SCCA's American Sedan class...

I wanted to get in this and was wondering if I could compete with a 93-97 Z with a carbed 305 LT1. Anyone?

:metal:

... it doesn't matter the make of car, it must be powered by a carb'd 305.
Last year at the Runoffs, the second place car was this 95 Camaro (http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_a/245000-245999/245657_11_full.jpg) out of the NE.

If I recall correctly that car is currently for sale by Tom Oat's dealership

John Heinricy won the June Sprints this year in a 4th gen. Let me know if you need help building one, I'm starting another this winter. You must use the standard 305 block and heads.

Does 'standard' mean it has to originally be a 305 block? I'm not too sure of all the rules so...this is just a project that's gonna span a bit, I still have to go to racing school. If maybe you could get me some guide lines for building a racer that'd be cool. Late!

:metal:

Yes, It needs to be a 305 block. I highly recommend you buy a GCR and read the rules before you start so you know what your gettting into. A/S will be expensive, they burn up tires and brakes at an alarming rate!

I'm pretty sure that all the race cars that were for sale at Tom Oates have been sold. The only one left will be his T1 Corvette and that will go after the Runoffs next week.
They still maintain a large number of customer cars, from A/S to T2, inluding some from the Speed GT World Challenge.
If you get a chance to go to Mid-Ohio, talk to some of the competitors in the A/S class. They'll be your best source of direct info. It's also a fairly good place to buy one. Some get out of the class and move up or down and put the cars up for sale after the competition. Price is according to where and how they finished.

If you're looking to do some wheel to wheel racing in a 4th Gen then I would look at NASA's American Iron (AI) class.

All cars are on a 9.5hp/lb power to weight ratio which keeps costs down (relatively) and gives everyone an even playing field to compete.

A bolt on LT1/LS1 can put you right where you need to be powerwise which is alot easier than stuffing in a carbed 305.

You REALLY NEED to buy the SCCA GCR if you are thinking of running a car in AS. The rules are VERY SPECIFIC. You must have a block with a certain casting number and heads with a certain casting number as well. There is a specific model carb, trans, etc. that can be used.

You would basically have to junk the engine/trans/brakes/etc. from your current car and buy/build all new.

I agree with those above, for user friendliness, NASA American Iron is probably the best bet. If you are an SCCA man such as myself, I would suggest running the car in ITE...in most regions it is a free for all class......downsides are any one can bring a Speedvision car and kick your but, and it is a regional only class.

Let me know if you have any questions

Randy

Originally posted by rmackintosh
The rules are VERY SPECIFIC. You must have a block with a certain casting number and heads with a certain casting number as well. There is a specific model carb, trans, etc. that can be used.

You would basically have to junk the engine/trans/brakes/etc. from your current car and buy/build all new.

I agree with those above, for user friendliness, NASA American Iron is probably the best bet. If you are an SCCA man such as myself, I would suggest running the car in ITE...in most regions it is a free for all class......downsides are any one can bring a Speedvision car and kick your but, and it is a regional only class.

Let me know if you have any questions

Randy

I looked into SCCA and the class restrictions made it a no go. For the Sedan class as mentioned above not only would it mean a new engine but a fuel cell is also required. NASA and American Iron is the way to compete w/what you have.

Steve

Originally posted by Soma07
All cars are on a 9.5hp/lb power to weight ratio which keeps costs down (relatively) and gives everyone an even playing field to compete.

I was at Waterford Hills on Sunday and found 2 3rd gen F body owners that were doing a last test and tune session before the Nats at Mid Ohio. I did a lot of looking at their cars and asking some questions. I'm very happy with AI based on what I heard from them. The engines in AS seem very expensive and now they're going to allow aftermarket cranks since the Ford guys were running 7500 rpm (!!!) and breaking their stock cranks.

In AI the problem for a 4th gen is getting to a competitive weight. My target over the winter is 3000 lbs. with half a tank of gas, but I may not get there without spending a lot of money. I am about 3120 lbs. with non-legal tires and wheels (315s on 17x11s), half a tank of gas, and without driver. To hit 3000 lbs. I'm about to need a VFN glass hood, Percy's lexan windshield and a k-member, as well as the legal 17x9.5" wheels and Toyo 275/40/17 tires. The problem is other Mustangs out there are in the 2700-2800 lbs. range without driver. That's tough. I appear to stand a chance in the straights, but s-turns and braking could be a problem. I'll get a better idea next year. This year I'm not buying the Toyos and the like since there's so little left in the season.

Wait until guys start showing up with supercharged V6s with an even lower weight limit. :eek:

Now the pitch for the Camaro-Mustang Challenge (http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com) - runs in NASA, a much lower budget alternative to American Iron and A/S. You would have to get your LT1 intake back and have your motor stock, then put in a restrictor plate to get you to the 230hp 300ft-lb restriction. Check out our rules for more specifics and where we are running in the USA on the website.

IMHO it is better for your driver development to start out in a lower hp series. High hp cars are not forgiving. The competition is a lot closer in CMC than in the AI series where I am too. Our top finishing CMCers fastest lap times are right in there with some of the AI guys we run with. Driving skills win in our CMC since our cars are so evenly matched.

wHAT IS YOUR GUYS' ANNUAL BUDGET ON RACING IN THE NASA AI AND THE CMC CLASSES? aND ALSO, HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO BUILD A CAR IF i WENT OUT AND BOUGHT AN ALL STOCK CAR, HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO STRIP AND PREP FOR THOSE CLASSES? tHANKS

Edit: Sorry about the caps, I'm in CAD class...

search the message forum at http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com losta information there for CMC...

