassroots Racer Times more than a few times a year and his readership is much larger than GMHTP's.

If seven of you are motivated enough to put together a 500 word write-up and include five or six nice pictures, e-mail me. Seven cars would be enough to run the column for a full year and see what kind of response we get from readers. I would hold off on doing the actual write-ups for now, because I don't want to waste anyone's time if only three people will follow through on this.

jim_m@charter.net

jim,

i'm actually hoping to write about my l03 firebird buildup. the big question i have is about pictures.

if i use a digital camera, how many megapixels should the camera have and what format do you submit the pics in?

First, Speed-O-Motive is a joke. I lost all interest in Super Chevy's Danger Mouse when I read they are using them for assembly. I'd sure like to read the outtakes and blooper reels from how their engines blow up. :rolleyes:

Second, I think it was Hot Rod magazine that actually did an aftermarket ignition comparison a few months ago between MSD, Crane, Accel, Mallory, etc ignition boxes. Not surprisingly, the difference between the HP made by the highest box to the lowest box was 7 HP.

Third, I'd love to get my car, my father's 92 Camaro he converted to TPI, and his 87 El Camino he converted to TPI in the magazine. However, with GMHTP on the east coast, the possibilities arent good. And, since my dad is a professional mechanic, we mostly make and fabricate our own parts, like piecing together 1LE 12" brakes, custom torque arms, LCA brackets, custom siamesed SLP runners, etc. There isnt much to gain from advertisers here. Still, I can write up a 500 word essay describing some of the things we've done to get our cars to run high 12's.

Originally posted by Kevin91Z
First, Speed-O-Motive is a joke. I lost all interest in Super Chevy's Danger Mouse when I read they are using them for assembly. I'd sure like to read the outtakes and blooper reels from how their engines blow up. :rolleyes:

Second, I think it was Hot Rod magazine that actually did an aftermarket ignition comparison a few months ago between MSD, Crane, Accel, Mallory, etc ignition boxes. Not surprisingly, the difference between the HP made by the highest box to the lowest box was 7 HP.

Third, I'd love to get my car, my father's 92 Camaro he converted to TPI, and his 87 El Camino he converted to TPI in the magazine. However, with GMHTP on the east coast, the possibilities arent good. And, since my dad is a professional mechanic, we mostly make and fabricate our own parts, like piecing together 1LE 12" brakes, custom torque arms, LCA brackets, custom siamesed SLP runners, etc. There isnt much to gain from advertisers here. Still, I can write up a 500 word essay describing some of the things we've done to get our cars to run high 12's.

as a reader, i'd LOVE to see detailed, "how-to" articles on piecing together 1le brakes, etc. i'd suggest you write and submit 'em. worst case scenario ... post them on here or on thirdgen.org so us third-gens-for-dummies types can benefit from your experiences.

Magazines like to see an absolute minimum of three megapixels for digital imagesand JPEGS are fine.

We'd love to hear about your car Kevin and please don't think having a boatload of parts from advertisers is mandatory. Guys like Jordon Musser and Chris Sikora can tell you that is definitely not the case.

Originally posted by Dirt Reynolds
[b]
Some articles in GMHTP are actually quite well done. The recent story on the Stealth Ram install a few issues back for example, and track testing compared to a fully modded TPI system, was very informative and interesting.


Does anyone have this that they could scan in? What issue was it?

Originally posted by robvas
Does anyone have this that they could scan in? What issue was it?

Better yet, why not just go here (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0307htp_holleystealth/), and check out the entire article online.

:)

Originally posted by Dirt Reynolds
Better yet, why not just go here (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0307htp_holleystealth/), and check out the entire article online.

:)

Sweet, thanks

I graphed the numbers for everyone to see:

Link (http://robvas.dyndns.org:3000/rob/hsr-tpi.gif)

I found it interesting the runners and underdrive pulleys together (20rwhp) made more power than the headers and cat-back together (15rwhp). Albeit the runners/pulley's gains were with the exhaust already done, without the headers/catback they wouldn't have done as much, but it was still interesting. 20 real world, rear-wheel hp is nothing to sneeze at for two mods so easily added... Especially when a set of headers only hadded 7 or 8 rwhp...

This is the kind of article I wish they did more of, bolt ons with track and dyno runs to verify the results...

Can't say I dig the $1800 set of wheels in a $10k buildup but then again if you want some nice wheels it needs to figure into the budget somewhere. I think most people forget supporting mods, appearance only mods, and other not-so-glamorous mods that run the real $$$ numbers up substantially on a real project... Of course if they can't manage to get into the 12s before the budget is blown I'll be a little disappointed (and will blame it all on the nearly $2k blown on the decidely non-budget friendly wheels...), if they're keeping the 305 they may very well not reach the 12s without spray.

I can't wait to see what a heads/cam upgrade and whatever else they end up squeezing in will accomplish for the numbers. I hope GMHTP and others do more thirdgen buildups. After that horrid CHP buildup I think it was (did they ever get out of the 15s after gears/exhaust/heads/cam upgrades??) GMHTP is already ahead of the curve...