From what I read, if nothing bad happens, some guys budget around $6000 a year to run.

Looking around the classifieds, it seems that you can get a decent used 3rd gen, ready to race, for starting $7,000... around the $15k point it looks like you can get an extremely competative car with all the stuff.. don't quote me on these numbers, just off the top of my head from what I remember reading there.. Its alot cheaper to buy used.. and unless you really know what your doing, its probably better to get someone that knows how to build em...

Most of them seem to be in the Cali region.. I think there is an East Coast division.. If I had the money and time, I'd consider getting a 3rd gen f-bod CMC car, and also getting more seat time in SCCA ITE.... Then, if you want more speed, drop in a healthy 383 with a good tranny and enter AI.. ;) Or how about a 427 C5R block and enter into AIX... :D








Originally posted by KwikistZ
wHAT IS YOUR GUYS' ANNUAL BUDGET ON RACING IN THE NASA AI AND THE CMC CLASSES? aND ALSO, HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO BUILD A CAR IF i WENT OUT AND BOUGHT AN ALL STOCK CAR, HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO STRIP AND PREP FOR THOSE CLASSES? tHANKS

Edit: Sorry about the caps, I'm in CAD class...

It is closer to $7k to run on the average. You have to figure in hotels, gas, maintenance, broken stuff, a new set of Toyo Proxes RA-1s each season (or more at $800 shaved). This is after you have your car set-up.

The best way to go is to buy a CMC car that has already been sorted, the price range for third gen Camaros is $7-12k. I did not buy a sorted car, bought a stocker and had it built by a sponsor. Finally at year three it is set up nicely. That was too long a wait! There are several cars for sale on the CMC board now including the top running #45 Camaro owned by Nick Steel.

Originally posted by KwikistZ
wHAT IS YOUR GUYS' ANNUAL BUDGET ON RACING IN THE NASA AI

I can tell you what I've budgeted for AI. Assuming you start with a race legal car . . .

2 sets of tires per year (doing 6-8 races) $1700.
Each race (entry and gas money included) $350-$400
Above assumes camping at the track
Brakes and rotors - 3 sets of pads and rotors per year - $500
Mod and upkeep budget per year so I don't have to detail the other misc things - $4000

This is not including bribing a friend to go with you to each race to help you out. I'm still working on the budget for that one.

If you start with a street car and want to convert it, I'd give a rough guess it'll cost you about $3500 for safety equipment (cage, fire system, seat, harness, wiring, driver's suit, helmet, etc.) Then prepare to spend some time over the winter stripping the car down in an effort to get down to Mustang fighting weight. I'm still not there. Then you have to do the suspension and engine work to be competitive. For a LT1 car I'd guesstimate about $2000 for a set of headers, cat back, camshaft, and computer reprogram. Suspension mods would include shocks, coilover springs, sway bars, control arms (front and rear), panhard rod, torque arm, etc. I don't think you could buy the parts new for less than $2500. New wheels for the Toyos can cost anywhere from $400 (AFS wheels off ebay new) to $2000 for some light weight wheels.

Damn, I'm depressed thinking I've spent that kind of money already. I'm having fun though, so that's what counts, right? :cool:

You're damn right! It's all about the fun! That's why I wanna get into this. And I'ma build my own car cause I won't be racing till I get outta college, I just started. Headers aren't legal in CMC by the way. All this talking about racing makes me want to do it so bad:mad:

Sketchy

I'll also chime in to promote the CMC class (and not just 'cause my car is for sale too (http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/viewtopic.php?t=536)). :D

CMC is essentially a 'spec' class, where you can change exhaust from the manifolds back, but just about every other motor mod is a no-no. So there are 230 or 250 HP limits, depending on configs (check the rules HERE (http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/docs/2003CMCRules.htm)). While keeping costs down, it also breaks from the 'how fast do you want to go - how much $$ do you have?' mold.

It also stresses chassis/suspension setup and driver development over wallet size for lap times. A few weeks ago at Thunderhill, I believe the top 10 cars were less than a second and a half apart in lap times. Great close racing.

And as Jules mentioned, a good car with a good driver turns comparable laptimes to some of the AI cars.

If you're considering racing for the first time, CMC is great in that the costs are REALLY cheap (as far as racing goes), and if you're finding the need to spend more $$, you can always bolt the motor mods onto the car at a later time, and move up the money ladder to AI.

Also, as someone else mentioned, there are fellas that also run with the SCCA, in the ITE class. So you can run with two series if you like. But from what I've experienced, AIX and American Sedan are REALLY pricey to be competitive.

Originally posted by KwikistZ
You're damn right! It's all about the fun! That's why I wanna get into this. And I'ma build my own car cause I won't be racing till I get outta college, I just started. Headers aren't legal in CMC by the way. All this talking about racing makes me want to do it so bad:mad:

But headers are legal in AI, which is what I'm building my car for.

Building your own car can certainly be a fun project, but where the safety items are concerned, such as cage, window net, seat back brace, etc. make sure you get professional input so you do it right.